Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Susannah Constantine

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

This week Emily headed to West Sussex for a walk with Susannah Constantine and her dogs Fern and Rocco. They chatted about Susannah’s early life when she dated Princess Margaret’s son, her TV partnership with Trinny Woodall and her new book, Ready for Absolutely Nothing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Susanna was on Strictly Come Dancing with Anton. It's funny, you look up Wikipedia. Yeah. And it says, you know, Anton's worst score ever with Susanna Constantine. The only time he got knocked out first with Susanna Constantine. The lowest score he got an ex was with Susanna Constantine. Oh. This week, Raymond and I popped to West Sussex to visit.

fashion guru, presenter and writer Susanna Constantine, and her two dogs Fern, a Parson Russell Terrier, and Rocco, an Italian greyhound. Susanna is widely known for her TV partnership with Trinny Woodall, but she had the most extraordinary life before that, kind of as an original it girl and royal girlfriend when she dated Princess Margaret's son, David Lindley. She's endlessly fascinating and hilarious,

and she's also written a brilliant memoir called Ready for Absolutely Nothing, which I couldn't put down. It's totally unfiltered and just birthed, with incredible anecdotes, a bit like her really. Susanna took a while to warm to Raymond, I'm not going to lie, but by the end she was cuddling him and she called him one of the few small dogs I can actually tolerate. I think it might be the greatest compliment he's ever had.

I'm going to stop talking now and hand over to the fabulous woman herself. Here's Susanna, Anne Furn, and Rocco and Raymond. Where's Rocco? Rocco. Okay. Huh, I've got a good vibe about these dogs getting on. Yeah, I think they're fine. you? I think they're quite sort of old school gents your dogs. Yeah, but it's funny because

they're not so used to meeting other dogs. I mean, look at them. I mean, they are collectively, those three dogs are the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Raymond, Rocco and Fern. I mean, he is, Raymond is a floor mop. I think he's found his people. No, he's really, he's, he's ridiculous. Look at him. Funniest thing, some brillo pad on legs. And you know, normally he goes on these walks with these big Labrador's taking giant strides. Whereas what I love about your dogs is they're not going to be doing that. Where's funny?

How fun? Where is she? There. Oh, there you are. Good girl. Oh, you're a good girl. You are. Oh, it's beautiful here, Susanna.

I know. It really is so lovely. God, I could never, ever live in London again. Really? No. I'll just find it so... Oh, no, is he doing a little poo? Good boy.

Is that okay? Yeah, of course. Come on, Ray. Yeah, I love going to London, but the only reason I really love going to London is because I get so excited about coming back home again. We're in Sussex, and I should tell you who I'm with. I'm with the very wonderful Susanna Constantine.

I could talk to you for about 10 hours about your absolutely brilliant book. Thank you. Ready for absolutely nothing, which I was. Ready for absolutely nothing. It's a memoir. It's so brilliantly written. It's so funny. First, Susanna, can you introduce this formally to your two fabulous dogs? Okay, well we have Rocco, who... has one brain cell and is supposedly an Italian greyhound, which we didn't even know what that was, but he was born at the right time and close by, and he's my youngest daughter Cece's dog. And he's black with little white paws, really kind of, he looks like he's got a thyroid problem

because he's got sort of sticky out eyes. And then we have Fern. who is a Parsons Jack Russell. Come on, Raymond. Come on, you little git. Go on. Go on, Fern. Show him the way. Yeah, and Fern is my son Joe's dog.

And we had two labs, but they're God's dogs now, sadly. So it's just these two. But I've always, always, always had a dog. Never in my life if I not had a dog. Let's go back to your childhood and talk me through your pets with your dogs when you were growing up. Yeah, the first dog we had was a Yorkshire Terrier called Kimmy, who actually looked a bit like Raymond, funny enough. He was very hairy and he was kind of like my protector, although he could never be any, would never be any use to all. but he, in those days we had a house in London

and I'd be put out in the front garden unattended except for Kimmy in my Pram who looked out for me. So he was the first one and then Kimmy sadly died. Then we have Mumfey, who was a Maltese terrier. Oh shut your mouth. We had a Maltese terrier called Mumpfey who was very clever and very scruffy and then I got piglet who was a daxon oh fuck Rocco he gets completely over-excited rogo here was he posing what's he doing

Raymond come on here come one little man so yeah so we were talking about you yeah then I got so I have piglet and then um I got from Battersea Dogs home, got a dog called Archie, who was, I think we all have, people who dog lovers have one dog that stands out and you'll never repeat that relationship. And that was with Archie, who was half corgi, half lurcher. And he was beautiful, but he was the cleverest dog. And, you know, like so many dogs, can be he was telepathic you know he knew what I was feeling and but he would

always find me wherever I was so I remember when we were living in London we lived in Battersea Trinie and I had just moved to offices so he didn't he'd always came with me everywhere he didn't come to work that day then he'd gone for he would let himself go for I just opened the door and he'd take himself for a walk in Battersea Park he'd wait at the zebra crossing for cars to stop and then he across the zebra crossing on his own and go into the park. We had a mother's help at the time because I was working so much. And she'd taken him for a walk and he disappeared.

