Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Sam Ryder (Part One)

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

This week Emily and Ray take a stroll with the brilliant Sam Ryder, whose soaring voice and infectious positivity have made him one of the most loved artists in the country.Emily caught up with Sam at his Sussex rehearsal space, where he and his band were preparing for their upcoming Wembley Arena show. They talked about his incredible journey, from years spent gigging in pubs and weddings while working as a builder, to his breakout during the pandemic and his unforgettable performance at the 2022 Eurovision Song Contest.Sam also opens up about life after Eurovision, and his decision to go independent with his stunning new album Heartland, an intimate, deeply personal collection of songs that chart the highs and lows of the past year.It’s an inspiring and joy-filled chat with one of the warmest, most genuine people you could hope to meet (and yes, Ray fell completely in love with him).Head to Sam's website for tickets and to listen to Heartland.Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Will NicholsMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

But try and sing, I'll protect you from the hooded claw. Keep the vampires from your door as someone's doing their first dance. I was just thinking, this is weird. This week on Walking the Dog, Ray and I took a stroll with a man we've been dying to meet for so long. The very wonderful Sam Ryder. Sam spends a lot of time in Nashville these days, but Ray is too lazy to get his pet passport together. So we headed over instead to Sam's Sussex rehearsal space,

where he and his band were rehearsing for their upcoming Wembley arena gig. Sam's story is pretty well known by now. He rose to fame from his pandemic TikTok videos, which showcased his amazing voice and then won over the entire nation after his jaw-droppingly good performance at the 2022 Eurovision Song Contest. But prior to this,

he'd put in years of graft doing endless weddings and pub gigs whilst working as a builder to support him, himself. So I was fascinated to hear about Sam's origin story to discover where his work ethic and passion for music all came from. We also talked about the slightly overwhelming nature of his post-Eurovision success and why he's stepping away from that chapter in his life and has just released a brand new album as an independent artist called Heartland. And it honestly blew me away. It's so intimate and personal. You genuinely feel like you're going on a journey with Sam through the last year of his life. I told Sam it reminded me of Billy Joel, by the way,

and he was so thrilled. He serenaded Ray with a Billy Joel song. You absolutely need to see this, by the way. It's on my Instagram at Emily Rebecca Dean, and you also need to go and see Sam live. He's at Wembley Arena on November 6th. So get your tickets now and download his brilliant album, Heartland. For more details, go to sam-hyferrider.com.

As you may have gathered by now, Ray and I absolutely adored this man. I won't go on about his lovely warm, positive energy because frankly, everyone says that about Sam, and it gets old. But I will tell you this. Maya Angelou once said that you can judge someone from how they handle three things, a rainy day, lost luggage, and tangled Christmas tree lights. I would like to add a fourth thing to this list, which is how they handle a Shih Tzu crashing into their Wembley Arena rehearsal,

space like an unhinged Tasmanian devil. Sam's reaction was to look into Raymond's eyes and say, I absolutely love him. No notes. That is all. I really hope you enjoy part one of our chat. Here's Sam and Raymond. So I am so excited, Sam, Ryder. You don't understand. I often say that to people and I don't always mean it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do say things like that. I really mean it in this case. By the way, thanks so much for coming down to our neck of the woods. Yeah, we're in. For practising.

I say our necker, I don't live here. I live like three hours away. Well, you live a lot longer than that way, don't you? Well, yeah, now. Yeah, in Nashville. Oh, hello, there's some horses. I'm carrying my dog, if you think that's sensible. Because we're on a sort of farm area.

Hello. So, Sam, that was a lady here. owns the farm near where your rehearsal studios are. I've never, I've never even walked out beyond this. This is like Lion King for me now. I've rehearsed at Pete's rehearsal rooms often. But I've never left really the vicinity of car park. So everything from here on out is a total mystery.

And there's a tractor. There's all sorts going on. Well, we're going to chat about the reason why you're... This is lovely. It's nice. We're going to chat about the reason why you're rehearsing, because I believe you have a bit of a little bit of a lot of you. of an important gig coming up. Yes, we do.

