Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Mark Gatiss

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

This week Emily goes for a walk with Mark Gatiss and his Labrador, Bob. They talk about Mark’s childhood in the North East, his experience of coming out and the award-winning Sherlock. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oops, he's run off. Hang on. He's going to run to the pond. Mark's just gone to Chase Bob, who's gone to the pond. Bob, come here. That was good. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll with actor, writer, comedian, director. I could go on. But we have a podcast to do. So let's just say the endlessly talented phenomenon that is Mark Gatis. Mark met me on London's hamster teeth with his gorgeous Labrador Bob, who it's fair to say. say was a little speedier than my Shih Tzu Ray, a bit like the Lewis Hamilton to raise milk float. Mark, as you'd expect, is a fascinating and incredible person to go for a stroll with.

He told me all about his childhood growing up in the Northeast and his family dogs whiskey and brandy, his decision to go to drama college, which led to the utterly brilliant League of Gentleman. And don't worry, we also obviously discussed his collaboration with Stephen Moffat on the award-winning Sherlock. We chatted too about what makes Mark Tick as a person. how he sometimes struggles to say no, his experience of coming out, and also how he dealt with loss. I kind of expected Mark to be funny and charming,

but I guess I was really struck by what a kind, gentle person he seemed. But look, the man's got a Labrador. That was a bit of a spoiler alert. I adored my walk with Mark, and I really hope you do too. If so, please remember to rate, review and subscribe. I'll shut up now, and hand over to the man himself. Here's Mark.

And Bob. This is going to be an exciting walk. So what we usually do once we get past the Lido is let him off. Come on, Ray. And then he goes bananas. Look, you see, look at this, Mark. Bob, I must tell you, we'll move speedy. That's why we have to let Bob Sol sing openly.

Yes. And he has to do his own thing. Come on, Ray. You can follow behind me and Mark. Why Ray? I liked the idea of having... an old pub regular's name. I like Raymond. And then in a little,

I suppose there's a slight burst of sentiment because it's my late sister's name was Rachel and we called her Ray. And I thought it was a way for her kids to sort of, it's a nod to her without it feeling a bit over the top. I didn't want to give him her full name. It might be a bit weird.

It's a vexed issue though, isn't they? I mean, our old dog was called Bunsen, and that came about because when I was a kid, we had a West Island Terrier, and I remember, it's in 1973, I remember the preparation for getting a dog was so exciting. And I thought, well, we can call the dog, you know, Winston or something interesting.

And we got the dog, and of course my dad decided we call whiskey. And then a few years later, whiskey ran away whilst on heat and got up the duff by this rangy mongrel up the street called Shane and had a litter which all died except one and we kept the survivor and I thought now we can call the dog something interesting the dog was therefore called brandy and so we had whiskey and brandy for a while so I always said when I had a dog on my own I'd give it an interesting name like Bunsen and so that's what happened but when we got Bob He's with us today.

The naming process again of and it was my partner Ian's turn really but we went through all kinds of things we thought about plum bob and then I thought what are we doing and then weirdly as soon as he arrived he was just obviously Bob he's just a Bob

I have some questions for you read Bob but I've just realised not because you are possibly the world's greatest storyteller you've already told me this wonderful story about dogs and your history of them and I haven't even introduced you. Oh yeah.

So... We can re-edit this. This is Walking the Dog. Normally at this point, I would list the person's profession, all the things they did, the things that had made them celebrated and well-known, but we don't have two and a half hours to do that.

I'm with the very wonderful Mark Gauss I say Gators, that's right, isn't it? That's right. Does some people say Gattis? Yes. Those who are dead to me. That was very good because I was... What I usually have to do at this point is we have to go back and do it again.

So that's gone very well. It's a good start, Mark, isn't it? The good start. You know, the strange thing is, I find, is when people get a bit funny about it as if you're sort of saying, you know, people make... It's something like, you know, they've accidentally put... milking your tea and you go, all right. It's like it's my name. It's my fucking name. Therefore, I, therefore I would like it to be correct. I don't think it's too much to ask.

My dad's always been very hot on it. Strange thing happened. My uncle George emigrated to Australia in the 50s and he didn't come back. They lost touch and he didn't come back until 1980. And then it turned out that in order to avoid endlessly correcting, he had allowed himself and his family to be called Gattis and so my cousins out there in Australia are actually called Gattis and my dad was incensed at this crime against history. Bob! Bob seems ever so good natured Mark. He's adorable, there he is. He's a Labrador and therefore entirely made of good nature and he's a golden silliness. Is it called a golden Labrador or yellow Labrador? He's actually technically fox red. His mother was

much redder. We should say that noise is we bring someone along for the sound effects. He's sort of an out of what our character. It's Percy Edwards. You remember Percy Edwards used to do it in the old days. I was watching... On the radio plays or something. Yeah, I was watching something for the 70s of the day on YouTube.

There was this amazingly nostalgic moment where there was obviously supposed to be a cat or something outside the room. And I thought, that's Percy Edwards, because it used to be such a distinctive sound of him doing animals, And we all, as children, we all knew it wasn't real. And he was like a famous, what would you call him like, voiceover sound effects. Animal impersonator. Yeah, animal impersonator, yeah.

Those are the days. There was also that marvellous thing, which is now totally gone, where they used to get ladies to do the voices of children. Do you remember? It went on in the arches until about 2003. It used to give me the creep so much. Oh, mommy, I don't think, I don't think, I don't. I want to go to school today.

I was so disturbing. Oh, look at this. He's met a nice collie. This feels like the 70s, a Labradorna collie. I hope it's called Lady. They used to be, didn't they? Not anymore. They were always called Lady.

What were the boy dogs called? Shane. Genuinely Rex. I want to go back, because I've met the wonderful Bob. I want to. go back to the Gatis, not Gattis, childhood. Which was in the north-east. Is it Tony Bez constituency on here?

Yes, it was. It was one of the strangest... Sedgfield, is it? Sedgfield, yes. I was born in a maternity hospital called Hardwick Hall, which is now a stately home converted and now back into a hotel. It's quite a swanky place to have been born, although it wasn't at the time.

