Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Martin and Shirlie Kemp

Episode Date: February 10, 2020

This week Emily goes for a walk with Martin Kemp and Shirlie Kemp and their toy poodle Pops. They talk about their first date 40 years ago, their friendship with George Michael and finally performing together for their new album In the Swing Of It. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The great thing about being a dog owner is you stop caring. Look at this. You stop caring. Look at this. I know. Oh my. So do you have to bath him every time? Maimon.

He looks like something out of Doctor Who. Oh my God. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a stroll in London's Kenwood with one of Pop's most enduring and successful partnerships, Martin Kemp and Shirley Kemp and their toy poodle Pops. I'm not sure these two need any sort of introduction. It's Martin and Shirley Kemp. for heaven's sake. But just to give you a quick reminder, they met 40 years ago when Martin

was the handsome bass player and Spandau Ballet and Shirley was the glam blonde singer in Wham. Martin went on to become a hugely successful actor starring in the craze and EastEnders, while Shirley became a devoted mum to their kids, Roman and Harley. And now for the first time ever they've decided to perform together. They've released an album called In The Swing of It, and it was fascinating chatting to them both about how they first met all those years ago. they told me about George Michael coming on their first date, the really tough time they went through when Martin discovered two brain tumours, and why they're both fanatical dog people.

Do check out their album, by the way, in the swing of it, which is really lovely. And you can also catch them live at the Birmingham Symphony Hall on February 16th, and in Manchester at the Bridgewater Hall on the 23rd. I really hope you enjoy my chat with them. I love them. I'm moving in. Here's the Kemp's.

This is our always is there. This is only real life. I'm so excited. Look, Shirley's steaming ahead. Is Shirley the main dog walker, Martin? Be honest. No. Absolutely not.

No, it's a job that we both love. I would say Martin's more persistent and he does like two walks a day. Yeah, it's because I know that when the dogs go out, the happiest time of their day and the thing that they look forward to, the most in their life, is their walk. Yeah. And you can literally see their face go from being really solid to being really happy.

One of our dog literally smiles the whole walk. Yeah, you can see them smiling. So dog walking isn't, isn't a chore at all. It is one of the biggest pleasures in my life. Well, you say that. You haven't been on one with me yet. I can soon change that opinion. No, it is the biggest, it's the biggest pleasure in your life because you see how happy they are.

Yeah. And I always find their sort of curiosity. and enthusiasm for the world. It makes you see the world slightly differently. Also, it's a big chance. You know, I always feel like the moments that I daydream the most and get the most done in my head, you know, because like the work that we live in,

the work that we do is a lot about daydreaming, isn't it? Yeah. That's how you create things, ideas. And the biggest points for me in my day that I daydream and get more done is if I'm in the bath or if I'm, walking my dog oh I like that

he's quite low maintenance Shirley all he needs is a life and a bar I know I'm even lower I just need a walk I'm going to introduce you formally because I'm very excited to have my favourite couple ever don't tell any of my friends that on the podcast this is walking the dog

I'm Emily Dean and I'm with the very wonderful Martin Kemp and Shirley Hollerman shall I call you Holloman or Kemp I was Holloman a long time ago I don't yeah Kemp definitely Shirley Kemp? Yeah. How are you,

they? She's become more Hollerman in the last few weeks since we've been doing a record. Everyone seems to go back to me. Yeah, it shocks me. I'm thinking Shirley Holloman. Who's that? Oh, that was me.

Even when they first made the record, right? And we sort of went in to see this record sleeve the first day. This is, we should say, this is in the swing of it, which is your album, which is at the moment. Well, it was out of Christmas, just before Christmas. Yeah. But we went into the CD artwork and everything,

and it was Shirley Holloman all over it. I thought, where did that happen? Something you don't know. No, I think when you've got a family and your children are Kemp, you're like, no, don't leave me out. I'm Kemp. Well, we should say you two have been together for, it's, what do you mean? Nearly 40 years.

40 years. Yeah. And you married in 88, is that right? 88, so married 31 years. Yeah. And let's go back to the beginning. We're going to introduce your dog first. Yeah.

So we're at Kenwood, which is, you're North London people, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. And introduce your dog. So this is little Pops, Popsie, Pups, whatever I feel in the mood to call her. Well, her name is Pops. She's called Florence. Oh yeah, officially.

I called her Florence when I first got her after my grandmother. Oh, Pops! No one could say it. So that's why she ended up Pops, but she's officially Florence. She's absolutely adorable. She should have been flossy Florence though, because she's got a flossy head. So, um, and what breed is? She is a toy poodle.

She's beautiful. And I kind of grew up with my dad had every type of dog you can imagine. But my first dog we had was a toy poodle. Yeah. So I have a real thing for toy poodles because I know them. I know their characters. And what are their characters? They are really sensitive.

They love hugs. She loves getting up, jumping up on the seat. And I can really feel we're absorbing energy between us. Like she's giving it to me. I'm giving it to her. It's incredibly healing and therapeutic. And they're really loving and they're fun. I mean, she's quite an athlete.

You see, Shirley, Martin, can you help me? Your dog, please off. Boy dogs sniff a lot more than girl dogs. Is that what it is? Martin, can you confirm? What? Well, why is he? Oh, now another dog's got involved.

He's a sniffer? Well, I don't know. He stopped every five minutes. Yeah, he's a sniffer, isn't he? That's what I'm like when I go shopping. I'm just stopping every five minutes. He's three. He's three.

He's three. It's quite serious for three, I feel. Is he? Yeah. Come on, right. Oh, he's having a stretch now. Is that fur coat you've got on you? Yeah.

It's quite long. I know, but I do like it. Yeah, it's beautiful. I always wanted a dog that looked like Dougal. Oh, he's beautiful. You know, he's a lot. Oh, you've got one now. Oh, look, he's walking a bit better now.

He's a good on my wood floors, though. He could polish them up. Honestly, you want to put Raymond in the crafts. Well, my life. took, I took Ed Miliband on this podcast and he said, Raymond is lovely, but he does look like a toupee. Ed Miliband's called my dog, a toupee. So you guys, I mean, this is sort of was your manner, wasn't it, for a long time, but you're

still north, you're Hartfordshire, aren't you? Yeah, but we lived, we had our babies here. Yeah. Our kids went to school. Not in Kenwood, I should say. I'm not saying. I'm not saying. To be honest, practically, because we had a house on.

