Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Mel and Coky Giedroyc

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

This week Emily chats to presenter, actor and comic Mel Giedroyc and her director sister Coky Giedroyc. They talk about their respective dogs, Mel’s successful TV partnership with Sue Perkins and their decision to leave Bake Off, and Coky’s new film adaptation of Caitlin Moran’s How To Build A Girl released via Amazon. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

But Melly, you don't like confrontation, let's be honest. She really doesn't. So Mel will do anything to avoid it. Honestly. I'll leave the country. She'll lie. She will lie. Bare-faced lies are hilarious to witness.

This week on Walking the Dog, I chatted to act, I chatted to actor, comedian, presenter and total national treasure, Mel Gedroich, along with her very talented director-sister, Koki Gedroich. Now, I loved Mel and Cokey, but we're not quite at the stage yet, or I can join their family bubble. Give it time. So I call them from my Walk with Ray in North London whilst they walk their dogs out in West London. You'll get to meet and hear all about their dogs. I mean, you'll definitely hear Mel's. I'm just saying, Mel, yours is quite noisy. But I hope you'll also get to know both of them a bit better.

We chatted about their childhood, growing up with really fascinating-sounding parents and their relationship as siblings. Who backs down first in a row? lose the sulker, as well as their respective lives and careers. We discussed Mel's enduring partnership with Sue Perkins and what it felt like to leave Bake Off and chatted to Koki about her work as a director, including her latest project bringing in Katlyn Moran's book

How to Build a Girl to the Screen. And you can stream it on Amazon, by the way, from July the 24th. Mel and Koki were adorable. They just seemed to have that really lovely spark and intimacy and honesty that you only really get with sisters. And I loved the sound of their best. dogs. And boy, did I hear the sound of Mel's dog? So I'm probably going to move in with them. Either one will do. We could do it on a rotation. If someone could let them know, that'd be great.

I really hope you enjoy this week's episode and don't forget to rate, review and subscribe and check out how to build a girl on Amazon. Here's Mel and Koki. Where are we, Mel and Pitsanger Park? We're in the berbs. We are cruising around somewhere beyond the North Circular. way out in the burbs. And it's a lovely sun. It's a lovely sunny day. Although it's a bit nippy. There's a little, when the sun goes in,

there's a nasty little nip. And it's very, we should say, I should introduce you both formally because I always forget to do that bit and I get in trouble and people say, oh, this isn't very professional. Andrew Marr wouldn't do this. Andrew Marr doesn't have to pick up dog poo

every five minutes. I don't know. I mean, I don't know with personal. right um this is walking the dog i'm emily dean and i'm so excited to have these fabulous siblings on my show today i'm with mel giedroich is it giedrreich did i say it right listen emily it's it's gedroich but come on you're close do you know what i'm going to do it again out of respect sorry because i know your father had we'll talk about that but i know he took the name seriously the care of saying it correctly so it's mel getrogett i said

Is it wrong again? Say it again. It's Gedroich. Gerdroich. Mel Gerdroich. Hello. And Koki Gedroych. Yeah. I said either of your name's right, Koki.

You got mine right completely. Absolutely 100%. Hang on just a sec. Junie, come on. We're just searching for the dog, the errant dog. There she is. And you're with, you're in, is it kind of, it's Pitzhanger. is it? So is it kind of Ealing area?

Yeah. Yeah. Queen of the suburbs. As far west as you can get and still sort of pretend you're in London. Next stop, slough. Yeah. And do you both, is that both of your manner, even as adults, do you live near each other, you guys? Yes. We've always lived very, very close to each other. She says with a slight melancholy.

No. I love that though. I think it's really nice when the sisters live near each other. It's been amazing actually because we've got kids of a similar age. So between the four of us, you know, parents, one or at least two normally unemployed. So it was brilliant for childcare, wasn't it? Yeah, it's been amazing. And they've grown up really, really close.

They're almost like siblings. the girls. Oh, I love that. It's like the Walton's. It's so nice. Yeah. The extended family. We're within,

we've always been within about five minutes of each other our whole adult lives. It's kind of strange and amazing. Yeah. I love it. Do you know,

I think that's probably proof your parents did a good job. I always think when siblings get along, that's a good sign. Yeah. Yeah, we're close. There's four of us.

Yeah. Well, I want to get on to the others. I'm fascinated by them. but we need to introduce the dog first. So you have a dog with you, is that right? One each. One each. Junie.

Yeah. So Junie. So, Joaquy, talk me through your dog. So, Koki, talk me through your dog. Come on, I'll go. Mine is called Bobtail, and she is 15 years old. She was supposed to be a little roughty-tofty-tuff-ty-russle, and she was introduced me.

Mel's sniggering at that. I see it. Why a friend of males in fact? I feel really responsible for this. So my friend, I have this hilarious friend who I've sadly lost touch with actually that we used to call Gucci. And she was quite sort of an extravagant.

I love Gucci. Yeah. She was quite a brilliant person. In fact, quite an extravagant personality. And she bought this beautiful little white fluffy dog. I think she called it something like snuffles or something like that anyway. Of course she did.

She's called Gucci. Sam. And she said, oh, and Snuffles has got this lovely little family, there's pups on the way, and they're pure bread, something or other. So I told, I told Coke about it. And sorry, this isn't a very interesting story with no punchline. So the punchline is that we went, no, the punchline is I went all the way to Kent. Oh, you're too near me, ma. That's a good little punchline for me. Oh, sorry, sorry. We went all the way to Kent and it was a really, really rough family. quite scary

and they had a shed full of tiny puppies and they got one out a really really fat one and said we kept this one for you we called it baby and my son who was six said I don't want baby

I want the one in the shadows the little runt and the runty one was bobtail and obviously she turned out not to be a beautiful roughy tufty Jack Russell but an complete kind of mad mix of God knows what she's got really short legs big fat tummy fluffy white hair

she's like a foot store she's fleeced you though coat didn't they yeah 250 quid whoa you're having you on cokey no but I was so scared I'd have paid anything seriously it was it was dangerous Dan in case it's the idea that they said did not baby the one in the shadows your kids said I want the one in the shadow I know yeah she's But she's 15 and she's really sprightly. She's well sprightly. So there you go. She was worth every penny.

