Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Tom Holland (Part Two)

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

In the second part of our walk with podcaster, historian and author Tom Holland - we dive into Tom’s phenomenally successful career: his surprising start in literature, what it means to be a popular historian and the unstoppable rise of the podcast he hosts with Dominic Sandbrook, The Rest Is History. If you haven’t heard the first part of this episode yet, you can listen to it hereYou can listen to The Rest Is History wherever you get your podcasts! Ray’s favourite episode of The Rest Is History: ‘History’s Greatest Dogs’ is here. For more information about The Rest Is History, including live dates and The Rest Is History Club you can visit: https://therestishistory.supportingcast.fm/Tom’s latest book Pax is available now!Follow Emily: Instagram - @emilyrebeccadeanX - @divine_miss_emWalking The Dog is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Rich Jarman Artwork: Alice LudlamPhotography: Karla Gowlett  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Part 2 of Walking the Dog with historian Tom Holland, host of the Unstoppable Restless History podcast. And if you enjoy that show, I think you're going to love this, because it's fair to say, even on a casual dog walk in the park, Tom really delivers on the history front. It was fascinating to hear how that show all came about and why he loves chatting so much about history. And yes, I did ask him how many times a day he thinks about the Roman Empire.

No spoilers, but put it this way. It's even more than Raymond thinks about cheese. I really hope you enjoy part two of my chat with Tom Holland, and if you want to hear more, Tom, you can obviously hear him on the brilliant Restus History podcast with Dominic Sandbrook, which is quite frankly a thing of total joy. I'll hand over to the man himself now. Here's part two with Tom and Raymond.

So tell me, Cambridge, you graduate, and then you go and do... Well, then, you see, I wanted to be a great novelist. And this is why I did English rather than history. I wanted to be a great writer. This was my dream. So it was kind of all about preparing myself for that. And I did a doctorate to try and basically stop myself from being on the dole. But I just wasn't a great novelist.

And it was kind of quite a painful realisation that I'd been absolutely deluding myself with this mad fantasy. Why do you think you weren't a great novelist? Because I'm not I'm actually As I said before I'm actually interested in things that happened in the past More interested in things that happened in the past and in the present

I'm not actually that interested in I'm not as interested in The kind of the stuff of novels As I am of the stuff of history books But it took me time to realise that So I was doing a doctorate on Byron and ancient Greece and I just I got fed up with it

I wasn't interested in academia I really didn't want to be doing it I thought Byron was actually a very bad subject for academia because he was too he was very much not the kind of person who should be in an academic book so I wrote a novel in which he was a vampire because he was the model

before Byron vampires were kind of peasants and after Byron they were aristocrats. So I wrote a book in which he literally becomes a vampire. And it did well enough that it got a deal in America as well as here. And I got locked into a three-book deal where I had to write three more vampire books. So I did that. And they were all set in periods of history.

And I realized when I was writing them that actually it was the history that I was interested in. the history was always more interesting than the kind of the vampire stuff that I was having to shovel in and I think it can just sometimes if you're a writer it can take you time to realize what it is that is your inspiration what your muse is and my muse was was really the past as I as I should have realised because from childhood that was always what had moved and excited me but it's I I just hadn't thought that through. There is an argument for when you, there's a subject that you're so passionate about and you have such an emotional connection to, you see that often happen with people,

but in a way they're sort of frightened of failing at it. It really wasn't that. It was just that I loved literature so much and I discovered it late. So it was kind of, I'd been habituated to history and then suddenly to be read. I don't know, Byron or Shakespeare or whatever. I kind of got drunk with love for it and I wanted to be a part of it. But, you know, it wasn't the ultimate wellspring

of what moved me. But it just took me time to realise that. Thank God you did, though. And I remember when... Got this way. When I then moved on to write my first history book, which was about the age of Julius Caesar. That was the book that had first got me into it.

So it was, you know, we talked about Proust having the Proustian rush. There was a kind of Proustian rush in writing history. You know, I'd always associated that idea of going into childhood and writing, you know, the wellsprings of childhood inspiration as not being something that would send me back to history. But of course it was, because that was always what fascinated me. most. But it just took me time to realise that and work that out.

