Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Walking The Dog Live - with Katherine Ryan

Episode Date: March 6, 2019

 This week in a very special edition of Walking the Dog, Emily Dean is interviewed by Katherine Ryan, in front of a live audience with their two dogs Meg Ryan and Raymond. They chat about Emily's new memoir Everybody Died So I Got A Dog, and Katherine asks her about her eccentric childhood, how she dealt with loss and the miniature Chewbacca lookalike who turned out to be her saviour. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Walking the Dog, we've got a guest who, I'm not going to lie, was pretty easy to book, because it's me. It's actually a live recording of my chat with the wonderful Catherine Ryan, who interviewed me with both of our dogs, Meg Ryan and Raymond, on stage at the Leicester Square Theatre. We chatted about my book, everybody died so I got a dog, which is a memoir about dealing with losing my family and my little savior Raymond, a shih Tzu who came into my life and sort of turned it around. I mean nothing's perfect. He's got terrible breath. But you take the highs, you've got to take the lows. I really hope you enjoy my chat with Catherine and our dogs and hopefully it'll give you an insight into why I decided to do this podcast in the first place. She didn't shy away from the tough parts of my story, but she was absolutely hilarious and I just adored chatting to her. So I hope you enjoy it as well. My book, Everybody Died So I Got a Dog, is out by the way this Thursday, March the 7th from Amazon and All Good Book. I mean, it might be in some bad book shops, but mainly good ones.

Anyway, I'm going to leave you to it. Here's me and Catherine. Good afternoon, Lester Square Theatre. We have a very special afternoon for you. Please welcome to the stage, the most fabulous Catherine Ryan. I shall put my book, everybody died so I got a dog, written by Emily Dean. I shall put that down right here. Thank you so much for being here this afternoon, Lester Square Theatre.

It is without further ado. I must welcome her. I'm so excited. I have like an intro because she's achieved so much and so much coming. She's a writer and a radio presenter. Are you listening to the Frank Skinner show on Absolute Radio with them? I'm like, yeah, just across the street. She's so busy.

She's just hopped along. It's an award-winning show. She's got the hugely successful podcast for The Times called Walking the Dog. She spent eight years as deputy editor of InStyle Magazine, and it shows. She's written for titles such as The Times, Evening Standard and You Magazine. She lives in London, supports Arsenal for some reason. And her career highlight was when Mark Gattis called her sci-fi royalty to her childhood role for the BBC cult series Day of the Triffids.

Am I pronouncing that correctly? I don't pronounce British things correctly a lot of the time. But please welcome the wonderful, the stunning, the glamorous, the genius, Miss Emily Dean. Okay, it's not just me, as you can see. They'll come. The dogs will come. Should we introduce them, Catherine? Megan, Maggie, Meg.

Well done, Violet. Maggie. That's Catherine's daughter, Violet, not some random child who just picked up in the street, by the way, Victorian gold handler. That is legal.

This is Ray Ray, Raymond of Emily and Raymond. I know you thought it was a moving hairpiece. It's not. I know. Merch is available soon. And then this is my dog. Not as good looking. Megan.

Megan. Oh, Kath, don't put yourself down. Come in. No, but she's not. But Raymond is so special, and we all know it. And plus he looks exactly like you. At first glance, Megan doesn't look like me

till you know me and hear my rapping. And then you know, I am also black and white. But you don't snore like Megan. But we didn't know, we should say, their brother and sister. I know. And this was kind of the soap storyline that none of us saw coming.

Yeah. And I forced myself to be friends with Catherine. Yeah. Well, let's talk about, okay. So let's tell everyone how we met. Yeah, because you come out of it well, and it's really embarrassing to me. I don't think I do. We might have different stories about, I don't know. How do you think we met? Okay. I feel we met. I'm going to put you down, actually, Ray. Go on. Go on see your sister.

I think we met at Jimmy Carles. That's very early for a name drop, isn't it? I'm sorry. Loads of name dropping in the book, and we'll get to that soon. It's so tantalizing. We mess at Jimmy Carles, and you claimed off. words that I came up to you and said, what did I say? He said, I think we should be friends. But what do you mean I claimed that? Well, like, you're on your seven. But I think that's a really nice thing to do because you go up to partners, don't you? Well, I don't. People go up to approach people romantically. So I thought, well, I like her. And I think I get a good energy and I'd like to be her friends. So maybe I'm just going to be bold and ask her.

You're very bold. And I don't want to let the cat out of the bag too quickly. I may have already done so, but when you're glamorous single women in show business as we are, I feel that we get invited to a lot more things because we don't have lamentable partners. Because

I know there was a long time in both of our lives where people would be like, oh, we can't bring her because she'll bring him along. And now we get invited all the time to these things because we're enginoes. And I know that we went to Jimmy's, was it that evening? We perform.

like the role of an escort. We entertain the husbands for two hours and then we just go back to our houses and we're no stress. Yeah, no stress. We come with a blowout, cute shoes. Blowout. That's hair, by the way. Okay. No, it isn't enough for me. This is why I love her. So we had been invited to an evening of wink murder. Yes. Do you know in the 70s, I think famous people used to do more things than that. But now Jimmy's parties are all about like board games, wink murder. I know, why weren't we around in Freddie Mercury's time? I know.

There was cocaine off, you know, small people's heads and things like that going on. But wing murder at Jimmy Cars. I'm more of a wink murder kind of gal. And we were invited because the numbers were uneven. Shout out Emily and Catherine. We show up. But I'd seen you there a few times and I'd remarked about how stylish you were, how lovely seemed.

You just float around the room, enjuing your way across all these parties. And then, no, we hadn't really spoken. and then you just said, I think we should be friends. I know. And you're right. And I was really inspired by you because I did also. I got Ray because of Catherine.

Because I interviewed Catherine for my Times podcast. And I just had always had this obsession with having a dog family, which I grew up in a family which could not have been less like a dog family, as you know. It was more the family where you'd say, you know, why is Granny being horrible to me? And my mother would say, because she's on amphetamines, darling. I told you. So the idea, so I'd always thought, well, I can't have that family, and that's not for me.

It was like I don't have a passport to that world. And then I met you, and I'm not saying you're like, you're on amphetamines or anything. But it was just that sense that, okay, this doesn't have an estate car and there's no lawyer, husband, and I always thought you needed that to get a dog, but turns out you don't. And I thought, I love this. There's just pictures of Catherine and Violet, and they're kind of, it just felt lovely and warm. and you'd created a space and you'd shaped your own world, I suppose.

And that was just really inspiring to me. And also you had a dog who looked like a gremlin and I thought, well, I can take care of that. Yeah. So that's how I go. Our little dogs aren't yippy. They're very stylish, quiet, really disenfranchised in many ways looking dogs, but they're perfect for us.

So that is the first sentence in your book. We... I like the way that you're trying to really PR our dogs and look at Ray's just like running wild. But this is not what you think of little dogs. They're not yipping. They're not... Just do that.

Don't, you know, allow yourself to be distracted by the dogs. That's why they're here. Yeah. He looks like my hairpiece. In fact, I know it's always moving. The first line in your book says, we would never be a dog family. And I love your book.

I've told you this. I love it so much. And you think that it's going to be harrowing, of course, because we know how it ends. but there's so much of it. Yeah, yeah. But there's so much of it that's specific and joyful and unique about your childhood and really about your sister Rachel's life.