She's gorgeous. Mel, introduce your dog, if you will. So our dog is called Juno and she is a Bulgarian street dog. We call her a lurch viler. We think she's got quite a lot of lurcher in her. Oh. And a rot viler. There's a lot of rot viler in there.

And also Doberman and any other slightly dangerous dog, you care to do that she. She's... She's... She's enormous. She's absolutely flipping enormous. She's so sweet. She's got a ridiculous long... Do you remember those scary monkeys in the Wizard of Oz

that used to follow the Wicked Witch around? Yeah, but can I say very well dressed, even though they were scary, fabulous clothes. Oh, yes. I remember a lovely tailored sort of tom-thorn. Yes, wonderful belero coats. Oh, I love their clothes. All them are scary, though. Horrid.

Even thinking about them. Oh. Did they make a noise, actually, now I think of it. They did, didn't they? Didn't they make some sort of... Some horrid noise. But anyway, no, so Jeans has got a massive, long, scary monkey tail, very long spindly legs, a pinhead and massive rot viler jowls.

And she lurks around. She basically is just on the hunt for food from the moment she wakes up to the moment she goes to sleep. And she sleeps up. lot she's very lazy and do um bob tell and juno get on not really thank you all of you said yes the other said not really they do they should ignore each other totally ignore each other right now they're doing what we're doing they've got massive social distancing going on and they kind of look away from each other but they rub along you know they don't fight i've got i think junes is quite unslendly cobb she's quite aloof she's a bit of a snob quite high status yes we call

the duchess we call her the duchess you grew up in Surrey is that right yeah did you have animals were your family sort of your mom and dad's dog people no dogs mom and dad never had dogs they weren't really sort of dog people were they not not really I can't imagine them sort of out walking every day. Mum, maybe. Dad, absolutely not. He was an academic. He was very indoor orientated, wasn't he? Your dad, was he an engineer?

He did quite a few things in his life. And for a big part of the 60s and into the 70s, he was an aircraft designer and then a civil engineer. so he used to travel the world a lot. But he was a real, real academic. He was absolutely just loved having his head in books, loved lectures, giving them, reading them. He just loved academics.

Yeah. Do you remember some, I remember some holidays really clearly. We used to go to the Lake District every year. And literally, you just wouldn't see Dad. He'd be up in the bedroom with books. That was his time to just really chill out, hang out and get down with the books. It's amazing. Never saw him with the tan.

Never. Or in swimming trunks. No, no. Not or shorts. Never in short, no. Really? He was really in his head, wasn't he? Yeah.

And was your mom? Your mom was, was she a nurse? I don't know if he's a homemaker as well. But she, because they were four of you, weren't there? Yeah, she trained as a nurse. and got to, within six weeks of qualifying in the 1950s, and then married dad and didn't get, didn't take her qualification, didn't become a nurse.

They were really cross with her. Yeah, so, so kind of old-fashioned. But, but basically, you know, she wanted to be his wife and she wanted to have kids, didn't she, Mel? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I tell you what, though, now, as we are in lockdown, I really get a whiff of what it must have been like to be,

a 1970s housewife. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. Cleaning as well. Just constant. Listen, there's so much to do, isn't there? I hate cleaning. I hate cleaning.

I love it. Do you? I love it. I've become really into it. What bit of it? What don't you like about it though? Oh God, I love it. I hate the idea that it's going to be four hours of my

life. So like at 10 o'clock on a Friday, I just think this is actually in our house we share it. So it's an hour each. Yeah. That's not so bad. This has revolutionised my cleaning life. Seriously, no word of a lie. A battery operated hoover. Ah. It's really light. You can just carry it around with you. It's only the weight of a sort of grip bag or something. And it is absolutely brilliant. And it gets into all those corners. What kind of... Cokey, I think she's got... I think she's got...

These are desperate times. She's doing a bit of the old sponsorship without telling us. She's trying to get it in there, the old mention. Mel, the agent was on the phone. You just need to mention that Hoover at least three times. Sneak it in. Is it a brother and a sister you had?

Yes. Yeah. So our brother Miko is the eldest of the clan. And he is... How many years older than you is he? He's, I think he's nine years older than me. So he's what? Four.

Is he four years older than me? I can hear the treats coming out, by the way. Yes, the treat for Bobtail. Sit down. Sit, sit, sit. Hang on, June. He's on a way over, mate. Watch that like a ruddy hawk.

Sit down, June. Good girl. Oh, she's a good girl. She's a good girl. Good girl. Thanks for that, Cobb. There is something funny about hearing down the phone. She's a good girl.

She's a good girl. It's like a dirty phone call. all. So go on. So yeah, so Miko is the oldest and a musician, is that right? Yeah, he's a musician. He was an economist and is an incredibly brainy bloke, got two degrees, amazingly smart, and then just had a sort of massive turnaround in his life, aged about 40 and became a musician, set up a gospel choir. Wow. Sorry, that was just a cockapoo.

