Walking The Dog with Emily Dean - Zoe Lyons

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

This week Emily chatted to Zoe Lyons and her dog, Groucho. They spoke about Zoe’s childhood and the things that made her feel different to her peers, her unusual start to her showbiz career, and her new BBC quiz show, Lightning. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

There's always a bit in a show. Every night you come to it, you go, oh God, it's this bit. I really need to rewrite this bit because it's awful. And then you just, you finish the show and you forget to rewrite it. And then the next night you're like, oh God, it's this bit again. This week on Walking the Dog, I chatted to comedian Zoe Lyons and had dog Groucho from their home in Brighton. Zoe is a brilliant stand-up, known for her TV appearances on Mock the Wee, Libert the Apollo and QI, and radio stints on the news quiz, just a minute, and the now show.

And she's an absolute joy to chat to. We talked about her childhood, where she moved around a lot, which helped her hone the knack of winning a room as a comic later on, and the things that made her feel different to her peers, having alopecia and then realising she was gay, and how that feeling of otherness became something she was able to channel into performing. We also discussed her fabulously unusual star in showbiz as a contestant on the reality show Survivor,

which gave her the confidence to give confidence, a try and I'm frankly delighted that she did. I think you'll adore Zoe. She's just a very special blend of funny bones and kind bones and Groucho seems like an absolute star. Oh okay, Ray, not as big a star as you? Yes, I've seen the contract. I know you get mentioned in the intro. Can I just go on with it? If you want to see more Zoe, do check out the brilliant BBC Quiz Show Lightning that she presents currently, which is on BBC Eye Player. You can also find out more about her upcoming projects via zoeylions.com.uk or on Twitter at Zoe Lyons. I'll stop waffling now and hand over to the woman herself.

Here's Zoe and Groucho and Ray. There we go. How do you think he'll get on with Ray, Zoe? I'm going to say Groucho has some, should we say, issues when it comes to being social. He's an older gentleman. and therefore harbours some, I would say, fairly bigoted views about certain people and other dogs. And we've had issues in the past.

What breed is Ray? And what country is he from? I like that when you ask that, Groucho barked is a... I know, yeah. As if to say you've learnt, Mommy, these are the questions we need to ask. Yes, yes, yeah. Ray is, well, he's originally from the Chinese imperial royal family. We could have issues.

Groucho was born behind a bin, and if he was in the pub, he'd wear jeans up to his first nipples, be reading the racing post and be making some really, really derogatory comments about Brexit. So I don't think they're going to be friends. Oh, do you know, I hadn't even started yet, And already this might be my favourite podcast I've ever done. Zoe, I'm so thrilled and delighted that you can join us today. Oh, it's pleasure.

This is walking the dog. And normally we would actually be walking the dog. But the reason we're not is because, obviously, you're in Brighton and I'm in London. But I've really, really, I've heard about Groucher, your dog. And obviously, I know about you. Yeah. I like that you mentioned him first. Obviously, you're a dog owner.

You understand that. Yeah, he comes first. Has he got everything? Has he all settled? Has he got treats? Everything he needs? We've had, we've probably had like one and a quarter schmackos already. So that's enough because I'll be bagging it later.

So, yes, being an older dog, he has a slightly delicate stomach. Yeah, Ray's very picky about his food, but then, you know, what are you going to do, Chinese Imperial Royal Family? Yeah. You can't have duck every night, can you? I don't like it. It's gone on class war between our dogs. I don't like it, Zoe. Well, I've got so much to talk to you about, but we need to obviously ask about Groucho first. Sure. Because will you introduce me to your dog, Zoe? Yes.

Could I introduce you properly? I need to do the posh bit when I say, I'm very excited because I've got a fabulous comedian and presenter, Zoe Lyons, and her dog, Groucho. Will you please introduce me to your dog, Groucho? This is Groucho, or Mr. Groucho Barks to give him his full title. He is a 14-year-old Jack Russell Cross thing. We got him as a puppy from Shoreham Dogs Home.

We went in looking for a dog and they'd had a glut of puppies. I think that's the right expression and got rid of their entire puppy list in one go. And he was a spare puppy. puppy. And yeah, as we were looking around at a bunch of sort of wheelchair-bound greyhounds and staffageable terriers with issues. I've dated some men who could be described as staffageable terriers with issues. Yes, that's, you know. We were just about to leave and one of the women came up to us with just went, would you be interested in a puppy?

I mean, of course I'd be interested in the puppy. Why have we been dragged around this lot? So she said, we've got a puppy. It'll be available in a few weeks. We went, what is it? We don't really know his mum was a bit promiscuous. Back around the back of a bin. It was made behind a skit.

