Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Mark Watson

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

This week Emily and Ray take Mark Watson for a walk round Lloyd Park in Walthamstow. They chatted about Mark’s passion for writing, discovering stand-up comedy at university and how he changed his life to focus on the work that made him happy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I do see what you mean about dogs check him out for a bit and then they're like there's not a lot to work with here. The guy is too small, he's too, like... Tell me about it, it's not all in my life. Yeah, I think it's a judgement on New War Raymond. It's just, it's very easy to dismiss small people, you know this, yourself. This week on Walking the Dog, I took Raymond to Walthamstow in East London to stroll with award-winning comedian, taskmaster legend and celebrated novelist Mark Watson. Mark grew up in a cat family.

up in a cat family. That's domestic cats, by the way. It wasn't some tiger king set up, but his daughter is a huge dog fan. So I think he was kind of intrigued to see what this whole dog thing was about. And I like to think Raymond did a very good PR job for the canine world, except for the bit where he had a bit of an accident requiring wet wipes. Let us just agree never to speak of that incident again, Mark. I'm a huge fan of Mark's comedy. He's just a phenomenally good stand-up and we had the loveliest time. He told me about his passion for writing, which was obviously evident from a really young age. But it was during his university years at Cambridge that he discovered the talent he had for stand-up comedy. Mark also chatted about some of

the challenges that came with the pressures of appearing on TV regularly and how he kind of changed his life a bit to focus on work that really made him happy. Now Mark's obviously funny, but he's also just this very benign, gentle presence. He's the kind of person who'd find a diary and hand it back without reading any of the contents. He's just one of life's good people. I really like Mark, and I know you will too, and I think his date with Raymond was a success.

Well, except for the unfortunate toilet break incident, requiring wet wipes, but, you know, who hasn't experienced that on a date at some point? I really recommend you go and see Mark on tour this year, as he's honestly so fantastic live. Head to Mark Watsoncom. com. Remember to follow us, rate and review. I'll stop talking now and let the man speak for himself. Here's Mark and Raymond.

Your hands, which way should we go? I think a nice way to go is, I was thinking about getting a coffee actually, is that a thing? There's a cafe like halfway down the park sort of thing. I mean, we'll just go this way, yeah. I'm so thrilled you said that. I'm going to let you into a little secret. The producer and I have a sort of informal test, which is how the guest responds to the suggestion of a coffee. Oh, I'm always, I'm always pro, yeah. I'm always looking for opportunities to...

I'll often get a coffee even if I don't really want or need it, you know, just for the comfort of it or something, for the feeling of doing it. But also, if you can't be casual doing a podcast where you walk a dog, I mean... What's this mark in your park? I don't know. I saw this this morning when I went for a run.

They're up to... Well, they're... What it is, is proper men doing some... stuff with wood in it but there's this cafe but there's one down further down as well so yeah it's quite big the park and there's also there is a there's a specific dog bit of the park as well which you sometimes uh which of course i've never been into but um what dog seems to like it so i'm going to introduce you mark i'm so delighted you agreed to do this because i know you're a super busy man especially as you're on tour at the moment which we're going to discuss i'm with

the multi-talented comedian and writer Mark Watson and we're in Mark hasn't got a dog which we'll and we'll discuss the reasons for that shortly but do you want to introduce us to your park this is Lloyd Park in Walthamstow it's like the the grounds of a former sort of stately home type thing which is now museum and gallery and the park itself well it's got a we're walking past a lake a little man-made lake there's tennis courts there's cafe I mean it's a big park and it's right this is right down from where I live and very, sort of the heart of this bit of Walthamstow.

I think I've only lived here a couple of years and I'm running this park all the time. And it's also a beautiful day. So on a day like this, the park seems very nice really. There's a farmer's market here at the weekends. Of course there is. Of course there is. And it really is dog city actually. The number of dogs you get in this park generally, but especially at the markets and stuff is off the scale.

Oh, sometimes I feel a bit sad for Raymond when other dogs sort of check him out. Yeah. What, they feel that he's not. It's a bit no lighty, no like you, just to drag that one back up. Yes, it is. But I guess, I don't know, maybe it's like being a person. Some people you just know are out of your league without having to think about it too much. It's brutal, Mark.

Yeah, but so all forms of being alive are brutal in that regards. We're always being judged by each other. There'll be people out there that fancy Raymond, I should think, well, dogs, I mean. He is small in you though, there's no doubt about that. I wonder if that's the sort of thing that you get a complex about it or if you're that breed of dog you just expect, you just know that's how big you are. I know like... Well, I know what you mean it's a bit like that that dog is the sort of Winkle Voss

twins to his Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. I like to think that Raymond's all churning around in his head. He'll get his revenge one day. Of course it is. Oh, do you see what I mean he's the jock? Yeah. Yeah, the dog just went athletically after a tennis ball and grabbed it in his mouth.

Now, Raymond doesn't have a look of a jock about him, I'll give you. But Zuckerberg had a last laugh, didn't he? He really did. In the human analogy. He really did. Maybe Raymond will one day become a tech pioneer of the dog world, whatever the equivalent of that would be. So Mark, fabulous Mark Watson, who I'm a huge fan of, I have to say. I'm going to be very uncool and say this right from the start.

