Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Sally Phillips

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

This week Emily goes for a stroll with writer, actor and comic Sally Phillips and her two dogs Lola and Teddy. They chat about her childhood moving around the world, getting embarrassed by compliments, Steve Coogan, and teenage fashion struggles. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

There are lots of stresses with three boys when you're a mum. Yeah. And there's lots of issues when someone dumped you for a Russian yoga teacher. There's things to think through, like, will I ever do yoga again? This week on Walking the Dog, I chatted to comic, actor, writer, an owner of probably the two cutest dogs in the world, Sally Phillips. Sally took me to her manner in London's Barnes, and we walked along the Thames Topah with her beautiful two rescue dogs,

Lola and Teddy. Sally first burst onto the comedy scene with her groundbreaking show Smack the Pony in the 90s, and since then, she's created some legendary characters, Alan Partridge's nemesis, Sophie, the Hotel Receptionist, Tilly and Miranda, and Shazza, Bridget Jones' scene-stealing friend. I had a lovely walk with Sally. She's obviously a really devoted, mum to her three boys, one of whom has Down syndrome, which is something she's really helped

bring awareness to. We also chatted about her childhood, moving around the world a lot, how she really struggles with compliments, and of course there was a lot of dog chat. Sally's writing a film at the moment with fellow comic performer Ronnie Ancona about dogs. Hurry up, girls, we need this in our lives. But in the meantime, I really hope you enjoy our walk as much as I did. If you do, please remember to rate review and subscribe. I'll shut up now. Here's Sally. I can let them off. Right, you read the way.

Yeah. I'm getting all tangled. Come on, Teddy. Have I got Teddy Sally? You've got Teddy and this is Lottie. And they're both Slovakian rescues. Lottie's eight, Teddy's seven. And yeah.

Should we do single file down this? Can do we can actually just let these off now. It's anyone there near the road. Yeah. Just where I quite like it along here. God, they're so independent. With the coronavirus, they still have to be on a lead in lots of places, but not along here. She's partly where I got really into the towpath.

And it's so beautiful here. Oh, look, I've noticed Lottie's a bit more at Mum's side. Yeah, she's a bit more, she's a bit more nervous, Lottie than Ted. Teddy was just off. Teddy's just off, yeah. But Teddy is such a faithful hound. I wake up in the morning and he's sat outside my bedroom. I think he's like the dogging up.

Doug. He's exactly like the dogging up, isn't he? It's like across between the dogging up and jar jar binks from Star Wars because their ears are just so much too big for his head. I should probably do the introductions. Let's get that out the way with. I'm really excited. This is Walking the Dog and I'm with someone I've been a huge fan of for a long time.

the very wonderful Sally Phillips. I can't even list all your achievements. Oh, please don't. It's so nice to be out with the dogs in the sun and looking at the river. You don't want reminders of what? I know, exactly. Oh, Sally, there's an Airdale.

What do you think of them? I do like Airdales. I do like Airdales. Yeah, I do. You sounded like there was a slight reservation. Yeah, there is a slight reservation. What's that? I just, I like my, well, I'm in a queue for a...

Parsons Jack Russell. So I considered an Edel very seriously. But I'm going to, I'm actually going to get either a Parsons Jack Russell or a long-haired Australian. I like the idea of having a long-haired Australian though, because you would just think, oh, well, the long-haired Australian is going to come. People would think, oh, she's bringing that awful boyfriend of hers. He's just leaped him off of her. Being on a gap in 12 years that man. Yeah. Is Chris Hemsworth, Australia? Yes. Oh yes. Yes. So do you want to introduce us? I know I'm not allowed to list all your accolades, but I'm going to say comedian, writer, actor. I've got no idea what I am anymore, really. I've diversified just because of the kids, really. So I think if I hadn't had kids, if I'd only had dogs, yeah, he's a ratter. Teddy's after he's seen something. He did once come out with a rat.

and I was really girly. They didn't lift into that book. And they try and climb up the trees and get the squirrels. And they are proper up dogs, you know. So do you want to talk this through your dogs and introduce them properly? Teddy and we have Teddy and Lottie. Lottie's eight.

Teddy's seven. Teddy is like the family's police dog. He checks the door. He takes everyone to bed. Checks everyone's in bed at night. I wake up in the morning he's sat outside my door. And Teddy's sort of rust-coloured, isn't he? It looks like a fox.

Like basil brush. He is really like the dog from up. Like dug from up. He's got massive ears, much too big for his face. I think he's kind of regal. Even though his legs are very short. And what make of dog are they, Sally? We don't know.

They're crossbreeds. I've recently discovered that you don't say mongrels or muts because it's offensive. Lottie. Teddy. Where's he gone? He's not gone straight in the road, is he? Teddy.

Teddy. Teddy. Teddy. There he is. All right. Come on, Teddy. Come on, guys. And Lottie, are they, are they related?

No, they're both in Slovakia, and they came, they arrived with a nanny. So. So there were they street dogs in Slovakia? Yeah. Wow. And Teddy was hit. repeatedly over the head with a frying pan. So Yonna insists that he's stupid.