We have no idea what it'll be. And it turned out to be a little wide-haired cross-chat Russell. He was the runt of the litter. of the litter, and I also learnt very early on, you don't say rumpt of the litter in front of people at a dog's home. You say the smallest of the litter. I wish someone had told my parents that about me. He was actually quite an ugly puppy. He's so cute now. Come here, Gatch, let me see a cute face. He was an ugly puppy. He sort of looked like a sort of slightly hairy potato, very short legs. His siblings were much better looking. There were sort of black

and white, proper-looking Jack Russell's. And he was this little ginger throwback. And they all had quite sort of well-proportioned limbs and faces. And he just didn't. But he's grown into quite a handsome fella. Well, I was attracted to Ray because he was the run to the litter, as they would have said in the 70s or whatever. Yeah.

You're definitely drawn to dogs, aren't you? Do you drawn to the one that's meant to be for you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you seem like a really, you seem like really devoted to him. Oh, yeah. I mean, my dog, I, my dog, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a terrier. So terriers have this incredible personality and they are stubborn and they are alpha and they are irritating and they do their own thing. but they are massively full of personality

and I love him for that he's a bit of an ass he really is he is a bit of an ass like he's not an easy dog he's not and he you know if I ever got around to anybody else's house he's got a dog he's straight in the door

straight in that dog's bed with all of that dog's toys and just lies there like what you do about it yeah come on I'll cut you I mean, he's an idiot. He's a, yeah, he is the sort of, you'd meet him down the pub, he'd be able to sell you anything for 20 quid. He's that sort of a dog. I love him for it.

Ray would be reporting him to the police, to the authorities. Ray's the horrible sort of like grass, cowardly grass. It's incredible how strong their personalities are, though, and how different they are. Groucho's best friend, Alfie, is a person. Paterdale Terrier. And he's such a different character. He would definitely wear a flowery blouse

and write sort of love poetry from a rat-hand chair somewhere in the sun because of his weak lungs. Whereas I'm already sensing that Groucher would be more with a sort of biker jacket maybe. Yeah. It very, very stone-washed jeans, white trainers. And sports direct bag.

Yeah, sports direct bag, reading the racing post. That would be him. And smoking rollies. Yeah. With these, he'd have a roly between his two remaining teeth. Oh. Oh, hi, groucho. Hello.

Hi. Hey, way. Hi. Oh, look. Don't say anything inappropriate, Croucho. I know what you're like. What's that? that? Oh, they're letting anything in these days, I don't they? Look that! It's bad enough, living

bright with all them French bloody terriers all over the place. Bloody how, you can't move for them now. Oh dear. I need to go back to your childhood, Zoe, because I'm interested to know, did you have dogs and pets when you were growing up? Yes, yes. Our first dog, when I grew up in Ireland, and we had a dog from I had him from about I guess I must have been about five and he was an Irish wolfhound and he was beautiful and he was massive he was at the time the second biggest dog in Ireland which is which is quite a thing isn't it it's almost more notable than being the biggest dog in Ireland he was an Irish bull found but it was a massive Irish wall found

And I used to ride him like a pony. Did you have siblings? I've got a younger brother. Yeah, Finton, yeah. Were your mum and dad sort of big characters? My mum is quite a character. She's a strong northern lady. My father, Irish, and I would say quite eccentric,

which is sort of got more concentrated as he gets older, perhaps, as the sort of gravy thickens. He now lives in France. My mum lives around the corner from me here in Hove. Oh, does he? Yeah. So my family, what were they like? It certainly wasn't Bohemian. It certainly wasn't that. I'd say it was fairly sort of beige, middle-classish, suburban. Yes. We weren't particularly arty family. We weren't a particularly,

particularly political family. My parents divorced when I was about 10. So then it was a divided family, then it was quite different. It was a different setup. My dad was a chemical engineer, who worked in the oil business. I worked for various oil companies, from Phillips Petroleum to Norwegian companies.

He lived in Norway for a while. He was often out on rigs, that sort of thing. He's quite academic my dad. Yeah, chemistry and that sort of thing. Chemistry and physics is his sort of main thing. My mum worked in various jobs. She was an auxiliary nurse for a while. She did a lot of admin.

She did a lot of secretarial stuff. Yeah, she worked night shifts in a cottage hospital. When we lived in Epson, we moved from Ireland to Epsom, Epsom, so she worked there for a while. So she's a hardworking lady. I know that you moved around a lot as a kid. You had quite a peripatetic childhood and I had one like that. And well, you moved everywhere, Zerri didn't you? Where didn't you live? Well, I was born in Wales, then we moved to Ireland and then we moved to Surrey and then we moved to Glasgow and then I went to university in York and then eventually I ended up in London. So yeah. Do you think that has an effect on you when you

move around a lot as a kid? Oh, completely. Yes, totally. Yes, I mean, it has definite pros and cons. I think the pros outweigh the cons. I mean, my issue was my accent was always one country behind where I was. So, you know, when I moved from Ireland to England, I had an Irish accent. When I moved from England to Scotland, I had an English accent, you know. So I was always trying to play catch-up with my accents. Now I have a very very... non-descript accent which I think most we would describe as slightly northern despite the fact that I've never properly lived there it's just sort of I guess it's just found the the mean geographical point of where of all the places I've lived and it's gone it's roughly run corn so that's

what it's done because I had a very strong Irish accent when I was a kid and then I sort of taught like that when I was in Epsom and then it sort of got blended out in Glasgow and now it's ended up here so but I yes I think there are definite advantages to moving around a lot as a kid. I think it just gives you a better world view. I guess I realized I could sort of live anywhere then. If you've had that sort of movement when you're a child, you're less terrified of leaving.

