Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Simon Thomas

Episode Date: June 18, 2019

This week Emily and Raymond, her Shih Tzu, go out for a walk in Reading with ex Blue Peter and Sky Sports presenter Simon Thomas who tragically lost his wife to Gemma in 2017, prompting a wave of public support. Simon chats about how he's coped with grief, and attempted to rebuild his life and about the process of writing about it in his book Love, Interrupted. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, all gozzlings. Hello, Goslings. You're very lovely. I'm calling these the Ryan's. We have no food. The Ryan Goslings. Oh, no, I like that. Do you like that?

Hello, Ryan Goslings. Do you think the way Geese was a look at the Duke of Edinburgh about them? This week on Walking the Dog, I went to Reading to chat to TV presenter Simon Thomas. I'd always been aware of Simon from his years presenting Blue Peter and on Sky Sports, but two years ago he became a high profile figure for a reason he would never have chosen. He lost his wife Gemma to cancer. Simon opened up on social media during his period of loss, which really struck a chord with people

as he talked about getting through it all with his son. And now he's written a book about his experience. It's called Love Interrupted, and it's a really moving account of what happened. I had such a nice day out with Simon. I took my dog Raymond along for our riverside stroll, and we talked about a lot of things, what it felt like to suddenly deal with unimaginable loss,

the things you learn from grief, and how he's adjusting to a new life with his son. Simon's incredibly open and honest, but he's also a real laugh, so I felt like we were able to change gears between sadness and happiness with no awkwardness at all, and I left feeling really uplifted. Simon's book, Love Interrupted, is available now, and it's an important book that will teach you a lot about loss and learning to live again. I also think I've convinced him to get a dog, Although he said he'd like something a bit bigger than Ray, like a Labrador.

Cover your ears, Ray, Ray. He didn't mean it. If you liked our chat, please do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes. Here's Simon. Right, come on, Ray. Simon, I'll get Ray's lead. I'm just going to grab me brolly. Right, we need poo bags. Yeah.

We need treats. I dropped one tree gone already. Yeah. Come on, Ray. You lead the way. Do you what really winds me up with dog poo bags? Go on. It's when some people think, well, I put it in a bag, but I'll hang it off a fence.

Leave the cat food alone. Was he eating the cat food? Won't do you any good. She doesn't even like it. Yes, it's odd that poo bag thing, isn't it? It's a strange one. It's like, well, I've done my bit. I put it in a bag, but I'm going to just leave it on display for everybody.

Oh, look at this pretty gate. This house is so beautiful. It's like something out of a... It's where families live in children's literature, I think. Well, I was chatting to a mate who lives on the farm the other day when the summer shine and the kids were running around. You sort of thinking about what they're going to do future-wise, you know, where they stay here or get somewhere a bit bigger.

I said, honestly, your kids will have so many memories of just running around the fields and stuff around here that don't move. It's such a beautiful house. Let's go down this way. Should we go here? To the Thames. Come on, Raymond. And honestly, this is Raymond's idea of heaven, Simon.

Look at him. He's running in the field. He's an urban call. How is he with rivers? Because the Thames is just down here. I think he probably dies if he goes in the river. It's not like a black Labrador just goes leaping in and then does full spray on when it shakes itself off at the end.

I don't know if I want to risk it. Yeah, I can't imagine he's one of those sort of colonels dogs. You know, come along, let's get in the river. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't introduced the podcast, but I'm going to... I like this relaxed nature. I'm here in... Can I say where...

I won't say exactly where I am, but do you want to give us an indication of where we are? Well, we're officially in Reading, but this part of Reading is called Cavarsham, or if you're going to be pos, coversham. Oh, Camersham. Like Balam. We used to live in Ballam in London.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're actually going to go that way, but I was just going to say over there is that's the tree we planted. Oh, let's have a look. And I'm going to say, I'm with... The very wonderful Simon Thomas, who you will know as Blue Peter presenter, Sky Sports presenter,

and more recently, you've become very well known for something I know you would never have chosen, Simon. Yeah. But that was the loss of your wife, Gemma. Yeah. And we've just reached, well, maybe you want to tell us where we are now. So basically, we live this amazing place, which is like a little gem hidden away in Reading. which is like being the countryside. It was an old working farm about 20 years ago.

And then he sold up and a developer developed it. So we live in a part of the old farmhouse. And then at the end of the garden, there's a bit of communal land. And you can see the old Thames here. It's lovely in the summer. Well, this is summer, but you wouldn't know. No, you wouldn't know. The sky's a leaden.

The old boats perring pass. So this is like communal land and it's like a floodplain so you can never build on here. And I just, I sensed fairly early on that for me and Ethan, probably long term, we won't carry on living here just because of the memories and everything. So I wanted somewhere where I didn't want anything in a graveyard.

That's not for me. It's for other people, but not for me. Yeah. Somewhere where he could come back to you one day if you wanted and just remember living here. Remember the times with mum. And I thought a tree because it's life, you know. So we planted it last May and actually we had a big celebration. It was her birthday weekend.

I kind of wonder what to do. And so he planted the tree, had a little moment around him, 200 people over, marking in the garden and kind of celebrated. So lovely. Yeah, so it's just somewhere for both of us to come back to if we want to. want to and you know it's it's got a lot of more growing to do and the great thing is don't ask me up the name of the tree it's I can't remember it's ace or something but anyway in the autumn these go vivid red it's just amazing oh wow so yeah it's a wonderful mother

beautiful wife and beloved daughter and sister loving compassion at mist how lovely when that rose someone gave us it's called a Gemma rose how do you feel when you come to this because I mean obviously you see it a lot because it's on your doorstep I don't come down here loads. I can sort of see it from the garden. I think, I think still a little bit surreal, I guess. I sort of think, gosh, it was less than two years ago. We had a big party in the garden for her 40th. And then it was out. I mean, there's actually any months later she was gone. So yeah, it's a bit surreal. I'm really glad I did it. And I just like the idea of in the winter, like with everything, it just looks, no sign of life. And then the buds appear and back it comes.

so. It's really beautiful Simon. It's nice, isn't it? It makes me want to plant a tree for my sister actually. What did you do? We had... So we walk this way? Let's stroll past the Thames. Well, when my sister died, I mean, similarly to Gemma actually, which I want to talk to you about,

because we're sort of in fast grief club, you know, when it happens really quickly like that. Traumatic grief. Yeah. And with my sister, my brother-in-law wanted to... to have her in, have her, sounds so weird, doesn't it? But wanted her to be in Highgate Cemetery. Right.

Because that's up the road from where we grew up. Okay. So there's a real sense of history for us there. Yeah. And now all my family are there, which is handy. Because I can go, I always call it like Sunday lunch with the family. I say, I'm just going to go and see my family. I'm like to the cemetery.

I like that. But yeah, so I want to talk to you about a lot of stuff today, because this isn't the only thing that defines you, obviously. However, I want to start with that. We are leaving the farm now. Yeah, we're leaving the farm by farm. Officially. Come on, Raymond.

Please keep to the path private land. Raymond, to your left is the river, just to let you know. Raymond. Do you know, Simon? Ray is so excited. Look at him. We're so new and the smells will be new, aren't they? Because you're based in London.

Yeah. And it's all of it's kind of Carrie Bradshaw, urban girls duplex. That's a good praise. Yeah, I was saying I don't want to just talk about that because it doesn't define you. And I know you're attempting to rebuild your life, which I really respect you for. But I want to start with that because I've just read your book, which is why I'm interviewing you. It's called Love Interrupted. And I really loved it, actually.

I thought it was very, I was going to pick Ray up while we're going to go. over the bridge because he's so little, Simon, you might slip to you. Yeah, these are some big gaps on this book. The beautiful wooden, it's like a poo-sticks bridge. It is. Yeah, I love the book. I thought, it's such a tough thing to write about grief and I know because I've done it myself, but you managed to be really honest and authentic and deal with, you didn't run away from some of the difficult bits. No. Your anger, yeah. All sorts of things. Depression, you suffered beforehand and I really respected you for that. So you start in the book right in the middle of your tragedy essentially. And I feel, as someone who's been through grief, I feel comfortable doing that with you.