I've only been back once, and they'd just done it up. landscaped everything and I went up to the reception say I was born here can I have a wee and they let me so that was good but Sedgefield I was born there and then we we moved a place called Trimden my dad was a colliery engineer and then we moved he changed jobs and became our chief engineer in a mental hospital and we moved to his place called school Acliffe which is where my dad still is. Oh, okay. Is Ray particularly interested in other dogs or not? Because Bob has a strange...

Oh, Bob. Bob. He's really much more interested in the ball. But it's like people, isn't it? There's some dogs he has chemistry with and he just goes nuts. He has a friend called Whiskey. He's a sort of his girlfriend. And they go, they're crazy about each other.

And as soon as they see each other, something clicks, which is different. Yes. It's weird. Ray has that with Dennis, the Chihuahua. Yes. So your dad was, he was my family of miners, yeah. Yes. My dad and my uncle Harry were the first not to actually go down the pit.

I mean, they did. They went, he tells me still about these amazing things. He used to go down in his engineering capacity, but not actually digging. Where's my grandfather and his father before him? And all the way back, I think to the Bronze Age, they were proper miners. And as a result, I mean, you look at pictures of my granddad.

who died when he was 71. He looks about 100 and he died, you know, he had emphysema and all those terrible things. I've got wonderful pictures of him and my grandma on the beach, on summer holiday, and he's in a three-piece suit with a Homburg and his trousers turnips rolled up. That's his one concession to summer time. I find they're not oddly moving those pictures.

Do you? It's a totally different life. I mean, you know, it's not. untrue to say that you look at people and they had older faces. You can't believe that they look like. In fact, I was thinking this watching the Republican Party Convention and looking at people who claim to be 25 and seem to have the faces of 50 years.

That sometimes experience or evil in that case can actually age you. And my grandparents' generation were, they had it very rough. And, you know, oops, he's run off, hang on. He's going to run to the pond. We better get a spurt on. You go. Mark's just gone to chase Bob, who's gone to the pond. Bob, come here.

That was good. What happened? I forgot, this is where we usually put him on the lead before we approach the pod because he always does that. What did he do? Did he jump in? Yes, he's been in there. Oh, look. Anyway, where were we? So your dad, where did he work when you were growing up then?

Was he at the hospital? The psychiatric hospital opposite you? Yeah. And did your mum, what did she work or was she a homemaker? She worked at first she was, she looked after us and then she did work at the hospital for a bit because I used to go, I used to go over there quite a lot, well an awful lot, but she did work there for a while, but she was a secretary in a paint factory. factory for most of her working life. She hated, I remember, she hated it so much. She worked at police headquarters for a while in the 50s. I've got lovely pictures of her, again,

secretarial, but it was, it was all, it just sort of a different stage of her life about she used to, she used to talk, there was this man called Austin Stokko, who was the man she nearly married. He loomed large to my child. I used to think, because I used to imagine he was like a Russian prince, or something. Oh, Bob objected to that. What was that? We're going to go. Bob, is that genuinely a reaction to Austin Stoker?

I think I must have stood in... Because then Daddy wouldn't be here, would he? That's true. Yes, you see, he knows. Daddy might be a horrible daddy. And you had a brother and a sister? Brother and a sister, yes. My brother's three years older.

My sister was seven years older, so I was in an accident. I remember being told that. Did your parents tell you that? Many years later. My mum took pains to say it was a very happy accident, but I remember being very shocked. I assumed it was some grand plan. I think what I love about Bob is his constant enthusiasm.

Every day is great, isn't it? Well, you know, it's a dog's life. There is a lot to be learned from them because they're so, you know, they have a very simple view of things. It's just eat, sleep, poo, repeat. poo repeat. Yeah. I mean, that's essentially all of us, but...

But Bob enjoys it more. I think it's very interesting. People have... I don't think you have to be a dog person or a cat person. I like cats. But I don't genuinely think you can trust someone who doesn't like dogs. Mark, you know, I think the same. I think there's something wrong with them.

And I don't think the same... It doesn't have to be a clear distinction between dogs and cats, but if you meet someone who doesn't like dogs, there's definitely something missing, definitely. But I've always loved labs, and my partner Ian never had a dog. They were obsessed with getting a dog. They eventually, this is so funny,

my brother-in-law, Neil, started to drag a toilet roll, hold in a tube, inner tube. What do you call them? Like the cardboard tube with a bog roll on a piece of string. And then his mum said, I think we may be get you a pet.

They got a rabbit called Bluebell. but they were not allowed dogs. Ian's Man was very frightened of them. And this is the glory of dogs, because when we got Bunsen, Ian's mother was really frightened, even as a puppy, and then she became utterly obsessed with him.

And now is like, she's like a sort of, she had a damascene conversion. Like St Paul, she adores dogs. She does nothing but look at dog videos. And she loves Bob, and she adored Bunsen. Yeah, because you lost Lonson. Christmas before last, yes. Oh Mark, I'm really sorry. That must have been awful.

But you know, we made a conscious, difficult decision to get another one as a crossover. And although it felt, it was felt disloyalist because it's like planning, planning for the end. But it really worked. So we had Bob for about 18 months in Bunsen's declining years. And it really helped. It gave him a new lease of life. And then when Bunsen went, it was such a help. was it?

Was it? The Bob was there to come home to. Otherwise, it's just like the definition of an empty nest, you know? Yeah. It was really helpful. Honestly, it seems mercenary, but it's a very good idea. What kind of dog is that again, Mark, with the black mark on his eye? Is that like a...

In the water? Yeah, the one chasing his tail, that way. Oh, that? It's like a sort of large... In fact, it's exactly like bull's eye, isn't it? Bill Sykes. It's like a large terrier or something kind, I'm not sure. Yes, he is like bullseyes.

Was I? Best piece of dog acting in the world is in David Leans Oliver Twist when Bill's killed Nancy and the dog coweres. I dread to think what they were doing to it to make it, but it's incredible that. I've still got this bag of poo. There's nowhere to put it. That could be a separate podcast, carrying a bag of poo. Tell me, it was your family life? What sort of home was it? Do you know what you mean? Was it like a noisy extrovert home?