So when you say we would never be a dog family to you, I know that growing up you had this idea that dog families were what? Dog families to me, and I don't know if anyone here comes from a dog family, if so I'm really jealous of you. because dog families to me they had things like Tupperware and they would I know but to me that's like

nonia that was like and they would watch programmes like life on earth you know and at Christmas they'd all gather around and watch it it's a wonderful life whereas we'd watch a sort of black and white French film about adultery

that would be our Christmas Eve and we had lots of writers and artists and it was kind of bohemian intellectual North London I suppose, although we were quite at the bottom wrong with the ladder, to be honest, we were quite aspirational. But it just meant that it was,

it was a stroke, where's gone? Oh, there you're found someone. If you want to pick him up, by the way, and give him a cuddle, you're more than welcome. You don't mind, you can pass him around. Oh, look. Catherine, you're going to have to bring him to every game. I know, I know. He's great. He's great. We just have to check people more carefully

before we let them hold our children. Yeah. Just bring your CRB check along. You're right? You're right with them pervert? You fine? Okay. You hold Ray Ray. You hold. So, you're a artistic. So to me, because my family was very, darling, she's on amphetamines. And just sort of, I mean, it was a benign chaos, but it was definitely chaos, you know. And so I had this sense of dog families just being, I'd never be, we'd never be like them. We would just never have a Labrador because also we moved around a lot. We had a very peripatetic.

childhood and I you know we were I say I think at one point in my book it's like we weren't going to be chased by retrievers we were chased by bailiffs that was kind of our existence so yeah and so then I think and that is that childhood longing isn't it for what you don't have which we all have and actually when I speak to some of my friends now they say oh your family looks so glamorous and you know it's so funny because you'd come to school with black in your teeth and we'd say what's that and you'd say oh it must be caviar I had for breakfast of course what they didn't know was that the caveat was bought on credit and it was all kind of smoke and mirrors. So yeah, I felt it was chaos and a kind of benevolent chaos, but nevertheless, I think probably as a kid you

do want a sense of order, don't you in your life? And I didn't have that with my parents, really. So, yeah, I just, I thought one day I'm going to join those dog families and I am going to have a Labrador. And then I didn't because, you know, I have this theory that, what sort of theory? I think most people agree upon this, like psychologists and stuff, that, you You do two things with a family pattern, don't you? You either can form or rebel. And whenever people say, oh, I'm just not affected by my family script at all. I'm like, yeah, all right, have some therapy because everyone is.

And I think what happens is if you grow up in a traditional family, you get people who are rebellious or people who go down that group. In my case, I went a bit sort of late nights and parties. And it was my sister Rachel, who she got the fowar and ball life, as I called it, the Moles Breath Door and the dog called Giggle and the kids and the husband and all that. And I think I sort of accessed it through her. I thought, right, I can have the dog family experience through her, which, you know, and that felt like that was enough.

Yeah. Well, I like that while your parents were running from bailiffs and sticking it to the man, the man was Herod's. You know, your mother would max out this herod's. I think that's absolutely fine. I love the family. some of my favorite parts of your childhood was when your parents would use Rachel's bed

for their friends to have affairs in that when they got cross with you they wouldn't tell you but they'd just quote Shakespeare and stick it to the cupboards like do thine own self be true a coward dies a thousand times before his death that's a great way to punish a five-year-old that's absolutely right

they would do both of the they would well the first thing with the bras yeah yeah that was an unfortunately experience was that my sister was like, what's this dirty grey bra in my bed? I mean, she was having an affair this one, but you could have at least got my son to her. Even as a child, I think I thought. Some of them like it dirty. Yeah. I know what? And my sister, and this was under a Peter Rabbit duvet, do they? I mean, please. And my sister said, what's this? And it was the casual nature with which my mother dispense this information. And you think most parents would say,

darling I'm really sorry I think she was probably smoking she normally was and staring a castle she went oh darling that belongs to Kerry she's passed away it's back everybody died you can't live all the dead it's great she said darling that belongs to Kerry

she's having an affair with the Paris office the Paris office I think he was some sort of I don't know we worked for the French embassy so we just maybe said but that's my bed were they in there They come and they do their afternoon thing and then they go.

What's your problem? Exactly. Deal with it. And the quotes thing was really weird. Yeah, we would come downstairs and if we'd done something really bad, I mean, this was a really bad thing. We would just see a note

and written in sort of my mother had taught herself calligraphy and it would just be, yeah, a series of Shakespeare quotes. But it's so brilliantly passive aggressive. They never said, girls, I'm upset with you. It would just be, to thine own self, be true. with a sort of flourish underneath.

I love that when you got caught with booze at school, she rolled her eyes, but when you said you wanted to quit piano lessons, she wrung her hands and said, those words hurt me deeply, Emily. I mean, you want a different family than you have. I feel like I want this family. Do you?

Although I'm interested to ask you, Kath, because I know you are, but your family over in this country at the moment. No, they're gone. Okay, we can say what we want. Did you, when I talk about the dog family, my family, which let's face it was, you know, I mean it was a bit of that shit,

but where do you identify in those two families? Well, we weren't normal, but we weren't as, I mean, we're from Canada, so we do everything a little bit less ostentatiously, perhaps, than British people. I wish that, you know, my

family were normal in an entirely different way. We'd wake up Christmas morning, and the dishwasher would be pushed against the door. And my mother smoked as well, and I'd be like, why is the dishwasher against the door? And she would like, because your father got in a fight with the uncles and I locked them all in the basement.

Why? What do you mean? I'd be like, okay. She was like, I don't want any of that violence coming upstairs, doll. You're like, okay. But anytime I wanted to be normal, my mother said two things to me.

She'd say, if we all like the same thing, we'd all be married to your father. And she'd also say, I'd say, I want to be like the other girls. Mommy, I want to be quiet and normal. Yeah. And she'd say, those bitches aren't normal.

They're ordinary. It's different. It was good. You see, I love that. But that's a brilliant attitude that she gave you. But things wouldn't happen like this. Your mother spent hours at the bloody Nigerian embassy picking up her sodding mother, pissed, of course.

You know, that's far more interesting than your uncle's being violent. Well, that was because my grandmother had five, I had five grandfathers because she had five husbands, so we would just meet these new ones and we'd go, what's his one call? Okay, let's talk about your grandmother because I've made some notes here. I love so many women in your life, Emily, were these just really groundbreaking, inspirational women, kind of like early settlers for what we are now. So I know your mother, or your grandmother, rather, Christine. Yeah, my mom's Christine, yeah.

Your mom's Christine. What's your grandmother called? Oh, who knows? She had about 10 names. She would literally change her name. Let's call her Ivy May. Josie, let's call her. That was one of her names.

Honestly, you would be with someone you'd go, don't call me that, darling. This one knows me as Josie. She would change her name because she had so many men. Oh. Yes. So she had the starter husband. She had the starter husband.

I think that was my grandfather. Okay. Honestly, I don't know. Then she married Bio the Nigerian, but he turned out to be a bigger mistress, which was unfortunate. it. So, and she took her

No, exactly. He took her to the police station and tried to report her for disobedience. I didn't go down too well. So yes, my grandmother, so she would, and she lived. And we, I mean, I thought my childhood was odd, but I mean, you know, it was a very whole my beer. Because when I would go over to my grandmothers, that was when the real madness would begin.

And she lived with her, we would be like eight or ten, me and my sister. and she lived with a male stripper. And, yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it? Really, he'd place to dump kids. But he would do his routines. I mean, he abridged them for us. He was really sensitive like that, and he never stripped off completely. No.

And my grandmother would be sitting there getting really drunk, and he'd be going up and down the thing, and my sister and I would be trying to look at cartoons going, why is this man taking his club? We don't care. So what do you think, girls? I mean, he was a gay stripper, can I say. But he was lovely

But it just was weird Because obviously then I'd go to the dog families And they'd be saying Should we play ludo? That's lovely! And I thought, I don't want to tell them about the male stripper. I don't think it's going to go down very well.

So I did on a sort of serious note I suppose when you're kind of absorbed in a slightly A call almost like a circus of a childhood And what I learned to do was shape shift a lot So if I was with the dog families Then I would change my whole vernacular and I would copy them, like a spy, I would say, Goody! Because I'd think, well, that's what they say.

And they'd use weird swear words. I mean, we'd use the C word and we'd use everything, whereas they'd say, that's a bit bloody bonkers. And I'd try and copy them. And then, of course, I'd go over to the male stripper and the bigamous Nigerian, you know, and it all changed. So I suppose that was the legacy that was possibly a negative thing, was just feeling I had to change all the time to fit in,

you know um and i don't i don't get the sense with your childhood when you talk about that and you talk about your mom i i get the sense that you were pretty much the same person you know i wasn't as clever as you obviously were see i this is why i just think you're so spectacular no it's true okay so i'll i'll say one thing about your grandmother and then back to you being a little spy um your grandmother was a great beauty in her day and we all know what that means a lot of women older women are described that way and uh you're right the whole Words of men my grandmother got through were part of her story, but she was the one driving the narrative. That shift that women entering middle age are expected to make from center stage coquette to hazy backdrop was one she refused to acknowledge.

Her sense of entitlement was never slung out along with her youthful beauty. If anything, it became an even more ferocious blaze. That's true. What a woman! Why do you want to be a dog family when you've got this woman? But, you know, I kind of realize that now. And actually, it was only oddly when writing it that I realized. God, I've had these incredibly influential women in my life.

