Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Pierre Novellie (Part One)

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

This week, Emily and Ray are taking a stroll with our very good pal - the brilliant and hilarious comedian Pierre Novellie. Pierre’s had previous on this podcast - but we thought we were well due a catch up, because a lot has happened in his life since we last spoke on the podcast…As well as being one of the funniest people we know - Pierre is also one of the most intelligent people we know - and taking a walk with him is an endlessly fascinating thing to do. We discussed what his childhood was like and the challenges he faced socially - and how he reflects on that now he has an autism diagnosis. We also chatted about our reactions to unwanted noises, Pierre’s fascination with the military and why he is driven by curiosity and likes to surround himself with people who are the same. Follow @pierrenovellie on InstagramPierre is performing his new stand-up show You Sit There, I’ll Stand Here at the Edinburgh Fringe from 28th July - 24th August at 19:05 at Monkey Barrel 3. You can buy your tickets here!You can listen to Frank, Pierre and Emily on the Frank Off The Radio podcast which is available on all podcast platforms. You can also listen to Pierre on BudPod which he co-hosts with Glenn Moore - and his brand new podcast Button Boys, a gaming podcast he hosts with Glenn and Sarah Keyworth! Order Pierre’s brilliant book Why Can’t I Just Enjoy Things? A Comedian’s Guide To Autism here - https://geni.us/pierrenovelliepb Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emThank you to Dex Roy for his production support on this episodeWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was happy, though, to strip and clean a simple rifle, but I was not happy to touch seaweed with my foot. Understandable, fair enough. This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I met up with a very good pal of ours, the hilariously funny and almost terrifyingly intelligent, comedian Pierre Novelli. Pierre recently moved to Ealing and West London,

so we took a stroll in the lovely Lammas Park so we could have a catch-up, and Ray could have a nose around Pierre's new manner. Pierre and I were introduced by Frank Skinner when we co-hosted our radio show together, and when we left, I say left, we were basically let go. The three of us like working together so much, we decided to continue our chats on a weekly podcast called Frank Off the Radio, and I'd obviously love it if you gave that a listen.

Pierre's also, of course, an immensely talented stand-up, and I'm honestly not just saying that because he's my pal. He's just side-splittingly funny and smart. And in fact, he's heading to the editor. Brough Festival in August with his brand new show, You Sit There, I'll Stand Here. It's on from the 28th of July through to the 24th of August, so do book your tickets now. He's also written a really enlightening, funny and compelling book about his late autism diagnosis called Why Can't I Just Enjoy Things, which I can guarantee you will absolutely enjoy. So I really recommend you

check it out. Pierre is always a wonderful person to spend time with, not just because you get the benefit of his genius wit and his frankly colossal eye cloud of a brain. But also because he's just a thoroughly decent, lovely human being. He's basically got the smarts of a border collie, the dependability of a Labrador and the impressive physical presence of a German shepherd. What I'm saying is he's the mixed breed dog we all need in our lives. You can go back and listen to Pierre's previous appearance on this podcast if you want to hear more about the Novelli origin story and do try and catch it. show in Edinburgh. I really hope you enjoy our chat with the wonderful Mr. Novelli. I'll stop

talking now and hand over to the brilliant man himself. Here's Pierre and Ray Ray. Right Pierre. Let's leave the lovely, what's it called, Mivka coffee? Mivka or Muka? I'm not really sure. Well, you're the language expert, so that looks MVCA, looks Russian to me. Yeah, maybe sort of Bulgarian Balkan or something. I mean, I'm only 30 seconds. already he said Balkan. I think if it was Russian they would just call it cafe or something, you know. A bit more unapologetic the Russians. Yeah, I think so.

Café, you like or no? Café. You want coffee or what? He's from Turkey. Cafe, deal with it. Deal with it. Yeah. Would you mind holding raised water bottle? Oh yeah.

So we're now entering Lamas Park? Lamas Park and it's almost it's almost Lamas Day what is Lamass Day? First of August I think so one of those church calendar things that we've forgotten about in society like since Sweden's Day or whatever what does Lamass mean it's something like holy loaf or something you take all your bread to church you get it blessed all the new bread yeah it's the police coming to arrest people who haven't taken their bread to church oh here at the front of Lamas Park which is a it's an Ealing we should say

Yeah. It says Lammis originated from Loafmas Day. Merry Loafmas. Which was a harvest festival celebrated on the 1st of August. Almost there. Villagers were allowed to graze livestock on fields and commons known as Lammis lands. Isn't this fascinating? Poor Loafmas day.

They haven't had a very good PR. Whoever was doing Christmas says Trump them. Yeah, Loafmas, Candlemas, all of the misses. They've gone. They're not as fun as Christmas. Well, it's a beautiful part. I'd celebrate love must day but then I eat too much bread. Ah. So that's my bias there maybe.

I think we should maybe seek a little shade if that's alright with you. Yeah, it's a hot old day. Let's find a shady tree that Ray could maybe sit under. There's a shady log from some logs from some... Yeah, we could sit there. How deep does it go this part? Fairly. You could sort of see there through. They've done... this is some whole saga that I've moved to Ealing now.

