Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Reverend Kate Bottley (Part Two)

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Emily and Raymond are in the beautiful town of Retford with Reverend Kate Bottley and her absolutely adorable puppy Tony! Kate tells us all about the experience of being on Gogglebox - the unexpected costs involved in being a part of the show and why she eventually made the decision to leave.While we walked through the beautiful graveyard in Retford, Kate told us about how she feels about funerals - and what the emotional parts of being a reverend have taught her about life. And of course - we had to ask Kate if she thinks dogs get to heaven…. Follow @revkatebottley on Instagram You can buy your copy of Kate’s book Have A Little Faith: Life lessons on love, death and how lasagne always helps - here!You can listen to Kate on Good Morning Sunday - on BBC Radio 2 every Sunday from 6am! Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Part 2 of Walking the Dog with the Reverend Kate Botley and her adorable dog Tony. Do go back and listen to Part 1 if you haven't already and do by the way check out Kate's Brilliant Radio 2 show Good Morning Sunday. I'd also love it if you gave us a like and a follow so you can catch us every week. Here's Kate and Tony and Ray Ray Ray. Well you were on Gogglebox. Yeah, I was. With your husband Graham. Lovely Graham.

We love Graham. And they'd initially suggested you do it with a mate in a sort of vicarious. They wanted a hole. But you see, even when I was on with Graham, we used to get that hole, oh, you never let your husband speak. You never let your husband speak. It's just like, wow, wow.

Be careful there, your misogynist showing. Of course, if you're a confident woman married to a quieter man, he must be hemp-pecked and he must be bossed about. It's not that he's just naturally quieter. Of course, you know, in any relationship, there's someone that is more outgoing or things of leading. And also, you've got cameras on you, and you talk and perform for a living.

Of course you're going to be more vocal in that situation, you know, in the sense that if Jonathan rostered it with his family, he'd be more vocal because he's used to performing to the camera all the time. How did you find, looking back on it, the Gogglebox experience, and was there anything you wish you'd known beforehand or anything you'd have done differently? I wish I'd known how much it took over our life for two and a half years having reality. It's reality TV.

It's by its nature, it's consensual exploitation. So they're coming to your homes as reality TV. They're capturing, you know, filming in your home. It's quite intrusive, really. But, you know, we consented to that intrusion. But we didn't fully know just how, you know, my kids spent two and a half years sat in their bedrooms every Tuesday and Thursday night

or whatever nights they came to film. You know, my kids didn't have friends around for a lot. Didn't have help with their homework. You know, we, things like that. And we got paid very little. Do they not pay well? Well, they paid, but I cooked two nights a week for the crew. So, yeah.

Do you think other people did that? No, I don't. They were, I'm married to a man who weren't eat takeaways and I don't want to be filmed eating on camera. So I was like, no, I'll cook. So, you know, there was casseroles and chilies. And, you know, so I spent all the money we got from it, went on the electricity, the internet connection that they were using.

And the food and being hospitable to six people in my home. two nights a week. It's vicarage as well. I should be hospitable. We should be sharing our homes with people and eating food together and stuff so you know it was a good two and a half years but we couldn't have done any more with it I don't think it got to the point where we were just a bit overwhelmed. Yeah was that why you walked away Kate yeah yeah also that there was quite tight there's quite tight exclusivity and rightly so because if you're filming ordinary people sat on there to over watching TV you're You can't then have those people on the TV.

It sort of breaks their fourth wall too much, doesn't it? So if you're doing something like, would I like you, which you've been on and you were brilliant. I was offered stuff like that and wasn't able to do it because Gogglebox wouldn't let you do it. I didn't know that. That's fascinating. I see that because you cannot shift from audience to participants. That's the whole joy of the show, right? That's the whole joy of the show, right?

As the viewer, you side with the people on the sofa because they're you. But the minute they start being on the TV, it's done, right? Next week you're all watching yourself on the telly. I see that. There was stuff coming in that I wanted to have a go at, which I just wasn't able contractually to do. And it so happened that it came around the time Ruby was doing a GCSE. So the excuse we gave was we're going to take some time away while she does her exams.