We don't think he's at all stupid. We think he's really smart. He's learnt to do, you know, poor tricks. But Lottie is very, very sensitive. And how did you get them, Sally? Did you go through it via charity or something? No, embarrassingly, I've got a living nanny. I'm a single parent.

I've got a living nanny. And she arrived. When my marriage broke up, I got this super deluxe. and were advertised for a super deluxe top of the range nanny. Yes, you wanted a miss a outfire. And our super deluxe top of the range nanny sort of mentioned that she had these two dogs. And so then she put us on trial

where we had a month with a Norfolk Terrier to see if we were going to kill it, which we didn't. And once she decided we were safe, she brought the dogs. And they totally transformed the family life. And it's great because I think Yana now won't leave us. So we've trapped. her. The black male dogs. The black male dogs, yeah. And they've definitely, they've just all become part of the family. I mean, Teddy, we call Teddy the therapy dog because he takes the kids to

bed and cuddles up with them and... Is that a border terrier, Sally? Yeah. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, how old is she? Yes. She's, um, she's 13. I was actually just thinking, looking at her thinking, is she going blind? She's just like, It seems to be... Sorry, sorry. I don't know, she's very odd. Yeah, she's lovely dog. She is, she's gorgeous. She's lovely.

Gorgeous. Thank you, and you? Oh, look at the border's home. It's coming with us. They do make a good gang. We quite, we have looked after a friend's spaniel as well. They make such a, when there's three of them, they make such a gang, they rule the park. Do you know what?

I'm not surprised that border area tried to join our. gang because I want to be with Lottie and Teddy and Sally. I love the way they do everything together. You know, they, they, um, well, just their interaction. And also you just don't feel so bad leaving them on their own in the house and they've got each other. So leave them on their own with the, you know, the door open and go and pop out really quickly. And do they, were they nervous, Sally, when they first, when you first got them?

And did you get a sense that they'd been sort of, sort of, you know, They'd had a tough start in life. No, I mean, they were nervous of my boys. My boys are quite unpredictable. So I've got three boys, 15, they're now 15, 13 and 8. Yeah. And they hadn't had, we had a, we've got the world's least rewarding hamster. A hamster called Rockstar.

We called Rockstar because he was, we thought, singing in the pet shop. Turns out he was screaming in terror. So if you go anywhere near him, he'd buy. bites you. And yeah, so we didn't, you know, you need, it's as much about training the humans as training the dogs, isn't it? Have you found out with yours? Yeah, definitely. You have to, it's that thing where I'm always thinking with my dog, Raymond, who I didn't bring today, only because... You never know?

Well, you never know whether they're going to get along. Although I think Teddy and Lola would have been absolutely charming with him. That was a bit aggressive. Cyclist went straight for Lottie. They don't have much road sense, has to be said. Lottie in particular would really love to stand in the middle of a motorway. You know what's nice? They're a really perfect Yung Yang.

They are, aren't they? I think Teddy is how I want to be in relationship to Lottie is how I am. Lottie just she can't quite bring herself to leave your side. She wants to. But what we've noticed about Lottie is that any men who come to the house are really, really love Lottie. So they go, where's the girl?

So it's this sensitive, sensitive girl dog, the blonde girl dog that hides on the second floor away from the noise. And they try and coax her out. Whereas Teddy is, you know, you walk in and Teddy rolls on his back immediately and follows you around. Well, I've fallen for them already, I have to say.

Thank you. So, Sally, I'm so delighted to be doing this with you. And you taught me through, this is your manor as well and it's lovely. So we're in, it's barns, isn't it? We're on the tow path and we're probably walked between barns and get as far as the queue. Along by the river and the tide's out. What's that on? A labradoodle or something.

Looks like a cockapoo, is it? Yeah. Spoodle. Spoodle. It's a spring of spangy or energy. Scroodle. I haven't heard. Do you know a spruedle?

I had heard about it. I've ended up, this is just awful. I've become a terrible rescue dog snob. I've just become, this is someone who didn't have a dog until two years ago. Yeah, and I'm now just incredibly proud that I don't have any form of poodle mix. So this is, there's a lot of rowing. And they're not doing the eights yet on the river, I don't. I don't think, but so people are going out in singles.

And there's lots of serious coaching. I'd cry. Are you sporty? No. What do you cry? I think you just say, I don't want to do this and get up. I think I wouldn't mind it being on the river, but it's when they do that urg.

That is what would make me cry. The urg is a rowing machine. And you just have to do that for hours and hours, and there's no view. Oh, is that thing, an ex part of mine. one of those is that why the water's all sloshing around in it? No. That's a paddling pool.

That's just a weird sense of oil construction. That's a cup. Once we go back to the Phillips family and your childhood essentially, because you grew up, you had quite a peripatetic childhood, didn't you? You move around quite a lot when you're a kid. Yeah, my dad worked for British. Airways, or initially worked for BOAC as it was then. And yeah, they got married.

