Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Tom Allen Returns!

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

This week Emily and Ray went to South East London to catch up with Tom Allen. They chat about Tom’s lovely Dad who he sadly lost last year and his new book, Too Much. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We're going to get the bacon now and then go home because it's raining. Where is the bacon shop? Oh it's just up here. Okay. Here it is. Well, this is a florist. You've never bought bacon before, have you? This week on walking the dog, Raymond and I went to South East London

to take a stroll with the wonderful Tom Allen. Tom is yet to get a dog, I'm still piling the pressure on, but he has bought a beautiful new home. I had a nose around and I'm afraid I felt ill with jealous. and he's got himself a lovely partner called Alfie, and they're basically total couple goals. Tom is a diamond. He's obviously hilarious,

but he's also just an incredibly sweet natured and very gentle soul. It was a joy to catch up with him. And it was also really touching, hearing him talk about his wonderful dad, who he's sadly lost last year, and he's actually just written a beautiful memoir called Too Much, where he writes very movingly and humorously about their really close relationship.

It's an absolutely beautiful book, so I can't recommend it enough. Tom is also on tour all next year with his show completely, so do go and get your tickets at tomindeed.com. I'm going to shut up now and hand over to the fabulous man himself. Here's Tom and Raymond. Will we have a sing-along before we go? That didn't feel very good, but the... A lovely beginning to the walk.

What a lovely start, eh? Alf is joining us. Alfie, are you going to come with us? It's got his coat on. Come on, everyone. I've got my three boys. I got Tom, I got Alfie, and I've got Raven. Right, let's just be careful on those steps

because they are a bit slippery. Tom, you've still got pumpkins. Well, they're an autumnal display, and I thought, well, it's still autumn, isn't it? So I've kept them out, and we made them look lovely actually with the dried hydrange, didn't we? And then I thought, you know,

we'll get rid of them, when we put the Christmas things up, won't we? So that's all. Oh, it is cold, isn't it? Oh, and I tell you, something's had a go with that, Al. Oh, I do like them, though. Yeah, well. And they're very in keeping with the Georgian aesthetic of your house.

Well, that's what I thought, a Georgian pumpkin with an autumnal bush. I mean, they look Georgian. They've been there a while. Right, where do we want to go? Now, does Ray like the, a bushy undergrowth, Or does he find that too abrasive on his undercarriage? I can't speak. Do you know, Ray's quite used to a bushy undergrowth.

Okay. And the great thing is, if he gets too brambly, which can happen, your partner Alfie can carry him. Yeah. Now, what's this? There's a bag up here. See, because I get very upset when there's litter. And it's not, I don't think it is actually the school kids.

who walk up and down. I think it's much more the people, people when they put their recycling out, it blows. Oh yes. Oh Tom there's already another dog. What's that one? Somebody for Ray. Are you going to put Ray down at all? Well I was going to put his lead on but I thought I'd wait. Should I do it now? Oh I see. Come on Ray. Let's put your lead on. Good boy. Yes. There you go. Oh he's running away. He doesn't want to put his harness on.

We've all been there dear. Right, let's follow Tom. Oh, it's nice and cool, isn't it? Oh, it's lovely. It's quite nice with the hangover, isn't it? That's Tom and Alford, by the way, not me. No, no. I've got to, I'm on Radio 3 after this.

Oh, lovely. What is you doing there? Which so it suits my gruff tones. I'm on, I'm guest hosting late junk. So I'd say we should go up here. Should we go up here? Let's come on the path. Come on Ray. There's a, what's that, Tom?

Is that a... I think that would be a poodle. Oh, yes. Hi. Hello. Oh, the poodle likes you, Tom. He's coming over. Is he a poodle?

Oh, he's a cockapoo. Yes. Oh, I don't mind. I don't mind. Oh. Hello, coca po. Is he pop? Yeah, no, he's four months.

Oh, he's training him. Oh. Oh, Ray. What's the name? Ray doesn't want to play. Murphy? Oh, that's a good name. Oh, hello, Murphy.

Oh, you're so shy, Emily. I've never seen a dog look so reserved as yours is. He's not sure. I'll play. I'll play with you. I'll play with you. You don't want to play with Murphy? No, fa, fa, fa, fa, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What are you doing? What are you doing? Oh, good boy. He's a shih Tzu. He's an imperial shih Tzu, which is why he's quite... Imperial Shih Tzu, I think, is more accurate. Yeah. Well, he is, look.

