Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Richard Herring

Episode Date: July 25, 2022

This week Emily went to Hertfordshire for a stroll with Richard Herring and his dog, Wolfie. They chatted about Richard growing up with his dad as his headmaster, his experience at Oxford University and his fabulous podcast, RHLSTP.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I once wrote to Multicolourn's Swat Shop and said, can you stop having music in the show? Because not all kids like music. And can you have more comedy? So I was a very... He's not as producers, you know? Rather than a child. But also just for me, rather than, you know,

obviously most kids did like music. This week on Walking the Dog, Raymond and I popped a Hartfordshire to take a stroll with a comedian who knows his way around a podcast because, let's face it, he virtually invented them, the fabulous Richard Herring and his beautiful. beautiful dog, Wolfie. Wolfie is part German Shepherd, part husky, so I believe she's officially a Gerberian Shepsky. Sounds like someone who plays in golf a Chelsea, so let's just call her

adorable. Richard is genuinely on this podcast by popular demand. I've had so many requests to get him on, and by my demand, because I adore the man. He lives in a ridiculously picturesque village with his wife, Katie, who's a comedian and writer and their two kids, and we had the best chat. We talked about his childhood and growing up with his dad as his headmaster, his passion for comedy from a pretty young age, and how he sort of always offset his intelligence a bit with this playful sense of the absurd. He also told me about his experiences at Oxford University, where he met Al Murray and Stuart Lee, who he, of course, went on to form a hugely successful TV career with. Richard was also really honest about how challenging it had been when that TV partnership

suddenly came to an end, and how ill-equipped he felt really to navigate the future. He obviously did go on to become a very popular stand-up in his own right, and 10 years ago launched the Richard Herring Lester Square Theatre podcast. Yes, I know the cool kids call it the RHLSTP, which has won a truckload of awards because it's brilliant. One of the things I love talking to Richard about most was the story of him meeting Katie, because it changed his entire script, really. It was like the hangover suddenly turned into its wonderful life. I loved chatting to Richard. He's really funny and obviously super bright. But I I also have so much respect for the passion and enthusiasm he throws everything he does.

Except for picking up dog poos, I feel like he left that a bit more up to me. Please do go and see Richard's legendary podcast live. He'll be at the Edinburgh Festival between the 3rd and 14th August and back in Leicester Square from September and check out the RHLSTP Book Club podcast because that's a total joy as well. You can also pre-order his book, Can I Have My Ball Back, which is part memoir about his experience of testicular can. and part of his take on masculinity, which is out in October. I really hope you enjoy my chat with lovely Richard as much as I did.

Please remember to rate following review if you did. I'll shut up now and hand over to the man himself. Here's Richard and Wolfey and Raymond. Oh, it's a lovely day. Isn't it lovely? Yeah. Is it the dumb thing to use poo bags around here, Richard? Yeah, I mean, if we're in the woods or whatever, it depends on where it ends up going.

on where it ends up going. I mean, there's a, you know, I live in a village, so the village Facebook is mainly about people, being upset about where people, dogs usually have pooed. Come on, Ray. But there's lots of fields and there's lots of wood, so usually if you find the right spot, it's okay. But as a dad, I always just think if my kids are walking up to this bar, and then there were poo here, which there often is, would I be upset? So I judge it by that. To be honest, Raymond's poos, as you can probably imagine.

I wouldn't say it's an impressive legacy he leads. Well, this one does very, very big poos. Ray, come on, you're not in North London now. You've got to be a country dog. My wife started doing quite a lot of the dog walks, which I'm annoyed about, so I don't get quite as many dog walks as I used to. Because I quite like this sort of hour in the morning where you... You can just have some time to yourself and either think about ideas or listen to someone else's stuff. Yeah, it's really nice, isn't it?

I think it's a big part of the day. Well, I'm going to formally introduce you. Okay. Because this man is here, and I don't often say this, by popular demand, I've never had so many requests to have a guest on a podcast. People keep saying, when is Richard Heron coming on? And now I've messed up the intro and given away the big reveal. I am so thrilled and excited to be with the very wonderful Richard Herring. And we're in sort of Hartfordshire area, isn't it?

Yes, yeah. It's sort of around about kitchen. So we're in a little village. There are many lovely villages around here. Oh, look at this, Richard. Okay, that's, you know, I've set up an idyllic scene for you to interview as we go through. It's like this all the time here. There's children fishing.

I didn't do it with my own children. I never got a chance to hold the thing where we're doing it. It's lovely. Yeah, this is a lovely little river. There used to be the house next to mine used to have a water mill. I just maybe show you the next time. Yes, well, I lived here all my life. So I know what it's like and how it's changed.

Yeah. But it's changed. I think that's for the better. We've got plenty of nice people now. I'm Richard. Yeah, I'm here as well. Hello. I've never met me. Hello.

I'm like this all the time. So I'm with Richard and we're in Hertfordshire and will you introduce me to your gorgeous dog, Richard? I will. This is Worfie, who is, she's half husky, half German Shepherd, although there's a little bit of Akida, I believe in there. She's the result of a holiday romance from someone who went to my mother. mother-in-law's gym that my mother-in-law didn't really know. It was a, I'm very glad we have Wolfie, but it was an absolutely insane decision to take her when we took her. We've moved here five years ago and my wife was pregnant and we're going to give birth in October. We moved, we went to move in in March or April, but all the, we need to do quite a lot of work to the

house and all the work in the house took obviously a lot longer than it was meant to do. Yeah. And then the possibility of a dog came up. There were five puppies, I think, all these mixed puppies and we went to someone's house and looked at them all and we chose Wolfie and my mother nor chose this other dog that I actually liked, there was tiny puppies but this other dog with lovely blue eyes that I kind of would have been my first choice. And then we got the dog in September, had the baby in October and our house was still a building site and it was very, very, very difficult. We only moved in in September October. And so it was a very, very, very difficult early time. As it turns out,

all the brothers and sisters of Wolfey went to people in my wife's extended family, really. Oh, how lovely. But the one my in-laws got was, got too big for them to be able to cope with, really. So my mother-in-law, who's a very tough woman, had her arm pulled out of its socket by the dog and then just popped it back in again herself. because she's very tough. Oh my God, I love that. But it was just too big for the, you know, they're in their 60s, 70s, and he was just too big for them.

So they managed to find a farm for him to go and work on. So we were lucky that we got this dog who's turned out not only to be luckily fantastic with the kids because obviously we had a baby. Yeah. When she was a puppy as well. And she's always been very gentle and lovely with the kids. She seems like she's got a really gentle energy though. Yeah, she has, but then you'll see, baby we're

we'll see as we go around. There are some dogs and it's only happens since lockdown but also, you know, she's she's five years old now so maybe it's something to do, getting a bit older. But there are certain dogs she just has, that take against or she's taken against and she can really snarl and, but most of the time she is very playful. And most time she just wants to play with the other dogs, but it's too risky to do it. And I was a bit worried about how she was going to get on with rape. Yeah, me too. What would you say of their relationship? friendship so far how would you describe it? I think Raymond is the alpha dog and has got this big dog that is at his becker call really. Rain's very chill and Wolfie's trying to impress him.

