Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Mark Radcliffe (Part One)

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Join Emily and Raymond for a stroll in London’s Regent’s Park with legendary broadcaster Mark Radcliffe. We met Mark with his gorgeous cavapoo - Arlo (who is a very good boy with a passion for squirrel chasing…) and we discussed his long history with dogs - including a black Labrador called Sabbath (best name ever!) Mark started his broadcasting career in local radio in Manchester - and has since built a cult following as a presenter on the BBC. We chatted about how a career in radio came as a bit of a surprise for Mark, how he feels he has become more introverted through time and how he feels about his short-lived stint as the co-host of the Radio 1 breakfast show with Marc Riley. Mark’s brilliant book Et Tu Cavapoo: A Dog’s Life In Rome - which follows Mark’s three-month sojourn in Rome - told through both Mark and Arlo’s eyes! You can get your copy here!You can listen to Radcliffe and Maconie on BBC Radio 6 Music on Saturday and Sundays from 8-10am and The Folk Show on BBC Radio 2 on Wednesdays at 9pmYou can buy tickets for An Audience With Mark and Lard at http://markandlard.com/ Follow @themarkrad on X Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What do you think is going to happen when you get your golden retriever to the Sistine Chapel? You know, you're going to leave an offering to the almighty that it wouldn't appreciate. This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I went for a stroll with legendary radio presenter Mark Radcliffe and his adorable Kavapapu, Arlo. Mark first became known for his hugely popular radio partnership with Mark Riley at Radio One, hosting the Mark and Large show. They also had a brief stint on the Radio One Breakfast show, which was cut short as much. Mark rather hilariously puts it due to tumbling ratings.

And to be honest, that kind of sums up what I loved about Mark. He's just so unfailingly honest and authentic. He has, of course, gone on to become one of the most respected and loved presenters in radio. He currently hosts the weekend breakfast show with Stuart McConey on Six Music and the Folk Show on Radio 2. And he's also, I can exclusively reveal, a brilliant writer because he's just published a wonderful book called Et2 Cavapoo. which is a really funny and also fascinating account of a three-month trip he and his wife Bella took, with Arlo, of course, to the city of Rome. So if like me you love travel and you're a fan of dogs, then you'll definitely be a fan of Et2 Cavapu.

So do grab your copy now. I genuinely adored Mark. He's hilarious company, but he's also not afraid to open up and share his thoughts and feelings. I was particularly moved to hear him talk about the cancer diagnosis he had a few years. back, which fortunately he was successfully treated for. But it was very powerful hearing how it had really given him a newfound appreciation for life. Mark and Arlo were just such a joyful pair to spend time with. I know you're going to love this one. So I'll stop talking now and hand over to the man himself. Here's Mark and Arlo and Ray Ray. Right, Raymond, do you want to follow Arlo and Mark?

I feel like Arlo knows more what he's doing because he's travelled around Rome, Mark, he's an international cosmopolitan man of the world. He is, but I think what I love about dogs is they live entirely in the now, don't they? They don't have a big picture. And that was in fact the sort of root of the book, really, when it was walking around Rome, because me and my wife Bella went for three months, and we walked everywhere. And I was walking past these amazing sort of ruins and remains and chunks of hidden. history, but I'm thinking to him, eight inches off the ground, it looks like a pile of stones.

And so he was saying, well, today was rubbish. All we did was walk past a pile of stones. And I say, well, yes, but this is the remains of the forum, which is sort of the route of Western democracy. So that was the root of the book, really. Look at this, Mark. Do you have this problem? Arlo seems like he's got a good gate on him. Whereas Ray just does this, he just stopped. It's a bit like working, and you've done this over the years, with A-List. talent they will just say I've had enough he's got little legs isn't he he's he's all his coat goes down to the ground don't he's so sweet he's like the world's most handsome brush um I'm taking that although is um he's just scanning the

bushes and the trees because if he sees a squirrel we might hear his um he's quiet usually do you know it I think it makes noise if he sees a squirrel a swan a cat Or a postman. Or postwoman, post it, postal worker. So, yeah. I didn't know dog still chased after postman. That strikes me as quite, oh, what's happened? He's seen a squirrel.