Well, it's very nice. I don't know if it's uncool. I'd rather that than if you said that. I'm not really fan, but here we are. Hello. Is that a Brussels Griffin? No, it's an aphan pincher. Oh, Affin pincher mark.

See, here you do have almost identical size dog to Raymond and it shows you. Affen pincher mark, what do you think? I've not heard that before but a fun little dog. It kind of translates as monkey dog. Fair enough. Yeah, Apham, of course. Well, Raymond is Shih Tzu which translates as lion dog. There you go.

In their own minds, they're a monk in a lion in the savannah or something. This is the cafe I was talking about. Oh, lovely. So Mark, yeah, talk me through your relationship with dogs or non-relationship with them. Yeah, it kind of is a non-relationship, really. I'm sort of, no, I must be towards dogs, but I've just never really had the dog gene, which most people seem to have, where they automatically get kind of, you know, excited or something.

sentimental about dogs. I didn't grow up with the dog. I never kind of just never got to know a specific dog particularly well and I if anything I find them slightly not one like Raymond but bigger dogs I find quite sort of disconcerting when they look often if you're a runner dogs do just like lollop up to you and look as if they are going to sort of grab you and occasionally they do. I've been harassed by dogs in this part before you have to be a good sport about it. Yeah but I do think um I just you're I've just never learned to really get on with dogs or be natural around them. Whereas my daughter, who's only seven, is absolutely besotted with dogs. She's like nothing more than to get one.

So I am in a stage of my life where I need to at least understand how to get on with dogs. Because one day I probably will cave into that. If anything, I thought it would be fun to do this podcast because I've hardly ever walked a dog in my life. I haven't really, you know, wanted to. So this is a... I'm not saying I'm averse to it, but I just don't think...

I don't know. It feels like... I mean... The thing is, when my daughter's a bit older, it would be more about her looking after the dog. But at the moment, she's still the baby, basically. So it would fall on me to do quite a lot of the actual work of it, I think. So, yeah, I basically, no real history with dogs,

and that's the... And I sort of... Just don't seem to naturally bond with them. But me and Raymond's getting on the right so far. I think he's a good starter dog, because he's not really like a dog. No, now you've picked him up, he looks more like a sort of bird or something, actually. Like an owl almost. Yeah, I really like shih Tzu's because they're very, they're sort of playful and vivacious,

but there's a real, they're quite judgmental, which I like. Yeah, it does give the impression of judgment, actually, a little bit, I'd say. He sort of looks if he's thinking it's beneath his dignity, you'd be lifted up in the way that you are lifting up like a baby. But it's not like you can do that, is that? Because he's dignity or not, he's, you're right, he's sort of got the effect of the eyes of an 80-year-old, but with the body of a small furry alien.

So it's probably quite a weird life. That's described me, really. Well, fair enough, yeah. Well, apparently, you know, they're obsessed Tibetan, but his monks are obsessed by them. They're sort of their, their mascot dog. Really? Yeah. You can sort of see why.

There's a sort of slightly monk-like. air to him. He doesn't reject earthly pleasures. No, very few dogs do in my experience. Dogs are quite into, dogs think it's more earthly pleasures, yeah, I love that. Yeah, you don't see many dogs look at a bowl of food and say, I will deprive myself of this because there is a bigger picture. Oh, so no dogs were in the Watson household. No, we had a cat, but even then, my parents weren't that fussed about the cat, really. I mean, they looked after it, but I think that I think they'd adopted him from someone that didn't, you know, so it was, I mean, we were all fond of him, but he lived, we had quite a passive relationship with the cat.

Jim, his name was, and in fact, then my sister's got another cat. So it's been a cat household, the Watson family household. And my parents, just not huge animal lovers. They were always looked after the cats very well, but it is funny. If you say that you don't, that you're not really into animals or certainly dogs, it's one of the most unpopular things you can possibly say in this country. and yeah it feels as if you're like 10% away from saying my parents bought animals so that they could

you know have them for their hides or something but so I should I should again it was an animal friendly household but we never really also I think I can't remember who but one the first it will have been an uncle or great uncle or something had a dog and the house really stank of dog in the way that and I think the first couple of people I encountered

that were dog households I really did feel like it like it smelled very doggy in the houses. In the same way that the first heavy smoker I knew was, again, a great uncle in his house stank of cigarettes and so, which I don't actually mind the smell of fags as an adult, but that stale smell of like a smoking room in a hotel that used to get. So in the case of both dogs and smoking,

I think I grew up with negative associations about what it does to your house and surroundings, and those things are maybe quite deep-rooted, still if I go to someone's house that's got a dog, I expect it to really stink of dog. And sometimes, of course, it does. But sometimes not at all. Depends on the dog, I realize that now. Some breeds are more or less odourless.

And I suppose it depends on how you look after the dog and all sorts of things as well. I think it's probably that thing a bit like, because you've had kids in the way that you've probably become immune to smell of their poo or something. And where kids are equally disgusting, let's be fair. Yeah. And also you do become immune to the shambles that they make of your house.

They zone out noise parents, don't they? I think so, yeah. If someone else's kid is making a noise on a plane or something, it doesn't really bother me. If anything, I just feel relief that it's not me that I have to deal with it. Whereas, like, a loud barking dog is definitely much more likely to get into my brain if it's sort of keeping me away. And again, it's to do with what you're used to, I suppose.