But I'm so happy to be here and we're going to talk lots about your new album which I've had a sneak preview of and I love it, Sam. Mate, thank you so much. I forget that it's an actual thing that people can listen to. Like when I meet people like yourselves and chatting and having sort of conversations and interviews about it, I forget that they've actually, by a choice, listen to it ahead of the chat. And I forget that it's an actual thing.

and yeah when I hear something like that it means a lot to me so thank you so much well I believe in getting that out the way because I think otherwise you're talking for half an hour and you're thinking well never mind all this bullshit what does she think of it what if she's going to say look up I've got some bad news but I want to start a bit because this is called walking the dog and there is a dog theme in it I've turned up with Ray you seem to instantly love Ray Sam oh I love dogs I just love animals. I love, I've, I spent a lot of years in my life not really understanding people's love for cats.

I now love cats. I think they're great. I understand the genre and what they sort of, what they provide. I think that's a bit of an exclusive. Sam Ryder understands the cat genre. I do, I get it. Yeah. And what about, what's your history with pets?

Do you and Lois have animals at the moment? Because you're moving around a lot, aren't you? Yeah. And even when I'm not, I don't know. when I was a kid, my parents would never have a dog. We wanted so much to have a dog. But they really instilled in me like the responsibility of what it would take to have a dog. So I'm glad actually I didn't have one because we as a family got to be so kind of independent and come and go and travel and stuff like that.

There's things that you gain for sure by having a dog and there's things that you can't do because you have responsibilities like a child basically. I know one day in my life when the time's right that Lois and I would love a couple of dogs Do you think so? What do you think you'd get what time? Oh 100%. It'd be a golden retriever and a little poodle. Little duo. Because I've heard this a lot, this golden retriever energy. I've got to say, I'm going to disagree with these people.

Okay. Because I know a bit about dogs. Yeah. And I think golden retrievers, they're bouncy, they're bouncy, they're exuberant, all those wonderful things. But you strike me as someone who's also very thoughtful and quite intelligent. And I don't think that's all there is to you,

the bouncy exuberance. So I'm going to go border collie. Oh, that's my... I think that I was on just like doom scrolling the other day and it was like, pair the dogs to your month of birth. And Golden Retriever was, was May and I was gutted because I was born in June and I swip again it was border collie. So yeah, so you are. You're a dog person.

Because also border collies have a very intense focus and work ethic. Yeah. Why they're brilliant sheep dogs and I think that's also two of you. Hello again. Hello. Little doggy. Oh, sweet. So yeah.

Well, maybe a lab a golden retriever border collie cross will give you. Yeah. Okay. That's nice. And so growing up. This is in Essex, isn't it? Yeah. With your dad and your mum.

Your dad's a carpenter. Yep. And I was his apprentice. Sound like a Jedi there. I was his apprentice, a little buddy one for, well, I started. My first job essentially was I had a paper round. And then... Adorn.

What, Essex Chronicle? No, it was even small. It was the Moulden paper. Oh. So what would that? Oh, God, how can I not remember what the name was? We'll call it the mould and paper. I like that. Yeah. They're lucky to be getting a mention, Sam. But it was a tiny little thing.

And my paper round would only extend really to the hill before the roundabout at Tesco's. So it wasn't far. I could probably get the whole thing done in. That's a tractor, by the way, if you can hear that noise. So this proves we genuinely are in the country. And Sam hasn't said, let's do it in my penthouse. in park lane number 10. So I sound all down to her. He really is in the country.

Yeah, go on. Yeah, so it was just kind of a situation where yeah, it will take me maybe like 30 minutes, 45 minutes to do the paper round. And then I'd literally also have to do the accounting for that.

So I'd have to collect everyone's money. I remember like counting it out on my floor, making sure it was all accounted for, separating the tips out. And like you got, sometimes you've got like fiber in tips. It was amazing. There was one customer. I still remember his house.

Because he still lives where my parents, nearby where my parents are. And are they still there, your face? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same house I grew up in. And every now and then, he'd give a 20 pound tip. And like, when you're that age, it's massive. And I would just, like, be buzzing. So I collect it all up, do that.

But then it got to the point I sort of wanted. more money essentially. You know, when you're older and you, you know, you want to go out and do other things. So I applied to work at Tesco because that would be like the jewel in the crown place to work if you're around where near I was from because they would give, they would pay decently and you'd get good hours and stuff like that. So you did have, but I didn't get it. Oh, you got knocked back. I got knocked back and then I go where everyone that got knocked back from Tesco's went to, which was McDonald's, which was opposite.

And I got in there. And I'm working with you. Do you imagine if that manager's listening to this who interviewed you? That's like the person who turned down the Beatles. The person who's not Max and Ryder. It's basically the same thing. It is in my world. So yeah, I then worked in McDonald's for a while, worked on the drive-thru.