There, he's gone up the tree. It was like this, that's what, that's what, that's a special squirrel bark. What he wants to do now is race to the trunk of the tree and taunt the squirrels. But they taunt him looking down on him, saying you can't reach, me and he's really straining at the leash. He's really mellow and he trots happily along but yeah he's trying to get over to the squirrels. Ray I'm going to pick you up for a bit because you're being ever so silly come on be like up be more like Arlo. I mean I'm saying that Arlo has currently gone wild. He's anything but

calm. He wants to he wants me to let him off the leave but I'm not. He'd get him he wouldn't go anywhere. He would only go to the bottom of these trees. Well, look, I want to talk about your brilliant book, but I also want to do a bit of the Mark Radcliffe origin story. Because I read one of your autobiographies, which I really enjoy. When you say one of my autobiographies? Well, you've written a few. I know.

It sounds a bit of self-important that, doesn't it when you put it like that? Which is, perhaps it is. Yeah. Well, you were originally from Bolton. I was, yeah. Did you have dogs when you were growing up in your family? Yeah, we had a black Labrador called Sabbath. Black Sabbath.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, there's a squirrel there at ground level. There, going up the tree. Listen. Hi. Sorry, but no dogs in these gardens, please. No dogs? No dogs? Oh, no dogs in the gardens.

Oh, that's interesting because we're recording a podcast about dogs. If we pick them up, could we carry the dogs and go? Where can you go through? Oh, thank you. It is just our garden areas. Fine, fine, okay. Thank you. So we'll pass there.

Thank you. We'll get out as quick as we can. There you go. Oh, sorry about that, Mark. Podcast about dogs in an area where dogs are banned. I know. Do you know what? It's a bit, it's getting a bit like Rome.

But yeah, so you grew up. Yeah, we had this dog Sabbath. Really my sister's dog. My sister was very good at adopting dogs. I think it came from a farm where it wasn't wanted. or something. My sister Jane was always very, you know, a sob story always worked on Jane. Perhaps that's why she became a social worker. And so we did have a dog and then when we were, that was when I was a teenager, when we were really young, we had a celium.

It's a bit like a cairn. It was a little white dog. Really? A cilium, a celium terrier called rags. Ragamuffin short into rags. It's a bit of a a snapper actually I think he did bite a couple of kids who came round so I've always been a dog person we really went back to dogs though you know what it's like then you go away and you're working and you work in London you work in Manchester and it doesn't really fit him with a having a dog and then when we had our children we got a coca spaniel called Toto you're good at names aren't you I think you're quite talented at naming dog Sabbath really is that's something special

I did that. I don't think that might have been my sister, although I would have been the Black Sabbath fan in the family. I feel sure. And then I think the kids, they seem to remember. I've got three daughters, Holly from my first marriage, and then Mimi and Rose from my marriage to Bella.

Yeah. And Mimi and Rose were given a choice each. And one of them chose Toto, and the other one chose Jeremy. And so I think we said, right well we'll toss a coin i think we were quite relieved that it came out as as toto arlo was nearly called um kipper Bella wanted to be called kipper but um I think rose must have got rose must have got ohlo we're trying we're trying to blame off the leaves because they're banned

in the gardens isn't it um so we go across the zebra crossing and then we're okay are we in there is that right well i don't i mean we just Park does have it turns out designated we don't want your type here areas fair enough yeah in the ornamental gardens fair enough and um yeah so so Rose chose the name Arlo people assume I chose it because there was a folk singer called Arlo Guthrie of course I remember yeah it was Woody Guthrie's son but it wasn't that Rose picked it out of the air and when we got to the house in Kendall in the late district where we were picking him up the little boy who lived there was called Arlo so that all

seemed to add up really and arlo was the only butterscotch one yes a litter of black cavapies he was he was so he did really stand out presumably he really did stand out oh there at the coffee house so we maybe we're going into is that another cavafo mark i don't know it might be i feel you know your staff i might be well every time i say is that a cavapoo they get another variant don't you oh no this is a bejean multi-pooh or something you know there's so many different version. Look at this little one very special. Hello. Raymond, do you want to say hello?

Raymond, this looks quite, what kind of dog is this? He's a multi poo. There you go, multi poo. You say that. No, I think it's legit. This is a cavapoo. I've actually come quite good at noticing the difference. Yeah.

Well, cavapo are a bit bigger, but the face is slightly different. Right, yeah, multi poo. He's an imperial shih Tzu. Yeah, gorgeous. Raymond. Come on Ray. Have you had a nice meeting? It's lovely to meet you. Bye-bye. See, I quite like those encounters, Mark. And you strike me. Sometimes when I do this podcast, people are like, oh, I don't like the socialising bit with dogs.