It's just what you're accustomed to. Yeah. Should we go this way, Mark? Yeah, if we go around to our left now, there's a huge, great expanse of part. including this dog enclosure. Look at the little girl, Marks. You like... Yeah, you like the dog.

This dog bit is just, well, I'll show you. But I mean, I don't know how Raymond will fare in it because it's quite often big dog stuff. A bit early to call him Ray. We don't know each other. Do you like the name Ray? No, I actually think Raymond is more distinguished. It certainly suits his kind of air of dignity better, I think.

He looks like a Raymond. You can imagine him sort of writing a novel or something. Although I also liked him being a sort of minor character in the Sweeney. Yeah, it's definitely quite a... It's a bit 70s as names go, isn't it? Generally, I'm a fan of dogs having sort of solid human names rather than cutesy names. So tell me, Mark, tell me about the Watson family growing up.

And this was in Bristol, wasn't it? Yeah, I had three younger siblings, and the two of them, the girls were twins, twin sisters, identical twins, and they were animal fans. It's confusing to me why girls seem to grow up with more, not always, obviously, but my sisters were both really interested animals in a way that me and my brother were and now my daughter is in a way that my son isn't really. I don't know if it's because, I don't think it's because we surround girls with kind

of cute toy animals and stuff because I also did, I feel that that happens to you if you're a boy as well, but something does seem, something seems to grab small girls a lot of the time about so I've I've been surrounded by people sort of worshipping animals for most of my life I suppose but it's just never quite rubbed off for me yeah they were never allowed to well I don't know if they ever wanted a dog probably but again they were sort of fobbed off with a cat I suppose a cat is like what what your parents wave through if they're not prepared to get a dog and what was your family environment like

Well, it was very happy, really. It's sort of suburban Bristol, yeah, we grew up in, and it was a very nice, quiet child, I'd say. Your dad was chemistry? It's chemistry, that's right, yeah. And my mum was a secretary for various medical firms. And so she sort of, yeah, they both worked. My brother and I got very well still do.

All of us, actually, the siblings, got in very well. So it was a pretty play. I was the oldest one and sort of a golden boy and this dog is right out Raymond's assed if I'm used that phrase but again I do see what you mean about dogs check him out for a bit and then they're like there's not there's not a lot to work with here the guy is too small these two like tell me about it's wrong in my life yeah I think it's a judgement on year war Raymond it's just it's very easy to dismiss small people you know this yourself you're done there you're done

was this sort of sciencey person. Yeah. And I always just think of those households. I knew sciencey households, because I grew up with weird bohemian weirdos who were in the theatre and on TV and stuff. Right, yeah. And I always was quite jealous of those households

with people whose parents were, yeah, things like chemistry professors or... Yeah, my dad was... Being a teacher was, you know, he was a teacher at my school even, so I had, you know, if anything more routine than most people because we drove me in we drove into school together once I'd be this is a secondary school and um yeah both of them were kind of I mean actually

none of them was strictly nine to five person because my dad had a lot of extracurricular stuff at the school and my mum was had a regular eyes but there definitely was a sort of order to it and I do sometimes think actually when I um when I talk to people who grew up in more like yeah weird bohemian type households it is perhaps harder for them to um paradoxically harder for them to do stuff in the arts and things because for a start there's that pressure that people that assume you're bound to and also

if you've never known anything different from that it's quite sort of destabilising I think like I think I sought out this life because life was kind of nice and normal and my parents just encouraged me to do what I felt most interested in it's yeah there's a lot to be said for just providing normality as a parent I think

there was no expectation on me to do anything in entertainment or any of the stuff I have done so I just kind of found it for my for myself I also didn't have the opposite extreme of charge away or like massively frustrated because you live in like an absolute back quarter of a shithole which is how people end up in bands and stuff but that also isn't you know necessarily healthy because that gives you a sort of almost manic desire to escape to the big cities I was somewhere in between I had it kind of, like I had plenty of, well, not plenty of, I had so I had opportunity to kind of,

there was plenty going on, but this world felt really far away at that time. And yeah, in some ways I think that's, and I think about now my own kids, not wanting them to grow up in a situation that's too weird and removed from what most of their mates and stuff experience. Yeah, it's very interesting. Was your house a funny household? Did people laugh a lot Mark? Have you the originator of the comedy a lot of the time? No, my dad was the originator, I think. But he wasn't really a...

He wasn't really a sort of dad joker. Like people often, you know, like the cliché of the dad is always like the one that does embarrassing jokes and like wears embarrassing jumps and stuff. My dad had quite a dry wit and his sense of humor is very similar to mine basically. But he just never had any ambitions to perform. I remember he did a best man speech at my. my uncle's wedding there, my uncle married about, I was about 10 and they were going on honeymoon to Malaysia and Thailand and stuff like that quite at the time, a very ambitious

honeymoon. My dad did this speech with a load of gags and puns about Southeast Asia, just a real, a cracker of a best man's speech. It's the first time I'd seen, I always knew my dad was funny, like, ran the Sunday dinner table, but this was different. I was thinking, fair play, this guy's got something. And then years later, he took an assembly, um, the teachers used to take turns to present assemblies on Friday, well in front of the whole school, and you could talk about anything you wanted, and most of the teachers dreaded it being their turn,

because it was a big school, and quite an intimidating thing for a... But again, my dad did something about advertising it or something, and he hadn't even told me he was doing it, so when he got up, I was like, Christ, it's my dad. And again, he nailed it. So basically, he was always funny, but it just, it never got anywhere near doing it. got anywhere near doing anything like this or wanted to.