Hampstead Lane which backs on to it back on to this heath so in the Sunday evenings we would open the windows up and hear the band playing from Kenwood and and see the fireworks going up wow so it's so beautiful here isn't it I love it so Shirley and Martin I want to go back to the very beginning talk me through your childhoods it's like therapy isn't it and Martin you grew up in Islington is that right yeah yeah grew up in Islington my mum was a school dinner lady my dad was a printer but we had absolutely

no money we were as poor as you can imagine you know the outside toilet no bathroom it was a house that was shared by it was kind of like three-story Georgians Harris that that was the council house

that the bottom floor was some old lady that we never knew lived there and it was the rent collection station right so as you came through the passage, it would be where everybody queued up in the area to pay their rent. At the end of the passage, there was like that a little hole in the wall where somebody used to sit behind,

and it was like glass slats, and she would take the rent. And then you would walk up the stairs, and it would be our house, but there's no doors, you know, in those days on a different landings. So you got to the first landing, and that was ours, where we had a bedroom, two bedrooms and the kitchen, on them. Raymond's quite far behind. Come on, Raymond. Come on, Ray. Come on, Lay.

And then upstairs we had our aunts and cousins. And so, you know, it was quite a nice little community in there. We had a kind of family house, but it was council. And it was you and your brother, Gary. Me and Gary, we shared a bedroom there and we had nothing. I remember my parents crying over the fact they couldn't buy meat and dinner and, you know, So we had zero, yeah. And what was your background like, Shirley?

Because you came from, were you from Bushie? I was, yeah, from Bushie. I grew up on a council estate in a three-bedroomed house with five kids. So I shared a bedroom with my two sisters. And it was quite chaos, quite noisy. Yeah. But my dad loved animals. My dad was a huge kind of six-foot-six.

quite angry builder. Quiet. Yeah, he was like Zeus, like the god. Once he shouted, everyone knew about it. But his big, what melted his heart was animals. So we grew up with always had dogs in the house. Yeah. So I think that's where my passion for animals came.

But what I noticed was when my dad was around animals, he was much happier, became a totally differently humanised animals. But apart from that, I think he had terrible depression and anger issues. So it wasn't, it was a hard childhood in a lot of ways. And actually Shirley, what's interesting is again, that's something you would recognize now he might get help for, he might have therapy.

Oh, I'm so sad about that to think that you wouldn't have even mentioned the word depression. I wouldn't have understand how many signs there are of depression. Yeah. You know, but yeah, my dad here would have had a totally different life if he'd actually been diagnosed because he was really eccentric as well. Was he?

Yeah. But because he was big, people just got out of his way and let him do what he wanted. So that meant that when you met, would you say that you came from sort of similar backgrounds in some ways? Not really, because I think Martin's mum and dad were a lot happier than my parents.

Yeah. I don't think Martin experienced the kind of atmosphere that I'd grown up in. Yes. No, when I went to Rant to Shirley's first time, I'll never forget that the atmosphere was so bad. You know, her dad was sitting in the chair, but her dad, God bless him, I think he suffered dementia much earlier than we ever realized. You know, there were problems, and it was before kind of dementia was up front and people were recognising it as much. And I think he suffered from that really early on and people just weren't realising.

I mean, I remember at a time when he's a big old bulk of a man he was and he came downstairs and he'd just come out of the bathroom. Do you remember Shirley? And he was going out of the pub and he was wearing, he's wearing Shirley's mum's Charlie. Charlie, perfume. Perfume. But he'd covered himself in it. Yeah, and he was smelling like a woman. And he was like bizarre. And he was like bizarre. Yeah. All these bizarre things. And everyone said to him, what are you wearing? He said Charlie. But I think Maybe he thought if I wear women's perfume, women are like it. Noelle, I just think he had dementia much earlier on and anyone realized, you know. Yeah.

That he thought people were listening in on him all the time. You know, he thought next-old neighbours were listening. Yikes. We are literally in like a swamp. Ray, no, you're not going in that. I think we need to go out the hill. I'm worried about Ray because he could get lost in the swamp. Come on, Ray.

Come on, Ray. Come on, Shirley's sinking. We'll go here. It's going to be like a tarsing moving. This is my worst thing, mud. What is? I hate. Oh, I don't like mud.

It really goes through to my soul. I prefer mud to rain, though. I don't like mud or rain. No. If it's going to be winter, I'd prefer a really cold. I like... I like walking the dog in the rain, do you? I love it.

No, I think men like that. Yeah, Martin's quite hardcore on a walk. Yeah, but men like that, because they think they're being like a sort of bear grills thing. I'd prefer... That's what it is. You can get my camping night and everything. Oh, I'm Kenwood in Hampstead. Martin is camping night.

Yeah. Oh, it's been hell out there, Shirley. in NW3 today. Torch. I went to Anna Scherz, the drama school in North London, and I think you went there. I'm saying you went there too. Yeah. I would have been there

after you, I think. I was there sort of in the 80s. But everyone talked about you, and I remember seeing pictures of them on the wall. Yeah, I know Martin and Gary Kemp went here. Forget, get over it. I mean, I loved it though. You know, I honestly, Anna Scher's drama thesis, the first one, happened inside Bentham Court.

in Islington. Right. It was right across the road from my house. So Gary went there early on. As soon as it opened. But I was the shyest little boy you can ever imagine. Really? And my mum put me there really to get rid of my shyness.

Not to tow me into an actor. And so it, but when I went there, I loved it. What Anna was doing for the local area was unbelievable. Yeah. You know, it was all these kids that never. had another chance in life. She was given, giving them the idea that there was a way out. Yeah. It was all these kids that never had another chance in life. She was given, given them the idea that there was a way out. Yeah. And she did incredible things. And for me and Gary,

I honestly believed that Anna Sher gave me my personality. Really? She built my personality for me, Yeah. I think you're so lucky to have. That's one thing I would love being in a big family of five kids. Yeah. I was really ignored. Were you? I loved to dance, sing.

If I had had something like Anna Sherer open up where we lived, that would have been my saving grace. Did you think you were going to go into singing and dancing then, Shirley, at that point? Or did you want to be a singer? I wanted to be a ballerina, the first thing. And I was really double. She's got the legs. I could stand on my toes when I was younger. I would dream, play around, dance and everyone say, get out the way, sit down.

