Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Tom Allen

Episode Date: February 3, 2020

This week Emily takes Ray for a stroll in London’s Barbican with comedian Tom Allen. He talks about feeling fabulously different growing up, his strong work ethic and the awkwardness of being set up on dates with friends. For more info on Tom go to tomindeed.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Look at this beautiful old ruin. Please don't refer to me like that. This week on Walking the Dog, I went for a walk with a man whose wit is as sharp as his very dapper suits, the fabulous comedian Tom Allen. Along with Tom's hugely successful stand-up career, he's become a hilarious fixture on TV in the last few years. You may have seen him on 8 out of 10 cats and locked the week,

and he's also the king of the spinoffs, hosting Bake Off, the Professionals, and The Apprentice You're fired. Tom loves dogs. He doesn't have a dog himself, so I took him for a stroll with Ray and introduced him to one of my favourite green spaces in the city of London, Postman's Park, which features this really beautiful Victorian set of memorials to everyday heroes. Tom and I chatted about his childhood in South East London and how he always felt slightly different to everyone else, his strong work ethic and the awkwardness of being set up on dates with friends. It was such a lovely morning, so much so that I think I may have asked Tom to marry me at one point. I mean, I realise I don't tick the right box on the gender front, but imagine that wedding, Ray, in a little bespoke doggy tuxedo. Oh God, I'm getting so excited. I'm forgetting about the podcast. I hope you enjoy it. Here's Tom. I'm going to follow you because you look.

Oh, I look like the sort of person who knows where they're going. It looks so smart. today Tom. I didn't know what to wear. I've got some meetings after this. How would you describe your outfit today? I would describe it as well I like to think Prince of Wales chic circa 1936. So that Prince of Wales, yeah. I'm going to go more specific than that. Yeah. What are your thoughts? I'm going to say human rights lawyer. who you secretly want to have an affair with. Thank you, okay, fine, fine.

I don't think I've ever met a human rights lawyer. They're always so busy, aren't they? They're the dream, aren't they? They are the dream, but do they make any money? Don't you want like a, you know? Are they funny as well? And are they funny? They're going to be serious and all these sad stories

and no bloody dough. Should you go out for dinner? Oh, no, we can't. Because you do everything for free, don't you? It's not very nice, is it? We're not very peacey. So I've met, well I'm going to describe a bit your outfit. I'm with Tom Allen, I should say.

Yes. Who's an absolutely brilliant stand-up, presenter, actor. Well, I've done a bit. And an actor. And he's wearing a lovely, it's Prince of Wales check, is that right? I think technically it is, yeah, a Prince of Wales check. And I'm still, it's a new suit actually. Yes.

So I'm wearing it. Somebody once gave me the advice, which is, I never save anything for best. And so I only got this. Saw it. Do you know what? I was doing the T's and C's on Strictly on the Strictly final. And the T's and C's is when you read out so they get a guest, don't they? To read it out.

It had been, the week before was Basil Brush and the week before that was Angela Rippen. Okay. So, I was doing it, sat there with mum and dad behind Joe Sugg. He had this lovely suit on I said, where did you get it? He told me, I won't tell you all listeners.

And, no, he said Ralph Lauren and I went there and I bought it because I just wanted to be just like him and it was in the sale. That's lovely. Nice shoes. So I've let me off the lead.

I don't know if he's allowed, I better put him on, but we're in a place called Postman's Park which is in, it's sort of Old Street, Central London, isn't it? The city? Yes, I would say, yeah, it's London Wall. Barbican, you're very good.

Barbican, yeah, it's beautiful park I would never have been in a minute. It's tiny, but I think we're, I like it. I like it. The dog's huge in this park. It looks like a great dame. Oh dear. Oh ready.

He's making his mark. He's done a wee. But Postland's park is beautiful because come and look at this, Tom. I'm very impressed. You know all these things. What's this? This is a memorial to heroic self-sacrifice. And a Victorian artist called George Frederick Watts made all these.

And it's the reasons... It's things like people who gave their lives trying to save other people. It's everyday heroes essentially. It's the Pride of Britain, Victorian style. Yes, it is. And isn't it lovely? So you can read what they all did. Someone from the Sapphire Brigade saved six persons from fire in Grazian Road.

But they're lovely and they say his last heroic act and then they ruin it slightly with the Victorian melodrama by saying he was scorched to death. Oh yes, there was a bit of that. But I find this a good place to come and have a little, I don't know, it's quite peaceful. I like it. I've never seen this. They're beautiful, for your listeners. They're beautiful ceramic, or they're tiles. They're very sort of William Morris, aren't there? They're very William Morris.

They have beautiful, yeah, like floral adornments on either side. He's got a lovely coat, isn't he, Ray? Do you think so? Yeah, but he's immaculately groomed with that, having that coat straight to the floor. It's like he's wearing a lovely, like a sort of tued dress. Like he's a bus salon. it looks like he's got like a maybe it's more of a Victorian look he's got a Kardashian bum

yeah he has tell me what's your relationship with dogs Tom I love them and I always think I have a special bond with them for no real reason yes I do love them and I grew up with two Yorkshire terriers and my parents but they we we love them very much the girls Zoe and Abbey they had human names at a time when dogs didn't really have human names and And we love them to bits. My mum was always quite reluctant about them. And then when they sadly passed over, when they went for the big walk, mum was the most devastated of all of us.

And now mum and dad sometimes to look after a dog. And that dog gets a very easy ride. And she, you know, compared to our two, she gets to not just sit on the bed, but lie on the bed like she's a human being who gets into bed. And what's that dog called? She's called Bo. And she's a lovely combination of a chihuahua and a bison free, which I always think sounds like a lettuce.

He just did a circle and you know what that means? Oh, it's dime. It's time. By somebody's casket. Oh dear. That lady looked over. She looked quite sort of no nonsense, didn't she? And she looked over as if to...

She probably lives in the barbecum. Yes. I think she does. She looked at me, Tom, as if to say, I hope you're going to pick that arm. Yes. And it's all very well chatting to your handsome human rights lawyer partner. What about the dogs poo?