But he was the sort of guy, he'd crack a joke about like boys and something in a chemistry lesson. People that had been in his classes would often tell me about, you know, he was the sort of teacher that would spring a sly gag on you, basically. And my whole family liked that. There was a sort of typical family culture of mild piss-taking and stuff like that. But no one else wanted to perform or did anything. like this and I didn't really necessarily think I want to grow up but I

didn't think so I wanted to write really were you were an extrovert I remember I remember plenty of times at parties and things feeling like I you know it shouldn't be there and like typical teenage stuff I was I was pretty quiet really and I was happy in my room just listening to music so I think people sometimes ask in interviews, were you the class joker? Were you like the clown? Because there is, like, people often imagine, and it sometimes actually is true. The comedians say, oh, I was the one that made everyone laugh so I wouldn't get bullied or, and that was my thing. And there are a fair few comedians whose background is that, but more of us, I think, come from a position of just

being kind of quiet and slightly lonely and not really out with people at the pub. And so you sort of a, in your 20s, you compensate. When you become a comedian, basically, you're getting, you're sort of getting your own back for years of being. I wasn't like that lonely or that marginalised son, but I just didn't feel very confident around people, basically. And when I look back at the people who were the class clowns, there were two or three people I can remember

who would, like, wind the teacher up or, like, you know, stick something on someone's back or chuck stuff around. And those people in my experience never did become comedians because they sort of got that out of their system when we were at school. That was the best bit for them. Of course, I'm generalising, but I think I reckon most comedians,

most stand-ups, weren't extroverts or clowns at school. There were people just like quietly stewing on loads of stuff and not really sure how to get out of their system. And that's not just comedians. I think most sort of people in creative interviews probably carried a lot of quiet stuff around with them for a while.

Because if you were an extrovert You always had friends and you always had people to talk to in parts and stuff. I don't know where the drive to create stuff would come from. Again, you can't generalise. There are plenty of comedians that are massive personalities on stage. And if you meet them in real life, they're exactly the same. But yeah, it's definitely not necessary to be an extrovert to do it. If anything, if you get to a level of being all right at it,

stand-up is quite good for introverts because no one else can really talk while you're up. that it's your opportunity to finally vent loads of stuff. Get up here Mark. It's nice, isn't it? Isn't it pretty in your park? It's ever so lovely. It is great park. I've never lived anywhere with a park quite like this.

Yeah, it's some. And in the summer they have, you know, fun fairs and circuses and all sorts of business. Yeah. He's an introvert, isn't he? There's no doubt about it. Oh, he's an empath, yeah. He's a real, and he's, I like him because he's got a very gentle little soul. Yeah, obviously.

He really likes Mark. Yeah, I think we maybe see something in common with each other. He's got something attached to him there, is he? He gets quite frightened of noisy people. Yeah, I'm the same, yeah. Yeah, there's something to be said for, you know, you don't have to say a lot, you can just kind of hang out quietly. I'd like to think he says it better when he says nothing at all.

Well, that's just as well, because by the time of it, he always has said nothing at all, yeah. I think your daughters would love him. Is it two daughters you got more? No, just the one daughter. You got one daughter? You got one daughter. She's very unfazed by dogs that even ones that was big enough to knock her over.

Yeah, again, I don't know quite where it came from, but ever since she was tiny enough to first manifest opinions, loving dogs was her. When she was about four and could just about right, my ex-fander, she's written a little post-it note in her bedroom that just said, I love you dogs. and that was an anonymous love letter. So I want to go back to your childhood mark and you had ambitions to be a writer that was always your passion really. It was really, yeah.

I think I only started doing stand-up because it felt like a way of being able to write and get stuff out there with the minimum of the minimum of hassle basically because it's something I've always liked about doing comedy really,

well, stand-up at least, if you're, if something pops into your head and you want to say it, you literally can. There's no, there's almost no filtering by anyone else. So that appealed to me because at university, I tried to get things published in, like, student anthologies, and I sent stuff to publishers. And I was already writing keenly at university, but I didn't really get anywhere. I had no idea how to get anywhere. So I just grabbed onto stand-up because it was a way of being able to express something creatively. The performance of it was like secondary to me really.

I just wanted to have some sort of outlet. And then after a bit I came to like doing it of itself. And I've always enjoyed doing it. But yeah, it was writing that I really wanted to do. And this was a sort of sneaky way of being a writer, I suppose. And you must have been pretty clever because you got into Cambridge. Very, very, right. Genius. Yeah.