And then I got in, it was always a little bit rough around the drive-thru at night on the weekends. Because they always, I don't know what it's like now. But back then it was because it was all mad. So people would come around almost to just like mess with whoever was working on the drive-thru. And if it wasn't me, it was my pals who I worked with. But there was some, like one time I almost got a fight with people that came around the drive-thru. And my parents heard about it and they were like, right, no way. Because I also had to cycle to and from.

So you get people to wait in the car park for you, you know? Really? And I'd be cycling back and I was cycling as fast as right away. Well, you have voice you hear on the microphone then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then they'd come around to the window and you'd actually chat to them and stuff like that. So you obviously had a real work ethic, didn't you? Very strong work ethic. And it was you and you have, am I like thinking you have a sibling? Yes, got two sisters. Yeah, you have two sisters. So was that something that your parents, I want to say, Keith? Keith and Geraldine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Love those names. Yeah, lovely names.

Did Keith and Geraldine, was that, were they strict or what was their sort of? vibe at home? No, like in terms, I remember certain strictnesses. Like, there was no junk food in the house ever. Never, like, I was never raised on fizzy drinks. So I'm trying to, I know this is so, like, minute, but I feel like everyone listening can relate to certain things like this in their childhood. Like, so basic, but, like, what stuff was in the cupboards, I think, tells a lot about this sort of childhood that you had. So my mum, like, God bless her, she's not very good cook. Can I just say, Mrs. Ryder, if you're listening, I'm so sorry.

No, but she kind of, I always like mess away because I'm a worst cook. And that's saying something. But yeah, we never had like Sky TV and stuff like that. So we kind of, and we were late to get a computer too and the internet. That's probably a good thing. It was very good. Actually, I'm buzzing. And I remember like being so annoyed in my.

adolescence that we didn't live anywhere near like a big town, like Chelmsford or something. So I had to get the bus to Chelmsford. But there was only one bus that would pass by my house to get me there. And it would sort of be one of those ones that turns up when it wants. And you'd never know. Sometimes it'd be like 10 minutes early. And you'd be running down the road to get it, just seeing it fly by and knowing there's not another one until it comes back in the evening. I remember that bus.

And, yeah, man, it's crazy. but you'd be so and the same if you wanted to get to Colchester you'd have to do a like 45 minute walk to get to the bus stop that would take you there but that bus ran a lot and I remember me and my sister's giving my parents so much grief

like when can we move we want to get out of here we're missing out on everything when there was like a snow day all my friends in school they'd all be able to hang out because they all lived in Wittham or Chalmersford and they'd all meet up in the park and then I'd just be stuck at home

totally on my own but you know what when I turn And in my early 20s, I fell in love with it. Did you? Yeah, I was so happy that they never caved to the pressure that we put on them to, like, move somewhere else. Because I just, it was like the dream upbringing. It was like proper Huckleberry Finn, like all the neighbours are friends. We'd all like go swimming together in the river, jump off the bridge.

I also think, and it's interesting you should say that, Sam, because I grew up in London. And what I think can be tricky about London is there's not, you know, if you have a unique talent like you do, that probably makes you stand out of it. And you're probably the only person in that town who can, for example, sing like you or looks like you. Yeah, yeah. Whereas the interesting thing with London, when you're in this huge urban environment like this, there is a tendency sometimes to think, well, what chance of I go? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas you know away, kind of. You almost know too much.

I think there's a great thing about thinking, I'm going to come to London and give this a go. Change my stars. It's like the night's tale, right? Like that film, like, go to London, change your start. But like, I still get that feeling when I go to Nashville and I walk down Music Row or when I go to L.A. and I walk down to Hollywood Boulevard and see the Walk of Fame.

That's a tractor. That's another one. Hello tractor. Oh, is it a train as well? Oh, is it a train? Yeah. We should stay as well. In case you hear planes.

Yeah, we're right under the Gatwick. We are near Gatwick Airport. I feel comfortable saying that because Sam won't be here by the time this comes out. This isn't a GPS service. To me, I don't even know where I. I've never been here where we are now, but it's lovely. Look at Ray through the fields. It's got the whole field to himself.

He looks so happy. Yeah, I know. Just totally his own little pace. Sammy's very drawn to you. Why do you think that is? Sweet. I love shitsies. Do you?