Oh, I don't mind that. But Arlo's a bit, he just can be a bit standoffish. He can kind of have a look at groups of people, groups of dogs bounding around. And he'll just take one look and go, nah, don't think so. Looks a bit. like hard work that so oh no you're a bit of a fussy one he can be you can be do yeah I'd love a coffee yeah I'd love one too you first you're the guest I'll have a latte please just normal milk just normal milk no sugar thank you very much whatever are you carrying on recording through it well I'll leave you guys out here fine yeah there's a dog book a little biscuit or a snail we love a little treat see I knew I knew I

I was going to like Mark. I mean I knew that anyway so I'm a huge fan. Thank you very much. But the coffee and snack thing is a real test for me it turns out because it shows if you're coming to this with the level of informality that I like. Good. All right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. No. People are like no, we're here to do a job. Come on. Let's not mess about with coffee. That's great. I've got a bottle of water here with a little attached dish. But I bet he doesn't want any. Ray thinks it's a treat. Look at the greed. I have got some treats. Look at the greed, Mark. So you want to drink Carl. You want you

going to have a drink? Good boy. I thought you might want to drink. Look at the greed on his face. The naked greed of Ray. Good boy, Arlo. Having a drink, that's good. He sometimes seems to go

the whole day without eating or drinking. Live on fresh air. Really? Yeah. Really odd. He's having a drink now, so that's good. I can fill it up in the coffee shop as well.

Arlo looks a bit like a Pixar movie about dogs. He does a bit, doesn't he? He's like the dream-looking dog. He does a bit. He's like, also. I've got some pictures that someone did of him with, what do you call it, chat GV2A. Oh yeah.

Oh, yeah, I picked. So, great, isn't it? Oh, hello. And, but you see, it's just so calm. That was us on the train on the way down. Just sits there and, aren't we? That's what you want. I know, he's great, yeah.

Oh, Ray's quite chill, that. I feel quite lucky. I see some people have these really sort of like history of. I call them a panellist on mock the week dogs. You know those dogs? A bit performative. I want to know a bit more about where you grew up because your dad was sort of, he was involved in the media as well, wasn't he?

Yeah, he started. He was a journalist at the Bolton Evening News. And then he went into Manchester to the Manchester in the news, I think, and maybe the daily mail. There was a big office on Deansgate, Manchester, which was the home of the Manchester Guardian. The Guardian is still technically the Manchester Guardian. I think at that time it might have been the only national newspaper outside of London, The Guardian. And so he went there and then to the BBC actually.

And he was a producer on the local news programme, Look North. And then he went to work in academia, went to Manchester University. And was your mum like a homemaker? Yes, but she was also... I think she was... That was just the way, wasn't it really? I think she was smart and could have got further. She was good at maths and thank you very much.

Thank you. The coffee's arrived in some bag. Could I do you think? We asked them to fill that with tap water and then we've got more dog walker in water. And she became a pharmacist at Boots. And in those days you had to count out that they made their own tablets and things. Cheers. Cheers, Mark.

But it wasn't really, you had kids and the mum stayed at home really. My dad was the first person in his. family to go to university, he went to Sheffield University, where his best mate was the writer Jack Rosenthal, who he knew from Farmy. Royne Lippman's late husband, exactly. That's honestly not what he's best known as. No, he probably is these days, but yeah. He wrote, did he like Patangyang Kippabang or was that someone?

Yeah, Patangyang Kippabang I think, and Bar Mitzvah Boy. That was a big thing, he was a famous thing. Good writer and he was a big friend. my dad's yeah. What was the atmosphere like in your house, Mark? It was pretty relaxed really. Was it? It was quite, I mean, my mum and dad, yeah, it was pretty, I mean, they were pretty, let's say fair, I think, because I was playing in bands and I had a drum kit in the house and people, you know, if you were the drummer. Nightmare, in retrospect. If you were the drummer, people came to rehearse where you were because it was easier to move

anything else other than the drums. So we had a lot of people through the house and my dad was really into classical music and he likes, I mean like the Beatles and things but he was a big music man and my mum played the piano and so you know we we weren't

well off I mean we started out in a small semi-detached house and then we did go up in the world to a detached house yeah but it was sort of holidays in the UK yeah yeah I think I went on my first holiday stay there abroad

when I was 14. There was a big truck coming through. We went to Calella in Spain on a package holiday when I was 14. That was the big thing. And it was like, you know, looking back on it, I remember it being scrubland and concrete towers. I don't remember it being exotic.