No, I was just quite diligent. I was good at English, which was my university subject, because I knew, certainly at school level, I knew how to construct essays and just do the things they want you to do, basically. I think I got through my school levels, A levels. I mean, I must have been clever enough, but a lot of academic achievement is about just working out what they want and sort of giving it to know a thing, especially with art subjects. I knew how to construct an argument and things like that. And then at university, it was, that all kind of gets ripped up

because you almost had to start from scratch. And I felt really behind when I came to university as well because some people had done a lot more prep. They've had a year out. They've done a lot more reading. So going to Cambridge was quite a sort of academic culture shock. I mean, I didn't get involved in theatre or writing or comedy or any of it very much at first because that was.

was also quite intimidating. Again, if I had been extrovert, I'd have naturally signed up for all that stuff as soon as I got there. But at school I did like public speaking and debating and stuff. I wrote a school play that was on. I definitely already had those kind of ambitions. Having said that I wasn't a sort of here I am, here's the party type kill, I definitely was quite jealous of people that had more interesting stuff about them. So a couple of times I did make stuff up. There was one at junior school where I can still just about remember this. Some kids' dad had got quite seriously ill and they talked about it in assembly and he got loads of attention, including attention from girls. And so I told everyone in the playground that my dad had died and come back to life, which, you know, unless you're the son of Jesus is very different. And even then, of course, it's quite controversial, or Lazarus, I suppose. I can still remember saying it, because I remember we were having a running race, and you had to be first to touch the wall.

I remember the feeling of touching the brick wall, and then making this claim. And then I also told my, I wrote about my family thing, like you have to do when you're at the school. And I, oh, hello. There was poo on it. Oh, dear, leaf, but with poo on it. Oh, it was on Ray's bomb. Okay.

Ray, this is going to really put Mark off. Well, this is the kind of thing that, no, you expect this. And again, if you've had kids, you sort of, this is no different from, Sorry, Mark. He's had a bit of an accident, Mark. Yeah, I don't know if it counts as an accident if you're not wearing clothes, right? From his point of view, he can sort of just poo as and when, really. That's how I feel dogs sort of go about things, different from being a person. If you were I did that in the middle of the park, it would be, like, much harder to come back from.

He does this, and yet this won't be marked down in his diary as the most shameful moment of his life. I doubt even think about it as he nods off to sleep. In fact, we would if it was us. He's already on the pole, as you can see. Yeah, which again, you or I would require more time to sort of get our self-esteem back, I think. And have to clean ourselves up? I think so, yeah. I think you'd certainly be thinking about a shower before you went out on the town properly.

But no, he's very resilient dogs. My dog has got excrement smeared on him, and he's going up chatting up other dogs. Yeah, but again, maybe other dogs have different expectations. You wouldn't do that with a girl. Well, you ruined, I was really enjoying Mark's thing. Yeah, I wrote a thing about my family and I told, I claimed in it that my grandfather was from Fiji

and had played rugby for, I was going to say professionally, but wasn't in those days rugby, but still had played it like represents Fiji at international level. I drew a picture of him like scoring a try for Fiji. I can only think I'd been watching rugby on the TV I did, used to watch quite a lot of, well I still do

watch a lot of sport. Weird lie and very easily debunked unfortunately because at the next parents' evening my my teacher said to my mum, fascinating about your father and obviously there's a little bit of confusion. My grandfather in fact come from South Wales. So, and obviously, I mean, yeah, most people, if you had Fijian grandparents, you'd expect to at least look a bit different from me, I think. It was not an easily sustainable life. I should have just even gone for Australia or, but I think it perhaps is something to do with just wanting to seem, seem more interesting.

to people. I think I probably looked at the, when it came to writing those all about my family, all about my holidays, pieces that you have to do a lot of it at school, I think I just had this sense that it didn't add up to that much. I didn't have many show stopping. I remember I had friends whose mum was from Poland and I was quite jealous of that. So when you're at university you got into comedy as you say, did you join the footlights? actually I didn't really formally join I felt like to do like open sort of open mic type things which I would sometimes get involved in

but I didn't properly get into it until my last year well the very end of my time there and then there was a touring show which the director encouraged me to audition for and I went for it and got into it and that's how I met Tim Key and came into contact with a lot of people who became important in my life. Until then, Footlights had seemed kind of an intimidating arena to me because it was all

well, again, it was about confidence, basically. A lot of people that were in it were just people that naturally assumed they'd be good at comedy. And also, most of it wasn't stand-up. I still wasn't doing stand-up until, really, until I'd kind of left. But it felt like, it set me on the road to doing this in a way. But it also, I mean, that was a comedy, like a sketch show with five other people and I enjoyed being in front of audiences but didn't love the intensive rehearsals and having to stick to stuff the script having to be as disciplined as actors are so I think basically being and that taught me that I'd like to do some sort of comedy but I'd like to be on my own doing it a lot of the time you did

some gigs there didn't you I did my first few I did one in it in the student union one at student ball but and it was kind of it was enough to give me the taste for it because that all went quite well but then I was most mostly doing jokes about the university and the college and incredibly specific stuff, which is the sort of thing that is funny to your mates. But I hadn't tried it. I knew in the bigger world it would be different. But again, I did like it.

I liked the feeling of being out there on my own. And obviously, if you try out, stand up and it goes, well, it is a pretty intoxicating thing, the feeling of getting all the loves for yourself and just being independent and of anything else. and it's a buzz that never really leaves you. But I still didn't think I would, I couldn't really imagine doing it professionally or in any serious way. I just kept on kind of entering competitions and looking for opportunities and seeing how far I could push it. I still feel like I sort of just fell into the whole career area. But a lot of comedians do, do feel like that of my age, I think.