What about the... Now we need to find a bin. Come on. There's a little... What's this? This is a museum thing to do with... Oh, is it a museum in your... Oh, lunchtime talks from the Bible.

110. You in? 110 to 140. That's not very long, is it? It's half an hour. I mean, that's a lot. I'm not going to get through in that. Barely covered nowhere in that, will you?

Well, I mean, we need seven. How long does it take him to create the world? Seven days? Seven days? Not half an hour. So tell me, yeah, so we're going to go back to your childhood. We can wander out of this park if we feel too enclosed in it. No, I'm enjoying just as exactly around.

It's got a lovely flower bed in the middle, which I imagine in spring is very vibrant. In a way that you sort of see in seaside towns like places like Easton. Like lots of marigolds, which I've never really liked, but I think I might start liking. I quite like marigoles I like a pansy as well Well you're welcome Welcome to the show So tell me about your childhood Tom

What do you want to know Well you've told me about the dogs Abbey and Zoe Do you know the thing about dogs is They become these I was always quite nervous of the world I still am I obviously am quite nervous of the world

And I think dogs become these receptacles for all our, you know, kind of fear and protection instincts. But a vessel for all this kind of love that we have, the whole family projects all their love on the dog. And I think, yes, I sort of, I remember our two Yorkshire Terriers I always felt very protective of. And I was always quite an unusual child, particularly at secondary school, as you can imagine.

Why? In every way, but sort of not. Like every way that was kind of, that I think people were like, you could just not be weird. But I'd just be interesting people who no one was interested in. I really loved Noel Coward.

I loved Elton John in a way that, like now Elton John's quite cool and has been for some time. But when I was about 10, I just got obsessed with him. And this would have been presumably about... It's about 1994. I just loved all these old albums

and I loved all the kind of... I suppose it was the big costumes and the big outfits and everything. And so I'd come in and listen to my Elton John records and dance around with the dogs. And did you have brothers and sisters? Yes, I have a younger brother. But he's very normal.

What's his name? James. James? I think it's a Jones. Oh, he's like a chauffeur. He was your chauffeur. Oh, there's the police. Oh, there's the police, quick.

He's not on a lead. What if they arrest? Is that police? They're uniform. You might be a city of London, please. Can we ask them? I'm still about their uniform. I'm interested.

Hello. Hi. We're just doing a podcast for the Times. This is my friend Tom Allen. He's a comic. That's my dog Raymond. I'm interested in, well, Tom, you ask, you'll give you the authority.

Yeah, you're city of London police, aren't you? Yes. You've got a different outfit. Oh, it's very nice to meet you. It's really added to our walk. Bye, police. Cheers, bye. Bye.

What lovely, we need it. What are they charming. The one from Essex had lovely teeth. He was having to see. I thought he was. Are you dating at the moment? No, no, too scared. Too scared?

No, but then that's the thing with gays, although I say that, but nobody else seems to have this problem. It's working at who is one? Do you know? So you can't just go, like, so if a straight, if I was a straight woman and I saw a bloke, I wouldn't go, I wouldn't be like, oh, I want, well, no, actually I know some, this is sometimes the problem for some women

that I know who keep fancying gay men. But I find that if I was to start flirting with, they'd be like, yeah, well, we're my wife, and it would just be awful. Or it would be like, you know, like, what would I do? Ask him out for a date. You'd like, what? It would be terribly embarrassing. But I think.

You can't just go up to someone and be like, nice to talk to you. Are you gay? No, okay, bye. Or nice to talk to you. You are, great. Now I've asked you such an awkward question. So tell me, so your childhood, we were talking about. So it was in, I know it's near,

where Will Beckett's man from? It is. It's in the borough of Bromley, London's leafiest borough. And I grew up there. And it's also where David Bowie grew up. Brickston always claims him. He didn't spend very long there. Bromley was what made him. Bromley is the epitome of

polite suburb, suburbia. You know, like very polite, essentially boring. But in a way that actually, as you get older, you go, actually, it's quite a nice form of boring, isn't it? And so I think that fueled a lot of my sense of like, oh, I love Elton John. I like these extravagant people.

Just because it's like, oh, you don't have to be. You don't have to be kind of constrained and worried about what people think of you and worried about not sticking out and worried about, you know, you can take a step out and be outrageous if you want and flamboyant. And your mum and dad, names please? Paul and Irene. I love an Irene. Mom doesn't like her name. She doesn't like it.

Does she have a nickname? No. Irie, no. No, she doesn't like any shortening of her name either. She doesn't like it, but also she doesn't like shortening it. I feel like she knows what she wants, Mrs. Allen. She does, in a way, yes, she does. I gave her some vouchers for John Lewis to go and buy a new sofa

because they were moaning about the sofa. They got a new sofa. I said, this is lovely, where is it from? They said Laura Ashley. So, you know the vouchers are still sat there. It's those little hacks of microaggressions that I like in family life. Yeah, for sure. So, and your dad, was he a coach driver?

He was a coach driver. He retired about a year ago. And he worked in the office before he retired. And he worked until, so he was about 78 when he retired. No, 77 when he retired. He loves being busy. And at the moment, he needs to find something new to do. He needs to get stuff, I don't know.

I was thinking of employing him as maybe some sort of personal assistant. But I don't know if that's... Driver. He's a driver. He loves it. I think that would be great. But I can't sit in the back when it's my dad, can I? This is my car, by the way, this is my dad.

And your mum was... Did she work in retail? She did, good knowledge. She worked in the Army and Navy in Bromley, now a T.K. Max. Much to the Chalgrin of everybody in the Bromley area. There's no longer an Army and Navy, no longer a House of Fraser. Only a TK. Max. Which, as everybody knows, is a Bunfight or a Bumfighter?

