Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Patrick Grant (Part Two)

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

It’s time for the second part of our walk with Patrick Grant! Patrick tells us about his passion for material sciences and then what led him to the decision to buy a tailors on Saville Row after seeing an advert in the Financial Times. Patrick tells us about the impact of the Great British Sewing Bee, as well as the joys of making more and using less. Patrick’s book LESS - Stop Buying So Much Rubbish: How Having Fewer Better Things Can Make Us Happier is available now! Keep up with Patrick on Instagram @patrickgrantismCatch up with The Great British Sewing Bee on BBC iPlayerFollow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Really hope you enjoy part two of this week's Walking the Dog. Do remember to listen to Part One if you haven't already and we'd love it if you subscribe to Walking the Dog. Here's Ray Ray. I've always been fascinated by your backstory. Not in a creepy way you understand, but you talk about playing rugby at school and there's me making quite lazy assumptions thinking,

oh, this Saville-Roman in the scrum. But of course what I see is this pattern of there is a kind of boldness and of fearlessness and it's like not afraid of risks. Yeah. And you'd done material sciences at university, hadn't you? So that's essentially it's the properties. Well, it's about how things are made. So I said in material science and engineering, the whole degree is about how you make everything. What you make it from, how you make it, in order to make the very best.

quality thing that you can possibly make and to ensure that it remains a good thing for a long time and so as a kid I'd been I'd been into making stuff and you know I was very lucky that at school I had the opportunity to do all sorts of things you know at school we were you know we had woodwork we had pottery we had metal work we had we even had a taxidermy class on a Friday afternoon which I don't think many schools had props to Gillian R. Buffnott

for teaching us that on a Friday, our biology teacher. We did a fox. Somebody fainted at the smell. Like there was a fly tying club at the Edinburgh Academy. You could do like, you know, you could learn how to tie flies

for fly fishing. All of these things were things that it was just quite normal that you got a chance to do and I was really fascinated by how stuff was made. I had a book, which I mentioned in the book

called How It's Made. You know, it was just, endlessly fascinated. I was into science. I won a science prize at school, at prep school, and was just fascinated with how it all worked and it was always, always loved really nicely made things. So even though I was into clothes, I would rather have one good thing than 10 sort of averagey things or rubbishy things. After you graduated, you were working a bit for various, I suppose technology companies. Yeah, well I worked, yeah.

I mean, BICC was really an engineering and technology company. Corning was really a technology company. They were a glass company. They were the inventors of Pyrex. So they made a fortune in the early years out of oven-proof glass. There's a bit in Steve Jobs' biography where he talks about developing the iPhone and he needs to find a glass that is conductive and very tough so that it doesn't break

every time you drop your phone which of course apples all do and he went to see this guy called Wendell Wheat who'd been he wasn't my direct boss but he was my boss's boss at Corny he went to see Wendell and he said oh you know I need I need you to develop a really tough glass that's also conductive and Wendell said oh we've already got that we've had that for 30 We developed it in the 70s or something. We just didn't have any use for it. We'll go and get it out the cupboard.

That conversation would have been. Oh, that you mean? Yeah, of course we can give you that. Yeah, yeah. And then I worked for another British tech company. We made integrated optical components in silicon. Right. So all of this is fascinating, but not remotely like what's about to happen.

which is Patrick Grant, if I'm right, is reading Financial Times or something one day. And you see an advert whilst you're doing an MBA, you know, because you're interested presumably in furthering your business career or just, you know. Yeah, exactly. I toyed with the idea of going back to university to become an architect. Then I thought I'd go and become a gardener. Oh, do you know I'm seeing you as the modern day capability, Brown, on. You've got that.

I decided that I wasn't quite sure. So I then came across an article about MBAs and I thought that would just be interesting. At the moment it seems your career has taken you into business. So suddenly some might say rather randomly

Patrick Grant you decided to buy a tailor's in Savile Row. Yeah. And that's a huge decision, isn't it? And presumably an expensive one? To be honest. with you, I didn't feel like, I've never been really that worried about money. Why do you think that is?