And I'm not... I'm sort of... I have to become one of those... people that cares about the local scandals and there's some problem with having there was standing water so they dug up the park and that made it worse and then they have to fence it off in case dogs run in and I don't know it's some huge problem that I can't quite get my head around. They're little trees these is really lovely sort of in memorium trees. Oh yes and one in Dutch. Ellie van der linden it says. Liefs the mama in Omar, beloved mother and grandmother. Do you understand that then? That I can

say, for altitude in our heart, always in our heart, I think. How come you understand that? It's very similar to Afrikaans. In our ownse heart is in our ownse heart is heart. You know, it's pretty close. For much of altitude, for all time, maybe. It's not being out with a professor sometimes. An incredibly limited professor. Oh, hello, boxer. Hello, darling. I love boxers. What's the name?

Toby. He looks like a Toby. They're very high energy, aren't they? They are, yeah. Luckily, not so much when it's hot. Yes. I love boxers. I love a boxers. Is it an under mite or an overbite they have?

The fish is under, yeah. I love that. It's just so comical. They look permanently comical. They sort of dance around on their pores, don't they? They're actually very gentle dogs as well. They're good family dogs, aren't they? It's been great with them.

We're just sort of tap. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm so glad. You're so lovely. I bet very protective and loving as well. Not protective at all. Fortunately. Oh, bye-bye, Toby.

This sweep, yeah? Yeah. What do you think of boxers? I quite like them. I think they're quite stupid. So that if you want to train a dog, I think it's maybe, you know, they're not very trainable, I don't think. Wow, I didn't see that coming.

That's nothing against them. Imagine if someone said to you, what do you think of Emily? I quite like her. I think she's quite stupid. She's very untrainable. Let's sit down here on a lovely bend. dedicated to two people that looked like Polish maybe. That's Polish for sure, yeah.

Pierre and I, just so everyone is aware, are both extremely noise sensitive. And there's a lovely woman nearby who I think is maybe in the middle of a duolingo session and doesn't have the volume turned down, so every time she's gaining XP, we're hearing about it. I think anyone who buys a phone and doesn't immediately put it on silent as they leave the shop is incomprehensible to me.

Really? I don't need those noises. It's such a thing on trains. I don't like those kind of noises, so. I don't love them, but at least they're driving past. Yes, but my view on that, or my reaction to that, is that that's unavoidable. Yes, exactly. And someone's life might be saved as a result.

So I'm willing to tolerate noise. Cars need to get out the way. Yeah. Necessity is a big part of defuse. it. Right. But if someone is... Do you linger? You don't need the owl hooting it to you every time you remember a verb.

What about when someone has the keypad on, do you hate that? Oh, the little click-clank sound. Click-click, click, click, click on a train? Baffling. Yeah, exactly. Would you go over and say something? No, because it's almost always because they're like a grandma or a grandpa who's just like doesn't know how phones work. What I'm baffled by...

It's general, can I be honest, the click. clacking, I'd say, I'm going to go so far as to say 95% of the time it does come from a wallet phone. Very much so. A grandpa wallet phone. And a Christmas present leather case. Sometimes, one time I got closest to saying, come on, man, was when it was someone like my age who had them on. And I just thought, how's this happened? Don't you have friends?

Don't you have people who can intervene in your life and save you from this? This is very embarrassing. So, yeah, I'm so thrilled. You've come on this podcast. again. Oh, me too. Because you've had previous with us. Yes.

But a lot has happened in your life since the last time you came on. Yes. So I thought we'd get you back on again. And let's be honest, you loved Ray, you bonded. I actually think you're cut from the same cloth. Do you think? Hmm. Weighed down by hair.

No, I think he's thoughtful and... He's non-reactive. Yeah. And I'm very non-reactive. Yes. I think that's definitely true. I mean, what I'm trying to say, and I think it might, I don't know if it's the right thing to say, because it might sound a bit weird,

is I think my dog is on the spectrum. I think my dog is autistic. Online, the big thing is all a cancer autistic where... Really? Yeah, because they sort of... They want affection until they don't, or they have sort of odd habits, or whatever, it's a meme, really.

But maybe, maybe, Ray. Is he very routine driven as a dog? Some dogs have a routine programmed in. Well, I think most dogs, by definition, are a little more ADHD because they're sort of exuberant and get very excited and living in the present always and not great at planning. Yes, true. What I would say with Ray, I've noticed when we go,

he's loads loud noises, but he also... He's what he needs to, if we go to a house or something, the first thing he does, if it's sort of a new house and there's lots of people, everyone says, where's Ray? And he's normally disappeared upstairs to a little dark room on his own. Oh, that does sound right. Yeah. That does sound right, actually, yeah. My parents' dogs had such a routine where if ever deviated, they would get quite stressed out. They wouldn't sort of freak out and dance around, but they would sort of look at you as if to say,

why are we in this room? It's time to be in the other room. They could just sense that, you know, dogs have this internal clock that's perfectly bang on. Well, I want you to remind us about the dogs you grew up with, but I should start by saying one of the changes that has happened since you came on last time, you've moved. Yes, I've moved.

I've moved from a sort of tower block flat on one side of London to Ealing on the other side of London. Yeah. Become a suburban figure. I love this. And my friend Connie Huck lives near him. We're going to see her afterwards. Yes, yeah.

Oh, God. Are you okay? There's a fly in my eye. It's gone, no. She's trying to get everyone over to this part of the world. Yes, she's a big evangelist for Ealing. I feel you've, I don't know. I feel this was a big move for you.