And we're going for what we're doing, a podcast about walking dogs. So, yeah, perfect, perfect. So now Murphy will be starring on it. You never know. Well, good luck, Murphy. Nice to see you. See you later. Take care.

Have a lovely day. Bye-bye. Come on, Tom. Nice. I mean, I'm not even going to bother formally introducing you, because everyone knows this man, everyone loves this man. Oh, that's very kind. I'm obviously with the utterly fabulous Tom Allen. Oh.

We've come to, this is a second appearance. Yes, you had me back. Oh, you're very kind to do that. Well, I had you back for a number of reasons. You haven't got a dog yet, but I still love you. No, still want one, though. I had you back because... I really want to talk about your absolutely brilliant book,

too much, which I've read and adore. So we're going to be chatting about that. I'm still trying to persuade you to get a dog. You're trying to convince me to get one? Well, we just ran into a lovely cockaboo. What do you think? Love him. Love that.

Love that dog. Like all dogs, though, really, don't really find many dogs I don't like. Quite like the idea of getting a staffie at the moment, maybe calling it Hyacinth. Named after your childhood... Hero, Hyacinth Bouquet. So Tom, we're in beautiful Bromley. Suburban, leafy suburbs.

That's me. This is where you grew up, isn't it? Well, we're about to walk past my old school, actually. And so, yes, we are taking... taking a trip down memory lane and in that sort of Gatsby-esque, you know, the end of Gatsby when we're all, you know, born ceaselessly back, of course, I all, I think the last time I was on this podcast was thinking, oh, I want to live in town with all the gays, and grow a moustache and roll up my trouser legs and carry a tote bag. But it dawned on me actually. I'm not really that

sort of person. And I like being in suburbia. I like being near my mum. And also I quite like being surrounded by where I'm from. So it's quite nice that, you know, like where I live is somewhere I used to walk past when I was at school. That is really nice. All your histories around here. Yes, all the history. So we're going to go down here a bit. So, yeah, so you were saying you grew up sort of in this area and we're getting to this close to a school.

This might be your school. We didn't think we'd be hearing the screaming children, but look like we are going to me now. In my last book I wrote quite a lot about being at school. And it's quite strange, really, to, you know, have that nostalgia for it, but also when you see the actual building where it was, you're going to go, oh, yeah, I remember that building for French or whatever. He doesn't like it, Tom. Oh, Ray doesn't like that at all.

Obviously, he doesn't like the Mar. No, no. Oh, no, he's doing a poo-poo. Is he? Do you see he's doing the Peter Crouch? He's very, um, reserved about it, isn't he? Well, I mean, he's very reserved about a lot of things.

He's a very reserved dog. Look at that. I mean. O'Re. Okay, we're now in that difficult position, the etiquette issue of, I've got a hand with a poo in it. Sorry. There's a bin over there. Okay.

Unless you want to carry it. Come on, I'll put this poo in the bin, right? We're having a lovely start to the week here, aren't we? Oh, thank you for the umbrella Alfie. Do you know, you guys all have with that? Oh, isn't that lovely? I didn't think it was going to rain today. So go on, we have to talk about your school?

Oh, yes. You have sort of felt slightly different. It's fair to say at school, didn't you? Yes, I always felt like a bit of an outsider, really. and I always, well, I never had many friends at primary school because I told the other children that I was an emperor. And I think that's quite a lot, isn't it, for a dinner lady to process. And so I was always quite eccentric and knew I was eccentric, but I didn't, you know, it wasn't, I didn't know how to explain it really. And it always felt different.

and that's been very much the ongoing saga is how to accept being different for oneself and embracing it. But yes, I mean, school is trying for a lot of people and it wasn't all terrible or anything, but it was, yeah, challenging, I think, because I didn't know quite what I was supposed to be doing and whilst, like, lots of people I knew in my year

were sort of going out, getting fingered, I was, you know, dressing up as a Victorian and going round vintage clothes shops looking for top hats, which is unusual, isn't it, really? And you very much, as we said, you sort of viewed... Well, Hyacin's Bouquet was someone you felt quite passionate about in terms of that's who you saw yourself as. And as a small child, I was obsessed with keeping up appearances

and very much related to Hyacinth Buckeh, and as time went on, I realised I was actually sort of saw myself as Hyacinth Bucay and indeed saw myself as the actress playing her Patricia Routledge, again, which is quite a lot for this, you know, Zone 5 to take on board. So I, so yeah, so I am, people playing love music, I don't like that. So I kind of thought that was difficult. It's difficult, isn't it, to be sent out into the playground to play, when you're like, well, hang on a second, I'm Patricia Routledge.