I never know quite what the expression is. Well, I went in there once and I remember a friend of mine had made this observation and I've seen it. He said, I decided never to go in there when I saw someone sweeping up clothes and I thought I don't want to buy things. It's like a jumble sale. I wouldn't go to a church jumble sale and go, oh, yeah, well, this is, oh, yeah, that handbag, I'll just buy it. And also I wouldn't go, oh, I don't know what I want today. I just want something. I just, I'd go, oh, I need to buy a shirt. Okay, where do I like, where do I like the shirts when I'm going there to buy a shirt? I'm trying to get a sense of your background because I know you've talked about this a lot in your your stand-up and it's very funny this thing you talk about that you sort of came out different

and your voice is even different to your parents. Yes. And I went to, so when I went to school, people are like, why are you talking like that? Why are you talking like that though? And I'm like, I don't really know. What, do you mind my dad talk like that? No. Why do you talk like that then?

It's like, all the time having to explain it. And I don't know. And the only reason I've got is to go, well, I'm gay. And then people are like, why do you talk about being gay? It's like, I don't know. You just ask me for a reason. So did you feel when you were growing up with your parents, I get the sense, you know, this sort of Noel coward stuff

and the Elton John, what was their view of that? Do you think there was disapproval or it feels like your parents are quite sort of, they'd be the kind of people that would be quite accepting and tolerant. They were otherness. Not that that's other, I think that's normal. No, no, and I felt very other about at all. They were a bit like, ah, what are you got to put a picture of Elton John up in your room for?

Oh, you're going to put a picture of him up? Oh, no. Oh, what do you want to? Oh, God. I cut pictures of like Elton John out of Sunday supplements and things. Because you couldn't buy a book. Because at that point, it was like when Athena was open. Do you remember that?

I had this idea of you going for the telegraph or the Times, though. Yes, we sometimes got that. Not smash hits. Never smash hits. And we did sometimes get the telegraph when Dennis from next door didn't want it anymore. And we'd get that. Or if Dennis was away, we'd get, and it was too much bother. Was Dennis and neighbor?

where everyone aspired to. Is he a bit keeping up with it, James, is Dennis? Dennis from Dennis and Jean is, in a way, yes, he is very learned, very knowledgeable man. Always encouraged discussion and debate in a very intelligent way. Whenever we went around, which I enjoyed. But, yes, sort of the otherness of it was very difficult. Because, yeah, at that time, everybody was, like, what are this called? Like, create spliff posters?

Do you ever it would be like the Mona Lisa Spillus? smoking a spliff. But it was also like that kind of like Lad culture really which was always so kind of again lad culture was by its nature just so muted. You know so kind of like

don't stick out you wear an Adidas track suit and the most extravagant thing you can have is like some sort of kooky sunglasses and a and a kangle hat. And a gangl hat yeah exactly and maybe the Levi's advert might be quite revealing to you.

Did you always have because you're very snappy dresser and I get the sense it's kind of quite tied up with your identity but I suppose it is it's your self-expression and did you, was that something you always had strong ideas about when you were growing up? Yes, very strong and I was always obsessed with Victorian clothing

and was desperate to kind of, so I'd go around and again this was before it was ever fashionable or there was ever like steampunk or like vintage or anything like it's terms of I'd go around there occasionally there was a shop in Victoria called cornucopia and there was a shop in angel called something like the moons a balloon and then I'd go around and I'd love to go around there

and I'd go on Saturdays when I was allowed out of mine I'd go to like Notting Hill Marck, Elbrate Grove Market and what's the other one? Sometimes Spittal Fields And how old are you then? Sort of a young teenager? Yeah, 14, 15.

And I'd go around and I'd go and buy sort of like remnants of like shirts from the First World War and things that still had like demob numbers in them and my mum would be like, oh don't buy any of that shit from up there, will you? Come back. full of fleas and that oh I'll put it oh I'll don't bring it in the house

don't bring it in the house maybe it's how like league of dental oh it's disgusting and it was quite good because I'd go up there and it was quite good because I'd go up there and I'd go you'd want like a tenor for the shirt

and I'd go will you take eight quid it's quite good at haggling with them for a 14 year old and I'd had my money in my sock because I was so terrified of being mugged I didn't know why I thought I'd be mugged I mean I blended in so well what a lot of people would do

is want the Victorian shirt but feel I better buy the Kangol hat or the caper football jacket because I want to look like everyone else and the idea is a child, especially a young man, you know, standing out is a nightmare. Well, I had this thing where I was like,

part of me was like, yeah, I could just kind of go, I don't want to stand out and I'll just buy the Kangall caps and all that. Kappa tracksuits. Poppers on the side. Why did you need to expose the side of your legs? But I just felt very, violently, in a way. No, I don't want to do that, you know?

And just like, I think you can either go, you come to a fork in the road and you either go, yeah, I'll just blend in, which is effort in itself, or I'll go, basically, up yours to everybody. I'll be who I want to be. And I think you go extremely the other way. And actually, people, I think people trust you more then, if you do that because we go, well, he knows who he is.

I don't know why he's dressed like that. But it's like, I mean, I remember like growing up my mum and dad loved Elton John. But like even people like Boy George as well, who's from South London, you know, a lot of the time you could go, you know, people would be like, ah, why is he dressed like that? What's Boy George all about? But I'm like, well, that's Boy George and it's like that.

And I think people do like a bit of extravagance if you give it to them. You have to do it confidently. You can't ask their permission. You have to just... Well, I think also what you make an interesting point when you talk about that sort of just decisions to just be yourself essentially. And I know like therapists would always say that's about having a very strong sense of self

and some people have that. Some people have to spend a lifetime trying to find it for whatever reason. Yeah. I think I did. I think it took me a long time. I think I probably spent up until I was about 40, depressingly, doing what I thought I should do.

And it actually took me, in my case, it took a sort of series of personal tragedies really for me to, because that, is a wake-up call. So I think the thing is, some people like you are probably born with that, where you think, oh, well, I'm just going to do what I want. And that's... But I do think it is an endeavour, though.