But since then, what Gogglebox did do was really sort of launch you into public consciousness, I suppose, in some ways. Yeah, absolutely. People started recognising you, presumably. Yeah. You were used to that in your local community. You've always been a celebrity. You're always a celebrity if you're a vicar. I was going to say. You can never shout at your kids in the co-op.

You can never fall out of a taxi drunk outside the pub. It can never happen because you were spotted immediately. Does it affect how you behave? Yeah, of course. Of course it does. But I have friends that I can hang out with and have places I can go where I can fall out of a taxi after too many vodka shots and that's fine and they'll look after me. But I've never been able. And so when someone says, oh, what's it like being famous?

I think that's a weird word anyway. Recognizable probably. Certainly Zed list, but, you know, it, yeah, I've always been recognised. I've always been recognised. You did my granny's funeral. In fact, talking to which, we're just going past some people I've buried. It's always weird when you come down here because we're just walking past a cemetery section, the most recent burials of the graveyard.

And I always stand here and go, yep, I looked after that one. I looked after that one. Oh, and they're one of mine. So I sometimes come down and grandma say to me, where are you going? I go, I'm going to see some friends. Just walk past these people that are buried. Sometimes it's quite sweet. Particularly when people go before their time and it's a life interrupted

or it's under tragic circumstances, that must be pretty tough. That must stay with you. Yeah. I mean, I've sort of made friends with death, really. As my dad always says, we're all terminal. There's only one way out of this one. So there's no point getting upset too much about it. I don't want to be in pain.

I don't want to suffer, obviously. But where they are, we too shall be. That's how it goes. And you just try and do as good a job as you can for people, really. And it's a privilege. It's an honour. And when there are those tragic ones, I'm just blowing my voice because they're a gentleman's like.

Yeah, we've just seen a gentleman. Come to pay his respects. You know, when you do look after people, you just do the best job you can really for them. And it's an honour. And when they are those lives interrupted, those ones do, there are some funerals you do as a vicar, and I'll be honest, you don't, you won't remember them. You did them on a Tuesday afternoon at 2 o'clock.

It was a very straightforward service. You did it. The family will come up to you three years' time in the Marysons and go, oh, thanks. And you do not remember them. That sounds awful, but you just don't. Yeah, I understand. You do so many, you see. But they'll remember you forever.

I mean, you never make them feel like you don't remember them, obviously. But then there are some that will stay with you. And yes, of course, the tragic ones and the babies are the ones that hang around in your head a long time. But there are also the ones that are just the 95-year-old that raised six kids. The ones that are the worst ones for me. And people often talk about, like, young ones or people are taking their own lives, those kind of ones. And they are tough. But the worst ones are the ones that are yourself.

The 50-year-old woman with two kids, those are the worst ones. Because it's you. I'm burying myself. And for a while after my mum died, I buried my mum every week. So it seemed that every funeral I did, you have another little dig? It seemed that every funeral that I did, water, there you go. Just turning the tap on for him. It's a tap that they used for the flowers, but it's also great for thirsty puppies.

Do you want some, Ray? I don't think you'll be able to have it quite like Tony can, Ray. Look at Ray's too frightened of it. Yeah, and so for a while after my mum died, every week I seem to bury a 75. year old woman because that's what my mum was so and I did I needed to get after my mum's through and I needed to get right back on horse and do as many funerals I could possibly do just get it just get it through get it done you know get that get as many done as you can so that it just stops stops and sometimes it's funny that person I

remember when my sister died and she had two young kids oh my God Tony what he Tony he's lifting the turf up he's having to go at this come here Look, I'll lift it for you. You can have a little look. There'll be bugs and also. Oh, look at the excitingness of that. Are you interested? Can you see?

There's nothing under there, Tony. No, don't eat the grass, Tony. Yeah, just, you know, disgusting dog-like behaviour, isn't it? Come on. I can remember, Kate, that when my sister died, and it was, you know, it was one of those sad situations where she had a one-year-old and a 10-year-old. What was her name?

Rachel. Ah. And she... He's the Lamb of God. What's that? Rachel means lamb of. God, it means sheep. Female sheep. And my parents died not long after.

So it was one, you know, you've been, you've heard situations like that. It was a kind of multiple loss. You know, I used to call it the Game of Thrones episode where they kill all the characters off in one go. But you've come across that. But what was interesting to me is I loved it because we used, we sort of, you know, grew up in Highgate and that was art manners.

