Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Nicky Campbell

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

This week it’s another ‘At Home’ with the dog as Emily chats to Nicky Campbell. They discuss adoption, his extraordinary bond with his childhood dog, his broadcasting career and his new book, ��One of the Family: Why A Dog Called Maxwell Changed My Life’. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My first changeover was with Kenny Everett. I was doing a Saturday and an afternoon show, my very first show, and I had to walk around the block four times before I could summon up the courage to walk in. I said, he said, what's your name? I said, Nicky Campbell said, don't be too good, I shall have you grotted and dragged down Houston Road. This week on Walking the Dog, I chatted to radio and TV presenter Nikki Campbell, who was joined by his Labrador Maxwell and his two Westies, Maisie and Misty.

Oh, and there's a cameo appearance from his wife Tina who wanted to know why Nikki hadn't picked up the dog poo. We chatted about everything because it turns out Nikki's incredibly open. He told me about being adopted and the impact that's had on his life, what it was like meeting his birth mother and the extraordinary bond he formed with his childhood dog candy. We also talked about his hugely successful career

and meeting his wife Tina and what it felt like to have been finally diagnosed with bipolar as an adult as well as the Labrador Maxwell, who became an invaluable support to him during that time. In fact, Nikki has just written a book called One of the Family, why a dog called Maxwell changed my life. And it's so moving and beautifully written. I really urge you to read it as I was quite blown away by it.

I was also just quite blown away by Nikki. I'd obviously been familiar with his work, but I had no idea what he'd been through. And I was really impressed by his honesty and insight and just his wisdom. He also seems like a real laugh. Basically, what I'm saying is, I think I might have to move in with the Campbells.

Look, Ray and I are very petite. We don't take up much room, although Ray will need his bedding to be Egyptian cotton. That's the only thing to bear in mind, just FYI. Before I go, do also check out Nikki's podcast, one of the family, where he chats to people about the ways in which dogs make the world a better place. So that's obviously very up my straza. Do give it a listen.

I'll shut up now and hand over to the man himself. Here's Nikki and Maisie and Misty. Anne Maxwell, you fed the dog, Nikki. I fed a dog. I've got my dog on my lap, Raymond. Raymond. Say hello, Raymond to Nikki Campbell. Hi, Raymond.

Does Raymond watch television? Yes, he does. Yeah. Do your dogs? Maxwell doesn't. Maxwell isn't remotely interested in television, but Misty, the mother West Highland Terrier, is an avid fan of any nature program or vet program

or program with animals or dogs or indeed adverts in which animals appear. Misty is somewhat, sorry, Maisie, her daughter is somewhat flummoxed by it. I think she can see it, but she doesn't get as excited as Misty does. Misty attacks the television, literally. And you see, my dog likes David Attenborough. I think he finds his voice very soothing. and he likes dogs behaving very badly on Channel 5

because I think he likes to feel smug when other dogs are being told off and he hears no Misty enjoys Noel Fitzpatrick the vet thing because I think she likes seeing other dogs suffering she's like she's a very twisted individual Mickey I'm so thrilled

that you're able to join me on walking the dog and I'm so sad that I can't meet you in person I was looking for my book, sorry. I know. It would have been great to go for a straw and look at the weather here in London town today. It's sunshine and it's spring. There's a breath of spring in the air, isn't there?

I can see the times where we'll be sitting in the garden drinking Sauvignon. It's not long, is it? It's coming. And I really wanted to meet your dog, Maxwell, your Labrador, because I know he's really changed your life. I'm here on Walking the Dog with Radio Broadcaster, TV presenter, and Five Live presenter, Nikki Campbell.

Nikki, welcome. Thank you. Firstly, talk us through your dogs. Right. Well, I've got Maxwell named after Gavin Maxwell, my favourite writer, writing about Highlands and Nature and otters, and also named after Maxwell's Silverhammer, the Beatles song, but not named up because the kids all love that when they're young,

but not named after Robert Maxwell, the press baron, not named after him. I want to emphasize that. And we've got Misty, who is a West Highland Terrier who is nine years old, 10 years old, named after Misty May. Oh, what was her name? Misty May, we call him Misty May.

Misty May trainer, the greatest beach volleyball player of all time. Not really, but I call a Misty May after Misty May, who I first encountered in the 2000 Sydney Olympics when I was working there for five live. And Maisie is her daughter, who is amazing Maisie. So I've got, and they're such characters West Highland Terriers, but Maxwell is my friend and confidant and therapist on four legs. It was 12 years ago that he came into your life. And I just got the impression that you formed such an instant bond with him.

Completely. And it took me back to my childhood just after I came into the house when I was adopted as a little baby. I came into my parents' house when I was three months old, I think, in Edinburgh. And they got a puppy at the same time. I think they got a puppy to kind of make my sister feel a bit better about stuff because I was getting all the attention. And Candy was my confrere, my comrade, my brother-in-arms for the first 11 years of my life. life. And he brought me a great deal of happiness and security and friendship and safety. I felt safe when I was with him. He was a fox terrier cross. And his mother was called Judy and she

lived next door at number 103, Terrace House in Edinburgh, over the fence. And she was a purebred Fox Terrier Cross, but she escaped one night and had wild abandon and came back pregnant. They were very surprised when she came back pregnant a couple of days later. Remember those days? Dogs used to escape and wander around and dodge all the mini clubmans and Morris Miners of the streets of 1960s, Edinburgh, when you can still smell the yeast of the breweries. And women wore hats. And anyway, she came back and was pregnant.