I think she's got this sort of motherly instinct in there a little bit. She's uh. I've really taken to her. Yeah she's absolutely no. I've never had a dog before. Have you not? So I was going to ask you about that. So what's your history with sort of pets and? I had a cat when I was a kid called Oscar who we'd found in our bonfire, but sort of been quite badly burnt in our bonfire when that was about four or five. And I remember with all my early memories is finding this cat in the embers of the bonfire with a kind of big hole in its side. It had been burnt and then we kind of got the vet and it was a stray cat that, and one of a farm cat from the farm behind. We lived in Loughborough at the time, I think. And we fixed it, fixed him up so we were allowed to keep

him because he wasn't really belonging to anyone and he sort of died in the end when I was about 18 so I had this cat for all my childhood really but you didn't have dogs but we didn't have dogs I kind of always wanted a dog as a kid and you know as my parents reasonably said that I you know it would be too much work and I wouldn't do it and they were correct yeah and then I lived in you know then I went to university and I lived in London for so long it just didn't and I wasn't in a you know touring around or whatever I just didn't feel I was in a position to have pets so it was only when I met my wife and she got you know she got cats into the house and then and then she really wanted a dog and

obviously once we moved it was a it was a real possibility to have a dog and be able to give a life and also i suppose there's a comic because it is essentially an extended adolescence in many ways isn't it yeah your life is just not geared to those things that that root you perhaps it would have been so hard to you know any of that time i was i found it difficult enough to look after myself for most of my life so you know plants would die and all that sort of thing so it just never I'd have a plant and I wouldn't be able to look after it so I'd you know it just didn't seem a possibility and I don't think I was I don't think I was that kind of person either or in that time of my life I wasn't I didn't want to have something reliant on me but yeah you know I was away a lot you'd be

away in another country for a month or two and then you'd be on tour and that would just be every day you know it's that I'm doing that a lot less now we now we've got the kids and again especially after lockdown I've thought well do I really really even want to go out on the road again in a in a in a full-on fashion you know it'd have to be something i really show i really really wanted to do i think to go back on any kind of major tour even now it's still quite hard because we'll be we're both work and yeah but my in-laws live nearby and they because they don't now they don't have the other dock they kind of are sometimes happy to take wolfie for a weekend or a week if we're doing something else as well but you know

i thought it'd be a lot more hassle than it is and it is a bit of a hassle in terms of rooting you down and you know she needs three walks a day. Really? Yeah, she's a big dog so we have a dog walk who does the midday walk. But for me, I suppose because I grew up here with weird artsy bohemians, that thing of dogs tying you down is kind of what I love about them. Do you know what I mean? Because I think your childhood would have been my dream childhood. Yeah. Because even though you didn't have a dog, I would have seen headmaster, father, three kids, weren't they? You had two, brother and a sister.

Volvo? No, we had a Renault. Oh, Renae's lovely there. Renno's 16. And your mum was a teacher as well. Yeah. And I bet they paid their bills on time. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was, you know, I remember it being quite tough, especially like when we moved to Cheddar when I was about eight and I think there was some kind of, it probably coincided with some 17th a recession, didn't it? There was all that trouble in the late 70s and I remember things got quite tight for a little while and it was, you know, and it's three kids and suddenly having my brother and sister a bit older than me and then suddenly there's another one to, you know, to take through all that. So, but they were, you know, it was a really happy childhood. They were quite strict and it was a bit weird. My dad being my headmaster. I did do a show about it where I addressed my feelings about it, but I kind of realised that it was probably

harder for him than it was for me in the end. He was quite a popular headmaster and it didn't really matter once everyone was used to it. I wonder whether, you know, I've always been, I've always felt like in social situations that other people might be judging me or, you know, not want me to be around and stuff like. They've always been awkward in those sort of ways. And I wonder if that's a slight hangover from just, you know, kids being suspicious of you at school. But I think, you know, I don't think it's true because I think I just had a really, did lots of comedy, had really lots of good friends. Well, it's interesting because it's probably similar to having some level of recognizability or fame,

which is that there's preconceptions about you when you walk into a room. Yes, yeah. So it's your therapist, I'm saying, you've thought that out because you're familiar with it, Richard. Yeah, I mean, it might be true. But, you know, but I did also, through that show, I realised how much I was into comedy and obsessed with sex and rude things long before my dad was in my head. master. So, you know, I was like this since I was four. So I think there's some element where, yeah, that's a bit of a, you know, a lot of comedians have got something that happened in their

childhood that has affected them. And there's a lot of comedians who's parents are teachers or headmasters or vicars and that sort of stuff. So I think there might be an element of your your parents of this authority figure and you're rebelling a little bit. But I also think there's just something in you that, you know, I just, I loved people who made me laugh. My granddad would really make me laugh and I wouldn't even understand half the jokes of that he did. Is this Don? Yeah, Don, yeah, my mum's dad. He sounds a great character. He was, yeah, he was lots of fun and he's, you know, old-fashioned guy, but also, and I realise now, look, he did a lot of sort of Charlie Chaplin-esque sort of

stuff and he was very influenced by Lauren Hardy and that kind of thing, but he was a very funny, similar stature to me, sort of shortish, maybe a little bit shorter than me, shorter and would have been that if he hadn't worked in building trade and stuff like that. So he worked on the roads a bit and he wasn't completely, you know, he did quite a lot of working class jobs. But I think he, I think his family were, you know, had a builder's business for a while. And you were, were you doing material as a kid? You did a lot of, you did a lot of broad stuff when you were very young, a lot of wee, wee, poo bummer. Well, I was obsessed saying we, we, we, poo bottom, because I just loved, you know, I loved, and I would say it for all the, you know, all the time.

I would irritate people, but I loved the irritation. I loved the fact that those words had power. And I did it for way too long. I mean, you know, probably I was at 10 or 11 and still doing it. But I just, I recognize, I like the reaction it got, but I also liked the, you know, I enjoyed people getting frustrated with the repetition, which is something that I've continued to enjoy. And I enjoyed annoying people, which is something I continue to do with a lot of my podcast work. as well. But were you aware that in your family it was was it Richards the funny one?

Richard's the comedian? I think probably my you know my brother was very was quite serious and still is quite serious and was very academic. He introduced me to loads of brilliant comedy so he understood what was good comedy and I think he is a very witty and funny person but he's quite serious and wanted to be a serious novelist and poet which he still does. And so, you know, he was much more the super academic one. And my sister was not academic, but was incredibly popular with everyone. She was very gregarious and outgoing, and everyone loved her and still does. She's very, you know, she's a, she's her own eccentric person, but she's a very lovable and kind person.

So she was, you know, she was funny in a different way, but she was much more of a rebel than I was. So me and my brother were both kind of, you know, tried hard at school and stuff, and my sister was not as interesting. interested in that. So I was sort of the funny one, but I also think I sort of combined the elements of those two in that I was, you know, I was, I was good at school and did well with the academic stuff, but I also was interested in, you know, people, making people laugh and, and a bit more kind of open, I guess, than my brother, though, to that sort of thing, a bit less. You know the way very clever people are often just restricted by their own kind of, intellect. It was a bit, you know, I was happy to play the fool and pretend to be more stupid than I was, which is something I've done my whole life really, I suppose. You get to the extent where you actually realise you've become stupid. Well, you're an interesting... I know that's your schick, but you are an interesting blend. Arthur Smith said something really lovely about you once. It was like a poem or something that he wrote about you. And I just remember there was a reference

to something like sage and buffoon. It was raging, it was on my 40th birthday, I think, that he gate crushed and he wrote me a four word, or five, six word, both, which I think was rage and balloon, sage and buffoon, which I think is kind of right, you know, especially, I mean, I think it was my 30th birthday, actually, yeah, at that time, you know, I think that was a very good, something up, but I think at school, I, you know, I was aware that being clever was an ostracising thing, and it annoyed me, and I'm still annoyed about it, it annoyed me that kids who were good at sport were really allowed to show off and we're heroes, but if you were clever and you weren't if you showed off about it you're a dick and if you you know if you

were seen to be clever that was all that was kind of a negative thing amongst other kids so i think there was an element where i was always going to be silly and and mess around but i felt that like by messing around and i think it was an annoying kid because i messed around in class me and my friends we were the clever kids in class and we messed around a lot especially when the teachers said get away with it but all did really well exams and stuff and we must have wrecked lessons for for some of the other other kids because we were trying to be funny all the time so So, you know, I think it was that realisation of, you know, you're sort of, if you're smart, you've sort of got to hide it a little bit. And so pretending to be stupid.

But I think as I've got older as a comedian, I think pretending to be stupid and saying stupid things is like a really good satirical tool. I'm just going to stop and give away a little bit of water. Okay, yes. Come on. Do you know, Richard? He's so little, but he can drink out of the cat. Wow.

Of a water bottle. That is amazing. Here you go. Yeah, I'll give Wolfie some of mine if it needs to be. There you go, Ray. Have a water, sir. She's going to come in. Oh, Wolfie's coming out.