I don't have to do the ramp. Hi, how are you? Let's talk about Blue Peter. We can dive straight in. What was it like meeting the queen? Yeah, I don't need to do that. We'll do that after, but you know. So tell me how that felt finding out that Gemma was dying. Oh gosh, it's like an out-of-body experience and it's probably the best way to describe it. I sort of sat in that room. I mean, I was fearing something quite bad because the sort of look on the doctor's faces in the hospital in Oxford where she was. It was very similar to the look I'd seen on the faces of the doctors at the Royal Barks here in Reading where she was initially diagnosed with the blood cancer on the Monday night and it was that same look of kind of grave concern.

and I just thought, oh gosh, and she... It was so quick, wasn't it? Yeah, well, she'd fall unconscious at about half, four, quarter five in the morning. Yeah. And at the time I thought she was just going to sleep, she had a night of headaches and restlessness. And just when I remember coming, well, there's lots of things suddenly happened. Her doctor, consultant, Dr. Andy Penneker, he arrived in early.

So I thought, where's the dog gone? You see, this is why I like doing this with you, because I often do that. We can talk about very serious, sad, Well, people talk about I walk too quickly when I walk with them. No, but we can change gear, which I like. I feel slightly sorry for the... Ray!

Ray's a small dog. He is small, but you know what? He's fine once he's on grass. Ray, don't disappear into the boat yard. Yeah, there's a bit of a Howard's way set up here. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the only similarity is boats involved, but the stature of the boats and the...

Apologies to any millennials or Gen Z is listening to that. He don't get that reference. Gosh, I remember it. I do remember it. So yeah, so you were saying about Gemma just getting, because the run-up to it is that she'd suddenly said, well, she'd gradually just not be feeling great. Yeah, well, that was quite a gradual process.

The headaches just, they become more frequent, and then they last longer. But what turned out to be our last weekend, that's when the descent started to pick up speed in terms of the sheer fatigue she was suffering. But, yeah, I mean, that moment, that Friday morning, when I sit down in that room, yeah it's like an out-of-body experience you're kind of taking in but you're not really

I look back on that day and it really wasn't until she'd gone that everything exploded but I managed to keep some semblance of calm but I think I think a big part of that was just you're in such shock that you're not really processing what's going on you're just kind of you're in emergency mode you're in right I've got to do everything I can to be with her to hold her to pray with her to tell her stories what you know whatever and I don't think until we exited that night, having sort of sorted out all the various bits and bobs you have to do. I mean, I didn't do anything. Thankfully, the kind of team of friends around has sorted out all their belongings and stuff.

It wasn't until he sort of walked out about 7 o'clock, a couple of hours later into that November chill. It was absolutely freezing. I remember it. That kind of wall of cold has hit me, and then everything just came flooding out. My vicar David was with us. He just said he nearly blew some poor old boy off his feet. because you just let out this blood curdling no. But that's because everything in the day had been building up.

I just wanted to be there for her. And then it just went bang and it all came out. Yeah. And presumably you were sort of having to be strong because... Oh, wait, come on! He's now half a mile behind. He needs to get on the grass. This is when he comes into his own, I promise.

Ray, I feel you're embarrassing us a bit here. The trouble is, by the time he finished with a ball, we'll be impangorn. and he'll still be in Cabersham. Come on, mate. We'll be in Wind of the Willowsland, and he'll be wondering where you are. Good boy. Come on.

How do you find people's reactions are to small dogs? Because my sister-in-law, Rebecca, Gemma's sister, she got her miniature adaption. Mm-hmm. In the months after Gemma, she went out. She was planning to get a dog anyway. I think it just sort of sped up her desire to get something. Yeah.

We had Olive, as she's called, for a week last summer. And how was that? It literally was like walking around with a minor celebrity. Yeah, it is. Everyone just stopped, literally stopping. You couldn't go anywhere without kids because I think the big thing to kids is like, oh, you must find this to your dog.

It's something very unthreatening about a school dog, whereas the big ones kids are a bit like, well, I don't know what this dog's like. Yes. So they're all over it. I think Raymond has that sort of cartoon character look, doesn't he? I always say he looks like he was a prototype in George Lucas's studio.

Do you know what I mean? And they thought, oh, just make it real smile. now so they were like saving money on prosthetics or he has got a face full of character i know he's loving it here though how long have you had him my sister died and then both my parents died and that was in three years so i think it took it was sort of a year off and a half after that that was when i i had this thing that i'd always had the sense of having a the list i called things i always talk about doing oh it's fine i'm fine things i always talk about doing but never actually do right yeah and getting a dog was on that list

my late sister, she had a dog called Mr Giggles. That's a fantastic name. Isn't it great? Me, my niece named him. And I found him really comforting, actually, after Rachd died, just because we had him in the church after my sister died and it made it all a bit less daunting for the girls. And he was just comforting.

So anyway, I'm going to be persuading you by the end of this podcast to get one for you and your son, Ethan. Well, you see that. I have a lot of people in the early weeks on social media things. get yourself a dog. The way I kind of looked at it when I have my more sane moments because they were at myself, I'm going to do this,

is I had the very kind of, the romantic bit of it, which was the idea of on those lonely evenings, sort of, because I'd probably go to Labrador, so I always love Labrador, something of that sort of size. I see you with a Labrador.

Just looking up lovingly at me, and I'm just stroking it, and I just feel a sense of company, but of course, what I wasn't thinking about is that, giving me like a mini bomb going off when the puppy arrives for a few weeks, and I thought,

you know, at the most, kind of stressful, broken period of my life ever. Probably not a good idea to launch a puppy into proceedings because I'd want to be, I'd want to be, you know, as good an owner as I can and nurture it and help with the training and all that kind of thing. I just kind of thought, this is probably not the right time. Well, I made sure I waited.

That's why I waited quite a bit. We do have a cat as well. And Tilly's quite a, very timid. She's very friendly and loving. She's very timid. So Olive, who is actually smaller physically than Tilly has got her number already. And so she knows every time she comes,

she gets a great pleasure of chasing her out of her house. So take me back to, which again, you know, you talk about in the book and describe very well, but just that sense of when you met Gemma, it felt like, oh, look at this. Oh, you see. Do you want to describe what we've just seen? This river is littered with Canadian geese.

We have some other gozzlings, they call them. Where the swan gozzlings are around as well. You see, look, there's one. That's already a lot bigger. The grey one there. Oh, no, I don't like that one beating his chest like sort of Louis Suarez. Do you know what I mean?

Look, it's more down here. Is there another Suarez? Honestly. So tell me, sorry, I was asking you. Yeah. When you met Gemma, yeah, I get the real sense that you had a real feeling of, I've met, you know,

that terrible cliche, the one, but it did feel a bit like that. I hadn't expected to meet at that party. I didn't know anything about it. I'd actually gone there with my eye on someone else, actually. And that conversation didn't go brilliantly. And then I'd see this girl I'd never seen before, and we get chatting. And it's just like one of those moments in life where you kind of forget time.

You just feel that connection with them. And I always had that stupid paranoia about what people expected me to be like because of being on Blue Peter, that they think you're going to be this larger than life character, that you're going to have endless stories to regale them with. And I was never like that. I absolutely loved the job. But the other part that goes with it, they're kind of, in very small letters,

the fame side of it, was a novelty for about six months. And after that, so I just enjoyed the job, loved it, and it was something I was sort of half good at. But I just used to get a little bit too caught up with overthinking how people would be when they met you. And would they find me just a bit of a disappointment?

and she was just very good at just making me feel totally kind of relaxed because I just wanted to be me and not be Simon and the Blue Peter presenting because that was my job but it wasn't my identity. And you were the, you were presenting Blue Peter when you met her? Is that right? Yeah, it was, yeah. It was about a third of the way. So I was on it six years, I had a third of the way in.