And so I think my sister's nose was a little bit out of joints. So what they did? Dad said, no, my dead body. My dead body. We're not getting a dog. And he went next door to have a look at the puppies that Judy had had. I remember the academics. My parents refer to them as the academics next door.

So the academics had a dog that had puppies. And we got one of the puppies and the puppy was candy. And I didn't realize that he was a dog. or I just thought we were together. We were the, I didn't particularly occur to me that he was of a different species. And we were with each other and loved each other for the first 11 years of my life,

everything we did together. And we used to go around on all fours and sniff things together. When the doorbell rang and friends arrived, we sniffed them. My parents were pretty embarrassed about that, more embarrassed on some occasions than others. Get down, get down.

I was saying to both of us, Down, down, down. Get that, Nikki, get down. Candy, get down. Everyone used to comment on it. Tell me a bit about your parents, Nikki, because I really get the impression that you had a really lovely home, actually, growing up. Yeah, it was a beautiful, lovely home. What a write about in the book are the insecurities, the lifelong insecurities and feelings of rejection and abandonment of adoption.

but I had a brilliant family and I always say this and I think it's important to say that my parents are my adoptive parents but they're my real parents and I had a blissfully happy home and it was so loved

but there was always that thing I remember when we went to see Dumbo when I was four years old in the cinema where else? People used to smoke in cinemas and then at one stage I'm going off on a tangent here

At one stage I had the smoking side of the cinema and the non-smoking side of the cinema. What was the point? It was like when planes did that. You're sitting one seat behind someone having 60 cigarettes. Oh, I feel much better about being a non-smoking. But the fresh air. Oh, that's right. I can finally breathe in this seat. I'm glad I'm not sitting two seats along.

And it played the national anthem at the end of every cinema. But I didn't hear the national. because I ran out of the cinema. I missed the national anthem. I was four years old. And it was when Dumbo's mother was separated from Dumbo and Dumbo was being bullied and his mother couldn't help him. Was that tricky for your mum to deal with? How did she deal with moments like that? Mum was a psychiatric social worker. So she was pretty good at dealing with moments like that. I remember she used to come home from work and dad was a publisher of maps. He loved maps. He adored maps. and tried to get me interested in maps, but I don't have the map gene.

I remember panicking once when we were driving. And Tina said, because I can't read maps, I have a kind of map dyslexia or whatever it is. I just don't get maps. So, you know, nature and nurture. I'm sorry, as far as maps, I can say, and it's nature. I remember Tina's saying, where are we? Where? Point to the road we're on. And in panic, I pointed out the window to the road that we were on.

Because I, no way could I find it on the map. So, you know, he was, so she was good. I remember she used to come home from work and I was on the floor with candy on the carpet as we always were, you know, with Blue Peter or whatever it was in the background. And dad and mom used to sit and she used to tell him about her day at work. And I used to hear the most extraordinary things. It was one man who, who his wife would only let him have sex with her when he'd had a, he'd bathed in dettle. I remember that he said, and he had to be dabbed in dettle. all over. And I remember him, mom telling that to dad. I remember Dan saying, what?

Are you sure? But this was like run of the mill for mums. You had to deal with all these things on a daily basis. But it's quite impactful for a 10 year old child to hear that, especially when I went up to the bathroom and saw some dettle in the cupboard. But anyway, no, so they dealt with all that stuff well, brilliantly well, and told me from an early eight, from as long as I knew that I was adopted. But the big shuddering blow in my life was when I got home from school. one day and we'd just come back from the highlands where we had been on a holiday and the um he kind of been in kennels because he he worried sheep i didn't i didn't think there was a it was probably i didn't he slightly concerned them maybe but i don't think there was a big problem but

my parents were not a lot of people's parents got overreacted to things um and so i got home from school one day and he i looked up and he didn't run down he wasn't there in the room upstairs where he used to sit and watch the world go by. And I ran downstairs, ready to take him out for a walk and to greet him and I've had the explosion of love and joy. And the mom was in the hallway and said, she said, we had to put candy to sleep. And I remember as if it was yesterday.

It's dreadful, dreadful. What really occurred to me reading your book was that obviously dogs by their very nature are adopted themselves. You know, they join our family and we make them part of our family. So I found that even more kind of heartbreaking for you in a sense, that that connection was also based on sort of almost identifying with that shared experience almost. I think I did. I think that's acutely observed.

I think I did identify with that subconsciously and then later consciously. We had come into the home. And yeah, I think that was a big thing. It was a big thing. Identifying with that adoption thing. Sort of you feel incredibly loved, but you feel incredibly rejected. And there's great solace in animals, great comfort. And they just seem to understand how you're feeling.

And I also got the sense you talk. a lot about feeling other. How did that manifest itself, this sense of otherness in you? I think that I had this narrative that had been drawn up for me of my birth mother, which was to make me feel better and to make me understand adoption. Now, they weren't going to say, Oh, your mother, obviously, self, had mental health issues and was a matron in a hospital and had two wild affairs and had two children born within 18 months of each other, both adopted in Edinburgh and with different fathers. And they weren't going to say that.