So I naturally think I should have been in and then can't get out now. We're locked in. Hang on, Martin Kim. Old Bear Grills can help us. Get your head life out. I've got screwed right up with me today. We'll have to walk around. Oh dear, we're trapped.

Will we climb over? We can climb over, yeah. I mean, I'd be prepared to. I'm happy to climb over. We're climbing over the fence. I'm not doing it as well as these two. They're country people. Mindshut.

What's happened to him? Oh, poor Ray. He just got a... He's carrying half a forest with him. He's four. He's on the carriage. He needs to go to the waxer. Come on, Ray.

So, yeah, so you had wanted to be a singer, you were saying. No, no, you wanted to be a ballerina. You know what? The one thing my mum and dad loved was music. So I got my love of music from my dad because on a Sunday he'd play all these beetles, every type of record you could imagine. And he taught me to jive.

Yeah. So that was my... other association with my dad, where my dad was in a good mood, was when he played music. So they are the biggest things I've inherited is my love for music and my love for animals from my dad. Because that's when he was in his good mood. So as a child, you picked that up. And my mum used to sit down and we used to watch all the gorgeous old Hollywood movies. And I'd literally feel every emotion and just think, I just want to be one of those actresses when I wake up. Well, wake up.

I'll look a chihuahua. Here's a cutie. Now, is there a chihuahua in your family? Yeah. Roman's got a chihuahua. Ray, your son has got one. I see Luna. So we look after her a lot.

Little Luna. We've had so many different breeds of dogs. I love it. So I love it when you see them. You know all their characters. Look, they're sort of playing. Pops was getting the confidence up with Ray there. I want to know your dog voices, okay?

Because this is mine, which is quite an intimate, embarrassing thing is how you talk to your dog. Yeah. And I say, good boy, Raywe, Ray, Ray, Ray, good boy. When no one's looking. So, Shirley, I want to hear your dog, please. So when I speak to Harley's dog, Oscar, he's Mommy boy, he's Mommy boy. And when I speak to Pops, it will be Pops.

You're Mommy girl. She's mommy's girl. So with her, I go much higher, and with the boy dog, I go, oh, you're a Mommy boy. I want to wait until the leaf bright that's safely gone now because Martin Kemp is not getting away without doing his dog voice on this podcast.

My dog voice? I don't really have one. He does on the slide. I talk to him the same as I talk to anyone else. I like it like that. Yeah, I don't think Mark, I think it's more of a girl's thing anyway.

Do you think that's voice? Like, I don't, you know, when the kids were babies, I didn't have baby voices. No. I don't have a dog voice really, I just talk to them like another person. Are you doing, you're very good with the poo bags, I noticed. Ah, you've got to be, haven't you?

But we do, you know, we try and get a... I worry about the poo bag, just okay. ...eco-friendly ones we get, no. I do. I get the green ones, yeah. I want to go back to when you guys met, and I know everyone is endlessly fascinated by your relationship. And what I find interesting about that is, I suppose it kind of says so much about how rare it is, in a way. that a couple stay together as a family that it's just oh my god they're in showbiz

and they're still together and the story of how you met is pretty famous but I can't get enough of it so I'd like to hear again Martin I know when you first saw Shirley because she was wearing a white dress yeah she was on top of pop's yeah I was at my mum and dad's house and I was sitting with my back up against the sofa on the floor you know how you do and watching told her pops on a Thursday night and wow came on doing young guns and it was the first time that I ever saw Shirley and she was wearing that beautiful white dress which one because I'm very specific Melissa captain was it the type one or the fish house I know yes it's quite short in the

front and she was wearing that and it was kind of like I fell in love through the television screen which was really odd but that's how it was you were in Spandau ballet at that point and you were pretty successful yourself, aren't you? Well, reasonably, you know. Oh, you were. We were only two albums in, you know, and the second album didn't do that well. You know, we struggled on the second album.

A lot of groups do, you know. And the first album did really well. The second album, we only had one hit on, and that was chart number one. And did you want to go into music from a young age? I was in love with charisma. I was in love with anybody who had charisma. And I didn't really understand what it was at that time.

You know, I was in love with Bruce Lee and Marlon Brando, Elvis Presley. And anybody that was shone out from everybody else, I loved. And it was kind of like, that's what I wanted. Yeah. You know, I didn't know what it was, whether it was acting, whether it was being in a band or anything. but I just wanted, I loved that charisma that people had. And so for me, when I was 17 and I left school

and my dad said to me, what do you want to do? My dad got me an apprenticeship in the print, which for my area, and for the print works. Yeah, and for my area and for the amount of qualifications that I walked out of school with, which weren't very many, it was a really good job. Yeah. So, but I knew that the happy people that I'd ever met in my life were ones that were doing their hobbies.

At that point, because you joined it was Gary, your brother that started the band, wasn't it? Yeah. And then he asked you to join, or he was a bit reluctant for you to join. Gary was reluctant. Yeah. It was my mum who told him, you know, take him with you or not at all. So it was... I like about that. Is your mum acting like a sort of lad's night out?

I'll tell you exactly what it was. I was Steve Norman, who was the saxophone player in the band. He was having his 18th birthday party, and I was standing next to a guy called Steve Dagger, who is the manager of Spandall Ballet now. And he said to me, completely out of blue while we were drunk, I want you to be in the band. And this was a dream for me,

because the previous year, I'd just been, like, the roadie. I'd been carrying their equipment, I'd been setting it up on stage, I'd, you know, watch and play. It's a lovely roadie, Shirley. I was so jealous you can't imagine. All I wanted was to be in that band. That's all I ever wanted. I used to go to bed at night, dreaming that I was in the band. So when Steve Dagger said to me, I want you to be in the band, it was like this massive door of opportunity that opened up for me. And I walked through it, you know, and I had to talk to Gary because, Gary wasn't that sure about the idea because, you know, he didn't want his little brother following them around. So, uh, well, that's interesting though.

I ended up in the band. Because I feel that Shirley sort of, that was similar for you in some ways. Yeah, I think we've definitely had very similar beginnings. Yeah. In the fact where we were in life, like I'd kind of been this person who loved all that dance, music, but was ignored. And there's Martin next to you. his brother who's in the band getting the limelight. Yeah.