But it strikes me, I got the sense that that was just not, she was a mum. That's what she wanted to do really, wasn't she? I know she was working at the time, but she just wanted to have a, family with you and yeah but she was quite career minded she had well the most passionate i saw her she's very very passionate about politics i mean if i'm ever looking for shards of blessing out of everything that's happened the one thing i do look at and think well leicies she doesn't had to see this car crash that is brexit unfolding because she was very angry about that decision yeah yeah she worked for the electoral commission for about three years yes and she was very

passionate about you know she ran an ad campaign with them to try and encourage people to vote and did this advertising campaign with Jim Broadbend doing the voices. And, you know, she absolutely loved that. But I think once she became a mum, and listen, we were very blessed in terms of me having a job that meant we had the money to do that because it's not straightforward. It's hard for a lot of people, yeah. And I think that was exacerbated by, you know, when we get to the moment where we know we can't have any more kids, we did those two rounds of IVF.

I think she just wanted to, like we both did, you kind of have. when you get one shot at it, you've got one kid, you know you're only going to do everything once. So, you know, when he got to year, year two, and that's the year at his primary school where that year does the speaking part of the nativity play. Right. We went to every single showing.

Because we're never going to do it again. Yeah. We'll go to having to nativity plays, but it won't be his year to speak. It's so interesting going into your house, which I just have, and I walked in, and the first thing I said was, this is the house I always dreamed.

I'd end up it. Yeah. That's not a chat-up one, by the way, because I know you're very happily involved with someone. But, you know, just in the sense of I thought, oh, when I'm a grown-up, I'll be in this kind of house. It's beautiful. And I think something about that Richard Curtis vibe,

it felt very like the kitchen in a Richard Curtis film. And the idea of that all being ripped apart, it feels so hideous, you know, when that happened to you. and I know from losing my sister the speed of it is tough, isn't it? Yeah, really tough. Because it was in... Three days from diagnosis to her going, yeah. Yeah.

Which, you know, I'd never... I've heard stories of where, you know, people just don't know they have cancer, then they get diagnosed and they've gone in a few weeks. I've heard a few of those stories. Yeah. I hadn't really heard anything like this before. And I know it does happen, it does. But, you know, as I say in the book, I always thought you get cancer gives you at least

some time to get your head around it and plan for the future, however hard that's going to be. But you just didn't get any of that. So absolutely no time to think anything through. And then suddenly bang, I simply couldn't face working at home, just being in a kind of... Yeah, I understand that. You've already seen and heard it's a peaceful place. But there were days when that piece was oppressive, but other days when it's quite nice. But I could never sit there.

But now I can work at home. And it's fine, and it's not Redding's fault. No. You know, we moved here with, you know, those dreams of it being a house with two or three kids playing around. Yeah. Yeah, and all those kind of things. And all the worst things that have happened have happened here. But actually some really amazing things have happened here as well.

So I'll never look back on this chapter of life and go, it was all rubbish because it wasn't. And actually, even since Gemma's death, there's been some amazing, lovely things have come out of it all. But I just think you're essentially when you go, through something like this, you are leaving a chapter behind. You're not forgetting it, but you are leaving it behind. And the only question is, what do you do with the next chapter? And I want to rewrite it. And I just, I do, I know some people listening to that I think, well, that's ridiculous.

How can that it be possible? But I do believe life can be as good again, but it's just going to be different. Well, it's interesting because my take on it, like you, still coming out the other side. It's like alcoholism, I think, grief, in the sense that you're a dry drunk. Yeah. never not there, but you're able to control it, you know, I suppose, and contain it. And I always think about grief that, you know, it pops up sometimes. It's a weird visitor when you least expect it. I had it the other day. I was driving around and it's really weird. I saw something to do with

Donald Trump and I thought, my sister never knew. And she was like Gemma, she was political and she would have been mortified about that. And I thought, God, what would she have said? And I just burst into tears. And I don't know what that is, but is it just that reminder that you know with Gemma that it's, your book is called Love Interrupted. It's the life interrupted is a different kind of grief, isn't it? And I wonder how, what your thoughts are on that. That way, that's a hard one. That was sort of something I came to appreciate in the early weeks is this wasn't just your own grief.

Yeah. It was different layers to it. It was obviously my biggest pain still is not about me. It's about Ethan. Your son, yeah. He will forever grow up without a mum. And for Gemma's sister, she'll never have another sister. And for her mum, I mean, a dad sadly passed away in January.

Her mum will never have another daughter. Now, this is not, in some ways, kind of cheapening my grief. But, you know, I hold firm to the belief that I maybe one day could have, you know, someone to do life with again. Yeah, yeah. I could be married again, I hope I am going to be. So I could have something different, but in terms of the structural life similar, you can't have another mum.

And that's been the single hardest thing to deal with is that, you know, as a parent, you want to fix stuff and you want to protect your kids. And you never want an eight-year-old kid learning in the most brutal way how cruel a place the world can be. But he's already had that business on his doorstep when he was only eight years and a couple of months old.

You know, and that's, it's those years ahead for him that are hard to deal with at times. And then the simple fact is, you know, cancer robs thousands of people of life. Yeah. It's Rob Gemma, if everything are panned out, she lived out the life expectancy in this country for a female. She's lost out on over half of her life. Yeah. And the privilege of carrying that walk on with her boy. And that's a really half thing to deal with.

It's less about yourself. It's more about, for me, about them. We're going to go over Redding's newest bridge. Look at this little chap here. Oh, lovely. How's Ray? How's Ray get on with other dogs? What's the deal when big dogs come up?

Well. Because I'm, when I sometimes see that if I'm coming through here on my scooter, I'm thinking, is that dog about to eat the little dog? Do you know, I sometimes, look, there's interest from this dog. This is a potential first aid scenario. First bit of interaction. Oh, this seems to be going well so far. You see this bit, I don't like, I'm being honest.

What? The sniff and the dog sniff each other. Well, isn't that essentially what humans do? They just put on aftershave, Simon. I'm bloody glad it doesn't look like that, though. Can you imagine? Well, not in the early part of the evening. Imagine going to a party, the standard greeting.

Right, crouched down. Yeah, everything's good. But I like the honesty of the dog. Because they're essentially saying, look, this is, look. What's that about? This one is... Ray's gone. Ray, come here, please.

I only called him back because I wasn't sure about that other dog I was like you saying bowl against James Corden. It just wasn't going to happen. It really wasn't. Look at those ones. No, you see Ray can't get involved in that. No, Ray. That's a bit grumpy.

You know those overprotective mothers that keep their sons at home? He's basically Anthony Perkins and psycho. You've got some great lines. That's why I turn him into. Great line. But I was really moved in the book, actually, because I... I'm just saying how moved I was. Look, what's happened?

Slightly bigger. Yes, what's this? It looks like a border terrier, but it's not. It's quite old. What sort of dog is yours? What sort of dog is that? Oh, that's a border terrier. Oh, I thought it was border, yeah.

I got it right, Simon. I love it when I get the breed. Absolutely lovely. What's it called? His name's Diesel. Diesel? Diesel. After the jeans or just off the fumes?

That's the previous owner. Ah, okay. He's had him since December. Oh, he's lovely. Yeah, he's a good boy. actually. Hello. He came to me wanting to fight everything around and now he's good boy.

I've had men like that. There's a conversation I never thought I'd be hearing on the riverside in Reading. Come on, Ray. Nice to see you. Bye bye, bye, Diesel. How do you get on with that aspect of having a dog? Do you like the social side of it? Do you know I did and I actually found it?

Very cathartic. We're always dealing with loss. Yeah. I think I went through, as I know you went through, you know, I've always had issues with depression, I think. But really, it really, for me, it was kind of circumstantial. It was after my family died, but it was that sort of I don't want to get out bed. And I think when you've got a kid that's probably helpful in some ways, you have to,

you don't have a choice. But I think the dog has been so useful with that structure. Yeah, yeah. And also, Ray, I think this bridge might be too big. I think I'm going to carry you over this bridge, Simon. Not you. Yeah, good luck. You weren't very slim.