Would you say? Was there a lot of laughter? No, I would. Yes, yeah. I mean, it was very, I mean, I'm not going to overdo this, but it was very solidly working class. And the more, the more I think about it, the more I realize how solidly working class we were in terms. I think about this constantly whenever I'm asked questions about, you know, what would be your last meal or something. And I always say beans on toast. And I remember going on one of those Saturday morning kitchen things. In fact, it was Saturday morning kitchen.

And they were asking me about all these slightly rarefied foods. I just thought, God, I'm so basic. I really am so basic. I absolutely, I can't stand so many of those things. And I fall back on my childhood favorites all the time. I really do. I had a bacon and egg sandwich the other day. And I thought, do you know, this is probably the best thing in the world.

Literally bar nothing. It tastes like heaven. What could be nicer? So, yeah, I mean, that's how we grew up. My dad was quite formidable. I drew a picture of him the other day, and I put it online, and my old school friend from years ago,

I haven't seen for donkeys, tweeted me, saying, that's how I remember your dad. He was quite scary. And I thought, yes, he was. He's quite formidable. But a lovely man, just sort of quite short-tempered. And he worked incredibly hard. I suppose we were all slightly afraid of him

but it was a very happy house we had a great time my brother was very shy my sister was I think probably the most extroverts of us I would say but there was you know seven years is quite a long time when you're little yeah so I really looked up to Jill but she seemed I remember I have such

strong fond memories of certain things like she went to see she was obsessed with Bruce Lee. She went to see Enter the Dragon, which was an X, when she was 13, and I remember her getting dressed up to it. In my memory, she looks like Jody Foster at taxi driver. She was really dolled up to try and look older. And for some reason, I was sent to collector from the bus stop when she got back. I can remember that so well. It's literally walking up the road on my own. There's only, you know, 500 yards up the road, but to collect her from the bus when she came back And she was wearing this red coat with a fake fur collar.

So strange, I can see that now. And she was just thrilled because she'd got in. Well, it must have been blind to think she was 18. Yeah, I think you always remember. Moments like that seem so huge, don't they? It's your association with adulthood, isn't it? So any glimpse of something, it's exciting, but it's slightly forbidden. And therefore, of course you remember it because it's like, oh, my God,

it's like being allowed to stay up late. Yeah. You don't forget those. bits. So people always do tend to dwell understandably I suppose on the Mark Gatiss grew up opposite a psychiatric hospital etc etc but what I'm interested in is you being an observer which I imagine you were and are and that's been a big thing about your life. Have you always had that sort of I guess it's a Sherlockian trait in a way is that you go in a and don't just see the woman on the bench.

You see the shoes and you notice the details. The bag of poo. But you pick up nuance. Have you always been quite sort of empathetic and sensory, I suppose? I guess, I mean, I used to, you know, my party piece as a kid was doing impressions. And so I was very used to copying people's voices and mannerisms and stuff like that. But also, because I read Sherlock Holmes from a very early age, I was obsessed with that idea of being able to do it,

like all people are, I think, when they first read it. I remember going in the school bus and thinking, what can I deduce about these people? And it never seemed to work as easy as it, Karen Doyle. But, you know, legs of cigarette ash or mud on people's trousers and stuff like that. But it was the idea of it is so appealing. Stephen Moffat calls it an achievable superpower. And that's really, that's it, isn't it?

You sort of think, well, you can read Superman and think, that's never going to me, you sort of think maybe I could be Sherlock home. So yes, I mean, it's not, it was a combination between its observation and having an ear for it, I think. Yeah. That's what I, when I first encountered Alan Bennett and the reason it spoke to me so clearly was it felt like someone had been eavesdropping on my world. And I couldn't, same with Kez. I saw Kez at school.

It was like, why are they showing us this? It's just our bloody lives. It was like a bleak documentary, especially the bit with Brian Glover as the PE teacher. So it's that, it's really having a kind of, yeah, sort of sympathy for, and an ear for dialogue and for characteristics, I suppose. And well, let's sit on that benchmark. Exhausted. I think we should for a minute. Come on.

It's a hill, it's Parliament Hill. So were you aware of being funny, Mark, when you were a kid, making people laugh? Oh yes. I guess it was a sort of... I mean, the absolute cliché is a sort of bullying avoidance tactic. Not that I was bullied, but it was just a good way of getting on with people or trying to get on with people. You know, I always loved funny people and funny actors and they were all my heroes were, you know. know, comics and comic teams like Python and Not the Nightfoot News and Leonard Rossiter, Ronnie Barker, love Ronnie Barker. So, uh...

What is it on this one, Mark? Yes. Mark's so cooperative. I'm very bad at saying no. Are you? Yeah. Here we are. Are you really, Mark? Here we are moving benches. Do you confront people, Mark? No, I'm terrible. I'm better than I was, much better than I was, but it's, again, there's an Alan Bennett line which it struck me so profoundly. I had to sort of put the book down and sort of take a moment. It's in his, it's in his diaries in writing home. And sometime in the 60s, I think it was Richard Avedan, the great photographer, took some pictures of him in Regents Park and persuaded him to climb up a tree and sit under an umbrella like an owl. It's a great picture.

But Avidin's assistant said to Alan, you're a game, aren't you? And he wrote in his diary, I'm not at all. It's just I would do anything other than be thought difficult. And I remember, I put the book down and thought, oh God, that's me. Because you know, it's true. Rather than, I hate, I hate badly behaved people so much that the idea that anyone might think I was being a bit off or snotty, I go the other way and I'm too accommodating. When I should actually just say, sorry, I'm not doing that.

I'm much better than I was. But I'm terrible at saying now. Really? Not to projects, not to any other shit, you know, but just like, I don't want to let people down. And then you end up getting in a sort of, you get in a slight sort of fix because you over commit or you double book yourself. And it's like, and actually just in the end, if you just say, no, I'm not, sorry,

I'm not doing that. It just goes away. It takes years to learn that. Well, it's that thing of, I think, I never in my whole life said, I don't want to go to something. I would say, oh yeah, that sounds great. And then I'd spend two weeks thinking, right, now I need to send the next text saying, I'm not sure, I think I might be working.

But I'll let you know, because I'd worked out that three or four sort of stages of no were better than a cold hardener. But it's not. But it's not, is it? No. And before all this, before at the end of the world, I was fond of saying that my very favourite thing had become when something was cancelled. It was so true. It was like that unexpected... What? Oh no! Oh, brilliant! Don't have to go out. Don't have to leave the house.