I've been really lucky like that. And even my mother, it's like, you know, they were outliers. And women back then, there was that sense of, you know, I make that analogy about you were sort of carving through with a machete through the undergrowth. And you had to be, my grandmother, you know, look, maybe she had to live with a male stripper and marry five men because it was those extreme people that changed the landscape for people like us, really, you know. And God bless them.

Let's talk about another extreme person in the book, my favorite, Lindsay DePaul Yes More name dropping Lindsay DePaul Started hanging out with your mother So we should explain

Because some of the younger people here Might not know who she is But she was a I'm assuming younger people I'm probably all 70 I can't see you properly But you look great She was a pop star

In the 70s 80s And she was well known For having a beauty spot here That was kind of her thing And she saw me I saw her, she was our neighbor basically, and I saw her painting it on one day.

She went, don't tell any journalists when you're on the Daily Mail. I was like, seven. Hello, diary. But she was known, you know, interestingly, she always controlled her own sort of destiny as well, and I just admired her. She was like,

well, you say what you were going to say. I just love her so much, because I'm from Canada, obviously I didn't know Lindsay DePaul, but I came here and I learned about her through you and through your book, and you always speak about her with such love, and she, She is largely a reason that you're such close friends with Jane Goldman. Yes.

From childhood, from infancy. Lindsay DePaul. So she and your mother started reading a woman in her own right in the 80s. And they started getting really feminist. It's ruined our lives. And Lindsay said to you, there are so many quotes, not just from Lindsay, from your mother, from your entire family, that have been transformative in my life now. She said to you, when you were small, Emily, I bought this house myself so no man can tell me what to do in it.

She did, yeah. And that's what you and I have done now. Oh, yeah. You hear that? I bought this house myself, so no man can tell me what to do in it. And she dated many famous men that you mentioned in the book, Ringo Starr, Doty Fayed, Dudley Moore, James Coburn. Yeah, so Uncle James, please. Uncle James.

No, so James Cobra, he was in The Great Escape and Magnificent Seven. Oscar winner? Yes. And he would say, like, yeah, my friend, Steve, and my sister would go, I think that's McQueen. think he means Steve McQueen. But yeah, I was really interested in their relationship because what fascinated me about it. And again, I've only realized that in the process of writing the book that she was the first, because I grew up in the 70s, a little old than this one. And I... No, I've just had more work. It's great, by the way. I was just conscious that their relationship

was different to a lot of the others because, again, I think that there's less the case now, but back then the women of that generation, I think, you know, my mum's generation, and probably your mom's to a lesser degree, because she's younger, but just that sense of having to tread around men a bit. And Lindsay just didn't do that. And she would just speak to him in this way. She'd be like, James, do they, that. And I think, well, he's a movie star.

This is a terrible idea. You can't speak to him like this. But it was like they were two independent people that had been brought together. And, yeah, she was actually quite an important role model. for me, I think, Lindsay. She'd say brilliant things like that. She had this transatlantic accent, and she was very glamour.

She'd wander around in this long white coat, like Corella DeVille. She'd come into the house. My mother would say, do you mind if I smoke? And she'd say, I'd rather you crap on the carpet, but sure, go ahead. She would just, I'd go, oh, she just, like, slammed me. So she was, but she was incredible, yeah.

I love her, and then when her relationship ended with James, nothing changed for her. Her friends were the same. Her life was the same. You wrote, she didn't seem diminished by the removal of James's unquestionable power and status.

Her life remained intact. Yeah. And I think, you know, we have lots of different friends and our path seems to be an unusual one. But I love that. And you talk about all those who wanted to live a life

that was based on being more than an adjunct to someone else. Yeah, I think that was true. And it was funny because I know now, we used to always talk about Lindsay. And I think the narrative was always she's impossible, she's a nightmare and as a child you absorbed that

and that was very much how people talked about her and it's only as I'm older I think Megan I mean come on I was coming to the big conclusion she, it's only now I'm older that I've thought was she a nightmare or was she just asking standing up for herself and there was an interesting story about her

that there was again there was a pop singer in the 70s called Gilbert O'Sullivan and he got ripped off by his manager there was a notorious manager where she called she won't go So I go and get her? No, no, no, no. He was ripped off by his manager.

He was ripping loads of people off, and he didn't rip Lindsay off. Ah. Apparently Sharon Osborne went to the bathroom and Lindsay's suitcase, because she was such a nightmare to deal with. Sharon Osborne thought she was a nightmare. Yeah, so there you go. That tells you a lot. Wow.

So back to you, Emily, learning to be transformative and always fit into whatever situation you found yourself and you were a child actress. Yes. And is it true that your mother turned down an offer to play Meryl Streep's daughter in a film? Yeah, and I'm so fine with it.

It's no big deal. No, do you know what? It was really weird that, because as I was older, it was just a bit of a shock and she did tell me, my sister told me, she told my sister, and Rachel was just having an argument, as my sister Rachel with my mum and she just said, I must have been about 30.

And Rachel said, Well, it's like when you used to get all those parts. And, you know, you got that job when a French left-ended woman playing Merrill Streep's daughter, and Mom turned it down. Yeah, what? And it was just, oh, my God. And so then you end up having this ridiculous family row, which ends with me saying, you know, I could have had Merrill Streep on my speed dial.

But I actually think a friend of mine, Tony, a friend of journalism, said, yeah, but you would have been an absolute fucking nightmare. And I said, but I'm in a nightmare anywhere and I haven't got the money. I think probably it was the right thing for me because I think as I've got older I've realized, you know, it's acting probably wouldn't have been right for my personality and she did me a favour, but I do think

it was a complicated thing to find out if I'm honest, all that. What's another page in the book of your family dynamic because she didn't turn down the role because she thought she was helping you? No, I think she did it. No, I mean, it's funny. I think she did it ostensibly because she had this idea,

and again, this happens a lot in families, that without realizing it, I always think you have a script, essentially, and parents decide, you know, you hear it with families, and I'm very conscious when someone says, she's good as gold, he's a nightmare, he's the bright one, she's the pretty one, or, you know, this happens, we can't help it, we do it,

and I think the role was black swan and white swan with me and my sister, and she was angelic and she was good, and, you know, and I was just messy and rebellious, So I think she had this idea that that would upset Rache. And of course Rache said to me years later, she went, I didn't give her shit. You know, she really didn't care. So, but that was an odd hurdle to overcome.

And like I say now, I feel compassion for my mum because I also think she was an actress. Things haven't gone so well for her. You know, and then you've got an agent calling saying, yes, you're eight-year-old there, please. So I understand that. Well, there's a passage in the book about that and about Rache. should speak about Rachel before we have the interval that I loved because I think it's so beautiful about Rachel

and what I love so much in the book is I didn't know Rachel, I hear about Rachel from you but also this is all pretty recent. I do love her. And you write, Rachel's designated role was that of unconditionally adored, grateful heroin. As our family journeyed through gasoline alley throwing lit matches, she walked behind,

smothering each blaze before it spread out of control. There was a twist to the Adderation, we all felt for her though, she was simultaneously up on a pedestal but perceived to be fragile at risk of underappreciation. If I got a good school report or compliment, there was often a whispered suggestion

that we play it down. Yeah, no, there was very much that sense and it's, again, it's only an adult life that I've realized I tended to do that. I think when that happens to you in childhood and you get a sense of standing back, it's like it's only, it was therapy,

when a therapist sits there and says, yeah, you were deputy editor, you were a sidekick. And I was like, oh yeah. Like second in command suited me. So I had this sense of, I don't know I'd inherited the look at me, Jean, which you've got. You know, I had a thing called the look at me gene. And I think, we all know it.

Sometimes one of a partner is the look at me personally. I'll tell the story, okay. And I think if you have the look at me, Jean, you need some sort of an outlet for either a job. And I think I had that. But what I didn't have was, I didn't feel I had a right. to sort of demand attention. Like I used to think, well, I need to steal it occasionally. So yeah, but learning, and actually Frank Skinner,

who I do want to talk about, because I really think Frank was the person who actually had sort of slightly changed my life, really, because he just sort of had faith in me, and it just takes one person. It's not Lady Gaga, it just takes one person. Just one. Actually, if I did that to Frank,

he'd say, oh, sure, up. I'm glad to hear you're not fucking Bradley Cooper behind his wife's back. What's the deal with that? What's the deal with that? That poor woman has to sit there going like that while they're sort of smother on you.