She called me up in such a panic saying, Archie, I don't know where he is. I can't find him. Anyway, Trinney and I were in our new office in Notting Hill. And I went out to go and get a sandwich. And there was Archie sitting on the doorstep. He'd never been there before, but he'd never been there before. He'd found his way across London, I don't know his route, across the park and found his way to me. I mean, isn't that just unbelievable?

And he was an amazing dog and everyone remembers. He came, remembers actually, came to concerts with me. He never needed a lead. He'd come on the tube with me, down the escalators, just sit at my feet on the tube. tube, lay outside. Every time, you know, we had a child, one each time we had a child, he'd wait out, he'd sleep outside their door and protect them. He was such a great dog. And then... Because they've become like witnesses to every moment of your life, don't they? And they're silent witnesses. Yeah. You know, I said to things in front of a dog, I wouldn't even say in front

of a partner, like, or talk to myself. Yeah. You know, it's, um, it's, it is a really intimate relationship yeah it is it is it's very I could never not have a dog but he was really special and these two are lovely but but I don't have I want to get I want to find another rescue dog and I remember a friend of mine said when you go to Battersea just look for a dog that's sitting quietly and that's what I did with Archie who's just sitting quietly and it was love at first sight. So I want to go back to your childhood because to the outside world it would seem like an incredibly extraordinarily privileged childhood.

But I get the sense that it was, it wasn't without his problems. I mean, it was an incredibly privileged childhood. You know, I grew up. in a very privileged environment. That's just how it was. But because my family life, or my mother, was severely bipolar, I never really knew what was going to happen day by day.

And we were quite isolated. I had one friend at the time, and I was very shy. So my main relationships growing up were with my animals. So it was with a dog, was with Kimmy and then my pony dandy and they were enough they were more reliable and more constant and would listen without judgment

and it sounds ridiculous but that's how it was and they gave me a purpose in life you know looking after them putting their needs before my own your parents were they weren't aristocracy but they were very They were upper middle class. My father would like to have been part of the aristocracy.

And it was a very old family. Both of them came from very old families, but there was no title or anything. You know, my dad was part of the mercantile classes, really. So there was, you know, there was lots of money around. But they were never weirdly, my parents were never kind of extravagant. They just, you know, they got what they needed.

And then my dad was an amazing collector of antiques and paintings. And he had an incredible eye. He was a real aesthetic. So that's where his money went. He was like a shopaholic of antiques. But everything was incredibly comfortable. It was always quality, not quantity. Yeah.

With him. but we were very very very lucky to have you know grown up in the environment we did and you lived most of the time as a lot of people of your class and circle really did then you had your country place and then you'd spend a week in London really yeah and that was in south kensington you had yeah in pell and place like a little regency white stucco regency house house which we considered to be quite modest but you know today you look at it and you're fucking hell that was such a place so we were there during the week and then every weekend we go up to Lincolnshire and holidays and half terms would all be Lincolnshire and that that

for me was home you know the weeks were you just sort of had to get through I had to get through before going back home to the priory in Lincolnshire. That was connected to the Duke and Duchess of Rutland. Yeah, that's right. We didn't own it. We rented it off the estate, but we lived there for 45 years. We rented it for 45 years. And the reason it was such a home was because we had this incredible housekeeper. Mrs. A. Mrs. A is my mother. You know, she died sadly last year, but I always, I thought,

and it's a terrible thing to say, but it's the truth, she was my mum. And, you know, I love my own mother, my biological mother, but Mrs. A was constant. She was always there. she was so wise, so level-headed, the most amazing cook. She never went away. I get the impression there was almost a sense of you being slightly handed over.

Yeah. Are your parents? My parents not only pay people to look after my sister and I, but also to love us. And, you know, if we were bathed and watered and fed and received love, they were happy. and that gave them the freedom to go and do whatever they wanted. But I think, you know, that was very, very, it suited my father perfectly, but my mother found that very difficult. Is he?

Yeah, because she, you know, she was so maternal, but my father was quite controlling, and she had to tow the line with him. But I think she found it very difficult being away from her daughters, very difficult. I suppose it was, you know, a classic patriarchal setup due to the time and all that kind of stuff. But I suppose when you add status and money into it, you get to make even more decisions. And so throw your weight around even more, I always feel a bit.

Yeah. Yeah, because you don't need to rely on anyone else. You know, in my relationship, my marriage, I have to give as much as my husband gives. You know, this is a partnership. I'm not going to, and my husband doesn't expect me to just be a housewife. He expects me to work. Yeah, that's really interesting about your dad, that I can sort of see how the money and the privilege almost isolated your mother further.

Yeah, I haven't thought of that, Emily, but you're right. Because that's what money buys you. Yeah. Is seclusion and a cloistered life. It buys you the ability to be completely and utterly selfish. That's what it does. My father, as much as I loved him, as much as I respected him, he was unbelievably selfish.

It was all about him and his needs, and he came first always. And he had the finance to be able to implement that. And was your mum, was she a kind of society beauty as they were before then? Yeah, she was. I mean, she wasn't a society beauty. She was definitely a beauty. You know, my father loved beautiful things. And she was his greatest acquisition.