Yeah. I've got, my friend's got two, one called Birdie and one called Pony. Birdie's getting old now. But I remember when she first got her, I'd hold her and I'd like a machine gun and just like run around the house like this. And she loved it. She still wants, like, every time I go to the house now, she like jumps in my arms and wants to be like the machine gun. And Pony is just mental. but like she's young.

You know, they've got a lovely temperament. They do. They're so fun. Yeah, but you know you've got a lovely temperament. I think that's why you get on. I'm sorry I've compared you to my dog. Mate, I'll take that. I'll take it. But I love him very much.

So Sam, was it, with a voice like yours, obviously, it's not like, oh, that guy can sing a bit. He can sing la, la, la. You know, you have an extraordinary voice. And I wonder, when did you realise that? I mean, were you aware as a kid? Were you thinking, oh, this seems quite powerful? Yeah, well, I remember being rubbish for a long time, actually,

in terms of, like, trying and copying singers that I loved and admired. Like, first memories singing are just like Freddie Mercury in the back of my mum's. I think it, I found out the other day, I've always been saying it was a red Volvo, but it wasn't. It was a voctal cavalier. A red voctal cavalier, because I spoke to my dad the other day about it. He says, I heard your interview chatting about this, and that's not the car we had. But, yeah, it was a cavalier.

Keith, you put him straight. So, and that was Freddie Mercury living on my own. Like that bit, I'd always sing along to that as a kid. Do you know, when Sam did that, I mean, this is Nat, your public sister. She's used to it. You just did that, and she was like, oh, yeah, it's a Tuesday. Sam's doing this thing again. I actually got like a chill when you sound.

I can't help it, Sam. Do people often get like that when you sing? If they do, they don't tell me, which is good, because you don't want to get a big head. But yeah, and then I grew up to the point where I was wanting to see bands and people would bring in burnt CDs and stuff like that to school and share them. And some of those first ones for me were like Sun 41 Green Day, Slipknot. And so...

You loved Sum 41, didn't you? Yeah, big fan, big fan. And I could tell you, like, one of the first, like, albums that got me into metal was I had made and I found that on a bus. I've told that story so many times, so I can save you that. Okay. But I'll give you some ones that I haven't told. But Sun 41 was the first gig that I went to with my friend Dan and, I won't say second name

just in case he doesn't want to be pulled up, but me and him have a matching scar that our forehead. You can see that here. I've just noticed that. Harry Potter. Yeah, yeah. So me and Dan were playing Bulldog in school when we were seven years old and we ran into each other and both our head split open. And you see the size of that scar. Imagine that on a seven year

old's head. So it's crazy. Your parents must have been so worried. And I remember sat in Brumfield Hospital getting it glued together. And they were coming around because we just thought it would be stitches and they said we've got this new glue and I remember it being in this blue bottle. And And then both of us walking around school with like, we look like Toad from Mario, you know, with big head.

Like just in the top half of your head. Eyebrows up, it's massive because you have a big bandage around it. I should have painted red spots on it, actually. Isn't it funny, but it's interesting with scars like that. You know, I know there's more of a tendency now. People, you know, you think, oh, I can get this removed. I'm here grok. But you know what?

Something I kind of love about that is that that childhood memory that takes you back. it's like who you were and who you still are. It's a connection to your past, I always think. Funny enough, you know, the amount of times I've had people, like, if I've, I don't know, been, because this is going to make you sound such a diva, but when, I can't wait. I quite like a massage or a facial or something like that.

Like, you've got, if you're a singer and you're singing constantly, you need to really make sure you rest. And to be honest, that's the kind of the only boozy, I've really let into my life. Everything in my life is the same. Same car, same house. Everything sits day one. Yeah, yeah, everything.

I don't really change that stuff. But one thing I do is like take care of just everything that will help me keep my voice. And that's everything. Diet, like gym, supplements, all that sort of sleep, all that sort of stuff. But the amount of times people have offered to help get rid of it. And I'm like, no, no, no, fine, keep it. What sort of people saying, hi, I'm a cosmetic surgeon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can fade that out if you want.

And I'm like, I don't really want to. No, it's who you. It's who you are. I've got a scar on my knee from when we lived in Australia briefly when I was a kid. And I said, you know, every time I look at it, it brings back a really lovely memory from my childhood. Yeah. You think, like, my sister's sadly not all with us, but she was around then, and I think about looking at the swargo, that's terrible.