I'm out with my dog Raymond. Oh, Raymond. I love him, Raymond. I love him. I'm with Raymond. Well, do you know what was great, guys? We were walking out yesterday, and we met a dog who Raymond quite fancyed a male dog

because I think that's his way, which I proved of. And he said, I said to the woman, what's your dog called? She went, Tony. I like that odd dog. There's a Tony and Raymond, like two 70s cab. driver. Tell me about your sister as well because she's got she's got so many kids I can't

even believe it. Yeah, she's got seven. Like snow white. She's got seven kids and also I was about to say more importantly I didn't mean it that way at all. She's got two absolutely divine rescue dogs called Badger and Mr Todd. They are slipping they're flipping hilarious. Mr. Todd has got the worst underbite you've ever seen in your life. And Badger sleeps on top of Mr. Todd. He sort of straddles him and sleeps on top of Mr. Todd. So you didn't have dogs growing up, but all the girls have all ended up with dogs. So I want to get an idea of the sort of atmosphere, I suppose, growing up on your house. You know, you mentioned your dad was an academic and my dad was a bit like that in that he'd always be reading books and, you know,

was very, every thought was quite profound, you know, and articulate. And I just wondered, what did you feel as kids in that environment? What would you describe the atmosphere as being like? And your relationship and dynamic I'm interested here about. There was a lot of laughter. There was a lot of arcing about Emily, to be honest. There was a lot of, you know, we paint this picture of our dad, you know, as being very serious. Although he was, it was a very serious side to him.

But he also was. I mean, he loved his comments. there was always something going on it was a loud house there were loads of people passing through it mum was a very big socialiser yeah she was the really gregarious kind of very organised used to do dinner parties twice a week in the 70s do you remember coquivan and prawn cocktail and and polish food loads of polish food yeah lots of the guests and in fact lots of people coming through our house were Polish. Yeah.

And that's your dad's background, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. From Poland. Polish Lithuanian originally. Yeah. But they were strict though. They were strict parents.

Yeah. Strict and very loving. Yeah. No messing. We had two foster brothers as well. What sort of thing would they, I'm interested in other people's rules and effort, because we didn't really have any, but.

Manors. Manors. Manors, manners. Yeah. Oh, I mean, from, you know, making a guest welcome, never talking about yourself. We've made up for that, obviously, in later years. You have.

Asking questions of other people. Always asking questions. What other things? Table manners. We used to have to sit with really, really aged Polish relatives and just be with them for hours, not understanding a word they were saying. Do you remember?

Oh, my God. Would you describe yourself as quite adulted at a young age? Like I always feel we were part of the dinner parties. Do you know what I mean? There was no – and I quite like that. There was no sense of there being a dividing line between the kids and adults. Did you think that was true of your family? No, we had a big dividing line.

Did you? If there was a dinner party, we were literally upstairs peering through the banister, praying there'd be some really nice food left. Some of sneaking down. Scramps. It was a strict household. But it was really full of fun. Mel's right.

It was full of laughs. And we had two foster brothers as well for about three years. Was it six? Oh, no, it was all of primary school. So it would have been five years, yeah. Wow. What do you think that gives you coming from a big family? Like looking at how you both are an adulthood.

You eat really fast. Yeah. You eat really fast. Yeah. Because someone would nick it from your plate. Yeah. You didn't. I think mum timed.

a sort of an average dinner time in our house once. And it was under seven minutes. It was unreal. So that's for three courses, literally. And we still do, don't we, Mel? Yeah. It's awful. It's so embarrassing.

I know. I like that. People are shocked. They're quite shocked. And Mel was the last along and definitely the loudest. Really? Because you have to chip in, man. You have to chip in.

Yes, you have to. You have to make your own. space. Yeah, yeah. She arrived quite, she sort of bounced in to our family. I remember it. I was five. Really? Yeah. Unexpected. And what's your first memory of Mel arriving? Just she looked like a little frog. And she was a real tiny, tiny tomboy, basically. Always wore the same pair of shorts. Had very, very scrappy. little friends down the road they were always on their roller skates and bikes they're just very

sort of I don't know it was the 70s can you imagine it it was just like that's all we did wasn't it yeah and I remember I remember Coke who is five years older as pretty glamorous no the shoes were wedge

and high there was a lot of kind of middy skirt action going on. And a lot of sort of, I was quite obsessed with the makeup that was going on, the hair care. There was quite a lot of that, wasn't there? Yeah, we were different. We were different for a long time and there's a big gap. Yeah.

And then we kind of... The youth club disco, I remember that very clearly taking you. Dad and I used to take Coke and a posse of her mates of the youth club disco. You could barely get into the car, the smell. of Charlie. Charlie Tweed. And Tramp. It was Trump. And do you think that you, because I was the youngest and I was really close with my sister,

but there was almost a sense of, she was very benign and sort of slightly quieter, I suppose, but she would boss me around a little bit, you know, like we'd do plays and she would be the director and I would feel I sort of would be all right then. And when I've read about you two, I mean, obviously, Coco, you've gone on to become an incredibly successful director. Was that something that, was that a dynamic you recognise? Yes, I'm really ashamed to say. It was just, it's, yeah, it's really, really bossy. I was really bossy always. She says was. And there was this little, little assistant that arrived in my life. The runner. First AD, second AD. Yeah, the runner arrived.

Third AD, Emily. Don't, don't promote me to first. I'm trying to promote you, come on. So when Mel was 14, I was at uni, and Mel would come and assist on the films that I was starting to make. I just started making pop promos for friends' bands and stuff. And Mel would come and aged 14 on one occasion literally built the set, the whole set for this pop group called Raw War. It was rad. It was pretty rad. It was pretty rad. Oil drums, do you remember? Yeah, oil drums. Scaffolding.

Scaffled planks. It was sheer 80s. I think there was some sheeting. There was a little bit of, you know, ultra-box, Vienna-type sheeting going up there. It was, oh, it was so fun. It was so much fun. You were at University, Koki, and then Mel,

you went to university later than that. But were you still very close during that period in terms of, there weren't mobiles then, I guess. But you were, did you communicate a lot? Yeah. Yeah, we used to, I think, did we write to each other, Meg? I think we wrote post-coct. and I came to visit you in Cambridge, didn't I?