I don't remember thinking it's great to be here. But we were quite grateful just to be abroad. Do you know what I mean? When you think it was a level full of comfort and luxury and I suppose even you know your daughter's just what their expectations would be because like with foreign travel now we were going up it was like that hotels were just literally just concrete slabs near the airport yeah I'm quite like you know I remember going to the hotels and the

on suite wasn't a thing it was a bathroom down the hall she had multiple you went and queued up waited for someone to come out Frank Skinner actually had a go up with an outside toilet? Yeah, well, I didn't do that. And all the things that wouldn't surprise you about Franks-Gillard. No, I didn't do that, but yeah, I mean, like, when my kids went to university, certainly when I went to university in 1976,

it would never have occurred to me that you could have an unsweet room. Yeah. That wouldn't have been a thing at all. I don't think anybody did. But now my kids would have expected that, and I expect it now. And do you think it was, you were aware, or in was it something that everyone around you was aware of,

that you were sort of a gifted speaker or conversationalist, I suppose? I think it was a show-off. I think it was a pain in the ass. I think a bit of an extrovert, which I actually, for me enough, I don't think I am now. I think I'm quite quiet. You know, and our house is a very mellow space now. Bella and I, we can sit in separate rooms and watch different things

and not talk to each other, but we're perfectly content like that. we don't feel the need to fill the day with noise. I think because I sort of talk for a living. It's like coming home and work. You know, if you do painting and decorating, you don't want to go home and paint your own living room, do you? And so I don't want to go home and talk, really.

And that's fine by Bella. But I think so, I think that I'm definitely not an introvert, but I sort of perform to order in a way, really. You know, I mean, the radio shows and the sort of, talk shows and gigs and things that I do are an extension of me but they're a heightened version of me in fact I don't like Bella coming very much because I feel self-conscious because I feel like she knows it's not really me it is me but it's a different version of me I know what you mean I did a I think a lot of performers are like that

really because performing you have to be able to switch it off and don't you think radio specifically because the focus is entirely on your vocal persona I suppose I did a radio show for Absolute with Frank Skinner for years. It was like you do a slightly ramped up version of yourself. It's like you were at a party, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Would you say that's how you're your person is? I do try and avoid parties, but yeah.

Do you? You're a real introvert, I think. Well, I don't know. I mean, as a kid, I definitely wasn't. I love performing. I love being on stage. I love being in school plays. I loved being, you know, and I wanted to be in a band, really. Although I wanted to be a drummer.

I did want to sit at the back. I only started singing because no one else would do it. everyone else was learning the guitar and they had to look at their fingers. And so I said, well, I'll do it. I'll do it until someone else gets the hang of it. And that was 50 years ago. And I'm still playing, I'm still singing, I'm still, I still play the drums and I played a guitar. And I still love it.

I still love doing gigs, you know, a little room of 100 people. And although we've been doing these things with Mark and Lard, where we've been filling big theatres. And, I mean, if you can, I mean, who wouldn't love that, the feeling of people laughing at what you say and thinking you're great. I mean, it's a lovely feeling, isn't it? You know, who wouldn't like that? And I don't feel any nerves at all with any other things that I do. Really?

I don't feel any nerves going on the radio. I sort of feel... It's funny, really. We've been busy with the book. Promoting things and going around doing appearances, me and Arlo, and going on the telly, and going on radio shows and things. And I was knackered this week. We've been travelling, and he was knackered.

And then I thought, oh, this weekend, I can relax on Saturday and Sunday because all I've got to do is the six music show. that feels just like just going in and putting my feet up and chatting just do it about whatever happened I think it was route master buses mainly this weekend

and also the milk marketing board you chatted about the milk marketing board you're absolutely right that came up yeah so I think that's the joy of that show really it's just a stream of consciousness thing and I think that's what makes it

entertaining and funny because you've got that freedom you've got the freedom to let it run and see where it goes you went to Manchester University you did. And you did English and American studies? And a bit of classics maybe thrown in? You're quite well informed about me, aren't you?