Well, we never, we, I don't know. I always kind of, it's never been a big part of how I enjoy my life. So, you know, without it, I'm pretty sure that things will still be all right. I've never really worried about, I mean, we were, we were sort of comfortably, comfortably off, but not incredibly well off. I mean, I went to a public school. My parents had to sacrifice a lot for the fees. And then my dad was made redundant while I was,

I think I was doing my A levels at Barnacastle, and they gave me a, they gave me a bursary to allow me to stay at school, for which I'm extraordinarily grateful. So although it was quite expensive, and I had to sell my house and my car and everything, you know, basically all the money, everything that I'd earned up until that point went into this business but I felt you know I didn't feel like it was a massive risk because I don't know I just thought it would work out so you're quite

confident then I've all well I've been you've had some belief people I guess and my friends I think would concur that things just seem to work out I don't know I'm always very positive that they will I'm always very optimistic and something comes along even at the time you know even when there were times at Norton's where things looked dire, you know, financially in the early years, that something always happened that's just, you know, that kept the lights on. Maybe that's because you were optimistic. Well, I think, I do believe that that it's right, you know, I think I'm not a, I'm not a

warrior. My sister started working for me and after a few weeks she was like, oh my God, has it always been like this? I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, well, we've got no money. and with other thing. And I'm like, well, yeah, of course. But that's all right.

Hello, it'll be all right. And this Taylor's that you saw was called Norton and Sons. Yes. And it had been there since, what, the sort of mid-19th century, presumably? No, it had been started in the very early night. Well, in 1821, it was founded. And by 2005, it was on its uppers. And it was losing a lot of money.

And the family that owned it, I think couldn't see a way to turning it around. And so they put it up for sale. And it was literally an ad, wasn't it? It was in the classifieds. And you probably can't say exactly how much it cost you, but was it the price of a house? I mean, you could, yeah, it was sort of,

I mean, it was more than the price of an average house in this country, but, you know, not as much as the price of a, small flat in London. Okay. So it for me it was a lot of money. Yeah. And when we started, we had nothing in the bank and we had to do it all on a shoestring. And actually every business I've run has been run on an absolute shoe string. I mean, we started community clothing on a shoe string. Everything's been done on a shoe string. You know, luckily I had a, you know, my mum and my granny, had my dad, you know, grew up knowing the value of things and not being wasteful and

thinking carefully before money was spent and all of that sort of behaviour was was quite normal to me. What did they make of you on Saville Roe Patrick? Because presumably you were quite different to a lot of them because you're pretty young and I suppose there was an element of rebranding. Well, on the whole everybody was really encouraging and and I think happy that Norton's had been taken over by somebody who wanted to do the right thing by it because I think everybody who has a business on Saville Row understands that in order for the place to survive and thrive all of the houses need to be doing well you know it is a community that needs sort of

strength in numbers yeah and I was the youngest that the time I was the youngest governor on Saville Row, but even now that I'm no longer day-to-day involved in Norton's, you know, I still am on great terms with my neighbours. I imagine my neighbours on the street might have been a little bit nervous, but I think from very early on, they realised that I was serious about doing it the right way, and then I was committed to all of the things that were important to Savile Row. Yeah, you know, the craftsmanship, the training, the celebration of everything that's good about it. I was not trying to modernise what we did.

I was just trying to give it a sense of personality and make it feel relevant for a more modern audience. But, you know, Norton's has always been a bespoke business and it's been very committed to all of that. And it's been important. So what's interesting is you are presumably, you were very discreet, weren't you? And that was part of the deal there

and also who you are, I imagine. But there were royals and celebrities and also sort of establishment figures coming through your doors all the time. Yeah. So I get the impression that you were quite liked and that was part of why the business worked as well. Yeah, I got on really well with my customers.

And we would have really lovely and fascinating conversations about, you know, the world of clothes. I mean, obviously, customers come in primarily to have a bit of clothing made, but they also, it's an enjoyable conversation about clothes in general, about all sorts of things in general. I mean, my customers really liked, you know, when I started community clothing, lots and lots of them were incredibly taken with the idea and many of them became, community clothing customers for things other than their tailored clothes. And, you know, from the start, really, because there's a lot, actually weirdly, even though they are at the complete opposite ends of the price spectrum, there's a lot that Norton and Sons and Community Clothing have in common. You know, in every aspect of what we do, we're striving to make things that have really, really long-lasting value.