St. Michael's Church, which is beautiful. And it's, you know, very, it's coleridge is buried there. It's very beautiful. And the vicar there, who was lovely, he did this thing which I loved. He kind of risked it and made a joke. And he said, by the time we got to the third funeral, he said, I keep telling Emily, we must stop meeting like this.

And do you know what was interesting? I loved that. I couldn't stop laughing. It broke the tension. Some of my friends said, I didn't know whether it was okay to laugh. and then I saw you laughing. Yeah.

But part of what we do as clergy is we give, we give people a framework for their bereavement and their grief. So we give, we're permission given. Our job is, our job is to stand at that front and go, look, we can navigate this for you, right? We can take you on this journey for a bit and we can look after this for you. So that's quite sweet and romanticism. That's so, can you want to say?

We've just seen you. A little couple going past. Isn't that lovely? He's riding the bike and she's sat on the front. It looks like something from like, raindrops keep falling on my head. All the way through the cemetery. Even in the midst of death, there is life.

That's what that is, isn't it? Beautiful. So nice. How sweet. Just younger and in love. Well, you know what? It's so interesting how you preside over all those big moments in people's lives. All those things, which quite honestly are the things that you end up caring about the most.

Yeah. When you're on your death bed. Yeah, yeah. Those are really the only thing that matters. I love it. I love what I get to do. And I love that I get to take something. And, you know, and I'll be honest, part of it is because of that attention-seeking thing in me,

is that I do like, I do like a rescue. And so here's people with their bereavement and their grief, and their loved ones have died. And I can be really helpful in that. I can be really useful. I can take something that they don't know how to navigate, and I can go, I know what to do here. Let me do it, because I know what I'm doing. And I can take it. And so I can go, here's a framework.

I'm going to give you permission to laugh. I'm going to give you permission by making a joke. I'm going to give you permission to cry by. by saying the right words to you. It's just, it's so, being the kind of like, you know, sort of like the stage manager or the director in it all, and going, okay, well, we'll just, and you weave it together.

It's like a tapestry. They give you all these little snippets of knowledge, all these little phrases or these little stories, and your job as the priest is to just weave it all together. It's brilliant. It's like making an amazing tapestry or a beautiful recipe cake or, you know, I get great.

enjoy is the wrong word for a funeral but we do love what we do talk to any cleric and they love funerals really yeah they're great love a good funeral you wrote a brilliant book called thank you it's called have a little faith yeah that's right and I really loved it thank you I just it was one of those books that I love the way you write but you're also you're so smart and it's very thought-provoking in so many ways like so many interesting things you said like the fact that everyone comes up to you and prefaces, particularly when you have your dog colour on, preface is something with

I'm not religious, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not religious. Like it's the worst thing you could be. That always makes me laugh. I'm not religious. Don't think I'm religious. And then they say something that sounds quite religious.

I do like to light a candle when I go into a church. Do you want cheese? Are you interested? No. He loves cheese normally. Kate, you just broke off some cheese and I'm going to be honest. I thought you were going to give it to me. No.

She's such a, she's such a mom looking after. I could have brought you. You didn't want your cheese all right, right? It's quite a spicy manchego. But... It's been wrapped in chorizo. Tony. Yeah, Babes.

Yes, that's interesting, isn't it, that people are sort of wanting to distance themselves from that? Yes, that's because of all the baggage that comes with religion and belief. Right. And I suppose that's one of the things that it'd be nice to cut through from time to time. Because people still do need it. Even if they don't think they need, even if they're not like, not really sure about the whole Jesus coming back to life thing or virgin births or, you know, all that sort. Not lady's bottom, darling. Tony, not ladies bottoms. He does like, he does like a nose in it.

He likes a lady's gusset. He likes a gusset, that lad. Well, we all know Tony's like that. Dirty panty sniffer. You are. Perverts. You're filthy panty sniff. You're a dirty perverse.

Can I just say? I just want to, in case. my producer uses that as a trailer. Katie's talking to her dog. I'm talking about my dog. I'm talking about my dog. It's a dirty panty siffer. Yeah, it's interesting that.