You know, I think it's quite straightforward when I put it like that. And your book, Too Much, which I absolutely loved, is so touching and obviously very funny, but it reflects on your childhood, but it was also written during this quite challenging time when you lost your dad. Yes. And it's a real, it's such a wonderful book

on the sort of complexities of navigating and experience like that and brief, but it's also a really lovely celebration of him, I think, and his life and your relationship. Well, I wanted to write about the complexities of those feelings because I think a lot of the time it's not, you know, for me anyway, it was, well, I'm still sort of experiencing it, and I suppose I'll experience it for the rest of my life, really, missing him. But also, you know, that first six months when I was writing it, I just tried to be honest

because I think it is such a, like this roller coaster. But I just thought, you know, writing about the fact that it's not just sort of sadness, isn't sort of a one-dimensional thing or grief isn't a one-dimensional thing. Sometimes you'll feel actually laughing. You like laughing a lot, and sometimes you'll feel quite a lot of anxiety. Or at one point, I just got very angry at the interior decor

of Jersey Airport. So I sort of hate to think as well in that that it's a life-affirming book. And there was still lots of things that we laughed about. So I wrote about those really, too, and I wrote about the... you know, going to the undertakers and my mum said it's like a show home, I could move in.

Where would you sleep? But she liked the design of it. It was very nice, lots of grey. And going to other funerals subsequently and comparing them to dads and suddenly being very competitive about them. And at one point we went into the crematorium. To a crematorium

and there was a sign on the wall saying, what to do in the event of a fire? I thought, well, isn't that why we're all here? And as I say, you and your dad were so different, but so close. And there was obviously a deep love you had for each other. And it kind of, there are so many brilliant stories you tell. Would you often find yourself in situations where you'd think we have a completely different worldview, essentially? Oh, frequently, yeah.

Excuse me. But, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's another thing I wanted to write about was the nature of love is that it's not like in films where it's like, I love you. If I said to my dad, I love your dad, put my arms around him. He probably would have gone, oh, get off me for God's sake. And it probably would have shocked him so much.

It would have brought on the, hastened the heart attack. Oh, Ray's having a terrible time, isn't he? Oh, he's all right. Go and see Tom. Come on, Ray. Oh, that beautiful coat of his is diminishing. Will his hair go curly? Yes.

But I put a lovely serum on it. Oh, quite right. So go on, so you were talking about your dad and you, yeah, he... Oh yeah, the complexity. Well, you know, we were very different. He was a South London coach driver and I had this posh voice for some reason. People often are like, why? Why do you have that voice?

Why did you talk like that? Why? And I don't know why. Like everything, people would love to know why on everything, don't they? And I just did talk like it. So that was complex, but he would be, you know, he was, he was different. He was a very practical person, born in 1941, in South East London in Penge, Annalise, he would say. And it was, you know, and I was kind of somebody who was like, you know, always about feelings and creativity and putting ribbons around my bedroom wall.

And I'll get, you don't have any more crap up on the wall, I. and he would be quite perturbed or confused by me at times but that's not to say we didn't still care about each other and he would show his affection largely by making bacon sandwiches amongst other things I fancy bacon sandwich actually Al should we go past the butcher's? Should we get a bacon sandwich for you? Oh let's show oh yeah we got those part baked haven't we?

Let's have a bacon sandwich oh yeah because that's what dad would do. in any situation was always resolved by having a bacon sandwich. Sometimes he'd put an egg in it. And vegans would come around to see me, and they'd be often a bacon sandwich as well. And it didn't matter. But that was, I think that's the nature of some people.

They are, life is complex. Love is a complex thing, isn't it? It's not always, sorry, saying like a song. But it's, you know, it's not like it's often represented in songs and films. It is sometimes quite convoluted. And I wanted to write about those complexities that, that I felt. And I think what I realised in writing the book, you find yourself on the page a lot of the time.