And he kind of shone in her reflected beauty, if you like. And he was, he needed her. You know, he wasn't someone who was comfortable on his own. He needed her by his side, so he then could shine. then could shine, which is kind of, the two kind of contradict each other. You know, he is a man who's incredibly selfish, living his own life, doing what he wants, but he couldn't do it on his own. And so he, you know, when mum got really ill and her bipolar disorder, a man has started

to manifest itself, he was completely, well, he was in denial that it was affecting her, but he's obsessed with her illness. and he was also a terrible hypochondriac, so he'd read up on it. But it's almost like he was reading up on it as a topic that had no bearing on him whatsoever. Sort of intellectualising, almost. Yeah. Yeah.

And when you grow up with a parent who suffers from mental illness, particularly when it's undiagnosed, it makes you quite hypervigilant and keen to control the illness. environment for the parent perhaps where you're nothing I need to make sure nothing yeah you see I never felt that and I think that's because I had a sister who's six years older than me and a and we have Mrs. A so I was kind of relinquished of that responsibility but I was a watcher and so I was always watching what my mum was doing and

And I think that's why I found it so difficult being sent. Well, I know it's why I found it so difficult being sent to boarding school because I was unable to monitor. And I was doing the monitoring completely subconsciously. I didn't realize I was doing it. And what sort of, what in terms of just how she would be or her behaviour or what moods is? Well, it depended if she was on a high or a low. You know, if she was on a low, she'd just sit.

and that was it just sit nothing you know it was like no one was home at all and when she was on a high she would speak so fast

because her brain was motoring at a thousand miles an hour her speech couldn't keep up and then she'd write and it would be just complete scribbles because again her brain

was going so fast and she was literally manic and then became psychotic and there were helicopters landing on the roof and fuck knows what else you know and i choose to look at the positives that my mother's illness gave me and my mother so she was someone who treated everybody the same had respect for everybody you know she was as good friends with the butcher with our local butcher mr taylor as she was with the duke and duchess of rutland you know They would come in and have tea, she'd get everyone together. And, you know, that was the greatest gift that she could have given me and my sister.

And also, it was the ability to live in the present, which, because I've never been someone who looks back. And I've never looked forward to the point of irresponsibility, really. But just living in the moment. Because as a child, that's all I had. I didn't know what the next day was going to bring. I had no fucking idea how she was going to be, whether we'd be going to hospital, to see her, whether we'd be pulling her out of a smoking bed,

whether she'd be catatonic or manic. And so all, because my sister was away, she'd gone to boarding school, and then she went to New York, so it was a bit like an only child. So all I had was the moment I was in. And, you know, that's a great way to live your life, is right now, right here, me walking with you.

Well, Raymond's sort of lazy little fuck and being carried. But this is not a dog walk, is it really, for Raymond? We've got the dog, but we don't have the walk. He's just not cooperating today. There we go. Oh no, look, he's walking now. He responds to Susanna because she gives him boundaries. No, it's because you're going downhill.

Oh, yeah. That's all it is. And so obviously, as you say, you went to boarding school and when you emerged from boarding school, I was really fascinated the way you were writing about how there was really just one pass for you, wasn't there?

As far as the world you came from, your job was to find a good husband. Yeah. No, that was the case, and I remember, you know, I left school and I could have gone to university that my dad said to me, oh darling, you know, that's a lovely idea, but you'd be far better off learning how to make good beef Wellington

than going to university. That summed up my upbringing. We were, you know, and all the girls who were at St Mary's Wantage, which was the shittest school in the world, we were all the same. We were being prepared to step into our mother's shoes. And I, fucking hell, I did not want that. So my rebellion wasn't sex drugs and rock and roll,

a lot of my friends it was in particular drugs heroin I chose to work that was my you know that was my rebellions to go off and make my own money and you went to this you did a cordon-blur cookery course in hilarious yeah there were like three choices weren't they you could go to finishing school finishing school secretarial college or cookery school and I think you chose the best option I think I did I mean I know how to make croissant from school can you believe it? Damn useful. And it takes fucking hours.

But I really enjoyed that because again it was that purpose and it was being, you know, it was a very, very professional school where, you know, all the, all men, young men who were training to become professional chefs. And it was just, you know, it was, it was such a great setting to be in where you're, you know, we'd work as teams and, you know, we'd work as teams and, you know, you know, it was, you know, it was such a great setting to be in. teams and I love you know food is the most important thing in my life and so yeah you came back and then you were living at your parents and you had this dinner party well talk me through the story of how you ended up meeting the queen's nephew David Lindley who dated for five years yeah well I was at school with Edwina Hicks who is Pamela Hicks who is the daughter of Mountbatten, Lord Mountbatten and David Hicks is the interior designer and Edwina, who's very sadly bipolar as well. She was, you know, one of my best, best, best friends and we were having