Really? I think my, like, way of dressing strangely or sort of choosing to do a job that's quite odd, in a way, is my way of doing it. But in other ways, like, friends of mine, I was just on holiday with some friends, and they were like, no, but what do you want to do? And I'm like, I don't know. Because actually, so much of life is going, you know, from kids, you're like, don't behave like that.

It's not a nice way to behave, which is correct that we're taught like to behave in a certain way. You go to school and you're basically told, fit into this track or we will shout at you. And so it's very difficult to go, I'm just going to do whatever I want. So for me, a day off is kind of quite troubling. Really?

Have you got quite a strong work ethic? I like to think so. Because I know if I don't, much as I can moan and go, oh, I've got no time for myself. But what I do if I had time for myself, I'd go spiral into a depression almost immediately. I need to have direction and purpose all the time. Otherwise, you get lost in your thoughts.

And I do think thinking is often a saboteur. You know, the right, the thinking or just sort of like being lost in thought is very damaging for me. Is it? Yeah, I think so. Unless you're like Jean-Paul Sartre. Like, what... Do you just want to dress like him? You don't think like him.

Do you... How are you with silence? You know what? I'm getting better at it. because I sort of struggled sleeping in a way. I get to sleep and then I wake up and I have anxieties, anxiety dreams, almost every night. I wake up screaming. No, I don't wake up screaming.

I have anxiety. The lambs, Clarice. I can still get the lambs. But I tend to fall asleep listening to audiobooks or podcasts. I can recommend one. I mean, I don't know if anybody's doing that now. I mean, if they weren't asleep, they will be now. and they

and they but recently I've been trying not to do that and trying not to listen to music all the time because we have it there's a time when you have to rush home from school put on your record put on your Elton John records and be excited and enjoy listening to it

go should I listen to it again or maybe I will and you're always it a bit if I listen to it again will the other people in the house be like oh not this one again so tell me I want to know with your mum and dad

at school I'm getting this idea of you in these sort of slightly wild and wonderful clothes and academic or? Again, yes, very, threw myself into my subjects, very studious, very work driven. In a way, I suppose searching for approval, I suppose, but at the same time going, well, I'm at school, so we may as well do this well. And my dad had always said to me, go into it with a good heart.

Like I'd say, I don't like that. So you've got to do it, so you can either do it hating it, or you can do it and go with a good heart and so I did it with a good heart and actually I was quite good at it. I had a fabulous maths teacher called Mr Cox and he was brilliant and managed to pare everything down. It was very simple made everything very straightforward. You knew good teachers. I had very, had some very good teachers. And did you, was coming out something you did? Comprehensive school. Or did you, you know, was it like a thing you thought about and gave thought to or did it just evolve? A lot of your friends say to me it just happened gradually. For me, I totally knew.

from the age, I suppose, 11, when I was probably getting obsessed with Elton John and Noel Coward, but totally knew, kind of knew from the age of about seven or eight, always knew I was different from the moment I was conscious. But in my teen years, I put it under a rock and put a heavy cooking pot on top of the rock. You know, where people, or what do they do, like, put a rock on top of a cooking. I don't know what that image is. I'm trying to put, trying to see all in a big Lucruise. If only La Coulouse, eh?

Rousseys have made it to Bromley in the 90s. It was an inconvenience. I didn't like it. I didn't. It's very hard to articulate, really. I think it's kind of bizarre, probably, to a lot of people now, when it's kind of something that's openly discussed and celebrated.

But back then, it was something that wasn't discussed. There was no real access to go, to say it's okay. But at the same time, even if someone had done that, I would have gone, no, it's not. And I think as well, I wanted to go, no, this is my thing. I don't want somebody else telling me how I experience it

or how I should feel about it. I know I don't like it. It was sort of weird like that. I can't really explain it. It took a long time. It took a lot of... It was only when I left school and I got involved in the National Youth Theatre

and then I was surrounded with a lot of positivity around it and a lot of positivity generally and I was like, oh, actually maybe it is nice to sort of actually feel a bit happy with yourself rather than feel shit all the time. Let's go up here. This is the podium. We've found our way in.

Come on, Ray. Come on. Oh, this is nice and quiet. parents were okay with it were they? Yeah, pretty much. I mean pretty much I don't think it was a huge surprise but I don't know if it was or not really and I think as well you know they it's sort of again I think it's quite difficult you know well I say that I think a lot of people do have experience of it they were I think they were aware of that it can pose a different a more difficult life than perhaps they would have wanted in points and I think that

at first made it difficult, but then, but since then, they've been very supportive of and it's all been great, but I think, like now maybe it's different. I don't know. I don't know if, I always assume it's different. But then I hear from people and they go, oh no, I really relate to that feeling of people not understanding completely immediately. So we're all loners and weirders, really.

I want to know when you realised you were funny first. When you first made someone laugh and thought, oh, this is good. I think I was always kind of, because I always spoke differently. People were like, oh, look at him. Oh, he's funny. He said the funny thing.

Oh, maybe we should go down those stairs, Tom. Look. And then we can walk through there to the barbican. Oh, yeah. Oh, should we go that way? Can we get... I don't think what's best for Ray. Oh, you're so kind.

Will you be all right on those stairs? No, be fine. So we were talking about when you were funny? Well, I don't, yeah, so I did, sorry, that sounded rather rude. That one time you were funny. That one time you did that funny thing. So I mean, yeah, so I, again, I don't know really.

It always felt quite instinctive. Oh, back on concrete. So come on, tell me about the national youth this. So you decided to go. Did you want to go to university? Because you obviously doing well, I thought I wanted to go to Cambridge. I can see you there. To do history and I could see myself there.

And I was very academic and I studied very, hard and I was very good at it and then I got there to the interview and Sarah Pasco wrote a similar experience so I thought it was interesting getting there and being so overwhelmed by it and also they ask you these questions and I've not really had any preparation for what that was all about or how you should impress them and so I just sort of thought it was just a chat so I'll just respond as though I'm talking to one of my mum's friends there's no pressure and didn't realize like actually those questions are like you've got to answer them in a certain way yeah and also um they and they said they gave feedback and they said

He was a very pleasant young man, but did have a tendency to answer the question to jump in with an answer rather than thinking about what his response was going to be. But then I look back and I think, well, that's what I was taught, you know, to be like personable and to go, if someone asks your question, answer it, be confident in your answers, that's nice, that's what you should do. I think if you're a lot more confident, if you're sort of imbued with that sense of confidence, you go, well, I'll wait a moment, I'll respond when I'm ready.