And also, you know, you say that the Bible is daunting to people because they don't treat it like a sort of, you know, Da Vinci Code or whatever. You don't pick it up and read it in one go. There are little lessons that you can learn. You can dip in and out of it. And there's something you said. I don't know.

But you know little things strike you? And I've been thinking about this a lot. You tell a story. I don't even know this, Kate, but there's something, I think this isn't the Bible, is it? Where Jesus said something about if you go to someone's house and you're not made to feel welcome. Shake the dust off your feet and leave.

Yeah, and I was thought... It's like pointing two fingers up. But I was... But I was... But you know what? Feet are dirty. Feet are really intimate, you see. That's why it was so shocking when the woman wiped her hair on Jesus' feet

Because feet are associated with... I'm keen. Well, they're also associated with genitalia. They're very intimate. So they have an association with, like, the most intimate parts of ourselves. So, you know, it's like... If you shake the dust off your feet and leave, it's like... It's like dropping your trousers, I've shown you're asked to somebody.

You know, it has that kind of connotation. But then that's interesting. And I suppose what struck me is I love that because it's like, oh, Jesus was into boundaries. I didn't know that. I thought Jesus was like... Oh, the meek and mild thing. Oh, Jesus, can... What would Jesus do?

Well, whenever people say what would Jesus do, remember that he made a whip of cords and beat up the money lenders and turned tables over and shouted and screamed in the temple. You know, so there's a story of a Jesus going into the temple and he sees all these money lenders, right? And they're all in the temple and they're all, you know, trading and stuff. And he gets really cross about it. And what I love about that story is it says he made a whip of cords. Now that takes time. Yeah.

That takes time. So he went away. We're going to go that way. He went away. Are we walking towards yours? We can walk you home? I'm going to walk this way and then we'll walk back to the park. Lovely.

And they'll walk back into town. So it's just 30 seconds. It's on this main road. It's on this main road. Main road through Redford. And so that's interesting. So he was still crossed 20 minutes later, is my point. Yeah.

He was still cross about it 20 minutes later. So don't have it that, you know, you let people get away with stuff. You never did. You know, people to account left right and center. I saw a grass snake here the other day. It was very excited. So I would just walk along the main road. Let's walk in single file.

single file pick up the pace get past this road quickly so that we don't not using this noise for very long i like it when you said pick up the pace i thought i can see kate very much in charge and i like that in a woman i don't mind being in charge i quite like being in charge is one of my natural i don't i don't you know this whole like when you see reality tv shows and they're on these Desert Island things and they're like, no, we're going to like have collaborative leadership. Shut up. Somebody needs to be in charge. I don't care who it is.

Food. But someone needs to make decisions. I mean, you want to make decisions with the approval of the rest of the people that are with you. If you can't always. Sometimes you've just got to make decisions and get things moving. I tell you what, it's chocolate box pretty some of these. Yeah, some of it is really lovely. Yeah.

What we especially like is I've got, we've got an autistic. It was 21. And what's great about where we live is that he can get the train to London. You can get the train to Sheffield. He can walk into town. There's lots of things in walking distance. You know, and the town really knows him. So it's a really safe.

I mean, it's not an ever such exciting place to live. It's got no nighttime economy. Everything closes at 9. Oh, do you know, I like that, though. You're selling it. You're being the estate agent here. Anywhere open pause 10, forget it. Straight over.

Yeah. Straight over. Straight over. Yay! Go on. Go on. Come on, Charlie. Let's see a gay one.

Good boy. Come on. Get those wiggles out. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. You're so nice, aren't you?

Kay. Oh my goodness. This dog is ridiculous. What do you think of Ray? I would die for you, Ray. I would die for Ray. Look at Ray. This dog is just, oh my goodness.

when you've got a brand new puppy that is just loopy to have a dog that just sits here like a sort of glorified fur hat oh rea you're so dignified i don't i feel like i'm your servant and that that feels entirely proper okay can i be honest Tony looks I wouldn't say he was troubled but he's a little bit jellybag He's a five month old puppy He's absolute We affectionately call him the knob dog Because he's an idiot

But we love him to bits But he's never going to be a ray As they let's face facts I just like you a lot Is Ray welcome in the House of Our Lord? Listen I'm not going to I don't want to go to heaven If dogs aren't allowed in