You've actually looked me up. I'm just let you off. It's very nice. I'm a big fan of yours. I know about people I like. There are certain people I turn off and I know my call. But I wonder what made you, the fact that you did English, so that always makes me think, well, someone wants a career in the arts of some description.

I think probably. And I always was very aware of the power of words, songs, poetry, books. But I think what I wanted to be was in a successful band, first and foremost. That was the idea. And then radio was never something I'd thought about. Really? But then we were in a band and I thought, right, we'll give the band a go now. And when I turned around, everyone else had left and got a job.

And I'd like, right, well, what would we do? Better get it. They'd think about getting a job then. And I really, I mean, it's frightening now. And I see the pressure sort of kids are putting to think what you want to do and make these decisions early. I had no idea what I wanted to do when I left university, let alone when I did me GCSEs, RO levels, as they were in those days.

And, you know, such was my lack of thought about it. One of the jobs I applied for, you remember at grocer's shops, they used to have scales on the counter made by a firm called Avery. Avery scales. And at the milk round where it was graduate recruitment fair. I love Avery Scale. Sounds like a character in a Thomas Hardy novel. It does, isn't it?

Avery Scale. And so I thought, oh, they came to the graduate recruitment fair. And I don't know why I talked to them. And then it was, oh, here comes a little Bedlington. They look like a lamb, don't they? I love a Bedlington. We love a Bedlington, yeah. Oh, Bedlington's are my favourite.

They look like a lamb. Who's the Bedlington with? Oh, we love your bedlington. They're so elegant. They're like, what do they remind you of? They might just look like a lamb. Oh, he's coming over to say hello to our own. It's white, but he's got brown feet.

The Bedlington looks like it's walking on stilettos. It looks like he's up shoes on, isn't it? So, yeah, so I went to the store. I don't know why, I was just sort of killing time. And I went to the store where they were recruiting salesman for Avery Scales. And what you got was a, um, a SCADA estate car as a company car and I thought could get drums into that

could get me drums in that that was some of extensive career planning going on really there's no pressure was there because like all the taxpayers and Bolton had paid for me to go to university all the bin men getting up at four in the morning had to pay for me to lie in bed and get up at midday and read Gerard Manley Hopkins UB 40 and well this is later but they've made it

acceptable for people to be on the dome. Yeah, yeah. In fact, almost aspirational. Exactly. And so then my dad was writing the book on the history of Piccadilly Radio, which was the independent radio station in Manchester. A lot of good people came through there,

went on to other things. Chris Evans come through there. Chris Evans came through there, yeah. They wanted an assistant producer for drama and classical music. And so my dad put a word in for me. because I've been to all the Halle Orchestra concerts with him. My first gigs were the Halle Orchestra at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester.

And I've read a few plays because I've done a literature degree. So I got that job. And so when I was in there, you got a chance to do bits of everything. And so that's where sort of producing and presenting and, you know, just doing music stuff started really. And that's where radio was just sort of an accident, really. When did it become clear to everyone around you that you potentially, had talent on air? I think some people are still waiting for that to be evident.

I mean, my style presenting, I was happy producer. Unless I've misremembered this, I don't think I had any aspiration to be a presenter. Really? I was just, I thought when I started work, I was still quite proud of this. I thought, if I'm going to work for 40 years, and it's turned out to be kind of that length of time at the moment,

a bit longer. I'm going to work for more of years. It'd be quite good if it was something you didn't hate. Yeah. You know, it'd be quite good something you weren't going to dread because it's going to be for the whole of your life, maybe. But then when I was there, and Manchester music was sort of exploding, factory records,

Joy Division and all those things. And I went to the guy who ran the station. I said, listen, we're in Manchester. We should be playing all this stuff. And he said, well, yeah, he said, but we haven't got anyone who knows anything about it. I said, well, I know about it. And he said, well, can you present a radio show?

I said, well, how hard can that be? You know, because I wasn't trying to be a celebrity or a personality or get a TV quiz show. I was just telling people what the records were, like John Peel, who was kind of my radio idol at the time. And so they gave me, that was the wonderful thing about working for a local radio station. They said, well, okay, you can try it on Saturday afternoons while the football's off in the summer,

as long as you carry the local cricket scores. And I liked cricket and I like music. So that was fine by me. So that was where it began really. But then when I went to Radio One, I went as a producer. You know, again, the presenting came a bit later as an accident. And you obviously had a large part of your career has been spent at the BBC on Radio One, Radio 2, Six Music. Most of it hugely successful.