So they kind of glossed it, but they didn't lie. They said she was an amazing woman, amazingly generous, and came over from Dublin. and I grew in her tummy, but she couldn't look after me. And so we're your mommy and daddy now. And she made sure that you're with a loving family. And we are family now forever. And she was very, very careful to put you with the right people. And it happened because my dad had a hangover and terrible hangover

because my mom had had a series of miscarriages. And he went to his friend Ronnie Cameron. who was our local GP and he said, how are you, Frank? And he said, oh, I'm, really off. I mean, Sheila's obviously, it's very depressed because she's had five miscarriages now. And Ronnie said, oh, there's a woman who's over from Dublin at the practice, coming into the practice I'm looking after who is like to have a baby and is looking for a good home for the baby. And so that's how it came about, thanks to Dad's Hangover. So I have that narrative.

And so there's always that thing in your mind about who you might have been, who you should have been, who you once were, and who you're meant to be and who you're not meant to be, what you deserve, what you don't deserve. Are you an imposter in your own life? There's always that thing. And having done long as family for love news, I've spoken to a lot of people, and I've heard that voice.

I've heard that reflected so many times. So that's how it manifested itself. and I was quite shy. I mean, I had my moments, but I was kind of hide behind mummy's legs a bit, certainly for the first, you know, eight or nine years, maybe a bit longer. I'm always interested in shy people that become performers.

Why do you think you became a performer? Well, I was always a bit, I always liked all that stuff. I always liked, I kind of impressing my parents, making them laugh. I used to love making them laugh and saying clever things and clever stuff. when they laughed, it kind of, I felt good and felt part of everything.

I really came into my own in that respect when I was a teenager, and it was about 15 or 16, and I discovered that you could phone in radio stations and get on the air on phone ins. That's when I sort of came into my own, and my self-esteem built up a lot then. And then I, there was a, I was on everything, not as myself, you know, as an imposter, as someone else. But I used to, there was this current affairs program called Dial Webster on a Sunday morning and I'd phone up and I'd maybe they take 10 calls throughout the program and I was eight of them with doing different characters being different people. Oh, it's Nikki Campbell again.

No, it's the vet advising on rabies or it's the woman from morningside his life had been destroyed by vandals. It's the self-confessed vandal. It's the social worker promoting the lack of community centres. It's a man who thinks that the French president, Giscard d'estan's visit to Edinburgh is an absolute disgrace because the common market is a racket. And it's this. So I just love doing it. And I love the fact that they thought I was real. But I loved radio. And to be able to go on the radio and pull a fast one and be people and just push it to the limit, push it to the limit.

And it's because we used to tape it. And then my friends got on board with it. So we really wiped the board with it and all their phone ins. And so Ian Glenn, who's in Game of Thrones, he was one of my mates. He got on board. And Robert Harley, who wrote Smack the Pony. He was another one of my school friends. He was a very clever guy.

He got on board. And so what I'd do is I was kind of leading the charge. And it was very good for my self-esteem made me feel good because at school, we'd play the cassette at break time. And people were kind of hanging it on the Monday after the Sunday's phone in. So people were hanging out of the, you know, like one of those. one of those train carriages hanging off the roof and listening. Everyone was packed in and piled in and listening through the windows. And so that was my career in radio.

It's quite ironic. I do phone ins now. That's how I fell in love with the whole thing and the thrill of it, which I feel now, speaking to a mic to you. I love it. I suppose that makes me feel really happy for you that you found that, though, because also it was something that you...

I know a second. What? I'm doing a podcast. God, honestly. What was that? Was that your wife, Tina? She's very angry with me because I didn't clear the dog mess

in the garden earlier on. I've got an exercise bike and I went straight to the exercise bike this morning in the little shed at the side of the kitchen. And it's not a very expansive garden. There's a bit of grass and there's a bit of concrete and there were three piles on the concrete and I walked past them

like I was going through a minefield. but I didn't I didn't pick them up and I came in. Is that your job doing the dog poo? No, it's all hands to the pump. And I should I should have picked it up. And so I haven't heard the end of it today. And I've heard, this is not sustainable. You must pick it.

I said, well, I was tired. I was working all day yesterday. So I think there's a bit of a vestige of that still going on. Hatch the English was she was calling me. But, you know, marriage is all about ups and downs, and it's not a serious down, but it's been going on all day. We were talking about radio and performing, and I said, I was really happy for you that you found that.

I just get this sense of you not belonging, and to me that means not feeling safe, that no matter how much love your parents threw at you, and they obviously threw a great deal of it, and security and stability and constancy, you couldn't feel safe. No, no, I never, I never really felt safe. Candy made me feel safe.

My dog Candy made me feel very safe. There's always that lingering lifelong thing. I've spoken to so many people on Long Loss family who said the same thing. And when you come to the trace, tracing thing, you feel guilty that you've done it. And you feel disloyal, but you feel in your heart of hearts that you have to do it because you have to know where you came from and who you are or you might have been or who you were meant to be. And so you feel it's like guilty about everything and that never leaves you, but you know that you had to do it, but then you think, did I have to do? So you're kind of torn apart

by the whole thing. And it's, I had so many things, I had so many, over the years, so many people on Long Lost family say things that I identified with and people who come on Long Lost families say that, you know, we've really helped them and transform their lives. And family really transformed my life because it made me think so long and hard about all those things and allowed me to refocus on meeting my birth mother and work out why it hadn't worked out. The first thing my birth mother said to me when we met in 1989 or 1990 was she was two hours late and she was, you know, had a chaotic life and she wasn't she didn't float into the hotel vestibule like I thought she would.

because she was such an amazing, generous, faintly woman who couldn't look after me, so gave me to somebody else and made sure I had the best family in the world. She was chaotic. She's had a chaotic life. And she came in and she sat down and she was all over the place. And we sort of said, hello. And then we settled into our seats. And she said, do you like dogs?