Careful. Wolfie, I don't think that's very good for you. Come on, Ray. Is that in your mouth? I've got some treats for you, Wolfie. Don't eat the grass. He didn't want it, Richard. This is the thing you're just to sort of PA having a dog.

Don't you find that? It is, yeah. And I'm quite forgetful about things like that. I did think today, oh, it's hot, I better bring some water for me and for the dog. It's like a PA, but it's like a PA to someone like Robert Maxwell. You have to clean up the shit as well. It is, well, you know, but it's also, I mean, it's a good, it's a good training for children, which is the same sort of thing.

But then you just get to the point where you're cleaning up everyone's shit and it doesn't matter anymore. Come, and we'll see. So quite a studious child and sort of, you were always sort of knew that you would go, to university do you think yeah i think that was you know i it was you know my mom and dad were the first in their generations i think to go to university possibly my dad's dad's dad had gone to some kind of higher education because he was a headmaster as well but they'd come from middlesbrough and it was kind of they'd both been to manchester university they'd met each other before and were met them in the 13 and have been together ever since in the now and then late eight mid to late

80s so yeah i always thought it's going to go to university i didn't necessarily think it would be Oxford, my brother went to Oxford and again that was like a massive deal both for my family and for the school. It wasn't something that happened really from, you know, it sort of started increasingly happened a little bit that kids from a very nice comprehensive school in Somerset started going to Oxbridge. But I think my brother might have been one of the first. So it was there as a possibility. But I used to go up and see him there and think, oh, you know, that would be amazing. but I didn't think I was clever enough necessarily. And I think in the end, I kind of had to be slightly cajoled.

And I remember my history. She's saying, yeah, I thought you were. I wonder when you were going to come and ask about this, because we had to do conditional offers. We couldn't be taught, had the entrance exam and stuff like that. So it was all a bit of a different system. I think I was thinking I would go to university, but I was, you know, yeah, I was obsessed with comedy.

I wasn't into pop music. So, you know, that made you kind of weird as a kid. And I was saying, I was interviewing Dick and Don this week. Hello. my podcast and I remember that I once wrote to Multicololour Swat Shop and said can you stop having music in the show because not all kids like music and can you have more comedy? Like, so I was a very I'm not. Producer's, you know, rather than a child. But also just for me

rather than you know, obviously most kids did like music but I just, I found pop music quite silly and pointless and I still, I'm more into music now than I was then but I just didn't get why people were sewn to music. And I was listening to comedy albums. Oh, were you? Yeah, so I was a massive nerd. And I was more interesting. The nerds always get the revenge in the end.

I know. So like in terms of girls, I was more interested in getting a laugh. And at this for a long, even as at university, really, I was more interested in getting a laugh than getting the girl in a way. In the end, it's sort of getting the laughs helped you get the girls. But, you know, I would find it funny to do what you weren't meant to do in a date or whatever because I thought that was amusing. but obviously it's not to be rude to someone or to do something unexpected.

Well, without realising it, you were negging before nagging was a thing. But I'm not sure it was even negging, it was just behaving in a way that wasn't expected of you. But I was incredibly childish and it took me a long, you know, and I was clinging to, which is what the how not to grow up, but was sort of about, you know, I was clinging on to wanting to be a kid and I wouldn't drink tea and coffee. and I wasn't in a rush to grow up and I was scared about, you know, I think really I was scared about girls. So I did have a girlfriend when I was 16 and we went out for two years and she was 14 to 16 and I was 16 to 18. Right near the end she once stayed over when my parents were away and her parents were away but then said, I have to tell that we didn't do anything. We slept in the same bed

which was nice but we didn't do anything and she had to tell her dad that we'd say out. I said, why'd you have to tell? So he was furious that she'd stayed and, you know, nearly, nearly, that was nearly the end of it, but then it was the end of it anyway. But yeah, we never got anywhere near actually having sex. And when you, and then you went to Oxford and he did history, didn't you? Yeah, ostensibly. I mean, I didn't do very much work, I have to say.

I was really in awe of Oxford and I thought it would be the cleverest people in the world, and I really thought I'd got him by accident. I thought I'd be sent home at any minute. You know, and in the end, I got a decent degree, but I'd really done so little. I think if someone had told me I could get a two-one at the one at the one, start I'd have worked really hard and I think I'd still have got two one so I do have had an element of you know I kind of could I knew about how to do exams and I knew how to gain the system a little bit and I borrowed people's notes and you know I was quite

wily I think you know I was clever enough to cheat the system you obviously got really involved that's when you got properly involved in comedy yeah at that stage well I've done stuff at school so you know I was interested in as I said spent all my time really listening to these Monty Python and Derek and Clive not and not have got news records and I was obsessed with the young ones and so I'd done comedy at school and were you Rickmail yeah yeah I mean I love I love Dan love Rick mail and you know I went and I knew that the my main purpose of going to Oxford in my mind was to try and do comedy at Oxford because I'd read this book from fringe to flying circus about how all the pythons

basically had become successful so I knew that was a possibility but I also thought there's absolutely I'm going to be good enough, you know, I'll give it a go. But then we went up the first, and it was a horrible thing, because in the first term at that point, history students had an exam at the end of the first term, and I felt certain I was going to get, you know, fail it and get sent away. And so while everyone else was sort of enjoying their first year of university, first term of university, I was sort of hiding away in my bedroom trying to translate Latin even though I hadn't really done Latin for three or four years and reading the venable bead and all this shit.

So at Oxford you were... But you were thrown then sort of into the... You chose to enter it, didn't you? So the Oxford Review did auditions. And I hadn't done... This new weekly, fortnightly comedy club had started up called the Oxford Review Workshop, which was run by a guy called Tony Brennan became a very good friend of mine,

very sadly died a couple of years ago, but actually launched by opening up this club. We just, you know, it was so... So all these things came together with such luck. So that started the same term that we went up. I was too scared about my exams to go, so the first two or three of them. And Stuart was going to them doing sort of weird stuff that people were sort of slightly confused by. But I auditioned for the Oxford Review just before my exams.

And they said, can you sing? And I said, yeah, I can sing. And they said, oh, we'll prove it going. I think it was Dave Schneider. I think was doing the audition. He said, can you sing something? And so I sang this song that I'd written at school and done in this sort of underground student review,

which was about me having a singing penis and doing a sort of ventriloquist act with it, ironically. And they just went, and they just reacted. So I can remember they're reacting and Tony Brennan almost leapt over the table, said, we've got to sign you, we've got to come and do this at the Yorkshire Workshop. And I got a second audition.

I didn't get into the review, but we nearly became the review that year actually as a result of all this and so I did the Oxfordview workshop and did this sketch and Stu wasn't there for the first time he was seeing watching Suzanne Vega so we had we'd met I think at the Oxford Review audition and this is just for anyone who doesn't realise I mean what are you doing listening to this if you don't realise but this is obviously Stuart Lee who's a long-term comedy partner yeah so we'd met but we'd met and seen each other a couple of times but just the way things were we didn't do shows together. I did this singing penis song and like there was two guys in the front who were

shaking their heads who were the guys who you know who done well in the foot and I thought this could be the moment that actually destroys it or makes it and it sort of didn't go that well but Stu hadn't seen it but he heard about it and then we met at the the party for the Oxford View which was in a cricket pavilion and I was I was dancing I was pogging on my own to the sex pistols no one else was dancing and uh Stu sort of was impressed by that because he's impressed by music and you know and uh and unusual music choices and we just we just chatted and we did this just what chat we'll go this side car coming Raymond I remember we we there were like all pictures of old cricket teams up on the wall and we spent like half an hour

just making up stories about the people in the pictures and imagining who they were and stuff and we really got on and we both had not really liked what anyone else was doing at the workshop which was all very sort of Monty Python yeah and he'd done a sketch about people queuing at a bus stop with fruit and I've done this singing penis thing. So we said, do we try and do something together next term and we got a few of our friends together, one of whom is Emma Kennedy, who's now very successful writer and broadcaster and my best friend Mike Cosgrave, who's a musician. In terms of the university, it's snowballed very quickly we became this sort of hit sketch group because we sat down and said, look, let's just make a rule.