I've changed my mind about that now because we can't do anything but that was definitely becoming my default thing. Would you say you were quite insular as a child? I'm afraid I'm a terrible cliché. I'm actually very shy person who shows off on stage and things. That's true that. I mean I'm not... I still have sort of sometimes slight social anxiety. I'm very gregarious and I love people. I love meeting people.

I love company. But I'm also weirdly shy. Again, I quite like to just not do things. Yeah. And I slightly catastrophes increasingly about something. And then you just think actually it's absolutely fine. I'm you academic, not? No, no.

No. I've got a very good memory or I used to have. and I'm very good on certain things. Terrible at maths. I can't drive. Really hopeless at a lot of things. I do sometimes people, it's funny and they sort of say, is there anything you can't do?

And I'm going, how long have you got? It's an extraordinary assumption. I'm, very lucky. I do basically the two things I always wanted to do, which is to act and to write. And that's my job. So everything else, is a bonus but no not academic.

And that started essentially when you went to university, didn't it? I mean, in terms of, that's when you met Reese and Steve and Jeremy at this acting college. It was at a drama college in sort of Yorkshire? Yes, it's called Breton Hall. It was a Leeds University College like a separate campus. And they did, well, it was like it was like fame. We like to think of it.

But they did two acting courses, one which was basically for Swedish. Hard times meet Spain. Mr Gradgrind, firm costs and ranes that paid. Sweet. And they did theatre arts, which was meant to be like a professional acting course, and dramatic arts which was like TIE. Yeah. And Steve and I'm in the same year on theatre arts and then reaches the year below.

and then Jeremy was actually at Leeds University doing English and philosophy. I met him about a year in. That's how it all started. But I mean it was a kind of, you know, it was a pipe, my dream was to obviously be a working actor. And I used to say, you know, what I'd love to do is to, is to sort of get quite well known for something, which would then be a springboard to other stuff.

And that's kind of what happened. Did you tell your parents and what would their attitude have been? If you'd have said, I want to be an actor to your teachers, let's say, or to your parents or people you were growing up with, did that seem, yeah, why not? You know, was that the attitude? They were very, they weren't, you know, it wasn't sort of hard times, they were very supportive. They just didn't think it was feasible. And then, you know, they did the classic thing of, well, you need to have something to fall back on. You need a proper job and you could maybe do this in your spare time.

Little did they know that Sherlock would be your thing to fall back on. It's easy to forget how, you know, how much good fortune and luck and turning up does for you. Because I've got lots of friends, very talented friends who've never had the breaks and it's not fair, but that's the way it goes, you know. And I mean, it's easy to forget how completely, you know, how completely. unachievably did feel. I remember I did not long after I left I did my first TV job which was not long after you left drama school yes that's not true it's about two years after and I did this I got my first TV job which was a thing called Harry with Michael Elthick was a sort of follow up to Boone but it was filmed and set in Darlington which is

near basically where I'm from and they were advertising for Darlington born or based actors only and I thought well this is a good chance so I wrote from my parents address got an audition got the part and I had to go we had to go back home to film this and then the same casting director Susie Bruffin got me in for a Catherine Cookson and I got that and I thought I'm on and then and then I didn't work for like two years because that's how it goes but I remember distinctly sitting in a pub in Islington and they were showing this is about the year after they were showing the Catherine Cooker repeating the Catherine Cookson and I thought

at least that means I've been on the telly this year. And it was a really big thing. It was like, no, if I can keep it, even with repeats, if I'm just on the telly, then some progress is being made. Yeah. I remember once very vividly when I was living in Leeds, just after I've left college, and I needed a job.

And I went on this co-calling thing. And it was like Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. There was this awful man who gave us, this talk about how we had to go in there and basically hit the phones hard and all this stuff. But I remember a tremendous sense of liberation because I thought as soon as he stopped talking, I'm getting the bus home. And it wasn't because I knew I was going to walk into something amazing and I think like that. I just thought, and he stopped talking and I took into one sign and said, can I have a word? I said, I am completely out of my depth. I couldn't do this in a million years

and I've got to go. And I remember sitting on the bus unemployed but happy because I thought, well, I can't do that sort of shit. And I really don't know what else. I suppose I probably would have drifted into crime. Or I suppose something, you know, I worked for a while for a newspaper as a film reviewer. And I worked in a kid's nursery in Leeds. I just had no idea what else I could do. I just needed to do something that didn't involve maths.

And wouldn't sort of brutalize me. So with the League of Gentlemen, Mark, yes. Bob. Did you sense that sort of alchemy, you know, that happens when you get in a room with someone and you think, oh, there's a connection of sort of spirits here and it's a bit like-minded and we're all on the same page? Oh, yes, but you know, then everyone thinks that about all the,

every band they enjoyed. This is good, isn't it? I mean, I really did think we had something. And, but that was no guarantee it was going to happen or work at all. And, you know, we really, put a lot of effort into doing those first live shows to try and prove it. And then when you get that first, I think back to those, some of those sort of, it was a very heady time, of course it is.

You always think about that. But we had a great laugh, but also we did work very hard. And when we got the first bites of like radio producers or something coming, it was a guy called Humphrey Barclay, who was a legendary figure, he came to see our show at the Canal Cafe Theatre. and you know he was very encouraging but but then at the same time he said obviously you need at least two girls the sketches are too long they're too dark and and you know it's easy in retrospect to think well of course how could they not know you know this is the thing that the thing that made it

particular is is is not those things but but we had to we had to be very strong and really sort of thing well no this is this is what we're doing and i think that's the only one way you can make you can you can make your own particular vision work and cut through is is to your guns like that we did make it a very not exactly a sort of pact it wasn't like standby me but we we decided we knew a lot of other comics and comic actors and we we decided we weren't going to get distracted we weren't if someone said you know here's your own show or something to what as if that would have to one of us. We would stick to the plan.

Yeah. And I think that's really, really worked for us. We knew some people who'd, you know, they had the first flush of, they had a TV pilot, and then two of them went off and did a separate thing. And it just split the focus so much.