Yeah, and then after uni, I basically just came and lived with you. Yeah, she moved in. For about six years. Did you? Yeah, and then I brought Perks in as well. She was living there, I seem to remember. It was relentless. They were so kind.

If you fought, what would the arguments be about? And when you did fight, either in childhood or when you were living together and stuff, Who's the sort of one who says, come on, time out. Who breaks first, as it were? We're gesticulating at each other. The fights don't come often, but when they come. Oh, they're bad.

Are they? Yeah, they're quite fiery. Yeah. And they usually end up, they start on the phone, actually, don't they? I think our fights always start on the phone. Give me an example. I want you to reenact as such a pokey male greatest.

No, it would be, I can do the noises. It would be sort of... Come on then. It would be passive-aggressive from me, always deeply. So, da-da-da-da. And then Coke would be... And I'd be... Dada-da-da-da.

And she'd be... And I'd be... And I'd be... And then she'd be... And then it would escalate. And then one of us puts the phone down. Always. There's a massive...

Hisy-fit. Phone goes down. And then probably about 48 hours of non-communication. And then who's right? That's hugely it, isn't it? It's always me. Is it? Come on, Meg. I don't think it is, mate.

It's always me. I think you can make an argument last longer than me. Really? Yeah. I'm more passive-aggressive, definitely. You're more of a flare-up. Yeah, Coke's much more. She's more honest.

You know, she's much more, if there's a problem, you face it, whereas I'll be brew, brew, brew. Coke is much more honest than I am. If things need to be confronted, she is fearless and she'll just go, okay, that's, that's balls. That's that, you know, we've got to sort that out. And she'll, you know, in an adult way, sometimes in a slightly dramatic way, but in an adult way nonetheless, confront things. Yeah. Yeah, I can be a bit, I can be a bit full on.

But Melly, Mellie, you don't like confrontation. Let's be honest. She really really doesn't. So she will, Mel will do anything to avoid it. Honestly. I'll leave the country. She'll lie. She will lie, bare-faced lies are hilarious to witness.

Okay, I need to know what sort of thing, please. Come on. They're too complex. They're too complex. No, there is a bit of, there is a bit of smoke and mirrors. Smoker mirrors. And it's always, it's actually always with a good heart, because it's always to make someone feel better.

Yeah. But then it's up making them feel a lot, lot worse. Whereas I go crashing in with very few filters and very few sort of reserves. And I actually don't care about confrontation at all. It's so weird. I wish I could be like that. I'd love to do that.

But what I would say is that makes sense of the jobs that you've both done. Because you're the director and directors can't be frightened of confrontation, whereas the talent can get to sort of, You know, you get to do that thing of like, oh, my agent says sorry. Yes, bringing someone else. Do you know what I mean?

Just bringing anyone out. Bring in the layers, the layers and layers of other people and excuses to protect your flimsy ego. That's all it is, Emily, seriously. It's all it is. It's ridiculous. Are you the kind of person, Mel? Would you rather move house than say to the neighbour, your footsteps are keeping me awake when you're walking on the wooden floors or something? I would

No, I wouldn't I would be very I'd get really antsy about it and then probably say the exact opposite to them like something like I love the sound of your floorboards at night that's lovely

It's exactly what I want to be literally passive aggressed to the absolute mass And how would you deal with that cokey if that was your situation I'd knock on the door day one Would you? Day one Mel, day one One. Okay, maybe day two, day two. And I'd say, really nice that you've moved in.

Scary. I do a bit of a preamble, but then I'd say literally straight up, you know, you do know that when you walk on the floorboard it creeks. I know. I know. I need a koki. I need koki in my life. I know, you do. We all do. But then she'd become really good friends with the creaking floorboard neighbor. I would maintain. a sort of slightly of the near of frost oh it's not good I need to know I need to sort that out

Mel once recommended that I kill with kindness I thought that was yeah killing with kindness you know in in work sometimes you just have to do that don't you? You do you see that's a good way of doing I tend to kill with an iron bar

which doesn't doesn't go down quite as well But I feel I'm interested in how your, both of your respective careers really, because, um, Koki, you went on, did you know sort of you wanted to be a director, fairly early doors? Um, I didn't know what it was, to be honest. Um, I, I knew I wanted to do some, make something and be creative and I just had no idea what, where that was going to be. Um, none of us are in showbiz, none of the family was at that time. So I applied to film, no, I applied to art school first, lost my nerve, went to uni,

and while I was at uni just got very sort of frustrated and wanted to make films and hang out with arty people. So that's what I did really. Yeah, but you stumbled into the film society though, film sock. Yeah. That's what it was, wasn't it? And it was full of blokes. It was the early 80s. They were all biochemists.

They were totally uninterested in a female. you know, like me, being part of the group. So they kept me hanging on for three weeks until I just wore them down. And then they gave me a camera and I just started making little films really. And it's the sort of, I don't know, it's the kind of urge to just, yeah, to kind of make things. And the collaborative thing in filmmaking, which is just so appealing. I, even then, even as a student, I'd get all my mates to get up really early in the morning. I'd force mail to come, do the catering.

Always. Do the catering? That's not right. Literally. I mean, it scares me. It scares me when I look back and think about how much kind of force of bloody, I don't know. No, because it was fun, though. It was like, what is more fun than being with all?

Is that a L.O. Junes. Yeah. You know. Two guard dogs. There's an Alsatian round here that she doesn't like very much. Oh, June, June. And Bob's.

And Bob's doing this well. Junie. Oh, look. Oh, listen. I can hear that dog. I've got, come on, June. June, I'll have to get the cheese out. Junie, come on.