We won't, everyone else is doing crappy, like Monty Python sketches and, or spitting image kind of sketches. We won't do anything about personalities. We won't do any TV parodies. We basically decided to do our own thing. We were sort of doing a social satire, I suppose, rather than their political satire. And we did quite weird sketches.

And, you know, very quickly within the confines of this comedy club, which had, I look at the pictures of it now and realise how tiny it was. It was downstairs at the Ox of Union. So upstairs, and I think, I've always said, I think there's a massive drama in this downstairs. in this tiny sort of Guy Falk's cellar, which we could have filled with gunpowder and changed the history of the world.

We were doing comedy with, you know, Armando Yanucci and eventually Al Murray. And, you know, we're just this very rich group of people who suddenly all happened to be at university. So no one had really had been to Oxford in non-comedy since Angus Deaton and Rowan Atkinson. It was been a long time. While upstairs you had Boris Johnson, David Cameron, Michael Gove, you know, all doing their political. It feels like a play, doesn't it? or it feels like there's an alternate reality where I think the world would be better, if the country would be better if it'd been run by Al Murray and Armand Enoch,

even Stuart Lee, than those three. So it was... Did you encounter any of them at all? Not really. I remember seeing a picture of Michael Gove in a kilt and thinking he would look like a... But that's... But, you know, even... So I was a comprehensive kid at St. Katz, which was this very comprehensive, of modern college out on the outskirts.

And you didn't mix really with the people at Christchurch or whatever. You know, you would a bit through drama and stuff. So I did loads of drama and I did a lot of comedy. You'd meet the sort of drama people, but we never met the politics people. Coming from, as you say, you know, even though in the greater scheme of things, it was, you know, privileged in the sense that you had two loving parents and they had steady jobs and all that sort of stuff. But in comparison, obviously, to that sort of bride's head.

kind of privilege. I remember going to see a friend of mine who's at Maudlin. Yeah. She said, we're just going to go and see my friend Jacob. Yeah. And it was this wood paneled room with sort of classical music. Yeah. And this 18 year old boy and it was Jacob Rees Moll. Right. And we knocked on the door and he said, calm. Right. 18. Yeah, well, there was definitely a disparity and I definitely felt it and I didn't, you know, and that's why I didn't feel I was deserved to be there academically. I didn't feel, I thought, you know, I didn't fulfill any kinship with a lot of the people there. There was enough, you know, there's enough normal people there for it to be okay.

And the people, you know, I got into the drug. I think the first term was very wobbly for me. And then I met my people and especially the first Edinburgh, the friends I made there are kind of my lifelong friends. So the drama people were fine. But yeah, you know, I remember doing a thing where I would, I'd been stupidly, I was doing a Dr. Faustus play just as a, almost as an extra, it was a gargle. And they wanted to do a PR thing. And I was so keen that I did it where I had to. cover myself in porridge and hang out of a window as if it was a gargall, nearly freeze to death.

I was seriously, it was shivering, didn't like heights and was, you know, I did all this stuff for them. Obviously they never did anything in return for me. And then I remember that this very kind artsy woman who seemed about 35 years old, but was probably one year above me at university. And it was at Mordling College, took me into her rooms where there was a bar, I don't think I'm a mad, I miss remembering this. There was like a bath like you're having hotels in the bedroom, you know like a lovely bath and that's where i had my bath i a i was sort of thinking i'm naked in something you know there were these and these were two women in whose rooms they were in these luxurious rooms they were in were just walking around as this was normal to have a boy covered

in porridge in the bath but i was just thinking you know i was thinking there my tiny shrivelled freezing cold penis thinking oh my god this is you know and it wasn't even not even thinking well this could this become a sexual thing that wasn't even on my mind it was just humiliating my moment but you know the luxury they were living and compared to me where St Katz was a it was a single bed that was like not I mean I'm probably wider than it is now there was it was an absolutely different world we didn't have a you know we had shared bathrooms and so it was much more like a travel lodge I was living in and they were living and they were living in this unbelievable luxury and just seemed so grown up because you know and public school teaches

people that confidence you know so yeah of course it's that and so and you know it took me a long time to even realize that and yet you know I did all this comedy I came to London as a 21 year old and thought that I could go and do stand-up even though I was terrible at stand-up and you know even though everyone was older than me I didn't I wasn't scared of the idea of going and standing in fruit when I was scared possibly but I did it but you know so there's a kind of element of me that was and I know I knew what I wanted I knew I want I knew I knew the route to go to become a comedian I sort of wanted to go that you know I was driven by

that kind of sketch idea which I think was was one of the main points of difference between me and Stu why things were maybe worked and why they also weren't going to work because he was very dedicated to stand-up and I and sketch comedy was very passe at that point and I was I didn't want to do stand-up and I wanted to do sort of group stuff and sketch stuff and so yeah so but you know it's sort of a weird because I know how you know how uncomfortable I was for a lot of time and I had a lot you know in Edinburgh I I had so many bad experiences in Edinburgh. And notably when we were the Oxford Review,

which was my dream, we got to Oxford. I got to Oxford and I got on the Oxford Review, which is all I wanted to do. And then we went to Edinburgh at just at the point where alternative comedy had basically won that battle. And we had gigs where all, we did a gig at Late in Live where basically every comedian turned up just a hecklerless.

Keith Allen came to our opening show and moved, or, you know, sabotaged it. Well, he came to our show to review it for the BBC 2. It was absolutely complete, psychologically damaging because it was all of the stand-up people. It was all the people I thought, you know, these are the people that have to accept me for me to do the job what I want to do. Keith Allen punched the theatre manager, watch one sketch and then just said on TV, the Oxford Review, as you expect, shit, he hadn't watched the show. You know, we may have been shit, but that's not the point.

And then the next week I got to go on as a right of reply, and they just all bullied him and Malcolm Hardy just bullied me again. And then I find out, like years later, I realise, you know, they were going, you're all public school boys. all posh and I said well we're not you know only the guy who plays the piano who actually went to public school and they all you know Keith Allen went to fucking public school this is what you'll often find yeah exactly so you gave yourself a five-year plan essentially when you came to London didn't you when you were working with Stewart at that point and it was like if we don't make it in five years teacher maybe yeah I mean I think I probably would a bit of teacher I do you know I'm really

glad that I had the opportunity and you know I think in the early 90s it was possible to just go look I'm going to just live on the bread line you know but in the safety of having know my parents could come and rescue me if I if that was the end of the world yeah and we know we lived in a big house in Acton it was 60 pounds a week each to rent and so we had to basically earn about £100 a week to you know get by and yeah again I didn't think it was possible but I knew it's what I wanted to do and so we said yeah let's come to London we'll we'll try to you want to try the standard circuit which I didn't really want to do but I did try it and did not enjoy it.

We were you know I knew we could go to radio four and and pitched up to weekending and that sort of thing so we came with that sort of let's see how it goes and you know and just stayed at home and drank one pound bottles of wine and ate jack of potatoes but quite quickly, Stu got a job quite quickly that meant he was working on a encyclopedia of gardening with the relative of aldous Huxley's and I managed to get a job working on the royal family encyclopedia which wasn't quite as lucrative. Stu very, very quickly his stand-up took off. He'd started doing stand-up at university and his Edinburgh experience the next year, his show, the reviews should have been blasted, but they'd done a lunchtime show of stand-up,

which had kind of got very good reviews. And so he'd practiced doing loads of stand-up, and I'd never done stand-up, really. And so he came, sort of hit the ground running and was very successful very quickly, won the new actor of the year, got loads of gigs. I was sort of struggling but doing okay and then together we were also trying to sort of work for the radio and and luckily we did weekending which was quite tiresome but we kind of got contracted very much the sort of entry point yeah so everyone did this you got 20 quid or something to write your lot you know and if you look at that group group of people you know half the people in the non-commissioned rise room will have might have you know had no homes to go to and we're in to keep warm and

half of them have gone on to write you know the big Hollywood blockbuster comedy films of the last 10 years or whatever you know so it's an incredible room of talent again and you were writing with um amanda yunuchy and you're working with steve kuggan well amando produce weekending one week and we knew him from university but not that well and then he said look i'm working on this other show called uh on the hour that he did he's done a production course he was a producer and uh this was the show he'd come up with so yeah he said it's chris morris and um steve kuggan so he got together this group of people and we we ended up sort of the you know, probably the main, we'd probably write about a third of the first series, I think,

me and Stu, though a lot of it was improvised as well. So, um, and so yeah, we just sort of lucked out and got this writing gig on what turned out, obviously, eventually to be the big comedy TV show of the 90s, though we were, we'd been, we were no longer in it by the time that happened. So we're sort of both lucky and unlucky, but you know, we also gave you a, it made you think, oh Christ, here we go, you know, we, we, you're winning awards and, you know, it was all sort of happening. You think, oh, this is easy, this is how it goes. But we worked incredibly hard. And I was just, through my 20s and 30s, I was so dedicated to comedy that there was very, drinking and comedy.