Do you know what to mean? But also, wouldn't you say it's that very thing which has become a highly useful skill for you? You know, is, I mean, on a panel show, you can't sit there and say, don't speak till you're spoken to. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean?

I've got to think of a sensible thing to say before I respond. Yes. It's funny I notice people clocking you. Do you get recognised quite a lot these days, Tom? I think more so, yeah. But I don't really notice it myself. But if people say hello, I'm always quite delighted. I don't really understand. I mean, it's sort of, it says so much about how needy I am, but I go, oh, somebody, well, they like me, great. I just always, I think it's lovely if people come up and say hello and stuff.

How does it affect you? I sometimes have the experience of going, they'll come up and sort of say, oh, hello, I like the thing you did on blah, blah, and then I think the convention is you go, oh, thank you very much, then you sort of walk off. But what I tend to do, because I am A, needy and B, have a tendency to chat. too much. Hello, children! You see, that's my equivalent of fame. Look at that dog. I think in a way you might have seen people clocking me, probably just looking at the dog. But I do have a tendency to just bore people,

so I'll start talking to them, and then they go, oh, I've got to go now. Of course, I'm sorry. It's when someone says, oh, can I have a selfie? Then it ends with them saying, anyway, it must be getting on. They literally do that. And how did you find drama school, Tom,

So I didn't go to drama school. I was involved in the National Youth Theatre. Yeah. Was that put, so I didn't get into Cambridge. I was like, well, I don't want to go to university. Yeah. And again, I sort of had this kind of contrarian attitude towards everything and just sort of was like,

well, I'm supposed to go to university now because I don't want to go. So I'm not going to go. And my dad was really upset because, you know, no one in our family had gone to university. And I just sort of felt like, oh, I don't really, I don't really want to go away from home.

Isn't that? What is that? That's interesting. that pull of home to you that still is there and I'm wondering what that is. It's quite sweet actually. It feels safe to you, doesn't it?

I wonder if you're a big, I always felt that with my family. I was I suppose if you're a big personality it's quite nice to have a dock. You need a dock where you can come home and feel, I'm going to go out and be big and then I can come home and

just sort of retreat a bit. I think so. When I lived I haven't always lived at home I moved back when I was about 30 so six years ago and at that point I just felt very like I felt very frustrated about I didn't know what I was doing in my work

and in my life I didn't know what I was doing and when I was spending time at home I just felt grounded and supported and stuff in a way that I didn't feel when I was when I was on my own or living with friends and stuff basically my thing is I still live at home and I'm so into saying

people go, have you worked out where have you moved out yet? And I'm like, no. Because most of the time I don't know where I want to live and then part of me thinks should I just try and buy the house next door to my mum and dad or something or, you know, like, or buy my mum and dad's house.

They like that idea. And then do it, because that's very mid-century, very 60s their house. And that I think could look great. But then I'm like, well, then I'll just be living in your house. And they're like, yeah, it'll be fine. And then we'll, we can, and I'm like, I can't buy it.

some good stand-up out of living at home because you did a whole show, didn't you dedicated to... You did a tour. I mean, that was... My whole life. So, do you want kids, by the way? No. I mean, I don't know. Not to sound all Maudlin and self-pitying,

but I do sound self-pitting in Mordland. It was never presented as an option, so it's never been part of the list of life things. Maybe I've changed my mind. But I suppose it is now, isn't it? But that's only quite a recent development, isn't it? It's not in the last five years. But then I know lots of gay people who go,

oh yeah, I want to have kids. And I'm like, well, when did you even? But then some people just do, don't they? Or they have lots of kids around them growing up, which... Well, Tom, I don't think we can get into this bit. Let's go in there. Shall we? We could jump through the bamboo.

Let's do it. Which, I mean... Oh, Tom, I don't... It's a very strong plant. Do you think we'll make it? I think we can do it. Look, you just do this, Tom. There we go.

Oh, well done. Oh, there we go. Oh, well done. We're in the bottom of a tree. We made it through. I'm not wearing my best brog. No, I don't want you to go on the green because I don't want you...

Let's go on the path, Tom. We're on the green, I think. Look at this beautiful old ruin. Please don't refer to me like that. Look at that. It's amazing, isn't it? Central London. Is it depressing, though?

Is it depressing the barbican? Because that's what I think, if I move out, I want to feel like I'm in a community. I want to feel like there's lots going on. I'm convenient to places. Oh, Tom, this is so lonely. And miss my mother. But at the same time,

it's fine. I'm wearing my old wingtips. You're wearing, there's some lovely, there are a bro. aren't they? They are a winterberg no fishing it says here as we approach the lake

you see what I did with that man is how I approached life that is very I noticed it too did you see there? Just slightly abrasively say hello to people and they won't question it my parents always taught me that it's a good that is a good skill like just always act as if you're entitled to be at the table

and it's such a good yes and what a good lesson do you think so yeah you act like that in life When I do, I feel very empowered. But sometimes I question it and then it all falls down. But again, you can't question it. You just have to go, yes, I'm here. Well, now we're trapped on.

Now we're actually trapped here. You know what? We've only got one way out. We're going to have to swim. Look at it, though. It is extraordinary. Do you see? So do you want to explain what it is? It's like a beautiful way, isn't it?

Sorry, I forget we're on a podcast. So we're sort of at the end of, we're in a sort of dystopian, sort of clockwork orange-esque concrete. It's brutalism, essentially. Bridge next to a Roman wall, I imagine Roman. Is it a bit snooty and is it a bit like, you know, people who used to go to the RSC all the time? How dare you. Sorry, other people.