But the clothes that we make, people keep for decades and sometimes, centuries, century. You know, we look after our clothes forever. You know, we are encouraging people to make their clothes last as long as possible. So Norton and Sons, oh, let's go here quickly, Patrick. I just need this in my life just because it's so beautiful this Versailles area.

There's a zoo over there. I mean, a tiny zoo. Oh, I love a zoo. Isn't this beautiful this? I went out with a girl briefly whose family had a zoo. in their garden of their quite large house in Northamptonshire. I'm sorry.

I turned up for the weekend. I'm like, oh, you've got to zoo. I went out with a girl whose family had a zoo. Yeah. So the tailor's, you were menswear designer of the year and Norn and Sons became this huge brand. And then COVID kind of killed off. your business really, didn't it?

Yeah, between COVID and the Tory government. Yeah. Yeah, it was bad. It was right back to the beginning again, really, for us. I mean, luckily, luckily, we found a new partner who enabled Norton's to carry on. Because, you know, financially it was a disaster after COVID. We'd been shut for nine months and we had no other English. come beyond bespoke tailoring.

How are you in situations like that when your back's against the wall? Are you quite stiff up a little? I'm quite, I'm just very pragmatic about these things. Are you? Are you? You have to just, you have to face it and deal with it and that's it. Well, that's the calm scientist in you. Yeah.

Do you think that's true? You're quite sort of pragmatic in some ways. I think that is the only way really to face things. Well, yeah, it may be, but not everyone. like that. I would literally be there going, we're going into administration. I don't know what to do. You don't strike me as a panicker. Well, yeah, I mean, Debenham's went bust and owed us a third of a million quid. And so do you cry when that happens? You can't. You know, you just got to, you just got to pick yourself up and get on with it. It's not coming back.

It's done. It's gone. You'd be so good in the army. You've got the real kernel mentality. haven't you though? Well I don't know I've never really thought much about it. No I have. I have thought about it. Have you? Yeah. You really? I think I think most people who run their own business have to have that kind of sense that most things are fixable and if they're not as long as you do your best to try and fix them you can't feel any remorse for it. You know we all we work really hard at community clothing. We all do our best. Sometimes things go wrong. but that's okay because as long as everybody's done their best and tried as hard as they can do

you can't beat yourself up about it you know you can feel happy that you've done your best and that's always I think the approach I think people that start their own business have to really like know that things will go wrong they'll always work hard to try and fix them and if they can't that's just how it goes I think never mind these people that write these self-help books and do podcasts I think you are Very inspirational. I love the way you talk about things, and I like your attitude. How did sewing bee come about?

Because obviously most people will know you from that. As we've been walking, we're just going past a beautiful fountain, aren't we? Are they? So nice, not just how it looks, but how it sounds. I lived in Vale in Colorado for the best part of a year, and the second house I lived in was down by the river. It was in the summer. I would sleep with the windows wide open

and I would hear the river. It was the best sleep I ever had. Yeah. It's incredibly soothing, isn't it? But I've noticed while we've been on our walk, there's been a lovely response to you. People just looking and saying, smiling, they look happy to see you.

Yeah. Well, I think our show is a source of happiness for people. Everybody that makes it, we're all happy people and the contestants that we have on are all happy people and I think when you watch the show you get a sense that we're all enjoying ourselves and that's a good thing. Come on Raymond. His tongue's out, look.

Oh, he's really, he's at the limit of his physical capability there. How is he going to manage with these steps? Oh, look at that. It's like badminton horse trials. where they come down there. Come on, Raymond. One more, Raymond. He got to Beechersbrook and he nearly failed, but he made it.

There was a moment's hesitation. I call it Sowingby. Everyone does. But Sowingby has taken off in such a huge way. Were you surprised? I've never really thought about it. I think our expectations at the beginning were quite modest. I know that the BBC were hopeful that we'd get a million viewers.

on that first series and we got about twice that many. Then it grew. I don't think I had expectations because telly wasn't my job. Tele viewing numbers weren't my, you know, they weren't a metric I had any sense of. And so when we went from two to three

to four to five to six, you know, it felt great. I mean also we were making a, you know, I think it's a great show. And we've always had brilliant people working on it. You know, Claudia was amazing. Esme is a force of nature. May, who was our first judge, was lovely.