Yeah. But, yeah, I think it just was nice having interactions with people that didn't require, you know, previously on ER. Explanations. I could just say, how are you? What sort of dogs that? How old, yeah. And you know what? Sometimes that's all you want.

That's all you want, isn't it? I wanted to ask you, so I was asking about when you had to tell. because my brother and all had to do that and I found it really helpful reading your book because that's always haunted me I suppose the idea of him having to have that conversation and he wanted it just to be him and my niece which I understand now yeah the intimacy that it was a dad yeah telling a daughter and I want to know what that was like and how on earth you deal with that I think that was the hardest bit of the book to write as in when I became most emotionally involved with it I think part of writing I kind of almost had to not divorce myself from it but there were there were times

I'd read it back and it was like reading someone else's story this might sound a bit bonkers I'd read and go oh this is really hard and poor things and you go what's your story mate because I think to enable you to write you almost have to stand back a bit Yes. But there were certain parts of it where, because I wrote a lot down from probably about week three after she went in those early mornings when I couldn't sleep, I wrote thousands of words. So I had a great resource to write off for the rest of the book. But the first few chapters, I had literally walked myself back through that week. And then when it came to writing about Ethan, I literally had to put myself back in Dave's car, traveling back from Oxford to Reading, remembering every emotion I was feeling.

Remember the moment I went into McDonald's because we hadn't eaten all day, and I nearly nearly nearly. nearly explode with anger at McDonald's for the fact that everyone's just cracking on with a Friday night. My wife's just died. And then the kind of the anticipation. You described the noise as well, which I related to. It's like, it's like everything's going on, kids larking around, chip fries. Just the soundtrack to a Friday night at McDonald's. It wasn't no one's fault, but you're in this parallel universe all of a sudden.

You feel as far away from it as you can, yet you are physically present. And I just wanted to go, shut up, what the fucking is wrong with you? what I wanted to say, but no one's fault there. Why, were they supposed to know what just happened? Yeah. But I just, yeah, I remember as I wrote it, I'm just going back into what I was feeling as we drove back to Reading. I remember the vivid moment when to come through the gate into the farm

and I can see the house lights glowing because the kids, like his cousins and he had been taken back to the house. And then just literally trembling as I walked back in. And there's no, I've just got to do it. It's like, I can't hang around. And it was no kind of conscious decision, but I just thought, I need to do it on my own with him. Yeah. And so, yeah, I took him upstairs, and he sensed something was coming.

You could still see his eyes now. But it was interesting because in the, probably a couple of weeks after, we went actually very similar to where we're on now into Reading on the Saturday. And he said, Daddy can ask you something. I said, yeah. He said, I thought that Friday night you were coming home to tell me mum was going to be okay. because it's understanding of his impression. Rightly so, doctors and nurses aren't there

to make people better, but of course at that age, you don't have the understanding that sometimes they just simply can't. And they couldn't make Mummy better, and I explained to him why they couldn't. And he's really just, I loved this kind of,

just the way he kind of summed it up as a child. He went, oh, it's a bit like, so was it a bit like, Mommy's body was like a car and it broke down, they just couldn't fix it. I mean, it was exactly that, sad. Yeah. But, yeah, that moment,

I think it was a really important moment, not just the obvious reason, but because it was about setting the kind of tone for our relationship going forward is I am going to be here from you. I can't sadly say, I'm always going to be here for you. You can't make a kid that promise.

If he was mum's just died, how could you possibly say that? But we were, you know, as we rolled around the floor and it's the most horrific thing hearing your eight-year-old boy howling like that. I'll never want to hear that again,

but just holding him, holding him. There's nothing you could say apart from I'm here for you. I love you. I love you. Mommy loved you. I'm here for you. We'll be okay. I just kept saying it again and again and again until eventually that initial, I described it about like a tsunami wave crashing in.

The kind of flow of water through it, kind of calmed down a bit. And we could kind of swim back and grab on something and he begins to calm down. But I'd hate to see any of my friends have to go through something like that because it's horrific, but you have to do it. I mean, I could have made it easy and just gone right. Well, not easy, but it's sort of sat with a family around the kitchen table. and put him on the knee and told him in front of everybody, but that wouldn't have been right.

Yeah. At that moment, it was a father and a son coming together and absorbing the most horrible news and then going, right, we'll be okay somehow. Well, it's interesting because you talk about you wanting to make Gemma present for him as in the sense of he would always have a mother. Yeah, you know,

and that's the impression I got from your book And I found it very touching when you talk about how you would say, let's talk about memories of mine, you know? And was that something that just struck you instinctively? Yeah, yeah, and it wasn't because there was no time. I mean, I did talk to a kid's counsellor later that first week. You don't have the time there, do you? No, no, no.

So, you know, in instances where, say, Gemmashy had survived for a bit longer, but ultimately, well, you know, acute milder, the outcome in the outlook is absolutely horrific. Yeah. You know, only 15% live beyond five years. So even she got through that week, the outlet wasn't good. But, you know, if you were facing, losing her, there would have been a time to have conversations with counselors who know what they're talking about with kids. Right, what's the best thing to do on that first day? On that, how do I go about telling them?

You know, what are the kind of things that's good for them in terms of helping them to begin to process what's happened? There's no time for that. You're literally plunged into it. what are you going to do with it? I just had a strong sense that going forward, just to keep mum part of the conversation, and it was happening literally, you know, that first morning, you know, he wakes up and my sister Becky was one side of me,

he was the other in our bed. And, you know, he just wakes up and he was crying initially. And then he sort of said, oh, you know, I just want to tell you about my Christmas list. And I'm thinking, oh, for goodness sake, I don't want even thought about Christmas, let alone what you want. and he names the three things he wants

and the third thing is that I want mummy back and it's not even 24 hours and already as I described the book Mum's become part of his Christmas wish list but you know we carried on keeping a part of the conversation and it's changed over time

you know now it's now how it tends to work is like last night you know the weather was so horrible it's like June yeah I thought right well let's have a wintry meal so we had a lovely roast chicken and I've got a lot better of cooking Have you got better at cooking?

Yeah, I've mastered gravy now because gravy is so key. I don't believe in just pouring some hot water into some granules. I want to kind of make it. And he really liked the gravy. In fact, he took nearly all of it. Slightly to my annoyance. Yeah, yeah. And I just said with that, I think, oh, you know,

and he might say, I'd say, a 10, do you think mum would give me for that. And he said, nine. So it's just those kind of simple things, because Gemma was a very good cook. So we had to break there because there was a problem with the batteries. and I gave the producer, I think it's fair to call them minor evils. It was fine in the end. Brilliant. We're all good.

So, and that would be bad, Simon, wouldn't it? I mean, if it was anyone else saying, yeah, I'm just talking about my new movie, whereas please can you re-record all that very moving stuff you just told us about your... We haven't got any of it. Losing your wife. I do remember writing two chapters of the book one. There was on a bit of a role. Yeah.

It was quite emotional stuff. And I was backing up all the time. suddenly this thing appeared and it had gone. And my heart sank, not so much because the hassle of rewriting the two chapters, but I don't think I can write it in that way again. No. Thankfully, someone very kindly helped me through it. Did they?

Yeah, but I was that. Well, I've got something to tell you, which is... We haven't recorded anything. I lost 12,000 words of my book. Oh, and did you ever get them back? No. And you know what? It was all about, I sort of, like you, I sort of was interested to talk about the moment.

Yeah. In intensive care, because I feel that we never get to see that side of death. You know, it's all sort of Hollywood around a deathbed, and I love you. Whereas, you see, I know it's not like that. Well, I sort of toyed with whether, do I start the book with the aftermath or do I not? Yeah. And I just thought, for whatever reason, just going to Cavish and Bridge now to see, you know. Redding's lacking bridges, but let's not get into the traffic problems because it's just so boring.

but I decided that actually I think it's really important that people understand what that moment of loss feels like and I just tried to write it in a way that could because you know this you have to accept that people friends, family, you've never been through something like this can never fully understand it until they have but I thought can I take someone as close as the reader's prepared to go to what that moment of loss feels like

and that was all I was trying to do I thought it's we're so uncomfortable about talking about death that if I just pick it up in the aftermath, yeah, we're still dealing the same thing, but I've not spoken about the moment that took me to the aftermath. Yeah. So I just thought I'm going to write about it. Well, that's what I thought,

and I thought actually no one had prepared me for what to expect in that intensive care unit. And I felt sometimes with my sister particularly, I mean, my dad and I were estranged, so that was quite a tough one anyway, but I was there for all three of them. But I felt for my sister, I thought, is someone going to come in and art direct this?