dinner and I was having a dinner party, which is ridiculous, you know, at the age of whatever I was, 20, 21, in my parents' very grand dining room. And you were still living at home. I'm still living at home and she said oh I want to bring a friend and I said yeah sure and David turned up and I wasn't I fancy someone else but he was a heroin addict sadly so he had no interest in me whatsoever he was just waiting to get into the Lou for his next fix to shoot up and I just found David so easy to talk to and different and for me it was always like finding a different path of consciously finding a way out, towing the line, but always looking for that tributary that went away from, you know, the main course. And he was that, you know, because he had his own

business. He was highly creative. He dressed differently. He had, you know, he was more, not wildly, but he just had a different outlook on life. And I found that really appealing. And we just got on. There was a commonality there. And was it a slow burn or? It was quite a slow burn. I would say it was about a two-week burn and I was known as concrete knickers not because they fell down easily but because no one could get into them. So two weeks was quite quick actually for me and we had our first kiss on top of a ferris wheel at a little village fate in Oxfordshire.

Yeah, and we kind of grew up together in, you know, many ways. I love the relationship you had with his mother, Princess Margaret, because she just seems a brilliant laugh. Well, she was a brilliant laugh, but she was also, you know, she loved to have a good time, but she was also tremendously warm, loyal and kind. And she, like Mrs. A, she made me feel safe. You know, I felt safe in her company. And there was, you know, and she was so unjudgmental.

The only people she hated were sycophants. You know, I was just so lucky to have had her in my life and to have got to know her so well and vice versa. her. And you know, my parents met her. We had a dinner at Kensington Palace and my mom was on such a raging high. And she was, every time Princess Margaret turned to look at her, my mum were curtsy. I mean, she was like this every, like not even five seconds, but every millisecond. She was curtseying and I was dying inside. But Princess Margaret totally ignored that. And it was the first time I saw another adult treat my mum like she didn't have an illness,

not to be patronising or pitying or rolling their eyes. She was, you know, she knew exactly how to handle it. And I was so grateful. You know, it was the first, and it gave me a new respect for my mother, weirdly. I'm just thinking about that now, but I think it did. It's like, yeah, it's not my mother that's presenting. itself, it's her illness. My mother is still there somewhere and that's who Princess Margaret was relating to. When people criticise her, the criticisms tend to, which I find fascinating,

be revolve around her being caustic or acerbic and you think, isn't it interesting that people, the Duke of Edinburgh is sort of celebrated for that. There are books called the Asurbit wit of the Duke of Edinburgh, whereas that wasn't her role, which is why I think it's criticised, How dare she have agency and take up space, basically, as a woman? She was just protecting herself, and she didn't suffer fools. And, you know, the wankers that have that opinion of her saw one side of her, and they deserved to see that side of her, in my humble opinion. It's like the queen was, you know, she was giving service to her.

the Crown and Country and Princess Margaret gave service to her sister and yes she had the freedom to carve out you know her own life in hidden corners but she too had a responsibility and that was to the Majesty the Queen Princess Margaret not only comes over as sort of as you say a nice warm slightly maternal figure for you. Oh, totally maternal, yeah. But there's also, the sense of her being very, just get on with it, no nonsense. Oh, she was so practical and she was not phased or embarrassed by anything. Another reason I loved her. And I have, that's something I learned to try not to be. Oh, Rocco, shut your mouth. And anyway, we were going round every summer, she would organise these kind of tours around a famous

Hello. Hello. I'm a famous London landmark and we were at Greenwich and I, after kind of in the middle of lunch I really needed to go and do a poo. So I went and I was did a poo. It was quite big. It wouldn't flush. I was thinking what the fuck am I going to do? All these people, go away.

All these people, you know, they're going to come in and they're going to know it's me because I've been away from the table for so long. But Princess Margaret, God bless her. came to find me and I was still kind of sitting on the loo thinking with my pants around my ankles thinking what am I going to do with this poo and she kind of said you know it's like darling just go and get a knife and you'll have to read the book to find out what happened and how she dealt with the drain blocking poo so she was there and then again in must I passed out and pooed myself and she was there to mop up the pieces for that too. No, no

nonsense, just get on with it. Oh dear, poor Susanna, she's shot herself and then her back up was Jerry Hall so that wasn't such a great moment. You didn't end up, you and David obviously didn't end up marrying and I get the sense that you were, well you were very honest about this, that you were based waiting for him to commit at that point. I was and he wouldn't so I ran away to New York thinking he's going to miss me and then I'm going to come back he's going to ask me to marry him and he didn't and so it kind of fizzled out. Fizzled out. Is it hard breaking up with someone like that?

Well I think it's hard for anyone, you know your first love. I mean it was a kind of like a love affair with L plates. It's like you're learning how to have a relationship with someone. I suppose... It is very hard because it's like, you know, you're... You've left home, you've flown the nest. You know, I've flown the nest, finally, you know. And you...