And was it a conscious decision? Did you just say one day you were writing a fiction book actually weren't you? It was realising that it was actually the history that was interesting me. And the last one I did was it was set in ancient Egypt. It was

a kind of Russian doll's structure. So the outer one was Howard Carter discovering Tutankham's tomb. Then there was an inner one and it was kind of Arabian nights type story set in 10th century Cairo. And then the innermost one was the story of Akanaten, the heretic pharaoh, and Teuton Karmine, is probably his son. And I did so much research for it.

I got so into it. I got so interested in it. This is so interesting. And it really doesn't need vampires to make it any more interesting. And in fact, the vampires does make it less interesting. And so then I thought, well, this is what I should be doing. My wonderful agent, who had been in my agent, right from the beginning

said, well, this is what you should do. And so I wrote the proposal. Was this for Rubicon? Yeah. And then I got the commission. And I was so happy. I was so happy. I just enjoyed it with a kind of absolute kind of pure,

kind of like an ecstasy rush. Well, Dominic, your co-host talks. about you rising around with excitement sometimes. I don't think I write. I think he's, that makes me sound like you're rye a heap. That's awful. But that was the purest. And whenever I, whenever I write a book,

I have to get you now and I make tea or something, taking a break. I always have music that I play that gets me in the mood. And I remember for that, so there's, Julius Caesar joins a triumvirate. So Pompey and Carassas. And I played Ennio Morricone's music at the climax of the good, the bad and the ugly, where they're having the shootout.

Such good music. And of course, very Latin. So I would always play that. And it still, whenever I listen to that, it always takes me back to how brilliant I felt writing that, how much I enjoyed it. So that was great. I mean, that was a wonderful, wonderful kind of realisation. I could do this. I really feel when I...

Because I love the way you write, Tom, and I feel with your books, I think you're so good at setting tension. So I feel like I'm in a thriller almost. But if that is the case... Yeah. And I'm delighted to hear you say so. Then that is because of the apprenticeship

I did writing vampire novels. So it's not wasted time because you do have to control tension and pace. Yeah. I wonder... Was there ever a part of you? Or did you ever get into situations where you felt, I suppose, oh hang on, I'm with all these history people?

Because your background is English, did you ever encounter any sort of slight territorial hostility? Uh, I think there's a certain inbuilt, uh, um, Well, kind of like dogs, you know, cocking their legs on certain trees. But it's not really about what degree you did. It's about whether you are an academic or a popular historian. So who you're writing for?

Are you writing for an academic audience or are you writing for a general audience? I think that's the real division point. But, I mean, I think the borders between those categories they're not precise. And generally, I think that most people on both sides of that divide recognise that it's a very porous boundary. When you started, well, tell me initially how the podcast started because you had a very successful career by that point, didn't you?

Anyway, as a historian. So it's my brother, who is a historian in the Second World War, Tony Pasta, who we both know, former head of ITV sport, wonderful man. Don't tell your dad. I mean, if your dad knew you were working, not just... I know.

I mean, there's ICV and sport in there. I know, ITV and match of the day. I mean, it's all stacking up. Because Tony, his, I think his dad, maybe his mum as well, comes from Malta. And my brother had written a book about the... Malta's experiences in the Second World War. he had read it and approached my brother and said,

why don't you do a podcast on the Second World War? And so my brother signed up with Al Murray, and they did it. We have ways of making you talk. And he was doing, they were doing, they began this during the lockdown. But right down. And I felt a little bit about podcasts the way that my father felt about ITV. You know, if it was, I don't know, radio four or six music or something, that was five. because it was a BBC.

Sorry, can I just say this is a bit of a dandy type. I know it's not because it's got a smaller head. Yeah, it's just the right size, isn't it? And the right tail. Is it a Norfolk Terrier or something? I think they are.

Beautiful coast. There's a lot of bottom sniffing. It's like an academic historian meeting a popular historian. Oh, look, that always happens to Ray. I do worry about him, Tom. You know, when you talk about you when you were a very studious little boy

and buried in books, I feel that's a bit lightweight, but then I feel... Really? Well, he's really happy. I feel his life is all the richer. Yeah, I think so. Anyway, so I... He said he was doing this podcast.