And it makes me laugh. And I think, actually, no, you, that's the tapestry of who you are. I think they're badass. I'm covered in them. I've got massive ones on my shoulders from having shoulder surgery. I've got a bunch on my knees from, yeah. What we love about you is you're sort of, you're an interesting blend because I think you're very in touch with your femininity.

And that probably comes from Lois. We'll get on to her, obsessed with her, very invested in your relationship. And. But I. I think also you're very confident in your masculinity as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? I don't know if that's the ethics thing.

It's quite grounding and I think it's quite a healthy combination. Yeah, I think it's probably, I'm probably just a mama's boy. You know what I mean? That's probably where it stems from. And I am, like, definitely, self-admittedly. But then I was, like, went to work with my dad and most of that work in my, youth was on building sites around a quite classic masculine backdrop, which was great, by the way. Was it?

Yeah, absolutely love it. I think there's so much to celebrate in both those sides of the spectrum, right? Like, I think all of one thing isn't right. It doesn't balance things. I've been in environments where it's way too masculine, and that was kind of actually when I was in a major label situation. like music into... This is Coast Eurovision. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I guess from 2021, really, onwards, you do notice the difference and we really try hard now on the team to... I think actually it is... We counted everything the other day, like everyone who works on this project. And there's quite a lot of people and it's predominantly female now.

Love this. It feels so much better. And even on sets, when we're shooting stuff, I way prefer it to be like at least an even sort of even approach. Why do you like working with? That even it would be like a few women on set behind camera and stuff like that. That you have to fight for it. And why do you like working with women?

What do you think they bring? I like, I think it balances out the temperament. I definitely have a certain. And I'm not saying that feminine energy is all just appeasing energy, because that would be disrespectful. It's not that at all. It's more patience and measured, like, approaches. It's almost like we have to multitask all the time.

I find the masculine approach is also super important. Sometimes you need to have the energy of, right, we're kicking down doors to make something happen. But so many times I've had that energy. it hasn't actually helped. You think that through this big, balshy approach, you're moving forward or actually you're not, you're kind of distancing yourself.

And your energy is just off. And yeah, I just, I know as an artist and someone working in this industry, I way prefer working with women. So it's really interesting. You've talked about how, you know, you did a bit of carpentry, with your dad and you were always though pretty determined to sing and you were in various bands some of which took you to Canada and America and this was as a young man was it yes yeah yeah and then

you ended up and I kind of love this Sam because you ended up doing the sort of pub circuit and weddings and all this kind of stuff still doing the carpentry and stuff like that on the side, were you? Or were you running? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I kept on, that was the amazing thing about working my dad. I could, like, and I was in a real privileged position here because he, it wasn't easy, let me tell you,

because my dad wasn't just kind of like, yeah, go whenever you can and come back whenever you want. It wasn't that because he needed help and he needed some kind of level of consistency. But to a degree, it was definitely easier. deny then working for like an anonymous boss who will just look at your holiday days and be like well no you've got none left because that's the end of conversation you know my dad knew that i had this goal and ambition to um to like forge a career for myself out of music so he'd do anything he could

to help you have no connections to the music world um and how did my mom i didn't know anything about any kind of music college or drama school or stage schools or brit schools i had no idea these things even existed. I lived out in the country and it was all kind of just, I thought the only way you make it in the music business is the way that I made and did. And you play all the clubs on the East End, wait for someone to walk in that has some kind of power. And they like what they hear, they sign you and then that's it. You tour the world. That's what I thought as a kid. It was very naive. Well, Sam, although... It's in the time to realize that it wasn't the case. Although what you just described, interestingly,

does sum up how different things are now. Yeah. Because in a way, you were utterly dependent on being discovered by a major label. Yeah. And you've been partly instrumental in helping people realize, well, no, maybe that's not the case.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when all this was going on and you're racking up your 10,000 hours essentially, not knowing it at the time, were you thinking, well, you know what, if I get to 40 and I'm doing a bit of carpentry still or working on the construction, and I've got three weddings this week, I'll be happy.

Well, forget 40, it was 25. When I remember that was the age, and I guess that age changes with the culture. But when I was like starting out in music, say, like just leaving school, the culture was, and this is amongst the years, youth and parents and beyond, the sort of the unwritten rule was if you don't make it by 25, you're not going to make it, forget about it and move on.