The writing exercise teaches you about yourself. I realised how similar dad and I were. We're both quite obstinate, both quite stuck in our ways in a sense. Yeah. And I think you don't realise that when you're going, when you're in the moment, you realise that afterwards. When you were younger, did you sometimes feel, did you feel self-conscious a lot of the time, Tom? because I didn't have like the kind of straightforward references like sports and things. I wasn't good at football or anything like that. My dad would desperately try and include me in things, but I just wasn't good at it. Or just had no connection to it, just couldn't do it, really.

I remember him taking me to squash lessons, and I would be in the corner of the squash court crying when all the children were having a lovely time, just playing. For them it was just a game, but for me it just felt like this another, reminder. It was like eight years old. I was like, oh, it's so unbearable. So, so, but yeah, just realising how those moments bear, have a bearing. We're going to get the bacon now and then go home because it's raining. Where is the bacon shop? Oh, it's just up here. Okay. Here it is.

Oh, this is a florist. You've never bought bacon before, have you? Oh, Tom, that'd be nice for me. Pause naturally. Yeah, that sort of shop you could run. I wasn't going that far. I could run it. I thought that's what you meant. It's quite a nice shop.

I never go in it, but that's nice. Oh, do you know what? Are they open on a Monday? The Butchers. Just thought that. Oh, we can go to the two point then. We'll have to go to the other one. Do you want to run up and see?

I'm going to speak about... Tom's partner, Alpi, while he's out of ear shorts, because he'll get embarrassed. But he's just run up to see if the butchers are open, because he wanted to get baking. What a lovely man. He's a good guy. He's the best, yeah. Great guy. Have a lovely time.

And, yeah, it's my first time of having a relationship. I saw this. Excuse me. I've never been, so I lived at home until the tender age of 38, and then moved out and moved out and moved. into where I'm now where we've just seen, around here, and moved there and then went to, is he waving at us, what's he doing? And then got together with Alfie,

and then, you know, kind of just started to feel a bit more settled, and that's when I lost Dad. So it all sort of felt quite strange, and sometimes you go like, where, what is my life? This isn't the life I remember. That's what I thought, I always come back. I think it's in a... But there's the shop on the corner. They said, yeah, it's a no.

Oh, bless it, he ran up there. So should we go to the other butchers, Tom? Well, it's more of a shop on the corner. It's not, it won't be, it won't be as fancy. But, thanks Alf, but no, he's brilliant. And we have a lovely time together. And he's so kind and fun. Yeah, we have a lovely time.

As I say, we were getting pissed last night in the kitchen and then we had a bit of a dance. Was it to see you two? Yeah. That's what three, four cocktails will do. Sorry. Thanks for going up there, though. I suddenly thought that.

Oh, look, little Ray, feeling is she going. We need to get you indoors with a towel so we can dry you off. It's too good for the boy. Let's get some bacon in us. Obviously, as you say, it feels like your life, just at the point you lost your dad. Everything had sort of come together for you, you know? Well, yes, really, yeah.

So, I mean, you could say... And we should say it was... It was... Twenty-one this happened, wasn't it? Yes, so at this point, it's coming up to the year anniversary. Oh, yeah, it was all sort of very... We were on... Alf and I were on our first holiday together,

and then we're there for a day and then got the call, had to come straight home. So Alfa's had to put up with a lot of emotions. Do you know, I think that's a really good... time to meet someone though because... Oh yes. In some way. Oh we're going to go into the shop now. Sorry. So... Thanks, Alfie. I'll be two seconds. Okay. Tom's going in to get bacon. Alphe. You're all right. What a day for it.

Last week was terrible as well, isn't it? Oh, it's away last week, yeah. For autumn now, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, good thanks, good, yeah? Yeah, been busy and I just brought a book out so that's been, um, yeah, so that's been, um, yeah, so that, I'm doing a podcast, we've just had a break. No, no, we just have on a break, just get some bacon. Hi, yeah, just those, please. Just good those, good, should you be?

Thank you. Did you enjoy blankety flame? Oh, did you see? Fun, fun, oh, he's great. It's lovely, and Bradley Walsh is so nice. Yeah, that's nice. But it's a bit of fun. Nice to be busy.

All right, well, I'll see you later, yeah, don't get rain, dog, see you later. He only had unsmoked. Do you think that's all right? What's going on? I think you'd come out in the big brother house. You had friends and you were chatting to me. We were having a lovely time in there.