So we both kind of wanted it. And then how did you end up in Wambos? Because you were dating. I'm sorry to mention this, Martin. I don't want it to be awkward, but Shirley was dating Andrew Ridgely, just so you know. Yeah, but he's uglier than me.

That was a long time ago. You see, I'm impressed that you can be such close friends with Andrew. I'm very, I need you to never exist anymore. No, no. Martin's so confident. Listen, I'm old enough from one. I'm old enough and wise enough to cope with more than you can imagine. I can handle when they were 17, 18.

Yeah, exactly. So what did, um... So, was the initial, really the real truth of it was that George, me and Andrew were incredible friends. I'd kind of been this punky girl before I met them. Oh, really? So they kind of thought I had this edge to me and I drove a car and they were younger. But all three of us really just got on and just loved music. and we'd go to George's bedroom

and they were in this band that wasn't working called the executive but then what we would do with make up dance routines in George's bedroom and then we'd go to this club and George and I or George and Andrew would dance to like a new romantic heaven not heaven 17th human league

don't you want me baby I remember that song so much dancing to that and that just formed such a deep bond for us oh my goodness This is Squelch. Look at the fuck of me. Give me a minute, I'll get my crampons. You'd lost the plot that we were doing the interview.

You walked off. Well, I was starting to sink. I started to tell my story. No, I know, but I was sinking. And you walked off, as if you'd had enough of lost. Charlie, I was just about to call for help. The great thing about being a dog owner is you stop caring. Look at this.

You stop caring. Look at this. I know. Oh my. You have to bath him every time. He looks like something out of Doctor Who. Oh my God. How dare you, Martin Kemp?

That it does, though. I'm just sent with all this mud on him. He's beautiful. Way, way. Oh, my God. Oh, look, there's a. We're picking all the bits out of you. Yikes.

I don't think. We're going to have to take you to the groomers. Yeah. But those little Furby things that Doctor Who had in the 70s. Are you like a Furby? No. That had a silver ball in them. Come on you.

So, um. Do you even bother with my story? I don't know. Let's just forget my story because it's not very good story. It's not very good. Should I move forward a bit? Anyway, so what happened? Yeah.

But I always, I saw a picture of Martin in a magazine. And I was like, oh my God, who is that? He's not only good looking, but I always say this and it's repetitive, but he looked really kind. And I remember laughing when I think I said to George, oh, God, looks really kind. Oh, don't be stupid. He's just good-looking. They're, you know, good-looking people look kind. I was going, no, no, it's not that.

So then I became a bit obsessed with asking every photo shoot. Then, WAM got, you know, we're on TV, etc. And we used to do these photoshoots for magazines. I used to ask everyone, do you know what to come? And then one day, I said to this photographer, do you know how much? He went, yeah. I said, do I really like him? Where does he go?

Where does he? And he said he goes to the Wag Club. So we were starting to go to the Wag Club anyway because it was kind of, I just drove everyone up the wall. Excuse me, anyone I'd pass. Excuse me, do you know, Martin Kemp? So I went to the Wag Club and I saw him. We all went to a premiere at a theatre.

And my friend said to me Spandau out here. But that night I had no makeup on. It's quite tomboyish, wasn't very girly, despite the dress. I kind of naturally just wore trousers and all the time. And Martin was there that night. I'm getting out of breath now. And he gave you his number. He came over and he had more makeup on than I did.

He had more hair and hairspray than I had. And I was like, oh no, I don't know he wore that makeup. But it gave me his number. But it was 1982. Yeah. It's what pop stars wore in the 80s. It wasn't like new romantic makeup. It was like I want to be Elvis makeup.

Liberace. Yeah, it was more Liberace. No, it wasn't liberal. She was Elvis. So he gave me his number and I kept that number because in our days, once again, we didn't have mobile phone. So if you called this number, it was the house landline. Yeah. And normally the parents would answer it.

And George gets sent to me, you've got his number. I can't believe you're not calling him. I was just so shy and scared and thought, oh, he doesn't really want me to call him. Anyway, so we're at George's house and he ran to his sister's phone, dialed the number and just handed me the phone. we've got to do this, you've got to do this. I think because he wanted to be friends with Spandau because he was a massive Spandau fan. Yeah.

So it was a kind of bit of kudos for him as well. And Martin by Martzid. And I thought, oh, how many girls must be calling to speak to Martin? I thought, I'm just another girl calling. And I said, can I speak to Martin, please? They're sitting on the bench for a bit. Oh, nice, yeah, let's go. Martin came on the phone and went, I'm so glad you called me.

and I just felt this light go on, like genuine, he really was genuinely pleased I called him. And then you went on the first date and George Michael came along on your date, which is rather strange. Well, it wasn't strange because I lived in Bushie with my parents, so I had to drive all the way up to London

and I didn't want to go on my own so I said to him, would you come with me? And him being quite a spandau fan, I think he was quite keen to come. Because he didn't know anyone famous. You've got to remember here, the truth of it is he wasn't the George Michael at that point. Yeah, he was up and coming. He was Shirley's mate. Spandale were bigger than us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was just a kid in, yeah, in Wham then. So he was quite keen.

But all he kept saying to me was, I remember I'm there and I only kid saying, I just want what you've got. I just want what you've got, Spandale got, I just want that. What was that, Martin, do you think? It was the success. And it was like the fact that recognition, I guess. And the fact that people would listen to our records in America. And he kept saying to me, I want that. That's what I want. And it was that critical sort of, do you think it was that as well? That idea of being taken seriously, I suppose. Well, I weren't taken seriously at the time.

I remember it clearly. And I remember deep, knowing deep inside how, I knew how talented George was. And I knew that he'd be there. You know, his music would go on a lot longer than most of the bands that were out there. I just knew that about him because it was just so obvious his talent. But I remember, yeah, people go and, oh, disposable bands like worm and... But he was very clever with it because what he created was he opened the door for himself with a bubble gun pop. But as soon as he could, he moved out and he was really clever with it.

Yeah. You know, he could have been really kind of played safe and kept going with that. But he didn't. He stopped and he moved into something more serious and stepped up. And that was his way in, which is really bright. Did you know he was coming on the date? What happened? Did I, I didn't know, no, I meant to meet Shirley. I didn't know Martin and I wasn't experienced in dating.