I mean, people talk about living, you know, next door to their siblings and their aunties and their cousins and they're all over the... And I'm like, oh, God, that fills with horror. And going to the same school and then they're working with the same people that you went to school with. And that, to me, just sounds horrific. that would feel very insular. I always think one thing that I think it gives you,

just from my personal experience, is that it means it gives you a slight edge in terms of you're used to going into new environments and having to sort of catch up quickly. I guess we're in a room. Yes, yes. And particularly doing stand-up, going into different rooms all of the time,

you are having to, you know, ingratiate yourself on a room full of strangers. And I think having that broader geographical view really helps. And also, I used to sort of adjust my accent slightly as well, depending on which gig I was at. So if I went to, if I was gig in Manchester, I would put on a slightly more northern accent so that immediately they would feel like I was a little bit more like then. And then in London, I just sort of, you know, knock that off a bit and get a bit more London. So it's, I can do. Yeah. It's that desperate needy thing, isn't it? Like me, like me, like me, like me, like me, like me, like me.

Did you go to a convent in Ireland? Or was it... What was that like? Yeah, I was taught by nuns. Yeah. They were all right, actually. I went back there not so long ago. I did a little radio show and went back to the school that I'd gone to. All the nuns have gone. Yes, I think buried like cats in the back garden. They've all been replaced. It's all. They've all, yeah, they've all gone. There were no, there are no numbs teaching there now at all.

And I don't think none's teach at all in Ireland now. And I mean, they have a strong look, shall we say. They've gone for a strong look. And for a six-year-old child, seeing a swirling habit coming down the corridor towards you at speed, feed. It's a, yeah, you go, well done, that's a, it's a good look you got going on there. It's quite intimidating for a child. We had to learn Irish at school. We all had to learn Irish. And the other thing I tell people, people don't ever believe me is in every classroom,

there was a little intercom and the head nun would sit in her office and read the Angeles, or the Rosemary, the Rosemary, the Rosary from her office over this. over a loudspeaker through the tannoy system and they would all repeat the rosary in our class. It's very much like, something like 1984 for Catholics. Were you one of those kids at school? Like, what would your report say? Was it Zoe distracts people? No.

Zoe's loud. No. No, Zoe was a wallflower. Zoe really was a wallflower. Zoe could try harder. A reading's not really. really up to par. And what would I have excelled at? Quite punctual. People always assume because of what you do for a living that you were the class clown. And I just really, really wasn't.

I just totally wasn't. I was the complete opposite. I didn't have enough confidence to be the class clown. In fact, I was the reverse probably. I was quite well behaved. I was quite well behaved. think because when I went to secondary school, I'd gone from Epsom, like a middle school, up to Glasgow into a secondary school, which was, you know, so much bigger and intimidating. And I would think frightening for me. And I had an English accent. And so you sort of stuck out. So you just sort of kept your head down.

And I still got picked on even though I kept my head down. down. It wasn't a particularly happy time. I didn't want to move to Scotland. My stepfather got transferred with his job. So we ended up leaving where we were living and going to Glasgow. I had terrible alopecia at the time. So I was the only kid at school with a comb over. So it was a hard time. Yeah. That must have been really tough, Zoe, as a kid. God, I can imagine. Yeah, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. You just sort of, Yes, there's always that feeling of just being slightly uncomfortable, which actually has stood me in good stead later in life as a comedian

because you're always slightly uncomfortable. So I know what that feeling is. Whenever I interview people for this podcast, it is absolutely the one thing that links everyone is there is a sense of otherness or not being quite like the others, not fitting in. And it's something that oddly becomes an advantage, I think, when you're a performer. Yes, I think you can turn it to your advantage.

Definitely, you can. And it's nice because you can turn around and say, screw you. Yeah, screw you. Yeah, there is a strength in it. And I think, you know, I never wanted to be part of the crowd either. Well, it's a weird thing. When you're very young, you sort of do because it's easier. You know, when you're 10, 11, 12, that is easier to be part of the crowd.

And then as you get older, you desperately try and move away from being part of the crowd. I mean, yes, so I had a different accent. I had a comb over. And then I was beginning to realise I was probably gay as well. So it really didn't really fit into the norm of a 12-year-old, you know, back in 1983. Oh, God. It's awful, awful. When you think back to it, you know,

Yeah, the way people referred to gay people, the way, yeah, the way you were made to feel. Not me because I obviously hadn't come out at that age, but I could see what my future could potentially be like, and it didn't look brilliant, you know. Yeah. And was it something you were able to kind of discuss with people openly? Did that just come with time, I suppose, like chatting to your folks about it and just feeling more comfortable with it yourself? Much later, much later. But I think I was probably about 12

and I began to realize that. It's that moment. It's a point in life, isn't it, when you know, you realize there are members of the opposite sex and attraction and all of those things. And you're suddenly going, oh, this doesn't fit the template?