So I don't know if you ever kind of knew about that, but that was very much a thing. I remember all my friends talking about that. Like, you know, 25 is deadline. Really? Yep. And I never subscribed to that because I just knew that I'd be doing it regardless. But what I did do is kind of,

I mean, it comes a time that you just, you don't want to get left behind completely on life's journey. Do you know what I mean? So you can be a struggling and suffering artist for ages, earning nothing, playing to no one. But if you keep doing that and just because you're telling yourself, this is the pure way, then it may well be, in your opinion, the pure way, but you're not going to do it long because there's just not enough nutrient. like there's not enough nutrients going in to keep it going and keep it afloat so what I did was start singing at people's weddings because I knew that I could actually get paid to do that and I was still doing the thing I loved so there's a great analogy here with surfing because back then it felt

very much in the scene like selling out to do that to go and play like money is always the dirty word especially coming up in punk ethos that I was and and in the sort of all alternative scene and metal scene, like, you never want to sell out. Like, that's kind of the cardinal sin. And singing at people's weddings very much to some people felt like selling out. But there's a really good surfing analogy, which I'm going to share with you now. There's a, my favorite surfer is a guy called Jerry Lopez. And not just because of his ability and his style and he surfs. That is his mental approach to surfing and like surfing is everything. But he says that back in, I'm not sure on the exact time scale here,

but essentially when surfing was moving to bigger waves, you can't at that point paddle onto them because they're too powerful, they're just passed underneath you. So you've probably seen like the footage from Nazaree in Portugal, one of those massive waves, right? A human being can't paddle with their own power to get onto that wave. You need to be towed onto it with a jet ski. And there was purists among the surfing community,

said that that isn't surfing because you have to paddle under your own steam and so they got stuck just surfing like surfing essentially for them topped out they couldn't catch bigger waves because they wouldn't allow themselves because for them it was selling out whereas jerry lopez and and all they're like the famous big wave surfers they're they want to keep blazing trails and pushing the limits of what surfing is so they would tow themselves onto these massive waves by a jet ski. They're sending us in this direction. And because of that, they got to push the boundaries of surfing and create a whole new sort of life to it. And Jerry Lopez would say, a lot of people tell me that this isn't surfing. And there's a big picture of him on this massive wave,

like classic stance. And then he says, it looks like surfing to me. So for me, that was wedding singing. Like, I was closed my eyes. I had a mic in my hand. I was singing. And in my opinion, I was singing the best I'd ever sang in my life because I was learning that singing was coming from a different place. It wasn't to try and be cool or impress people like by playing in an underground club in Russia and then sharing it to all my old school friends on Facebook and MySpace and stuff like that because we all carry the same baggage when we leave school. We all want to show everyone that didn't believe in us at school that we're going to make it, right? Was that your baggage when you left school?

Yeah, 100%. I think that we all carry that baggage. in a certain way. Yeah, you're right. Because school is so important to us. We all want to, like, realize the dreams that we set out in school. Because you don't have contact a lot

with those people anymore, you just, I'll show them. I'll show them. It's not healthy and it's not good, but we all have it in common, I think. So I was chasing the old show them ethos. But you weren't ever bullied or were you popular at school? No, no, I went through my fair share of bullying,

but it was kind of, I also realised as I was kind of, like, under that bullying, I was seeing other people that had it way worse. So in primary school, it was worse, I would say, because I don't think I really kind of stood up for myself enough. But in secondary school, I found my kind of like my buddies, other people that were into the same things that would kind of class them as not cool. i.e. music or, you know, like snowboarding, skateboarding and stuff like that, which by the way, it's so cool now. But back then it wasn't. But that was like, there's a level of people, you know,

there's a strata when it comes to bullying. And the IT guys, the guys are into computers, they got it way worse than the people that were into skateboarding. So I consider myself lucky. And what I love is that now the IT guys, all the tech pros take it and they're all employing the bullies. because they had the old show them ethos and they had it most potent because they're at the bottom of the park. I'm obsessed by those guys. I think go you, yeah.

You were treated like absolute shit and now you're signing those people's paychecks. I know, it's crazy, isn't it? So I love the idea of Little Sam and I love who Little Sam grew into because I wonder if sometimes, I know it's the sort of slightly cliched you know, the artist chasing the dream.

Yeah, yeah. But I really think working in doing all those weddings having to do the occasional pub with one man and a doberman you know I do think that builds you catch a lot of flack as well so when you're starting out like you know there's people you're playing you know you're playing town centres yeah on weekend nights everyone's levered and you're playing songs I've got my hair like down to basically my hips like you're people are going to shout stuff and it just gives you a thick skin you've got to take it um and just kind of laugh with it a little bit.