People, you know, people who'd kind of, you know, you just want to have an ordinary conversation about bins and they want to tell you about how they went to see Nicholas Nickleby back in 1982. Story of my life. You went to the National Youth Theatre. You did some acting. I did a bit. I thought, I've said it before. I thought I wanted to be an actor.

Then it turned out I was just gay. And I did like it, but you know, I sort of thought getting involved in theatre would mean I'd meet lots and lots of gay people. But actually, in truth, I didn't. And that is down to two things. One, a misplaced assumption that theatre is full of gay people.

Which at that point it wasn't, It was more full of people who were just... Quite a lot of lads, actually. That is also true. Also, I think there were quite a lot of gay people, but they did not want to interact with me. So there are two truths existing there. Or another staircase I could live on.

It is quite dystopian, isn't it? It is a little bit dystopian, but I think... I like that, though. I just maybe grow to like it. Yeah? Would I get annoyed with it? You see, the thing is I get annoyed quite easily. Do you don't strike me that you do?

You strike me as a very even-tempered type. I bottle it all up, don't I? Do you? Yes. Oh, yes. It'll be a huge breakdown at some stage. But that'll be the book that sustains me probably into old age and then I'll die. That's the plan anyway. It's good to have a plan.

What's your five-year plan? When was your first stand-up gig, Tom? After you left four. I was at the National Youth Theatre's office. Yeah. And some friends of mine, a few people I was working with, why don't you have a go at stand-up? One of them was Charlie Baker,

who is a stand-up now, and he said, why don't you have a go? And I thought it was such a ridiculous thing to do. Again, I like this sort of brazen things like that. Exeter Silk Street. So go on, your first gig, Tom, come on. Oh, yeah, so they said, why don't you have a go at town? And I like the sort of brazeness of it.

I like doing something and going, well, and I was feeling very frustrated at trying to be an actor. Yeah. You're always at the beck and call of other people and basically, basically, the world of acting. A lot of the time just wants posh people. Of course. And posh, striking-looking man. And then, and so I felt annoyed about that.

And then I kind of like the idea, the audacity of it. And again, at that point, I felt like a very blokey world. There weren't really any, there wasn't the sort of alternative scene. Stand-up wasn't like a forum as it's sort of become now for lots of different voices. Yeah. And as a sort of response to it, not being very, seemingly very welcome, I kind of like the idea of sort of bounding into it. Anyway, I did a set and it was terrifying, but I got through it and then I was quite proud of myself. And I did another set and then that was done.

Yeah. And I thought, well, I've done that now. I don't need to worry about it anymore. Did you feel scared though? Yeah. Yeah, horribly so. And then I thought I've got to, I had some newcomer competitions, which I then won. So you think you're funny you want Yeah And that was nice

But in a way it was kind of It was kind of It made it even more terrifying Because then people were like Oh yes good then are you Because you won the competition You better be good And then of course I'd go on and be absolutely rubbish

So I've been doing it for five minutes And I wish someone had just said to me like Do you know what Do you know the person who says this This is Frank Skinner He says it takes 10 years You do up 10 years And then you start to get good

And that was definitely the case, at least 10 years, maybe more. Did you have comics? Were you aware of, did you watch people like Frank or other comics? Or did you sort of? No, because all that sort of stand-up was all really in live environments

and I was a kid. So, you know, we wouldn't go to like up the, watch out. We wouldn't go to like up the creek comedy club as a family. And it's not something your parents were. Well, my mum and dad, my mum. Mum loves comedy. And so I was always brought up watching comedy,

but not stand-up per se. What did she like? So, we would, like, Mom and I would always watch Victoria Wood and love Victoria Wood, and French and Saunders, and I'd be allowed to stay up late on a Thursday night to watch, to watch Bottom and then Ab-Fab. But before that, even as a small child, I'd be obsessed with spitting image and then the two Ronnie's,

and mum would tape all these things for me, and the Pink Panther films and one foot in the grave. You know, I'd be obsessed with all these sitcoms and sketch shows. I think, Russ Abbott, I loved. Anything, I don't know why, I just loved comedy. Yeah. But it wasn't in the stand-up sense, really. It wasn't in, and even Victoria Wood, I suppose,

even though, as Stuart Lee says, she was perhaps the first alternative comedian in the UK, it was very alternative. And so when I was then trying to do stand-up in clubs, It wasn't very forthcoming, wasn't very welcoming to the idea of someone, this like 22-year-old, gay, posh boy who didn't seem to be that posh. Did you make that bar of your act in terms of, did you talk about your sexuality? No. And then somebody went, well, I think he's good. And then I realised, and I consciously didn't mention it until sort of near the end.

But then you've realized people, sometimes in audiences, it seemed, needed to have, weren't comfortable until I said it. Really? Because they go, what are you? They want to go, what are you? It's the same when I was a kid. They were like, why did you speak like that? Why do you speak like that? So then I realised you had to sort of set out a store where you go,

I am this, this and this. And then actually that made it a lot more accessible for people. Yes. To then talk about whatever I want to talk about. But they had to go, well, who are you? And actually, I understood that quite quickly because I suppose where I was from and sort of school experience I'd had.

They sort of want to say to themselves, well, he might be one of them, he's all right. Yes, you want you to be on their terms, I suppose. They, who are these they? They, I suppose, are people who would, might be wary or fearful, often through no fault of their own, just through conditioning, of people that don't belong to a similar tribe.

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, and people are fearful and judgy. And you talked, when you were first, because then your career sort of, it feels like it was really quick to me. you were suddenly everywhere. I'm sure it didn't feel that way to you. I've been to start up 15 years. All over this. And it's only in the last sort of

two years, I suppose, that I've been on things. But I think we're like, oh, he's everywhere. I'll stand him. Oh, it's too. Oh, him again. But, I mean, really, I'm just doing it to try and make up to my parents go, look, see? Do you think that is genuinely

what motivates a lot of comics? Ken Dodd said, he said, I still feel like I'm performing to my parents across the coffee table in the sitting room. What do you think? And I think, yes, it probably is true, really. It's not about approval per se, but I suppose it's about validation or sort of going, ultimately you do want to fit in, don't you, even if you are unusual. Yeah.

