WAR MODE - The Secret Sun (pt.1 ) Ft. Christopher Knowles and Greg Carlwood

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

Go support Greg and listen to the higherside Chats https://www.thehighersidechats.com/ Christopher Knowles  https://linktr.ee/secretsunblog     www.michaelstrange.foundation www.epsteinjustice.com www.curfewfellowahipfund.org www.patreon.com/WARMODE for pt 2

What would I have done? I would have done a legitimate investigation to find out what exactly happened on 9-11. How did they know who did this so quickly like they did Lee Harvey Oswald? Who's going to investigate the investigators? Who's going to investigate the prosecutors? Who's going to hold them accountable? Who's going to hold us public officials accountable? And that's all we're trying to do here, in addition to trying to find the truth.

Do you honestly and truly in your heart believe that Sandy Hook actually happened? Yes or no? All right, number two. And I'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you're trying to take off fire on you. It's only just begun. Welcome to war mode, folks. So Spade sent me a picture of the great Chris Null's synchromistic handbook and said it's a show he'd like to do. I said, hey, I think that sounds fun.

I'm not going to get out of the house. And so we made it happen. This is amazing. We need you for the beginning of every episode, dude. Yeah, I don't know if a lot of people know, like, but Chris is like a X-Files expert. And I have a thing in my head where I don't know, like, how, I don't know if I was, like, born and I'm just me

or if the X-Files actually had, like, a huge effect on the way I think about stuff. And when things happen, I'm, like, subconsciously, connecting it to like some episodes that I saw like I tried to rewatch it when they when they rebooted the X-Files back in like 2016 or whatever I started watching it and it was like a book that I had already read that it was like in me I was like I've seen all these like I know all these you know what I mean I was like 10 or 11 years old when it came out so yeah it's not a TV series it's a grimoire basically I've never seen any of the X-files I might have been too young for it oh yeah you're too

young the thing that is great to start the thing that's great about his X-Files book is just going basically episode by episode or story arc by story arc and being like here's where it mirrored real-world events of the time to some degree. And you didn't know if reality was lifting from X-Files or vice versa. Kyle Odom being a good example. Oh, yeah. Towards the end, you know the Kyle Odom story? Vaguely. I remember it from the book. But I don't remember it in real life. He went and shot Pastor Remington. And he shot him six to 12 times reports are all over the place but he shot him at least six times he said this guy's a reptilian and i fucking know it and he shot the guy point blank six times with hollow points and the guy lived

with hollow points yeah so it made you think like maybe this kid knows something and that's the kind of stuff that would happen in the x-files oh yeah so the kid so isn't an episode of the x-files this is real life this is a real life like bill there's like there's like little there's characters in the x-files and they're called a lone gunman yeah and like it's a famous predictive programming thing so They fly a plane into the Twin Towers or a building. I can't remember Empire State's building or something like that. World Trade Center. World Trade Center, right?

So they jump on the lone gunman is a spinoff series of the X-Files. Arnon Milcham becomes the executive producer. A couple months before that, the X-Files does an episode called Medusa or something. But he had an old thing in the 70s called the Medusa plot. So it's like, you don't know if it's, or Medusa Touch, yeah. You don't know if it's predative programming or like this is where, the synchromistic shit comes in because now aren't on no chains in the mix. Yeah.

And like he did Fight Club and all the buildings are coming down. He did a ton of predictive program. Yeah. So I don't understand like where it stops and starts. Because it is at that point when you start thinking about this shit, it gets into like, woo. Yeah. I think everybody knows the recent Snake Eyes example where you just

see this Charlie Kirk assassination and then you go back to the 90s in this movie Snake Eyes has so many hits with the different beats of that shooting. a guy named Charles Kirkland in the movie, gets shot in the neck in a public thing. The boxer at a public boxing match.