There's a sort of Georgie girl photo of my parents getting married on town hall steps. My mother in a sort of natty little Chanel-like suit. And what looks like a very modest beehive. And then they flew out to Hong Kong. My mum taught English out there and my dad worked for the shareways and yeah they had two of us out in Hong Kong and then they did a, I can't remember,

10 countries in 14 years or something and yeah, it was a great childhood. Was it? Yeah. Yeah, it was fantastic. So where did she do? You moved Hong Kong and then Zambia where we had a dog called Whiskey

that played football, Golden Retriever called Whiskey, played football. And then we had to leave whiskey behind. My dad, when he was, before he married my mum, had a monkey somewhere. I can't remember where he was living. Really? Really?

So, yeah, but we didn't have a lot of pets growing up, which is sad. Oh, I like the sound of your dad. It sounds like a sort of benevolent Michael Jackson. He couldn't. If you imagine what the polar opposite of Michael Jackson is, that is my dad. And never wears any form of gloves. let alone one.

Takes no interest in his personal appearance. Can't dance. Really? Yeah. And did you know siddling, Sally? I've got two younger brothers, yeah. And so the little one was born in Borneo. So we did Borneo and then Beirut, who evacuated when the war started.

Abidabi, Dubai, Bahrain. Of course. Middle East, Australia and then Italy and then backed. And what was your, how would you define your sort of family energy, I suppose? You know, was it sort of noisy extroverts and... I think we're quite sort of, when you're always moving, you're there, I suppose you become good at fitting into new environments quickly. Yeah.

But you don't ever get confident to be the life and soul of the party. I think there's something about being I don't know when people are very very very secure than they very secure in their long-term relationship so if you're just moving if something goes wrong you might not have time to sort it out before you have to leave country so I think there was a certain

it's not its reputation but there was a certain modesty to being a British expert in the 70s sort of sense of not being flash being different to other nationalities and you know I remember saying I'm North American and I'm not South African I'm British and having a sense

that that did mean never saying you are good at anything drinking tea being you know being fantastically polite and knowing a lot more than you said and were your parents quite sort of into banners and they weren't etiquette at all they're not remotely stuck up I mean my my dad's family were teachers and my mum's family were news agents and so but when I see etiquette I suppose I don't mean I mean more like my parents because we moved

around a lot more did you what do you what do you what do you went how did you my parent we moved to Australia New Zealand we were moving around in Australia so where were you oh imagine we'd have we never each other where were you I was Yeah, we went to Sydney. Me too. I went to school there and came back with an Australian accent. Who did I? Did you?

And then it was the one accent I couldn't do for a really long time. So when you started sketch comedy, everyone could do Australian no problem. I just couldn't because I couldn't hear it for ages. Well, you probably, what was odd? My sister was really, we were always really upset because my sister was like, why did we have an Australian accent before neighbours? Everyone just thought we spoke old when we came back. It became cool with Kylie.

Yeah. When we came back, there was, I had an Australian English teacher and people thought I was putting it on to get better marks. In what I now remember was my colouring. The only Australian thing I could master was the dad in, remember that thing, Sylvania Waters. And I remember, it was one of those sort of fly on the wall reality shows. I think it was that documentary maker Paul Watson, he did the family. And there was this, the dad came in and it was my parents' favourite line because he walked in genuinely irate and he went. Is there any good reason why the television isn't on?

I love that. That is very good. Someone had turned the TV or? I did a film out there. Where would have been 15 years again? I said just after Ollie was born. So my response to Ollie being born with Dan syndrome was like, was a bit, come on, Ozzie, come on, come on.

I was like, this isn't going to stop me. So I flew out to Melbourne to do a feature with this baby with Dan syndrome. It's fantastically difficult to get anyone with a disability. into Australia, as you can imagine. You might need help of some sort. We're not up for that. But yeah, I remember landing in Melbourne and seeing the big...

It's the swearing that I miss. The big sign on the way in from the effort. Like, don't be a bloody idiot. Don't drink and drive. That's a government... Government advert. Public health warming. Don't be a bloody idiot.

There's a level of informal. which I really like, which is you expect the Prime Minister, you know, saying, Prime Minister, what do you have to say about the recent tax? Oh, bloody hell, mate. Not this again. So I'm getting the sense you had quite a happy childhood. Yeah, yeah, very, I mean, you know, I, yeah, I had every possible privilege, saw the world. We were British Airways kids, so we got to use the crew hotels.

although we wouldn't have, you know, a house of a swimming pool would be able to visit the holiday inn which had a suing pool. So I'm getting the impression, well-adjusted, lovely parents, a lot of emotional stability. So then I can't work out why you became a performer. Well, I think a lot of people who move around become performers. I think it's the thing where you become an observer of what's going on rather than, Right in the centre. You find a lot of performers with army backgrounds, teaching backgrounds, vicar backgrounds. It's just really common. Like most people have at least one big move. There was definitely a period in my early 20s where I'd realised I'd sort of, I'd done my tricks

after about a year and a half of friendship and I didn't know what to do next. It's like, okay, we're now complete. This is the cycle is now complete. Oh right. We continue now. Oh, exciting terrain. Are you very attached to books? Yeah. Because I find that, because you, all those things that make your home portable. Yeah. Like loads and loads and loads of books.