I was a little bit sniffy. Because of the Radio 4, 6 music, Radio 3 kind of thing. It just seemed a bit in for a dig. But then he kind of explained it to me, and I thought it's out actually because I remember we after the first lockdown we went on holiday actually to Cornwall

we wanted to go to the beach and said I've got to record this podcast and he said I've got to I said why and he kind of explained it to me and so off the back of that I ended up talking to Tony and to the honchos at Gullhanger

and we discussed you know what should it be on ancient history or should it be the broad sweep of history and we were so arrogant that we thought we'd go for the broad sweep of history and so I immediately thought of Dominic who is a modern historian could counterpoint my interest in ancient history and so that's how we that's how we began it were you and Dominic friends yeah so we knew each other quite well we'd he once gave you a very good review for one of your books I noticed I couldn't possibly comment it was riveting couldn't possibly comment So we had the same publisher, that's how we met.

And when he was living in London, we saw each other quite a lot. Then he got married and went to live in the country. And we both had children. And it's just kind of, when your friends move out of town and you don't, and particularly when they have children, it then becomes more awkward to see them. So I didn't see him as much as I had done. and actually just before the lockdown we'd met up and said

we must see each other more. I never envisaged seeing him quite as much as I now see him. What is the secret to your chemistry? Because there is a real chemistry there and it just works. I don't know. Because I... It's not something that I kind of ever calculated. I suppose...

But you know when you talked about meeting... And you have... And you had that, oh, she gets it, when you mentioned the Beatles reference. Did you have a similar thing with Dominic where you feel you're speaking the same language? I suppose we are both very, very, very interested in history. So it's always nice where you share a passion. And I suppose because our interests are not in competition, they're complementary. I'm sure that's helpful.

And I think we have a similar sensibility and we have a, you know, he makes me laugh. I'm sure that that's all part of it. I guess we just enjoy talking to each other and always have done. And I guess enjoyment in talking to one another is what drives a podcast. Because when you enjoy talking to someone, all kinds of things will come out of it. you'll have jokes or strands or topics that are of particular interest. And it's a strange thing about podcasts, isn't it? That there's a weird, it's a very kind of intimate form.

I mean, you're just talking to a friend. And then everyone is listening to it. So it's simultaneously intimate and incredibly private. And because neither of us were at all familiar really with, the podcast format and we had come from doing radio and TV. I think we both kind of shared the journey. Our process of adaptation to it from doing the things that we'd done before, the books

and more traditional forms of media, we shared that process of working out what it was all about together. And how do you find the podcast has been presumably successful beyond your wildest dreams. Oh, I mean insanely beyond my wildest dreams. I mean, never in a million years. We thought we'd do maybe 20 or 30 and then, you know, hang up our hats.

And you've got celebrity fans, I hear, a lot. Grimes likes it. Well, possibly. She has occasionally expressed an interest, but actually she hasn't been seen for a while. Elon will do that to you. Yeah, I guess so. How lovely, I think your story's really lovely

because you strike me as someone who was never particularly thirsty for likes or attention. And I think often... Oh, I wouldn't say that. You know, we all like to do well. I don't want to imply that I'm sort of kind of modest saint. I'm absolutely not I mean I do like

I mean I'm absolutely gratified that people like the podcast for instance it would be mad of me to know that I don't how do you feel about the sort of increased focus and attention on you it's weird because it's not structured in a way that I'm familiar with so if you say you write a book

you know how you would be graded you know you get in the bestseller list or you know your book's in a bookshop or whatever and it's a form of success that you can aspire to. Oh, he's an imperial shih Tzu. Oh, do you like him? It's gorgeous. I was watching his little behind. Thank you.

Oh. He gets a lot of likes. A handsome boy. Yeah, he gets a lot of likes. Do you know, I feel so proud when he gets a little burst of attention like that. And how do you feel when you say he's an imperial shih Tzu? I feel really proud. That's a great phrase.

Do you notice I, I didn't need to say imperial, did I? Let's be honest. Was the imperial necessary, no. And I could see you looking. I think it was. I could see you thinking, oh, she's scorn imperial, has she? She's very classy to have a dog where you can literally say he's imperial. What do you know?