Oh, God. You know, yeah, desperately didn't want to be gay. Desperately didn't want to be gay. That was, you know, it was all. I wanted hair, I wanted my hair back. And to like boys. Neither of those two things. Yeah.

Did everyone think of you as someone who would make them laugh? I knew I could make people laugh. Yes, I did. I was aware of that. But again, it wasn't the kids in the classroom. It wasn't the kids in the classroom. I didn't have the confidence to do to kids in the classroom. Because I, like I say, I was sort of a wallflower.

But when I was late in primary school, I used to stand outside primary school, and parents would gather, you know, to have a little chit-chat and drop their kids off. And I would hold court with the parents. I felt more at home doing that. And I'd tell stories, they'd make them laugh. And I used to love that every morning. My audience were, you know, more mature than my own peers, yes. So I knew I could make them laugh.

And the thing is I knew I could make it. adults laugh. So that's quite a powerful thing. Because of course, you know, through age and experience, they have, they have witnessed more comedy, therefore, are more discerning. And if you've presented something that they are laughing at, it's, it's hit the mark. It's hit the grade. Yeah. Whereas your friends are like, you know, poo bummed it. That's it. At that point when you were growing up, where there are the comics that you, this would be in the 80s, I guess, Yes, yeah. That you would look at and think they're funny or that you were kind of inspired by.

Oh, it was definitely, I think it was Billy Connolly as I was growing up. You know, he'd bring out a video every Christmas and at Christmas time we'd sit around and watch the video. And he just an amazing performer and just a brilliant storytelling and use of words and would have all of us cracking up life. would all sit around you know you know moms and dads and aunty and uncles and nephews and nieces crying laughing crying laughing um and also you know because when we were kids it was um it was very much scheduled laughter wasn't it wasn't just watch what you wanted when you wanted it was absolutely scheduled the entire country was laughing at 8 p.m on a saturday night watching bbc2 that was it there was no other option so yeah it's true we will be

laughing from eight. We will all be laughing as a nation. We will sit down as a nation on our corduroy sofas. Smoking with children in the room. Smoking with children in the house. Kids will be smoking, but only silk cut lights. Yeah, Muppet Show. That was another one we used to watch with the family. I used to bloody love the Muppet show. A Sunday night we'd watch the Muppet Show. Oh, that would really make us laugh. Really make us laugh. I mean, the Swedish chef was always a favourite. And Beaker, because they had, sorry, Croucher's going off in the corner.

Sorry, what is it, dog? He wants out the door. Is he allowed to leave the podcast? Is he? Okay, you've got permission to leave the podcast, Groucher. It's not Hotel California. You can check out whenever you want. Oh, look at that.

Oh, mate, there's nothing out there. And you'll be right back in in two minutes. So this will be irritating. Go on. Off you pop. Tell me about, you went to York University, didn't you? And you did psychology. Yes.

What was that like? What was a psychology degree like? I think that sounds fascinating. I mean, you'd think it would be, wouldn't you? You'd think it would be. That's why I chose it. It seemed like there was enough mixture of sort of words and numbers. It wasn't too heavy on the words.

it wasn't too heavy on the numbers. There were some pictures and I thought to be quite interesting. It was quite dull. You know, lots of experiments about sticking pigeons in mazes and then blindfolding them and then discovering that they're depressed. It wasn't as involved as I thought it was going to be. Also, I wasn't as attentive as perhaps I should have been. I am very much enjoyed, should we say the extracurricular activities of being at university. I just about managed to scrape a two two because I was mostly larking about in the Amgram, society, the York University Students Amateur Dramatic Society, or USADS, as we were called. Or the other things I was doing, I was off parachuting or pot hole in or all sorts of stuff.

So yeah, and York was a funny place to go because it, again, so I went from a school I wasn't happy at to a university I ended up not being particularly happy at. It was a real odd mix at York. It was a lot of Oxbridge rejects, which I wasn't expecting. I just wasn't expecting. And I was in halls of residence, Wentworth College, and for some reason I got a shared room. A shared room. It was for the first year of university, I had to share a room with a stranger.

and I thought, you know, it really got to me, really, really, because we were completely different. When I got there, I thought, you know, it might be a friend early on. It might work out. And I opened the door and she'd already put up a poster of a kitten with the words Jesus loves me underneath it. And I thought, this isn't going to work out, is it? This is not going to work out?

And her parents were there and she was calling them Mummy and Daddy. And I was like, this is going to be the longest. longest year of my life. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty bad. It was pretty bad. Because it's so true, it's like you have this idea of college and you think, oh, it's all these like-minded people.

I know. I should have gone to Manchester or Leeds. I used to get on the train and got to Manchester or Leeds to go and see bands and stuff. York, nobody went there because it's, you know, York's pretty, but the university, it's like a sort of dystopian NCP car parks. stood in a, you know, just fog, fog and geese. That's all it was. It was just covered in fog and goose shit.