I thought we were going on a date. I thought me and Shirley were going on a date and it wasn't that at all. She'd brought her mate and it all become more like a hub mate. I was a bit intimidated by, you know, the whole spandau a lot. I felt kind of like the little girl next door to be honest. Really? Who's kind of met the pop star. Yeah, I did feel that. You see it's weird because I used to look at you on Toll the Pops and I think.

I thought, God, imagine being that woman. I really remember that. You were so sort of confident and legy and cool. And I wonder back then you don't realize whether that was a, you know. Oh, it's an act. Yeah. You know, from all those movies that I used to watch Doris Dave films and Greta Garb, you know, all the old Hollywood films.

I used to see how they acted and thought, okay, when you go on television, you've got to act confident. It's all a facade, isn't it? Yeah. Were you shy as well? When you were before, Whiz Spandat? I was terrible. When I was with Shat, Spandat. No, by then I'd shaking it off.

I was the shyest little boy you can ever imagine when I was nine or ten and that's why my mum and dad put me to drama school. But by then I'd done like a whole list of TV shows from Comedy Playhouse, Play for Today, all of those 1970 TV shows. I'd love to have had that experience that you had. But you know, I think what's interesting and I don't know what you feel about this, I felt doing acting as a kid, it is really good for your confidence. But in a strange way, what it does do, what it can do is get you used to being on. Do you know what you mean? That was the only thing. So it was like, oh, if I'm like this and bubbly and then they became a sort of slight

when you're on and when you're not on. Do you know what I mean? I can see that. But for me, it was about it became, I think I worked so much as a kid. I did like something like by the time I was 15, I'd like, 30 TV shows behind me and it became my personality. It wasn't on or off, that was me. And because I think, when I first went to drama school,

I didn't have that personality. So it just became me. That's when I was saying earlier, I said, I think Anna Sher gave me my personality. It tapped into that side of you that was probably an extra about wanting to come out. But I think also when you see people sort of not settling down in that way,

not having that stability and that family life, you know I expect you did have having you saying don't be a dick Martin I'm not sure you don't say you ever said that but that's important isn't it to have someone who knew you before all that course yeah absolutely is I think no the way that I look at mine Shirley's relationship is the same way that my mum and dad showed me how to I think my mum and dad taught me how to love yeah and how to be inside a relationship you know by watching them you know So I think a lot of that goes down to them as well.

We need to talk about your collaboration because I'm very excited with this and I love it by the way. I've heard it and it is so brilliant. And you've got fantastic, I forgot how beautiful your voice is. Thank you. It really is. It's amazing singing with Martin. I mean that's what, you know what the shock of it was because I'm obviously in the late 50s, didn't think I'd ever be working, just thought Martin's the one who works and I loved being at home with a dog. I really love being at home with the dogs.

It was such a shock for me to go back out and sing because I was like, well, I don't do that anymore. That's someone who I used to be. And as soon as I went in the studio, I just enjoyed it so much and realized how much of myself I'd actually closed down all those years. It's like, why did I close myself down to that? But I think really it was because when we were younger and in bands, there was a lot of pressure and we didn't have that pressure with this album. It was just seeing how it does.

It doesn't matter how it does. I think what the album did for Shirley, though, was more than just singing. It was, I think Shirley, as a person, had just plateaued, you know, and becoming, it was starting to become kind of stagnant, you know. I'm trying to take that as a positive. Hang on, I'm getting to the good bit. Stagnant? No, I'm saying you plateaued.

But I can tell you this, that when we did the album, Shirley's mojo was switched back on. And not just for, in a relationship, but in life. her mojo was switched back on all of a sudden she was more interested in stuff she was she's come to life again well I'm the creative person and I like the creative journey of you know the photos shoots the video the imagery choosing the music finding songs that you're singing with intention that means something to you not like these pop songs that are just endless you know you were creative person you were making music you were performing you wanted to have kids obviously and that's the form of creating and creating lives identities and then those kids go

off and leave the nest and then you're like that was a hard time now was a really empty time for me it was exactly that that's what I'm talking about when Shirley had plateaued when the kids left home I'm just saying you were stagnant I'm just I'm just saying I'm just I'm just I'm just just move on from a stagnant I am saying right that Shirley just plateaued you know the kids are left Him and his plateau. The Shredi had left home. The kids had left home. I was stuck on.

The kids had left home. The kids had left home and me and Shirley were both suffering from empty nest syndrome. Both of us were. You know, when Harley left home it was hard for Shirley and when Roman left home it was really hard for me. Because you don't just lose them. You lose all their mates and you lose all the noise and you lose all the... Bringing their schoolwork home and all of that. And for Sherry, you lose all of them.

For Shirley making the album, it was like putting the switch back on and saying, here it is, there's a new part to life that we never discovered. It was being connected again. I always say you lose yourself when you're disconnected, which is a much better word than saying stagnant. But disconnected from, you do disconnect. When you become a mother and a wife, you really disconnect from a lot of things and you can lose your confidence. Your identity is tied in with your family.

Well, also you can go to events with Martin and I could really feel how I was totally ignored because it's Martin Martin Martin and once I'd even got pushed out of the way and I remember thinking this is insane I did that by accident yeah I'm joking but it's not that I wanted attention but it is interesting so interesting watching people's body language yeah how you know I could see people like that around George as well and they suddenly fall over themselves to please him and then I could go to maybe to the same restaurant a week later and they totally have ignored me being rude to everyone and think oh it's funny how you were totally different

of the week. It makes you lose your confidence a bit because you kind of got, well, I've got nothing to say, no, I haven't done anything that interesting. I've done things meaningful to me. Nothing that's been on television. I mean, basically, people are very impressed if you're in magazines and television. It's very narrow-minded. But we lived in L.A. for a few years, and that is the ultimate. That is, yeah. That is a networking city. If you, if somebody sits next you and they can't get anything out of you, then they move on. To say you don't work in L.A. We went for a big dinner one night with a lot of actors. And someone sat next to me and said, hey, what are you doing?

I said, oh, no, I'm just having, I was pregnant with Roman. I'm having a baby. I don't work. Literally. The look on his face is, I've come all the way out for dinner. This woman can do me no favour. She is not going to get me anywhere in life. But that's how it is.