Esme is just a sort of unique character. Joe was brilliant, Sarah was brilliant, Kyle's been brilliant, and most importantly, all of our contestants have been amazing. From all ages, all walks of life, from all over the place, but they're just all positive. They love what they're doing, they're having a great time, time and I think that shows when you watch the show you you get a sense that

fun stuff is happening in a room in Leeds and it is we all love doing it genuinely it's the easiest thing I do all year really you can tell that the because everybody knows exactly what they're doing it's like it's the least stressful thing that I have in my life by miles and you've had incredible feedback Patrick because somebody actually wrote to you didn't there and said The show is partly responsible for helping their business, save their business. I think it's... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, really early... I was really early on. It was a haberdashery in Essex. There had been a family business that had been on the verge of closing it down. And rather than closing it down, they'd actually ended up expanding and taking a lease next door. There were all sorts of stories like that. But also, I think it's really, really helped a lot of people rediscover the idea that making something feels really. good and I think particularly during lockdown we ran a thing called the big community

so that was all about getting volunteers to make face coverings for friends and neighbours and family and it was obviously incredibly useful because the volunteers made lots and lots of face coverings about a million and a half we reckon but equally importantly those people who were making them were given a sense of purpose during a time when so many people were feeling isolated and useless. And it was such a great thing. I've got a letter. I found a letter the other day.

I actually pinned it on my wall from a guy called Lord Agnew, who was a head of all of this stuff at the cabinet office, just saying, you know, thanks for doing something really important. Because I love your show, and I watch it all the time, I think it has sort of seeped in a bit. Like I found myself the other day and I thought, oh, I had this top and it was slightly too low cut for my tastes

and years. And I thought, do you know what? I'm not going to chuck it out. I'm going to sew it. Yeah. It was so amazing. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I felt so happy when I was wearing it

because I told it myself. It's not ridiculous at all. Yeah. Why did I feel happy? Sowing things, fixing things. All of that. stuff, you know, there is something really sort of deep within our nature that loves the process of bringing something back to life or fixing something or making something. Right back to the

earliest human experience, we've loved making things with our hands. Right the way back to the beginning, we were always fascinated by trying to make tools and trying to to fashion our universe, the world around us. We look at things and we see material, we see wood, we see stone, we see all of these things and we're fascinated by trying to shape them to make our life better and easier. And that is still inside of us. And that is why when we do make things or we fix things, it does feel really good, especially if you do it yourself. But even if you don't do it yourself, even if you give something to somebody to be mended, it still feels good. You've extended the life of something

and that is the right thing to do in all situations you know the right response to something breaking is to fix it not to throw it away and buy another one I fixed a pair of slippers the other day well not the other day

the other month now but now every time I put them on I feel really good because I had to put a bit of cotton woven tape around the edge and sew it on now I like the one that's fixed more than the one that isn't fixed.

Because, you know, I can see, I can see where my effort and my skill has gone into it. And it's like the Japanese have this love of mended and fixed things that they celebrate as a sort of nation. We don't have that. But I think we're starting to learn it. They do that with pottery, don't they? They do it with pottery, kentsugi. They do it with fabrics, borrow. So the idea that the more it's mended or patched, the more valuable it becomes, because it has earned something new.

It's been given, you know, it's been given our love and our skill, you know, that has passed into the object and makes the object more valuable. You've written this brilliant book called Less. I really couldn't put it down, Patrick. I absolutely loved it because there's so much fascinating history. in terms of our relationship with clothes, objects, you know. So all that history, so much stuff I didn't know about that. I found that so interesting. And you're really meticulous and rigorous, which is the scientist in you.

But it also is a bit of a manifesto, isn't it? If people picked up your book less, what would you like them to go away and do and think? Well, I just want everybody to think more carefully about everything that they buy. Think about where it's come from, think about where the money you're spending goes, because we're at a point in the evolution of the way our economies work that is fairly critical. We've had 50 years now of a very particular form of capitalism in this country that just hasn't worked for most people. And it certainly hasn't worked for the planet. You know, we've become so hooked on buying such a huge quantity of mostly terrible quality stuff.