You've got a proper house as well. The place where I'd lived before was the longest I've lived in any one building in my life, yeah. And I hadn't realized that until we were moving. And I thought, oh, God, this is quite disruptive. which is not great if you're autistic, but I still haven't found any new gym. I just don't have time psychologically. And you haven't got a dog yet, but that's okay? Yes, I would need my life to have more of a tangible routine.

Would you ever get a dog? Oh, yeah. Would you? Yeah, yeah. What dog would you get? Maybe a Westie. They're quite reserved and reasonable creatures, you know. I wouldn't want to get one too big, even though I do live.

in your park. I've just never heard anyone going looking online for dog thinking, I want a reserved and reasonable creature. What kind of doggy do you want, darling? Oh, that's a cute doggy. What's that? That's the same one as James Middleton has. That is a Spaniel? It's a Spaniel for sure, but is it a

cocker or a King Charles? I think it's a cocker. No, it's a cocker, yeah. It's the colour of a cavalier. And when you were growing up in South Africa. Yes. For at least For the first seven years. For the first seven years. You had, you told me last time you had Westies. No, no.

In there we had an Alsatian outside dog and a Maltese poodle inside dog. It was my older sisters. Lady. No. Lady the Poodle. I love the way kids do that. It's so cute. They just kind of...

Just singing. I love it. I love that they just sing make up songs as they walk a lot. It's a nice imagination. Yeah. I love it. You too. So you had an inside dog and an outside dog in South Africa.

And was this in Joburg or Cape Town? Joe Berg. Joe Berg. We were inland, inland people. Is Joeberg a bit more dangerous? Yes, yeah. Joeberg is more dangerous and it's sort of the, it's high desert. It's like sort of Albuquerque or places you see in Texas or something.

It's incredibly high above sea level and very, very flat. So it's the kind of place where it could be 40 degrees in the day in summer, but it's like one degree at night. Like you get in the desert. A lot of thunderstorms and things in summer. And is it everyone lives in gated communities? When I say everyone, obviously. Everyone with money.

Yeah. Yes. Well, we lived in what had been a sort of normal suburb and then kind of became fortified by the late 90s. Talk me through the inside dog and the outside dog. Well, Kara, the Alsatian, was supposed to be a guard dog. but she wasn't very good but she was very nice

she would come for a window visits because she knew she wasn't allowed inside so she would stick her head through the window she would stick her head through the window and receive affection from the various children Kara? Kara yeah I think both dogs were named by my older sister

Did she ever attack any burglars or she failed to attack some burglars did she? Yeah she well they I imagine they they have quite harsh punishment for that South Africa We let her off. We never saw her again.

We let her off. But yeah, we got our car stolen from the outside and a bunch of stuff from the garage, but luckily they didn't try and get in the house. But they got through the gate somehow. Anyway, yeah, we found Kara hiding at the end of the garden because she knew she'd screwed up and also I think they'd given her bloody good shewing.

Did she live outside then? Yes, yeah, yeah. In a dog house, like in an American cartoon. Wow. I never knew that was still a thing. Outside dog, yeah. And the dog inside, I mean it's rather cruel for Kara That she's permanently placed in the position of the Victorian orphan

Looking through the window Look what you could have won, Cara. Yeah, if you weren't so big and had a job. So inside dog was the spoiled princess? Yeah, very much so, lady. Even called lady, yeah. It's a sort of Victorian upstairs, downstairs, novel kind of thing happening. Yeah, that's true, actually.

I think this is appalling. Yeah, well, The thing is, yeah, Kara was a sort of a dog with a job and lady was a sort of toy poodle for my older sister, I think. I mean, yeah, this is like some HG Wells. This is like the time machine with the Eloys and the Moorlocks. She was quite a, I don't remember a lady with particular fondness. I think Maltese poodles have an owner. Well, yes, Maltese poodles are allowed sheets and nice bowls.

than air conditioning. But they're not, the affection wasn't for all in the home, it was just for my older sister, I think. Oh, I see. I don't think I played with lady. I would run around,

me and my youngest sister would run around outside with Kara. And does it mean that growing up in South Africa, are you quite, I suppose, confident with, around animals? Like, you're not frightened.

If you saw a snake suddenly, would you not be as frightened as maybe I would? I wouldn't be happy about it. As a kid, I was terrified. I had a real disgust reflex around flies. Yeah. I just hate flies.

I'm sort of over it now, but as a kid, I remember finding them revolting. I think it was made far too clear to me that they were like, poo eating animals that could land on your food. And that, to me, just seemed like a sentence from hell. Why are we tolerating this? This is so unreasonable. It's a flying piece of shit that could land on my food at any point. I think also the noise would have bothered you as well.

Yeah, not a fan of that. Lots of mosquitoes, obviously. Not a fan of those. I have very delicious blood. Did you go on safaris and things? I'm not a couple and yeah. You can, because in South Africa there's sort of government-owned game reserves and private ones. So if you're, you know, or a goldfinger, you can buy a piece of land and turn it into a game.

reserve with your secret millions. That sounds ethical. Sure, well, that's possible, you know, if there's the land exists and someone sells it to you. But there's also like national parks, like Kruger National Park. So that you can drive through there in a Jeep and look at things as part of it being run by the government. Right. And it'll be a big, long Jeep that can hold, you know, sort of 40 people, like a big,

long sightseeing bus thing. You could drive around on the tarmac roads. I think if you want to go off-road and get really close to them, you probably have to You probably have to go private. I'm not really sure. Well, your dad's a lawyer, isn't he? Yeah. And your mom was...