You should have come. You should have come in. Oh, you've got the keys. Did you make some friends in there at home? Well, I know. I'm always chatting me. It's nice, isn't it? Nice to know people.

I've always liked the idea of being like, you know like Belle in Beauty and the Beast, the way she walks down the street and everybody's like, good morning, Bell. And that's nice, isn't it? Do you think you, I think that might have been instilled in you by your folks, do you think? Because they were quite into sort of manners and respect. Well, respect, really.

I mean, I took it to a new level with etiquette manuals. Again, there's only so much useful Lady Trowbridge and Emily Post in 1990s, Bromley. But yeah, no, Dad was always very respectful to people, always saying hello. And always had a very good way of talking to people, which was direct, but not, not. abrasive and always kind of, he was always a good communicator, I think, always kind of not very front-footed in the way he would speak with people. He was someone who would often talk to you about people-pleasing and not, he had these great sort of sayings. Things like if I was going over the top with things, he'd say, look, there's a difference between scratching your ass and

tearing the skin, which I said in Newbury the other day. People were appalled, but that's the thing with Newbury, isn't it? But you tell, most people will go, oh, that's endearing. That's true. But the, but so, yeah, he would have his sayings, as they were. Because the editor suggested, like, oh, sorry, drips coming off the umbrella. The editor said, why don't you frame each chapter around something your dad said to you? And I was like, yes, that's a great idea.

But then it dawned me, you know, my dad wasn't, like, Giles Brandreth or something. He wasn't, like, kind of, I didn't have, like, myriad kind of profound sayings or references, but he did have quite direct practical advice like that. I get the sense your dad lived by a very... Kind of it was quite an honourable code in a way. Oh yeah. Oh, very, yeah. But never...

I would always do right by people. And also always had a very good attitude. Like it was where we were walking actually just now. He, when I was going to school, and I said, I don't like maths. I'm not very good at maths. And he said to me, look, you're going to have to do it. So you can do it, kicking and screaming and sort of rejecting it and trying not to do it. Or you can do it with a good heart.

and if you do it with a good heart, you might actually get something out of it. And so that's sort of what I try, and I try and remember that. You know, we all have it with, oh, I don't want to do this, I'm fed up with this, oh, I can do without this. And you do it, and then you go, actually, if you do it with a good heart, oh, well, I don't make the best of it, you might get something from it. Come in. We've just got to Tom's beautiful house, and it honestly is.

Oh, thank you. I just dry the umbrella a little. Come on in, come on in. Do shoes off. Do his shoes off. And we'll have to change the title of this one to drying the dog. We need to get Ray a towel. He looks like he's just gone to the salon.

Right, so we've got back to Tom's staff. Yeah, we're back here at mine. And we're in the kitchen. We're in the kitchen considering making a bacon sandwich. Making a bacon sandwich. I'm going to get a towel for Ray. Raymond. No, Raymond.

Tom, I should say, has just produced a towel for Raymond, which is lovely enough as it is. But it's a towel with Martin Kemp and Roman Kemp on it. On it, yeah. And Martin Kemp has just been on this podcast. No way! Yes. Why should we sit? Let's go here. Oh, we can go upstairs.

Is upstairs better? It's upstairs better in a small room. So we're going upstairs just because it's better sound. while Alfie is making us bacon sandwiches. It's not a bad life, is it? It's the dream. You've got to live. What about this room?

Is this a good room? I never come in here. Oh my God, I've got to stretch my back out. I get back pain now, Emily. Do you? Yeah, I think I must be odd. I've got a foam roller. I don't know if my bed's too soft.

I've got a very nice mattress topper, but I don't know if it's too indulgent. What I like is you've made yourself very comfortable here. So tell me, you write in the book really movingly, as I say, about losing your dad and it was this really, it was really tough for you, wasn't it? What's interesting when you go through an experience like that is that I think your whole attitude towards, I suppose, you sometimes reflect on your past differently and do you think you've almost, as you say, you saw more similarities with you and your dad, but you start to feel this kind of. growing fondness and affection for your childhood and those memories. Don't you? Did you experience that?

And I think I started to feel a reframing of how I thought of my younger self. I think in a way that I didn't, you know, at the time was kind of like quite harsh on myself for, you know, going to America thinking, oh, I'll be able to make a go of being in America, just sort of turning up basically. And similarly, even younger than that, as a kid and as a teenager, I used to be like, God, I'm so embarrassed. I'm so embarrassing. But then, of course, you go, no, I was just fine. It's fine.