They never quite got into the public consciousness. So we were very aware of keeping to the plan. And then you were quite as well, almost forensic about, creating Royston Vasey as a place, weren't you? I love the idea of you almost mapping it out. Yeah, we did. I mean, that was great fun, but we all had such a shared experience of the north that we spent, you know, a long time, literally mapping out, naming like the estate, the new estate and, you know, there was, I remember, the thing I remember the best,

there was somewhere there was a big concrete tube full of wet pornography. And all those things we remember from playing out, you know. And it was very real to us, I suppose. And actually, because the whole idea was to come up with a vehicle to contain the characters, which up until that point, up until the radio show, had been just only vaguely connected, then it is like sort of populating a board game or something. You sort of map it out and think, right, this is where they would live. this is where that would be

and it was great fun doing that. It would change credibility I think that show. You know, it just always felt like a sort of quite an art house piece in a way to me. I guess. I mean, you know, there's nothing wrong with being popular and we were very popular.

I tell you an interesting thing I went tour for the first time. Oh yeah. And the first tour was an enormous, like seven months long, it was enormous. And I remember our promoter Phil McIntyre saying to us that he said, this strange thing happens. He used to represent Halen Pace. And in their heyday, their Sunday night

show got like 12, 13 million viewers. But he said no one would come out and see them. He toured them. It wasn't that kind of show. Whereas our show, which at best got like three or four million, but it was a cult show and people would come. I've always remembered that. It's a strange sort of, you know, they don't necessarily translate in the same way. Mass popular. popularity does not equal. People become sort of obsessed or really into your thing, you know. And we did, we did have catchphrases, but we weren't trying to be conscious about them. I'm old enough to remember when Larry Grayson took over the Generation Game. And of course, Brucey had, he just, he just minted them every week.

He was amazing at catch raisers. And they tried to give Larry Grayson some new catchphrases. Oh, the muckingere. No, but they were his. They were real. The original. They were real. They gave him one at the end of the conveyor belt where he had to say,

turned to camera and say, what a lot she's got. And it didn't work. And they dropped it after about three weeks because it just wasn't working. I thought, well, if you try and force it on people, they won't have it. League just opened up. I love it. I sound like an old actor saying league. I mean, league love.

I did the dream in 37. But that just meant you could. do pretty much anything you wanted presumably really. No, and this continues to this day. These things just don't happen. And I remember a wonderful interview with Ear MacDiam, someone said, what would you say, what advice would you give to your 16 year old self?

And he said that one thing does not necessarily need to another. So true. Yeah, you're right actually. Of course, it was amazing. We had incredible opportunities, but we weren't suddenly given carte blanche to do anything we like. it continues to this day. You're only as good as your last success. And even then, sometimes you have to remind people that it was a success. You do obviously get a sympathetic ear, but you have to, you know, you don't just walk into these things. Making Sherlock, for instance, was, the actual,

the commission was the most amazingly straightforward thing I'll ever, ever happen to me. Modern Sherlock Holmes, yes, that's how it went. But the actual, process of of getting everyone to agree on the format on the casting and everything was as was as difficult as anything ever is and then of course in retrospect it all looks very straightforward because it looks like the natural order of things but that's why you once if you have a proven hit they tend to leave you alone more because it's obviously working yeah whereas at the initial stage nobody knows nobody knows anything yeah as William Goldman why as he said and so the things that look obvious are

the time but like really risky or is that the right way to go? I'm sure what Holmes is was risky for you and Stephen Moffitt to take that on. You just have to make it for yourself. If you if you start focus grouping things or second guessing, then then you've not done you've lost haven't you? So you have to we thought the show was very good but we had no idea it was going to become this international phenomenon and one of the frustrating things was a valuable lesson in how these things work. So we made what was essentially a pilot, although it wasn't meant to be a pilot. We got the last bit of money for the year, because the whole thing happened quite late,

to make what was planned to be the first hour-long episode of a six-part hour-long, six-hour series. And that became the pilot. And then the BBC agreed to a series if we did them as 90-minute episodes because Wallander, which they just done had been a big success in that slot. So we said yes. But as a result, the press decided that the pilot had been a disaster. And it was, I mean, eventually I insisted that we put it on the DVD because I wanted people to see that it was very good, but it was just, we just remade it because we had to change the format and the director wasn't available, so we got someone else and all these. But, I mean, it's a lesson in how the press can instantaneously distort.

something and you have no right of reply pre-twitter you have nothing yeah it just becomes the narrative and because it suits it's obviously a juicy story yeah it's like this fucking thing with roule britannia now the way that that has become yes you know Johnson slides out of his hole to have an opinion about that but not about a levels or 45,000 dead but he can have a fucking opinion on rule britannia which they can't sing because there aren't any people in the hall and people believe it. That's the horrific thing. It's so, it's deadly.

It really is deadly. The extent I think to which this country has become and is increasingly going to become a kind of a sort of Disneyland version of itself. It's just boiled down to red buses and bobbies on the beat and Downton kind of cliches of what we are and what we used to be, you know. It's awful.

I suppose it. It's Rebecca Frant. Everybody, ladies and gentlemen, it's Rebecca Frund. We're doing a podcast. This is like a celebrity. Rebecca. Hello. Hi. We can't shake hands.

Rebecca, I'm going to make you come on now. Look, you're next. You can just carry on. This is Bob. We're on over the relay. Look at Bob. This is Raymond. I'm afraid he's too wimpy to walk. You're going to have a little walk now, Ray.

He's shamed himself. I mean, they both are. They're all wonderful. No, but Bob's a proper dog. How are you? Surviving. Mad, isn't it? Yes.

Yeah. But you don't need to hear about this. Take care. See, I'll drop you a line. Bye. Rebecca, nice to see you. Bye. There you are.

Next one. Easy. lined up. Well done. That could be like a relay in future. She's ever so nice. She's a wonderful man. So with Sherlock, yeah, people often focus on the fact that how you and Stephen have presented him, I suppose, which I personally love, is just that he's sort of other in a good way, in a way that I think is celebrated, that he's sort of not neurotypical.