And I thought at the time, bizarre. And I do love dogs. I did love dogs. I've got a lifelong love affair with dogs. I feel happy with dogs. If I see a dog, I want to get down on the carpet with it like I got down in the carpet with candy. I've crossed the road to see dogs. I've gone on motorcycles on 150-mile journeys because I haven't had a dog handy. So I've gone to see my sister to see her dog. And I didn't think about it at a time because I was consumed with all sorts of other things in my mind, of nerves and sense of an identity and belonging and looking at somebody genetically related to me for the first time. And when I reconsidered everything later on, in the light of my own breakdown and my own savior on four legs and my own love of animals. It kind of fitted into place. She didn't say much, but she didn't say much that was of any depth,

but because of the life she'd had, it had all been sucked out of her and bashed out of her. But there was great depth there. And you could see it sometimes. And I think it's a brilliant question. I think it's a brilliant question. Do you like dogs? It was a brilliant question because I don't understand anyone that doesn't like dogs. And it's an empathy test.

It's a flow test of empathy. It's a surefire test of empathy. I would agree with you. And I always feel when people reject the concept of dogs, I think they're sort of slightly rejecting their inner child. I almost feel some people are frightened to me. make that that connection. Yeah. You're so in the moment. There's no future and no past when you're with a dog. You're so taken up with that connection with an animal. You know when you said that,

did you hear a little ping in the background? Yeah, what was that? Was that your phone? No, it was the angels saying spot on what you said. That's what it was. The other thing is, it's not just connected with... I love that the angels can text me now. This is good news. I think they've call of technology, Nikki. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just connecting with your inner child. It's connecting with the outer world, the world beyond ourselves. It's the world within and it's the world beyond.

Because this is an animal which has been domesticated over the last 25,000 years. Descended from the wild wolf, a wolf-like creature in an extraordinary, process of domestication, which is fascinating in itself. And if you can see the dog, you see little hints, little vestiges of the wild, the wolf in your living room, that famous thing. And it's an animal that's far closer to the wild than we are, or certainly we think we are. And if you see a dog and if you love a dog, you're loving an animal and you should see beyond ourselves to all animals because a dog gives us a little chance to glimpse into the forest to see what we are, the apes that we are in reality. So it's looking outward and beyond and it's looking

inward and within. I was interested you were talking about how you met your birth mother and she was pretty late, wasn't she? And I got the sense that obviously you were very stressed out by that. And punctuality is really important to you. I made the connection. I made the connection. there of you've been waiting for someone to kind of show up all your life really? Yeah, yeah. I think that's a point. Then she wasn't there

when she was two or three hours late. Yeah. When she did come and she said, do you like dogs? We spoke about a dog. She told me about a dog called Toby when she was in the boarding house

in Portobello in Edinburgh having me and then I was born and we were together for nine days and then the woman in the car came to take me away and she was inconsolable as I later found out and expectedly and there was a little dog called Toby who was I think a collie

little collie cross who was in there under the bed guarding me guarding me for nine days and when one came in or came near me he growled and he was jumping up beside me. I think that even though she was a matron in a hospital, I think in that situation, she was less than fastidious about cleanliness

because maybe there were the three of us in there. And we were in there together. And I just, so when I got home and then Candy arrived, the dog from next door, I do think there was something that was familiar to me about candy. And when I had my breakdown, which I write about, And my diagnosis is bipolar. I went to the psychiatrist.

I was very lucky to be able to get sick out psychiatrists. It's a terrible time. It's far easy to write about it than it is to talk about. Why is that? Because I have to express it and go through it in my mind. But you're in a kind of, and there's people, I don't know. It's a very good question. I just think that when you write, you're in a little bubble.

I'm not in a bubble right now, am I? and I went to the psychiatrist and I said is there any that first nine days with Toby because do you like dogs and she said and then she talked about Toby this little dog and he said absolutely imprint it's so important those first this imprint and the smells and the feelings in those first few days and so I came into the world and there were dogs there was a little dog there for me already

then I went home after three months to my forever home. There was a dog there for me. And there's a dog here for me now, Maxwell. What was it like, Nikki, when you first became famous? Because it feels to me like that was quite a quick process for you in your 20s after you left university. I think it was quite quick. Yes, I was quite driven and obviously quite manic. Didn't realize why I was manic and then sort of the ups and the downs and the ups and the downs. I was on commercial radio. I left my graduation lunch to go and finish some jingles on commercial radio.

I was already working on North Sound Radio in Aberdeen. And then I did that for a bit. Then I sent a tape to Capitol Radio and they asked me to come down and do some debts. And I got a show on Capitol Radio working with my first changeover was with Kenny Everett. I was doing a Saturday and an afternoon show my very first show. And I had to walk around the block four times before I could summon a show. the courage to walk in. Do you remember the capital building on Houston Road?