So I think that losing a parent does sort of teach you to sort of, or losing anybody really sort of makes you kind of reframe the way you look at the world and also feel a lot more kind of, and more compassionate to other people actually as well. Like, is you suddenly realize, oh, maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they're just coping with their loss in a way that before I was like, why, they're in a bad mood, what's up with them? Which is nice, isn't it? So there's that sort of side of it.

And I think that's the part of it that's being an adult really that teaches you to be an adult. Because people say that, don't they? That you don't really ever grow up until you lose at least one parent. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's kind of because you think you've always got them to rely on and they'll always, they understand you better than anybody. And you know, like my dad would do things like taking the bins out for me when I moved into this house or, you know, kind of doing like mowing the lawn for me and um I'm like oh dad you don't have to do that don't have to do that I'm a grown up stop being stop like trying to help so mad and of

course that was again like the bacon sandwiches it was just his way of showing he cared but I'm sort of sort of like oh you're molly coddling me you're kind of you're you're making me feel like I'm not a grown up but I wasn't really and now I do have to take the recycling out and it's really tiring he was very into those sort of acts of service We were talking about acts of service and I think that's very interesting as that's a more common way for men to show love, I think that's true, isn't it? Well, based on what you said as well, yeah. I think that it's more comfortable than talking about feelings or you know sometimes. Yeah, that's why you'll often hear people saying, oh my dad, he never says he loves me or we don't, but he'll always fill my car with petrol.

Oh, right, yeah, yeah. You think, oh, that is I love you. Exactly, exactly And I think that's, it's important not to ignore that And to, to acknowledge it Because I think, like I said, we're not all Like characters in a book, we're, you know, much more complicated than that, actually I get the sense you were always a character

Well, I was always, yeah, people always laughed And sometimes I couldn't understand it, why they laughed And then I sort of thought, and then I thought I wanted to be an actor because I liked performing and I liked being the central attention. And then I thought I wanted to be an actor, and then it turned out I was just gay. And so I just liked sort of being the central of attention. And I didn't really enjoy acting for when you have to sort of stand there

and wait for somebody else to say there a bit. So, and I didn't, and the thing with acting as well is, in my mind, I thought it would be like doing things like the National Youth Theatre, which were great for me, and I'm very grateful to them. But at the same time, I realised like a lot of bloke's acting's quite bloc-y in a really competitive way. For men who like often aren't able to achieve their sporting dreams, they'll be like a teacher who'll take it upon themselves to be like, actually, have you considered doing the school player? And then guess what, they're really good at it because they apply that same competitiveness to it.

And then you get lots of men like, yeah, it's a brilliant performance. They love characters who are like really violent, jowdy. And I never really like them. I just sort of like, well, Kel Supri's, like Camp Older Men. That's the characters I like to play. So, and then I've realised that actually stand up before. It's a space to do your own thing and to have your own voice a bit. Alfie's singing.

What's he singing? Alfie's... It'll be something from a musical. You mentioned that you felt, there was almost, you felt by coming out, there was a slight betrayal of where you came from. Well, I think because I grew up at a time when, you know, gay people weren't really talked about. Like you didn't really, it wasn't celebrated in the way it is more so now. It was just very, we didn't know any gay people. There weren't gay people on the television and any stories you'd hear would be, or you'd hear, or maybe you'd hear, or maybe you'd,

see on a film or something would often would usually be something sad you know they'd be like beaten up or they'd die or you know they'd be thrown out by their family they weren't stories of like oh and then they just fell in love and actually had quite a nice time you know so I think that contributed to it and I think like I think maybe it's different now but I seem to remember feeling very solitary going out on the gay scene because I felt like no one else I didn't you know I did have straight friends who would have come with me but you know there's only so many times you can ask them to sit in the corner of a gay bar with you while you fail not to talk to anybody.

And also gay bars at this time had become very loud, so you couldn't talk to anyone. They were just sort of like clubs really. So you never meet someone in a club. But yet all the films would be like, oh, and I met someone in a club. So you were like, well, I literally just didn't know how to meet people. And yeah, I had no idea. So yeah, it's going out. I'd have to go off and go out on my own in a way that was different to, say, my straight friends, where they could sort of go out to the pub and meet people or sort of feel quite represented there. So I'd often go out on my own. And a lot of queer places are often quite, they can feel a bit frightening at first.