She had worked with him. Yes. Had she sort of, she was focusing a lot on being a homemaker for you guys, was she? Or was she still working when you were younger? She's always done bits of work here and there. When we moved, you know, she would... Don't chase him, Ray. Don't chase him.

He's not worth it. It's not worth it. There you go. Do you want to give him some of that water? Protect it, actually. I've shown you how Ray's water bottles. So you have to unlock it. Yeah, unlock it.

And then if you put that in front of him, Ray, Ray. No? Yes, he will probably. No. He's recoiling. He's actually recoiling from the water. No water. He just knows his own mind, Pierre.

Yeah, he's very certain. Good for him. So, yeah. My mum was told you why she did like some secretarial stuff for an estate agents for a bit while we were growing up and things. She was a trained, she went to secretarial college and sort of trained typist of a and then she worked as a paralegal. And so, yeah, she would always do bits and pieces, but she was keen on focusing in on, you know, raising the kids and all that.

Well, I have to say, I think she's done a very good job because, again, since this podcast, I had the pleasure of meeting your family. Yes, that's true, actually, because my book came out, and you met the whole crew. And do you know, I was quite overwhelmed. The whole looming crew. I was quite overwhelmed with how lovely they were and are. Yeah. And I think it told me a lot about you.

Meeting someone's family is incredibly revealing. It tells you why they are who they are a lot of the time. It solves a lot of riddles, I think sometimes. Yeah, that's true. And I really just felt this very, I would call it a very warm energy. They're very, they were very funny and warm and positive, just lovely people. And I wondered, I wondered. I don't know, Pierre, because I think sometimes you're someone who I would describe as sort of highly,

you've got a very high native intelligence, and sometimes that can come with its own complexities, you know, in terms of, I suppose, more prone to mood disorders. Weirdness. Yeah, and anxiety. If you're a nerd, you're generally weird. And I wonder, when I met your family, I thought, I wonder if that's partly why he's so well adjusted. Do you know what I mean? Well, I mean, we certainly are a gang of anxious nerds in all sorts of other ways.

I think it's more just about the context as well. I don't think the one thing that my family definitely isn't is a kind of exuberant, you know, family of partying artists kind of thing. We're still pretty, I think by UK standards, we're pretty pre-1960s. Really? In demeanor. What do you mean? Well, I don't know. When I was at uni, I would meet all these people who were from London.

And the idea of being from London to me is still, like, astonishing. I just can't believe the idea of growing up in London. It's not being from Manhattan or something. Yeah, it was like from some sort of future town or something. Like, so from being from like Mars Colony 8 or something. It's just mad to me. And everyone I met who was from London and had a London family and a London, you know, back. ground would they would be very worldly seeming and they were very uninitimidated by sort of

anything really because if you're from London everywhere else is small so you're just going well yeah this dinky little town whereas I was going up in scale from basically the countryside to a to a town that's so interesting I've never even thought about that yeah yeah you're right I do think that comes from living in London that I suppose I've never felt intimidated say walking into any restaurant or something never feel like a bumpkin You might feel, if you grew up in London on a rough council estate and you were poor and stuff, you might feel intimidated by, you know, upwards in the terms of class or money, of course, but you'll never be intimidated by a different town.

Yeah, yeah. You'll never walk around, you'll never walk around Swindon and feel threatened by its looming architecture. You go, this place, this is like a half of one suburb, who cares, you know? But sometimes I would argue we should all feel, I don't know if that's a good thing always. You know, there's a level, because what you're essentially describing is to a degree entitlement. I don't think, I think it's just confidence because you've seen enough. In the similar way that I'm more confident than someone from London in a rural situation,

where we're going camping or something. You know, I'm not afraid of a bull and a field like some evacuee from London. Doesn't know where milk comes from. I'm literally, mentioned bull in a field. And I'm like, imagine some ridiculous. film with Goldie Horn in the 70s. Going, ah! Being rescued by a handsome farmer or something.

So it's all about context, really, but that's what's nice about living in different places, is that you can try and even out your confidence across. I did get a good energy from your family, though. I do get the sense they've given you roots and wings. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm unusual in comedy and that my problem was always with outside the house. Most comedians are comedians because they had the problem inside the house

and they got on really well with everyone outside the house. I had a complete opposite situation. I remember I think Fern said in comedy you're such a... Fern Brady said you're such a weirder in comedy because you really get on with your parents. And I was like, yeah, I am. It's an absolute freak behavior for someone who does this job. But that's interesting, isn't it? Because, oh, look at this.

I'm obsessed with this dog. Who's this customer? This dog. Has hair a bit like Jackie Stallone? Yes. Hello buddy. It's fabulous. Hello buddy.

Hello buddy. Oh, hello buddy. Friends, friends. Yes, he's so sure. Raymond is a little unsure. Yes, it's entertaining the idea. It's so sweet. Hello.

This is a Spaniel. Is it a King Charles? I think it's a King Charles. Is this your dog? No. Oh, I'm so sorry. Sorry. Lovely dog.