And then, yeah, you don't take things so personally. There's always a line and you can feel it when it gets crossed. But ultimately, when I look back, like a lot of those jibes, you kind of just, you take on the chin, have a laugh, and carry on doing what you're doing. And that's the best way. And did you think that gave you, as well as performing hours that you were racking up? Yeah.

Which would come in very handy. Yes. So things like Lang Wembley Arena, which I can't do. You were also learning resilience, which I wonder if somehow, you know, you can have the best voice in the world, but I wonder if resilience and tenacity and discipline, self-discipline and all that stuff, those things are almost more important in a way. Yeah, I would agree with you.

Particularly. We're going to have to pick him up, Sam. Look, he's too small for the muddy tracks. Sam has just done the most adorable. thing. I mean, I almost don't want to tell you this, because if you're a Sam Ryder fan, I don't think you'll be able to live. There was a muddy track and Sam leapt over there and just pitched Ray up. Didn't have to be asked, even though he's covered in mud. I love that. I think that tells you a lot about someone who does that. Have you ever thought of dressing Ray up as a member of Kiss for

Halloween and just doing some little white sort of eye patches? That's what you'd need. I have now. It's there. It's happy. A little studded collar. I have three weeks to get planning. Oh yes, quite soon, right? Yeah. Send me a picture of that. Oh, I will, Sam. So. But yeah, resilience, confidence, all that sort of stuff. And you know what? When, and it's realizing that those are in, like, you have a wealth in terms of your supply of those values when you're young. You have a delusion. And it's so powerful. You do. Like, you do. Like, you have a wealth. You do. Like, you, when I remember when I was a kid, if I would have actually heard my voice, now that I'm older and I can remember what my voice actually sounded like back then, I had no right to be as

confident as I was. Do you know what I mean? It was, it was awful. I was spending most of my time trying to just copy Derek Wibley from Sun 41, but I was so deluded that it gave me this false sense of confidence. And if you kind of subscribe to the idea that there are infinite realities going on all at the same time, and all you have to do is match your energy to the, reality that you want to feel existing, then that's the magic of being diluted. Because if you're just living in the energy that it will happen for you and that of course you're going to make it, of course life will turn out all right, then of course it will. It's only when you get older and you start losing that confidence.

It's kind of like a rocket. It needs a mad amount of fuel to break through the atmosphere. to get into orbit. Past that point, it's kind of just little light frosts here and there to put it on course. So you kind of, you do run out if you're not careful with that pure delusion. Yeah. When you're young. But I say when you're, if you're not careful, actually I think it's a good thing to run out of that delusion because a deluded adult is insufferable, right?

But a deluded child, everyone is just like, oh, that's so sweet. Go you. I'm rooting for you. You know, no one's kind of like trying to stomp on the dream of a child. and if you are, you're a psychopath. So they get away with having that delusion. So you've got to use it. Because you've got nothing else really at that age.

Like, I didn't. There's no, like, financial leg up. Yeah. Or experience. Like, you're too young to have really done anything. And you haven't had knockbacks and setbacks. And you're absolutely right. Because as well as racking up experience,

you also, there gets to a point where you have 10,000 hours worth of rejections. Yeah. Yeah. And that's when that realism starts kicking in. And you're like, well, okay, I've heard. this a lot. But you must have known like that falsetto, that's unusual, right? So you could presumably had that as a child. And when it came out, were you like, oh, this feels different. This is maybe a talent or a skill? Yeah, I'm trying to think. For me, I really started feeling like I was

like impressing myself as a vocalist when I was singing at people's weddings, which is funny. because when I was touring around the world in punk bands and metal bands, in transit vans, and doing all the very cool things, like the very pure, like, you know, never sell out dude things. By the way, there were the most fun years, Emma, doing that. It builds so much character, and I'm, like, there was a whole scene of it back then. All the bands knew each other. Everyone kind of had their own transit van that they, like, did up their own ways.