I do. Yeah. So I went around the block. There was the hotel there and there's Warren Street. I went round and around that block. Kenneth Williams used to, used to walk up and down all the time. And so I went in and then the man said,

come up and do a changeover with Kenny Everett. I mean, goodness me, can you imagine? And so I went up the stairs into the studio. because he was on before me. And I said, he said, what's your name? I said, Nicky Cameron said, don't be too good. I shall have you grotted and dragged down Houston Road. And I was thinking, he was, it was great.

When I was walking down Houston Road all those years later, about to implode, I did think afterwards that it had come to pass. Because then I collapsed outside Houston Station in a heap of sort of misery and confusion. But then I later thought about it, but maybe it was Kenny, dragging me down Houston Road. Well, I was sat there. Can you imagine how terrifying it? I was sat there in a studio. He like here, microphone, just across, not a very big studio there at Capitol Radio, lots of carts and records and all sorts of stuff. And then all of a sudden, I'm in there, and Kenny Everett's looking at me. And then I'm downstairs, and I'm about to do the show.

That's about quarter to two. So I go downstairs, and the show's at two, and I go and get my things. then Alan Freeman comes up to me and says, Are you nervous? I said, yes, I am a bit. He said, good, because if you're not nervous, you won't be any good, not off. And that's so right. So true, isn't it? If you're not nervous, you won't be any good.

You just came across always as so unusually sort of confident, sort of charming, handsome, controlled. Were you sort of faking it until you made it, essentially? Well, I think I was trying too hard, certainly, and I was propelled into a very bizarre situation all of a sudden, Radio 1. It was like stepping into Jurassic Park in many ways. All those people there, that's another story. But it was, you know, they all came off the pirate ships, and so it was stretching into another era, and it was bizarre. So part of you is there in it

And the other part of you is observing it all the time And so Yeah, and then I think I mean, I look back now Because they play Top of the Pops on a Friday night On BBC 4 And they play They play the Wheel of Fortune on Challenge TV

The ghosts of Christmas past for me You know, clang, clang, clang, there they are I mean, great, I mean, but I get the text on a Friday night So I know I'm on and I know I'm in it. And I get these, there's the text of bizarre hair and shirts. And people say, oh, you're getting, look at it. You're a bit young and so, oh, it's here. And I always get the one saying, I hated you then.

I hated you now. I said, well, thanks for getting in touch. You know, that's social media, you know. Thanks for reaching out. It's nice of you. And but then I kind of, I look at it. And I see kind of someone sort of being very manic and trying too hard and not being terribly relaxed.

And I can obviously identify. with my ups and my downs and I can see it's like watching some other. I know anyone would say that about watching themselves 30 years ago. But in the light of a diagnosis of bipolar, I think I can see stuff. Really? I know you were diagnosed. It wasn't all that long ago, was it? 2009.

Right. And you had this episode, as you say, and you just, it felt like everything just became overwhelming. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to save every single animal in the world and I want to pick up every bit of letter in the world. I just, I would spend hours and hours looking at animals and trying to arrest online, you know, being exploited

and I went into that world because I adore animals so much and see what we're destroying. And it became all-consuming. And all sorts of other things and fixations and obsessions and obsessions and all that stuff. And it's all my life I've been sort of prone to obsessions and fixations and highs and lows. highs are very useful if you're doing quick fire TV or radio and all that sort of stuff.

But it did and I walked down Houston Road. I was, I got got to the station and I just collapsed at sobbing. It's very difficult to talk about it still. And I've written about it and I've been talking about it quite a lot, you know, as I've been talking about the book. So I think it's important to because so many people suffer from things. things. And I think if you are in a position that it's it's not it's not a duty to do it as a slab. It's not it's not a sort of a moral imperative. It's an opportunity. It's a good opportunity to do it and to have people listen to you because you're on a camera or you're on

a microphone. I know as I just dropped to my feet sobbing and sobbing and sobbing and I really thought I couldn't go on anymore. And I um and I rang home. And I said to, and I'm, just thinking, I'm on the ground and I'm like, in my hands, sobbing my hands. I wouldn't have been surprised if a guy had gone past and I said, I didn't like you then and I don't like you now. But anyway, that's just to make light of the situation. Thanks for helping me. So anyway, I rang home and I said to Tina what was going on. And she said, come home, come home now.

Just get in a taxi and come home now because I was heading. up to Solford where we do at Five Live. And she again, it's actually, come home now. And come and see, come and see me, come and see the girls. And come and see Maxwell. And she knew how much Maxwell meant to me. And I just thought, yeah. And I got home and my lovely family were there.

But they were saying, what's wrong? How are you? How are you feeling? What happened? What's going on? What led to it? And so, but by merely answering those questions, I was in those moments again.

So I was feeling all that stuff again. So I didn't want to talk. I just wanted to just dissolve. And so I went upstairs and I lay on the bed. And the next thing I knew was I had jump on the bed. And he lay down beside me. And he, you know, Labradoros do it. Dogs do it.

But Labradoros, I think, I don't know all dogs do. But I know Labrador does it. It's lovely because all bigger dogs because you can really feel the weight and warmth of their head. And he put his head right on my chest. touching my chin and and he's poor on me and I know I know he was trying to help me I I absolutely know he was because they just know and I know that he knew. Oh, that's making me cry. That's so lovely.