I mean, that's awful. What would you do in that situation? Take the money and continue not to care. I don't know. I don't think Irina Shakes coming out with any beautifully written books. Maybe she is. I don't get the sense that she cares.

She's at the Oscars. How else are she? going to get to the Oscars. Yeah, you're right. Victoria's Secret just closed 58 shops. I love that, you know that. 58. I mean...

So Frank's going to... So I think with Frank, I just really had the sense that he... He just sort of took a bit of a risk on me, you know, and I think I was known as kind of... Well, you were saying at the top of this sort of chat, the funny girl at the party, you know, the girl that would come in

and sort of make conversation and says, is everyone who cares, everyone got a drink? Because I felt that was enough. and that's a role that I could play. And it was Frank who sort of just called me and said, look, I've been off at a radio show. And I just, I felt like vomiting. I just thought, I can't do this, I can't do this.

And he's just really a bit pushy, and he just had a faith in me. And I think when someone has faith in you, that's really, I like that Meg keeps making those noises all the point you know, it's really, I told you she can't stop. She's trained. But I think when someone has faith in you,

It's just infectious that, isn't it? And you sort of think, oh, maybe it's okay. And maybe I can do this. And I'm so grateful to him for that because I was terrible when I first did it. I mean, I can't, someone gave me advice and said, I don't know if you felt this was stand up, but it takes you a while to sound like yourself. Is that true?

Oh, I think it's so crucial to have an authentic voice in anything that you do. And unfortunately, you run around with all this unbridled sexual power when you're 20 or 22 and everybody gives you maybe attention or opportunities and puts you in situations when you don't have authenticity and you don't have courage like you do now and there's just no shortcut to it all of a sudden somewhere in your 30s or 40s you step into your authentic voice but it is absolutely essential in in this yeah for certain so you feel like frank saw that in you know i think frank just had that he he just sort of said you know it's funny because

i knew i wasn't great to begin with but he just stopped with me and I think I was just lucky because on radio you get those breaks you know if you go on a panel show and you're not great the first time then that's it but I think with radio you know we just got to make a conversation and no I was listening like three men in Birmingham and a whip it was like it was fine

so I could just sort of do what I wanted and thought that man in Birmingham will be hung over he won't care and so yeah but he's it's been and I've learned a lot from him actually and I've learnt a lot from him which again I mentioned in the book about sort of being honest and you know

He always says this weird stuff, Frank. He says, you know, you can... What's that thing he says about the funeral? He says, you know, you can spend your whole life trying to be liked. But at the end of the day, the size of the crowd at your funeral will largely be dictated by the weather. And it's kind of true, you know, and I sort of remember that. It's like, look, just be who you are anyway.

You know, so... But I think there are, to go gar-gar again, there are people like that that you meet sort of mentors, and he's really been one for me. and you have as well actually so no but you really have but you really have just because

I haven't all I'm doing this entire time is trying to keep my badge in and I don't you ruined my talk I doubt because we have to pierce the earnestness we both do that

because I don't think Frank Skinner you know they just they don't have to wear stuff like this how's that can I put you on permanent badge watch don't cover his eyes I need him you just say if you can see anything can you say because i do not wear knick or die um how we do

we have time by the way no i do no i do we're fine we're also fine okay so um there are many there are many frankisms in the book i love that you're so close with frank skinner what i noticed about you straight away and you've transformed my life go on um go on look at that so harrogone go on tell me about how i've transformed your life no and this book will be transformative to so many people just looking for that extra push, I think, because all these men and women, but mostly the men that I've known for a long time in entertainment, it's so amazing to see how you are one of the lads, lads, lads, lads in a big way. They respect you, they include you. You're not a threat to their partners. Their partners love you. You're out with the girls. You're out with the boys.

You are very good in any situation, dog family or otherwise comedian or pop star. I guess that's from hanging out with Lindsay DePaul and Ringo Starr and all these different people throughout your life. Yeah. I think, I don't know. I think you just fit in anywhere. You seem so quietly confident and serene all the time. And I know that there's a time in your life when things got hard and we'll talk about that after the interval. But when you got a drink.

When you got a, yeah. That's all I have to drink. Day drinking. The best kind. She loves day drinking. But when I first decided that we were going to be friends mutually at the Wink Murder Party. I loved that you weren't panicked about being single. I had just been through a breakup and I just bought my first property.

And when you and I spoke about these really meaningful pieces of property and transforming and putting rose gold and brushed copper and dark Scandinavian florals and all these things, creating space or owning space, again, it's about authenticity but in real, like, you know, literal sense in our case. I loved that. I loved having a girl crush on someone who I thought was so sophisticated and so clever. Some of this book, I had to look it up. Like, I didn't even know that Gandhi rang Hitler, wrote him a letter.

He didn't. He didn't, what's happened? He sent him a letter. He said, dear friend, I mean, you wouldn't call Hitler friend, but he did. He said, friend, I'm writing to you for the sake of humanity. Yeah. But that's my weird family. that's because that's just, there's probably stuff that you know from your family.

No, I wouldn't know. And you like football and you've got a new football show coming out in Sky. They've hired zero female comedians, just male comedians and you. So you're obviously doing something right. You like football and you're funnier than all of us? How do you do it? No, that's not true. But I do, I think it's interesting what you say about the fitting in thing.

And I did, you know, I think for a while, I, someone once said, called me the comic whisperer and I didn't know how to take that like the dog whisperer which is but I think it just you know in a weird way I hope what's happened now is something that was possibly a bit of a negative to me when I was younger which was this sense of being a chameleon just wearing too many coats and not having a sense of myself really now now that I've sort of worked on that and been through some tough times I feel actually no it's a good thing it means that it's about um being able to fit into any It's been portable, isn't it? You need to be portable.

Well, look, you can be a dog family and be portable. Some of these dogs can be very portable, quite literally. We're going to have a break quite shortly. Let's talk about Giggle. Giggle. Giggle's not here today, but he, Giggle was, he is my sister's dog, actually. And it's interesting, I really stopped myself talking in the past tense sometimes when I talk about her. Because Jane Goldman, who's, as you say, is my childhood best friend

I don't know. She's doing well for herself. Yeah. What's your best friend doing? She's doing Game of Thrones? Great. I thought, I've written a book. I thought I'd done all right. But she, yeah, it's interesting. She said something really important to me. She said, when my sister passed away, she said, I'm not going to say passed away, but she died, okay? She died. And she said, she's still your sister. She's always your sister. So, you know, you get that sense of losing your identity. And actually, you don't have to say she was my sister. She is my sister. Sorry, that. That's like a language policing thing, which I've now involved you in and wasted your time.

But there you go. What was your question? I'm a little ADHD. Sorry. Rachel getting giggle. Yes. And you say giggle was far more than a dog. He was the embodiment of the path in the woods

Rach had chosen. The one signposted National Trust picnic area. In contrast to the one I had taken marked danger. You're a bare country. Yeah, yeah. It's true. She got giggle.

And to me, that's, you know, my obsession with the dog families, that was just the full stop at the end of what I felt was her sentence, whereas, I don't know where I was, somewhere around Word 3 and some mad, crazy, long paragraph. And she,

it was just those beats of convention, and there was something about the dog. I always thought of them as like the little beating heart, the centre of a nuclear family. And he is a half pug, half chihuahua, a chug. They're adorable. They're so lovely.

I mean, he's not aged so well. I'm not going to laugh. He looked really cute, but he's got really wonky teeth, which is cute on a puppy sort of gruffalo. Yeah. The underbite. Yeah. It's a bit, can't you maybe get them fixed, maybe?

I'll send him to my guy. Yeah, okay. But he's adorable, and actually I really did. It was the first experience I had. I'd always loved dogs and the concept of them, but it was the first direct experience I'd had of them being comforting when I lost my sister and my parents. And it was just that thing of other people tread around.

you a bit. They try so hard, but it's tough, I've done it. You'll sort of, or shall I call them? Shall I text? I don't know. And when it's a grandparent, it's odd, it's easier to get in touch with someone. When it's a sister, it's like, I'll just leave it. And what I sort of loved about giggle is that I'd just be crying or upset, and he wouldn't care. He just, there was no subtlety with dogs, which I quite like. They just throw themselves at you and start leaking you. And it just felt really restorative. I thought there was a very uncomplicated purity and simplicity about the love that you get from a dog. And I just, he brought me, giggle, lured me over to the dog's side, as I call it.