Then you, whenever you put your bookshelf up, then you're home. Or for a long time, I had that. And did you have, so you said you had a dog when you were in? Yeah, we had a dog in Zambia and then we weren't allowed another pet. So I banged on about it. I banged on about getting a dog my entire life. Did you? And then, no, then we ended up,

I never expected to end up in the suburbs, you know, doing that, being a, being a mum, I mean, I was only really working six months of the year for about 10 years when the kids were, when I was getting pregnant and having babies. And I thought, well, now I can get a dog. Now finally, we haven't, it always used to be it's not fair on the dog

because it's not stable. And then everyone just said to me, oh, you can't manage your own children. You'll never manage a dog. And I allowed these. I'm going to call them non-friends, these non-friends of mine. I allowed that to, but I just had this hunch that having the dogs would make it easier with the kids not harder. And indeed they have made it a lot easier. For starters, you can go, don't scream who's scaring the dogs.

they'll behave for the dogs in a way they won't behave for me and they calm them I've got you know I've got well Olly with additional needs lots of sensory needs and he'll just hold Teddy

and stroke him for an hour really? Yeah and then demand to have his photograph taking with Teddy and loads of loving poses he loves it loves nothing more than to pose with Teddy for an anti-wonder wonderful animal handler

presumably he's only but presumably for his Tinder profile of the future. It sounds like you were still a dog family. My mum said last night, it was my mum's birthday yesterday, she said last night. She said, we know your views on your childhood, we read about them in the papers, which was quite a, quite punchy. Was that a reference to anything in particular? What have you said about your childhood in the papers? I've said that I didn't like boarding school, which of course was a massive, massively difficult thing for them to pay for and, you know, definitely them thinking they were doing the very best thing for me.

And you went to Wickham Abbey, which is quite a sort of well-known traditional. I think it's, you know, I think it's probably really nice now. They have, you know, a thing called pastoral care now and also a salad bar. Whereas it was all... Is that like Garfuncle salad bar? A sweet corner some cold, not all? How old were you then, Sally, when you went? Yeah, because you're moving around and then...

I went to Wickham at 13, but I went to boarding school at 9. And I just think that's a really, really bad idea. But I don't think they knew that, and that's what everyone living abroad did. So we were in the Middle East, and the schools weren't very good. In Abu Dhabia, a girl had got kidnapped from our school. And they were worried about us not having consistent friendships. And also, it's just what everybody did, and the company paid for you to go. So, my parents are very funny.

Are they? My brothers are very funny. My parents are, they don't think they're funny, but they are. And they really appreciate humour. But it's all part of this modesty thing of making yourself appreciating joke. That's how you fit into your new environment. And when you were where you were funny, you started growing up? I wasn't funny.

My brothers were funny. I was stupid. That was the... So I was a person who couldn't, work out that if you posted a block of ice it would have melted by the time, you know, I was, I was stupid, I was one that fell down the toilet and there's various types of funny, aren't there? But one is, you know, wit and that's definitely my middle brother, Andrew. Yeah.

He's incredibly witty. He was in advertising and branding. It's really creative. He works in music for a while. Oh wow. And he's just really sharp and really, really funny. Yeah. does a lot of word play.

And so it wasn't me that was funny at all. But I took myself very seriously and wanted to be a proper actress. And it turns out their aspiration was hilarious. And the more I tried to be Juliet, the more they laughed. And so here I am, washed up on the shores of idiocy.

I do like it. I do love love. laughing now and I love that that sort of slightly, slight anarchy that you get in comedy and in music. Yeah. That I, you know, did you have that sense then that, you know, you went to this boarding school which is, you know, well known and I've heard of it and it's quite, it well, did you feel too big for it? Do you know what I mean? Definitely not. No, I just, I didn't feel I just mean in terms of your personality or did you feel you fit it in? Neither of those things. I didn't feel too big for it and I didn't feel that I fitted in.

So where were you? I just in that in terms of that school. I think it was belonging. It was like not having a sense of belonging because there was a lot of you know very very nice people but pony club hobbs shoes wearing people and Sally I just had a shivers from you when you know exactly here they are. Well I remember trying to sew my own clothes to look like their clothes. So it is the everything of pan-trop. There was a big phase for wearing peppermint stripe-gathered skirts. Do you know what, do you know what I mean? And they were really, they were in a kind of brushed cotton, but I didn't know where you got them and I certainly couldn't afford them. And so I bought a load of red and white striped material from John Lewis

and then thought, well, I'll make a skirt. How hard can it be? And then my mother wouldn't lend me her sewing machine because she thought quite correctly, I'm sure, that I would break it because I didn't know how to use a sewing machine. So I sat trying to sew, and I did sew, in fact, very badly. I sewed myself a skirt, but of course it was nothing like bare skirts. And so it didn't work. Because really you're trying to, you're just trying to camouflage, aren't you? You're trying to fit it.

And so then when you definitely can't fit in, then there's different ways of dealing with it. And I suppose at that point, I went, So I can't do that, so I'm going to pretend. I remember, you know, because coming back from overseas, and it was very tribal when we were young, what music you like. I said, what music do you like?