There was a scene and a real culture around a subculture of music, And I'm so glad I was a part of it because it doesn't exist as much now because we're quite insular musically. We share online from our studios or bedrooms and that's kind of it. We don't spend as much time kind of on the road in an old LDV van that's got 300,000 bars on it. But that was amazing. But if I think about what taught me the most in terms of my ability and learning my crum, and skill as a singer, it's doing the not cool things, which, I mean, to me they were cool,

but to society and culture, they weren't cool, which is singing at pubs and singing at weddings. And that's where you really find out that no one cares. And what are you going to sing like when no one cares? That's the test. Because when I was singing at the venues, you had people come along and they loved your band and stuff like that, and you were kind of singing knowing you're going to get an applause

or stuff like that after it. When you sing at a wedding, you are bottom of the pile, really. Everyone's meeting people that they haven't seen in years. They're there for the bride and groom, the best day of their life. Like, so much going on, you're kind of the backdrop creating the vibe.

You're anonymous in some way. That's a train. I don't know where it's going. I know, it's a plane, son. Yeah. Oh, there goes. But you know, you said something, and it's really stuck with me.

You were being interviewed once. And you know when you read something, and I honestly think about it. I honestly think about this probably once a week, and I find it really helpful. It was something you said in an interview once, and you were asked about the idea of being cool, and you said,

cool is the enemy. Yeah, you said, cool is how people's dreams end up on the scrap piece. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Like, if I was focused on being cool, I wouldn't be here chatting to you now. How dare you? Well, because, well, what I mean by that, I understand how that just came across there.

I mean, if I was trying to be cool, I'd hardly hang out with you in that weird chit-suit. Running around the field. No, what I mean, that's class. I wouldn't have been anywhere. I wouldn't have done anything. Because call is so calculated. No one's cool effortlessly, I don't think.

So you have to procrastinate to be cool. You have to calculate every single move and be a perfectionist. What we know about perfectionism is it's all well and good, but nothing gets finished. Nothing gets done. You don't move on. Like, you let perfect be the enemy of the good. So I found out quickly when I sang weddings, that that was the case and I let go of it. And what I mean by being anonymous also when you sing weddings, so good for a singer.

Because you learn to sing for yourself and not for other people. So when you nail a run or you sing Whitney Houston, the best. you've ever sung it in your life. You open your eyes for the first time and you expect everyone to do this big standing ovation and stop what they're doing. The bride and groom are transfixed. Of course they're not.

They're just getting on drinking another glass of wine or something like that. And then you're like, oh, okay, I need to do this for me. My role is the cake. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? I'm the cake basically here today. I'm the same function.

Exactly. And then you start singing changes. The intention becomes inward and a sense of like, reflection and just improving from the last time and trying to connect with yourself and be present. And that's the key. Be present. You can't be present if you're trying to impress people. What was the song, be honest, that your heart would sink a bit when they'd say, we want this as our song. Just go on.

I would say, just because it possibly not even because you're not liking the song, just it being difficult to sing or like challenging or when would you think, don't want to do this song. Oh, there was one that I really didn't like doing it. I liked the song, but doing it was horrible. It was the power of love. Frankie goes to Hollywood. Great song, right? But try and sing, I'll protect you from the hooded claw. Someone's doing their first dance. I was just thinking, this is weird. Do you know what I mean? And I hope the people who asked me to sing that are listening, but don't take offense. It was funny. Because me and the band guys, like the rest of the guys that we did it together for eight years it's so much fun we'd all be

laughing at there and usually you know we're learning the first dance in the car park like huddled around like someone's car stereo learning all the bit but there was some nightmares i bet you got angels a lot no never got angels didn't you got ed sheer and obviously it was like that around that time yeah but i hope you got the right ed i hope it wasn't some creepy groom choosing the shape of you or something yeah yeah yeah yeah but yeah but yeah sometimes i'd have I'd turn up to a venue and the guys would be like, do you learn the first dance? And it would be like a Stanley Kubrick zoom on my face. Or like when they realized I forgot Kevin in home alone, like, Kevin!

Like it would be that realization like, shit, I haven't learned the first dance. And everyone's making their way to the dance floor. Bride and groom are there and I don't know it. And I've, that happened to me once. And I had to run to the bathroom, get my phone out and just listen to the. song and almost like copy and paste it just run back to the stage and just do my absolute best. Did you know the song? Luckily I'd heard the song on the radio so I could remember the melody but the lyrics like

I just had to make up and just get the main words where they're meant to be and then as soon as I did the first verse and first chorus and then a good trick is just repeating that again and then just being like everyone join them on the dance floor kind of thing that was my that was my go-to was my go-to. But you learn more from an incident like that. Yeah. Than you would from a million positive incidents. Yeah, totally. I really hope you love part one of this week's Walking the Dog. If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll be out on Thursday. So whatever you do, don't miss it. And remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks every week.