Get the cheese out. I've got some chunks of mature cheds in the pocket. This huge. Oh, they love for a bit of cheese. Junie. What's you barking at? I don't know, I can't see... Just for no good...

Sometimes she just does that to just make us know that, you know, she is a guard dog, essentially. She's a lazy old guard dog. I think it's because she's got a lot of those sort of Rot Vila and she's seen an Alsatian, which is another 70s dog. Yeah. I'm the only 70s dog here. I got chased by an Alsatian.

No, not chased, sort of cornered by an Alsatian. Are he there? Cobb? No. Down at the Staiskis, these Polish friends of ours who live down here Brighton, they had this horrendously frightening dog. Were you not there, Cobb? No. I wanted a dog my whole life.

I was 42 when we got Bob. Really? Yeah, I wanted a dog 42 years. And it was Tommy, the old man, who finally said, yeah, let's do it. Is that your other half? Yeah, yeah. He grew up with dogs. He's good with dogs, isn't he?

Yeah, it's amazing. Well, he, I want to hear about Tom. He's very posh, though. You're a lady or something, aren't you? Are we allowed to talk about this? You are, Koki. Yes, but it's a very strange kind of non-thing. He inherited the title through little bizarre highways and byways.

And we have no money and we don't live in a castle. We live in a terrorist house kneeling. And we don't use the title. It's just there in the blooming wiki world. and I can't get rid of it. Well, I'm sorry, I wouldn't be at all like you. I'd have the business card. My husband is an incredibly sort of left-wing member of the Labour Party

and rejected it all aged 18 officially. So it's just not in our lives. But I actually personally think it's a kind of interesting kind of quirk of history and fate. I love it. The original ancestor was really, really interesting. He was Queen Elizabeth's ambassador to Paris and she really loved him. Elizabeth I first. She really loved him and she gave him a socking great house in Epping and all the money was lost in the 18th century by a dissolute kind of gambling. Oh wow. Nice. Drug aggl'd member of the

family. So it's all totally surreal. So Mel, he's getting on with, you know, knowing she's going to make films and just feeling that this is an area that she's she's enjoying it you know and how were you feeling about performing at that time was that something you decided on early or did you know that was going to be your career i seem to remember repeatedly not getting into uh school plays so i'd go up all quite sort of dodgy plays and i'd never get a part which really hacked me off and um so i used to do things like I'd say well maybe I should write an introduction to the play and come on and do that and then I'd write a massive introduction like literally 10 minutes with characters with you know try and write jokes and stuff so I sort of wormed my way in to doing stuff at school

and I think I think I knew really early on actually it's probably about 14 um Coke and I went to see a show in the Oxford Playhouse. My mum had bought us tickets and I do remember sitting there just thinking it was a sketch show and I remember just thinking, yeah, that's it there we go, that's it right there. It was your light bulb moment, wasn't it

yeah, it was. I think I knew quite early on actually but I never really thought, oh I'll make money out of it or I'll actually be able to say I'm a performer, do you know what I mean, I'm a performer, I never thought that for a second. It just sort of happened.

Did you feel, would you describe yourself as, you know, sounds like you were quite an extrovert anyway growing up? Yes, I probably was a right old show-off. Still and it's awful. Even in lockdown, showing off. Appalling. There are so many show-offs in lockdown, aren't there? So many. With the lid just barely held on top.

You got involved in footlights at Cambridge, Mel. Yes. And is that way you met Sue? Yeah, exactly. There were very few other girls, really, who were doing comedy at the time. It was sort of late 80s, early 90s. But the two of us just met through a shared addiction to comedy, I think. We were just obsessed with it.

And we became friends before we did anything working together. We were pals, first and foremost. And we only really started working together about five years after we met, I suppose, four years after. Yeah. Yeah. They were an amazing double. act, Emily, those two. They still are, obviously, but right from the

beginning, it was just brilliant chemistry, wasn't it? I don't really sort of analyse it, but we just do we really get on. And, yeah, I guess we're... Very different. Very, very, very... Very different, but we find a lot of the same things

funny, I suppose that's the crucial thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can sort of tell, I remember seeing you years ago, when you first did, like, lunch, it must have been, you know, Oh, blimey. Sorry about that. Shout out. No, I remember seeing that and I genuinely thought

because I guess we're about the same sort of vintage and I thought I really wish those women and my friends. Like, I think they just didn't know what I mean? There was that sense of just funny without being cruel. Lots of people said that. Lots of people said that, Mal. You've got to take that compliment. They did. Oh, no, it's lovely. How old were you at the time?

Emily, you must have been about five. Oh, I love you. This is what I need. Come on. This is what I need. Come on. You see how Kokey was. deal with this as she'd say well clearly you're quite old so you were no I'm just be accurate but I do looking at your career you know your partnership with Sue which has obviously gone on to you know you've both been very successful individually but also you know with bake off

and things do did you sort of it's so amazing to think that's endured all that time and how do you I'm interested in what you think about that koki in terms of of being witnessing that, you know, evolving. Oh, it's been a marriage. It's been a marriage of sorts. It's been, it's had its ups and downs. Definitely. And you've worked through them and you've,

and they've done tons and tons together, years and years of like really grafting. And then they sort of had moments of just like having a break from each other and going off and exploring different things. Sue did a ton of documentary stuff. Melly started doing these brilliant shows, Like, sorry I've got no head. Sadie J, acting, acting theatre stuff.

And coming back together. Good, I'm paying me to say this. Come on, keep going. And, you know, you wouldn't have done it if you hadn't had your little moments of divorce. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, both perks and I say it's really good to do this stuff separately. It's brilliant, actually. But then it's always a treat to do something together.