The boxer in the ring, his name was Tyler, and he provided the distraction. So you got Tyler the Patsy. It's like so many weird things. So that's why I love synchromysticism, which is Chris's art form in which that's where he weaves best. And it's just so bizarre to me to see these things laid out in fiction and then real world events mirror them,

Like another weird one is the Unabomber. They caught him in the scapegoat wilderness. And it's like there's just a weird potency. It's what are it called? I was listening to you guys for eight hours yesterday working on my house. And I was like, this is like when you're growing up, like this has this been how your brain worked the whole time? Who me? Yeah.

Like seeing all these connections and stuff like that. You don't want to, you don't want to go there. Yeah. that's what i'm saying like it is crazy how much stuff is connected especially with like the um the buckley stuff because i'm like way into music and stuff like that so like once you start talking about jeff buckley i've never i've recently got into greek mythology oh yeah like very recently and now that you're talking about like this yeah with the odyssey yeah with the odyssey and like there's an old like greek myth timeline like i'm actually afraid like you were talking about like

don't let the gods like live so the gods don't know that notice you yes that shit makes complete sense because yeah like the way the connections with the buckley and what's the lady's name Elizabeth's brazier I've never heard of that woman like even you've heard you've listened to heaven in Las Vegas you just don't know it maybe yeah but that is like massive attack massive attack I know because Jimmy Herring is the guitarist for that right or one of them maybe maybe it's like a jam band type thing yeah but they're not a jam band massive attack is it I don't think so. I got that wrong. Well, my thinking Jeff Buckley has really evolved from doing all this research and I don't think that death was accidental at all. In a matter of fact, I don't think he

went near that river when he was alive. Really? Oh yeah. So for people who don't know, the official story of Jeff Buckley's death is that he was in Memphis right near that pyramid. You know, you got to layer the esoteric stuff in there. The famous bash post shop. Pyrid. And then he, yeah, and then he just decided to go swimming in the Wolf River. And then he got taken under, they say a tugboat came by and the undertow dragged him under. Dudes in his 30s, good health. He had no drugs in his system.

There's no reason for him to do an impromptu swim in the Wolf River except they took out Bill Colby. He was called by the siren. He was called by the siren. It was like, it could have been like as low as 55 degrees down at the river that night. It was 70. It was so chilly that he took. his jacket with him when he went out.

You're not telling swimming. No. No. And this little lagoon is a sewer basically. I mean, it's a stinky It's like a runoff for the city. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. And the whole story,

I really went through it with a fine tooth comb and it doesn't make any sense at all. At all. So where does it start? Where's the story start? Well, the story is is that, and it's so hinky, that he was, his boys were coming in because he just finished his demos and they were going to start

rehearsing for the tour and for the album. And he and this other guy, and that's a whole other story, we won't get into that, you know, and we're going to go to the rehearsal studio, get there early and set up and get ready for these guys to show up. But the manager says, you know, be back by nine. And he's like, okay. So at nine o'clock, nine o'clock, nine o'clock, he decides that he's going to go down to the Wolf River Lagoon for a swim and take a swim when the temperature is below 60. He's fully dressed. He's wearing his boots. This thing's a friggin, an opening a sewer.

Yeah. And everything else that happens. But the whole thing just doesn't add up. I mean, I went through every detail. And it's like they had been to the studio before and then they couldn't find it the next day. Come on. And it was a few blocks away. So are they getting dosed or something?

I don't know. I think it gets really dark, man. And there's a whole backstory that we won't have time to go into here. But I think, let me just say this. Since I know the details of the backstory that we'll say for another time, and then I went and read the lyrics that he was writing. And it's like he was writing about things that were going to get him noticed by some very, very dangerous people who had no patience, you know, for that kind of nonsense.

And that's just my, that's just my opinion. I'm just going to say it's my opinion. So for people's context, the real, like, the center of the whole nexus of these connections is Elizabeth Frazier from the cocktoot twins. And if you were talking about a woman, I said, yeah, I always get. So you were telling me about when we were eating breakfast and like, while you guys were like, chilling. I started looking it up. And then there's a song, this mortal coil.