And I know this sounds weird, but I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was older. And I remember I'd watched Sherlock before. And I'm sure loads of people felt this. I remember thinking, oh, I do that. I'm sure everyone felt that watching it. I can't shake hands with someone. I get distracted and then I hyperfocus and I miss appointments because I'm thinking about the shoes someone's got.

And I thought, oh, well, okay, this is quite cool to be like this. I suppose that wasn't your idea to set out to make. No, because you're not, I mean, the thing is, it's all in Conan Doyle. It's like you can diagnose. in whatever way you want, I think. But the point is, clearly, Doyle, who was a practicing GP,

an ophthalmic expert, but actually, you know, at a very, very clever man, he knew people, perhaps it was even in himself, who suffered from some kind of mania. That's what Holmes does. Yeah. And, you know, my favourite bit as a child, but when Sherlock would just sit on the sofa

for three days in his dressing counter and not moved, not eat and it's clearly based on real it's a real condition it's not specifically anything i think it's just he's he's very he's all brain that's what he says he his body's just basically an engine as just a appendage to his brain all he cares about is thinking and problems and so within that you know there's a range there's a spectrum of of different conditions that covers isn't it and but especially i think the highs and lows the sorts of bipolar aspect of it That's really familiar. And it's all on the page. It's not, so you don't, we didn't have to

set out sort of saying, oh, we're going to make this Sherlock Holmes bipolar or, or, um, different condition, yeah. A different condition in that way because it's, it's too limiting actually as well. Obviously, you know, he's a genius. He's particular and therefore that's what makes him special. But actually, I mean, and without having to make it into a cause, the idea that then that could be something you could celebrate is rather lovely. And also, you think about, At last a bin. When you think about representation

or the things that you wanted to see as a kid which you didn't see, then it's marvellous if people can look at that and say, oh, that's me or that's cool. Suddenly I'm cool. It's like seeing someone with glasses on. It used to be. For me, it was like,

it doesn't have to be a direct correlation. You don't say, oh, that's, I'm like, I'm exactly like that. And therefore, you can just read into it different things about otherness or not being conventional in some way. Everybody, I think, looks for those things when they're growing up. Did you feel, as a gay man, did you feel that growing up? Did you feel different? Yes.

But it's a strict, this is a really interesting thing this, because I, I sought out any kind of representation on the, telly. I mean, I've got photographic memories of certain play for today, plays for today, which had a vaguely gay theme, because I would just, you know, it was just like, it's like someone just suddenly opening a little secret door into something and then slamming it shut. I remember some of those things so well. But then weirdly, equally, I didn't feel antipathy towards Larry Grayson or John Inman or people, or Dillon. Emory for taking the piss out of it. It was, it was, but then you know, that's obviously because it wasn't used as a bullying tool, which it might have been for some, but it's just

something, I was talking to Simon Callow a few months ago because I watched this really good documentary about Larry Grayson and Simon was a, you know, he was, he was in gay sweatshop and those early gay theatre groups and I was saying how, I'm brilliant Larry Grayson, was an incredibly funny man. And, and Simon said, you see, you see, the thing is I can only think of him as the enemy. And I was very struck by that, that, you know, generationally, it can mean something, they were, what they were trying to do was absolutely fight that thing. And actually, interestingly, it sort of, in a way, still goes on because you might think

that having Craig Revel Hallward and Bruno Tulli only on strictly mainstream Saturday night is in some ways this wonderful advance because there's two very over. openly gay men on mainstream telly. But I was saying this to a friend a few years ago and he said, but don't you think they're kind of like in the same sort of inman, Grayson way they've become like pet gaze? And I thought, you know, there is something to be said for that. That it's a sort of, there's something sort of tamed and neutered about them.

Yeah, it's the the camp friend in the Disney film, you know, who doesn't have a sex life. Yes, yes. You know, you must never allude to the sex. And did you come out to your parents, Mark? Did you just tell them? Was that easy to do? It happened.

I was about 20, I think. It was a lot later than I planned, but you know, you never want to actually do it. He would sit there and sort of mow over it. I could do it now, I could do it now. And then it was one night I was home from college, I think, and my mom just suddenly, after tea, said, you've got a lot of friends who are girls. you don't see to be interested. Are you not interested in girls? And it was like, that was it.

And so we had a big talk and then my dad was in the front row and she said, I said, I better go and tell your daddy. She said, no, I'll kill him. So I didn't. And then I went back and I was on the phone to her about a week later. And she said, I remember this so well, she said something like, oh, your uncle Jack came around. We've had snow. I told you dad. She just dropped it in. So I was sort of, I was denied my moment, but of course was hugely relieved. But then in a funny way, I then had to sort of do it all again because it had been mentioned and then shot in a draw. And I thought, well, that's not really coming out then if it's, is it? If it's just sort of mentioned once and then we never talk about.

My sister came out in hives. She had not because she was just shocked and it reached she had a physical reaction to it. It was extraordinary. My brother had always known and but it was fine and actually I don't have much patience with people who say that coming out isn't the thing it used to be because everyone's experience is different and you know it just you might think that everyone in a age of social media has incredibly supportive friends and family. and it's not the case. You know, there are still plenty of people who were chucked out

or never spoken to again. Particularly, I think increasingly, what you're aware of is from people from a different culture or a religious background whose parents simply find it unacceptable. That was something that didn't impinge in our consciousness

in the same way before. So it's still very much not a straightforward process. So Mark, you're obviously you're a writer, your creator, you're an actor, you're everything. And you often get called Renaissance Man because you, and I know sometimes I've seen you react to that and go, well, I don't know how I feel about that. I say, so is Chesire Borgia. That's why I aspire to be. It's sometimes a lack of focus. But I'm just very interested in lots of things. And I find it, well, I find it, well, One of the great joys of my career, I can say that now,

has been the wonderful opportunities I've been offered. And then someone says, BBC Bristol, say, do you want to do a three-part landmark series about the history of horror films? I'm going to go, yes, I would. And things like that have just been wonderful. And actually what I've done, increasingly, I've done two documentaries about artists,

John Inman and John Minton and Aubrey Beardsley. And that again has been fabulous. I mean, they're just passion projects. And actually to talk about stuff like that is such a privilege. It's, you know, it's just so interesting. And I love it. You meet amazing people, sometimes go to amazing places and it's not, but it's kind of got something.