Yeah. If you say I'm raising my kids, it's like you've just gone to the bathroom. You know, I'm afraid of my life to give these two good life. You know, you learn quickly out there. As soon as you accept that, then, you know, If you go to LA, just bullshit basically. Don't take it seriously. Don't take it seriously.

Just, just that's how you. And that was after you did the craze. You got cast in the craze and then suddenly both your life's changed because you go to L.A. Obviously you're getting all these opportunities and then you had a bit of a shit time. Yeah. Because of, well, you tell me what happened. Well, we were out there. How long were we out there before I was sick?

Three years. Three years. Three years. Yeah. Three years. And then on the last year. Shirley, we were out there two years and then the riots happened. The Rodney King riots.

That was scary. And we got caught right in the middle of that and it was scary. You know, our house was on the beginning of the Hollywood Hill as you overlooked L.A. And you could just see like 1,500 fires and warehouses going up to smoke. There were shooters on the buildings. It was terrifying. We had like Harley there who was only three just coming up for three at the time. So it was terrifying.

And so Shirley, quite rightly, he wanted to leave. Yeah. And so I think as soon as the curfew was lifted, we got out of there. And that was it for Shirley. You know, she had enough. But also you had that lump on your head that I kept telling you about. Did you feel it? Yeah, I could feel this lump on his head.

And when we were living in LA and I said, would you go and see this doctor? And he, I don't know to this day if he did see the doctor. And he just came home and he said, oh, no, he didn't say anything. Well, no, he didn't know if you did go to the doctor. He didn't. He didn't say anything, yeah. I mean, it was just like, because it was very difficult. It came up really quickly that lump. And it wasn't soft tissue lump. It was skull. So it was the bone. So it felt like it was just your skull. But you could feel there was a little edge coming up on it. And that edge grew really quickly. And what it was was that the tumour that had been in there like 10 or 15 years had no more space to go down and pushed a brain out. away. So it started to come up and it grew into the skull. So the skull reacted as if it was broken and to protect itself and started to thicken. So as if you know when you break your arm you get a little bit of extra calcium on it. Yeah, because bones are soft fibre anyway, aren't they?

So it's just moving. Your body's trying to heal itself. Yeah. So it started to thicken. But that thickness, that started to thicken it went really quick. And within six weeks it was like huge. So we'd come back to England, we're literally living on this road. No, I was in Vancouver. Oh right. No, when we came back, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Martin, I said to him, please go to the doctor again. The lump's got bigger. I was even asking people to feel it. I said, feel my head. Can you feel a lump? And then he went to our local doctors. And they said, I want to feel my husband's lump? Excuse me. Ten pee a go.

Yeah. But I remember, I remember being in Vancouver. Yeah, but I mean, it kind of like rammed home to me. I was filming in Vancouver. I was doing an episode of The Outer Limits. Yes. Playing this scientist that had invented the cure for everlast in life. But obviously it all goes wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It becomes like all of a sudden he's 200 years old. And so they were pulling this ball cap on me in makeup. And as they pulled a ball cap on me, everyone went quiet and was looking at it. And it was just so deformed because obviously it just made it stand out. Yeah, of course. And so I flew home from there and I think within a day, I was having it taken out.

And I think the saddest thing out of all of that was that when I found out I had the brain tumour is that we had to sell this house in Highgate that we had, the one that we're talking about overlooking this park. Because I knew that I had to downsize because I didn't even know if I was going to get through it. So I had to just bring everything in and make everything smaller. So we lost that house and just to make sure that everything was in order in case I died, basically. God, how terrified.

And that must have been so frightening for you, Shirley. We sold it to Amanda Holden and Les Dennis. Dennis. Yeah. It was terrifying mainly because I had just had Roman was one and Harley was four and four and a half and my biggest fear was for my children to lose their dad. was the scariest feeling. And I kind of felt I went through a really angry phase.

I was furious. And I'm not the type, what I realized, I'm not very good at asking anyone for help or talking to anyone about it. So I kind of really went in and I got through, I must have bought every self-help book in the 90s that was out there. I had like, road less travelled.

Oh, everything. Deepak Chopra, I was into Louise Hay. I mean, everyone, every soul story I could find. I had to find a punctue. I was talking to Roman about this. He tells this great story one day when he comes home and he comes back from school, walks into the living room,

and there's like five shamans in there, blessing the house with his crystal bowl healing. And he says, there was a point, so Roman said you just didn't know what was going on. There were all sorts of people around there. My children went through, I mean, that's what's made them so kind of funny.

They, you know, open-minded now. You need, that's the other thing. That was my therapy. Yeah, of course. My kind of spiritual, Your self-help side really kicked in. My music was Alarnas Morissette. I sang my heart out to her songs because they were such a great release.

I wonder if, as well, it's interesting when you were talking about just growing up in a family where there was just tension. You carry stuff through like that in your life a bit where asking for help, do you know what you mean? I suppose I would feel, I think that's quite common. If you're someone who just wants to get on and look after things, you think, well, at least if I go to someone external, I'm not. bothering the family with it. That's exactly that. Do you know what I mean? That's what therapy is.

That's what you're talking to a stranger. My feeling was no one can help me because I was angry because I remember saying because Martin had two range him at the same time and I was angry with the surgeon when I said, why has he got them? He said, we don't know. That answer, my jaw just dropped.

I was like, what do you mean? I just felt like, why doesn't he know? I'm going to have to find out. So that kind of just led me on to thinking about the mind, body, spirit, why do we get sick? What's it got to do with our thoughts and our health? And I really opened up huge information. And I still think to this day all that, what I went, learn,

help me help Martin get better. Really? Oh, listen, without a doubt, you know, Shirley saved my life. Because, no, without a doubt, because I remember, you know, there was, I, Shirley just said I had two brainchins. You know, one, the big one on the outside that they cut away straight away. But while they were looking at that one, they also found one that was right in the middle of my brain that they didn't know how to get to. And so they said, let's leave it, see if it grows fast or slow, see what happens to it.

They obviously grew fast, right? So within two years, they called me back in, they said, we're going to have to take this one out. So I said, how are you going to do it? And Shirley was standing there in the doctor's with me. And he said, we're going to take the lid off the metal plate that they put on. go back down the middle of the brain, open that up. There's going to be all sorts of collateral damage while they do it. It's far too dangerous.