And I hated it. I absolutely hated it. It was always about minus one. You know, and when you're a student, you haven't got any central heating. And yeah, it was bleak, bleak. And I was still sort of coming to terms, I was still coming to terms of my sexuality there.

And I fell in love with a woman who treated me like shit. So I was just bleak, fog, goose shit and despair. It was just awful. Now I think about it. Oh, and dungarees. There was a lot of dungarees, a lot of dungarees. Yeah. And were you quite, so at that point, yeah, you were sort of dating women and but. No, no, I was trying to. I was desperately trying to. None of them wanted me. They had a sort of, it would have been called, it was gay and lesbian at that point, society, you know, at the university you went along to. And there was one bloke and a cravat and a girl in a bowl of hat and you were like, oh God, this is never going to work. This is just awful.

This is, oh no. Is this it? This is not rich pickings. So it was disastrous. Yeah, disastrous. Oh God, it was miserable now, I think about it. Utterly, utterly miserable. But I did make good friends at university.

I made very good friends and some of them I still have. I did, and we did have some good parties. And it was this massive old house. The wind howled through it like nothing else. There were two front rooms that were huge and had nothing in it except a fruit machine. We'd have really big parties. Do you know why I chose your university? They had a very, very pretty prospectus the year I went. Pitches of daffodils on the front. And I literally caught my eye. And a beautiful minster, I presume.

Yes, and Betty's tea room and I like an etl's cake. But I don't think that that is really not enough to base where you're going to spend three years of your life. I know that now. You can't base it on a daffodil and a knuckles cake, but I sort of did. Yeah. You ended up going to drama school. Yes. Was that shortly after you graduated or? Gosh, it would have been a couple of years after I graduated.

I went home to Glasgow. I worked in a TGI Fridays in the city centre for a while. Oh yeah. I was a cocktail bartender. You should do all the flare. Very good at throwing the bottles, less good at catch. them several incidents I wouldn't get away with it now and the insurance wouldn't cover me now so I did that for a few years and then I moved to London

and I went to the poor school in Kings Cross which was a drama school design so that you could study in the evenings and at weekends really good drama school isn't it what it was it was I mean the head of the school was a camera character, shall we say? Chekhov, copies of Chekhov will use as missiles. And it was quite interesting, you know, I mean, at drama school, they do break you down so that they can put you back together again. And I think a lot of people were broken down and pieces went missing during that process at that school.

So, and I was fairly early on, I'd have been about 26 when I graduated from there. I realized that I probably wasn't going to be an actress. after all, because she was so dependent on people giving you roles. But I did tend to play the club footed maid or, you know, the slightly awkward sister. So I was like, it's cameo roles and it's comedy cameo roles. That's my future. Let's go for that. So yes, it was after that.

It was a couple of years after that, actually, I started thinking, well, that stand up. I'll do stand-up. You wanted to perform, essentially. That was in you. And you just, at that point, we can't gloss over this, though, because I am obsessed by Survivor. Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, really.

You were on Survivor, which was one of the, the UK's first sort of big reality shows around the time of Big Brother, wasn't it? Yes, yes, it was, yeah. So I was working in a restaurant in London, this is before I started doing stand-up. I'd finished drama school. It was becoming pretty obvious

that I wasn't going to get many roles. And I was bored one day at my waitressing job and I saw it was an advert in The Guardian for Survivor. An American friend of mine had told me about the American series. That was how I knew about it. She said, we'd be watching the show Survivor, you know.

And I saw it and I went, I bet I can get on that. It was honestly, it was as clear as that. my brain went, I bet if you've got an interview, you could get on that. So I said, I sent off an application and I sent up a couple of little things in it that I thought they might pick up on this, they might pick up on that. Sure enough, I got an interview, got an interview, an audition. And I got chosen. And yeah, before I knew it was on a plane out to Borneo going, well, that went a bit farther.

Oh, that. Oh, dear. That's, yeah. Did they test like your fitness levels or anything? Well, they asked. They asked and I lied. They didn't really put me on a treadmill really. And they just went, how fit here? It went, oh, you know, you know, for a, well, was I at the time was it? About 20, 29. So, oh, pretty fit. Really wasn't fit. I nearly died in the first five minutes of filming. Because I'm incredibly cack-handed. I've got. no balance whatsoever. And we had to jump off a big boat and then get on a life raft and paddle ashore to the island, right? I went to jump off the big boat, get trapped between the life raft and the big boat by my neck. I was like, I'm literally going to die in the first

five minutes of this show. I spent a lot of time nearly being sick because of the exertion. Yeah. You did quite well though, didn't you? I did. I did do quite well because I brought a third or fourth out of like a fourth. No, I was about fifth, about fifth or six. There was about 14 of it. I got down to the last six. Why do you think you did well? Because surface, charming,

next dermis level, very observant and can be, and very aware. So that played in my sense. favour. Third thing was I became incredibly good at spearing fish and that's a skill. That's a skill that they need on the island when you're starving. We got given a, we got given a mask, a snorkel, fins and a spear and a meat was brilliant. Immediately all the bloats went, right, let's go get some, you'll get some fish and then crap at it. They were crap at it. And I just, oh, the other reason I did well, very, very, very manageable

ego. If you, I'm always fascinated by people's ego and the way they prevent it. I genuinely think the strongest position you have is lying face down on the floor. So little can get you. You can still have a very strong ego but be faced down on a floor. I'm fascinated by people who can't contain their own egos and must stand upright and arms out in front of of everybody go, you are a massive target now, whereas I'm face down on the floor. And it's, it's, you can play small ego, but have quite a big one. And that works in your face. So you just let people hang themselves.