That's what. Yeah. That's what. Yeah. That's, we love that. We do love that. We're very shambolic still though. It's 30 years and we're still, I don't know, we're pretty and together. But we're mates.

That's probably the way you work. Yeah, maybe. They actually were staying with me when they got the gig for light lunch. Mel and Sue in my kitchen living with me at the time, I think, staying with me. Yeah, scrounging, sponging, scrounging. And they were trying to get the first show together and they literally had, you know, they had about 10, pieces of toast and cups of tea and they just were so shambolic and all I could hear from the kitchen every now and then was lunch as they tried to think of some ideas for this show. Oh God. You were desperate. It was always winging it, wasn't it, Mal? Let's be honest.

Always. When your fellow comic performers working together, there's even, you know, however brilliantly you get on, there will be moments where you'll be like, you just disagree or there'll be creative, you know, discussions about stuff. Do you ever sort of not get involved in that coheal? Would you always offer? I imagine you'd always offer the very straight opinion, wouldn't you, rather than say, rather than tell them what they wanted to tell Mel what she wanted to hear, effectively. Yeah, it's, we're both actually, to be honest, it works really both ways.

I mean, I really rely on Mel a hell of a lot. I may be the bossy older sister, but I really, really, value her kind of opinions on things. So if things are going badly for me, if I'm worried about something or really scared about something, she gives me incredible advice. And with Sue,

I would never want to kind of ever get between them or intervene in a way that would affect their relationship. So it's kind of, you know, you have to be really delicate about certain things, don't you? Perks always goes to cope when they see each other. and within about a nanosecond, it's like the therapy couch, isn't it, Coke? Yeah, I love it. Perks is there literally saying, right, what do I do?

There's this, you know, there's this issue. It's great, it's lovely actually that. They always get down to the nitty gritty very quickly. I'm rubbish at small talk. What did you think, Koki, when Mel left Bake Off, which I don't know if you can talk about it much, Mel, but obviously it was just like one of those incredible moments when I felt like I could breathe out And I thought, oh, I knew they were like that. They're such good people.

And did you feel, did she ask you about that? Did you have views on that? And did she come to you? We met, I remember, in the cafe at Virgin Active by the swimming pool. And the police, the paparazzi were outside your dorming. And the police. That was for something else. And Mel's kids.

Oh, for God's sake. And Mel's kids couldn't get into that. house because of the paparazzi so they came to our house and Melly said to me this is what we're thinking of doing we're going to you know we're not we're not going to go to channel four this is what we're thinking of doing do you remember Mel it's in the right in the middle of it all I was just so freaking proud oh cheers child all I can say you know I mean it's very brave to turn away the money you know who bloody does that but it didn't seem like that trickier decision You know, just, I don't know.

Oh, hell, I don't know. You had some tough times, didn't you, when, after the day financially. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, like a lot of people, we... Sorry, I'm laughing. I'm just laughing. I'm so sorry. And she's just there, pissing herself laughing.

I'm really sorry. It all. We're blooming. We were absolute flipping idiots. And I had this... It was when Kingsmill went. Kingsmill. It's in a stomach.

It's only because it's serious. It's because we've gone serious. I know, I know. Go on, Kingsville. We had this Kingsmill advert and it's, you know. That was you and Sue, wasn't it? That was the face of Kingsmill. Yeah, listen, it was an absolute festival of cash.

It was a cash cow. It came around twice a year. So I just thought, right, boom. this is the big time. Why is all your big money related to dough pumps as well? It's all bread involved. Bread, always bread. Yeah, so go on.

No, we were just a bit, we were just a bit dumb. We bought a house that we couldn't really afford and borrowed too much from the bank. And then I got a letter from getting back. Really, just bald. Just ask. Oh, have a hamper full of bread. You know.

We're so sorry that you're going. You've given us so much good service. It was just literally, we will not be needing you again. And then it all just, it all just like your belly butt. Yeah, it went well tits up. And there was no work on the horizon. Nothing. It was a big lesson.

It was a good lesson. It was a bit. It was a massive lesson. It really was. No. And then so we, we lived in a little rental flat for a couple of years. And actually, it was, it was, it was lovely. We realized that we don't need all this. stupid space that we can't afford, you know.

Yeah. It was good. It was a good thing, actually. It was a good thing. They were such bad adverts as well, sorry. And may I say, there were many, we used to take the kids to school,

and there were many days when Mel would come to school to the playground, hatchet faced. Totally. But the hatchet only comes out for me and Ben. Yeah. We're the only ones that ever see it, aren't we? To everyone else, it's absolutely.

sweetness and light. But Mel, I love that. That's how it should be. I had a thing with my sisters who's sadly no longer with us but my late sister she that was our thing that she was the only person I would slam the phone down on. I wouldn't do that for a friend. I'd never speak to me again knowing that I could ring her the next day and go all right mate and it was just forgotten. Yes it's true. It's a weird one isn't it because actually I guess it's I guess you just feel sort of safe yeah exactly that you can just go to the absolute nadir and still and still be welcomed back yeah it works both ways and you um talking about i mean you've had such an incredible career as the director koki and i really love your work and um the virgin queen was don't figure up too much

mate just keep it keep on the down low keep it on the down low Mel's like, let's bring up some of the more Kingsmill type work. Come on. We all got a Kingsmill in our closet. Yeah, you can chat and I'll just have a little think about that. You have a little chat. Go on. I love a little thing.