I'm not going That's why I'm used the same whistle for all the dogs I've ever had because when I get there I'm going to do the whistle and I have this vision of the dogs running towards me, all the dogs and I just stand there and they just all

sort of jump on me. Yeah, I'm not going to have any if dogs don't get in. I'll sneak you in under my coat anyway, okay? You can get in with me. If you get there first, which you probably will, tell them I sent you. All right, you're getting. You're very friendly with the Rev Richard Cole. I am. Who's been on this podcast

himself. What a lovely man he is. He is a nice man. And he once said something really lovely to you. He sounds like just the kind of friend you need because you'd had a bit of abuse from someone in a Tesco car park. I've been called a whore of Babylon in a Tesco car park, which told me two things.

Firstly, the person read their Bible because they knew what a whore of Babylon was, which is one of the worst insults anyone can give to someone. And the other thing it told me was that they probably watched telly and they were easily offended by me. Yeah, they were very cross with me for some reason. He's seeing a bird now. That's not going to end well. There we go.

Did you catch it? Nah. You're never going to catch them. They can fly. You don't know that yet. Good boy. Good checking in. Good checking in, good boy.

Go on. And Richard said to me, I phoned him in tears in this Tesco car park saying someone call me the whore of Babylon and he said oh darling do get yourself to waitress immediately which was really funny you need a friend like that Kate

yeah he'd pee and and David God rest him he's his husband who died yes I met David yeah David was lovely they sort of picked me up after a goggle box and and sort of looked after me

really there's telly vickers who get shouted at the Televicker Club We've just stopped It's really lovely here There's a little And you know what's rather lovely Kate Tony is just lying down respectfully

And have you noticed what it's next to? It's next to a memorial stone For one of the parkkeepers He used to look after the parkkeeper And this gentleman was called Tony It was called Tony And I think there's something rather lovely about that The Circle of Life and all that

Is that, are you named after? Is that why you sat down? Yeah it's quite an old It's quite an old-fashioned townies right. I've had it still has park keepers in the park who like, you know, plant the flowers and do the litter picking and... Yeah.

Although the parkkeepers sometimes in the winter, if someone's thrown a shopping trolley in the river or a traffic cone, they come and get me because I'll go in the river and get it and they won't. Because I like the cold water, so I'll go and get in the river and get the stuff out for them. And you see, I wonder if the role of the vicar has changed because presumably, you know,

now that there's fewer resources in terms of policing and all that sort of stuff. Do you feel that you get called upon more? Well, I'm not a parish priest anymore, so I'm like a supply vicar these days. What does that mean then? So that means that I don't have a church my own. And the church doesn't pay me anymore. I don't live in a vicarage at my own house.

Because I work full-time in TV and radio and writing. So that's where I've pitched my tent. But I still do weddings, christening, and fun. Like a supply teacher, I'm like a supply vicar. Got it. So you're like a freelance vicar? Yeah, like a freelance vicar. So if I wanted to get married, I could call you still.

If the vicar of the church where you were getting married would be happy for me to do it. Or if they were on holiday or they were poorly or the church didn't have a vicar at that point. You know, I sort of cover. And the churches I helped look after, there's one over that way, one over that way, the ones that I help look after with the priest there who says, Kate, I've got a funeral next week, can you do it for me? You know, that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean, vicars have always had really diverse jobs.

I think the idea, I mean, come on, Marie. Great, Ray. He's so slow. Look how fast you are, Tony. You're such a fast boy, aren't you? Yes, I love you. I do love you, so dear. I love you.

Such a crazy puppy. But yeah, so Vickers have always had diverse jobs. I think it's just that cultural memory has as sat in churches lighting candles, playing organs. You know, whenever you watch the murder mysteries, they always just walk into churches and the Vickers practice in the organ. No, because they've always run community housing projects.

They've always run food banks. They've always been people who help out in the schools. They've always been, you know, they've always done that sort of stuff. They've always, you know. So is it like being an MP, like an MP who has a constituency? Because you can still, it's like you're still in politics. You're still doing that job, but you don't have an active constituency. Yeah, it's a bit like that.