Not so much now because a lot of young comedians are more sort of strategic now and have more of a career path. just because the industry is much more well defined these days but when I was coming through which is 20 years ago it still still was just about an era where you just sort of had a go in it and saw what happened and then maybe someone signed you up and things that yeah so I most of what happened to be in the first almost 10 years of my career I didn't really feel like I'd planned any of it I just pursued the next thing endlessly there were not as many communities coming through either at that time it was less competitive I often think it's really

tough now for new racks. It still was tough I suppose but... You're very, very self-effacing. Yeah, I think I was good. I was good enough to, I mean, do well in the competitions and kind of stand out and open mics and things. But yeah, the whole circuit was a bit smaller, so it wasn't too difficult to get. I like that quality though, because I think... I tend to think most comedians have got a degree of humility about what they do because we're all, we've all been through bad gigs and difficult times and so there's a degree of gratitude for being able to do what you what you do like when you get to a certain level but that said I mean I suppose the trouble

with it is a lot of comedy is about being your own product like you have to you you live or die by whether people like you and are impressed by you on some of us it's quite easy to fall into the trap of thinking you have to be self-promoting the whole time not just in your work but like in the way you talk to people and some people become very alpha as a result of that because they feel like that's the only way a comedian can act I suppose and again as you said it does really work people as well some people's sheer desire and just their energy of being successful does translate into success but I was just never that person and and also again don't really

like hang out with people that much they're like that it seems like you had this period after you did incredibly well at Edinburgh and you were just being nominated for and winning awards all over the shop and then it was it seemed to me like you went fairly swiftly into the panel show world yeah too swiftly really because I well yeah I didn't really feel like I was much good at those shows or like doing them that much but that was just what you did if you were doing well in comedy at that point yeah like even now I he bad panel shows are different now as well TV is different but yeah at the time It was a real vogue of mock the week and A of 10 cats and those sort of shows.

There was basically an expectation that if you were a good stand-up in a sort of Edinburgh professional way then yeah you'd be the next natural step was to do that and then get more famous and it sort of did work I did I did build up a following as a result of doing those those shows but it didn't suit me anywhere near as much as it suited a lot of comedians because my style has always been quite kind of discursive and storytelling I was like a gag, topical gags type man. So I was trying to sort of shoehorn myself into a thing that didn't really fit me in a way. And I did that for years, just like taking on gigs or jobs that I wasn't that suited to

because of a fear of turning anything down. You write really interestingly in your, well I say you did write it, but it's some, I listened to it on Audible. Eight Deaths and Life After Them and it's an audiobook and I really recommend people to listen to it because it's memoir, but it's also, there's an element of self-help. And what I loved about it, I found it so inspiring. I really like that. Thank you. Yeah, the book is sort of about how, I tend to feel that, yeah,

a lot of self-help or self-improvement type stuff does, comes from the standpoint of, well, a writer who, or public figure, who's already in a normal successful and alpha and rich and is basically telling you how you could be like them. And often they have had hard, and their stories are quite inspirational, but I still feel like I wanted to write something that was more like, here are things I still struggle with

and here is how I deal with them because of things that have happened before. So it is, as you say, sort of a memoir and it kind of hopefully morphs into a slightly self-helpy thing, but I don't obviously claim to be a life coach or self-help expert or any of that. I just wanted to offer a few insights into how you can take on life's disappointments

based on having been in the career that is as up and down as comedy obviously is. How many books are... There are seven novels now plus this audible one. Yeah. Which is a lot, but I have been doing it right from the start since, you know, since I was a student, basically. Yeah. And during this period, you were sort of living the dream in terms of what, as you point out, someone else's dream. Yeah.

It was someone else's idea. If it was the movie of becoming a stand-up, that's what you were. were living but I don't get the feeling you were particularly happy. No, that's right because I was, you know, I was pushed into playing some like really big arenas that I wasn't ready for and couldn't sell enough tickets for. The TV shows I was doing were not really representative of what I did on stage and I couldn't quite get commissions to do stuff that would be more written by me or moulded by me. So yeah, basically in short, I did pursue a lot of stuff that as you say was kind of

of on paper looked like a really good career and in some ways was but wasn't intrinsically that satisfying to me and it is quite easy to as you say have a career which takes all the boxes and looks really good and your CV looks great it sounds great when you get introduced but in the core of you don't really feel like what you're doing is is really you well everyone else as well it becomes very invested in that idea of yeah that's right and then there's your family get together as well it's like what's the next thing what when we see on TV again what's and so there becomes this and again that's comes from the most well-meaning place but again it is if you're not careful you do start trying to be um someone else's or a collective idea

of you as a successful guy without necessarily holding on to the things that matter to you I definitely did that quite a lot in my late 20s into 30s really um it's only in the past few years I've probably settled back down into doing things which, or just feeling like I've got more control over and more that my career represents my own ambitions more. But yeah, it's difficult. Your managers just want you to be successful. Your family just want the best for you. As you say, your contemporaries.

Everyone, I've never come across much malice or Chardonfreude or anything like that. But I definitely, being sort of a people-pleaser, I've often tried to do stuff or look like someone who they want me to be, I suppose, is the simplest way of putting it. I'm very, very anxious about upsetting people or disappointing them in any way. So I frequently take on things that I don't really want to do, not just professionally, but just like, you know, I'd rather do something that put me out quite a bit than face up to the difficulty of having that conversation. So would I.