They were, it was a crime punishable by death to remove them from the royal palaces. I'm not surprised. I think I'd have got away with it. though. Yeah. But you were saying sorry. So... Yeah, so, I mean, what is success in a podcast? It's immeasurable. You don't really know. In a way, it's kind of perfect because occasionally people will say, oh, I love the podcast. But it's not like you're in the public eye as you would be if you were, I don't know, doing celebrities on ice or something.

There's your dad coming in again. Exactly. Sorry. No, it's all right. He'll show off his amazing haircuts. Oh, thank you. I know. He's got twigs in his bottom, unfortunately. I have to pull them out.

Nice to meet you. He's getting a lot of attention. Yeah, but I think... His imperial majesty. Yeah, but your ego's healthy enough to handle it. Not every celebrity likes it. Well, as you said, you know, some of us are kings and some of us are courtiers.

Well, some... Clearly a courtier. You're a quiet king. No, I think I... I feel honored to be following in his awake. Come on, Ray. I bet you're a good dad. Well, you'd have to ask my daughter, sat.

What's your strength as a parent and what's your weakness? I think my strength is that I just love them very, very much. I mean, ultimately, that's what you want from a parent, isn't it, I think? Sorry, Ray just wants to see. Hello, is that a Chihuahua? Chihuahua Yorkie. Chihuahua Yorkie, so cute. I like the little camo coat.

Oh, thank you. What's your one? This is Raymond. He's an Imperial Shih Tzu. Thank you. Is your dog Imperial? Sorry? Your dog's not Imperial.

No. My friend is laughing at me because I don't... She's just going around saying, he's Imperial. He is, he is Imperial. He is very Imperial. He is. That is his technical name. I know.

I just wanted, you know, the other guy to know, he was a little bit socially inferior. If you're an emperor, you want people to know, don't you? Well, I mean, I thought you would like it with your love of emperors. I do. I'm all over it. Do you know what?

I need to talk to you briefly about Rome, because how can you have this man on a podcast and not discuss Rome? you've got me back into Rome. Brilliant. Now, it started... I went back into I Claudius, the original BBC drama,

because I had... Yeah, because it was on in the summer, wasn't it? I remember, that's what very first got me into. You know you talking about that dinosaur book? My dad had said to me, read I Claudius, because it's like Dallas or something. Yeah.

And once you read that... Well, it's actually, you know what it's like? It's dynasty. Yeah. Because that was consciously modeled on I. Claudius. And actually, so, the dynasty was modelled on it,

and then that in turn provided an inspiration for the sopranos. So there's a sense in which I Claudius is the granddaddy of all those kind of... Dynastic soap operas. And I was very proud to say I was the Julia Claudian advisor on Succession. So if you've watched Succession, there are the mentions of Nero and Sporus. So Tom and cousin Greg are always talking about this. Sporus is the boy who gets castrated because he looks like near his dead wife.

It gets made to behave like near his dead wife. And it's completely, it has nothing to do with the plot, but I went in and talked to the writer's room just before they were beginning to write the scripts. And they obviously remember that bit and put it in. So I'm laying claim to that. But that's so interesting, isn't it, how it's so enduring. that sort of Roman set-up essentially. How fascinating would find it. Well, it's mafia as well.

I mean, so the Roman word patronus, from which we get patron, is also Padroni. So it's a kind of mafia, it's a familiar, the family of Augustus, which is what I Claudius is all about. He's the godfather who's going to succeed him, the codes of honour, the readiness to kill. I mean, it's very dramatic. dramatic. I couldn't put it down. In the way that I can't put one of your books down, I just feel what's brilliant, certainly about the way you write, is I feel I'm immersed in that world. And I sort of feel you're kind of representing a person living in that world, in a sense. Yeah, so I try and inhabit their heads to the degree that we can at the distance that we are from them. So I try and present the

world from their point of view, because I very strongly feel. that they're much more alien, the Romans, than we are inclined to think. We fix on the things that make them like us, but there are so many ways in which they're nothing like us at all. But they operate to their own internal logic and rhythms, and I want to try and articulate what that internal logic is. I was quite surprised to read that I assumed that, because Romans did so many bad murders,

and they were big on cruelty, let's be honest. I always assumed that they would have treated dogs with a bit of contempt and seen them as... No, they like dogs. But they actually, they had tombs and things to them. They did, yeah, they did. Yeah, and actually there's a wonderful Greek tomb to a pig that got run over by a lorry. A lorry? Well, it's kind of a runaway truck, laid it down.