I think it's got meat, it's got heart to it. And it's about something. It's not just, you know, going abroad for the sake of it or anything like that. So your 16-year-old boyhood self with Doctor Who and I suppose with Sherlock, that's a lovely gift you gave that boy. My eight-year-old self, I would say. Eight, I mean, age, age's the prime age. But absolutely. No, I mean, I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd actually get to write for Doctor Who.

Because it came off the air, I thought that was it. And Sherlock Holmes similarly is a boyhood passion. You know, you just, who knows these things are going to happen. So, yeah, it is. I mean, that's what I've said this a lot, you know, if I really could go back in time and show my eight-year-old self this, it would blow his head. It's just amazing.

And I think the thing that excites me, though, which wouldn't have excited me then, I think, because children are inherently more conservative, is the idea of contributing to these things in a sort of ongoing way. It's not just about bringing back your old favourites. It's about trying to push the envelope so you're constantly doing new stuff. And I say this all the time. As a desperately nostalgic child, even when it's too young to be,

the thing is you can't create nostalgia without creating new things. And I do get very impatient sometimes with people who just, they just, and this is back to where we are with the state of this country, is there never was a golden age in any respect. There were some things were good, some things were bad. It's always the same way. But you can't get back to that happy feeling, that happy place, just by slavishly repeating things.

If you don't push forward, you're dead. Barry Cryer, one of the greatest comic minds this country has ever produced. One of the things I absolutely love about Barry is that he's never, looks back, you know, he's written, he wrote gags for Frankie Howard, he's worked with all the giants, but he's constantly fascinated by anything new. And it keeps him young and it keeps the whole idea young, you know, you know, so I think what we did with Sherlock was was trying to restore it to its factory settings, as it were, by taking away the thing that was getting in, getting in the way and getting back to this idea of it basically being a sort of odd

couple flat share and people responded to it because they saw it new and in fact one of the great joys was people going oh my god I didn't realize that was from the stories and you go yeah it's all there you just no one's told this story for a long time you know mark tell me how you met your husband Ian 20 years now we met in a bank heist he was the driver I was the sort of you know front man um we met online uh oh you were an early doctor oh very early doctor yes before it was before it was basically what everyone does now very strange thing we didn't tell our parents for our families for donkeys because it was still very much infradig of course now it's literally what everybody does because of

obviously it's the only sensible thing to do i think i might try and find someone i have something in common with rather than randomly hoping i'm the love of my life in a sleazy bar. You work hard, don't you? You've got a strong work ethic. I do work hard. It's good though. It's good for you.

What else is there to do? I think sometimes you... I'm getting a lot better at relaxing. Are you? Just reading a wonderful new book about Agatha Christie and her work rate in the 30s is so astonishing. It's astonishing.

What she's is. should have done actually was sat on some of these books and then released them later. She often wrote four books a year, four of the, you know, the very best you ever did. It's amazing, actually. But at the same time, it's also really good to take long walks and just lie down and think about other stuff and do nothing. Do you find Bob good for that? Oh yeah. I mean again, one of the great joys of... Look at that, no. Is that Akita? Akita. Akeet. No, a husky. Oh, Husky. She needs a halty light bulb because that dog is pulling badly.

You know, there's a lot of those huskies since Game of Thrones, which, I mean, you meant you, you come out with a sentence and it turns out there's a 90% chance Mark was in it, whatever you mentioned. I don't know about that. I saw someone on Twitter the other day saying they were debating. There's a new version of Old Creatures Great and Small and Sam West is playing Seagfried and someone had said, I wish that was Mark Gators I mean Simon wonderful I literally saw him the other day and he's perfect for Seedfried but someone replied

I like them both but I think Mark's in everything I thought I'm really not I don't think I haven't been on the telly for about I wouldn't describe you as in everything at all I would describe you as in everything good oh that's good Mark you I've only ever heard nice things about you I have to tell you you've never

seem to have left a sense of who you are. You seem quite authentic. Well I hope so. My motto is work hard, don't be a c. And I don't think you can say fairer than that. But there are, and most people are, most people are. I think so. Yeah, definitely. There aren't very many and you know when you see them. But also, it's just, it's so exhausting. I mean, the, the effort that some people must put into being not Nice. And you know, I do think, I used to think it's about Michael Jackson. I used to think he sometimes wake up having had so many procedures on his face and just think, I wish I'd never started this. And I sometimes think that about really nasty people.

Yeah. It must be so exhausting that they come home and close the door behind them and think, oh God. Unless they're visited by three spirits. Which is the way out. Which, actually, such a pro-mart, because, like, That brings us a Christmas carrie which you have been writing and I was really dying to see. Next Christmas now. And it's going to be next Christmas is it? Touch wood. I mean, who knows?

We're all, I mean, let's sit here. The thing I'm worried about is that there seems to be a collective idea that once we get to New Year's Eve, everything's going to be all right. The pandemic does not respect dates. Sit, come on. I thought you're doing that to me, Mom. I thought, oh, he's got a bit Donald Trump. Come on. Bob, get up. Get up here. Come on, you idiot. Bob, Bob.

Sit on here. Bob, come on, darling. Right, there we go. Oh my God, shh, shh, darling. Sit. I thought that thing you did to start for a stand up to cancer was so incredible Mark. Described how you lost your mum to cancer and then your sister. And I just think it was amazing that you were.

you did that. Well, you know, the strange thing about those things is you kind of, what, you want to do something and there's nothing much you could do apart from contribute or donate. So talking about it was a way of doing that, I guess. And then I suppose the surprise is, if you found this, but you sort of end up just spilling your guts. I mean, I don't know quite what I thought I'd say, but I just said it all. And it was very cathartic. It was, I mean, I suppose that's the thing that you live with is and there is. And I do think about this, the way that you end up coping. But the danger is you stop talking about them.

Yeah. And it's really good. I really, it was very catholicity. And I enjoyed, I enjoyed coming out of it the other end. I felt much better. Because the danger is you do, you know, and it goes back to what my, my dad sort of attitude was much more about. compartmentalizing things and shutting them away and it's not good for you you

know you need to talk about it not obviously not all the time because you can't live in the past you can't be internally modeling but it's really important it's like looking at pictures or watching old films or something like you just actually do mention them yeah rather than just as a sort of casual glance at a picture every now and then amazingly here is Ian Bob went straight to Ian. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Do you want to take him and we'll finish off? Bob's going off with Ian now. What does that mean for Bob Ian? Does that mean he's going to get treats? No. I've got them. I don't have any on me.