You know what I mean? And tell me, I felt like I needed a director to say, this is the bit where you make the speech, this is the bit where you do this. And I thought, when do I say it? When is she going? But isn't that interesting? I think it's Steve Bland, Rachel Bland's husband,

who I've got to know very well. I think it was simply said this when I was chatting with him. He said, there's only two days in your life where you don't have 24 hours, the day you're born and the day you die. And he said the amount of preparation you have as a mum and a dad for giving birth is limitless. Yeah, yeah. But he said that even though Rachel's illness had been a lot longer than Gemma's,

and they knew they were on the final lap, he still said there wasn't really enough there to prepare him and his boy, Freddie, but more so steep as Freddy was so young, for what those moments are going to be like. And I think with what happened in Gemma, there wasn't time for them to sit down and say, right, this is what can happen. But I remember, you know, just being in there with her and holding her hand, she's about two hours away, and they came and took all the equipment away.

Now, the reason they're doing that is because they wanted her to look, was dignified as possible at the end. But the time you're going, what are you doing? I thought that, Simon. Why are you doing that? I had that with my sister. Have you given up? Yeah.

They said, well, move her into another room. Yeah. So that she can sort of slip away in August. And I thought, what are you saying? So they use the word slip away? Yeah. That's a horrible word. This is a Redding Rowing Club, by the way.

Oh, here we go. There's two. Some very athletic people around. There's some, there's sort of girls who look like they've been friends with Kate Middleton. Do you know what I mean? Those sort of girls that make me feel very, Jolly hockey sticks? Well, they just make me feel a bit weak and pathetic.

Unfit, yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. She's got a couple of big oars on her. Sweep you and your boy into the river in no time. This is the rich end of wedding. So on this right-hand side. I'm sorry.

She's got a couple of big oars on her. Just one sweep of her big right arm and you've been in the river. People say, I really like that, Simon Thomas. I really connected with his story and his courage. However. And now I heard him saying, she's got a little. It was on her. Oh yeah.

There's so many geese. These are bigger. These will be a bit more stroppy, I guarantee you. I should say, actually, I know you because we have a mutual friend in common. A great Connie Huck. The lovely Connie Huck. And I remember her calling me after Gemma had died and she was driving to see you. Yes, she was.

And she told me what happened and she knew that my sister had died and left two kids and my brother and Lord had gone through similar stuff to what you were going through. And she just was telling me your story and I just felt really moved by it. So I remember I reached out to you. I just sent you a letter, I think. You did, there's a lovely letter. Well, you were really sweet

because you replied and you said, and I thought, God, there were so many I didn't even reply to. And I think what I felt was that I wish I'd had someone who'd been through it. You know, that's the thing is that it is, it sounds awful like Smug Death Club. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you find that, that people who'd experienced grief understood it better? Yeah. They get it. They get what it feels like. And they get why, what you say to someone and how you say it's all important. And they know what to say. We still have this massive problem about how you vocalise your sympathy and that desire to help someone in the right way

and don't come out with something really trite. Or actually don't say anything at all. You know, the phrase I struggle with massively for a long time. I still do occasionally when I see it. I don't struggle with it, but it annoys me, is that stay strong, be strong. It's like, it's stop you in your tracks, you know what I'm talking about. I actually just stopped, didn't I? Because I was so angry.

It was like you hit the break. People are saying to you like, that's the automatic response, and that's what I do. I just be strong. But when you've just been snapped into, which effectively that's what grief and traumatic griefs is, it breaks you apart. And over time, you begin to stitch yourself back together again. but the concept of what the hell does that look like when this has just happened and you've also got an eight-year-old boy who's just lost his mum and someone's saying to you be

strong I think it's a yeah I think it always resonated with me more it it wasn't just yeah posh grief club and all that it was it was just like well this person gets it yes and I feel more like I can just write back to and say thank you because that's been really important to me because it's it's like with mental health when you're in those dark places it's it's that powerful knowing you're not alone is so important because you do feel very alone and even when I was surrounded by friends and family in those first few weeks

felt terribly alone even though there might be ten bodies in the lounge because you're in this parallel universe where nothing makes sense anymore you're driven by fear about what on earth the future is going to look like how can I bring Ethan up on my own

the conversation is just like I describe it like someone playing a record on half speech at a pub when you're drunk, like it's all kind of noise, you can't engage with it. You know, I'm just looking at these joggers going past. Some of these guys may have been caught up in my anger all those months ago because I'd go down the end of the garden when I felt anger because that was the one emotion I didn't feel comfortable showing in front of Ethan's.

I think it's very disconcerting, whereas crying and being upset, I think you need to express that because he needs to see. His mum died, it is sad. Yeah, but the anger bit, I probably didn't think he didn't need to see. I'd quite regularly pop on the Wellington booths, dressing gown, because I've been up since probably about half two, half three, and about six in the morning, I just yell blue murder down the end of the garden.

And this towpath we're on now stretches all the way down, and it's the other side of the river from the garden where I was shouting. So probably some of these joggers probably went past early in the morning, and thought, who is that lunatic? But I thought, bugger it, I need to let this out, because it is the analogy I've used a lot of times, is grief is like,

if you don't let it out it's like just gently shaking a fizzy bottle of drink and eventually that top is going to blow off but if you ease it off and just let these things out then it begins to calm down a bit and it's not going to be as messy

I remember speaking to a close friend of Gemmers oh all gozlings hello gozlings you're very lovely I'm calling these the Ryan's we have no food the Ryan Goslings oh nice I like that

do you like that hello Ryan Goslings they're a handsome family They, in a way, they're very Hollywood. Do you think with the way geese walked, there's a look at the Duke of Edinburgh about them? I mean, they're walking slightly quick. Slightly quicker than he walks these days.

You're right. It's the regal. Yeah, that's sort of snooping around, head stretched in the air. It's the sort of people that walk into a room, and you go, hello, nice to meet you. You go, hello, I went to Eton, nice to meet you too. By the way, I've got to tell you, this. These houses are beautiful, Simon.

So what's... I used to refer to this. This is a Ronnie Corbett type house. You know, like comedians in the 70s. Should we about turn here? Yeah, shall we? I was just going to say that down through there is the, that's where the Redding Festival happens. So if you come down here on that bank holiday Monday.

I'm just following you. At about three o'clock. Have you seen the film Sean of the Dead? Oh yes. Like that. Basically all these youngsters coming out literally walking like this. Absolutely monged. They leave all their tents behind, which winds me up a tree.

It's so beautiful here, though. Simon, I want to go back to your. early. You've had your childhood. Because you were born in Norfolk, is that right? Yeah, Norwich. Yeah. Norwich.

And what did your parents do? My mum was a full-time mum. Mm-hmm. And the dad was a vicar. Right. Yeah. I think I remember that now because you do mention that in your book. Yeah.

And do you think, you know, I know you have belief and you go to church? Yeah. Is that inevitable with your dad being a vicar or is that? What, that I have a faith? Yeah. No. No, I don't think it is because I've seen a lot of vicar's. kids who go marching off the other way.

It's almost like a protest against it. Yeah. But I think what my mum and dad did very well was never impose it on me. Right. Yeah, it just so happened that a lot of my good friends when I was growing up, they went to church as well. So that Sunday's going to Sunday school was good fun because you have your mates. But in terms of what you believe, you know, inevitably faith is going to be part of family life.