But obviously, I'm very keen to talk about. the small part of it that was less successful, which you're very self-deprecating about, hilariously so, which was when you got asked to take over from Chris Evans to do, it's the big job in radio, really, isn't it? It is. The Breakfast Shirt Radio 1. Yeah.

It was the biggest audience for a radio show in Europe when we took it over. Not for long at that point, but, yeah, I mean... And Chris Evans was leaving. Chris Evans was leaving. What had happened was Mark Riley and I, who was known as Lard, we had done an... And he, I only, he was he your guitarist in the fall? Yeah, yeah.

And so he and I were doing this evening show, which we called The Graveyard Shift, which was a very nice piece in The Times about this weekend. Someone who was talking about how the radio voice transports you somewhere. And it was like how she was, she would, sort of, when she heard me doing the folk show, it had transported her back to her teens and that show. And she said that that show, she said she didn't know there's been anything since,

which was in terms of the combination of light entertainment and public service heft, because me and Mark did loads of dafts sketches and things. But we also had Mark Kermode on talking about cult movies and Will Self talking about cult books. And our resident poet was a parole officer from near Huddersfield called Simon Armitage, who's now the poet laureate.

And so we didn't want to work nights anymore though And so Radio One gave us the afternoons And we were very pleased with that But then Matthew Bannister was in charge of the time phoned up And he had a very big public spat with Chris Evans And they wanted us to do the breakfast show And we didn't want to do it And so they offered us a deal

And we turned it down And said now that's not enough money Thinking they'd tell us to get lost Yeah And we asked for about double, I think. And they said, oh, all right, then. And we thought, oh, bloody hell. And then they said, but you'll have to do it from London.

And we thought, well, here's our out. We don't want to leave Manchester and thinking that that would be the final straw. And they said, well, okay, then. So we were stuck with it then. We did not want to do it. But I don't think it really occurred to us that we would fail so spectacularly. I don't think. But it's a lot more scrutiny.

Suddenly, I suppose, you feel much more that. white heat of celebrity and I wondered it felt to me like you didn't particularly like that it was too big a change I think you know um we weren't prepared for it at all and chris evans had made it you know it'd become very all tabloid fodder and we really didn't fit into that world at all we I think we thought that Chris by his own admission had become a bit of a kind of monster and egomaniac around that time. And I think and his thing was all like show business celebrity and I think that people we thought look how brown that tears already. Oh yeah. Amazing isn't it. And the hot weather we've been having this look that

looks positively autumnal doesn't it. It's very beautiful. But I think I think Mark and I and perhaps Radio One, who apparently could have had Anton Dek instead of Mark and large which would have seemed like a no-brainer to me. But I think we thought that perhaps something a bit more down to earth and rough hune would be a nice contrast to Chris Evans. Well it was certainly a contrast but for most people not a nice or welcome one. And so it was terrifying really. And like if you can imagine chipping ice off your car at four in the morning to go in and die on your ass again and get another slate in, it was a really miserable time. Really miserable. And really when we got sacked it was a relief, especially, seen as they would thank thankfully because I think a lot of people would have just let us go

and would have been branded failures and Matthew you know kept faith in us and put us on the afternoons where it absolutely flourished and the success of the mark and large in the afternoons is why 20 years on now we're doing these theatre shows where we just talk about it and people know the punch lines and the catchphrases before we get there you know it's like people still love it so so it worked out fast. but it worked out, it was lucky. It certainly didn't go according to plan. I feel like with, I suppose, I don't really want to use the word fame,

but with having a profile through doing creative work, there's almost two, as well the choice you have to make where you think, right, well, I can either have a collection of people who really get and love what I do, or I can be liked by everyone. Yeah. Or known at least by everyone. Yeah, yeah. And I feel that Latter choice just didn't really suit you, did it?

I think you always felt I want to, I know what I'm good at and I know how I like doing things and I want to sort of do things in the way that I do them. I think you're right. And I think that that's, I think that my level of notoriety or whatever has been good because I've never been a huge celebrity and a huge celebrity, people go on. them don't me whereas I always just cruised along with the same people quite enjoying what I do and growing older with me in a way you say that and so you did win celebrity stars in their eyes I did you're right shame McGowan you did I did win celebrity stars in the ride congratulations oh look at all these doggies

they look like about it looks like a pack of Arlo's out on the field there doesn't it look at the mall what do you think they recognize their kin like well Arlo think all there's a cabapoo do you think I mean I don't know I think they Maybe a little bit. It's like beetle drivers. Talking of which. Beetle drive. Yeah, beetle drivers.