Yeah, right. And you know, that that's like quite a nice character trait, but it also lands you in all sorts of shit. Are you the sort of person if you, let's say you got a text from a friend inviting you to something and you really didn't want to go. I would spend an hour composing response. Oh, I am that sort of person, yeah, and I'd quite likely still go. I mean, yeah, I certainly, I definitely, it's a quality which can be really generous as a person but which also leads to, again, more problems down the road. Like I often end up disappointing people more in the end, because rather than just saying a straight no, I try and do the thing they want and it doesn't really work out. And this is a classic, you know, people pleasing sounds like a fully positive trait, but it can just mean that you haven't got the guts to disappoint people outright.

So you just try and sort of half-ass it and then please no one. I envy people who just say no to stuff or walk away from things and say I'm not doing this anymore. and are able to just draw a line under things because it's not really my temperament. I just try and keep a foot in it. Like say no, but in a way which still makes them think I might. Like if I, with this, I mean, I wanted to do it. This is easy.

But if someone asked me to a podcast that I didn't want to do, I'd be very unlikely to just say no. I'll say, oh, I'm busy at the moment, but maybe in three months. And then, so of course they come back in three months and you end up doing this stupid dance. And it would have been healthier just to say, I don't think I've got time or it's not really for me.

And I know people who are much better at that, but I don't seem to be able to risk disappointing people. So, and as I say, that's worse because then you end up saying no five times until they give up and it would have been better if you just... Where does that come from that need to be like? Well, that's a question for a therapist, I suppose, but yeah, I don't really know, except that obviously part of it is amplified by being a comedian because your whole job is to try, I mean, not all comedians trade off being like.

exactly on stage, but you are, you're looking for people's approval, I suppose. Your job is trying to impress people in exchange for laughter and applause and stuff. So I suppose some of that can easily rub off on your actual personality, but I think I've just always been that person as well. Like my dread of having people think badly for me is quite intense. Even on very small levels, I don't like disappointing my kids if they want things. I'm just really soft, basically. But yeah, again, it leads to a lot of compromise.

It leads to you, if you're not careful, not being honest about what you. want or shutting down parts of you or whatever so it's not yeah I think being a people pleaser is a very um it's a very mixed blessing basically if you're not if you don't keep a rain on it then you end up spreading itself really thin you'll know this and being sort of lots of different things to 18 different people but you can't fit it all in I see it all the time I have friends who are very good at just um saying even to even to people close to them just saying I'm not yeah I can't do that I'm not gonna do that and no one if you set a precedent that that's

what you're like everyone respects that oh we could sit on one of these logs mark so oh we sit on the bench what do you prefer the logs in the sunshine yeah the sunshine seems nice yeah so tell me um you wrote about this bad period you had and I want to know how you kind of got through it it's an ongoing process to try and come out the other side of things like that I think yeah I had I felt very dissatisfied and down with everything in my early 30s and I was still outwardly reasonably successful, but it wasn't just, it wasn't really working for me internally. And I still have periods like that all the time.

I think the way you get through it is really, I guess, just to surround yourself with people that you trust and that love you and just support you. I had a really supportive partner. And I just kind of, yeah, I think it's quite easy to wrap yourself up in retreat. further and further into your own brain, especially if you are something of an introvert. And the way to get out of hard times is nearly always through other people, I think,

and what they can give to you. But of course, it can be quite hard to sort of open yourself up to other people when you're in that frame of mind. It's why people find it hard to talk the way out of depression and stuff, because it can sort of sap your energy and make it feel that you don't want to talk to anyone. So if you know somebody that's in a hard situation like that, it is sometimes not enough to. just say oh I'm here if you want you sometimes do have to dig them out a bit and I was lucky to have people who did that for me and I'm still in the process of trying to become truer to who I want to be and what I want to do I suppose like prioritising the things that

make me happy the phrase do more of what makes you happy is you see it on like bookmarks and stuff and it uh it is a cliche but life sort of almost is as simple as that really try and fill with the things that make you happy and avoid things which make you unhappy even if other people are telling it. Of course you have responsibilities. You can't just, if what makes you happy it's just going around trashing people's cars, you can't really do that. But if you can find things that make you happy and which are not hurting other people, I think you're not far off being able to do what life is about. Not always easy, of course, to do that. I want to know about your talk, Mark, because I can't wait to come and see it and tell me

what inspired this. show? This can't be it. It is called that and it's kind of about well what specifically inspired it was doing a getting an app which predicts your life expectancy and answering a series of questions to find out how long I'm going to live and the answer is 78 it caught this app so not too bad it was something I did in the sort of depths of the pandemic when I was just had more time to think about life and death and I would have liked basically and so the show is partly about getting to 40, which happened to me a couple of years ago now, but it was at the start at the time,

it was at the start of the pandemic. I just turned 40 and it felt like a odd life landmark to have at a point where the world was just shutting down. So the show came out of that strange period of my life, I guess, basically. And it's sort of about how to get the most out of life and make the most of the time you've got, given how difficult it can be to get all these things right. I saw I haven't seen you live for a while but I saw you Adam Kay's a good mate of mine

and you were doing the same night when he was at the Apollo you were yeah I supported him that is a while ago now and Adam of course you were brilliant Adam in case you're listening to this and what about me

but honestly Mark you were so funny I mean I had that sort of laughter and I had it for you as well Adam I'm sorry but I had that sort of love to You're really covering your bases with Adam here He's got a nice house.