And the comments on this, I was like, people are like actually afraid of this song. And she's some kind of siren that called him to the river. Yes. Well, Chris's the hell. And I've never, like, here's the one comment. I mean, not try to read comments, but this is not a song. It's a spell and it's haunted me for years. I mean. Yes. Well, people had said there's all kinds of articles

where people say Liz Frazier has like an angelic voice, that she has this type of voice where it's almost like there's this a layered melody in one. one single person's voice. And that might be a spiritual presence that comes through when she sings. Because Chris's premise is that in the Greeks, the Greeks had like the sirens and the Sybils. This is in the myths.

And she might be a modern siren. So she and Jeff Buckley were lovers and then they broke up. And then I believe her song, Song of the Siren, he sang it shortly before. No, no. I mean, she sang it in 83 and then she stopped. singing. I don't believe he ever sang it. His father wrote the song. There we go. And that's how, and that's how we got noticed. But there's another person here who, who entered my research a couple years ago, sing, you know, PJ Harvey? Yeah, the girl. You're the singer? Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

Well, she was, um, deep Genax niche. Yeah, this is deep. This is, yeah, seriously. And, uh, she was corresponding with him. Now, the reason why that really upsets me, let's just say is that she was friends very close friends with a legendary British DJ named John Peel who like the Peel sessions yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so she was close friends with him but let's check this out you're not at the bead John Beal was not only a self-admitted pedophile who impregnated a teenage girl when he was in Texas in the 60s but somehow somehow he happened to be in the booking room at the The Dallas police station when Lee Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Rooney.

Somehow he just happened to be there. Let's take it down. We've got a long way to go. What the fuck? So, I mean, this whole story, you know, I have an expression. It never ends. And it's just like every time you lift up a rock, there's another layer. It's just unbelievable.

Do you think that a lot of the people that we see in the media are constructs of like a system, like a synchromistic system or something, where it's like, what you're saying, that she can pull forward the power of the sirens, and like they can play out these, like, they can play out like a myth for us in a TV show or a movie or something, and it has a huge effect on us. But they're like kind of selected people. Well, here's what I think. And this is what I've said for years.

When you start playing with this stuff, it notices you. and the expression from the Mothman prophecies and RPSO others, you noticed them, and they noticed that you noticed them. So when you start playing with this stuff, you attract the attention of the gods, forces beyond your understanding. I mean, I am absolutely convinced of this.

This isn't like supposition on my part. And once you do that, you know, they start playing with you. And, you know, I talked about this in the synchromistic handbook, you know, you start to... I got scared, I stopped. You enter in this process, and it's like you're almost having a conversation with these forces, you know, through the medium of synchronicity.

So it's not something to play with. I mean, I feel really... And would this be, like, a cult? Stuff that, like, you would see intelligence agencies know, like... Oh, yeah, oh, absolutely. You know what I mean? Like, this is, like, something that they would know, like, going back to like Crowley era bullshit.

Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, when you read those books, particularly there's a guy named Kenneth Grant, who is Crowley's secretary. Now, when you read his stuff, I mean, it's so clear that it's all based on manufacturing and manipulating synchronicity ultimately. And that's the whole stuff with the Jamatria

and all the stuff. And that's why they're always pulling all these symbols and they're always trying to construct these things. And I realized when I really started, and it was Gordon, who kind of, of tutored me, Gordon White, who taught me. Beautiful man. Yeah, he tutored me on this.

And it was just like what magic really is, ultimately, is about trying to manipulate and enter into this contract, basically, with the forces that are behind synchronicity. Yeah. Okay. It usually law of attraction stuff kind of. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. that's what like um the stuff that freaks me out is like have you ever looked into like led zeppelin at the bluskin house yeah like clan fraser by the way who's that clan fraser was the family who built ballaskin house are you serious oh yeah so like to the check yeah well it's just in no relation it's just like the terms fraser and liz come up a lot like who is the girl the actress who just died Hayden so you posted that the cheer that save the world yeah so so Chris posted a picture of her and her sisters and her sisters, one of them married someone named Frazier and one of them's name is Liz or something?