So I, you know, and because I've got a recognisable face, because people and of course once you've done a funeral for a family then they come back to your time and again and go well you did my granny's and we feel safe with you so can you come and do grandad's or can you come and do the wedding or can you come and do now he's gone out of oh there is there is this way good boy good boy you're getting better you're getting better let's just see if you can stay wait wait nope yep on imagining you seem sort of unsurprisingly well adjusted that's that's incredibly kind I'm as much messed up as anybody else we're all messed up right we're all just trying to get out of this we're all just trying to you know somebody to say nice things about us one day in a when we're in a box that's that's what we're aiming for eh when we're hopefully very old what do you think is your particular form of messed up um I've got a lot stuff around body image I've got a chip on my shoulder about my background about working class and about now being in a place where

you know I sometimes feel tolerated and I've got a bit of a thing about being a show off and that you know perhaps and those and when people throw throw those slings and arrows at you know of um of saying or you know when you get I get abuse on social media you can't say don't because of course it does I'm just better at I'm just I'm just better at not not listening to it in quite the same way that I used to. I don't agonise over every little criticism anymore and you will always be not someone's cup of tea but they're probably not your cup of tea either. I want I want to be liked of course I do don't we all want to be liked I'd rather I'd rather people think I was great and I labour under the

misapprehension that everyone thinks I'm great and then just occasionally someone told you that they don't think you're great and that comes as a bit of a blow even if it is a random stretch on the internet. Well also, you actually have people saying it to your face sometimes. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, you had the woman at a gallery come up to you once. Oh, she just, that's another one. That's one of the ones that keeps you working.

Yeah, she came up to me and just went, you that vicar of the telly and I was ready for her to go, and I went, and I was go, yes, I'm Kate. And then we get into the whole, you know, thing and she lasts for her footer and that's how it goes usually. I knew, I know what they like. And I went, she went, are you that vicarate? And I went, yes, can I just tell you?

I think you're absolutely dreadful. And I was just like, what? And she was, yeah, she just went, what an embarrassment you must be to your family and to your congregations? Don't you think it would be better if you just didn't engage with any of the stuff you engage with?

I was like, oh wow, what do you say to that? Well, you didn't. Well, initially you went and had a cry in the toilet. I went and cried in the toilets. And then went and found her and went, I don't know what made you think you could say that to me, but it's really unkind. And she said, well, I just thought you needed to hear it.

It's like, well, do you know what, I'll take it off people that know me. Not off people that are random strangers that have seen me on telly. Because you don't know anybody really, do you on the telebox? So what you did there, you said, I'm not welcome in this house, so I'm going to dust off my shoes. Dust off my shoes and I'll leave. And yeah, it's that you just have to have a bit of... I like Jesus's advice. I really do.

He almost like he knew what he was talking about, right? Yeah. It's a good kid. I mean, you know, he knew some stuff that boy I mean, a great beard, lovely sandals, liked his mother, you know, knew some stuff. I mean, even if you don't believe in the... Even if you don't believe he came back to life,

he did exist, a person called Jesus did exist and he did preach and lead and teach and we do have some of the things that he said. Even if you don't believe that bit. He was the original influencer. He had some great stuff to say. He was a wise person. The more I think about that thing,

you know how you read someone's book and things stay with you? Oh, yeah. highlighting things in your book. And that lesson stayed with me. And I thought, yeah, I've been in that situation where I've literally actually, you know, I think being in a friend's house

and I can tell, I've done something to annoy her or upset them, but they're not going to say, they're going to do that passive aggressive English thing. I've never telling you what you did wrong. They're just going to be a bit shitty with you. And do you know, I remember sitting there and it was just, it struck me, I thought, I don't ever want to be put through this again.

No. They dust off your feet and leave it. And I dust it off my feet and I left and I've never been back. And you don't have to wish them ill either. I wish them very well. You don't have to wish them ill. You don't have to hold it. But I just think I don't want to be made to feel like that again.

I love Jesus' lessons I've decided. Hello. Hello, little. It's not such a little poodle. Is it a poodle? Labradoodles. Labradoodles. He's half for one of the earth, you know.

We did his DNA test, we didn't know he was. And what is he? So he's a Saluki. Saluki Greyhound, Labrador, miniature poodle. So we don't know. We don't really know what happened there. But, you know. Take care.