And none of it does anybody at all any good. It doesn't do us any good as consumers because the things we have are rubbish. It doesn't do the people who make them any good because they're paid almost nothing. And it certainly doesn't do the planet any good because they're made out of things that cause enormous harm when they're made and cause enormous harm when they're disposed of, which of course they are almost immediately after. immediately after they're bought because they have no lasting value and I think it's just it's just giving people the tools to make those kind of assessments and and sort of you know it's okay to question this stuff you've got to be

aware that we are being very deliberately sold to all the time and that that is something that actually doesn't make us any happier or healthier or wealthier or anything it only does good for a tiny number of already very rich people. And when you say we are being deliberately sold to, you mean often we think we're making conscious choice and we're not? Yeah, well, it's just in almost everything we see and do, you know, you can't you can't escape being flogged something. Whatever you happen, I mean, we're in a park and there are advertising banners. But every time we open our phones, even if we're just watching TV, you know, somebody's selling us something somehow.

And if we recognise that this is what's happening, we can make a much more conscious decision to reject it. I think I said... I was at a thing yesterday. I was at a UN event yesterday. And it was, there were a number of, it was a UN Global Compact event. I was giving a talk. And there are lots of businesses in room and there were various people from she in there and they were attempting to justify their existence and the rooms just looking at them going it doesn't matter what you say you are all wrong from your into your very bones there is nothing good about your company it is all bad and there are so many companies that are like that that just cannot be changed because you know the

way they're set up is purely to sell you more and more things and the only way they can conceive of competing against the others in their space is to sell you more, faster, cheaper. Poorly made. And that is a hundred percent a problem. We have to support new businesses that have new models that are away from that. And I think that's what I hope people will do, is just to question, just to question the whole setup of all of this stuff. Because there is plenty of, you know, we can still have a thriving economy that doesn't

revolve around ever increasing volumes of consumption. You know, every time you repair something, that is good money going into the pocket of somebody who is doing something good. Every time you buy a second hand, every time you buy a high-quality thing that's well made, all of that activity is helpful. And we can still have a big thriving economy. You know, at the moment, most of the value in the money we spend just disappears off somewhere else. You know, Bezos is getting richer and richer and nobody else is really benefiting. Well, you said something in the book which really made me think, which is every time you buy from these, you know, these big brands, all you're doing is putting money directly into the pockets of one of the three richest billionaires in the world. Yeah.

And it's none of it is going to the person who made it. A tiny percentage. I mean, not enough to raise them out of poverty. You know what? It really made me think as well. because you talk a lot about objects which have so much meaning to you, stuff owned by your dad and even your grandma, there's this plum sweatshirt. And it was so vividly described.

I know exactly what it will be, you know, with the slight backwing sleeves. I was thinking back to my parents who are no longer with us. And I think, my mum, she was very from that generation, probably similar generation to your parents, where we said, why have you got those horrible old dinner service? from like the 60s. And she used the same plates and bowls for 34, and they lasted.

Yeah, yeah. I'm starting to realise, oh God, I think she was right. They were right. Like she kept all her clothes, Bieber stuff from the 60s and beautiful. Well, they hadn't grown up with the same sort of relentless indoctrination that we need new. Right.

You know, we've had, we've been sold this idea of new, new, new, new, all of our lives. They hadn't. They had grown up. I mean my mum, you know, was born during the war and they grew up with we have to make this last. That is the right way to do it. That is the right way to do it. You know, the idea that our economy somehow only works if we're consuming huge quantities of new stuff is complete bullshit. It doesn't have to be that way at all. My mum had get my darning box out. Yeah. Now who has a darling box now? I have a darning pouch. I love it. You have a darning pouch. I don't do a lot of darning. I have a darning mushroom that's a baker-like darning mushroom that's got a little screw-off lid. And so my darning needles and darning thread are inside the mushroom.

I love your darning mushroom. That sounds weird. Don't take that out of context. It's not weird. Patrick, well, I loved your book and it made me feel so inspired. and I thoroughly agree with everything you say, but also I think, you know, to go back to when we started, little slightly rebellious nuisance Patrick,

who I called a changemaker, look, what he turned into? Yeah. He was a change maker. Well, we haven't changed it yet. No, but you're starting. You're trying. We're doing. Well, we are, and I think community clothing shows

that it's possible to run a business differently. Which we should say as your brilliant clothing range, which isn't just a clothing range, it's a sort of social enterprises. The stuff is so beautifully made as well. Yes. And it's the difference. But also it's affordable.