You just, you know, people are so in those sort of situations. You know what this is like. You get it a lot of media situations when you get a lot of egos together in a room. Immediately there are those that really want to stamp their impression on everybody else from the outstart, from the start. They're like that, bum, bomb, I'm this. I'm da, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was seeing it was an enormous weakness. It's like standing too close to the edge on a train platform.

You stand at the back and you can see which doors the quiet is. Don't go to the front, you're an idiot. So it was the same on this show. It was just lie on the floor, wait for everybody else to kill themselves with their own massive egos, trying to make an impression on television, and then just crawl to the finish line. That's what you do. It makes total sense. But get a skill along the way and my skill was,

was steering fish. Nobody turned to the women and went, anybody good at holding their breath and swimming underwater, which I was very, very, very good at. I could hold my breath for maybe two minutes, but I didn't tell them that, I just let them all fail. Then I went, could I have a go? Maybe I could have a go, went in, stingray, there you go, in things.

Any situation in my life where there's been some sort of confrontation, or not physical confrontation, not physical confrontation or issue or I've always let your opponent hang themselves. You know, if their ego is big enough, they will eventually ship over it. How are you at confrontation? If you have to have a difficult conversation with someone, how do you deal with that? I'm getting better at that and I'm nearly 50 and it's taken a while. Yeah.

And I'm only just getting to learn how to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's born out of the fact that I was brought up in a household where we weren't encouraged to be confrontational. So you learn to be quiet. And yeah, I'm only just learning how to do it properly. Yeah, it's difficult. It's really tricky. It's a very difficult skill. Yeah, you either go over the top, punt somebody and then cry. You just described last Thursday,

I need to ask you about your comedy career because it feels like it happened relatively swiftly in some ways but I don't know if it felt like that for you and how did being on Survivor help in any way or with your confidence maybe or? With confidence, yes, it did because I realised I was quite funny on that show and they edited me quite kindly and I knew I gave them sort of good moments.

I was aware of that and I was quite sort of camera aware, you know, aside. So it did give me confidence, but I was also aware enough to know that I did not want to be associated with that show when I started doing stand-up because that was a one-off thing that would die. And if I did want a serious career, it had to be out with that. out with that. And so I left it a couple of years. I left it two years. And I used to get the odd person going, oh, weren't you on Survivor? But that was it. That was all I had. Because this, it was also pre sort of Twitter and Instagram and everything. So I managed to go under the radar with it quite easily. But yes, when I when I did start doing this down, it took off quite quickly.

I mean, I knew I could be funny, but I really, I had to learn how to write jokes and have to write a set, watching people listening, you know, learning, yeah, learning. Yeah, I don't mean I nickler material. I mean, I just watched what they did and sort of go, oh, okay, you can make it more intricate, or you can make it this, you can make it that. I didn't really have a clue about the mechanics of it at all, at all. I just knew I could make people laugh. My first gig was basically, I got away with it because of smoke and mirrors and, you know,

enthusiasm. But that will only carry you so far. And eventually you will get found out so you need to have more bulletproof material. You need to find out what it is that you do. Does that take a while for that to evolve? Yes. Yes. And I think the people please are in me as well

still censors myself to a point. That happens. Yeah. I said there's a real interesting feeling on stage when you say something that feels really true to you that's really funny and it lands and it's like the most satisfying clunk it's really satisfying and not all material has that effect some of it you're like this bit shit but nobody's noticed I keep doing it bit in a show, always a bit. Every night you come to it, you go, oh God, it's this bit.

I really need to rewrite this bit because it's awful. And then you just finish the show and you forget to rewrite it. And then the next night you're like, oh God, it's this bit again. Who's going to rewrite this shit? It's like, oh, it's me. I've got to rewrite it. When you get a routine that really resonates and it's funny, and as a truth to it, that's a lovely clunk. It's a really nice clunk in your system. Yeah. Do you think when you look at men, male comics,

what I'm always aware of is not always, but generally there's an absence of self-doubt and that's to do with conditioning, isn't it? That's from a young age. It's sort of that reinforcement of with men. It's what do you do, whereas women, it's focused on what do you look like. And it does.

It starts in the pram and they say, what a pretty baby, you know. It's women learning not to be passive, I suppose. And was that something, again, you had to learn that to sell yourself and to be unafraid? Or do you feel you had that anyway? No, I didn't have it.