And then I met him. I know, he's just the best one. I'm so glad you got Ray. Okay, so we're going to ask you at the interval to ask some questions, but I'll tell you this before we go, because it's all been very light and all about your amazing family, and it's all in the book, and it's so funny, and there are so many references in here that made me a smarter person, and I just laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and cried and cried, but not yet.

And that one chapter about Giggle and Rachel's rom-com by Richard Curtis's life, it's written like a screenplay. Oh yeah, I really hope. This book is a film one day. I just loved it. It's so funny up until now. But I'll say something not sad.

I find it uplifting before we go to break, if you don't mind, unless there's anything you would like to close me. No, go for it. Okay. I'm just happy sitting there with my t-shirt. I mean, we're all getting the t-shirt. Okay.

my aunt is a midwife, and so she's seen a lot of people come into the world, and she's seen a lot of people leave the world, as I know you have seen a lot of people leave the world. And she definitively concludes that something comes in when you're born, and something definitely goes out when you die. She believes in a soul very much, and she's been in medicine in Ireland for several, several, several years. And she had a dream that she was coming to the end of her life, and her legs were getting heavy, and she didn't know why, but in the dream, she was certain that she was coming to the end of her life. And she reached this place where she was told that she could put her energy into different people that had touched her throughout her life. And it was a system of balances and she couldn't overtake someone with her energy. But she could choose the people that she loved. And that energy obviously cannot be destroyed. And it would never die, but it would go on in those people. And I believe that when she said that to me. I think it's my own, like making sense of death.

And I think I would love to firmly believe, and I hope that you do, when you talk about the past and the present and Rachel, of course, she was the one. She was the person for you. She was your best friends. You're a sister. I think it makes so much sense that you have a dog family because loads of Rachel now lives on in you. And now you have Ray. And you have that family. And I just, I can't wait to hear more about Rachel and about getting Ray and about that grief. and how you overcame it. So let's hear it, please, for the first section with Emily Dean. Welcome back, Emily Dean, everyone. I know that's from you now. Then I'll be rude. Can we give a shout out to Catherine's daughter, Violet, by the way? I just want to share her because she's my favorite child.

Oh, it's terrible. I'm going to get in such trouble. She's not used to it. I don't let her out. I know. I really don't. I'm quite like your mother, aren't I? I'm like, sorry, darling, you didn't get it.

Anyway, you should have done that. Darling, we're busy. Yeah, I just can't bring myself to smoke like our mother's dead. Your mother is dead. Yeah. Tell us about that. I mean, you could have broken it to me a bit of an easier way. I just thought, let's get right into it.

It's the grief section, and it's done so formidable with the moving on and healing, and it's going to touch all of us one day, If it hasn't already, thank you for being here if you've been through some terrible grief. Emily, what happened in five years, everybody? Three? Three, oh my God. All right.

Well, it was kind of, yeah, you get sort of into the grief Olympics, like Trump's life, just three years, they all died in. But, yeah, it was just the speed. And I always say, look, this happens to all of us. Quite literally, it will happen to all of us. But experiencing death is never great, but it's an inevitability, as we all know. I think what was tough about this,

And I suppose what was slightly, you know, out of the normal, was just the speed at which it happened. And also, typical my family, they all went in the wrong bloody order, you know. Right, my sister goes first and then my mother and then my father. And that was, yeah, so it was sort of, I think I say in the book, death became like a season, you know, it was just an inevitability. It was like, oh, right, it's another one, another one, another one. And it felt like it was the box set of grief.

I just binged on it, you know. and I didn't stagger it out. So that has inevitably, I think that has long-term effects on you because you're lurching from, you're in permanent adrenaline and crisis mode. You're going, oh, I'm just dealing with that. Oh, shit, another one. Oh, God, another one. And you don't get a chance to fully process the feelings you have.

You know, my sister's death was very complicated because it's a life interrupted. You know, it's not the sort of natural order of things, essentially. Expect to bury your parents. But your sister, you think you'll get a bit longer. You know, so, yeah, it was, it was tough, obviously. But I think, strangely, out of it has, there have been a series of quite big life changes, I think. And, yeah, it's the rock bottom thing.

You just have to start, again, you start from scratch. You think, right, I've got nothing. Okay, well, what's the worst that can happen? It already did. So. I love that in your book when all of a sudden you seem emboldened by this idea that it's the worst thing that could happen, has already happened, what else can happen? and when someone asked you why you were crying

you said, well, anytime I'm crying, if you see me crying, I'm crying about Rachel. That's why I'll be crying. I like New Emily. You know, it's obviously tragic and I think reading the book as a talented, beautiful young mother myself, um,

um, no, but there's a, there's such, uh, I wouldn't call it an undertone, a massive overtone of, injustice that this young woman with a 10 year old and a one year old, you don't think, I mean, I would hope that women like that are invincible. I would never dream that they could go from being at dinner with you just shortly before Christmas and being dead in three weeks.

And I definitely have learned in this country that British people, and I love you so much, they seem to be super hesitant to ask questions. And I think the worst, thing that you can do for me anyway when someone is grieving is to look away to ignore them and not to give them space to talk about that grief so yeah tell us about whatever you're comfortable saying about how rachel died yeah and then how should we approach someone in our own lives who's had some train wreck experience like that well it's interesting because i agree with what you say and um i was only conscious of that really i suppose when it happens to you because it was exactly how I behaved with other people, if I'm honest, and we all do it.

It's things like, there was one thing I noticed, which was so sweet and so well-meaning, but people would often cite, in order to be empathetic, you'd say my sister died. And it would nine out of ten times, people would say, well, I know this, because my sister's cousin went through it, or my, you know, or it would be more immediate, or my grandmother went through it, my mother went through it. And you feel so unreasonable. But at those moments, I would feel I can't take on your story as well. My narrative space can only inhabit this, and I can't share this space with you right now.

And I know what you're trying to do is empathetic, but I don't want to hear about this. And you feel awful, but that's the reality. So I think I just learned that. I thought, just listen. When someone's talking, it's not like, oh, this happened to me. It all comes from empathy. But actually, the best thing is just to be quiet and say, okay, tell me what happened. And I think also, I heard a really good thing is that Cheryl, I can never say her name, Sarmberg.

She keeps changing it. I know, right? Sorry, she'll be on the run soon. Not going well. She, I heard her Desert Island Discs, which I don't know if you, any of what you guys heard, but it was incredibly moving. And, you know, there was some amazing things in it about just ringing her friends and saying, just come, just get here. And she also said something, which is a great tip, I think, which is never ask someone how are you? Because for a time, someone asking me that, it felt such a huge question. I couldn't

even answer it. I thought, I don't want to burden you with my pain. Well, I'm shit. I'm going to be shit for a while longer, but you don't want to hear that because it's a British social nice to you. How are you? So you just say, how are you today? And as soon as someone would ask me that, I'd think, I can answer that. Thank God, because actually I'm right today or I'm not so great. So yeah, little things like that are kind of really useful, just the sort of navigating it. It's It's hard to know what to do, isn't it? There were some beautiful parts about even, was it, intensive care or palliative care, when no one spoke, it was very dog-like.

Everyone lived in the moment. No one spoke about tomorrow. And I know that your family changed the patterns of their language not to speak about months away or days away even. Yes. And I very much had that sense. You know, it's really weird, isn't it? Because we've all seen it on telly.

You've watched, you know, Grey's Anatomy or whatever, or that's where I got all my death experiences from. And you'd see people in sort of hospital beds and they'd say these things and it would be, it's okay, Mama, I love you. And then they'd slip away, a little bit of pink on the cheeks, maybe, nice blush and Mac blush.

And of course it's nothing like that. I'm sure there are people here who've experienced that. And what was really strange for me is that lack of an ending. There's no full stop. It just happens. And I had a real sense that when my sister died, I thought, I can't say goodbye to her.