There was very little else going on for me, really, you know. I mean, I was first aware of you when you were working with Stuart on Pistophon and this morning with Richard not Judy. It felt obviously to me you became incredibly successful pretty quickly. I mean, I think it did all happen very quickly. We, you know, and we gave ourselves five years and within five years we were at least done the part. I think we were probably on TV within five years. So it had, it did work in a much too quickly really, I think so, and to the extent that you didn't. Well, you didn't really appreciate, you know, that it just felt, oh, this is what happens.

We were just sort of, I mean, there was a lot of luck. We worked, you know, we put a lot of effort in and we, we did everything that came to us and we, you know, we were obsessed with doing, you know, coming up with stuff and we would, you know, write much more than any. else wrote. But yeah, but also the main thing was I just don't think I appreciate how how amazingly lucky we were to just suddenly get like a million pound budget to make a TV show and you know, we had so much money to spend on this show and we were kind of, again, the last sketch show that got that kind of, oh, it's probably just someone shooting animals. It might be it might be. You should have seen Wolfie's face when you said that. At two dad. That was quite close.

So were you happy at that time, Richard? No, I don't think I was. No, I don't know. I was, I was just so driven by all. And it was quite a, it was, it's very difficult being in a double act anyway. And we were pulling in different directions all the time, really. And yeah, I don't, I didn't really know. I don't think I enjoyed it.

It all kind of flew past me. And it felt like it was, you know, it felt like, oh, this will carry on, this will carry on. And then it just stopped. And there's no one there to go, this is what you have to do next. And it will help you, we'll help you cope with this. You know, and there was a. lot, you know, again with Edinburgh, I think like I was reminded of this because Sally talked about it on the television, I went out with Sally Phillips, which was my first, like, proper relationship,

really. And then we broke up, but we, I, I, we stayed working because I thought she was fantastic and I didn't want it. But she did a show where she did a show in Edinburgh about how upset she was for me for breaking up with her and was in my show at the same time. And apparently she said, she said sabotaging. I don't remember her doing that. But she was sort of taking revenge on me. Well, we were sort of still, and we were still sort of seeing, it was a very complicated thing, you know, but I just think like it was so, in fact, Arthur Smith, who we've already mentioned, my main memory of being heckled at it late in life is he was my hero and he walking through shake, I remember him walking, holding a pint, shaking his head at what we were doing, and then he did this show with Sally. So it feels like he had this, he was out to get me. So, you know, Edinburgh felt like this kind of unfriendly place. I didn't really feel I fitted in, I felt a bit either way. you know, I hadn't really, I hadn't really, I'd given up stand-up, and so I didn't feel I fitted in with all the stand-ups, which Stu did, but Stu was sort of keeping that to himself. Well, you said as well, when it finished your working relationship, and as you said,

it just came to an end, as you've said. Yeah. But it feels like when it ended, I feel you threw a lot of yourself into that. Yeah. You were kind of very invested in that creatively, I suppose. Yeah. Well, the double that was more, you know, the double act was much more my thing in a way, or at least the character I played in the double act would only really work in the double act as well, whereas Stu was all the time still doing his solo stuff, and that wasn't that different than what he was doing in Fist of Fun. So it wasn't, even though he had a wilderness period as well, and it was, you know, it's a difficult, that's what, there should be someone helping people because it's too brutal a business.

You're doing well and then just you don't know why. You know, I remember being in Edinburgh and Steve Coogan had sent, I was doing a play that actually Frank was nearly in and then was. in and I'd send it to Steve Coogan and he'd really liked it and said this is a you know he was really surprised by how well written it was and then he said I can't do it but you know come and talk to me about doing something with my production company and I went to a party with him and then Jane Root who was the controller of radio BBC 2 at that time was at the party and Steve's Steve introduced said oh do you know Jane

Root was the person who was going to decide whether we got another series or not and you know by now and not said and say anything to us and Steve said oh Jane do you know Richard Herring and And Jane Rook just turned her back on me. Didn't say hello, just turned her back on me. Even though I'd been just introduced to had talked to someone else. I probably not getting another series. I kind of knew she didn't like us and she didn't like a lot of the things that went on to be successful as well that she sort of lucked out with.

So you know, and to cope with that and to, you know, it's very, it's very difficult to get, even the level of success we had as 20 year olds. There's a lot of things to cope with. And it's, you know, it's a very competitive business and I was just confused. I didn't know what was going on. know where I would go next. I was sort of in a weird position because all the time we'd worked on the double lap, we'd probably broken even by the end of the 10 years. We'd, you know, we hadn't made much money and probably by the end we'd paid off our debts. And I had a flat, but, you know, there was, it was all mortgage. Yeah. And, but then I did Al Murray's,

wrote this Al Murray's sitcom, we did 37 episodes. I did nearly all of it. Yeah, but also suddenly got paid like proper money. Proper money. But it's sort of interesting how long it took me to, it took me to like the stuff that happened next after all the time generally. So I had a couple of years where I was sort of thinking, well, I've made money and no one really cares about anything I've done. So, you know, why am I bothering? And I had a couple of years where I was still working, but taking it a lot easier comparatively. And I did sort of, but I started in talking cock and stuff. And I think the decision to go back into doing stand-up and start again, just sort of completely revitalised me. Yeah. But, but, you know, with a bit of

confidence and with feeling I fitted in. I felt I fitted into the 2000. five generation of comedians more than I'd much more than I did into the 1990s. And looking back at it correctly because it was a very macho male environment and then from the 2000 onwards the stand-up scene became much more open to different points of view and and less aggressive ideas and more exciting ideas and and you know also women and people of different races. Weird things like that. Even though I'm a man and a white man I've sort of

it did it did and I think we'd influence the comedy like guise of people who like comedy enough that it felt like we fitted into into what was now going on and much more. And you went on obviously, I mean, you've been so consistent and committed at Edinburgh and you've done, how many? I think this year's going to be my 26th Edinburgh but, you know, I've had a few off recently.

There was a point where it was sort of, you know, I'd taken a few years off between being a student and doing professional stuff. But since then, it had only. taken maybe two years off and I did, you know, I really threw myself in stand-up and doing stand-up shows rather than, you know, I did do the clubs, but I wanted to do like one, one hour, two-hour shows. So this Edinburgh. Yeah. So I was going to, you know, I had testicular cancer last year, which, which I, but, but it's all fine. I think. You're okay now, Richard. I believe so,

but, you know, they keep an eye on you and, you know, and I'm very paranoid, obviously, about the I'm down to one, so I worry about the other one, but there was a, only one. I'm only one, you know, one time it really got to me and it was only because I've got young kids. It made me really realise where my priorities were because the thing, you know, I talked to the doctor and the doctor who'd said, oh, it's definitely not cancer, more or less, but I wouldn't been in. We'd been in for the scans and he said, oh, look, you know, it could be, you know, there's something there and it could be and he wouldn't say the word cancer and I thought that's, you know, I think they're not allowed to once it is, but he'd been, he'd been sort of so like, if I was a betting man, I'd say, you know,

it's epididididomitis and, you know, it's not going to be cancer, so don't worry. But we have check up just in case. And so we didn't know it was cancer until, definitely cancer until it was out. But I was listening to my son laughing in the next room and, you know, he was three, I think at the time. And I was just thinking, oh, you know, my friend had just died of cancer, Tony, we mentioned earlier. And he had a young son as well. And I was just, you know, I was just thinking that it was, I was worried about them and I was also, it became sort of quite self-indulgently. They won't remember me and all that sort of stuff. But A, it's not, as it turns out, it's not that bad of cancer. and B, it just made me reassess, you know, made me really think about where my priorities

laid and everything as well. So it kind of, and as a comedian, just as something like this is gold dust. So even, even it's absolute worse. When they told me it wasn't cancer, there was a part of me thinking, oh, that's a show, I won't really that show about having ball cancer. That would have been quite a good show. So, you know, careful what you wish for. But, you know, as a comedian, there's a part of you thinking, well, this is great. And you know, I've written a book. It's become a plot in relativity, which is my Radio 4 sitcom. Yeah. I've got a puppet. I just started doing this puppet. I mean, there's a lot going to.