My blood would run cold. I wouldn't have, and I was quite musical, but I just, I had no idea who Limel was. Do you know what, respectfully, I'm really proud of you for that. You made the right choice. But so then I go, I just like at Maninoff, it sounded incredibly pretentious, but it was just a way of not,

having to answer the question. I think what happened to me is I stopped. What was very good about it was I stopped being so afraid of getting it wrong, which is a very good grounding. How do you think you stopped that? Well, just because I could never get it right. So then it's adversity inoculation, isn't it? So then you've got it wrong and no one dies.

And also, then you do start going, I'm not sure I want to fit in anyway with this. I'm allergic to horses, so coming to the Jim Garner will be 100% miserable. I don't really want to go to the Jim Carna anyway. And what was good at Wickham was there were a load of Miss Jean Brody type teachers. It's a wild English teacher who used to host hippie picnics and poetry readings. So there were good sides. A debating club where we went and debated various different other schools. and I debated Jacob Rees-Mogg in the chamber at Eton.

How did that go? I was booed. I remember he was followed in by, I mean, in my memory, it was like, you know, Jesus in one of those biblical epics from the 70s was just crowds following him. And then I remember him going up into this sort of, must have been a pulpit type thing to speak. Yeah, that sounds right.

Yeah. Yeah, he was, he was, you can see how this cabinet, this government's come about because the characters were so big and it was such a world in which people were you know, worshipped or whatever. And much more, it seemed much more so than Oxford did when I got there.

Because he was at Oxford, wasn't he? Yeah, I didn't cross-past with him at all. So once I got to Oxford, I just sort of found my tribe and everything was fine. Did you? Yeah. And you did? Italian, completely. I know, but you're one of those pointless.

Because, no, I'm sorry. I'm not going to let you have that, Sally. Yeah, I know, it's really lucky. My friends from there are still my best friends. I met some amazing women there, really, really brilliant women. And you started performing there. didn't you? I did, yeah, my dad said to me, yeah, it was really.

I did music at school. I did Anita and West Side Story, the end of school, but I didn't do drama because you couldn't do drama and music. So I just did music. And then, yeah, and then got to Oxford and realized that the standard was just, you know, I went from big fish and small pond to small fish and big pond. and I got into the wind band, Oxford University Wind Band, and there was something like sixth flute in the wind band,

which is an entirely wind-based orchestra. And I went to the first rehearsal, and it was an incredible time, I don't know what you call it now, time code, like 56 over 72 or something. And I was like, I have no idea how to even count this. So I didn't do that for very long. and then started doing acting. And by the end of the first year, it was writing.

And you encountered loads of other. Were Stuart Lee and Richard Herring there at that time or something? Were they slightly earlier? I didn't meet them. I didn't have any interesting comedy. I met them after a bed left. Ah, okay. I think.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. So they would have been in the third year when I was in the first year. Oh, oh, no. She's just stalling him because he's been. Not attacked, not by a dog like that, but by a Shiba Inu, I'm just trying to reaclimatize him. Like when I see other dogs coming that I think he might be a bit nervous of just to try and distract him. So I don't want to be picking him up. No, he's so sweet, though.

He's so sweet. Tell me about your dog? So he's called Monty. He's a cross between a maltese and a Yorkshire area. Oh, wow. So I adopted him when he was six months old. Oh, where from? Oh, a friend of mine.

Good boy. Oh, so nice to meet you. Have a nice day. Come on. So after Oxford and you got, to me, the first thing I remember you, associated with the Smack the Pony, which was obviously so groundbreaking for people at the time. Did it fit, what did it feel like being, you know, that was your project, and you created it and you were, were you conscious at the time, you were you conscious at the time?

at the time that kind of what a big deal it was. It felt very high stakes. Yeah. Because it was, you know, just accepted that women simply weren't as funny as men. Yeah. So, I remember thinking, if this isn't funny, then they're going to have won that argument. And that's going to be very bad. And all the women are going to hate, all the really funny women are going to hate us for,

queering the pitch. You don't say that anymore, but, you know, for giving them so much ammo. Yeah. And so, yeah, it did feel, felt nerve-wracking. And then, you know, it didn't feel that much like it was, and I think it's become sort of more celebrated now than it was then. And we used to be nominated for all the awards, but we never used to win them. always up against Sally Gee and there was this idea that yeah yeah okay so

um yes the girls but the really funny business is done by Simon Pegg and Sasha Baron Cohen so yeah and then it was this sort of bit of a joke that was so popular in Scandinavia where of course things were slightly less sexist I'd only ever seen I suppose women in comedy in a sort of caricature you know it was either what time do you call this then you know the old bag or it was sexy woman you know that's how you'd always perceive and I think that was just ingrained in me and to see women like I thought oh they're like me you know and they're they're being just

funny for funny sake that's that's what it felt like that was the objective so it's good it felt like that and it felt like we were doing so we didn't have returning we're coming straight after the fast show so we didn't do catch phrases and returning characters we didn't want to do any parody because of French and Saunders and we didn't want to do any topical references you know to distinguish from other things and so it did end up having because we had so many we had such a strict so many rules it ended up having quite a strong brand I think and it has lasted but those rules were really really reactive reaction yeah you know reactive why hasn't it dated it really Well, I think because of those rules, and it probably, you know, it has dated a bit, but because of the, so we're playing situation, not characters. There's not a type of person that has changed. So you're playing, you know, someone who, someone getting it wrong generally.