Is Ian a good cop or bad cop? Out of you two, who's strict dad and who's... No, we're not straight. Well, it's kind of equal, isn't it? Yeah. He's kind of equal with his affection. When we're doing yoga in the morning, I don't Mark said this,

but he'll kind of come and lie on each of us in turn. He doesn't have a favourite. That's just because he wants to be fed. We've started this in lockdown, yoga with Adrian, because it was important to give some structure to be in tiny nebulous days. But we're keeping it up. It's good for you.

So nice to meet you. Bye, Bob. Go on. To go back to what you were saying earlier, I totally agree with you. and I find exactly like you, just now it gets easier because it's been a while for me. I don't know how long it's been for you, but I lost my sister, I guess it was 2012, so it was about eight years ago.

10 years? Yeah, 10 years, yeah. And you feel, oh, yours was 10 years, you're saying, yeah. So similar. And I always, there are ways people describe it, aren't they? Like people say you, you dance again, but you've got a slight limp and all this kind of stuff. And I like to think, I remember her and I remember my mum, but I remember the funny bits more now.

You find this actually wasn't long after my mum had died, but one of the things we loved watching when I was a kid was Lily, the Lily Langtree story with Francesca Arnis. And it came out on DVD and I was in the shop. And I just thought, oh, I must get that for, I remember stopping myself and thinking, oh my God. It was just such a natural thing to think, you know. And it still happens. You just trip yourself up, don't you?

But then it's increasingly in a sort of warm way, you kind of... But I think it's very important to not just steam roller on and think that's over, that's gone. Because you're just then denying their existence. And also you want to allow yourself a good cry sometimes. Or not even that, or a good laugh, you know, just to... I've said this before, but the week my mum, when my mum was dying, we all, it was one of the closest, times we've ever had as a family, we sat around the bed, swapping stories, and we'd take it in terms to make sandwiches and cups of tea, and it was great fun. And we just sort of laughed over her,

you know, and talked to her. And it was really important. And when she went, it was a real wrench about that as well. There was like a moment that just popped, went. And I think that's pretty good for people. But as you said, it's a club that everyone eventually joins. And if people don't understand it, it's because they haven't had the misfortune to join it yet. But they'll go through it because everybody does. And again, everyone treats reaction a different way, I suppose. You find yourself missing odd little things, or you have some very strong pang of memory or some fuzzy little thing.

It joins the dots, and you go, oh gosh, remember that? And I was, I mean, my dad recently, and, you know, he's got early stage dementia and he's actually fine, but it's much easier to talk to him about the past. And with some of which you remember is in extraordinary clarity. And it's really really rather nice because it's not, you're not trying to piece something together. You're actually talking about very specific memories. And it's amazingly helpful to talk about childhood holidays and which suddenly. spring into life like that, you know, because there's particular things which anchor you, I guess. Is your dad conscious, do you think, of the losses, so he's aware of it?

Yeah, my brother, who lives only a mile away so he sees him every day. He said he's occasionally forgotten. I mean, I presume it'll get worse. But at the moment, no, he's very aware. and he talks about them in the past but he definitely has forgotten a couple of times but then that's the way it goes it's a sort of strange roller coaster

of he gets very frustrated with himself sometimes people would say to me oh I'm so lucky that hasn't happened to me and I you know especially with my sister because it does feel a bit odd it's life interrupted as well yeah and she had kids

And I would say, well, I'm Christmas future, really. Christmas yet to come. I hate to be pedante, but it's Christmas yet to come. No, absolutely. Anyone was going to correct me. And that's a terrible thing to say, but it's true. And also, I think, I thought there's a lot, oh, my sister died. And then, unfortunately, terribly, her husband died two years later.

of a stroke. And so my nephews were orphaned and it's an extraordinary Dickensian, well, enough, Dickensian sort of situation, but I remember thinking very strongly at the time that if you reach, my dad's nearly 90, if you reach that age, you're still going and you've veiled, you've got your wits, that's a real blessing. The real, the really outrageous thing is people going in their 50s and stuff or younger. It's just not fair. Otherwise, you're going, you know you can't complain it's a that's in a great lifespan a lot of good times a lot of amazing things to have but it's the interruption as you say that's that feels so unfair but i do think i suppose this is a good as place as any to end it because you need to go and see that nice

friend and i think um there's stuff that you've done throughout your career whether you're acting or writing or creating i love the fact that you explore that side of um humanity and life sometimes it is dark and life is dark and I believe in order to appreciate the light you have to have that as well I don't think you can have one without the other personally I agree do you bittersweet that's what it's all about it's it's it's not it's not even a sort of mission statement that's what life's like and sometimes I think those kind of it's it weirdly it's a weird thing to say it's one of the great triumphs of latter-day Disney is they have finally embraced that. From being

genuinely the creators of Pollyanna, from being this sort of outrageously saccharine white picket fence kind of machine, they have properly embraced wonderful films like Inside Out, you know, or Coca, have you seen Coco? No, I need to see that.

It's a film about death. It's a children's film about death. Oh, I love it. And incredibly celebratory, but that's what it's about. And, you know, that has to be what all good stuff is about, I think. It's both things at the same time, because that's what life is. And I love, all of my favourite things have aspects of that.

They have pathos and broad humour. They have light and shade, because, you know, it's also like the false distinction between gritty drama and comedy. You know, gritty drama tends to win the big bafters, because it's like unremittingly bleak, the best of, is bleak and silly at the same time. because that's what happens. Mark, you said at the beginning, or at some point during our chat,

that you found it hard to say no and you, and I can see that. And I don't want to be responsible for you being nice and sitting here when you've got your lovely husband and your nice friend and they need you now because I've had my time with you. I've loved meeting you. We can't hug, but can we elbow. You can? It's all we can do these days.

Can you give Ray a story? Ray, however, can get it all. Ray gets all the affection. Yes. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.