It's adorable. So who's your favourite Roman Emperor then? Well, I think the one I most admire is Hadrian And I always liked Hadrian because he built a wall in Britain So I was kind of vaguely felt he was, you know, kind of English Which obviously wasn't at all, but I kind of like that But I have to say my favourite one is Nero who is so appalling I just so badly behaved

He's by Miles the most entertaining And the most interesting, I think Do you know you've made me love Nero I can't say that to many people Well, he's terrifying, completely terrifying. But kind of fascinating. Kind of grim charisma. I'm always worried, though, about when people get smeared.

He smeared himself, though. That's what's so interesting. So he kills his mother. And rather than conceal it, he kind of glories in it. Because killing your mother is what heroes in Greek tragedies do. So by playing the role of someone who's killed his mother, he is implicitly saying, I am like a hero from myth. And as a hero from myth, you're midway between the run-of-the-mill mortals and the gods.

So that's what Augustus means. Augustus means someone who's halfway between heaven and earth. And Nero is saying, this is what I am. I'm a hero in the kind of traditional Greek sense. I mean, it's a radical strategy. It's quite extreme. It's very extreme. But you know, what showmanship?

You are such an interesting man. Oh, we're very kind. I could literally, he can listen to you talk all day, which I do. And in fact, Ray, Ray only likes three things to listen. Ray's having an imperial pissed. Are you ever going to let me forget this imperial business? It's tremendous. I think you think I was being a little bit grand and narrow with my imperial.

You know, I love an emperor. I love an emperor. Ray listens to three things. There are three things that make him lie on his belly in ecstasy and just stare up at me in this blist-out way. One is Louis Capaldi, the other is any David Attenborough commentary, and the other is the rest of history. Oh, has he listened to Top Dogs?

Yes, we listened to Top Dogs. We listened to Top Dogs, and we heard about Greyfriars Bobby. Yeah, so that's how you came across the Dandy, didn't. Did I mention this? We've got the Titanic coming up. We're doing an episode on the Titanic and the there were 12 known dogs on the Titanic of which only three survived. So we've got, I mean he might find that a bit upsetting. He might, no, do you know what? I think he'd quite enjoy that because he feel very smart. So he would have the size. He would have got off. So it's a small dogs that made it off. But there was a great day in that obviously great day.

wasn't going to be good luck mate with women children and great danes first that wasn't going to happen has spending time with raymond does it make you think maybe you'd like to get a dog i would like to get a dog because um my wife has inherited from her father um a house in scotland where obviously that's incredibly dog you really need a dog i mean we just feel odd not having a dog But I just think I mean one of the reasons that you actually feel quite glad when your children can look after themselves

is that you can just go off and do things without worrying whereas dogs dogs in that sense are like children aren't they? That's true So the other thing I wanted to ask you how often do you think about the Roman Empire? I do obviously think about the Roman Empire because I write about it

and I talk about it a lot I'm going to need figures Well I mean obviously at least 10 times a day But if I'm writing a book I mean Essentially

I never stop thinking about it It's just a permanent zone And there's so much to think about So much to think about So much to think about That I'm sure I will never stop thinking about it My brain is just a constant Well it's basically

It's occupied by the Roman It's like, gawl. I'm occupied by, my brain is occupied by the Romans. I think even when you were a baby, you were thinking about the Romans. No, if I'd been a baby, I'd known about it. God knows what the impact would have been. The Romans didn't have a word for baby. Did they not?

No. What did they call them? So if I'd been a baby and I'd known about the Romans and the fact that they didn't have a word for baby. You'd have been furious. I'd have been livid. I'd have been absolutely livid. And it might have put me off them.

So in a way, it's quite lucky that I didn't. So we're getting to the end of our walk. I have to say, Tom Holland, I once read that the Dandy Dimm, which is a dog you had as a child, was described as the gentleman of terriers. Oh, yeah, I guess he is. Yeah.