They're not really, but they can feel a bit frightening. Pubs and bars where everybody's kind of quite avuncular. It's quite an intimidating thing if you're not feeling avuncular yourself. You were living at home at the time. So did you almost feel slightly guilty going home to your parents and thinking, oh, I've had this as a double life thing. Kind of, yeah, because there's no way I could have gone home and told them about it. And, of course, living at home means you can't really, you can't, well, I never could bring anybody.

Not that my parents ever prevented me from bringing anybody back, but I just would never even have the discussion. I would be too abashed. So I'd have to sort of, you know, text my mum, because my mum would always want to know, well, where are you? Are you okay? Which I suppose you can understand it now. You've got a child who's clearly very much making themselves a target for abuse. in that I was kind of sticking out sometimes as a character and then sort of wandering around this huge world city of London

and so my mum would be like, are you all right, where are you? What time are you coming home? Just to sort of quell the anxiety that you must feel if your offspring is just wandering around. And then, of course, I was doing these things which they would have considered probably very dangerous and not what they would advise at all,

kind of going, you know, even to a gay bar on my own, they'd be like, why would you go there on your? own, can't you go with somebody? But I would sort of be like, no, no, in my mind, no, I can do this. Trying to prove myself, I suppose. Did people often ask you, Tom, why are you still living at home? Because you only moved out when you were, what age? 38. Well, I did spend a few years living away in Camden and then Brixton. And then I came back when I was about 30. And what I realized was, I always felt like I was trying to prove that I was like this grown up living, this London life, this big sense.

city life and I was sort of doing it just to try and impress other people and actually I felt much more content when I was at home and actually as a stand-up I started talking about suburbia which I think when I've been a teenager particularly when I'd been like involved with the national youth theatre and met all these kind of slightly seemingly like fabulous people and the idea of suburbia particularly in like the early noughties you know the sort of glory days of the Blair Brown glory days as I always call them you know everybody was sort of quite snooty and quite sort of Not stupid, but like, could be a little bit, like, why would you be in suburbia? Why would you? That's not very Johnny Depp and Kate Moss.

No, exactly. Everyone's sort of aspiring to go to a private members club and have kind of, you know, very fabulous. This was before social media as well, but, you know, always kind of living these exalted lives and living in Islington and stuff and being very cool, which of course, like, I wasn't. And I sort of felt so ashamed and I tried to hide it. But then, actually, when I returned to it, I felt much happier, much more content. And was being true to myself, which made me a better stand-up. Because stand-up, you have to be true to yourself, and you have to talk about what you actually feel and where you're actually from.

And people relate to you then, because they go, oh, I'm that person as well. And they might laugh as well, because they've sort of been taught to bury their kind of more suburban lives. But I've realised actually more and more I liked it and liked it, and liked the kind of parochialness of it. maybe the kind of, or just the familialness of it. You're literally being near your friends and family is nice rather than I felt this obligation

to be like this cool person living in town, going out, buying coffee. And then it's like, what a load of crap in a way. Yeah. And actually what's interesting is where this beautiful home that you've created for yourself now and it feels, it feels villagey and it feels kind of intimate. And I think often we mistake the being the English. sort of showrunner of your life. So having this kind of overview of it and thinking, oh, imagine me in that flat. Yes. I mean, how funny that we regard ourselves as the showrunners of our lives. That's all funny. And actually, sometimes then you stop being the lead because

you're so busy controlling all the aspects of it. Yes. And actually, you've given over this idea of these like watchers as though anybody cares. The truth. Just actually making yourself happy and having a simple life, not in a patronising way, but just having, you know, you don't have to be, with on the go, going to these, like, having this, like, sex in the city existence, going to brunch,

talking about boyfriends, and love is so complicated, and just not, just living this weird act. And it's just like where you think you're Sarah Jessica Parker. Or even Sarah Jessica Parker actually has, I think, quite a normal life. She's not Harry Bradshaw smoking on the stoop all the time,

writing those ridiculous articles. Do you know I love that your parents, I always think there is something lovely because when a parent gets to see their child, like in your case, you've been very successful. Was it lovely to see your dad seeing your success? Are you grateful for that in a way? Yes, I am now.