Your dad's a vicar for heaven's sake. Of course it's going to be. but I was never, never felt pressurised into, I have to go to church. I actually went quite a lot because I felt I wanted to go, but also it was nice for my dad, you know. It's quite hard for a vicar when all these kids end up by a certain age absent and never there. Some of these joggers are getting quite quick, aren't they? Some of the ones earlier gave me hope again to get back into running.

The London joggers, I thought, almost. Well, your faith was challenged, though, and you acknowledged that. I mean, that challenge, but when you lost Emma, I think, was that sort of tough in a way? I would have felt cheated, I think, if I'd have been religious. In some ways, I think, for a time, it almost makes it even more complex than it already is, because you are searching for answers

in places that way if you had no faith, you wouldn't be looking for answers. You just go, well, life's shit, and this is horrible, I'm in pain, but I don't have to question where in earth God is in all this. Whereas when you have a faith, that is immediately your question. Well, I say I've put all these hours in. Yeah, but it was more just like, I prayed for on the day she's dying.

I said, God, stop this bleeding. Please, I don't want my boy to grow up without a mum. You wouldn't bless us with any more kids. Please don't allow his mum to go. Nothing happens. And of course, that was when I came out at the hospital at night and that wall of cold hits me. That was where my anger first went.

It was to him. It was like, right, why? To God. Why? Why have you done this? But I don't think he did do it. And how do you feel about that now? I think I've gone past the point

I don't, the God I follow I don't believe ordained for Gemma to die on the 24th November 2017 because if he did my faith would stop right there because I don't want anything to do with a god is like that. Yeah.

I just think there's ultimately some things with faith I mean that's the whole point of faith is about putting your hand out in the darkness and hoping to find it held and I don't want to spend the rest of my life angsting over this. I'll get Christians in there It's trying to encourage you.

Ultimately be a tripe platy which is, you know, we won't find out all the answers in this life. And I said, well, actually, we may not be fine. May never find out why what happened did happen. But actually, I'm really sad to say, but the horrible reality is, and the truth is for many thousands of people in this country alone, is that cancer's everywhere.

I know. And it's, we were horribly unlucky in terms of that she gets a rare one, and it's as quick as it was and the complication that ultimately took her life, which was, you know, bleeding in multiple areas of the brain was also an unusual complication

for acute mild leukemia. She was unlucky on a whole number of counts, but in terms of cancer, you know, even since Gemma's died, two friends I know have had, one's got terminal breast cancer. I mean, she's trying new treatment. She lives up here in Kavisham,

and another one's had a scare with breast cancer and has fortunately come through. And that's all in 18 months. It's everywhere. And so I just sort of now look at it and think we've sadly been on the wrong end of this disease that's so prevalent that I don't look at it as God's fault. And actually, for me, I think when hope disappears, the hope in this not being it, then it's like I'm not sure from my own personal point of view how I process to think, that's it.

Yes. Yeah. This is it. You know, you were saying your dad's a vicar, so I was thinking he must have provided you with some sort of, was that comforting? Well, no, it's been really tough for him because, I mean, very sadly, he's now gone into a home. Has he? He's a sound mind, but he's not the same that he was. And, you know, they weren't able, because his mobility was so bad.

They couldn't make it to Oxford to see Gem at the final time. And I don't think he has been emotionally capable because everything he's going through to really be able to support me in the way that he would have done five, ten years ago. He totally would have done. But he's just dealing with so much. Of course. And he's going to home is a massive thing, isn't it? And the role shift, don't they? You become the parent of your own parents in a way.

Yeah, I mean, half term recently. It was back there helping mum and my sister Becky. They're just sorting out the myriad of financial hurdles. You have to jump over in terms of pay it. Just calm down. I don't like these ones with the orange eyes. I think they've got me. Don't never trust anything with orange eyes.

Who is it? Was it Michael Howard that someone said there's something of the night about him? It's like that with these. Is it Anne Whittaker? Oh, and he's just. He's gone to the bathroom in front of us. Well, this whole towpath is a poo circus. I mean, this is your toilet, you people.

I mean, I say people. Look at him! He's on one leg. There is attitude everywhere. Do you know what? He has got so much attitude. He's on one leg, look at his step. He's the me of the bird and geese world.

He's basically the Chris Eubank of geese. And he honks as well. He had a monocle and a lorry. Oh, yeah. So you were growing up? Yeah. You went to Birmingham University? I did, yeah.

Yeah. And you ended up going into TV. Yeah. And you auditioned three times. No, no. Is that a lie? Is that some Wikipedia rubbish? Right, you tried. I've got nowhere with the first two. I had the standard, thank you for your interest, we'll keep your e-cells on file, code for trash bin. And it was only on the third attempt that I got it. For Blue Peter? Yeah. I'd given up. Why did you, I'm interested in why people want to go into that line of work. Well, if you talk to Katie Hill, who I worked with filming with the first year, it was a childhood dream of hers. I used to watch the show as a kid and think,

my days, that would be amazing to work on it. But I never had a moment where I thought I would. So I just thought that's something way beyond anything you could ever end up doing. But I started developing an interest in kind of presenting at university so they had an internal TV station. Yeah. And they had accrued a load of secondhand equipment from Pebble Mill, which was just down the road in Birmingham,

where all the morning output used to come from on the BBC. So I did a Friday lunchtime program called The Lunchbox. Absolutely terrible. But I remember as it came to leaving university, the girl who produced it, said, you know, you're really good at this. You should really think about it. I just came out for, I thought, Blue Peter's the one I want to go for. Now it's pigeons. Did you have, I mean these pigeons, this is like Mary Poppins and Bert.

Or it's like being in the middle of a horror movie. You see, this guy's just bunging out flatbread. That's why there's 600 swans there now. So, I was talking about how you became a TV presenter and you're a good-looking bloke. Yeah, well. No, but I can imagine you got attention in that sense. I like that you admitted that because a lot of blokes go, no, I was fat and spotty. Well, it was the pre-social media era as well on Blue Peter, so it was quite different.

So people would have to go to a bit of effort to tell you that. Were you conscious growing up that you were handsome, I guess, and that girls fancied you? No, I don't really. I was as insecure as the rest of them. Never used to think that at all. And even on Blue Peter, I didn't. It took me a long time to get to the point where I was comfortable watching myself back, but which is actually a really good thing to do because you notice mannerisms. You have to get rid of mistakes.

Like, you know, when I first started, like we're walking now, we're just walking naturally and talking. I remember doing a film at St Paul's Cathedral in my first films. And when I did walk and talk shots. How are you? What did you have done it? I couldn't hold, well, I was like this. I looked like a penguin. Sorry, I didn't know this old chap of his bike.

He'll call him an old boy. He's got a face like thunder. He looked angry, isn't it? He really didn't like us. My producer, Rich, said, Simon, what's going on your hands? Some people used to say to me, like, oh, you don't sound like you're doing TV.

Well, partly because I'm not presenting right now, but also partly, yeah, you do put on that kind of, you know, Doreen and my girlfriend, always takes the Mick out of me and says, oh, you're doing your presenter voice again. Well, I'm not, I'm just putting you a bit of effort into my voice. rather than just mumbling. But I have a theory for you about that

because you mentioned in the book, and having had so much therapy and being a bore about it, I made connections, sorry about this, but I worked out, you talked about how when you did Blue Peter, the reason that you sort of got the job

and they liked you is that you were very much yourself. Yeah. And that's what they've wanted for the show. And I know you go on and you've been very honest about how you struggled a bit with being in the limelight and you struggled with depression

and that was slightly a contributing factor, I think. Yeah. And I wonder whether friends of mine who perform have said you have to make a choice. You're either, you put on an act. And the good thing about that is you hang up all that stuff on the coat rack at the end of the working day. Yeah. Or you're yourself, which means you're better, but it's dangerous. Yeah.