And different. You still want on some level to feel that human. validation, that connection that goes, yes, still all right, I know, still all right. Some people say, actually I'm going to quote to you, there's something that F. Scott Fitzgerald says. And he always said, the sign of good parenting is the child has no desire to be famous.

Oh, sorry, Mom and Day. And I'm, no, well, I, you know, anyone who performs or does anything with a profile, but that's why I find it interesting to examine that, that I think, what does that mean? Like, I look at you and your background seems absolutely grounded. But I suppose you did have that sense of being other, as you've said, and that's possibly what drove you.

Yes, I suppose it's that really, and I think it was beyond my mum and dad's control. Yeah, exactly. You know, and so it was sort of feeling different. I just sort of either had to find a way to not be different or to be really different and make that acceptable. And what did, because as your career started, you know, you'd start, I was really conscious of you. I'd be, you know, you'd mock the week and eight out of ten cats.

Well, that was much later on. That was never at the start of my career. Yeah, that was like... That was sort of 12, 13 years in. And once you've done all that, did you start to feel right? I've learned my trade and I'm confident enough that I've done enough gigs. Ostensibly, I can see that. Yeah.

And I've always, I took the attitude, every gig I'm offered, I will say yes to. Do you? And I still sort of do that. And so I go, because I sort of think, well, I want to try and suppress those demonic voices in my head that go, no, you can't do this. No, this isn't for you. Do you have those, Tom? Oh, yeah, and more as much now as ever. I can't ever imagine you having those.

Well. But I suppose we never can about other people. No. You seem very, um, sunshine rather than showers. Oh, good. Do you have showers, though? Oh, yeah, most of the time. I mean, I wasn't commenting on your personal hygiene.

No, sure. Do you have shower days as well as sunshine days? I mean, sure, usually on the same day, which of course generates a rainbow. Oh. But, you mean you have, you have sort of, your emotions are kind of up and down? not in a sort of, I'm not saying your mental health issue way, but I'm just saying... Oh, no, I mean, I think it's always... I think it is for a lot of people, maybe all people.

It is always a feeling of going, oh, being happy, but also trying to weather the, like I say, the negative voices in one's head or the kind of fears and anxieties that human beings naturally have, I suppose, because... Fred of mine pointed out that actually we all have these feelings because that's what we... That's how human beings have managed to evolve and sustain. It's because they've preempted threats. Yes, it's predators, isn't it? And actually, our feelings are evolved for a sort of more primal environment. Yes, not a pretto-monje.

More the savannah. That's what it is, though. Yeah. You've obviously, I love you on, you've carved out quite a niche for doing this sort of, you called it the bitchy younger sister or older sister when you did Bake Off the professionals, didn't you? Yeah, the bitchy older sister of Bake Off, yeah. Yeah. But really making those shows your own and giving them a really strong identity,

because you do The Apprentice, you're fired as all, which I've loved. Oh, thank you for saying that. It got me back into watching The Apprentice again. Oh, that's lovely of you to say. And it made me laugh. Oh, that's lovely. So, we had fun doing that. Do you enjoy hosting?

Yeah, I really do. And like I always loved, yeah, I've always wanted to do television, really. Yeah. And I think that there were times when, there were times as well, I think sometimes if you think you want to be an actor and you surround yourself with theatre people, they're very snobby about a lot of art forms. And actually, what I love about television is I think it's so creative. And I think it's so intelligent because you have to find. ways to connect with people on all different ways in different environments. I think it's, and I love, I've always really loved it.

You're very good at it. Oh well, thank you. Do you, um, there's no Mr. Tom then? No other half? No. No, I don't think I'm the type people fancy. They, um, no, that's very needy. Don't please don't respond to that.

It doesn't deserve it. That's absolutely unbearable that I just said. Unbearably, unbearably, unbearably. What do you like in relationships? Well, I've never really been in one. Really? So, and again, I sort of used to think that was odd. Like, I sometimes go on holiday on my own, I used to think that was one.

Then you meet, as you go, oh, there's lots of people like that. Like your life's in abeyance, waiting for this person. That messaging is so strong as well. It's really hard to go actually, actually know. I don't think people believe you, though. I think they're trying to make the best of it. But I think it's that idea that, well, this is what I do

and this is what we all do so how can you do something how can you be happy with something different and I think sometimes people see it as less than rather than just other and different well I think I'd be quite scared as well at this point of like

somebody else coming in take it over my stuff to lose my time all that downtime I might quite enjoy just looking out the window suddenly I've got to talk to them do you date you must get a lot of No, no dates. No, I don't get any office.

You do? Not really. I guess I've always struggled to meet people. Do you have friends setting you up? Not really, because I think they know better than to do that. They, because they know that they'll be disappointed. That's the thing when friends set you up, they go, and how did you get on? How'd you get on? You go, well, I hated them, of course. and then like, oh, but I thought,

I don't need the pressure of, like, it's enough pressure, but it's you and another person to see, will you get on? It's such a sort of contrived situation anyway. And then, and then it's even more contract to have, like, a friend waiting for feedback.

I do. I'm very defensive, I think, aren't I? I think I'm probably codependent. That's what a therapist once told me. I still don't know what it means, and I've read all sorts of books about it. I do, but I don't, What do you mean codependent on your...

As in... Because if you read books about codependency, actually, it's all about sort of like, oh, you had a partner who was an alcoholic and that confused your sense of what validates you. And I'm like, oh, I don't think I'm that. I've never had that. But I think, Coderma, in the sense that I base my esteem

on other people's response. Is that codependency? I don't know. So I think if I'm in a relationship... A codependency is essentially, excessive emotional reliance on someone else. And that could be a friend, that could be a loved one. What it means in relationships, I think,

is that you struggle to keep your own identity. Right. Well, I think I have elements of that. Yeah. And I think whenever I've dated someone and it's gone wrong, I've taken it very personally, and I think that's probably a sign of being quite codependent, maybe, in that, like, I can't go.