I'm not particularly ballsy for want of a better expression. I'm not, I, when I started doing stand, quite sensitive, you know somebody shouted something out I wouldn't have any sharp comebacks with like that's an awful thing to say why would you possibly say that you know which is not naturally comedic like oh I've got to go away and think about that and carry that with me like a

bad smell for days um why would you say that wasn't my tits got anything to do with this I've had to learn to be a bit braver, yeah, a bit bolder. Yeah, really upset me. You know, I'm probably in the worst profession. I mean, I don't like late nights and I don't like confrontation. So I'm really not cut out for this. I'm really, really not cut out for this. I should be a farmer.

I like to get up early. I like to do a manual job and then go to bed tired. but I'm pulling against myself the whole time. So yes, I've had to... It's really interesting. If you're a strong woman on stage, you're scary. That's what I've been told. Somebody wants said to be, I wanted to come up to you and say hello,

but you seem so confident and scary. And I was like, if you're strong on stage as a guy, you're just a confident man. That's all you are. Well, it's the same thing that if you're a woman and you're with men and you're talking, if you speak, sometimes the perception is that you're interrupting when actually what you're doing is talking. That's it, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. You appear a lot on sort of, you know, mock the week and QI and live at the Apollo. How do you feel? you come across brilliantly on TV. How do you feel about those gigs? Is there a higher degree of nerves attached to those? Oh, I get very nervous. Oh, yeah, I do.

I get very, very nervous. I remember doing live with the Apollo and thinking, I might pass out. The big thing might come up and I'm just on the floor. In my safe position, face down, live on the floor. Yeah, I get very, very nervous, very nervous. But it's a start, it's started to get a bit easier for me now, because I'd be older you get, you realize, yeah, what's the worst that can happen? I think, I think post-pandemic as well, there's an element of what's the worst thing could happen, you know?

This last year has been so interesting for people's mental health, because it has absolutely destroyed some people and has made life so hard. But I do think there are very interesting lessons to be learnt from this period of time when you are completely out of control because you can't, you literally can't control what's going on in the world. I personally, it's really odd though, but I think as soon as I got to my 40s, I think it was sort of mid 40s and now I recently turned 50 and it's, I feel less, I suppose I'm so, I'm aware that how I look is so irrelevant now. and guess what it always was, but I just didn't know that. But it's like you're judged so much less on that.

It's like I just feel it's not my currency, and I kind of personally now, I find that so liberating because it means, oh right, I just have to focus entirely on what I say and do now because nothing is wrapped up in that. Did you feel that getting older? I suppose I've always had like what I would describe as a quirky face. I have a, you know, big nose, pointy chin. Quirky face, I have a quirky face.

I've never been a pretty girl. I was never, I was never, I suppose I've never been particularly, oh God, this sounds all, girly, you don't know what I mean? So I never focused on that myself. I guess, I've always considered myself a person first. Then maybe a woman, then maybe a gay woman, and then sort of a, you know, scrubs up all. right but I've never put maybe because I wasn't interested in attracting I don't know what

but I was never that focused on what I looked like so much but there is also that thing of yes getting older and I'm 50 this year and yeah not caring so much I need to talk about lightning which is your show yes yes I love it's your new quiz show on is it's a new quiz show on is BBC two? BBC two. Series one's just finished. So we are in that sort of limboe period of going, do we get to strike again? So we're waiting to see.

It did really well. It got good for you in numbers and it, and it seems to do really, really well. I loved doing it. It's something I've never even considered doing. I've never even been on my radar. And then my agent found me said, got you an audition for a quiz show. And in my way, I went, well, that'll never happen, will it? So I'll go.

So I went and did a run through and I thought, I think that went okay, I'm not sure. And then a few months later, I found out I'd got it. And basically they wanted something a bit quirkier and with a little bit of personality and a little bit cheeky. And because I've done quite a lot of comparing, I could bring that to the party, I suppose. I absolutely loved it. I loved it. It was such a fascinating experience for me as well. And it was only when I got in the studio, I had the makeup done, the hair done, it was in the shiny suit.

And we started rolling that. I went, oh Christ, I've never done this before. I haven't the clue what I'm doing. It was a proper moment where I went, I literally happened to clue what I'm doing. And I could hear the director in my ear and, you know, sharing off all these terms. I was going, run grams. Run Grams. What was for I'm Gramsmith?

I was Googling television terms. television terms under the podium, oh, it's the jingle. Right, okay. It was, I could probably wing my way through most things these things. If somebody says, go up and give a TED talk about the Hadron Collider, I'll be like, I'll give it a go. Because I'll have done worse gigs. You know, I've done gigs that have gone worse than that. So, so you do give things a go. Yeah. So tell me how you met your wife, Zoe. We met 23 years ago. Such a case story.

On the island of Les Ross, all the lesbians are available in other locations, but it just happened to be there and it just happened to be there. I was living in London, she was living in Holland, And we spent 18 months going back into. We have been together for 22 years. But unfortunately, during pandemic, we have, we've actually separated. So, but we are now at a point where we are able to talk.