Hello. Quite young as well, I think that dog. I think that, Doug. Yeah. I mean, not indecently. It's all right, Ray. It's all about you now again. Oh, darling.

He's a bit of a stand-up comedian, Ray. He doesn't like other people stepping into his light. You didn't have. Some would say it was a prerequisite for becoming a comedian is, where's your damage? Yes. Where is your damage? I think just socializing outside of the home. At home, I was funny.

I wasn't funny at school until I was maybe 16. Why not? I just didn't almost have the ability to say the things I was thinking. And on the occasions where I did say the things I was thinking, they never seemed to really work would go down very well. So I thought it's probably best to say very little, actually. Yeah. So give me, I mean, not a direct example in terms of direct speech,

because that would be an ask, but what sort of thing? So do you think it was slightly to do with, as you've said, and you've written a brilliant book, which we'll touch on again, called Why Can't I Just Enjoy Things, about getting diagnosed later in life with autism. And so obviously as a kid growing up with that, that must have presented you with challenges. Yeah, I think it's mainly like, there's a whole section in the book. Because the book is a guide to autism, sort of explaining it and going through it kind of sign by sign. You're sort of not supposed to say symptom, because that's a bit more of a disease word.

sign by sign. There's a whole section in the book on the insanely scientific way that I learned to do sort of social banter because to me it just didn't make any sense that there was this culture where the ruder you were to someone up to a point the more friendly you were

whereas you reserved politeness and being nice for strangers who you actually didn't like. So you mean the way friends I don't know. Friends ribbing each other. Yeah. Or like my dad would greet his friends in a more 70s way and go,

all right, you're old bastard or something or give them a slightly offended. like he had a German friend he nicknamed the Kaiser. I mean, do you know what I mean? Yes, exactly, that kind of thing. Or like the fact that Gaza's best friend is called Jimmy Five Bellies, which is quite a rude comment on his waist. It is rude.

But as a kid, I would think, you know, if someone tried to reach that level of intimacy, I'm presuming because I don't remember any exact examples, but I know I would have reacted with, well, I thought we were getting on and then they started insulting my parents and my hobbies. Why would they do that? do that. But that's interesting and I think it's more because a lot of people would say and I think this is probably something people misunderstand about autism is they would think oh well you don't get offended or hurt by things as easily as the rest of us. I think um is that not true. Hypersensitivity and hypersensitivity to rejection is a part of it but I think it's more that

when you are dealing with someone who is an adult a very functional adult who's autistic they've been dealing with their rejection sensitivity and suppressing it for probably however many decades by the time you meet them. So you do get to a sort of Zen master level of being able to just shut down any instinctive hey fuck you a reaction to a perceived insult. You can just control it because you've been having to control it

because you'd get in trouble at school for flipping out when someone said something rude about your drawing or whatever. Right. So you start out worse, but you get better because all of the reactions seem justified to you. You can't tell the difference between appropriate and inappropriate outrage. It's all appropriate to you.

The lines are drawn by others, and you just have to accept that it's probably safer to assume all of your outrage is inappropriate, which in itself can cause boundary problems when you're an adult, because you think it's not good to suppress your reflex to defend yourself necessarily. It can attract the wrong kind of people. So to a degree, because you get this sense that there's something, I suppose, not right about you. And obviously, it's not that it's not right. But what I'm saying is from your perspective, something feels other about you.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to fit with everyone else. Yeah. So you feel, and as I say, I stress, you feel there's something off about you. And so... Well, I thought I was fine. Right. But I could tell that other people, it wasn't working. I could tell I was different.

Right. I didn't, I was lucky because my parents would back me up at home. They wouldn't be like, yeah, you are a weird little kid. They would like, yes, I think you're all right and you're normal and they're being weird about it. So what sort of thing would they back you up over? Me liking some weird nerdy autistic thing at the age of like nine that was just not normal to like, trying to talk to someone about physigoths and then, you know, fleeing. They go, yeah, I don't know, that's weird.

They probably just aren't, you know, they're just, they're not interested in history. And I'd be like, that doesn't make any sense. Things like that. Whereas I know autistic people who grew up with parents who aren't as supportive or maybe with parents who aren't autistic, who don't get it, they'd be like, in a different scenario with different parents, I would come home and say so-and-so ran away when I tried to talk about the Visigoths. And, you know, that kid's parents would go,

well, you shouldn't talk to people about those things because they're boring. Right. You could get that reaction from your parent if they're the wrong kind of parent. Yeah. Or a different enough person. person. You know, you could be a kind of nerdy, obsessive, autistic kid with like some kind of illiterate, sort of roust about for a father or mother, and in which case you really are going to develop a sense of shame and there's something wrong with me. Whereas I was perfectly happy

to believe that I was the only sane person on earth and for some reason everyone else was insane. Yeah. Which is still not correct, but it is still not correct. But it is, but it is just not, It's better. It's your environment. Yeah. It's like if you're at a mighty bush gig, it's fine because you all understand it. Do you know what I mean? Whereas if someone else comes into that environment, it's these people painted blue and saying weird things about mangynas or whatever.

It's like, what is going on here? What's, it's, it's, um, what's this name? It's one of the leading, uh, I'm actually going to look it up on my phone so I get it right. You do that a lot. You want to get it right. And I notice... Especially when it's an option. Yeah.