That's so lovely. And I'm so, I think it's really good that you are talking about it and I appreciate it's difficult because it's only by being utterly truthful that you really connect with people, you know, and I think that's what's happening with you now. People are saying, I felt that and I relate to that. Also, there's, I don't know much about bipolar and hearing your story, it's helpful in the same way that I'm sure for your family, because I know you've got four daughters now and it's, is it something where you've had to sort of educate them and it's been a joint education for you all about how best to

to deal with it just on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, and they're all intelligent people and they get it. And, you know, I've got a, I've got a daughter who has, you know, I mean, you know, none of us are, it's so common. It's so, I mean, mental health problems are so common. And I got it from Stella. That sounds very brutal. I got it for, but you're adopted people always looking for links.

and I realized when I was diagnosed and then the psychiatrist said, well he said right at the beginning, is anyone in the family with mental health? And I said, no, not really, no. And then he said later on, after a few weeks,

I was lucky enough to be able to speak to him for a long time to get properly diagnosed. And he said, you're bipolar type two. Are you sure there's no one in the family with bipolar type two? And a guy said, no, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, my birth mother. And he said, well, it's hereditary, but can be mitigated by environment so that it doesn't manifest itself quite so severely.

And it wasn't, it's a legacy and it's not a good legacy. It's not a bad legacy, but it's meaningful because it connects me with her. And it makes me understand her so much more to think about it, to think about it, to think about the wildness and the abandoned and the lack of responsibility and the absolutely living for those for those moments and not thinking about consequences so I do understand all that and you know my girls have been I mean when I was just randomly bursting into tears I could see their heart's aching but I wrote this book one of the family Kirstie who is dyslexic And as ADHD, ADHD, what is it?

ADHD, I have it so I know. Do you? I found it like a missing answer. It was like a quest my whole life. Why am I a bit like this? You know, and I hope you felt similarly. I got the feeling you did that it's so great. When I hear about kids being diagnosed in childhood, I think that's so great,

you know, younger. Kirstie, who has that thing, she read it, she was the first to read it, and she is 19 years old, and she read it, and then she sat on Tina, my wife's knee, like a little girl, downstairs on the sofa, and cried. And she said, you know, I understand so much now about daddy, and also there's things in there, you know, feeling, you know, like I don't belong, that I can a lot of people feel. So you were asking, why am I feeling like this and why am I doing this and what's going on in my mind? And so why did you seek diagnosis? Because you're right. When you get diagnosis, it's like, it's not like, whoopee. Yes, I'm bipolar type two. But it's result back in the net. No, it's not that. It's, thank goodness, it is a thing. The thing that I am is a thing.

You know, the way that I behave, the way that I think, the way that the things that's caused me problems and the highs and the lows, it's, that is what it is. Did you feel that? I felt that I'd go around sort of trying to cover it up because I knew there was something off about it that made me different. And then as soon as I got diagnosed properly, I just felt, oh, okay, I'm not, I just have a thing. That's okay. I can handle a thing. that sort of explains why I behave like this. So I was so happy, I'm not saying congratulations. It's such great news about the point point. I'm just, I'm pleased for you that I think it brings peace is what I think it brings and solutions. You know, I want to ask you about Tina, your wife, because I've got to be honest,

I think I kind of want to marry her. Well, she has seen it all and helped me through it in an incredible way. I can't talk about it without getting obviously very emotional. But she's, you know, when I was, I went on to the common one day. This is an example and picked up a whole pile of litter. And because I was on a crew, I was on a mission. And I picked out this and all these receipts and off license and shops and stuff like that. And I went home and I had 100, she came back and I had receipts all over the table.

And I was looking for clues as to where they'd been bought and what time they'd been bought. And I was writing all down in a notebook and trying to work it out. And so I could then call the police. And so, and get these people arrested for dropping litter on the common. I feel that I mean it's a noble cause right you know protecting animals and whatever these are noble causes and I feel very strong about both

but it was to just this extreme position which I take things and was that that's the bipolar that's a mania's yeah and then she came in and she's the she has such she has warmth and empathy and kindness and understanding

and and she just said, you know, she was able to talk me down, you know, and said, look, you know, honestly, it's fine, you know, it's terrible the litter, but I don't, you know, I don't think that, I don't think that police are going to be interested, honey, you know, and all right, aren't they? No, but I, I've got, no, no, honestly, let's come over here, let's sit down, let's have a drink or whatever, or let's have a cup of tea. And so she was very good at managing it and handling it. And goodness only knows where I'd be without her. Goodness only knows. Your family seems to me like the dream dog family

that everyone would want to be in. They are, I mean, you know, population of the globe is not good the way it's exponentially expanding. And I've got four daughters and there is a set. But I've got four environmentalists, you know. So I've got four animal-loving environmentalists who want to do something about saving the planet. So that's my argument.

That's my maya non-culpure. But, you know, they're incredible. And we love our dogs. We absolutely adore our dogs, all of them, because we've got the three dogs, and they're all such characters. And they are the most loved dogs because we're all animal crazy and dog crazy,

and home is a lovely place to be. Oh, that's such a lovely thing to hear you say that, because I think you've had quite a journey. and sorry to sound a bit, Simon Cowell, but you know what I mean by that. I feel also. Do I know what you mean by that? Yeah. Because.

I just don't like Simon Cowell again. Did you feel with your birth home? I felt you got a bit of closure over that finally, didn't you, after looking through the letters that she'd sent you? Which I'd never opened because I'd sort of pulled out of the situation. Oh, it was just the phone calls were going for hours. She wanted to be my mum. and she wasn't my mum.