Because if I sit down and get her, give with a big Graze Anatomy speech, I'm sort of seizing her moment. I'm saying, you're going, so I'm going to, and I thought, well, I wouldn't want to hear that if I was her. What, someone's, you know, sit there, can't talk, and someone's telling you you're going to die. I'd, I wanted to feel she was just going to sleep,

and we were just chatting, because I thought, maybe that's a calmer way to go. So, yeah, we just chatted about ridiculous things, and, you know, I would tell her about the doctor who I made a fool of myself in front of. And I knew she'd love stuff like that, you know, So, yeah, it felt, again, we were talking on her about being authentic, and that really taught me as I had a moment with her as well when she was,

we just shared a moment of laughter, which it was one of our last moments together, actually. And I didn't talk about that in the book, I think just because it was ours, and it felt intimate. I don't mind sharing it with you guys, because you're all right friends, aren't you? But she, we took the piss out of my mum's clothes. And it was just with a look, and it was something we'd always done. And my mum was sitting there, and she, I mean, she was, an actress so she dressed I mean it was an absolute mess but she had on a black sort of shift dress

with big square pockets it was it was like a sort of someone from the 60s dressing from the future that's what she looked like and I thought we're in intensive care I mean I can't say anything but I'm afraid I'm going to have to and my sister just looked at me and I said I said I said well the real tragedy is of course mum's outfit And you know what? She looked up and she looked at me and it makes me cry, thinking about it. She just looked at me and she smiled and I was like, oh my God, yes, this is brilliant. We bonded over mum's terrible clothes.

This is so brilliant. But I'll always have that moment of just thinking, wow, that was just really special. Because it was funny and it was her and it just gave me that real sense that she was, she still had that humor, which it was our thing and she still had it. How good of you to always be there? I knew you're going there every day. And she was out of it a lot of the time at the end. And I love some of the strong moments that it brought out on you. I think you are an excellent custodian of the end of life.

Not only have you written this beautiful tribute, none of my sisters can even read. But also, you said to the nurse who said, no, she's had too much diazepam. Oh, yeah. You said she's got cancer. Give it the fucking drunk. I sounded like some scarface, like Al Pacino.

I was really embarrassed. I would just give her the drugs. Give her the fucking drugs. Yeah, I did say give her the fuck. I swore at the nurse, yeah. So I was trying to pretend I didn't, but I did. But it's weird that sense of, you know, I don't have children, because I forgot.

But it's funny because I imagine it's how you are over violet. You know, it's that sense of almost, she just poked her head around. Yeah, he talked about you. That sense of rationale almost goes out the window. And I felt like that with my sister. I just felt I don't care. I just want her to have her meds.

And I felt utterly focused on that. And so, yeah, it was, it was, but it was sort of, I don't know, again, I'm sure people have experienced loss in this room, but there's no good or bad death, is there? You know, some people have a year or two years with, you know, family members and friends. And in our case, it was three weeks. It was, I feel a bit fluy.

And then she suddenly, three and a half weeks later, she died. It was like, yeah, it was a week before, which a week after her daughter's first birthday so that was just, it was tough, you know, but, you know, it's... And then my parents died not, yeah, there was sort of, my mum got motor neurone disease and she died pretty soon after that,

and then my dad died, which was complicated because I was kind of estranged from him, and that was... But again, with both of them, I felt, I feel now, I just feel such love for them, and it's taken me a long time to get to that place, but, you know what I mean, I love that... They were different, they were other...

They were weird, you're a bit weird, I'm a bit weird, and that's what I love. I embrace the other now. I like that. Yeah, well, I like that. You know, you've found peace on the other side, even though both of them, your mother and your father, after Rachel's death,

still... My dad is alive, but he was just here and left yesterday. The negging of that generation goes on and on and on. Your dad is hilarious. It just been so rude at every chance he gets all the time, but even as your

your parents were dying, they managed to say some pretty rude things to you. Yeah, my dad, yeah, they nagged me on the deathbed, which isn't great. But I think there was just that sense, I don't think they realized it. And I think because my dad always spoke in that, you know, he spoke in that very, overly honest way to children. Your dad had his finger on the pulse of what was going on. That's what I'm getting for that. Why didn't he say anything?

Come on. Listen, he did. Yeah. I'm sure he did. He was telling six-year-olds. He was telling everyone he could. It's not his fault. No one paid attention back then.

No one, listen. But I think that sort of extended kept to his... You know, in a way I see that in a benevolent way. He said the wrong things. You know, when my sister was dying, he walked in. He started going about a Hockney exhibition, going, I mean, a Hockney's graphic strengths. And I was like, it's a deathbed.

Stop. It's not a late night arts review show. He was. He was going, I mean, it's on until April. Yeah, she's going to be dead. So why would you want to be? I don't know about an exhibition, an April, you weirdo. But I sort of have an odd...

I know this sounds weird, but I think, of course that was going to be that way. Yeah. You know, the man said he's commonly considered to be a paedophile. So he was always going to get it a bit wrong. But I sort of want to remember the things he got right, which was, you know, just that sense of his energy and his eccentricity and, you know, all that fabulous stuff that made him special and all my family. Well, they were definitely authentic.

We can say that about each person in your family. Yes, this is true. I like that very much. Then you had a obviously really tough time. What I loved learning about was some of the Hoffman process, and when he said, everyone is guilty, no one is to blame. Yes. Did that have a big part in your forgiveness? Yes, so everyone in this room is guilty, souls.

But the good news is no one is to blame. And that was a really powerful thing. thing and a lot of people say that and what that's about is looking at again i don't know if people have had experiences you know complicated we all have complicated relationships with family members and friends and loved ones and what that sentence teaches you or that phrase is that you know we're all underneath it all everyone sort of struggling you know and you have this thing one of the things i did on this process is it i had to sort of imagine my parents as kids which sounds really weird but you have a photo of them as children

and it's really odd when you're angry with someone and you look at a picture of them as a two-year-old child you just see their vulnerability and you see that you just feel a kinship with them and you can't be angry

in the same way I can't be angry with him so that was really important to me and I do try and remember that you know and I sort of say I mean it's something I try and remember you know it's hard I still snap at the Akado man or whatever but then I sort of remind myself afterwards and you know you still mess up not perfect but I found that important just also looking

at your own behaviour and taking your own responsibility because another thing they say on this process I did it's a seven day retreat in Ireland and I mean it's terrifying you get there take away your laptop it's like orange is the new black it was literally oh my god I'm in prison take away your laptop at your phone no books no reading nothing and you say but but how can I have nothing to read with and they say what terrifies you about being with your own thoughts So, but it was life-changing. And I did learn a lot. And I think the other thing I've learned is that you can't change.

I said to the guy who ran the thing at one point, I said, but sometimes people, it's actually someone else in our group who said it. He said, sometimes people are just absolute shit. You know, this whole thing about recognize your own behavior. What if someone's horrible? And he said, well, that's true, that you can't change other people. But you say you change your response. And you know, that's the idea.

Well, then you felt better. Not, you know, it's a work in progress, but you felt better enough to take the leap and become a dog family. What made you get Ray? You? Me! Yes. No, I wasn't doing that so that the answer would be me.

Yes, you were. You bought me some good slogan sweatshirts. We love the slogan sweatshirt. She's got me a great one called Decision Maker because a man turned up at Catherine's house and it wouldn't turn up. It sounds a bit sinister, but... They turned up.

It was the decorator. and the decorator said to you, when will the decision maker be home? Isn't that true? I said she's at school for two more hours, so... You better hurry up. She's a Tory.

She will call home office on us both. Shit. And you had to put on a sweatshirt, so why not go around with the tuition? But you didn't realize that Ray and Megan, look at them just gazing, a punning- They're behind the table.

I don't know if you could see it. They're so mad. I always call their relationship Frozen for dogs. It's like frozen for shih Tzu's isn't it? Look at them. They just stare at each other.

I know. It's so cute. So basically I interviewed Catherine for the podcast that I do for the times and I didn't... Walking the dog. Podcast, are you listening to it?

It's so wonderful. Yes, great point. And I'd already walked up to her and said in a rather tragic Alan Partridge way, can I be your friend? And then I was inspired by your life and I was inspired by Meg and I got Raymond and I just I'd sort of just you know

never committed to anything in my life but as soon as I saw him but you got him by accident in a way so you saw Meg and you thought oh little dog fine family no husband fine but um I have a girlfriend called Elizabeth her daughter Matilda is Violet's best friend they were born in the same day in the same hospital and we didn't know that for several years we figured it out backtracking so you and I have these, they have the same mother, these dogs from the same place in Romsey, the same family, the same mother, and we did it by accident. Yeah. And she, I mean, I don't know, they've got a different, it's the same mother, isn't it?

It's different dads. Yeah, different dads. I don't know, Ray's dad was, I think he was a bit of a no-gooder, if I'm honest. I think he was, I think he was a bit of a one-night stand. We all have dads, you're a bit bon vivant, you know. Yeah, this is true. Well, I certainly did. So you got Ray.