And he said, but we're going to cut it out. And so Shirley said, nope, we're not doing that. Did you? And I remember clearly saying, looking at Shirley saying, Shirley, stop, you're not a doctor. Let the guy do what you want to do. You know, like every man does, you know. And so I said, let's get on with it.

And Shirley said, no, we're not doing that. And so she went away, and her and George, phoned around everywhere looking for an alternate way to do it and they come up with a guy called Professor Black yeah I think he was in Boston

and he called me one night and he said there is a different way to do this he said we've never tried it before on the type of brain tumor you've got but if you want to give it a go it's going to be better radiation than having it because it's not invasive

and actually to have a second surgery yeah well when you've got especially because of a surgeon he said to it is he said to it is going to all sorts of problems. Yeah, like you won't be able to walk, you'll go blind. But he called me one night, this Professor Blackney called me and he said, I want to give it a go in a different way.

He said, the machine that we've got is only one in the world. He said that I want you to go to us, okay, I was going to go anywhere. You know, he said, it's 20 minutes from your house. He said it's in Bart's Hospital. So we went down there, didn't we? And they zapped it. And since then, brainchium, gamma therapy. Gamma knife therapy.

It's huge now. Isn't that amazing? Incredible, yeah. And you were saying during that period, that's interesting what you said about therapy. We can watch, we walk. Yeah, we want to. It's interesting because I'm a big fan of therapy. To go around this edge of a path here.

No mad here. Have you had therapy, you guys? Yeah, after that. Do you both have it? Oh, I've had real alternative therapy, real shame and stuff. I've been real nice job. I've gone to the world in my therapy. Martin, were you, I'm not making assumptions about men and general, but I think sometimes, not always,

men don't like to do it, yeah, I agree. Sometimes men are more reluctant. Yeah, and I was reluctant and Shirley kind of tricked me into it. She sent me to this fella and she told me that it was a massage, right, and it wasn't. Sorry, that is really. Yeah. So while he was, while he was massaging my back and my head, right, he started to do something. therapy and he started to talk to me and what I realised was I would go there

cry my eyes out every morning right and just open up to him he's really good to talk to that guy that masah is the guy is the guy is the therapist ringing up going Shirley I can't keep doing this massage thing I'm professional psychologist it was win-win but that is interesting and I think you and you were saying about crimes a lot of men do get associate that with weakness and I've never done that though I think you've always been, you've always been, listen, I grew up as an actor, you know,

where you try and make yourself cry. I think that's part of the attraction is that he knew his sensitive side and embraced it. Who's more likely to cry out of you two, do you? 50-50. Which one do you? When you argue, which I'm sure never happens. Never. If you were, who's the peacemaker?

Martin. Always. Shirley cannot say sorry. I've had it very hard to say sorry for years. Shirley's in a half over here. What do you do? I will go over to Shirley and I would try and say sorry and say let's forget about it. And Shirley cannot forget about it for at least two days.

No, now he gives me this smile and I'm like, okay, we're back on. It's all good. That's what we say. We back on you. We're back on. Well, she goes to stay with Harley, our daughter, for a day. And that you get over it. I'm not an arguer.

I don't like arguing. I don't argue, though. I just walk out. We don't argue that much. Let me get over it. Let me deal with it. We don't argue that much, do we? No, no.

Because I grew up with parents who argued constantly. And I was a very sick child, and I think most of my illnesses came from tension of listening to parents argue. And I think that's such a cruel thing to do to children is, like, create a household where the parents are arguing and shouts. But Shirley's really funny as well, and she makes me laugh all the time. So, like... Yes, I can see there's a very playful dynamic between you two. Yeah, definitely.

Do you know what to me then? I remember someone saying once, it was actually a therapist who said to me, that that's when what keeps a relationship going is that sense of, I suppose, respect for each other. Of course it is. And then they always said that word contempt. When contempt creeps in, that's when it's over. Yeah. And you can really sense it.

You know when couples sort of... couples sort of have a playful exchange and there's just a tone which is like I'm angry about other stuff. But we can laugh at each other. Yeah. Because and also because what we've gone through of Martin being so seriously ill, you stopped sweating the small stuff. Yeah. And you'll just have like your, my gratitude for everything was, you know, was doubled when when Martin was sick. If we argued, I should think, oh, it's so lucky that you're here that we're arguing. I just was so happy that he got through what he had gone through

because it was huge. I think that stays with you forever, you know. Yeah, it changes you as a person. You're never the same again. Any sort of trauma like that, I think you just... Because you hit, you know, you hit Rock Bottom. Yeah. And that was absolutely the lowest we could ever imagine going.

Yeah. So, you know, we didn't do it. It wasn't just my health. We lost everything. It was like starting the scratch. And it had financial. implications. Everything was hit. Your health, your finance, your future. But then you know who your friends are as well. It's such a raw feeling. Yeah. And you see life of what it really is.

And sometimes it's an incredible thing to happen to you because it's the biggest wake-up call you could ever imagine. And it keeps you grounded. And I think it definitely kept Marty and I grounded. And I think even my children experience, you know, from what they remember is their dad was sick. and how we stick together as a family. You said, Martin, I really respected how honest you were about Spandau Valley. You've told some really funny stories of it. You said your egos had just got enormous and... Oh yeah, of course.

And do... You leave the planet, you know. Do you think so? Yeah, of course. Yeah, you end up living in a bubble when you're... You know, we... I always think back in the 80s, you know, the two biggest bands were us and Duran Duran. Yeah.

And we kind of... What about one? No. say early on okay yeah pre-no I'm so you know I'm talking about proper bands no Martin but we were like no but we were like a classic band no hang on a classic band with guitars and drums and bass and that kind of band like the beatles yeah but then you went stagnant Martin yeah but we were like you know like the stagnant one I didn't have a range oh I'm going home in a minute go on

We love you. You know what I saw recently because I was so excited to meet you too. I've been a big fan of both of yours in your respective fields and well it's kind of the same fields but you know. And you know what I saw which really almost made me cry was there's a clip of your This is Your Life Martyr on YouTube and Shirley looking very glam in a lovely gown. Ghost dress. Is it ghost? Red ghost. And there was that bit at the end where George Michael came on.