She wasn't my mummy. She wasn't my mum. She wasn't my mother. She gave birth to me. She was my birth mother. And the hour long phone calls talk about nothing. I suppose the manic cascade of vacuity. And I just couldn't relate and I couldn't connect.

But as I found things out about her and as I realized stuff later on, and a doom long-lost family, meeting birth mothers, meeting birth mothers in all sorts of different situations and speaking to people over the last 11 years on that incredible phenomenon that it is. It gave me an understanding and I remembered things. I remember things that she said. I remember her saying, do you like dogs?

And I knew how much that meant. How much that meant in a very profound way. And I read the letters and I saw certain things in the letters that let me in as well. And I remembered a poem that she spoke about when we first met. the wild swans at cool by W.B. Yates and it's about 59 swans. And she said just right in the first five, ten minutes,

I said, well, what are you interested in? She said, I mean, well, I like poetry. I miss it in literature. And I love the wild swans at Cool by W.B. Yates. Do you know it? I said, I didn't know it. I don't even got right into it. I love, I like Yates.

You know, I love that poem, the second coming. the best have no conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity. Is it that way around? And so I read this poem as I sat there reading the letters. I googled the poem very crudely. I googled Yates and I read this poem. And it was like a message from the past because this poem was about the wild swans at cool and it was about 59 swans.

And I looked into it and one of the sorts of, swans had flown one of the swans had gone one of the swans had disappeared forever there were 59 and i do think that whatever her problems and travails and mental health battles and inability to think about the past speak about the past or exercise any level of analysis about anything i think that was pretty bloody amazing to mention that poem and the swan that was gone forever that must have been really moving when you made the connection. It really, really was. I often ask people when they last cried,

but I don't really feel I need to ask you that because I feel you're a man who doesn't really have problems expressing emotions, honestly. Here's an answer you probably never had. As a guest on Sunday brunch. Was the food that bad? That was great. And Tim and Simon were fantastic.

But I was doing the rounds, talk about the book. and I'm very fortunate to be in a situation to have been able to write it because it's been for me and it's been I just love it when people who are adopted. Everyone's got an amazing story when I've loved to have a long-lost family adopted people saying that's how I feel. Those are all the twists and turns and conflicts and contradictions that I have. And I love that people connect over animals and dogs.

And I love it when people say and they have done, thank you very much for talking about that. Mental health thing, we've got to ask the more talk about it the better. and I love that. I love when people do. And I was talking, Tim and Simon who interview me on Sunday brunch

and I was talking about the breakdown. And I didn't like weep, but I had a, a moment. Yeah, but I cry all the time. Yeah, I cry all the time. If you were with friends and they closed the door

and they were talking about you, what do you hope they'd be saying about you? that I was caring and sensitive and emotionally intelligent, cared for other people, and that we had a great laugh, and I was bloody funny and good company. I have my moments. Do you have a temper, Nikki? No, not really. No. When did I lose my temper?

Oh, I mean, somebody the other day said, I was about Tina in the book, and somebody said she, who's interviewed, it was Ranbio Singh, actually, who was standing in for Lorraine, sitting in for Lorraine, who's a brilliant woman, brilliant journalist. She texted me afterwards and she said, reading a book, Tina sounds like an angel. And I said, yeah, she is. She's a shouty angel.

Did Tina sounds like an angel feel like there was an ellipsis saying, putting up with you? Yeah, no, there is that. But no, it's just, and I think it was the dog mess earlier on. And she said, this is not sustained, this is the last time. And it was earlier leaves my temper in a tiny way. And she said, oh, hello. That's amazing.

So that's a Sunday Times bestseller. Yeah. We're at number three on the Sunday Times nonfiction bestseller list. This is Tina. Hello. Hi, Tina. I'm Emily. Really nice to meet you.

This is Raymond. I just thought I bring this happy news up. Gorgeous dog. Emily was saying she wants to marry you. She sounded like an angel. And I was saying back to you angel. I'm shouting. I am shouting.

You have a lovely dog. When was the last time I lost my temper? About 10 minutes ago. Was it the dog? It was the dog feeding row we had. Oh, was the dog feeding row? You've got to feed the dogs now. It's 10 to 3.

I've got to get, I'm speaking to Emily at 3. Feed the dogs. I can't. I can't feed the dogs. I'm doing a podcast. I don't care about your bloody podcast. I'm busy. Feed the dogs. One of those. That was said.

One of those are asked. I've got his editor on the phone as well. So ring Gillian later. Lovely to meet you, Emily. See you, Tina. Bye. Oh, she's great, isn't she? I only matter because the news reader, Richard Evans,

who's a friend of ours, was, broke his leg on holiday. And Tina stood in to read the news. She used to work from Newsbeat. She reads the news on Radio 4 now and does continuity. I used to listen to Tina on Chris Evans years ago. Chris Evans. She was Chris Evans newsreader.

And she walked into the studio. And I just thought, obviously, I was attracted to her because that's how it works. But also when we met, I just got on with us so well and we became friends. And she's my best friend as well. Isn't that great? Isn't that great that she's my best friend? And you've got Maxwell and the Westies? Yeah, and the girls.

And it's all good. And I'm very pleased to be number three on the Sunday Times nonfiction bestseller list, but even better than that. I'm pleased that I've had messages from people on Instagram. Thank you very much. That's how I feel. Really?