It was interesting, I remember thinking, gosh, in boys sketch shows, they will have, the boys will play people robbing the banks and then the police coming. And we would play two women in a car park round the back who could vaguely hear a rumpus. And that felt like, that felt like a, you know, an accurate representation of our lives. Yeah. That, you know, we were allowed to do stuff, but we were allowed to be out. We were allowed to be out of the house, but we weren't yet allowed to rob the bank or do any of that stuff. We had to sort of vaguely overhear other things. And this sort of feeling of being an observer that I think women, you know, less and less, but at that time, very much had the idea that

and we would often have the exciting event to just happen so the bus had just crashed and this was the sort of useless period as you hung around waiting for the police to turn up yeah yeah so you're not with Prince Alia with Falstaff in the tavern

but then those are the best scenes you're washing up you're washing up you're not even there you can hear jokes happening at the front did you um because you must have of, you know, you became hugely famous at the time. And I just wondered how that was in the late 90s, because that was a complicated time for women.

You know, it was sort of lads and laddettes. Because it was that whole era, the 90s was... That's exactly right. It was a terrible shock. I'm like coming out of Oxford where, you know, I was in charge of all the boys I knew, really. And no one would have dared to say that women weren't as good. men. I mean, and then, and then you go for, go for auditions and they would say,

oh, she was really good, but can she come back more attractive? You go, no, this is it. This is the, this is as attractive as it can. Like, apart from what do you mean by that? What do you, what do you, what do you mean by that? Do you mean wearing shorter skirts? I remember being up in the Edinburgh Festival and all the comedians obsessing over this show, Susie wrong human canon, who was a Hong Kong comedian who did a show that did involve her firing ping-pong balls out of her vagina and she wandered around the Pleasant's courtyard in a latex onesie most of the day and all these you know stinking comedy writers we'd go and see the show over and over and over and over. I was like, this is just so boring, guys. She's literally just wearing

shiny clothing. That's, anyone can look like that if they put on some shiny clothing and then going, no, no, there is something about her. So I went out and bought a pair of PVC trousers. So I turned up to do my show in my shell suit. This is a new doing the Edinburgh festival, yeah. Yeah, turned up to do the show in a, you know, track suit some sort. Did lots of dancing around and jumping about and then put on these PVC trousers in a white t-shirt and I got offered three jobs before I hit the bar and then you go now this is a really big moral dilemma should I ever wear these trousers again or not somehow if I wear these trousers again in a work context I will just feel dirty really really dirty so the only time I ever wore them again was at I

than to play a whore in a helicopter for Armandie Anichie's Friday night armistice. The election night armistice where I was supposed to be starting the first sex scandal of the next government. You also, Sally, I think, obviously smacked the pony felt like, yeah, it was just huge. And I mean, I know you get that from a lot of women, don't you? Just saying you were inspiring and... But also, I remember when I first saw you on Alan Partridge and... and you made this role just I mean it was the what are they used to call Philip Seymour Hoffman the grand larceness you know because he was seen still but you do you know what I was just about to say I absolutely hate compliments I feel like I'm being sort of burnt alive and then you and then you have said I'm in any way similar to Philip Seymour Hoffman and I'm just like keep going all day well the reason I made that references because there's a naturalism and subtlety and I love something Larry David pointed

out once about comedy and he was talking about curb her enthusiasm I think and he said well I always hated it when I'd watch comedy and there'd be this guy doing these ridiculous things being unreasonable and impossible yeah and being funny and no one would laugh at him they would just set their poker face in that sitcom mode it was a rule that you weren't allowed to laugh in a comedy show. If you laugh, the audience won't laugh with you, which is absolutely untrue. And why did you break that? Was that something you discussed with Steve Coogan? Like, did you know what your character was going to be like going into that when you played Sophie? No. I auditioned and I was supposed to be up in Edinburgh. I was like, oh gosh, I really want this

job, but I can't do it because I'm supposed to be up in Edinburgh. And then I remember just thinking in the improv, the funniest thing to do here is to laugh and leave. But if I laugh and leave, I won't be in it very much. Oh, that could work really well. So indeed that's what I did. I laughed and left and they, because they had been auditioning very attractive women to play Sophie, like lots of model types. Because they were looking for someone who'd make Alan feel very, very awkward. And so there'd been, I wonder if this might have been Steve's idea to get a lot of incredibly beautiful women on set to make Alan feel really weird. Yeah, turned out that laughing at him, obviously, was disappointing me for Steve was, yeah, it was a happy experience.

That was a very happy experience and he's, I mean, he just is a genius Steve. He's, he's, I do think he's the greatest, uh, and Partridge is the greatest character. Yeah. We've, you know, our generation has seen. It's so, he's so multi-layered. is so brilliant the way he inhabits the character and also is completely not acting. So it's the mix between the two things.