But Zoe, we don't need to put, we don't have to. Oh, it's okay. I don't mind about it. It happens, and it's happened a lot in the last 12 months. And I think, you know, people, it's helpful if people hear it. Yeah. I'm sure you're right. I think it's something that a lot of people are going to be dealing with,

but it's not, it doesn't make it easier when it's your story. It's not easy. It's really not easy. But you know what? This hasn't been an easy year for any, I don't think anybody's come high kicking out of 2020 to 2021 going, well that was fun I think I think it's really you know it's um it's been very tough and it's been very uh soul searching um and it's but it's um but it does happen it happens all of the time and it doesn't

mean that you don't love that person it just means that circumstances have changed and that situations have changed and you know and people change and you can still love them very very much yeah you can still love them very very very much and the thing is to move forward in a positive way. I think that's the thing, isn't it, to try and move forward in a kind positive way. Thankfully we don't have children. We didn't want any, because we couldn't stand them. So we just, you know, we just have us. The interesting thing I think is, you know, we've just said to each other, there is no template for what our future relationship should or or can look like this.

We can make it whatever works for us out of kindness and out of love and out of respect. And if that means, you know, you live like a hinge and bracket with me in a cupboard under the stairs, then that's fine. Because there is no template and there is no sort of, there shouldn't be. You just find what works for you, what works for both of you to make your future's better. Yeah. Yeah. And that's born out of real love, really. Yeah. People say funny things when you split up, you know, some people who said, you're throwing away 22 years. You go, no, no, I had 22 years. We had 20 years. They haven't gone anywhere. They are all, they're still

there. That's everything that's there. The photographs sort of, you know, we've had all of that. We will have a different future. That is all. But we will be in each other future. It's funny when people say that. I think it's interesting, my therapist, actually, not going to lie, said to me. I've just started. It's marvelous. I've got to learn how to do it because I'm really playing it for laughs at the moment. So I really am. It's really bad. I'm like, I'm paying for this shit. I should be taking it seriously.

But the first couple of times, I absolutely played it for laughs. And I was like, you know, if I got four or five in an hour, I was like, hit rate. If I make my therapist laugh, it's a good day. It's a first thing, isn't it? But then I sort of, those are often the sessions, if I'm honest, that I'll come away from thinking, well, I did great, I did great. And what about it? It was really, sometimes I'll say, I was really articulate the way I, some not that. I think she was really impressed by my insight.

I had literally the same conversation with somebody earlier today when I went, I think they look forward to our chats. I think I bring something quite unique to the table. Clearly, I don't. We're all, you know, I don't. But that is the performer and the ego. And you're going, I bet they look forward to our conversations. Well, they're not. They're just sitting there going, oh, quid.

Right, fair enough. How do you feel? You're all right. I imagine I'm going to her husband saying, I just, you know what? I mean, I've had a lot of clients, but Emily Dean, the insight that she plays and her intelligence, her courage, her fortitude. Bravery.

I just find that hilarious that I have the very, very same thought. I find that so funny. What's wrong with us? Well, they'll tell us eventually. And you've got Groucho. I've got Groucho, little bastard. Before we say goodbye to you, firstly, I'd like to get your, assurance that, and I won't take no for an answer, that I can come to Brighton and go out with you

and Groucho for a walk. I would love that more than anything. That would be fantastic, lovely. You'll already be coming because I'll have to have to have a chat with Groucho first about what he can and can't bark. Emily, I would genuinely love that. That would be so sweet. That'd be really, really good fun. We'll have a donut by the pier. So can we get Groucho back? Let me see if I can grab him. Bear with me, I'm going to have to leave the screen. Ouch.

Bickeys! Yay, bickies! There are no bickies. Oh, he's gone. Come on, we'll have Elfie. What's he got there, Zoe? Elfie. Elfie is a very stinky Christmas present that he loves, loves Elfie.

Wow. I don't want to play toys. Hobbson. But, uh, oh. How about you meet? Oh. Mr. Santa Mirkat. Santa Mir cat.

Santa Mir cat. Who? Oh. Does Elfi squeak? Oh, he used to squeak, but it doesn't, I mean, there's, that doesn't last long with that. Did he used to squeak though? Or are you trying to... No, he did.

He used to squeak. He did... I don't want to take away from your... From your Khmer cat, but he did used to squeak. Oh, God, your teeth. So we're going to say goodbye to Groucho. Ray, can you say goodbye to Groucho? Do you want to describe what happened there, Zoe?

What did he do? He just gave you a look of... He just completely turned his head away. He did. He's completely... He's heard about Groucho. He's like, don't leave him with that thug. Absolute thug.

Made behind a bin dog. Yeah. So thank you so much. Absolute pleasure, a real pleasure. And do get in touch when you come down. That'd be lovely. Yeah, we'll have a walk. A walk and a talk.

I can't wait. Super. I'll wake out, Joe. Take care, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye, bye. I really hope you enjoyed listening to that.

And do remember to rate, review and subscribe. on iTunes.