If I didn't have my phone, I'd give up. But, you know, because I have it. But I get why you do that. That's an example, actually. When we started working together with Frank Skinner doing a radio show, which is now a podcast, because just FYI, we were fired from absolute radio. But, you know, we all move on. Life goes on.

Life goes on. Life rolls on. I found that very helpful. Before you work with us, we were told. someone who said, oh, by the way, just so you know, you know, Pierre's autistic. And that's an example of when it's very useful. Because things like I would say something and I would see you typing to look it up. And I now understand that because I think, oh, he needs to have the facts straight

and he needs to check and verify this stuff. Not verify, just to say, I'm interested. Right. Well, that's an important distinction. You're interested. I'm not disbelieving. That's the thing. But if someone says...

And I think Frank, and he'd be very happy about me saying this. When we first, who we worked with lovely Frank Skinner, I think he thought, and it was very comical the way this played out, that every time we said something, you were feeling the need to verify it. Well, they were liars, yeah. Yeah, that we were liars. Yeah, he was obsessed to the idea that I thought he was lying.

But I don't understand the kind of person where, if someone says something extraordinary to you, like let's say, oh, do you know that they found something that cures asthma, and it's acorns, actually. You wouldn't go, oh, and then keep eating your lasagna. Like, you'd go, fucking hell, and you'd look it up, because that's interesting. But that doesn't mean you don't believe them. You would look it up.

You're fascinated immediately. But not everyone would, Pierre. But those people, I think, are terrifying to just hear something that's like life-changingly interesting and go, hmm, and just go back to your belly button or whatever you're looking at. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. But this is because most people are governed by the social contract. Yes. And so wanting to adhere to those rules would override any curiosity. And they think, oh, I better not do that.

Well, I would, if someone said that to me, actually, the reality would be, I would say, well, how? What do you mean? And then if they can explain it to me, fine, and I'll look it up later. But if they go, I don't know, I just overheard it. Or, you know, they can't give me what I want there. They're just saying this extraordinary thing and leaving it hanging. I've got to see it. Do you think?

Also, on the radio, sometimes it was cultural references that I needed context for. Yeah. Because, yeah, foreign. And I think because I seem very British in some ways, or there's lots of people who are British but born abroad, but they have British parents. People go, oh, I'm sure your parents told you about live aid or top of the pop. So it's like, no, no, my parents are South African as well. Well, also, because we should say, you relocated to the Isle of Man. Yes.

And that's where you sort of grew up. Yes, yeah, until you. You had, I suppose some people would say your background, your upbringing, and I hope you forgive me for saying this, but was quite privileged or posh. Yeah, it was upper middle class. I don't think anyone who's actually posh listening to this would like to describe large sections of the Isle of Man as posh. The standards are different in the southeast, I learned. Really? Oh yeah.

It's posh up north. It's not posh down south. I only know one other person who lives there, which is Michelle Mohn. Oh yes. the bra criminal. That's a nice neighbour. The bra criminal. Yeah. Not a beloved figure locally. No. There won't be any statues of hers where the boobs get rubbed down. No, where the enormous bra stuffed with cash gets rubbed down. I remember Frank, our colleague, saying...

You know, I'll give you, I'll say rural posh. Let's go for that. A rural upper middle class. I remember Frank's care saying when he went to the Isle of... man to do a gig and he said, you know, he said, I was flying over it and I suddenly saw this school that looked like Hogwarts and it went on for miles with these Gothic turrets and I thought, I bet that's why Pierre went to school and it was. Well, the thing that Frank was obsessed was playing fields and I think people from London forget that land is not expensive outside of London. But nevertheless, you went to quite a traditional post school. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And did you do army training? Yeah, I loved Cadet.

Yes, yeah. Did you? I loved it. It was great. I've still got some of the army training team. I've still my friends on Facebook. See their updates? I can see that that would appeal to your... I thought I would join the army.

To your nature? Yeah. Well, I, I, you know... Do you like the structure of it? I like the structure of it. In hindsight, there's a lot of appeal to the autistic person. Why? Well, everyone knows who's in charge and there's literally,

You literally have your rank on your hat, like on your arm. So you can see, well, they're above you and I'm above them. So I, okay. And there's no nuance because there's no time for nuance. You can't waste time with nuance. No, people die. In Afghanistan or whatever. Yeah, exactly.

My grandfather was at Dunkirk and then fought his way up through Italy and was, you know, won a big medal and all this. And my great-grandfather was at the Somme. And, yeah, I was just sort of very aware of military thing. I'm so interested in it. I loved it, yeah. Military stuff. I liked the shooting and the marching around on the hills, and you'd learn sort of how to read a map and first aid and reintering.

It's quite brave to admit I like the shooting. In the UK it is. Reverence all wet about it. A gun's a great fun, you know. I don't think you should have fun in your house necessarily. No. But they are very fun. It's all gone a bit with my cold dead hands.

The cold dead hands, yeah. It's interesting, I went on a stag do to parlors. I should say child, we don't know these days. A child has come over holding a stick. It's a pretty decent one. Yeah, he's got a big stick and Spider-Man Crocs. Yeah, it's quite sort of Gandalf proportion to him. Hmm.

That's a cute dog. Oh, there you go. What's that doggy? Is it a Yorkshire? Yorkie, so lovely. Very barky. Yeah. Very barky.