It's like you adopt your boyfriend's family. I know, but what about when it's the royal family? Well, to me, I mean, genuinely, you know. she was just my boyfriend's mother. That completely came from her. That's what was hard. And it was, you know, you get into a routine and we go away for weekends

and they would come up to the prairie or we go to Royal Lodge or... And so all that goes. And it doesn't matter who you're going out with. That goes. And I think that's as hard as splitting up with a boyfriend. You know, it's kind of everything else

that comes with your boyfriend. and their family, their friends, their, you know, home, everything. I think in some ways for a lot of people, if that relationship broke up, they'd feel, oh my God, all my, my life's kind of ended, because I subsumed myself into that person's life. But I feel you were always very much your own person still. Yeah, I think I've always been that. And again, I didn't realize at the time.

But I think I really, I think I always have been. I think I'm someone who's very happy on their own. Are you? I don't need people at all. I really, in fact, I find it hard to be surrounded by a lot of people, unless it's work-related. Yeah. I'd much rather, my absolute happy state is being,

is solitude, isolation, and being completely alone. So I think maybe that's why I don't know. And you obviously met your husband. You had a really kind of love at first sight thing with him really, didn't you? When you met him at a party. It was such a fucking cliche. You know, it really was love at first sight. And, you know, I've had that with other people, not just, I mean, the person I had it with before Steve was Jake Shears from the Sitter Sisters.

Raging homosexual that he is. But I fell in love with him. There's no other way of looking at it. I knew I was never going to fuck him, but I fell in love with him. And I felt the same with Steen. I fell. It was instant, but it was more than, you know, I just, you know, you know, you know, I knew he was going to be my husband.

And then we started talking at this party. And three hours in, he said, he mentioned his father, Peter Bertelson. I was like, you're shitting me. And he'd worked for his father for four or five years, eight years previously when, because Peter had backed Alistair Blair, designer and John Galliano, Richard James, Patrick Cox, Catherine Hamlet. And I'd worked for his dad, so I knew his dad really well and his mum. So it was in the stars and he was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life. but just so solid again

just himself he wasn't impressed by anything, Steve nothing and you were I suppose quite a lot to take on not I don't mean that

please don't think I mean that in the oh no I don't take it like that at all you were a lot to take on well I had a bit of a history yeah and you had a profile and everyone knew who you were and he was really embarrassed by that Steen. You know, he was working for Hill Samuel at the time and he did not tell anyone.

He did not. We would go to a party and he'd come, you know, he'd never go to a party with me in the beginning because he was too embarrassed to turn up with me. So he'd come half an hour later and we'd meet there because he didn't want to be seen with me because he didn't want to be, have the label of going up with some kind of socialite twat. We should say career-wise as well, you'd been working for Alistair, this design, you'd gone into fashion, hadn't you? Yeah, I mean, I'd gone into, not into fashion, I mean, it just happened to be fashion, but I've gone into fashion to get a job. And my job at the time was literally, you know, Girl Friday. And then it kind of grew.

Now you'd be an influencer. Now it would be- But that's so exactly right. You'd be paid of fortune as a brand ambassador. was smart enough to see here's a girl never had a fucking job had no education but she had a good address book and she was known in the newspapers and I was the right person about Alistair most people probably know I had no experience and tall my father-in-law just and he Peter Bertelsen Danish he more than anyone changed my life oh how lovely

he gave me an opportunity to work he gave me purpose if I hadn't you know he employed me and if I hadn't been good at the job he would have fired me but I wasn't I was I was good at it and I work bloody hard and because of that I then everything went on you know that that was the start of my career that was the start of me being independent that was the start of me getting away from my family that was the start of me appreciating the value of family through him not my own family and you know I have so much to thank him for and I wish he was still around he was an amazing amazing larger than life difficult man but just amazing so yeah thanks O P.B and then your

career obviously massively took off in your sort of And the 80s and 40s, really? Yeah, we were like, it was just off. I got married at 32, and it was, I remember Steen saying to me when we got engaged, she said, don't think for one minute you're going to be relying on me for money. You've got to go out and work. And that was red ragged a ball. And I thought, okay, you fucking watch me, you ****.

And I did. And it was just everything. But that's why you married the right person. I did marry. And you know what? Yeah. If someone had said that to your mother. I know she had mental illness

so I'm not saying oh she would have been fine but what she was also lacking was purpose. Exactly. And isn't it amazing how you know I know you've suffered from anxiety and we know you will go through things but sometimes it is helpful

to have that focus. Totally and you know he's the last person I can take any criticism from but he's the only person I'll listen to because I trust him and he's always annoyingly right. And when your career took off with Trinney, watching your career and the success of what not to wear and all the other stuff you did in the books and the other shows,

and I suspect inside there was, you were probably feeling, there's probably still a sense of imposter syndrome and, you know. Do you know what? There never was, actually. There never was imposter syndrome. It was, it just sort of happened. Did you not, did you never have imposter No, I had more, it was more, I think looking back, I wasn't, I was, gosh, don't get me wrong, I'm so grateful to have had the career I did, but for absolute certain sure I could never have done it without Trinney. But everything kind of just sort of happened. It didn't, we didn't manufacture anything. It just sort of was on its own trajectory.

and we well certainly I it was it was just a job it was just a job I wasn't aware of the success we were having or the impact and because I don't look back I still don't think that

at all it was a job it was you know we were making really good money and for me the most important thing was that we were helping women and making women feel better about themselves. And that I never felt imposterous about.