So I've got a puppet that is my testicle. We should talk about the podcast because it's been phenomenally successful. And that's because it's brilliant. I mean, I was in there early again. You know, I don't know if it's luck or judgment or, I mean, I got in early with podcasts, but mainly because I just got fed up of waiting for TV and radio people to get back to you or interfering. And I just loved the immediacy of it.

And, you know, I knew I had lots of ideas and I was struggling to, convinced people to make them or they would make them but it would take three years and they'd change something and it just so i just thought you know this is great i just want to get stuff out there um and so and all that and every other comedian went to me what you know what you're doing you're not getting paid why you're doing work for free and i was going because i want to get the work out there and you know there was a part of me that thought maybe people will listen and then they'll come and see my stand-up shows maybe you know which it did that definitely worked um you know maybe maybe it'll lead to a radio show which it did in the end maybe you know

we started i started getting on to the panel show circuit as a result So it did work as an idea to doing it for nothing. But yeah, I think it was just, you know, it just appealed to me the kind of punk rock, you know, just the fact you could do something so easily and readily. And I've become very much more interested in doing things that aren't written, you know, that are. And also, I suppose you've got a level of freedom in that, you know, your interviewing style is quite risky sometimes. Yeah, yeah. And you start, what I love is that you always start with the least.

impressive thing on someone's IMDV page. What's yours incidentally? I mean, there's so many, I mean, nearly everything. There are some people you go, I can't choose because there's so many and there's some people who don't have anything. It's embarrassing. I think nearly everything on mine. I usually go for, I played a spider on school's TV and then the tape went wrong and they

didn't ask me to do it again. But it's a good way of disarming people and it's a good way of actually just getting stories. What I think, you know, I really want to get someone like Harry Potter, Radcliffe, Daniel Radcliffe. Yeah, he'd be great. Because he's a big comedy fan and, you know, he's obviously very big. but it'd be great to get him on and just not talk about Harry Potter at all because he'd be so sick of it you know because you know and so like if you pick if you pick something that nobody's heard of but often they don't remember the thing I think I've chosen I guess.

Come on Ray. It's such a brilliant podcast but one thing that I always strikes me about it is that you are obviously very bold sometimes in your questioning. Yeah. And that makes me think you're not sort of a sort of people please are well you're not scared of that moment when someone might not like you. I don't like it if they don't like it. I have to say, you know, you know, the, a couple have gone sort of a bit wrong. A couple have gone wrong without me realizing because Richard E. Grant wouldn't let me put his out and I can't work out why it was one of the best ones we ever did and I'm really confused about why and he blocked me on Twitter so I can't even ask him. I want the guest to have a nice time but I want to be a little bit cheeky

and take a risk. And the thing with comedy is you've got that little leap when you go, especially improvised comedy, you have an idea, you go, should I say this, you know, this, with Richard Grant, the one was, that he seemed to enjoy and was a brilliant piece, and the audience love, was about his Oscar, he'd just been, you know, the Oscars had happened and he hadn't won the Oscar, but he'd been nominated, but everyone before I'd have been saying, you know, he's playing up, he's being all giddy and playing up because he's trying to wow the, the, the people, the voters, you know, he's just playing an act. And he said, yeah, that was very annoying to me because, you know, I just was enjoying the thing. And I said, yeah, and I said,

Yeah, and if you were that good an actor, you'd have won the Oscar, wouldn't you? And it occurred to me in the moment. And there was a part going, you know, it was very near the beginning of the podcast. And I thought, you know, he could walk off or it could be the best bit of comedy ever if he takes it the right way, which was, you know, as a joke. Maybe he didn't take it the right way, but I don't think it was that. You know what? I could have told you as someone who grew up in a house of actors. Don't do it really.

I mean, it's a kind of joke you could make with fun. Frank. You could make with a comedian. You know, Frank's favourite thing is going on about how terrible his night at the Brits was. And so I think possibly you, with comedians, I think the boundaries are very different. Yeah. And I think with actors. I think it was the overall impression. He felt I was taking the Mickey out, which I wasn't really. But that's the, that's the podcast. I think I'm very different on stage than I am in real life. Yes. But I'm more interested. I'm interested in comedy. I'm interested in the experience and the live experience.

And it's that feeling the judgment. And it did, you know, that joke, the Richie Grant one did work. And he did seem to like it at the time. Maybe he didn't like it. But, you know, I like that risk because, you know, without take, some of them have to go wrong. Because if you're playing it absolutely safe, you'll never get that moment. Oh my God, I didn't believe you say. The other one that worked very well with David Mitchell when he's just about to do the new William Shakespeare sitcom with Ben Elton.

He said, I'm just working on this thing about William Shakespeare with Ben Elton. and it was just after Ben Elton had had quite a few failures. So he just talked about it and I just went, is it shit? And he went, no, it's very much we're hoping it won't be. And he gave a very good answer. But again, it was just, it was voicing the thing that, you know, people would think that you wouldn't usually say, I suppose.

But, you know, I think people also get, they know, it's the problem with that kind of comedy, it's about who's saying it. And this is what Barry Cry always used to say to me, who I love Barry. And I love Barry. Well, he was a friend of yours, wasn't he? Yeah. But it's not about what the line is.

It's about what you feel about the person saying. And if you like the person, then the thing, you know, a thing out of context might sound incredibly offensive, but in context or because of the person might be absolutely fine. And actually, I always have a thing. I make jokes about losing my family and my sister and my parents of no longer being around, you know, quite dark jokes. Yeah.

And I have a thing where if other people make those jokes, if they're in my club, I sort of accept it more. No, that's fine, you're allowed to do that joke. But when somebody has a completely intact family, I get a bit pissed off. No, of course. Yeah, absolutely. But that's about understanding, you know, watching a four-year-old,

my four-year-old son trying to understand how comedy works. He desperately wants to make you laugh, but he'll really mess up a lot of the time. You know, we'll punch you in the face and go, I was trying to make you laugh or whatever. And a lot of comedians don't get, a lot of professional comedians don't get where the line is and don't get how you find out. But equally you have to take chances. So you can't be in an environment where you're worried all the time about what people are going to think or what they're going to say.

I bet you're a really nice dad actually. I hope so. I really, this is my favourite thing. And I'm, you know, I sort of regret leaving it so late. But obviously, if I hadn't lived it so late, it would be different people. And that would be sort of weird. And I think it's the right time for me to, is the right, it was the right time for me to do it. And you know, I think again, being an old dad with all the other, you know, you've done all the stuff and got all the stuff out of the way.

And then you can, it. absolutely concentrate on knowing that you, you know, I think that it's, and again, going through, going through that cancer scare. Yeah. It just made me, you know, I want to be here for them until they're grown up, you know, I want to, I want to see them through and help them through everything, especially the boy, really, because I sort of think it's, I think there's, it's so hard for boys to navigate what's going on, I think, and I think to have, to have a dad there to help you through that, I think is a big thing. But. And tell me, it's quite a nice love story, you and Katie because you just sort of did you sort of know as soon as you met her well as it was I

sort of did I mean I'd sort of met her before we started dating I'd met her in a gig and I really liked her and I really liked just comedy but I remember her sort of it was like let's face it it's so in cold fall she's very beautiful we talked a little bit after the she was quite shy and we talked a little bit after the and I was talking to someone else and she was like there with where you are and I just remember even though you know we weren't I was talking to someone else I just I really like, there was a feeling, I really liked this feeling. And then I turned around and she'd gone and I was really upset. And we sort of talked a bit on social media, I think.