What's the name? Of him? Yeah. Bluey. Bluey! Oh, that's like the Australian series. The cartoon, yeah. Did you come up with Blue? Bluey's doing a very high wee.

Yeah. Bluey, you're so sweet and you're the most beautifully groomed dog I think I've ever seen. Yeah, good mustache. What's that? Oh wow, okay. But I think they just grow out like that. Yeah, but they did, yeah. Bluey! Oh, Bluey, you're coming to say hello.

Very friendly, aren't you? You're so lovely. I know, no. Yeah, it's common. Bluey has a problem with men. I'm a bit like Bluey. Yes, yeah. It's quite common.

Bluey? Bluey, I'm calling you an ally. Lovely to meet you. Bye, bye, Bluey. We had guns in the house in South Africa, so I think maybe I was just... Did you ever shoot a gun when you were young? Yes.

How young? under 18. You tell me. Oh yeah. How old were you when you first shot a gun? First shot a gun. Do you count air rifles? There's no explosion in an air rifle that just shoots it with air. Okay. So like seven then if an air rifle. How old when you shot an actual gun? 11 or 12 maybe, something like that. That's quite young for it to shoot. Yeah, well I did fire-arm safety training by the time I was 14 and by the time I was 15 and 16 I was teaching it to other 14 and 13 year olds. So you'd be very handy. wouldn't you?

In a crisis situation. It depends. I think in the UK it's probably less likely for there to be any crisis that have lost guns because there aren't any. The one thing that does interest me is obviously you ended up a comedian and a very funny one.

And I wonder, that is an interesting thing that you considered going into the army. There are plenty of comedians who are like, oh, I considered going into advertising. I considered... Yes, yeah. I tried acting. Yeah, that's quite...

unusual and I wonder was it that your I suppose your funny bones you know you hadn't recognised them yeah they weren't really a thing at the point why not I didn't really say anything that I thought was funny out loud very often why just they never worked the jokes didn't work they started working when I was 15 or 16 they were maybe just too nerdy or sort of old-fashioned wordplay based and things I love comedy but I remember it was only when I was 15 or 16 that my other friends started to like the comedy I liked and had like the years. I was introducing them saying, well, what about this? And they'd watch it and go,

this is amazing. And I was like, you say it's amazing now, but you thought it was lame nerd shit when we were 12. Yes, you were the only person who was impressed by some of the weird old comics my parents used to know. No one else, like I tell, Michael Bentine came over. You get Michael Benton. From the Goons. who was in, many people may not be aware of the goons, but yeah, Pierre was utterly obsessed by them. Even I wasn't interested in them and they came round to our house. 1950s radio company. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, not very cool. It's interesting that, yeah, I went on a staggyz to Poland with my brother-in-law. We went to a shooting range as part of the whole staggoo thing. And I fired first because I was the only one there who was willing to volunteer to do it first. I think most people they hadn't ever touched the gun. and after I fired it once, I just don't think that some of the guys there were expecting the kick and the volume. Do they get frightened?

Let's say there were 20 of us. I don't think it was exactly 20, but just for the stats, let's say 20. Of the 20 of us, like three or four people refused to even have a go on one. Really? They were just like, no way. They just couldn't do it.

And I thought that was mad. I didn't understand that at all. I was really surprised. Really? Yeah, I was really, really surprised by it. I would be like then. You'd have a go on one. I think you'd do it.

Do you think I've got it in me? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it's what you're used to. Yeah, I suppose so. I was happy, though, to strip and clean a simple rifle, but I was not happy to touch seaweed with my foot. Understandable, fair enough.

You know. And so the Army's loss was the entertainment world's game. Yeah. And... Yeah, well, we'll see. Why do you say that? Well, we'll see, you know. We'll see if it's the entertainment world's gain.

The career is ongoing. I think it has been already. And at Cambridge, I feel like, I wonder if that was where you really, you know, because you were studying languages. Well, yeah, it was sort of. Anglo-Saxon-Norsin-Celtic studies. I did, yeah. And producer's nodding for some reason.

He likes that. He thinks it's good stuff. He's right. I did the history and archaeology side a bit more. Did you find your people there a bit? A little bit, mainly through the uni comedy stuff. Were you seen as quite eligible at university? It's as handsome and clever. I might have been seen like that. I don't think I was received like that. Well, it's kind of the same thing though, isn't it? I don't know. I think I would, especially at you and I had trouble figuring out that if someone is sending you signals, if you're a man, the signals they send you are, here's your signal to come and start this whole process off.

Whereas from my point of view, come and talk to me. I just want a moment's silence for this whole process, which is how here is referring to falling in love. No, no, no, I'm not necessarily even falling in love, just even flirting or getting off with each other in a nightclub. apologies for suggesting love might have been involved in the transaction. In the end, maybe. Well, you're supposed to be the one doing it, but I can't see the signal that says start it. Right. And even if people were starting it, I'd just say, well, they're just coming out to me and talking to me in a friendly way.

Like, I just couldn't pick up on it. So you may well be right, but I honestly would have no idea unless it was really, really obvious. Unless it was really, really obvious, it would have come completely over my head for years. And did. One thing you've talked about, and I think you touched on this in your book about autism, which I know so many people have found so useful, and you've had numerous people reaching out to you saying they've read it. Very nice response to it.