Yeah. Because they're meant to do the nod, aren't they? Oh, beetle drivers. Sorry. My grandma used to go to something called a beetle drive, where you shook a dice and did made up insects. Remember, we gave a beetle? We had to make our own entertainment in nature.

You really? Talking of Beatles. Yes. I want to talk about your brilliant book, which I've just read, had the pleasure of reading called Ettu Cabapoo. Yeah. because you took yourself off to Rome for three months with Ollo and Bella your wife came as well.

She was allowed. And you document this in this really lovely, really funny and actually really interesting book. I found out so much about the history of Rome. I think that it's not, it's a travel book, but not a travel guide. Because I was interested in the history and things. But I mean, basically these days, there's nothing I can. tell you about the Coliseum that you can't Google in 30 seconds or if you want a real sort of in-depth thing you can read it by an archaeologist and historian. However, the

background of things that we see in the Caravaggio paintings, it's worth knowing, you know, it's sort of blooming mind, but it's worth knowing a little bit about Caravaggio and who he is. And so I do think that if you read the book, he was a bit of a wrong. He was a bit of a rogue, Yeah, he was. But I do think that if you read the book, you do get a flavour of Rome. I do think it gives you a feeling about what it's like there and some of the things you can see and some of the off the beaten track things you can see. So that was, I mean, that was always the idea that we would really, we would say, yeah, we went past the Coliseum, but you know about the Coliseum, but around the corner from the Coliseum is a little church where there's some of the

imprints of St. Peter's knees. You know. And Arlo's saying things like, I think they said that we're going to see some knees today, but that can't be right. Why would anyone do that? And he sort of comments on us. He said, you know, he says, I think my humans are okay.

But sometimes I wonder if they're actually a bit boring. Like, who would go across town to see some knees? So he seems to, he's sort of cognizant of some things and not others, you know. And he opens up. His first speech in the book is call me Arlo. He takes on the opening of Moby Dick to announce himself. So he has got, he has

imbued some of my literary interests, I think. And I was fascinated as well just to get a sense of how, if at all, dog friendly Rome and Italy in general was. Very. And it turned out it was, wasn't it? It was, very. What's the translation in Italian is in arms. Yeah, embratia. And that means you have to carry the dog arms. Yeah, which is a lovely word. It feels like you're embracing your dog, which you are now. Embrazier. Embracia. Gremondo. But most of the places, you could. Like restaurants, bars, no problem at all. Even the supermarket, you know, it was fine. I mean, people are stupid, though. I mean, I was on this form about dog-friendly Rome.

And someone said, can you take your dog into the Sistine Chapel? I mean the Sistine chapels in the middle of the labyrinth of the Vatican you're going to be in there two to three hours I mean what do you think's going to happen when you get your golden retriever to the Sistine chapel you know you're going to leave an offer into the almighty that it wouldn't appreciate And the Pope's going to say why aren't you having children instead?

Yeah he's gone now that Pope Francesco has gone it's Leo now I bought a Pope Francesco bobblehead Yeah called the Famosi head knocker So he's been with us on our tour dates as well. So you could take him more or less anywhere. The really weird things were the only places Arlo wasn't allowed. We went to a trail of sculpture follies in a forest. He wasn't allowed in

there. I mean, he bars a dog from a forest. And the other one was a really new modern art gallery, which is on the site of what used to be Europe's biggest abattoir. And he wouldn't let dogs in there either. And you'd think, animals have actually been through here in quite significant numbers. None of them had had a nice time there, but he wouldn't, so all the time in Rome, he wasn't allowed in a forest and an abattoir, which seems really weird, didn't it?

I wonder whether he didn't want to go in the abattoir anywhere. I wonder whether he could sense animal. I don't want Arlo to be in the abatto. No, no. What prompted you to take that trip? I mean, you'd said, I know you'd lost your parents. Yeah. was it sort of seven years ago or something?