That's... that's amazing it is when people say that when you make yourself vulnerable you realize that there is a sort of power in that isn't there that just even if one person gets in touch and says i read this and i feel so much better about my life you've helped me amazing and it's not i hope it's not doesn't sound sanctimonious but i just think it's it's it's great to be able to connect to people like that that's what broadcasting is you know isn't it isn't it you're connecting to people. It's like a late night radio thing I talk about with the desk lamp and the smoke swirling around the studio and you're just like talking to one person. It's about making connections to people.

And if you can make connections to people and it's the best feeling in the world when I had it doing long-lost families saying, thank you know, that's how I felt. But to doing this and to say, thank you very much for somebody says, thank you very much for helping to explain my life. That's incredible.

I've never really known the answer to this. And I'm just going to ask you, because I think you should always ask people who've experienced things. I know in my family, my cousins were adopted, and I would dread those moments when a grandparent or whatever would say, oh, Emily's just like XYZ. And there'd be a mention of genes and family traits. And there'd be a silence. And everyone would rush to fill in the silence and change the subject. How should people have dealt with that? It is difficult, especially if you don't want other people to know

because if other people know and comment on it, you feel inauthentic. I had a big panic at school when we were in a shop, British home stores. After school, my friend Robert was there with me, and he was coming back to ours because his parents were away. One of those was coming to ours for tea. And he said to me, why he's very clever I mentioned him earlier on

he's a very comedy writer Green Wing Smack the Pony his him and his wife produced and write those that stuff and he said why your eyes blue I thought oh my God he's onto me and I thought I'd been rumbled

and I really panicked I can remember that panic now it must have been about 14 and it was like my whole world was falling through my stomach and you know you get that you go cold inside and then I don't know

a couple of minutes I said why why why why why why why in the neon lit store standing by the pick and mix and he said it's because they have blue eyes have more melatonin or melamina melamalanam and one of those things and i said what do you mean he said well i learned in biology today he's in the top set i wasn't and i just thought it was interesting so all he was doing

was showing off his knowledge of biology but i thought he was pointing a finger at me and saying i'm onto you even though he's my best friend because you just saw traps lurking around every corner because you lived your life a bit like the talent of mr ripley well like a psychopathing Mass Murder. I saw David Tennant playing Dennis Nielsen, right? And I thought, that's me. Yeah, that's me. You need to go and look at find Maxwell now.

Do you want him? Does he sleep on the bed, Nikki? Well, he does now because I have to get up first thing in the morning. And so during the week, I sleep in the spare room because I have to get up at quarter past four. And he sleeps on the bed. Yeah. Yeah, something very soothing about dogs snoring, isn't it?

You wouldn't put up with it, a human being. Same sound. I love dogs on the bed. Some people say no dogs on the bed. Dogs on the bed, dogs on the sofa, dogs on the chairs. Dogs, dog, and he's 13 nearly. He can do whatever he wants. You know, he's given us so much happiness.

And we've given him a good life. And I'm going to give him the best last year, two years, however much that I possibly can because he has done so much for me and he is amazing and I love him with all my heart so you know he can go up on the fucking bed as much as he likes I want to come and meet Maxwell I'm really sad I didn't get to meet you in real life but you know I have ways I'm going to come and come and I might be standing outside your house later that's all I'm saying well you'd be very welcome and we'll be able to go for a walk soon won't we it's been you've been I've so enjoyed talking to you.

You've asked some fantastic questions and you've made me feel very comfortable. I think we have a connection because you've got your own thing going on there, which is so interesting. I'd like to interview you sometime. Maybe you come on my podcast. It's called One of the Family as well,

and it's a kind of doggy thing. There's people, all that stuff. And I do, like, for example, when I'm making it at the moment, I'm going to do the connection between dogs and children. And I've got an interview with Robbie Savage. use for it as well. And then I've got, I've speak to Lorraine Kelly on the one that's going out very soon, but I've also got a feature on pet theft speaking to somebody whose dog was stolen

and they did actually manage to have a reunion six years later, Fern, the dog, and also speaking to Daniel Allen, who's leading the case for pet theft reform, leading the charge to get it tightened it. So I do kind of stuff like that as well. I mean, Ricky Javey's been on her and Deborah Meadden and all sorts of things, but I like to do stuff, stuff on it too. I've done the dog meat trade. I've done everything you want it to know about dogs with Alexandra Horowitz, who's the world's expert on dog cognition, dog evolution. And I've done Gary Linneker on losing his dog.

So I throw lots of stuff in and I write on the music for it as well, which I love doing as well. I write everyone a different theme every week. Lorraine this week I've written a generic breakfast TV theme. What would your theme be like, Nikki? I like a bit of swing. I like to swing one way and swing the other but that's bipolar, right?

I'm so thrilled to have met you, Nikki. I'm going to come around, I'm going to steal Tina and I'm going to steal the dog. Will you, I'm just going to grab Ray. Well, don't steal the dog because of this feature I'm doing on pet theft, you know, is not good if you steal my dog because it is, Frank, you know what, if you steal my dog, it's time to make stealing a mobile phone

or a computer or a television. So it's been a lovely interview. but I think don't go and spoil it all by coming and stealing my dog. Will you say goodbye to Raymond, Nicky? I've heard your book. It's terrible. This has been a terrible interview. It's been a complete waste of, Raymond, Raymond! Raymond! Raymond's lovely. I'll give you that. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.