And she said she was that Edinburgh, which was a few months later, she said, I'm going to come and see your show. I'm up in Edinburgh, I'll come and see your show. And I remember, and you know, I hadn't really had much connection with her, but I remember being really, really excited that night that she was coming to the show and looking through the door to see her coming in. I thought I saw her come in. And I was great, great.

I'm really excited about it. but it wasn't her and she didn't come but it was sort of you know there was obviously something there yeah um she was in a relationship with someone and then you know and it's sort of a bit messy because her boyfriend was a fan of mine invited me to come and speak at his university but he did that knowing i knew katie and i went there because i really wanted to see katy again so you know i went to Bournemouth to do this talk he met me for lunch and katie wasn't at lunch and i was really disappointed so but i hadn't really consciously thought to Did you have to have a shit lunch?

I just had a lunch with this guy. It was a fun. But I remember, you know, I really thought she would be there. So I did this talk and it was fun. I remember seeing it at the back and liking that. And then we did, I did a gig that, I was doing a gig that night and that might be why I did, we probably arranged the talk. So it was the same day as my gig. It was in Southampton, you know, in nearby town.

And they came to see it. And I remember, I sort of looked across at a, and just, she was at a different table. So we did, we were hardly talking. I looked across a different table and I, and I've never really been into legs and at any way at all. But I remember just looking at her legs and thinking, I just got the most amazing legs I've ever seen. Can I say even I've noticed her legs? Come on.

And then after the gig, we just sort of fell into walking together. But it just felt we were war. It just felt like really right. She made a joke about anal sex that I thought was really funny. And then I was doing gigs all down the South Coast and I think had a day off. And I was just couldn't stop thinking about her. You know, it just felt like this had to be. and I felt that she felt, you know, I felt like she felt the same, and I was messaging her a bit, and she was going to come to London and try and be a stand-up, and so obviously things weren't going

great in the relationship, if her boyfriend wasn't coming with her. And so we said we'd meet up, and when we met up and I said, look, you know, I feel like there's something going, I'm actually, you know, I remember thinking I'm going to marry this girl and I'm going to have kids with this girl and all this. And I didn't say it because it was not even a first date. But I just really felt strongly. And then I said, you know, I just feel like something's going on in shit. Well, it isn't.

And I went, oh, okay. And it was a very slow, you know, for me, I'd always been, we're going to bed as soon as possible. Well, yeah. Well, also, I think you just get out of the way and, you know, I don't. You were frightened of commitment, though, actually. Yeah, but a little bit, but also, even if you're going to get committed, I'm not interested in, like, waiting around. And but with her, I did, you know, we did, we completely waited and we waited to, she was single. And we, you know, we just had these lovely, just these really magical, fantastic dates were

everything felt. Here, Wolfie. Wolfie, sit down. But it's weird, isn't it? Because you sort of think, what was it that, what was it that made that, it did, you know, and I think I felt that way. I think I felt similar things with other people.

And it hasn't worked out, obviously, but it did feel different than the other times as well. But maybe it's in, maybe it's in hindsight, you say that. But I kind of felt, you know, I had a moment on that first date where I thought, we're going to have two kids, we're going to have a boy and a girl.

Did you? Yeah. And, you know, it was just felt like the future was there. And I knew it. But, you know, it's, there must be lots of times you think things like that and it doesn't happen. Here's a question I'd like to ask people because were you a liar as a child? Did you tell a lie?

I don't know if I did a lot really. I mean, I did lots of jokes but I don't think I'm really, you know, and I think like as an adult, certainly honesty was always the thing. When I was dating honesty, I realized how much honesty was the best policy, even if you're being cynical. Just trying to get, so like, you know, if you're honest about what's going on, people, they'll And, you know, when you're dating someone and someone likes you, it's the worst thing, right? And I think, like, even if someone says, look, I'm seeing two other guys, but I like you and I want to carry in seeing you, it's better than finding out that that's happening. And if you like the person and they've been honest, you decide whether you want to carry on with that relationship. You know, so I was, I thought.

Honesty's a harder way to live, though, isn't it? It is, but I think it's, I think, even if you're a dishonest person, I think it's a better tactic. Even if you're a horrible person who just... Well, do you know, I lied a lot as a child? Did you? Yeah, and I think... I think I did. My son does, but I don't...

Does it? Yeah, I don't remember. I just remember, I love being irritating, and I loved making people laugh and people who could make me laugh. What do you do? How do you process... I lied a bit. Anger, because you don't strike me as an angry person. I think you're quite calm.

I am. I used to be, though. I used to have quite a bad temper. I once slammed a door that then fell off its hinges and nearly killed my mum. But luckily my granddad caught it. It would have banged my mum on the head. I remember having an argument with the girlfriend I was just spilling up with and smashing my own calculator for some reason. It's such a weird thing to do and stamping on it.

It's not a day he did. It has my calculator. It was quite a nice one. And you know, it's not, I don't know what I thought that was going to achieve because it's my own calculator. And, you know, I think I did get cross-a-but, I did get angry about stuff. But I don't know. Why do you change? I don't know how it changed.

I think it's just not, I mean, I'm very calm. about nearly everything. And I do a, you know, if I lose it, I remember like getting very angry with, I can't remember what it was, I argued with Katie about something and I got angry and stormed out, you know, got out, and stormed and slammed the gate and broke the gates at my house. But, you know, but then also just feeling terrible about it because it was, it was so unusual for that to be overcoming that way that you're that angry. And it was still angry, but I, you know, I went for, walked the dog and came back and I was still angry when I got back. and I can't even remember what it was about and every time we argue it's only because we're both really tired.

It's what I've realised we're both really tired and then we have you know we can have a stand-up row but we don't argue much. I don't know when the change happened or how it happened. Hi there. This is beautiful. We don't say what it is but what it's called but there's a beautiful. It's a lovely tea shop and a new bike shop so a lot of a lot of cyclists come through. Oh and there's a cat on the table. Just every time you take up. Is that your cat? No.

I thought you brought it out with you for coffee and I had a lot of respect. Oh yeah. Lovely to meet you. Oh look at those men, the cyclists. You know, this, when we came here, we'd sort of had a house somewhere else and it was all sorted out in about three weeks to go. And then the vendors dropped out. And so we then we came and looked at this place and we just, and we, it was at, you know, there's loads of things that it wasn't on our tick list for this place. And we just really liked the village and we really liked.

And that was one of the things we liked that nice cafe. Yeah. There's a nice pub, you know. You seem really chilled and in a good place. You know, but I think, like with the podcast, I sort of think it's interesting to me and quite significant that you're an earlier doctor. It gives you the, you need that kind of freedom.

But I think that's, I think I'm satisfied with around. I think I realised all I need to do is have an outlet to do this stuff. I think as long as I'm performing in some way, that means I'm sort of happy. I mean, I'm a sort of different person on stage. If I don't perform, if I didn't do stand-up, my wife used to say I'd get a bit kind of weird and Nancy. But just by doing any kind of performance, and I don't care if it's in a pub, if it's a thousand people, that's great. If it's six people, that's great.

But also, I'm no longer, and this is a problem in a lot of comedians have, even when they're super successful, almost more. So they're just obsessed with where their position is and however else is doing and who's doing better than them and why are they aren't the best. And I've just changed my attitude to go, all I'm doing, if I'm competing against anyone, it's only against myself. but also if i'm working and i'm doing what i want to do then that's that's all you know and so i'm i'm i've lucked and it wasn't by choice because i would have loved i think you know the career i probably would have loved is something like david mitchell um sitcoms panel shows i'd like to have done a bit more writing maybe than david does in terms of writing tv shows but um he does a fair amount of that as well so it's that kind of thing but i you know i i i just sort of

you know and so when it wasn't happening you think oh i'm a failure or this is happening or you You know, why doesn't TV want me anymore and blah, blah, blah, and why is that person doing better than me? What's this person do better than me? And I just realized, you know, I've lucked into this position where I do exactly what I want, even if it's commercial great, if it's not commercial great. So, like, most of my podcasts are just ridiculous,

you know, almost vanity projects, but just things that I think are really funny, but that only a thousand people think are funny. But then the big podcast has now given me the freedom to do anything I want. So I've got a budget to make other stuff, We did a short, we did an independent film. I've financed an independent film with the film director Jamie Adams, this Welsh, brilliant film director, which will be out hopefully next year.