Yeah, something like that. I mean, and I think, I mean, you know, and that had its own sadnesses, but my mum's last few years hadn't been great, so there was an element of relief and thanks that she was at peace. And so they both lived to her good age. My mum was 91, my dad was 85,

so that was okay. There's no tragedy there. And my children have all left home and started on their life, post-university lives and careers. and so we're kind of free on a daily basis really and so the BBC kind of gave me a sabbatical and I wanted to do it even though Bella's the traveller of the pair of us

I'm I think Arlo and I are both cancerian home-loving yeah I'm cancering so I'm always kind to go somewhere but I'm really glad to get home but if you believe in the horseshit of astrology which I don't really although sometimes you just think I am like that though I am like what people say cancerian are like. And so I'd never lived anywhere except Bolton and Manchester and London. Does that mean you're quite weepy and emotional? No, not really. No, I'm not. No, I'm really

not. Do you cry often? No. I don't. In fact, you know, I cry when I lose a dog. I mean, that's just like the greatest pain, isn't it? You know, it's just awful until you've had a dog. When you people say, oh my dog's died, you say, oh, that's sad. Are you getting another one? You know, before you've had a dog. And when you've had a dog, you realize that it's like, I mean, And now I just can't even bear to think about it. Arlo's six. So hopefully we've got 10 years, you know. Raise eight, but I'm already, I think about it too often.

I know. Do you? It's awful. It's awful. And we did have a little dog between Toto and Arlo called Ziggy, another cavapoo. And very sadly, he ran under a car at the age of eight months. And that is, it was just horrific. It was horrific.

It's so hard. It's so bad. It sometimes makes you wonder why you do it to yourself. but the 15 years of companionship and affection you get, you know you're going to get two or three months of hell at the end of it. But then, and also when you get a new dog, it doesn't replace the old dog. I've told Bella, we've got the ashes of Toto. This is a happy subject for your podcast, isn't it?

No, do you know what? People who are interested in dogs, they'll be going to know these emotions. And we went, we got incommated. And then we put him in a bag to scatter him in the garden. and I've still got it. I can't bear. So I've said to Bella, when I go, put all the dogs in with me. I want to go where I'm going with my dogs. Oh, that's making me cry.

Yeah, so Toto and Ziggy and Alaw will be coming with me. I suppose I'm 67, so I suppose if Aarlo lives for 10 years, the next dog will be my last dog, won't it? So, yeah, I'm very, and so that's, I've certainly cried when the dogs have died. And you're, you seem very well and in good spirits physically and everything. Because I know you had a difficult time a few years back, didn't you? And you were diagnosed with cancer.

Yeah. Did you get the all clear then? Yeah, I'm all right. Yeah, I'm fine. Oh, so pleased. Yes, thank you. No, it's amazing. And it is, um, that must have been scary.

Really scary. Um, I feel, yeah. I mean, it was awful. Um, it was throat and neck cancer, followed by pancreatic cancer, actually. And then, but yeah, they said if they hadn't found it, it went out, it was 60. And if I, if I, if they hadn't found it, and I found it because I had a beard and I suddenly had decided to have a shave and found a lump in my neck. And if I hadn't done that, and we just left it, they said I would have had six to eight months.

So, so to now be 67, walking in the park with Arlo is fantastic. And so it's made me a much happier and kinder and nice. I don't think I was unkind or not nice before, but honestly, I think it's like, I'm not glass half full, the glass is totally full. The glass is overflowing all the time, because this is all bonus time. I suppose that was part of going to Rome, really.

I had no daily responsibilities with parents or children. And so to go somewhere and just be there and not just as a regular tourist, but days where you can just do nothing if you fancy and just really just let a place seep into you and wash over you. It really made me want to go there after reading it. It's a beautiful city. I mean, it's got everything and it's got all the history.

You know, it's all there. And the colours, just the light. You know, every corner of you turns like a Caravaggio painting or a scene from a Fellini movie. And the buildings are sort of pinks and browns and oranges and yellows and then something like it just kind of glows everywhere you go. It glows is the only word for it. I love the way you write as well.

You can tell you've... studied English? Yeah, it's like, I kind of like writing, but I like writing this book is a bit shorter. I don't like writing books because it's a bit like doing your homework. I'd rather walk the dog or go for a pint or read the paper or watch cricket or something. Oh, look at this pretty bridge, Mark. Beautiful.

A big sort of plume of water coming out of. It's gorgeous. I've been to Regents Park for years. Really lovely, isn't it? trying to get Arlo? We're trying to eat there. Offering nice treats and like getting a bit of chewing over something. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday so whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.