It's affordable. And what's interesting is that you realise something like a sweatshirt, which you can just see the quality. The kind of sweatshirt you'd get from community clothing you'd have for 30 years. Well, you'll have it, I hope, much longer than that. Because I don't know if I'm going to be around much longer. Well, I've got, you know, the sweatshirts that this was based on are sweatshirts that I'm. bought second hand in the 90s that were at least 20 years old then and they're

still in brilliant well you know they're worn a lot and they are still in brilliant nick now you know that sort of heavy heavy gauge loopback that just gets better for the first 25 years of having it and then just sort of carries on importantly it's creating a lot of work yeah you know we count the number of hours of work we we create we just we just did the half the half-yearly update just the other day. And up until the end of June this year, we've created over 380,000 hours of work in the UK.

That's amazing. It's all good work. People are swapping from the bad quality stuff to the good quality stuff in ever-growing numbers. And we're very pleased about that because every person that comes and buys our stocks instead of a bad stock from somebody else is creating good work here in the UK.

We're just creating good work because most of the people that make that cheap stuff, it's not good work. No. It's temporary, it's badly paid, it's as lowly paid as they can possibly get away with. Listen, what's this, sports day? It's a state of the art these young,

but we didn't have loudspeakers in my day. Absolutely not. Patrick, I wanted to say, I was listening to you on Desert Island Discs, actually, which was lovely. And it was really heartbreaking and very touching, though, because you welled up a bit talking about losing your dad. I'm really sorry.

That must have been so tough because this was as a result of COVID, wasn't it? Yeah. That you lost him. Well, I was quite lucky in a way because I had, because it was very early in COVID, I had been to see him only about a week before he died. He was actually, he was in hospital. anyway for a fairly routine operation.

So I'd been in to see him. There'd been a delay in doing the operation for some reason. Maybe his stats had fallen off. I can't remember. But I'd been in to see him. I actually gave him a little haircut and trimmed his beard and gave him a hug. And so in a funny way versus a lot of people, I was quite lucky

because when he was diagnosed with COVID on the Friday and he was dead by the Monday, Sunday and a lot of people were in that same situation. They were not just were not able to say goodbye to loved ones. You know, we couldn't have a funeral. I feel it could have been a lot worse. I think for a lot of people it was a lot worse. So I don't feel, yeah, I feel okay about it.

It's really interesting. Having spoken to you and I've loved chatting to you, I think you're such an interesting man. But you seem exactly the kind of person I would want on hand in a crisis. Are you good in a crisis? Yeah, I think I am. I just, you know, yeah, I think I'm just sort of straightforward and deal with things. I'm a doer.

I like, you know, yeah, I'll just, I'm, and I work hard. Are you quite direct and good at confronting people? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Well, I'm quite straightforward. I think you see it if you watch our show, you know, just being truthful and honest about stuff shouldn't feel confrontational. I think it's, you know, I think we are allowed to address things we feel unhappy about and we're allowed, you know, we're allowed to express the truth as we see it. And you can do it in a way that doesn't feel, you know, nasty or unduly confrontational.

And I think that's, you know, I think we, I think actually people see that on sewing bee. They're like, you know, we, if something's bad, we'll say it. But we won't sensationalise it or, you know, bang on and on about it. We just tell it how it is and move on. Well, that's why it's such a lovely show. And you know what, Patrick Grant? I think you're a really lovely man. You're every bit as lovely as I'd hope.

Thanks very much. You've got a very good energy. I'm taking you round the weird back. We're going round the back of the bins. It's actually for quite. My bike's around here, so there she is. She's a Pashley. Can you imagine if we got round the back and he had some big gas-guzzling, horrible city boy car?

Patrick, it's been an absolute pleasure walking with you. And I really honestly urge people to buy your brilliantly written book, Les, because it is a thing of genius and joy, and I loved it. So, congratulations. Well, thank you very much. How do you take compliments? them are you okay with them I'm okay with them I think I'm getting better at them yeah yeah yeah thank you very much indeed and finally what have you made of

Raymond Patrick Raymond here he is he's coming to say a final hello hi Raymond by Raymond it's been a pleasure bye bye he's looking even more sloth like now because he looks like he's due a nap I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog we'd love it if you subscribed and do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you podcasts.