I think at the time I was like, you know, he'd still be telling me to take the garden cushions in. You know, the garden furniture has cushions. be like, take that in and I'd be like, I don't want to take it in. It's weatherproof. I don't need to. None of the neighbours take theirs in. Don't be so ridiculous. Take it in. Take it. Put it in the shed. What difference is to make?

Because if it rains, it'll be ruined. And I'm like, no, I don't need to do that. But again, I think that was, he was very proud of me and he loved this house. He just really couldn't speak when I showed it to him, which was a lovely moment, really. And he loved being here. And, yeah, he was sort of, yeah, he loved it. But at times I think I sort of struggle to accept that. But maybe that's just part of it, you know, and that's the way it is now.

And actually getting to reflect on that is a good thing. Yeah. And I think it's, you obviously lost your dad very suddenly, and I know that's complicated. But your life was in a really good place and is in a good place. And your dad got to see that. Yes, absolutely, yeah. And there's lots to be grateful for in that regard. Yeah, and then as well, like my friend Darren said to me at the time,

you know, don't fret about not saying, oh, I loved you, because they know, you know, the people we care about know that we care about them. So Tom, lovely Alphia is going to bring us our bacon sandwiches. Yes, I think I can smell them. You are, I mean, you're on tour. For the rest of my life. Really? I think you will be. You work very hard, don't you?

Oh, well, that's nice to say. I like working. I like being busy. And I like, because it took me 17 years I've been stand-up. And I left school, I think, 21 years ago now. And I didn't go to university. I just sort of leapt straight in trying to make a living in showbiz. But it took me sort of until, it's only the last three, four years that I've been able to sort of really make a living doing it.

and I'm very proud of that. So I feel, with the help of management and people around me, I always love, you talk to me a lot about your age and how, she kind of helped change your life and your career in a way, didn't she? Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, Flo is amazing and believed in me in a way that other people perhaps hadn't, or, you know, taught me to believe in myself. and Flow works so hard that you feel a wonderful sense being in a team. And so my sense is always, well, Flow works hard and I want to work hard

and we get to achieve fun things together and with the team as well, that Flow works with Lily and Katie and everyone. They're great. And I think that's a lovely feeling of getting to do what you like doing. And so, yeah, I'm grateful to be touring, especially after the pandemic when no one could go anywhere. So it's lovely to be out about. Are you getting better at the people-pleasing stuff, Tom?

A little bit. Like Dad would always say things like shove it about things. And I think that's probably a good thing to... Because it gets up in our heads, isn't it? We kind of start imagining what other people are thinking and trying to please them. And he's right, like, oh, shove it. You know, like people... I'm not very good driver, but, you know, you realise everybody's so...

Everybody's so superior, aren't they? Everyone's so convinced they're so bloody perfect. And you realise, like, Dad would sometimes be in the car. I'm like, oh, fuck off. Shathing up people. And I'm like, oh, darn, son, dinkled. But now I realise that actually that's not a bad way to be sometimes, because some people are our souls.

And there's another profound message from Dad. Well, Tom, your book is absolutely, I sound like Barbara Streisand at the end of the way we work. Your girl is lovely Hubble. Your book is wonderful, Hubble. No, Tom, your book is just honestly brilliant, and I really mean that. I think you're an incredible writer, and I also want to say you are honestly one of the nicest men I've ever met. Oh, thank you.

One of, go with the others. Sorry, I'm just being silly. We've loved, well, I'm sorry we didn't get it. to do a proper walk with you because it started raining. Ray just winked at me. Ray just went to go like, don't we didn't want to walk, did we? But we didn't get to walk. Well we ended up back here.

Alfie's going to, has made us some bacon sandwiches, so let's go and eat. Let's go eat. Can you tell me your views on Ray? Because you spent a bit of time with him now. This isn't your first time at the Ray Road, do you know? I have always wanted a gay son and it's so wonderful to see what that's like with Ray. He's certainly flamboyant and he knows who he is And he's a bit like me in that he didn't like it

That dog early was trying to play with him And he was like, no, thank you, no And that would have been how I was So I do relate to him a lot He's a bit of a high scintzumé anyway He's a little bit of a high scintzuméé, you've got a high scyceum You've got a high scycephiard Tom, we love you

Will you give Tom a kiss? Ray! Oh, Reg! What's the matter? What's the matter? No. No. You dried off your head. Aww.

I really hope you enjoyed listening to that. And do remember to rate, review and subscribe on iTunes.