Bye. Nice to see you. And I think that's the thing, isn't it, about faith and belief. You know, I hold my faith quite lightly. And I'm prepared to be wrong about it, you know. But I think I've urged me bets a bit, to be honest. with you because if this is if it is true and then brilliant you know I've backed a winner but if it isn't and when I'm dead I won't know out about it anyway so yeah

we're winning it it's not a bad way to live your life trying to you know love other people try and be forgiving try and look after people know that you loved these are not bad ways to live your life and it's helped me to to forge a path that makes me feel like me, really. Hard when people do terrible things, isn't it? Oh yeah, I mean, but that's the eternal question, isn't it? Why do bad things happen to good people? What about evil and suffering?

Well, that's the ultimate, I don't think it's a test. I don't think God's some sort of wicked kind of governor testing us and playing with us. I don't believe that. I also don't think things happen for a reason. I think sometimes really bad things just happen. What do you say when, because presumably people do say that to you and they say, well, if there was a god, why did my baby die? Yeah?

I don't know. But God's baby died too. I don't know. I don't know, but I'll be having words. Of course I don't know. No idea. Do I believe in God every single minute of every single day? Don't be ridiculous.

How can you? I've buried babies. Of course I don't. You know, I don't know. But that's an eternal mystery, isn't it? And if we could answer that one, then faith would be an easy thing. But I don't think God, you know, when people say, why did God let this happen?

I don't think God did, but I don't think God intervened either. So I don't, it's a mystery. I don't know. No idea. It is the ultimate, it's what we call the ultimate question. why were the existence of people and suffering and we will never know the answer and I suspect that...

Yeah, why doesn't just everyone die when they've had their innings at the age? You know, 95 years old when you go to bed one night and just not wake up in the morning that's what we're all gunning for, right? Yeah. Chances are it ain't going to happen.

You know, even... It's a really rare occurrence. People die in their own bed you know, by falling asleep one night not waking up in the morning. It doesn't happen. People die in hospital. They're dying care homes.

They die with veins full of morphine. That's how you die. know, it's, so you have to reconcile, that's how most of us will die. We have to reconcile ourselves with that. Do you know what, Kate, when I die? Yeah. I'm going to, oh. I'm glad you said when.

Sometimes people say if, and that drives me crazy. Oh, no. I'm saying, if I die, what do you mean if? Do you know what? I wonder, I suppose I've experienced quite a bit of death. And as a result, I'm not frightened of it. And I, I don't. Were you with your loved ones?

Yeah, each of them. I was at their bedside. Yeah. And I felt that was a real honour. It's a privilege, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Some people are frightened, but I felt, yeah, I'm going to see you on your way.

Yeah, it's a privilege to be. It's like being in the room when someone's been born. It's like being a birth partner. Being a death partner is like being a birth partner, and it should be like that. You know, so I've been in the room, lots of times for people I've never met before, before the moment of their death, because I've been called to the bedside, you know, and then to be in the room when my mum died. you know keep walking from it I'll be in the room from a when my mum died you know

I remember my dad and my brother looking at me and going is this it and me going this is it this is happening now this is what it looks like and people are so scared at that moment but it's an absolute honour to be in that room when someone dies and most of us will die medicated and semi-sedated you know and just just the de-mystification of those moments is something I feel really passionate about so one of the things is you know that funny breathing that people do and they'd have a death rattle. All that means is they're so relaxed,

they can't even swallow their own saliva. Right. So actually you're thinking, oh, they're really distressed, they're just really relaxed. It's okay. Well, do you know what I realized, Kate? And I was really aware of this when my sister died,

and I felt, it felt too soon. You know, she was too young to die. But, you know what was interesting? Whenever you see death on TV, because we don't talk about it very much. Honestly, we don't. No, we don't. Everyone is making speeches talking about summing up that person's life.

And what I realised is, oh no, actually, I don't want my sister to know she's dying. I just wanted to think she's having a nice nap and she's with all her family. So I just talked in the present. And I think it's so weird that it's only when you're in that situation you're right. So no one's given you a manual for this. No, no, no, no. And it's different every time, you know. And there's lots of things when someone dies that you can't manage,

but there are some things that you can manage. So, you know, things like the lighting and the music and the sounds and the smells, you know, stuff like that. So I remember I took, lots of times I've taken in favourite perfumes or smells for people. What did he really like? Oh, he loved an egg custard. Right, let's go and get an egg custard.