What do you say to that? It's almost an impossible balance to strike because you say if you're going to be yourself, that was the hard thing you engaged on BluePid. It's being yourself whilst also not totally being yourself because if you've had a really guff weekend and you're in a foul mood

and whatever's been happening in your private life has just been really difficult, if you're going to be true to yourself and you've come on air at 5 o'clock and go, hello everyone, I've said a rubbish weekend. So we're going to get through the next 20 minutes I'm going to be making a doll's gym

and yeah, just stick with it. You couldn't do that. So you were kind of trying to find a balance between, you know, you were having to put on a bit of an act because you quite clearly can't come on air and say that, but also trying to be actually yourself because there's our editor at the time, Steve Hocking, you say, whenever it came to hiring a new presenter, he says, I want the kind of person who ought to take around at the viewer's house and have a tea with them and they feel at home. Yeah. And that's what you wanted. It's a hard balance of strike. But you left and you were, you ended up working for Sky. Yeah.

for Sky Sports. That's right. Which must have been a nice move because if you're a football fan, that's sort of a dream gig really, isn't it? I think I lucked out really to do to land two dream jobs. I mean, it took, listen, it took me a while to climb a ladder at Sky.

You know, like many who joined Sky Sports, their kind of dream, their aim is to one day do the Premier League and it took quite a lot of years, but I was prepared to put the graft in because I do believe in working hard for something. And I think having to wait for Blue Peter for two and a half years selling suits and self-fetries after university

wasn't really what I'd planned. But when I got the job, I think it made it even more sweeter because you understood a bit more about the world of work and how actually a lot of people do jobs that aren't particularly, you know, enjoyable. And now I'm doing a job which is massively enjoyable, and I think I've savoured it even more. And I think the sky, yeah, I just totally, you know,

just felt like I lucked out. I'm just going along. And I actually enjoyed flying under the radar a bit more because you were essentially, you are just there. The Blue Peter presenters were, along with the pets, the key part of the show. Yeah, their personalities are living. Whereas Sky, you're essentially a facilitator.

You get the match on air. You ask the right questions. You get to the breaks, the right montage. And then people tuning in for the game. Not tuning in for you. You were, again, in the book, you're very honest about this. When people normally aren't, which I respected you for.

Particularly in that, let's be honest, quite testosterone-fueled world of sports presenting. And you admitted that you were going through a really, you struggled, this is long before Gemma was sick, that you were going through depression and... You were having sort of panic attacks, won't you? Yeah. Can you tell me what happened? It was horrendous.

I had a period of depression after... So we had two rounds of IVF to try and have a brother or sister for Ethan and the first one failed, the second one did actually work. And then Gemma miscarried about a month later and the kind of all hope was gone on having any more kids. And, you know, men and women will deal with it in different ways. I kind of just ended up going to quite a dark place and started getting a bit of counseling and took medication and came through it. You know, it was difficult, but came through it.

And, you know, that's what I think the experts would describe as logical depression and you can see where it's born that's brought out of. Second one, I'm starting to now piece it together a little bit more, but it really was no explanation. It was September time 2017, so a couple of months away from Gemma. Gemma dying and I can honestly say that family life was probably as happy as it ever had been. I was the second season of Premier League football and we got past the kind of angry, bitter stage of not being able to have any more kids. And so when status rocks up on Facebook, you know, three months scan picture and all that, it didn't drive me to the angry place.

It was kind of a piece with everything. Yeah. And then I just sort of sense my mood darkening a little bit. and I didn't really understand why and actually very interestingly it was checking to Gemma's mum the other week and she said you know Gemma texted me at the start of that season

and she said you know there's something not right with Simon I'm a bit worried about it at that point I'm not even picking up on it yeah she'd obviously seen a change and then I wake up one morning late September I'm doing a show in the evening for Sky really simple football talk show basically nothing to worry about

but I just woke up I guess the best way to describe it would be maybe waking up on the morning of an A level when you've done no revision. That kind of, oh, shit. And yet you've been doing this job for you. Yes. You know. I remember actually walking down this top half into Reading here to meet Gemma for lunch that day.

The whole way I'm having this conversation with head to him, but you can do this. I've always said, you can't do this. You know, what if you dry out with questions? What if the guests aren't very talkative? Just nonsense. but at that time, everything, and that just began to sort of just increase as the weeks went on, and then panic attacks were starting to become quite regular before a game. And the bizarre thing is, and I've spoken to others about this,

that being on air was your safe places. So it's the run-up to it, it's the fear. Yeah, and then you come off air thinking, I've actually had a really good show, but within minutes, and then when the next game comes, all the doubts, all the questions, all the fears, are back in on you. And Sky were great, weren't they? And they said, look. So good.

They said take as long as you need. And they've got the biggest thing for me. Which turned out to be God, who'd have known, Simon? Well, that was it. What was going to happen next? But they were the biggest thing for me with them. What I feared they wouldn't have. Yeah.

Wrong as it turned out was understanding. It was that willingness, that desire to understand what you're going through, how they can help. Rather than just saying, we'll give you a couple of weeks off. We'll see you at Stoke for the game in a couple of weeks' time. Yeah. What I feared would be the reaction, but it was totally the opposite. I'm so glad for you that they were kind and supportive. Well, the whole climate is changing.

I mean, I've done a few seminars at workplaces now, where companies are really beginning to address this and put things in place to help people going through it. And it's fantastic the way the conversation's changing. Simon, talking to the conversation changing. What is going on here? Is it a hell's angel? Well, he's the hell's angel of mobility scooters.

He's a real character in cowish, I don't know. Do you know who? Well, no, I just see him around. I've done for seven years, but yeah, the hell's angel of mobility scooters. He's got sort of American police car lights on the front. It's brilliant. He's got alloy wheels. Pimp my mobility scooter up next.

I want to ask you if you don't mind, and this is up to you whether you want to answer it, but I want to talk about how your life's changed now and moving forward, you know, and you have met someone, and I'm really pleased for you. Oh, thank you. Was that something that just sort of happened? and it took you by surprise and... Definitely took me by surprise. Yeah, it did.

Mainly because I couldn't imagine loving again. Just didn't think, how would that be possible? She became a kind of this sort of rock-like figure who, in some of my darkest hours, particularly sort of early last year when that kind of busy, intense period of support. You know you have that period with grief where for a lot of people, not for everyone,

not for everyone, but for most people, they'll describe having that period where everybody gravitates around you. But as life carries on, it begins to go the other way, and it becomes a lot quieter again. It's not the people have forgotten you, but they have to get on my life. Yeah. And she was always, I just remember in some of these really bad nights

where I'd probably, you know, I had drunk too much, and that was always the worst thing to do because it wouldn't... What drinking? Yeah, well, it took the pain away for a while. It depends on what you describe as an alcoholic, I think we all get into the dangerous territory thinking, well, an alcoholic is someone who literally thinks about a drink first thing in the morning. I never did that.

Yeah. But I definitely got a drink problem. But you were drunk in secret, didn't you? Yeah, but then we were going it alone at home then, so there's no one to check on me. No one to say don't. The problem was it would take the pain away, probably for a couple of hours, that sense of loneliness and the pain of grief and everything.

But then in the male storm of emotions you're dealing with, adding alcohol into the mix it was like setting fire to it and it would take you to take you to a very dark place it's matches and gasoline alley that one isn't it yeah she was always you would always pick the phone up and it's not saying that others didn't

because they did but she was the one who always did I mean I remember starting to develop feelings for her she is different to Gemma but there's also lots of similarities he's an incredibly compassionate woman she's an incredibly kind and she really struck up an amazing relationship with Ethan and that

was that was so important to me I was very careful about how she sort of became part of... Introducing her and all that stuff, yeah. And I'm very aware that, you know, my vicar David said there's really two responses to going through what you've gone through emotionally. You either shut yourself down so that you can never be hurt again. Or you open yourself up to the possibility of losing again. And he said, you've opened your heart to someone else. And for me, the moment at which I thought, I'm going to fall in love with this woman.

I am falling in love with it was father. day last year. You know, Father's Day had not been anything massive. So this is Sonny Loc. Oh, are we going over here? Yeah. I'm following you. Thank you. So, after Dean's farm, the next house along is in Sonning and it's George Clooney's. Shut up. Yeah. He bought here a few years ago with Amal. George Clooney! And he was, I know that would get you excited. And he was seen quite a lot. That'll get you turfed out the area. He was seen quite a lot, but I don't think he uses. I mean, they did a multi-million pound renovation on it. They built a theatre in the garden, the gym.