You're the gentleman of historians. Oh, you're very kind. What a thoroughly nice man you are. As I say, I've deceived you. How do you express anger? I just let it boil away. Do you? Do you simmer? I nurture it in my heart, warm my hands by it,

and then it kind of goes out. Do you struggle with confrontation? Yes, I'm not very good at confrontation. I'd actually rather do anything than have a confrontation. What do you tend to do? Which is why I'd be a terrible Roman Emperor. I mean, I'd be very bad. How do you deal with it? Do you just...

I just think generally, I mean, it's a bit like brown envelopes, that if you just leave them, what's the worse it can happen? I mean, either they'll send you another brown envelope and you'll have to sort it out, or it will just go away. And generally, I think that, I think the best policy is usually just to keep quiet and let it go away. Do you cry, ever? I've been known to brush aside a manly tear. What makes you cry?

So I'll tell you... I was going to be a bloody Roman Empire. No, it's not. It's not. So because we're doing this thing on Titanic, I watched Titanic again, which I hadn't seen since it first came out. And I hadn't wanted to watch it again because I found it so traumatic.

The whole, you know, whether it goes bottom up and the bloat drops off and bounces off the propeller and everything, I found it so traumatic. And I couldn't believe that I was getting all choked up about it. because my daughter was watching it I think she was also getting choked up so we we had a father-daughter blub

well I've got a controversial opinion when it comes to Titanic you're not a fan no I think she should have ended up with that nice Billy Zane man yeah he's I mean he's he wasn't very nice but he would have looked after her and got her in the lifeboat

she would have lived is what I'm saying he's a great character I'd forgotten how enjoyably camp his villainy is. What do I like? He does that thing. Frank Skinner and I've got an obsession, which is people in movies or plays

refer to the future in a very knowing way. And it makes us physically sick when we're watching. Oh, I loved it. Pablo, what? He'll never amount to anything. Who is this guy, Pablo? He'll never amount to anything. Yeah, you see, I think it's the presence of cheese in Titanic

that actually makes it such fun. If it was very po-faced and serious, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining or indeed ultimately as moving. I'm the king of the world. I thought it was great. I'd forgotten how good it was. You see, you're interesting

because a lot of historians, you were saying that thing earlier about necessarily you're very focused on the past and that's your passion, but you have a very healthy interest in contemporary culture and popular culture as well, don't you? You're not a sort of...

Well, there are many ways to mediate the past. And actually, I particularly enjoyed watching Titanic, having read all about it. Because I didn't particularly know about it. But having immersed myself in it, and then watching it, and knowing what's true and what's not, and where, you know, in the script, things that have been lifted from journals or whatever,

So there's sentimental garbage which you must have listened to. So there's a brilliant episode on Titanic on that. Very, very funny about the obviously phallic qualities of Titanic that it's three inches longer than the second longest ship in the world. And all that dialogue about it doesn't look any longer than the Mauritania. And Billy Zane, oh, it's much longer than the Mauritania. Oh, and Billy Zane, oh, it's much longer than the Mauritania. much bigger.

Do you know what I think about you? You can make anything interesting because you're very passionate about when you talk about a subject, you're all in. That's why I love doing the podcast is because I can immerse myself not for months, but for a week, perhaps, or maybe longer sometimes,

in a subject that otherwise I wouldn't have the excuse to immerse myself in. And I've never done a single topic where I haven't ended up more interested in it by the end than I was at the beginning. What about if you've tired or maybe you've been out to dinner with friends? Do you think, oh, just give it a cheeky wiki on the way in? I absolutely would use Wikipedia. I mean, Wikipedia is incredibly useful.

I would never, never denigrate it. As a kind of signpost pointing you in different ways, it's incredibly useful. Do you know, I've so loved our war. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Have you? Really enjoyed it, yeah. Well, it's helped, hasn't it, that it's been a beautiful day and Brockwell Park has been looking at a suit picture. And Brockwell Park is beautiful.

Roman and I are going to come back here. It's always good to show a North Londoner, a good time in South London. Can I just ask what your final thoughts are on Raymond? I think he is imperial by name and imperial by nature. I really do. Bye, sweetheart. That was to Raymond, by the way. Yeah, it was. Just put that on the record. That's the risk of podcast, isn't it?

I really hope you enjoyed that episode of Walking the Dog. We'd love it if you subscribed. And do join us next time on Walking the Dog wherever you get your podcasts.