And nothing, there's never a bum note. The choices are always interesting. And with, I mean, the new writers are really good as well. But I do think, you know, with Armando and Pete Bainham writing Partridge was just an absolutely glorious. I'm enjoying new partridge though with them what was it this isid aisle where yes partridge is now also the producer so you can see that partridge is involved in the shot choices so that's a whole new layer of partridge to enjoy you know

there'll be a lingering shot over the steering wheel the features of the car that Alan particularly particularly likes yeah listen you know I want to talk so I know you want to head off soon and I want to talk bit about your family because I watched your documentary about your son Ollie and I just loved it Sally it was a few years ago wasn't it and yeah 2016 it really changed my view if I'm honest well that's great we just wanted to have a debate because there hadn't been many debate what it is in case people didn't see it at the time it is made a documentary called World Without Down syndrome which was examining or looking at

at the arrival of the new DNA screens for various different abnormalities, should we say, differences prenatally before the termination window. And I wanted to point out that there had never been an ethical debate about Down syndrome. So Dan syndrome was testing for Dan, screening for Dan syndrome was first introduced. when lives were short and presumably full of suffering. And then without there having been any acknowledgement that the motivation for screening had changed because now lives are long

and we know that people with Down syndrome don't suffer from the Down syndrome. I mean, you know, may have additional complications or, you know, there's obviously the whole social thing to, you know, being excluded or hate crime or whatever, but... And you are at... Yeah, and now we screen because we see them as a burden. You said...

An expensive burden. And so that is a massive ethical shift that has gone totally unacknowledged. And so, I mean, I think it is worth, you know, it was worth having a conversation. And we did, you know, we did provoke a conversation, which was good. I think also, I was just really touched

seeing your relationship with Ollie because I think it was useful and it was helpful as well. You know, you were talking about the things people have said to you perhaps not meaning to be hurtful in any way

but it's just you said someone had said did you know? Didn't you know? Didn't you know, yeah, didn't you know? That's the big thing, didn't you know. did you know is sort of curiosity still not that tactful but didn't you know

is the presumption that you ought to and I think Richard Hawkins Richard Dawkins said you know we have a moral imperative to get rid of the faulty fetus and get a better one and he retracted that

was sort of there was a public conversation about it and he retracted that but that is a very common perception and you know unless you examine it and what it doesn't take you don't have to dig very far to see why that's a massive problem and one of the things will be we'll all be disabled yeah hopefully if we live long enough yeah and so disability it isn't just a you know isn't just something that happens before birth so dance

syndrome is a very tiny um almost symbol of disability because I don't think it makes, we're such a tiny population, doesn't make any actual difference to anyone except the Down syndrome community whether or not Down syndrome is eliminated. But you don't eliminate disability. Yeah and actually to be honest I I work with a girl and she was probably one of the most compassionate empathetic women I've ever met. There was something unique about her, sort of ability to care. And she told me her brother had Down syndrome. And there was a connection I made, having seen your documentary, that I thought,

I'm sure you evolved to be that person. I think that's completely right. Do you see that in your kids, Sally? Well, at the moment, I think at the moment between 8 and 12 is not a great age. So at the moment, they're just being terribly ablest. and horrible. But I did obsessively go looking for siblings of people with disabilities when I had my second one. Yeah. Because I was so worried about it. And really? Yeah. And after about the 60th incredibly well balanced, you know kind, undamaged, useful, self-motivated. I mean,

The only difference between siblings of people with Down syndrome and without is that they're ever so slightly more likely to go into the caring profession. So they're slightly more likely to be therapists, doctors, nurses. Yeah. And so you could say, oh gosh, you know, they're tied up in serving for the rest of their lives and not having fun. Or you could say they're slightly more use. This is one mechanism for making people more useful. to society. Yeah.

It's from an early age, you know, helping to understand the other and other. And also, just that idea of, you know, it was interesting that idea of the assumption of perfection, you know, all the time, that that should be our aspiration. And I don't know, it's, it's just... Well, I also just think we've got it, and I really think we've got it wrong in that, There is, we were talking earlier, aren't we, about adversity inoculation. Yeah. Where, so there's this research done on people who lose legs. Because I mean most disability is acquired disability, so you can't test it in the wing.

So somebody who loses the use of their legs. Oops. Sorry. Hello, doggy. Hi there. Nearly finishing just coming up, Mort Lake Brewery. All right. Bye.

Sorry. You've got such a busy life. No, well, I don't normally. Normally, which is one thing a day. No, but I'm you a single mum, I think that's incredible. I really do. I don't think my kids would say that. I'm sure they won't.

They get, mummy's confusing cooking with fish fingers and then a bit of stir on the side, like, what is this, mum? Yeah, well, you know, enjoy. Oh, I need to ask you what I ask everyone on this. Do you have therapy, Sally? Yes. Or have you had it? I have had therapy, yes.

And did you find it helpful? Very. Very. Yeah, it's interesting. Very, very helpful. I've had different, a couple of different, actually only two therapists. Yeah. And one was French and very demure and had a really beautiful flat, and I was caught.