Right, George Clooney lives near here. It was much excitement in Sonning when he turned up. I'm not surprised. That was some, many things I feel sad about. Yeah. I said to Gemma, she said, oh, I so hope we see him one day. And I said, look, the amount of times the school run because Ethan goes to school in Sonning,

just the law of averages at some point you're going to clock him. You'll see him, yeah. I thought the irony will be literally the week after she goes in the first day, taking about the school, George, we walk through the village. You were talking about Father's Day, by the way. Yeah, so I wasn't kind of, we'd never made a massive thing of it. And Doreena and Ethan had sort of plotted a day. So she very kindly took me out to lunch in Marlowe.

And she, as an artist we both know, it's called Charlie Macassie. If you're on Instagram, he's well worth a follow. It's just an amazing pictures. And she'd asked him, she knows him tiny bit from the church in London she was at, whether she'd do a couple of pictures for me. They were based on two photos of the three of us. And he's done these two amazing drawings, and both of them, they're kind of impressionists,

but you can so tell it's Gemma and Ethan and me. And it's like this angelic form above us both. It's incredibly powerful. I thought that is so amazingly kind. She got a book that her and Ethan had done for me. And then we had this lovely afternoon at the Fun Fair. That's the water drain through the lock. For the first time, I feel happy.

and for the first time I think I think I'm going to fall in love with her and it's been amazing you know what as well I think it's because it potentially I know it sounds weird

but I think those are quite it's quite potentially daunting for her and it takes a strength of character in a way you know and a generosity of spirit to say

okay she's always going to be part of our life in a way, you know? Yeah, I think she's got an incredible strength in it that she doesn't always see in herself and yet I see in her and now as, you know, my family, Gemma's family and friends have got to know her, they all see it as well.

We're now going over the weir and there's been so much rain, this will be... This is like Niagara Falls. Yeah, well, come on. I don't get out very much. It's six foot high. You used to present Blue Peter. You're used to go into these places.

my sister said to me um someone doing some DIY they're not they're not punching moment let's walk come on i'm going to do the touch i mean the DIY it was so badly timed um i know it's not right mate but please we're trying to do an emotional podcast here with a grief club people you're putting in french windows but no you know my sister said to me at one point we didn't really talk about her going and not being here that wasn't her way She didn't want to do that when I'm gone. There wasn't time, you know, but she did say something to me. She would sometimes turn around to me and just say something and then return to something practical.

And she said, when I go, she said, I really worry that Adam will fall bad about meeting someone. This makes me cry even thinking about this. And she said, but I really want him to. She said, so tell him it's okay. I'm going to cry about that. Because it makes me really happy that you have. Yeah. Yeah, and I didn't have that conversation with Gemma.

There was no time. But I want you to know, I suppose. I feel emotional because I can't predict what Gemma would have said, but she struck me, it was weird when I read your book. She reminded me of my sister in a lot of ways. And I think, I really believe she would have been happy for you, Simon. Do you know what her biggest worry would have been for me personally? I don't think she'd have had any worries about.

me being a solo parent or even. I don't think she would have done but she would have worried about Simon on his own. It might be for one person, they lose their other half and they don't ever want to meet anyone again and do you know what? That is absolutely totally fine.

But for others, they will want to experience love again. You know what? What I found in all this is when you go through something like this, you understand in a much more profound way the heart's ability to love. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because in the same way, I mean, I don't know what this is like. The parents have we only had Ethan. I say only, he's a massive blessing, but we were able to experience what it's like to have a second or a third kid. But I know that parents will sometimes wonder as the second child approaches. How am I going to love them as much as I love my first?

But you do. I've really enjoyed our walk, Simon. I feel I've really got to know you. We've got to know Reading as well in Cavisham. I mean, the tour... Certainly in terms of the... has been phenomenal. Duck, Swan and Geese population.

And I'm really happy for your future because I think you've been doing some presenting, I know. Yeah. Is that something you want to keep doing? Yeah, I want to carry and doing what I'm doing. It just, I feel like with a lot of life now, it's going to be different. Right.

You know, that when we talked a lot earlier about not making big decisions very early, but I did have to make a decision on Sky. Yeah. And I just felt for a number of reasons that almost like when Gemma died, that chapter came to an end. It didn't have to, but it came to an end.

Like, we got married literally four weeks after I joined Sky, so she was a constant throughout it. And those panic attack moments in those last few weeks are working, one of the biggest reasons I was able to get on air is being able to pick up the phone to her. That voice has now gone. The biggest thing of all is, I could not swear this away,

how it would work with Ethan. You know, when his first worry that he expresses on that first Saturday without her, is what happens to me. at weekends where that was when most of my work happened. I understand that. You go, do you know what? He's been dealt a really, really big blowing life.

I don't want to be absent for him at those key times. And actually the football season in terms of Christmas, you're massively busy. Once Christmas Day is done, you've got games pretty much every day. Easter, again, really busy. The summer now, as we're talking, this would normally be my seven or eight weeks off, which were great, apart from the fact that about a week after Ethan breaks up for his six-week holiday, the season. is beginning to kick in again.

But when Gemma was here, it worked. Now it's like, well, I don't want him to spend five weeks with summer holidays being palmed around people and I fit in, you know, life with him when I can. Do you see yourself, I mean, you get asked to talk a lot about, you know, grief and how we process it and handle it. Yeah. Do you see yourself doing that sort of professionally, you know, a bit more? I don't know.

I think one thing I don't want to. to become, without trivialising everything to me, I don't want to become Dr. Death. Yeah. I just don't, every time people see me popping up, and I go, oh, here we go. You know what, I caught, I had to do a talk recently and I said, yeah, it's me, griefy, at grief pace. That's brilliant. I love that.

And people again, I mean, look at your reaction, because you can, you put, you can do that. What did they look? What did they just look at you, like, what was that? Yeah. And I got, okay, you probably lost someone, the ones you're loving. But the majority of people sort of got it because I think when you, this is the thing, you know, you're funny. You be making me laugh. And you want to say to people, it's okay. Yeah.

We can make jokes about it. If it's not okay and you go too far, I'll tell you. Yeah. In terms of work going forward, I don't have to rush into it. I just think, I think like everything, it's going to look different. And I think it's important because for me now, you've been dealt this. The only question now is what do you do with it? Whether I like it or I don't, I'm creating a new life.

It's a new chapter. My bigger passion in terms of what I might do is the kind of the whole area of men and mental health. But grief plays into that. It's a big part of it. That was a really hard thing in the weeks after Gemma went because what happened to the depression and anxiety is I was still having a panic attack. But when you're really down, as my doctor would say, there's no way any more we can tell.

What is just about the grief you're going through? and what's to do what you were going through before. It became impossible to tell. Well, I always compare Groove to a rock because you lift it up

and all these bugs come out. All this shit that's been underneath there, all your life perhaps. It's just stuff emerges and you have to learn to deal with it. We've got to the beautiful Richard Curtis

farmhouse. You're over-wracking it massively. Simon, I've loved our walk. Have you enjoyed it? Yeah, I loved it. Because I often bike around Reading or go on my scooter or run, so you don't take as much in. We saw so much. We saw so many ducks that wanted to eat you.

He looks slightly traumatised. He's shivering a bit, but that's because he's an urban dog. He's been de-urbaned. I think I can give you a hug because I think you're sufficiently literate not to shy away from that. It's been a pleasure. It's been lovely. And oh, I must ask before I go, are you going to get a dog at some point? Do you know, I think long term I will, there's the cat to consider.

Ethan's very protective of Tilly. And I think it's just about working out life going forward. Has Ray sold you on dogs? Yeah, but I think he's beautiful, he's cute. I like, I'm a bit of a Labrador man. I want something that's going to... Good day to you, Simon. Bye-bye.

Thanks for coming. How dare he. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes. Thanks.