I think cool people who are always in relationships like, I'm fine. If I'm dating this person, that's fine. If I'm not dating them, I'm still fine. It's just me. Whereas I'm like, what? If I'm dating somebody and then they just like reject me, then it's like, it's not just like, oh, I don't know if we're compatible. It's like, oh, like to my existential soul, you and the world rejects me. And I therefore reject myself.

And I think that's. not good. And that's, and that, then that makes it difficult, I think, to them be... This one, Tom, is it?

Yeah. Yeah. It's always when that people will turn around and say, wow, yeah, we're on a break and then they slept with someone else.

Yes, and I'd be like, I would die. So would I? I would be like, um, like I'd be like two years, therapy, right there. But yeah,

all of, yeah, those people who are like really calm about it. Or like, you know what? We broke up. And they're seeing somebody else now, and I'm just so happy for them. And I'm going to their wedding, like, they broke up with me. I can never see them again.

And even the mention of their name will crush me to my soul. Juster's nodding. I'm nodding. Okay, so I'm not such a weirdo. Excuse me? It's the only sane response. Right? Oh, I'm sorry, I just got to do it my shoelace.

Oh, yeah. I love your man back. A kind of clutch. What I'm thinking, Tom, is that you dress beautiful. You're so well-mannered. Raymond loves you. You've got the same attitude as me for relationships. Do you see where I'm going with this? You want to get married. Okay, let's do it. We're coming on to a church. I mean, and also what would be great is we wouldn't have that issue over the, oh, I bet someone else, because they'd be no sexual jealousy. Yeah. Hi. How are you?

Yeah, great, great, thanks. into the, yeah? Wedding, yeah? Yeah, yeah. You're all. Yeah, just, um, just on my way to it now. Good. Um.

Don't have no idea to that one. She said, you're coming to the wedding. I don't know that one. And you said I'm on my way to it now. Absolutely no idea. I have no idea of it was. What would you do? What can you do?

She said, are you coming to me? I did recognize her. And then she courses at the wedding. But what about, yeah, but why did you say, I'm just on my way to it now? What else could I've said? You could have said, yes. I could have said. She looked at you like, there's the wedding isn't now.

It could be in three weeks the wedding. Oh, yeah, that was fraud. And that's why I said it with a smile. So people were like, I thought was that. I'll get, hopefully I'll get a tweet later. I mean, I don't remember people's faces. That's another thing. Do you?

I think there's people in the world. I'm just like, wipe, at the end of the day, I'm like, wipe them from my mind, wipe them from my mind. Tom, I've net, well, that's because that's our relationship. We'll cross the road now. Oh, Tom, I've really loved our walk. Oh, I hope I've bored you to death. Oh, bored me. I mean, you're absolutely fabulous.

Well, that's a point in a phrase. Can I just say, I'd like to come and see you live though. People sometimes tweet me that. And the problem is that live is also pronounced live. And so people that often say, I'd love to see you live, which does sound threatening. Your tour then, is that, are you? I'm hoping to go on tour next year, so 2021. Oh, okay.

So, yes, because I was, in a way, I would like to have done it this year. I didn't have to... You've got TV stuff going on as well, haven't you? And I would hate to rush writing the show. And I think it's important to do some living. And I think, frankly, if people have seen me before and they come back to see me, and I'm still saying, sorry, I live out with my mum and dad.

No, you all have moved by then. This is nice scrub on the green. Yeah, it's nice. Maybe that's where the wedding is. Maybe that is where the wedding is. That would be nice. So do you think, having spent time with Ray, I mean, it's not really your standard.

and a big Labrador. What dog, if you were going to get a dog, Tom, what would you go for, do you think? I've always thought a border terrier, you know, the wiry ones. Are those what? You have a growing up there? No, Yorkies. Oh, Yorkies, yeah. But I love them all, really. Do you know, I did some filming about a year ago at Edinburgh Dog and Cat Home.

And never go to a dog and cat home because it's not heartbreaking because it's not an unhappy, you know, like everybody works there who loves the dogs. But they show you the dogs. And they get you to meet them. And we did this one with this one called Diesel. It was an English bull terrier like bozzai. Which is always a breed I've thought, oh, it's not a very attractive breed.

But, you know, he was so lovely. He had a troubled time. So he was in the orphanage. And he was so boundy. But I loved him, and we really got on. And they were like, could you find a home for diesel? What do you think? He seems to like you.

And I was like, maybe I could. And it would have been the... most impractical dog. I like diesel. He sounds like a bit of sort of leather queen as well. It would have been a great dog for me, wouldn't it? He was so boundy. You know those sort of terrier dogs who are like very strong? So like didn't realize his strength, they're bound all over you. It's like being punched all the time and was very like, wanted to sort of bite you in a playful way.

I know that. It's like little legs, like little like white choice and legs. Yeah. Stocky legs. Stocky legs. And also couldn't be, wasn't good with other dogs, wasn't good with the ranchals. wasn't, like, couldn't be left on his own. Like, but still I was like, maybe there's a way I can, I can make this work? Like, can you imagine, like, even, even, even trying to be able to. Well, I hope you get a dog. I hope so, too.

We can see each other again. I really like you. Oh. I don't often do this. I did it once before to Greg Davis, and I'm afraid it didn't really go anywhere. What happened? I'd really like to be your friend. Even, please, any time.

That's what Greg Davis said. Do you know how many times he's called? Well, I don't know. Zero. Oh, well. Can you improve on that? Probably. When I moved to the barbican, you can come around all the time. Well, we're friends now, whether you like it or not.

Give me a hug. Ray, lovely to see you. Oh, so lovely. Lovely to see you. Tom, I really enjoyed our walk. Well, I hope it's useful for your needs. And thank you for getting me here in such good time. We've had a lovely walk.

We haven't been rained on. Go into your office. That's not where I'm going. That clearly is condemned building. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to read. review and subscribe on iTunes.