Lots of art that I wanted. Yeah. And she didn't say very much and took a lot of notes. But that was... helpful in terms of because I just had never been brought up to talk about myself at all. Really? And I didn't really know how to understand. I don't know. Yeah, it was helpful. It was really helpful. Just let their pressure out. And now I see a comedian's wife. And she's absolutely brilliant. Oh, I want to see the comedian's wife. Yeah, she's fantastic. She used to be a comedy

writer and she's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, really brilliant. but I haven't seen it for it over lockdown. Do you think that's something that's sort of the performers' tax, if you like, is the sometimes, well, everyone suffers from mental health things at some point, or you'll have down days. But are you sort of sunshine in showers, or are you fairly regulated with your moods? I'm not so much anymore.

I think I was like that when I was younger. But I just do think I've got quite a lot on my plate. I've had quite, you know, you've got to, when you're trying to process, a divorce and not involve the kids. That's so tough. And, you know, there are lots of stresses with three boys when you're a mum. Yeah. And, you know, there's lots of issues when someone dumps you for a Russian yoga teacher.

There's things to think through, like, will I ever do yoga again? And am I past it? Should I get Botox? Or should I deliberately not get Botox? And do you know what I mean? There's just, and it's just, also when you're a mum, you just feel really aware when you have slightly traumatic events, you just need to say the same thing over and over again.

I just don't want to say exactly the same thing over and over and over again to my friends. And I was starting to talk to my little son about things. so you know I shouldn't talk to him about. So it's just good to just, it's like, you know, Midas has ass his ears. Just to go and dig a hole in the field and shout. I hate yoga! And all yogis, death to the yogis. And then you can come back in.

You see me because of Australians, bloody yogis. Bloody yoga. Your bullshit yogi. Do you, you seem quite, you seem very, very. well adjusted though Sally and I sound surprised because most pretty kind of you I don't know why I think I get the sense that you're quite you're not a people pleaser but you're a kind person but not a people please and there is a difference it's interesting just little things like I

notice if I say something to say no it wasn't that and I like people that do that because it I don't know it gives me hints that they're authentic and you strike me as very authentic well that's another one of those compliments makes feel like my skin's on fire. If you mention Philip Seymour Hoffman again, I'll be all right. Well, I was saying to Philip Seymour Hoffman. He did, of course, kill himself. So that was, I was so struck by something he said about acting.

He said it's like trying to lug, a heavy suitcase, after a flight of steps using just your mind. And I really, it's not very often I take a job that seriously. But when I do take it very seriously and try to do it really properly, that is exactly what it's like. You're trying to run you and well-behaved you at work and the character

and the actor's relationship with the camera. You're trying to run all these different things at once and sometimes it's just so... your head feels so heavy, you just want to lie down. What do you hope people will say about you when you leave the room? And what do you fear they'll say? Well, I hope they'll say

make them feel better about things. like make them feel difficult things aren't so difficult things are surmountable and uh Teddy Teddy Teddy Teddy Teddy what you eating Teddy no listen he's got pancreatitis you just got to stop it Ted goodness me we don't know where that bread came from yeah it looks white I'm just saying it doesn't look like it's the organic bakery salad it doesn't like precisely the kind of thing And what do you... Yeah, and what do I hope they won't say? Well, I suppose it matters to me that they think I'm authentic,

so I would really hope they wouldn't say that I was... That I didn't mean what I said or that I wasn't... Because I, you know, I fear about being unreliable because I am slightly unreliable. And my... My, you know, I've got a lot on and I... hate post offices and diaries.

I really hate them. Why? Is that such a living abroad? I don't know what it is. No, well mine is ADHD. I have got that. I have got ADHD? I've got diagnosed as an adult. Some people say to me, oh, do you just use that as an excuse for being disorganised? I wonder if I've got that. There's a lot of actors who do. Tell me what you're doing.

Ronnie Ancona and I have set up a film company called Captain Dolly that is powered by a distribution production company called Film Soho. And we're hoping to do lots and lots of different things. But we are initial, the thing that got us started, we got asked to write a dog movie about the Palm Dog. So to research it, we went to Cannes. The Palm Dog is the premier acting prize for canine actors, as you probably know. We went and presented the award to Crenton Tarantino last year on behalf of Palm Dog, Toby Rose's Palm Dog.

And, yeah, he whistled and we came running. And yeah, and we're feeling quite stuck, as the honest truth. I mean, we've always wanted to have our own production company. We haven't always dreamt of doing a dog movie. What's interesting is when you talk to guys about it, they go, oh, brilliant, you're going to have a dog talking. We're like, no, we're not going to have a dog talking. None of the women say that. They go, oh, brilliant.

The relationship with the dog. And they go, oh, pretty. You're going to hear what the dog has to say? No, no. Ronnie does keep asking attractive men in their 40s to be in it. I told her she's got to stop. We don't have any more roles. Teddy, Lottie.

Lottie. Come on. Lottie. Sally, I'm going to let you go to your meeting. I've loved our walk. I can't hug you because of COVID. But... Lovely to meet you.

Thank you so much. and hope to meet you again with Raymond. Can I give your dogs a hug, though? Do you? Teddy, Lottie. Say bye? Say bye. Good ducks. Good boy. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that, and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.