So I got Ray, and then I just, um. So tell me about Ray. Getting Ray, dog therapy. So Ray, yeah, he just kind of changed my life, really. And as soon as I got him, I just thought this is the best thing I've ever done. I didn't like it this years ago, because I, it was just so powerful. Just, I mean, literally this morning, I did the radio show this morning. I had to get up at half five.

What's happened? Well, he wasn't playing. Oh, he had her bone. Okay. Do you know what I love is that she wears the trousers? Look him. He's so hen-picked. Sorry.

I just, yeah. I mean, I woke up the same. morning, and he's just staring. Imagine that. Imagine waking up to that face, just staring at you, like a sort of crazy e-walk. It's amazing. So it really was the transition from, you know, after I'd lost my family, I used to wake up and honestly hit the snooze button. I would just think, I don't want to get up. I just, you know, again, I'm sure people have experienced that feeling of just depression and it's what it was. And then getting him was also, oh, right, I've got to feed him. I've got to look after myself. I can not feed myself and live in sweatpants. Sorry, Carl Lagofeld,

for the next couple of years. But, you know, I can't do that to him. So it forced me to get out the house. It forced me to physically have a walk, which sounds like a sort of naff thing that people say in women's magazines, have a walk, meets a people. It's very good. But yeah, no, it does. It clears your head, and I leave my phone. And so that's been good. But also, I think what I've really learned from dogs, and that is the sort of science of them, is just that they literally live in the moment. And because they do that, it really encourages you to do the same, you know. So I'll shout at him. I'll try

not to shout him because he's so lovely. But I... Look, he performs as well. Come on. Come on, we're talking about you. Look at me, Jean. But I realise that... Give him a kiss. Yes. But I realise that, you know,

I've learnt that from him. It's just that thing where he's... Dogs are a bit like that. They're kind of like, oh, no, she's... because I did a week. Oh, we're going outside. You know, they're a bit sort of ADHD, which I think is a great way to be. You know, they embrace every moment.

They don't live in the past. And actually, that was an interesting thing I discovered about grief as well, is that, you know, dogs, because I found myself typing into Google, do dogs mourn their owners, which was one of the weirder moments in my life? And I was like, Siri, do dogs? No, Emily. But, yeah, essentially they do, but they don't experience mourning like us. They see it as more like, they're just like, oh, they're going to come back.

Yeah. So, yeah, he's been, he's just totally transformed my life. And he brought, he's made me meet loads of interesting people. And he's what, he's just changed my life. Look, someone just sneezed. Ray doesn't like that. We don't allow sneezing in our house. He's on alert.

He wants to help. He's on alert. And you took Ray to the cemetery and introduced him to Rachel. Yeah, weird. But, I mean, I kind of loved doing it because it was so weird and so my family. And I sort of thought, I can't believe I'm bringing, I kind of think him as my saviour. He's my hero. He came and saved me.

And I thought, this is typical me or my family, that my hero isn't a typical rom-com. I haven't got Hugh Grant. I've got a weird E-Walk creature in a top shop Raffia bag that I'm hiding. And yeah, we went, I took him to see my sister. And he's called Raymond because my sister was called Rachel. So I thought it would be a nod to her without being... I interviewed Adam Hills and he said, oh yeah, it's really nice. It's nice, but they're being confrontational.

And I thought, yeah, he's got a point about that. So I introduced him and I honestly said, I said, oh, Ray, this is Ray. I hope you don't think it's weird that I named a dog off to you. I mean, she couldn't answer, so, you know. But yeah, it felt really special actually, taking him to meet my family. And I felt, you know, I just felt they would have been happy for me. And yeah, so it was lovely. They would be happy for you.

I really do believe that energy thing. You don't have to, but I believe that you're carrying all of them with you all the time. And you've ceased to be the sidekick. And you are now driving the bus of your family all around. And you have Ray. Do you want to say anything else before I ask these questions? No, I just wanted to thank everyone for coming here today. Yeah, thank you so much.

It's been really, you know, it's a challenging book to write. I'm not going to lie. And I thought I was just going to sit down and do a Carrie Bradshaw. Anyway, my family died. And then I got a dog. but I just couldn't and I spilt my guts a bit and it's very you know it's exposing and you feel vulnerable and I've had brilliant people who I'm afraid I know this is a number but I have to mention who's my editor of you know who's been amazing and sort of like a therapist really and my agent

cath and I think that's been really important that support women female support you see but yeah it's been it's been a tough slog but I feel so today being with all you guys here and just talking and being with one of my best friends I feel really happy and I I just feel, yeah, I'm just thrilled. So thank you all so much for coming. Can I show you the trip I do? Yeah, do you want me to play Lion King music. No, no, no, no, no, the circle of life.

Oh, you didn't like that. He's adorable. Okay, Catherine was actually going to get the Lion King music. Should we do questions? Yes, let's do questions. I'm so pleased for you, so proud of you. The book is amazing. I'm going to come and give you a hug.

It's very unprofessional. No, no, because they keep seeing one. Jimmy Carl doesn't do this. Oh. He doesn't do that. Okay, Catherine. He does. No, just kidding.

Jimmy has the best answer. Anytime anybody asks him, because you know what it's like men and women working together. I don't know if anybody bothers you about working with Frank. They'll go, funnily enough. Are you?

I love him, but you know. I'm never. So go on a vote. They say to Jimmy, are you romantically, are you sleeping with Rachel Riley? And he has the best answer. What does he say? Yeah, don't tell her, though.

Hilarious. I love him. The best thing Jimmy ever said to me is when I said I'd taken up horse riding. I was going to go through that thing again post-loss. I'm going to do everything. I'm going to cut my hair, do horse riding. And your friend's like, oh God, what is it now? Frank was like, are you still going to buy a house in deal?

I was like, yes. Oh, no, no, I'm a deal. I know, what was I doing? But I said to Jimmy, I'm doing horse riding. Yeah, that's great, because there's a where is it? I said, oh, and I told him where it was, which is in Enfield, near Enfield. He went, that's great spinal injuries unit up the road from there. Thanks for

watching my mellow, Carl. I think dealing with grief, I don't know, I mean, you're the expert after the box set, but hanging around with comedians and people who aren't afraid to ask you these very rude, bold-faced questions about what we've been through

and make jokes, really inappropriate jokes and bad taste. It does make it easier. I do think it does, and actually I quite like that, you know, I've had to say to Frank because Frank's that, you know, obviously, he always goes for the pun

But he's also someone who's very sensitive and he worries and he'll look at me and I'll say, it's okay, you can say what you want. It's fine. We can joke about it. You're going to read questions. I'm going to read a question. Grief evolves. It doesn't get better day by day. What impact is your grief having right now? Right now on this stage, whoever asks that? I would say grief does evolve and I think what's interesting about that question is you know that five stages of grief, which is the biggest bullshit. Sorry, Violet. I just think it's irresponsible. I think it's wrong. And, I really, it's one of the things I always say to people, you know, it's written in Victorian times or something. And, I mean, it was, it wasn't, it may as well have been. And I just think it's really important to remember it's, it's not linear. It's, I describe, it's like, it's waves. It's a tsunami, you know, and you just have bad days and good days. And today is a great day for the reasons I said earlier, I feel really happy, but I feel you will have bad days, you know, and it's like, there are all these metaphors that you hear about it. And I said, I didn't interview with the Sunday Times recently. And I said, I didn't interview with the Sunday Times as recently. And I was recently. And I said, and I said, I didn't interview with the Sunday Time as recently. And I was recently. And I I mentioned, someone described it as being like glitter, which is that sense that you clean it up and you'll just be sitting there and there's a little piece. It never quite, you can't get rid of it all. And the weirdest times it would happen. I'd be sitting there with the radio show a lot

and I'd suddenly start crying and they'd say, what is it? And I'd say, I don't know. Oh, yeah, I think I do know. So I would say, whoever said that, I think it does very much evolve. And yes, I feel great today. But I might not tomorrow, you know, And that's okay.

And it's a matter of accepting that and knowing that there will be another day. So yeah. I'm glad today is a good day. Are you ever going to try stand-up? No. No, I couldn't do it. That's your job.

I have a best friend who does it. You do it. You do that. It's full mate. Do you think I want to ask you about that, but with the stand-up thing, do you say no, don't do it? That's interesting.

Would you, do you think it's a hard? It's a hard job to do. No, I was joking then. I just said it because you'd be so good. No, I know you were joking. I'm being boring and being serious now in terms of do you think that it's like you're quite tough, I think. But you're actually like marshmallow underneath. Nuh.