So you'd carved out and have carved out an incredibly successful career as a director, which I think, you know, I hope it's easier for women now, but I still think when I was growing up, the idea of a director was a man, which is awful, you know, but in a chair with the bossing people around. essentially it's it's still pretty bad I'm afraid is it yeah yeah it really it's I've got I've got this big this big thing I'm doing this evening actually which is the kind of Hollywood and women you know that sounds terrifying I know on online sort of massive massive chat with all the kind of pundits and I've been kind of getting my

ideas together about what to say and the truth is, you know, it was bad in the 80s when I started. Yeah. And it's and it's pretty ropey now. The only thing now is that there at least is a dialogue that people are talking about it. Yeah. And acknowledging and you know, there are the occasional little tiny openings of opportunities. But it's it's really tough. It's tough to be a female director. Yeah. And the and the thing that gets me really more than anything else, I discovered recently when I was being interviewed is that I I guess that I'm associated with being female all the time I don't go on set thinking hey today yeah this great female director you know it's and my daughter who's 18 we were walking around the park the other day and

chatting about stuff and talking about what she might want to do with her life and she said mum I just don't want it to be part of the debate I don't want to have to answer to anyone or kind of prove myself. The only thing I can say is that there are a few of us who've done it and I've been doing it for 30 years who kind of care about the ones coming up behind us

and we are trying to be good role models and we're trying to mentor young filmmakers and you know wherever possible now I'm old like I'm an old bird I can really say on my film set I can say look, it's got to be diverse and it's got to have enough women in the crew. It's simple as that. And casting is, you know, I like it to be colourblind and I don't know.

Do you think also with directing, and I think this is conditioning, certainly with our generation of, you know, necessarily the job of director, part of it is telling other people what to do, especially men. And I think that can be tough for some women, just purely because of how well, condition that you're not taught to take up space socially you know it's like wait for the man to have his turn you know so yeah yeah i mean yeah it's a film's a film set is structured in a really really kind of male way it's almost it's almost like the army yeah you know it's a it's called a shoot yeah you're right the director is the general you you talk to each other on walkie-talkies

you wear combat gear yeah um you know it's it's it's It's really, really peculiar. The only thing that I've, I guess I've done consistently is try really, really hard not to take myself too seriously. Try not to sort of ever think that I'm, you know, the victim of anything or lower status in any way. And my... Joanie. And when you...

Sorry, Cokit. I was down. I want to actually ask you about your latest film. Lie down. Lie down. which I've just seen and I really loved it. I think you've done such a beautiful job with something which is, you know, such a popular piece of work and so well loved.

And it's Caitlin Moran's How to Build a Girl, isn't it? Yes, yes. And you've just directed the movie. Yes. Katlyn Moran is a massive hero of mine and I'm a big, big fan of her work. And so I just leapt at it. And I worked on the script for a year and a half with her. She'd written it.

Yeah. And when I got the script, it was very Catlin. It was very, very noisy and polemical and sort of a bit shouty at times. She would freely admit that. So I came on board and I worked with her for a long time to just sort of craft it into what you saw, really, the movie. And I'd constantly say to her, Catlin, you write hilarious and heartbreaking. And she'd say, fuck the heartbreaking. I want the hilarious.

and I'd go, no, we're going to do both. And that was it. That was the journey. We looked for a star and we tried to cast, you know, we looked at loads of young girls round kind of Wolverhampton, the Midlands, and then broadened it out to the whole of the UK. And suddenly the producer saw Beanie in Lady Bird and she just said, she's our girl.

And it was just the most brilliant, light. bulb moment and I Skyped I skiped with her and I said look Bean how are you going to handle this accent this Wolverhampton thing how are you going to do it and she said anyone any actor taking on this part has got to take on that accent and that thing and that yeah persona why not me you know why shouldn't it be me and she just completely threw herself headlong into that character she worked in a shop in Wolverhampton didn't she yeah I think I've seen it about five times now actually I know I was really supportive.

No, I love it. I love it because it's a sort of thing where you can see it multiple times and you'll get something different out of it. You'll notice a different joke or you'll suddenly love a new character. It's a lovely warm film that everyone should see because it's life-affirming and we need stuff like that now. It's escapist and it's just proper funny. Do you know what I mean?

It's like just proper belly laugh funny. And also speaking is a moment. you know, mum of two teenage girls. I just think it is so refreshing to see somebody on screen who's not a blooming, stick-thin, kind of, oh, pouty-lipped, sort of fake person. She's real, she's funny, she's gorgeous, she's flawed. It's brilliant. I absolutely love it.

So, Mel, I want to know about what you're up to at the moment as well, because I know Kings Mill's fallen through, and I'm really sorry about that, but I'm back in negotiation I'm back in negotiation with Kingsmill lads they won't be back in the fold you're joking there are some flowery baps

that they need somebody to get out and advertise and I've said I'm your woman no I it was really weird actually I was literally about oh hang on there's an Alsatian

hang on do you know's looking the other way she's looking another way all good it's fine it's fine No, I was just about to film this new show for Dave, the comedy channel, Dave, literally the day that lockdown was called. So we didn't get to do our first recording. But I'm hoping that that will sort of happen once things get a bit easier, you know, things clarify a bit.

And I'm writing a novel which will be out next spring, I think. Oh, how exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm just finishing the third draft of it at the moment, so lockdown. It's really funny. Is that fiction or nonfiction? It's a novel, yeah. It's really funny.

Well, it's our cheer of it. I mean, you know, I've got to say, I think it might possibly be the way forward. I really, really enjoyed it. Tell me, I want to know, because having spoken to you both, I've really got such a vivid idea of your relationship, actually. It's that closeness and I get the sense of, it's like an unconditional bond, isn't it? And I can imagine, you know, you know, that thing you always say, who would you call if you'd lost all your cards and, you know, you couldn't get home or something?

It's that sense that they're your person. Kingsmill would be my first port of all. They would come. They would come good. But did your partners, was that something they almost had to adapt to, that level of closeness between you? They are like the biggest. Blumming, there's the biggest bromance going on between those two.