Oh, I know that, yeah. He's a good friend to have. And I like my weekend breaks. Yeah, no, you certainly don't want to... No. You can't throw all that away just for... And free medical advice, you know? Oh, yeah, I get medical advice from by tax relatively often, yeah.

No, there's absolutely no doubt. You want to stay on the right side of the mountain care. Of course it is. So you're absolutely right to be as careful as you are every time you mention it. Yeah, you know, that's the thing. Doing live comedy being on stage, which is why it's so nice to be able to tour again. You do... you're reunited with what you sort of got into it for in the first place, really,

which is just the, yeah, just the thrill of standing up in front of people and making them laugh. You can lose sight of that when you start trying to shove yourself into different TV formats and other different things that you're not suited to. I presume things like Taskmaster, that you enjoy that? That was a great experience, as it is for basically everyone. And there's the odd show like that that kind of celebrates weirdness and, you know, that takes a looser form. But Tasmosters is kind of a special example.

I mean, there are other TV shows that I've enjoyed doing and still do enjoy doing, but live comedies where you are just fully yourself in front of an audience and kind of in charge of a whole evening or even if it's something like that with Adam, at least in charge of your bit of it. And that's kind of what I like most. Again, that's what you start doing stand-up for

just to be one guy doing something funny in front of an audience. And you can forget that as you get consumed by ambition, you start doing that. there's a yeah I think TV encourages you to chase huge targets without necessarily staying in touch with what you wanted to do it really works for some

people like if you're the sort of comic that well certain comedians and certain personalities just lend themselves really well to to TV and if you're fortunate and you find a TV thing which really works for you then I'm certainly not saying that

you shouldn't aim for TV or any of it but yeah What you should aim for is doing stuff which you're comfortable with and which you feel represents you in the best light and it's what you want to do. It's as simple as that really. Your career should be what you want to do, not what people are encouraging you to do. And it can be easy to forget that. And your last book, Contacts, which came out, was it last year? Yeah, before, maybe.

It's 90, 2020, yeah, yeah. Which is a brilliant book. And it's such a fantastic premise for a book. It's a hook, yeah. It's about a guy who sends a text to his whole phone book saying he's going to kill himself. Basically, he's how the book starts. Yeah, and the novel follows the efforts of various people to sort of track him down and talk him down. But all of them, people with connection to him and some sort of reason to be guilty or worried about him.

Yeah, it's a book about, you know, human connection and the way that we're all sort of responsible for each other to some extent. And people just seem to respond to it really well, more than most of my own. books because I suppose it is something very personal and and also it did come out in a time when we were all quite isolated from each other just because of what had happened so maybe it felt kind of I'd written it before the pandemic but it did weirdly feel like it was sort of appropriate to the times we're living there because a lot of people have experienced you know probably more loneliness than they would have done and yeah which is why a lot of people have got dogs I suppose I've seen a lot of people have you yeah I've known several people who've got dog or other animal during the um like an unusually high

ratio I think and I think it is something to do with that. They're really good for mental health, Mark. Yeah, so are here, yeah. Well, you're still just angling for a bit, aren't you? Let's see, let's see how we go. And you write really beautifully, but also, I think your characters are so strong as well. You know, you understand character,

and that comes from being a comic, I suppose, that observation and you're interested in the psychology behind people. I hope so, yeah. And it just comes from being a person that's interested. than other people I guess as well. That's what I've always tried to be. It's sort of why I wrote books, I think, just to explore human behaviour

and where it comes from and why we are like we are. Do you cry, Mark? I suspect you're quite okay about crying. Yeah, I'm okay about it. I can't think of a time, like in recent, particularly recent times, but I definitely will do, yeah,

I'll have a cry if the occasion calls for it. And you've had therapy? Still am doing that, yeah. Are you? I do that. Do you think it's useful? Yeah, very useful. It's only been a few months and I think it is a kind of long haul to get.

But I always worried that it wouldn't be useful or that it would be too hard to find the right person or that it would just not work remotely because I've actually done it all on Zoom and stuff. But I have not found any of those things to be a real problem. And it is just kind of like a sort of a mental workout, but a healthy one, I think. Yeah. I think it's something

that most people would benefit from in some way, just examining yourself and your thoughts a bit more. The one benefit I've had from it is really... It doesn't stop me reacting in the way I would have reacted to things, but I sort of understand the origins behind it. Yeah, that's right. I think it's about being more familiar with your own thought processes and patterns, and then if you can see those coming, that's half of the battle, isn't it?

But it's healthy to be made to challenge your own thoughts and feelings more, I think. A lot of us could do with that, I reckon. Come on Ray Raymond We're going to say goodbye to Mark now Have you had a nice time with him I think we've had a pretty nice time together on the hole Yeah

He really gravitates towards your energy Well I'm glad to hear that I wish that I would work with more people But it's been a pleasure to meet you Raymond It's because you're gentle Mark He likes gentle people Yeah not all dogs seem to be in the market for that But he we're kindred spirit

Oh Mark I love meeting you Say goodbye Raymond Bye Raymond nice to meet you And see you again. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.