You know, that was something really valuable and it gave me a huge amount of self-worth to be able to help other people. How did you feel about fame? I didn't feel anything. I hate, you know, being on television is for me, I mean, it was hard to begin with live TV. It was like, you know, absolutely.

terror but then you get used to it and it was just being else it was just doing your thing on television it was just the focus wasn't on the camera the focus was on the woman or man that you were helping I didn't even think about the cameras and then you know fame I didn't think about fame either you know I didn't sort of seek out fame you know it's very easy to be well known and avoid all that shit It's very easy. You just don't buy into it. You just get on with your life. You don't go to walk down every red carpet, which is the most ridiculous thing to do. And, you know, we knew who we were, so we were able to handle it. You know, if it had happened to us when we were in our, you know, early 20s, I'm sure it would have been a very different story. But even, you know, we're talking, whatever, it's 15, 20 years ago. And the kind of media was so did.

different then. It was less immediate. It was more you were able to have some sort of control over it. You know, Trinney was very much the more memorable one. And she, you know, I could sort of stand behind her. I didn't, I'm not good at being the front runner in anything except for writing. You know, I don't want to be the one making decisions. I don't want to be the one in the spotlight. I don't want to be the one in the spotlight. I want to be you know I'll take spotlight but as long as I've got part of me covered by someone else and and Trini provided that you know she was much more comfortable with it than I was it's interesting as well that obviously looking at some of the incredible photos and I mean for that that alone you should write that brilliant but they're just snapshots most of them that's what I know Susanna's snapshots oh that was one that uh yeah I had that a litchfield took that of me

But what's interesting is obviously you look like a model in those pictures. Did you consider yourself beautiful? How did you think of yourself? I just thought, you know, I was kind of average. I mean, I really, really didn't think anything of myself particularly. But I do look back now at those pictures and I can appreciate that, you know, I looked pretty, pretty okay. kind of and then I look at my daughter Esme, my eldest daughter, she's the spit of me. And I look at her and I go, fucking hell, you're gorgeous.

And then I think, oh, actually, you'd look like me. So that's a bit of a surprise. But no, I never felt I was anything particularly. I think in a way, though, it's that weird thing, isn't it, that you start to get confidence and you start to love yourself a bit more. frankly in middle age. Yeah, and I think you've just got to be aware of your flaws, your defects. What are your flaws?

I'm codependent. I'm a people pleaser and I can be passive-aggressive. So those are mine. There you go. Are you working on the people-pleasing? How do you work on it? Do you have therapy? No, I'm not going to, no, I have in the past.

No, I'm not going to stop being a people-pleaser. You know, I can't. It's much more important to me. You know, I will be friends with someone if I think they like me. It doesn't matter what I think of them. But if I think they like me, then I'll be friends with them. So that's, I don't know if that's kind of massively egotistical. If someone gives me even a chip, it's an inkling.

Yeah. That they disapprove in some way or... How can you be friends with someone like that? Unless you want to win them over. I mean, I had that with Jake Shears. You know, I think he wasn't, you know, who the fuck I was, anything about that. But I was determined to make him like me, and not only to like me, but to like me best in the world. And I did it.

I mean, he probably doesn't like me best in the world, but we are very, very close friends. I'll tell you what... But I worked at that, you know, hard. It's funny, Emily. But isn't it funny? I can't be like this? in my family. Right. What do you mean like this?

I don't know why, like kind of completely open. It's like I'm God and I'm just thinking this now. This is not something that's in the book or anything, but it's kind of almost like I don't think my children will accept who I really am. I don't know. Isn't that what's a weird thing to say? But it's, I find it easier to be myself with other people.

I find it quite hard to be totally, myself with my children because I think they'll be embarrassed of me or you know they'll inwardly be going off for fuck sake mum or I mean I know they love me and I know you know know I had this thing where I called up this um there's this kind of I know what you call not fortune teller and she's this incredible woman in America and Trinney told me about her and she sort of helps hospitals and possibly you know surgeons will call her up and and they'll, you know, say, should I work on this person, will it be okay? So she's really got a gift.

I thought, okay, I'm going to go for it. And the first thing she said to me, and the only thing I remember was, oh, my God, you're a phenomenal mom, aren't you? And that was the best thing anyone has ever said to me. And I do think I'm a good mom. I know, and that's what, you know, a lot of moms say that. But does it? I know I'm a good mom.

I'm there for my kids. but I'm people-pleased with my children too. But can you not, I can see what that is, because if I had grown up in your environment, with a mother that I was frightened of upsetting or I couldn't rely on or I didn't feel stability from, if I had gone on to have kids, my entire life would be dedicated to never making them feel unsafe.

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. You don't want your kids to ever feel, to ever experience the feelings you were. experienced, which is mum's vulnerable. But I tell them that, though. I tell them, you know, I will tell them. And like, you know, when I went public about being an, well, they knew I was an alcoholic. And, you know, that was really tough for them, especially my youngest daughter.