Yeah, it's been lovely there. And have you had any, because I know when I wrote my book, which was about grief, and there were certain people that would reach out to me, and it would sort of really stay with me that they've got in touch with it. me and there was a guy who was a he was ex-s-s-as and he said i've not cried in 25 years because we don't do that in my family we're not i was taught that you should never cry or say your feelings he said i've had to pull over on the fucking motorway to cry and it's all you're full which was and i'm not saying that to say oh my book was so moving i'm not being self-congratulatory

there i'm actually think it was so powerful of him the fact that's the fact that you're not saying that's that he reached out to some random middle-aged woman with a dog. To bother typing it out, it's such a big deal. And I wonder, was there any correspondence you received after writing your book and talking really openly about, you know, autism that really stayed in your mind? Loads, yeah. I mean, I would say, maybe if you averaged it out, I get a message every day or two days. from people. A guy said,

I try and slightly fiddle the details, but a guy got in touch who one of his children was autistic. And he had three or four kids, but one of them was autistic, diagnosed, and him and his wife and all the kids and the family had all

got their own copy of the book and had all read it together as like a family project to help the autistic kid and understand. The guy wrote me a letter, the actual physical letter, about how useful it was. Yeah, nice messages from people who are saying, you know, things like, oh, this is the first thing I've read that is like the description of the inside of my head. Loads of that, yeah, it all sticks around.

I have a folder of it on my phone. I take screenshots. So I have a screenshot folder of it so I can... Do you think I have friends who have kids who've been diagnosed with autism I wonder, what do you think? Just in your experience, I appreciate every case is different. Yes, yeah. But what did you find most challenging as a kid

and do you wish your contemporaries and maybe some adults, not your parents in your case, but you wish your contemporaries and some adults would have understood? My parents were relatively, like I say, at home, I was sort of understood. like or yeah that's what I mean but outside of the home. Outside of it just socializing really but the thing is you can't because what you wish you wish all the other nine-year-olds like 1950s radio comedy that's not going to happen so I guess you're wishing to meet another autistic nine-year-old who also loves radio

so does that mean though when you say socializing what you mean is you found it difficult to feel accepted yes yeah well because your interests are by by by vote of the majority weird and boring. You know, the things you like are weird and boring and talking about them will be an incredible social burden. So you can't talk about anything you're interested in, but you're not interested in anything there in either. It's not like, oh, I loved popular music and 1950s radio comedy. I like 1950s radio comedy and I hated all the music that you were supposed to like. Was it also, though, as well as the interests, was it also to do a little bit with not being able to read cues like other people? Oh, definitely. But I, but it, but

Yeah, it was the thing of I didn't even know I was not reading cues. So because I didn't have the self-awareness of, oh, I might be getting this wrong, because I had no reason to think I was getting it wrong. Why would I doubt my own perceptions? You know. But you're never rude. You've never hurt my feelings.

Well, good. I'm glad to hear that. But equally, if you'd said, oh, there's only two times that you've been really rude, I wouldn't even know what they were, but I would go, oh, okay, two. I failed the thing twice. That's not a bad ratio for how long we've known each other. Really? Yeah, yeah.

It would surprise me, but it's all a surprise if you don't know what's going on. When did you loss cry, Pierre? Oh, when did I last cry? I don't remember actual crying, not tears in the, like tearing up a little. Is that the... I love that you need to know that. Yeah, I wouldn't say that that's tearing up, as opposed to, like, you know, weeping.

I'm comfortable with tearing up. Tearing up. Maybe sort of hanging out with my nephews. You sort of, you know, kids can say quite sweet or funny things. Maybe then. Okay. What about properly cry? I don't know, really.

Probably when my friend died. When was that? When was that? two years ago yeah I think it was two years ago I'd have to check my phone it's difficult to tell after a while isn't it I'm so sorry Pierre that

was it an old friend of yours he's my director I'd embrace yeah he was not necessarily an old friend but we'd met each other I think well we'd work together and hung out sort of here and there since 2017 early 2017

yeah that was probably when I think, yeah. It's not, it's part of the unreactiveness, maybe. But this is what I meant before when I said, it sounds like it might be good to get a sort of Zen master level ability to repress your reactions to things, but you're also repressing your reactions to nice things because you are repressing all of it

because you can't tell when it's good or bad or wrong or right. So the safest thing is to across the board just not react until you have figured out the situation. socially. Right. So as a kid what you do is the easiest thing is to suppress it all. And then if you're not autistic you might think well why don't you just suppress the things that aren't appropriate. You say well I can't tell what they are. That's the whole problem. So it's it's very much a let's shut everything down and then gradually release the correct bits once we are certain what they are because the

social downside of being wrong is you know a detention or a having not being friends with that other kid anymore or whatever it is when you're young. So I think it's the thing a lot of autistic people learn if they learn to quote unquote function in the sense of being able to walk around and seem normal and have a job or whatever we think functioning is. But is it functioning to suppress all of your reactions to things? No, it's not good for you. But it fits the social definition of functioning that the majority decides. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was fortunate in the sense that, yeah, externally there were those issues.

But at home, I could say to my parents, it's disgusting to me when food touches other food. And I hate wearing these clothes because they make me feel like I'm suffocating. They'd go, yeah, that makes sense. That's reasonable enough. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday. So whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.