Isn't there? They absolutely. They go dads. They ruddy. They ruddy adore each other. You lost your dad guys, didn't you? A couple of years ago, Dad died. And mum's still around and she's on her own in lockdown, which is a constant worry.

Weird, really weird. To us, because we all see her, you know, all the time. But she's, she was a war baby. She was a nurse, as we said. And so she is unbelievably practical down to the one. Strong. Chipper. Kind of like keeping really chipper, doing tons of stuff.

When I ring her, or as she says, flat face her, which is FaceTiming. Oh, pleasure. She says, I love flat face. I can't talk long. I'm really, really busy. Yes, I get that. Amazing. She's an amazing woman.

She's four foot nine. Yeah, and she's fierce. I'm interested to know, have either of you had therapy and would you have it? Yes, both of us. Yes, I love it. I swear by it. It saved my life, yeah. Really? 100%.

In what way, just being able to open up to someone, I guess, and... It was the end of my first marriage and it was basically a way for me and my ex-husband to stay really good friends, which we've done, and protect our son and sort of go forward into new families and our lives. And all of us have in various ways and in various combinations been to therapy. And I think, you know, if you find a really good one, it's just about the most magical thing. Yeah. And what about you now? Yeah, I was having, um, Before I got married and I was having, I sort of kept on finding the self in the same sort of pickle of, you know, just mindset stuff. So I had some CBT therapy.

I think I had about six sessions and it was blooming brilliant. And that's cognitive behavioural. Yeah. So working out, you know, why you keep going down the same route and basically training your brain not to go down that route. Absolutely brilliant. I mean, who knew? So clever. This lovely woman.

She was so, so nice. I went to see her. I hadn't really sort of thought that it was my kind of thing. I kind of thought, you know, I'm not that sort of person that, you know, needs that. It's a bit, oh, is it a bit self-indulgent, you know, blah, blah. But I was really glad I went. Really glad, actually. Would you go again, babe?

Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would, actually. I would. A bit of a dog-pipe. The only thing I'd find now, though, is I would, I'd feel. I'd feel exhausted at the thought of starting again right from scratch. That's the only thing. Honestly, I know it's a really glib thing to say,

but if you have a toothache or if you have a kind of, you know, a bad back, you go and see a doctor and you go and get help. And I think if you're suffering, if your mental health is suffering, there are people out there who can just be so, so helpful. I think you're an amazing therapist. I've got a lot of time for them. Aren't they? Wonderful.

Our family is riddled with all sorts of things. Oh my days. Don't get us started. No, we'd need a 75. What is your family? Your family? I thought it doesn't seem riddled with anything. Oh, there's a lot of rum.

There's a lot going on. Is there? Dump, dump. Yeah. We'd need a 75 episode podcast to deli meant our bat. We do. It's really nice to talk to a stranger sometimes as well. Or someone not, I always say not sprawling in the white heat of it all.

You know, just invested. but not right in the centre of it all. Yes. It's just so good. I remember my first session of CBT. I actually couldn't speak. I had this massive lump in my throat. I was literally like that for the first 12 minutes.

Because it was just, there was so, it was such a powerful release. Sorry, that sounds very, you know, bits of self-centered. No, it's true though. But you did. Can I tell you my first? Go on. So my first session... I'm talking about when we lost opportunity.

My first. My first session with Catherine, I said, listen, I'll talk about anything at all. I'm happy to talk about literally anything except... Junie. My mum and dad. That's so good. Cut to 400 hours.

Six months later on the floor. Who's the cryer out of you too? Oh, both of us. When did you last cry? Me yesterday. Yeah. Did you cry yesterday, Carl? Yeah.

I think I brimmed yesterday at something ludic. I can't remember. A proper full-on weep. It was probably about a month ago, I suppose. Oh, really? But brimming all the time. I mean, solidly brimming at everything. Do you know what I mean?

I like it, though. I love cry. I think it's really cathartic. Yes, it is good. I don't know it's essential. Sorry, there's a large Chinook helicopter overhead. It's the Kingsmill HP. They've come to me. They're going to land in the park and hand me the contract. So I've got to go, girls. It's been lovely.

Sweet soon. What do you most fear people will say about you when you walk out of the room, and what do you most hope they'd say? So, Koki, you go first, then, Mel. What, fear about you when you're dead? What do you fear? No, they'll say about you. So when you leave a room, what would they say? Okay, she's a bit...

But then on the nice side, it's like, what do you hope they'd say? Well, I fear that they say it, and I know that they say it, that I'm bossy. They do, Emily. They really do. Every time she leaves a room. No, no, that's... I'm actually kidding. I would absolutely hate someone.

to think that I took myself too seriously because so much of my job is kind of like putting that front on in a way and being that person so you hope in a way you'd fear that they'd well not the paraphrase you but you'd hope that they'd think you were sort of lighthearted and soft and sort of softer which I am you know in in my home life I think well you know No, she's a to totoe. I bloody hope so. Of course she bloody is.

Otherwise. What about you, McGins? I would hate for people to say... What a hatchet face on. That would be bad. I know the hatchet comes through a lot and probably the more, the older I get, the more the hatchet comes through. I would hate for people to say, oh, there's that girl she used to do the Kingsmelads. what she's doing now? That would be very sad. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, sorry, love.

Just made a girl cry with the dogs, that's not good. I hope that people would say, um, yeah, she's good, she's good, she's good fun to be with. I hope people would say that. So shite. Miggins. I hope so. The thing about Mel, which she won't say about herself, is that she is as kind and as brilliant as she appears on the screen when she's, you know, talking to people. She's as interested and as connected. She's attractive. She's very, very alluring, clever. She's a kind person. Yep. She's a kind person. As are you, as are you, my cobs. As are you.

I'm actually going to start welling up now. I can't take the emotion. Come on, brim. Let's all brim together. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.