He can't eat it. And that doesn't matter? Well, just hold it under his nose so he can smell it. What, have you got his after shave there? Have you got hand cream? You know, putting hand cream on someone, you know, music, the sounds, the lighting, all that sort of stuff you can manage.

I mean, you know, it's not the same thing, but when we had our last dog put to sleep, we had him, you know, the vet came to the house and put him to sleep, and we were able to be there and be with him and be present. And for those of us that have the privilege of being in the room when something we love or somebody we love dies,

you know, just holding that space for them and just going, I'm with you, I'll be the custodian of this space, and I will look after you in the moment of your death as much as I've looked after you while you've lived your life. How lovely. That's really lovely Kate. And do you know what I was going to say?

I was going to say earlier when we got onto this subject, if I don't, no, when I die. When you die. When I die. I would really, I think I'm going to put something in my will saying I would like Kate to speak at my funeral. Because I would see that as, well, you know, I will if I can, but hopefully I'll be a very old lady then. Or I'll have gone before you. And Tony's giving me such a lovely hug. I really love Tony.

I'm so glad. I'm such a sorry, he's a loon. But he's just a baby. He's the most affectionate, beautiful dog. And I have so much love for him. And you know what, Kate, I think you're fabulous. Oh, that's a kind of thing to say. I think you're pretty great too.

We're all just trying to, we're all just trying to do the best we can, right? We're all just trying to, if we can leave it in the world in a slightly better way, then we found it, wouldn't that be a great thing? Wouldn't it be great for people to cry at our funerals because we're not in the world anymore? That's all I want, really. Try and leave it as best way as I can and for people to be sad when I'm gone.

Do you know what I want? It's for Kate Botley to be mine and Ray's new best friend and she has no saying it whatsoever. I think that's a given. I think I'm a bit like Tony. I just really love people. I really love them.

I think they're great. Human beings are amazing. They've got capacity to do awful things. But most of the time, if they can just find their way and know that they're loved just as they are, then it's probably going to be okay. Kate, we've loved today. Have you enjoyed meeting Raymond?

You've had a nice time. You've had a bit of therapy? Yeah. I like that. I've enjoyed meeting Raymond. Oh, Raymond's just a treasure. It's such a comedy dog. Do you know what I mean?

How dare you? He's like a straight man. It's like, you know, like, Britain's got time. I have these dogs that like jump through hoops and stuff. You could actually just put him on the stage and he could just stare people down and he would win in a second because he's just look how nonchalant he is he really does not give two hoots does he I mean if

you imagine if on the train home you took Tony back a bloopy dog running up and down the carriage rim is just like looking down his nose at everything but you know what had sweet meats by some Georgian woman in a in a course a in course it takes all sorts and this is what I love well Kate we've so enjoyed meeting you are you going to say goodbye Oh, Tony. I don't know what that was. Tony, David Graham, we just thought, was that a staffie?

Yeah, a little staffie. And Tony? He is a bit suspicious. Tony, do you not, are you protecting us? You're looking after. It's because we're having cuddles. You're looking after. You're having cuddles.

I think it might be more to do because with this man Chega and Churizo in my bum bag. Will you say goodbye to Kate, please, Raymond? Raymond, you're a delight and a joy. Thank you for your company today. I feel like I've been, I'm not quite worthy to be in your presence. Will you pray for him, Kay? Of course I will. I bless him.

Nominee Padre, Pardria, Phileas, like, today, you go, my darling, God bless you. And you'll probably get there before me, all right? So I come for a cuddle when I see you on that rainbow bridge. All right, pumpkin, yeah? Old dogs go to heaven, you know that, right? Okay. True story.

I can't. You mentioned Rainbow Bridge. I'm in bits. I was fine, it's really funny. The producer's crying. I'm crying. Don't cry. I think it was the Latin and a rainbow bridge.

I can't. Raymond, you're blessed. That's why I use the same whistle for that dog as my last dog. So that when I whistle, when I get there, I'll go, and they'll just come running. Both dogs will come running. I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed.

And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.