And also, I'm well known enough that people will listen to my stuff, but I can walk down the street and even that woman by the stream didn't know who I was, did she? So, and she lives in my village, because I'm inside all the time doing podcasts. So, you know, I'm really, I think as a 19-year-old, I said, I want to be male, I want to be famous, I want the girls to have, I want girls to be falling all over me and be drunk going to parties and be friends with Elton John or whatever. But, you know, I kind of, that's not, I'm sort of a private person. I don't, I never really enjoyed going out.

I've stopped drinking. Everything that I care about is in my house. I like my dog and I like my family. And I'm doing, you know, I'm not doing everything I want to do, but I'm doing enough stuff. And just the idea of, you know, if you go, if you really went to the 14 year old and me, say, one day you be on tea, I'd have gone, wow, and you go, and if he said you'll still be working, you'll be work as a comedian, you'll consistently work for 35 years or, you know, however long I go on for, I wouldn't have believed it, you know, and I think there's a mindset amongst comedians, you've got to shoot, you've got to be the best, you've got to be, and even if you get there, you'll get knocked down from there, but also it's, and also what compromises are you making, you know, I think a lot of the, a lot of the great comedians now get onto TV and they're presenting, just they're presenting shows, which is fine, but they're not doing what they're greater on telly, you know. They're still doing it live, which is fine. But it's just what you aim for.

When we were kids, you could aim for, like, you know, getting a BBC two show on a Thursday night was what I would have aimed for. And I got that when I was 25 years old, you know. So that's, I'd sort of hit my main ambition. I would have happily, you know, if it had gone on to be. Someone like, if I could be Michael Palin, that would be a nice career. If I could be. He's so great.

He is great on your. And he's a lovely, lovely man. This stream makes me really, gives me a happy heart. Do you know what I mean? You take it for granted. You're used to it. I do absolutely take it for granted. It does look ridiculously pretty today. It's a lovely date for you to have come down. Are you a crier? When did you cry last? Well, last time I cried was when I thought I had cancer. I think that's probably.

I used to cry a bit more to like, but only like it films and stuff, you know. I used to be massively oversensitive. I think in my twenties I cried a lot. Yeah, and I think I was very, very sensitive. But again, I think quite, I think I'd been, you know, I probably could have done. with therapy over all the things that had been bullied and, you know, and everything. It was such a, you know, looking back at it, it's kind of incredible. We all got through that, but especially that I got through it, I think, because it was an incredibly sort of turbulent time.

Some people, some comics I speak to you, so they don't want to have therapy because they feel it's tinkering with what makes them able to be a comic. Yeah. There's an element, but I also think, I think the stand-ups of the therapy, I would just tend to take, if there's a big issue, I'll take it and do a show about it. and that's absolutely the best way to cope with everything. And once you've got it out there, there's hardly anything you can say that won't be better being said, you know.

And so the show, the routines and only think, oh, can I talk about that? You know, that's very personal. You know, I'm not sure. Those are the ones that go the best because people are just relieved to hear someone else say the thing that's going on in their awful brain as well. So I think that's, you know, that's a lot of what I certainly used to do was just, was kind of voice horrible concerns.

Well, that's comedy's true essentially, isn't it? that's your job in a way is that you highlight the things that we're too frightened to. Yeah. But I think by too, you know, by turn, I've done a lot of stuff about men's health, obviously ironically and then had a men's illness, but it's, and men's mental health. But I think it is by talking about it, you just, when I did Talking Cock, I realised just how screwed up most people were and how worried about stuff most people were. We were brought up very badly in our generation as men. And I think even if someone, when I was 18 and gone, you know, women, you know, you're not, women want to have sex.

They just have to be a nice person. You don't have to trick them and you don't have to convince them. You just have to be nice or interesting or sexy or whatever you're going to be. But you know, you were made to think from everything that like girls are like, oh no, no, that's never going to. I might do it if I'm married and we're going to have a baby. And, you know, I don't think it's the same. It's all worse in a way now.

But I think, you know, if someone had just talked to us about that, like sensibly as 15-year-olds and just said, this is just be respectful. and talking about stuff is a great way. So I've found doing stand-up has been the best therapy for me and usually, even when it, like when I did the Hercules Theory show, I was properly really depressed, really, throughout that show.

And that show was about trying to get through that depression. But the show got me through the depression and it nearly sort of broke me as well in places. It was those things in it that made me very unhappy. And that, but then when I got to the end of it, I kind of, it somehow magically made me realize what I was doing. It was a very, it wasn't, probably my least successful stand-up show,

but it was the most important show in terms of maybe think I should do stand-up. I went on 50 dates and 50 days in that show and that made me completely understand what dating was about and in a way that I had never understood it. So we're not empathic in a way? Well, empathetic but also understanding if you like someone you could just say, should we go out for a drink?

You know, and it was that, and by being honest, because I was, before I was thinking I had two girlfriends at the same time, I would, I'd felt terrible because I'd be trying to, you know, if early in a relate, not if I was with someone, but if I was, there was two girls and I was dating two girls,

I would have felt terrible about it. But with that, because I was dating loads of people, and it sort of weirdly ended up lots of you know a few of them wanted to go out with me. I had to go, look, this is a really confusing situation, but this is what's happening. If you can wait a few weeks, you know, I'm sure it'll settle down, which you did, and I went out with one of them in the end. But, you know, it made me real, it just made me realise about work and life and how to get on. And I think that's probably the turning point.

And, you know, getting back into stand up and obviously getting into podcasting, completely changed everything, but meeting KT as well. I think it just, it sort of saved me and having the family saved me, because I think I was still at 30, at 40, still behaving like a kid and still, you know, still chasing after young women and still. I should say, if anyone hasn't read that book, I really recommend it. It's called How Not to Grow Up. And it's such a brilliant book.

I loved it at the time. And I think, I've reread it since, actually, because it's just a funny, brilliant book, but you're also so sort of horrifically honest, as you always are. I think everyone moves at their own pace and you've got to find your own place in the world and you know you need to find you know you need but you need to work out yourself first really I think before anything else so I went through all that stuff and I really you know and yeah it might have been just who it might have been whoever the next person was but I but it definitely you know Katie was definitely something I mean it was something completely different and and you

know and it's sort of weird that that first obviously it happens and it doesn't work out of people But that first feeling and that first inclination was just absolutely bang on. And I didn't know her. I didn't know anything about it, really. So it was sort of just strange the way. But, you know, that's the way hindsight works. Isn't it? All right, don't be.

Oh, no, Wolfie was giving her port to say, I want to be your friend. Wolfie, Raymond's a bit funny about his face. Let's not fight right at the end. Wolfie, I've had a lovely time with you. Come on. Ray, I think we might explore this area because I tell you what, I mean this is beautiful. Well if we, you can buy our house if you want. I mean.

If we move, it's very nice. It is my dream house. Richard lives in my dream house down here. Oh Richard, we've loved our walk. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Wolfie, we should say, so your broadcast is going to be, um, you're going to be, um, you're You're going to be at Edinburgh.

Edinburgh Fringe from the third to the 14th of August, just for the first half. And yeah, but it carries on. It's all that's, yeah, so it's at the ballroom, ironically, in the assembly rooms at one o'clock, I think. But then I'm doing them all the time. I'm back at the Lest Square Theatre in the autumn. And I've got my book, my book coming out, which is called I want,

can I have my ball back? It's called. Hey, bye bye, bye, bye, Woof, I haven't really, I haven't really interacted with this wookie. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.