And I almost burst into tears. Yeah, I can't watch that. I'm not surprised. He just, he said, I'm going to cry when I remember. Well, he was almost crying. He looked at me and he said, I'm going to cry. It was like he had such a lump in his throat when he said it. He came on and he said, I just want to say, Martin,

you're one of the most kind-hearted people I'll ever meet. And I want to thank you for looking after taking care of my best friend. And I was like, oh, my God. It's hard. It was so hard. And I could tell, I thought he's going wobbly, he's going to cry. And I remember him, I'm going to cry. So it's all gone now.

But, yeah. How does that feel? What a lovely tribute to have that with that friendship that you had. And I'm so sorry that you lost him because I feel with all of that, and it becomes his public figure and it becomes a thing. And you lost your friend. And that's awful. To us, he was just a mate, a friend, right?

And it's part of our family. And you lose someone like that. And it was the first time I experienced that you had that great. inside the house where usually you can walk outside and forget that grief. You know, obviously it's still there but it's not as bad. But with losing George, it was like you walked out the side of the house and it was even bigger because everybody else was grieving. I didn't want to leave home.

I remember I was at Heathrow Airport like six or eight, seven months later. This lady just came running up to me, hugged me so hard. She was, I'm so sorry and I'm thinking, who or what, why? And then she started talking about George and it was like, wow, everywhere if I went to the supermarket I'd have people just coming up to me going I'm so sorry I couldn't get away from it and in the end I felt like I just couldn't move the house for a while because people were now feeling sorry for me that I'd lost my friend especially after we did the Brits because it was such a heartfelt tribute to him from me Andrew and Pepsi.

Yes. I thought, oh no, I've even made it worse now because now people are feeling sorry for me and I'm I'm tough enough to get through it because I've had. I think in the other side of my life, I've really been well loved by my friends and my family, and I think that makes you a much stronger person. Yeah. So it was very strange experience that. It was really hard to get through, you know, because of that.

It wasn't like you could keep the grief inside your house, you know. No. It was everywhere. People always say that grief is like when love feels like it has no place to go. And I suppose people feel that even more with someone they didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. Because...

I understand it completely. But it's difficult when it's your mate. And obviously your relationship is very different. You know, that's a private personal relationship. So it's, well, no wonder you as such, he loved you and adored you so much as friends. Because you seem like very loyal, good friends. Yeah, definitely. I'm, yeah, we are.

We're very, and not many, he didn't know many people before he was famous that knew him, you know what I mean. So it's like feeling comfortable and trust is a big issue. Yeah. So you guys. What's interesting is that you're working together now, which I love, because you're doing the album, you're going on tour. You've got a couple of dates coming up. Yeah. Birmingham on the 16th and Manchester on the 23rd.

Doing the symphony halls there, you know, we're starting small. This is a whole like, as I say, talking earlier when I'd lost my mojo and gone stagnant. I'm now singing with an orchestra, which really is, you know, up the mojo. The other night. I'm really switched on now. The other night, honestly, the other night, right, when we were doing the Royal Festival Hall. Yeah. And I love that you can just throw that in.

Yeah, I know, yeah. I was coming. We had a 60 piece orchestra and I was coming on one side and Shirley was coming on the other. And I looked at Shirley in this incredible flowing dress. She looked absolutely stunning. And I thought, and I had this thought in my head saying, that's why we're doing it. And we were singing just the way you look tonight, which was so apt. And we chose that song.

Actually, it's Roman who said you and Mom, Dad, should sing that song to each other. Oh, the way you're going to be singing. I had this moment where I just suddenly became aware that we are singing to each other just the way you look tonight. And Martin's in this looking incredible in this tuxedo. I'm thinking, wow, this is so authentic. We really are singing this song to each other. It was a funny experience that the other night because it was just like we're singing to each other without anybody watching. How lovely, though.

And how nice to know that your best friend and your partner is with you all the time? Do you know what I mean? You know what? It goes back to that bit I was saying when Shirley got stagnant. Yes. No, I'm just talking. We're just talking about an important moment. We're going to run for the listeners.

We're under this little Ivy Arch in Kenwood and Martin used to be the troll in here. Oh yeah. And the kids, Harley and Roman used to stand at the end and they had to run in. Then he would be running. I'm just having a moment. This is what makes me tearful when I'm just. I have memories of my kids. So this little bit, Harley used to love it.

Because Martin had to be the troll and she has to try and run in this little archer in Kenwood. And it's a magical little space. I'm so pleased for you, though, that your kids seem really grounded, decent people. They are. Really grounded and decent. And not materialistic.

They've both got incredible work ethics, which I love. But they've grown up with that. They've grown up with real emotion and, you know, both Martin and I, our parents were real working class people and they had their grandparents when they were little. And they still kind of talk about, you know, how some of the sayings, what my mum would come out with, like, just hysterical. You wouldn't hear people talk like that anymore.

When you were in EastEnders, Martin, that was, that's a sort of level of fame which is actually very intrusive, isn't it, where it's daily? You have to... I feel like to... I think you have to remember as well how many people a week watch at a show. you know, 70 million people a night used to watch it when we did it. So it was humongous. You can't turn it off.

It was just the level above everything that I'd ever experienced. Great experience. Are we going for tea? But did you feel with your kids? Did you feel Shirley as well? That was like, okay, this is getting like, because presumably kids at school and things. That's when that starts becoming. It really affected Harley and we had to find.

They were both at state school in Highgate and then we moved to Hertfordshire because it was also nearer to where Martin was filming EastEnders so we could see her a lot more. And Harley was really affected. So in the end I had to put her in this tiny little private school. It was only 11 in the classroom because she didn't like the fact that everyone knew who her dad was. And that was her dad and she didn't like it. And they called him Steve Owen. So that upset her even more.

Whereas Roman had totally different take on it. He was really proud of his dad and thought it was fantastic that everyone knew who his dad was. Really loved it. Did he? Yeah, he dined out on it. Honestly, I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed Chatter to you. We're lovely chatting too. It's been lovely meeting, Ray.

I think Ray's getting cold now, isn't he? I know. I love your dog, and I think you're absolutely lovely. So I might have to give you a hug. I'm really sorry, I'm muddy. Oh, we did a group hug. A great hug. A group hug.

There you go. And Shirley came. I'm going to die. I'm so happy. It's lovely to meet you, too. Great to meet you. It's lovely talking to you. Wait, wait.

Give Martin and Shirley a clear. See you, Ray, Ray, Ray. Martin? He's a lovely boy. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate review and subscribe on iTunes.