And that was actually the hardest bit to write in the book. I didn't, you know, that, that really did affect me writing about Cici and, and her being my watcher. It's your daughter, yeah. Yeah, and I feel, you know, tremendous guilt about that. But we talk about it, and I, you know, I just said, look, see, you know, the only way I can make amends is by staying sober. But one thing I will say is that everyone in life goes through trauma, unfortunately at some point in their lives. You've been through it earlier, and it's what you went through with having a mum, who's an alcoholic, is going to help you in later life. you know and what I've learnt in recovery I can pass on to you and you can help you

know it can help you in your daily life it can help you to accept the things you can't change and to not worry about tomorrow because you might get run over by a bus so what's the point of worrying about it and so you know but I do feel tremendous tremendous guilt still about that but I can't change it so I I I just need to. Did you have a moment of clarity when you thought this is enough? Yes I did. We were in Cornwall and with Steen's family and our family, his parents and Australian cousins and stuff. We all got shit-faced but because I was like a sponge that was already saturated it affected me much more quickly and I blacked out, fell, broke two transverse processes in

my back pissed myself. I was with my children and Steen and my brother-in-law here took me to bed and I was in such pain physically because of my back emotionally broken. And so the next day I got off and I got everyone around the kitchen table and I said, I need help. I'm an alcoholic and I've been lying to you. I've been drinking secretly. I'd drink three times as much as any of you think and then I asked them or what how it had been affecting them I said I need to hear the truth so they told me and then when came back home and went to an AA meeting the next day and and it was that was like coming home not feeling no first time in years I didn't feel alone it was the first time I was honest about something

in years. How long has it been then since you've had a drink? Come on. Well, I've been going to AA for just over 10 years, and I had two relapses, which were fucking amazing. And but I haven't picked off a drink for seven years. And so you've been writing. Obviously you've written this book,

but it's not your first book, because you've. I wrote loads with Trinney. And she sort of produced them and I wrote them. And then I've written, you know, I've written many articles. And you guys stayed. We're really close friends. Which is lovely. Yeah.

It doesn't often happen after professional partnerships end like that. No, we're very, very, very, very close. We don't see each other so much because she's so busy with her business and has done so phenomenally well. And I couldn't be more proud of her. But I never expected anything. less of her. Were you sad when that ended? Yeah, it was sad.

Yeah, you were. We both were. It was very hard for us. And we'd still, you know, for many years afterwards, well not as many years, but quite a few years afterwards, you know, one or other of us, Trinny more than me. But would get recognised. And it'd be, oh, look, there's Trinney and Susanna when we weren't together. It was never just Susanna or just Trinney. But our, yeah, our friendship, it runs very, very, very. very deep. She's such a loyal person, Trin. Yeah. She's so loyal and I know she would drop everything and I would do the same for her. What do you think Susanna, your friends would say, I like your best

qualities? Such an interesting question. I've never thought about it. I think that down to earth and funny and loving and loving, probably. That's what I'd like to hear. What would you worry, they would say, what would you least like to hear? I'm lazy, although I'm not, but I have a chip on my shoulder about it being lazy. Do you? Is that from your family, do you think?

Yeah, well, I don't know, I don't where that's come from. No, I think that's so flagellation. Oh, look, mushroom. Magic mushroom. Is it really? Yeah. It's a big one. Is that a magic mushroom?

Yeah. I'm sure you know. Microdosing over here. I have never taken them too scared of my dark side. I've never taken them either. I'm terrified of anything like hallucinogenic or... Yeah, me too. Petrified.

I tell you what I do worry about now. Oh. Is that I'm anti-social. We never get to see her. Um... And I worry about not not being... about not being a good enough friend that's what I worry about but then I think the right friendships survived that oh yeah totally don't they yeah totally and I

love meeting new people as well because I do like you start all over again and then yeah you know once you've known someone for a long time there's that kind of transition where you have to make you know the first it's exciting and you know and then it gets a bit boring and you have to make an effort and then it becomes like an old pair of slippers and it doesn't matter. I feel like you're really sort of, you're at peace with your folks now because they're no longer with us, obviously, but I feel like you've got some closure. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't know if I, you know, when they died, both my parents, I didn't cry a single tear. Did you not? Do you cry often? Never. Why not?

I don't know. I cry at happy tears. but I do not cry. And I think, you know, I need to cry, but I think there's so much buried. It would be good to cry, but I don't. I try and make myself cry and squeeze the tears out, but I just can't cry. But then you've obviously,

there's that line in the talent in Mr. Ripley, and I'm not comparing you, by the way, to him. But he talks about there's that dark basement. Yes. And you meet someone and you finally think, I might let you in. Yeah. I feel like you let your husband in. And maybe he was the first person.

You know what? I don't think I have completely. I don't think I've even let myself in. Into myself. I haven't let him in, but he's found his way in. And that's why he's such a good man. That's why I'm so lucky. And that's why, you know, 27 years were still together.