You are. But do you think it's, because I think you, I don't think I'm as tough as you. Like some of the stuff that you have to deal with and I've seen you take on men and. Take on how many men have you seen me? As soon as I said that, I thought I'm playing my intro hands. I didn't know you were there. No, I've seen you. How are the people?

I've seen you stand up for yourself a lot, and I've found that really inspiring. Well, I've had some grief. I don't know how to write books, but I think I've read a lot of Native American literature, First Nations people, we see now. And the psychology of that was not to push grief away, but to invite it into your life when it happens. Obviously, you don't want it to happen. But when it's coming, just to invite grief into your life

and ask it what it has to teach you. And they say that people always come out of suffering better than they went in. So all the worst, like most shit parts of my life were bad at the time, but I'm very, very grateful for them now. And I wouldn't, you know, they have a. been as bad as yours, but I am tougher because of them. And someone has asked whether your grief and death changed your decision-making process. Did it change my decision-making process?

In terms of how I make decisions? I suppose that means, yeah, how you make decisions. Did it make you tough? Oh, yeah. Well, I think what it does, and again, I'm sure the people have experienced this, it certainly, I think I was incapable of making decisions before. So I think you do get gripped by that sense of, you know, for a number of reasons it's an insults. People aren't here.

That sense of time passing and being precious. And literally, I think that sense of, that experience of literally watching Peep Show with my sister on, you know, a week in January. And then three weeks later, her being dead. It was so odd to me that I think I'm, I think that does change you, you know. So I think I have much more of a sense of not wasting time, I suppose. It's a cliche, it's the Carpe Diem. And everyone goes through that, that mad phase. Well, you had a mad phase in the book.

I loved your few months of yes. I really did go a bit yes. And I need to know who that actor was. Oh, yes. Will I can tell you? Shall I tell you? Yeah. Will you tell the story?

And then I'll tell you what it is quickly. Well, she took on several men. And no. It wasn't. Instead of being. Still available, by that. bit of a wallflower, Emily would just say, yes, you want to go to a dinner party? Yes, you want to fly to wherever it was con. Yes, we'll go do this, we'll do that. And then there was a very

handsome, famous actor at one of these parties, I think in the south of France, who invited you out onto a balcony because you just had this aura of like, yes, this new confidence. I think it's because I had cigarettes, actually. But no, I did. It was, you know what it was, that encounter with him? And I say encounter, because nothing happened like that. I wish it had. But it was, more just that sense that I'd been feeling, I described myself as kind of like, you know, I felt like the raven at a picnic. Everyone's like, oh, and then like, wham. I was like, the Monty Python foot ruining everything. It was like, oh, here comes old griefy McGrief face. So that to me, it was the first time I went out and he didn't know my backstory. It was his young, hot actor,

and he was just chatting to me. And I thought, oh, this is really nice. And everyone was kind of looking at me like, why is he chatting to that woman who's in her 40s and he should be with us? We're 22. What's he chatting with her? And I was. I was like, well, sorry. Because you're normal. You're ordinary. Do you believe in signs, or do you look for signs that Rachel and your parents are still looking out for you? Oh, that's so lovely, whoever wrote that.

I don't believe, you know, sometimes people say, oh, I say that. Do you know I had a weird thing the other night? This is ridiculous. But again, I'm going to share it with you. I saw a spider. And my sister's favorite book was Charlotte's Web. When we were kids, she would read it to me. And then it really, I'd put that in the dedication at the beginning because...

Yeah, oh, listen, that's when I was crying. And then the book is not always sad. The book is so funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, it's sad for a time. And then funny again, but this dedication, yeah, I mean, I was gone. Someone has asked, do you think now that you have Ray, you won't be looking for another man? Yes, people have said that. They're like, oh, have you got a boyfriend subsidia? In fact, I was interviewed by the Times and she asked me that.

And I said, no, he's a dog. Didn't go well. I think it's a Lindsay DePaul attitude. They're a luxury. You know, they're an expensive luxury. Maybe we'll have one. Maybe we won't. Maybe you have one.

Maybe you don't. But it's certainly not a necessity to live your life. You bought your house, Emily, and no man can tell you what to do in it. I feel like men are just so complicated, like a whip it. You know, just so complicated. The long walks on the beach.

to all the lovely men here. You're not right with me. But why they like... The walks on the beach are lovely, but it's a lot of training involved to get there. Yeah, but that's why we don't have big dogs. You know, my theory is. People say to me and Catherine,

oh, we have those little dogs. I'm like, because I've seen Labrador's poos, you may as well have Greg Davis pooing. It's like, it's massive. They're huge. They lie on your bed, and it's like having a big man, you know, these little things. But, you know, Ray is so special.

I mean, look at him. He is the right dog. for you. Look at him. And... Look at that, guys. If it's meant to be, it'll happen, and there are some wonderful men,

thank you to all the men who've come here. Thank you. All the men I've taken on and will take on. Okay, Emily, big fan. Yeah. I think we could be friends. What's weird to ask the one. You.

That's fan mail. Just one. Okay, there are two minutes left. Annie runs a tight ship. A lot can happen in that. Emily, you said you changed the way you speak, depending on the type of people you're with, have you ever said the wrong thing to someone because of this?

Because of the way I speak. Oh, yes. Have you ever misread the group? Oh, yes, yes, yes, I know exactly what you mean. Oh, yeah, I'm doing that all the time. I'm always miss speaking and I'm always coming out of... Well, I think, I suppose you mean in the sense of saying, being the wrong type of person in the wrong situation, yeah.

I think I often... I sometimes do with Frank on the radio show because I just get so used to talking to him in a certain way, and he refers to himself as... you know, he has this thing, he calls himself a bit of a git. Because someone wrote into the show and said, let's face it, Frank, you are a bit of a git. And you know what I like about Frank?

He went, yeah, I am actually, aren't I? I really accept that. But I sort of forget that you can't talk to other people like that. So I might say to my agent, for example, I say, that's a stupid idea, you're being an idiot. And then I think, oh, it's not Frank. You can't say that. So, yeah, I'm guilty of Gittishness myself.

You're not. You're such a wonderful person, really transformative in my life. And I do worry sometimes about my own mortality and who would guide my child. So do I look how gorgeous you are. That's, you know. One of my daughters, I mean, well, cats out of the bag. My sister.

I love it if you were pretending. 90. Yeah. One of my 45-year-old daughters. No, they just couldn't do it for a variety of reasons. And that is something very comforting that I got from this. I thought, if anything should happen to me in three weeks, then I'm so grateful that you're in my daughter's life,

and she would have someone. I mean, I know you don't want to write this all again, but if you just would, and you're going to love the book so much. You're just, I'm so happy for, I mean, the grief is bad, but the lessons that it has taught you, thank you for sharing them with us all. I want to say one thing before we go.

I have to about you. No, no, no, don't, she always does this. It's totally fake. I'm a bit of a gear. You did something, but this is important, it's not too gushing. It was just something that I wanted to share with everyone, which was that I learned something from you, but we're going to talk about that.

I learned something from you, which was about opening up, because I don't know if you remember, you know, this was in the summer, wasn't it? And I was going through a bad period, I think. I'd written a book, all memories had come back, I was a bit low, and my idea, I went, old me and I hid away and I was embarrassed and I felt ashamed because I thought I want to turn up and be glossy and have makeup and wear a cool t-shirt with my dog on it and I didn't feel like that

I was a bit sweat, pants and depression and I hid away from you and then I realized you started to think it was something you'd done and I remember you sent me a text going you know is everything okay gal and it was like and then I just remember I told you I just said it was the first time I'd ever done that I sent you a text and I said no I'm not okay I'm really down and I came over and I just burst into tears and I thought I can't cry in front of Catherine just like this cool stand up and she's going to be like, oh my God. But, you know, sorry, it was an impression. But you were so sweet, and I never forgot that, and you just really, you made me feel a lot

better, and you just put your arm around me in, you told me about a friend of yours, and you were just lovely, and yeah, that taught me a lot that you should just tell friends, and I think everyone here who has that, it's just, if you go through a bad time, just tell people that, people are really nice, you know, this is what I was ever, people are lovely. I thought they were all souls, but they're lovely. So yeah. Yes, tell people how you're feeling. And that especially, you know, I said I didn't want any men in my life earlier.

That especially goes for men. Tell people about your feelings. Everybody tell people and tell people about everybody died, so I got a dog. Let's hear it again. Thank you for being here. Emily Dean.