And I can imagine. You know, there's a really interesting thing you mentioned in the book when you're dating Imran Khan. Yeah. Because of course that's what you do when you've broken up with the queens and nephew. You go out with Imran Khan. Yeah, of course. But you said you never, you were in that relationship always aware that you were the lover rather than the loved. You know, I think again, writing this book, I realised and looking back at all the folks,

photographs and the times we had, I realized we did actually have much more of a relationship than I remember. And, you know, it's one of those sort of tropes that we teach ourselves to say. And so you can, you know, you can compartmentalize a relationship in one sentence and then that's it. You don't need to go any further. But, yeah, I was always aware that it. was never going to go anywhere.

So I did protect myself with him. And I remember he wrote me a letter. And he said, you know, the thing is, you never let me in. Come on you. Oh, what a lovely, lovely walk has been with you. I'm sorry that Raymond has been such a lazy sod. He's a pampered London prince.

Oh, you're just very sweet though. I'm glad my daughter's out here because they get oh can we get Raymond can we get a Raymond he didn't last five minutes out here he didn't magic mushrooms

but you know what he would he would last because he'd be he'd get used to it immediately he would be running with me I mean these dogs come running with me the cats come running with me so they think they're dogs it would be his equivalent of

SAS are you tough enough it'd be like one of the have you ever oh we need to discuss strictly because you do mention that in the book and Susanna was on strictly come dancing with Anton was your motivation for doing it oh just why why the hell my motivation was was I'm a celebrity too which I was got kicked out first but I got paid so much money for that that I did I literally did it for the money and poor ITV I got kicked off first and Strictly I did because I had paperback

my first novel coming out so it was very calculated and I'd never watched strictly in my life before and I thought fuck it and I was flattered to be asked and it was a bit of a nothing was going on I thought okay let's do it oh my God it was the most humiliating experience in my life

it was just the most terrifying the most humiliating the most rock bottom period of my life. But I just loved Anton. I loved all the professional dancers are the nicest, most encouraging, sweetest people and with the other contestants

I made some really, you know, lifelong friends and it was incredible to see this whole machine. You know, it was like a kind of fallow garden that was watered, and the whole thing came to life. And I, you know, I wish I had watched it because I wouldn't have, I would have seen what a privilege it was to have been a part of that and not to take myself so fucking seriously, which I did.

Like, well, if I'm not going to win, I'm not, I'm going to hate it. and as I couldn't dance and I looked like a cross between an arning board and a gorilla it wasn't going to happen poor Anton it's funny you look up Wikipedia

and it says you know all it says Anton's worst score ever with Susanna Constantine the only time he got knocked out first with Susanna Constantine

The lowest score he got an ex was with Susanna Constantine. I mean, what an extraordinary guy to go through that humiliation. Forced upon him by me, it was agony. It was like stepping onto the guillotine, the platform of the guillotine and allowing yourself to be executed willingly. Oh, I mean, look, watching that back. I had to watch it back, and I mean, I kind of spontaneously, my bowels liquefied immediately watching it.

Oh, my God, I think I got PTSD after, to be honest. No, I think you can get that from experiences like that. Fucking hell. Come on, Ray. Anyway, but I would love to do it again, because I'd have a different attitude now. And I'd realise that you just got to let yourself go and enjoy it rather than, you know, taking it so seriously, which is what I did. Do you like walking? I love walking because it's so great when it's done and you get back.

Yeah. And you can, you know, it's just so lovely. It's lovely to walk like this. And you just, you're so, again, it's so present and you notice things and you can just let your mind want to walk like this. let your mind wonder and freedom and I love it and you see this here which is quite extraordinary so we're looking at a post on a fence wooden fence and there's so much moss on it oh my god and that means that there's no pollution here isn't that lovely yeah so you go down to Cornwall or Northumberland you'll see it's everywhere and in London you won't find it at all I'm interested that you're good at being on your own I can see

that you're quite self-sufficient person yeah I just I like it's freedom yeah you know when you've got kids are always like ma ma ma ma ma ma ma you know and then you don't see them for ages and you're so excited to see them and then they'll last for about two hours and then but yeah no it's just because it is it's you know it's busy yeah and I do think you know I've often thought about look back at my time with Trinney and how absent we were, especially me with three kids. But my understanding now is that my children need me more now than they did then. You know, you could, a bit like my own childhood in a way.

They were very secure my kids. They knew this was home and there was love and we were doing the best we could. But I'm much more, I do much more for my kids. now in terms of not financially or organising their lives but emotional support. Come on doggies come on come on look you're gorgeous Raymond you can pretend you've walked the whole way now oh he is quite sweet Susanna I have loved chatting with you thank you so am I I've loved it have you have you have you Yeah, it's been amazing. You've asked such good questions and it's just been so natural. Do you know what I mean? It's like effortless.

Listen, let's, we're going to say goodbye. Bye bye. Goodbye. Goodbye, Raymond. Oh, Raymond, I'm actually, I don't like other people's dogs, but I do quite like Raymond. I do quite like you because you're so little and so far. He really is very sweet. I really thought I wouldn't like him. I thought I'd want to kind of pray. You got stuck down a rabbit hole or something. But I'm actually quite in love. I am quite in love with you, Roman.

I don't like little toy dogs, but you are. He's just so lovely to hold, isn't he? I really hope you enjoyed listening to that and do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.