I would have to refresh my memory. My brain's a little full up right now. There were crazy synchronicities with that. It seems like there's always, like when there's these national tragedies. Yeah. The reason Chris says it never ends is because he does a little digging and then like Frazier will come up or the family lives in Fraser, Connecticut, or just it just keeps coming up. I have had this experience, too.

Like, if I, like, it's along the same lines as the thing. I can't really put it into words to you with this, like, X-Files kind of, like, thing in my head. Where there's stuff that I watched when I was so young that it's, like, kind of just in me to the point where it's, like, record, like, carved into, like, a groove. Where I'll see that stuff and I'll be like, that's a show. But then I'll see things that, like, relate to it in real life. And I'm like, that's real life, though. But then I kind of get, like, shown media stuff that's created by somebody that's, like... What do you want me to do?

It's like deep state kind of stuff. Like I'll end up hearing like there'll be some show that I love. Like in one of your, in one of the chapters in the X-Files book. So like the X-Files book's cool. It kind of like rates all the episodes. And then it shows like what happened that year. And like time to me, time to me is not very like linear. Like I can't really remember things that good.

But I had no idea. I got hit with. So I was just a kid listening to a fucking nirvana. stuff, just chilling. And then, you know, 9-11 happens. And then all of a sudden, the media is, like, hitting me with minority report, born identity. These are all, like, in one year. And, dude, I can't tell you, for about a decade, I wanted to be Jason born. Deep inside. Like, I was like, I can do that. I can jump that. I can run half a mile without sweating. And, like, I want to know, like, these things had such a big effect on me. But a huge subplot of fucking X-Files is creating super

soldiers. Yeah. Yeah. So like I'm like a little kid and this stuff's getting pumped in my military. If I was just reading the the Odyssey dude, I would know about the sirens. I would know about the myths. Yeah. I would know the source material. They know the source material. They tap into it to play games. Everyone's on the stage and then they'll show me something and then it has an effect on my life. And I just don't know where it stops and starts. It's like what, do you get what I'm saying? That's what I'm not going to. That's called awareness. Yeah. That's called consciousness. That's what I was talking about. Obviously, this is not a video show, but I think it's the cast of the Cove.

And one of them's name is Eliza, basically anagram of Isabel, anagram of Elizabeth. And then the other one's last name is Frazier. Yes, Hannah Frazier. She also calls herself Hannah Mermaid. Which is, which mermaids are another, like in this set of symbols that Chris has like been nailing to this situation, Mermaids come up constantly. You're like Ariel. And so again, yeah, all right.

Well, again, it's like, why is this chick named Frazier? Why does she go by mermaid? Again, like, what gave her the idea to go by mermaid? There is something in the field that seems to like a certain set of symbols and also likes tragedy. So when you see these people die and it becomes a national story, look for Frazier and Elizabeth to be related or mermaids or pearly do drops drop. That was one of her songs. It was pearly dew drops drop. Who's song?

Elizabeth Frazier. And so pearls keep coming up. And then it also ties into the Nephilim thing because pearls is basically semen and like the gods come into the woman. You know, they come into human women, you know, the mating. To create them. Yeah. That's like if like this is like no one's like nail you down on this. Like do you think that like from what I was listening to.

you guys talking for a while, like, is there a religion that we're just not keen to? And, like, this is them doing sacrifices to whatever deity that they worship. And, like, they got us, like, sniffing out other trails with, like, all the other religions that are just dead ends. Part of it is, part of it is, part of it is for sure. But also, some of it is, you know, these forces taking their own sacrifices. So they're just forces, you would say. It's not really, like, even entities we can comprehend. Well, I use the term ultra-terrestrials. Oh, yeah, I like that term.

That's, you know, the work I did with the series I called Lucifer's Technologies that sort of traces back all this to Roswell, which I don't believe was a UFO crash. I believe it was a very elaborate ritual to these ultraterrestrial forces. There's something that happens to me a lot, like especially like I'm with you on NASA just being absolute front for something. But all that alien stuff, there's something in me that just thinks all of it is a complete lie

to either get you to acquiesce or join some like one world religion or something. Exeterrestrials, I agree. I agree with extraterrestrials for sure. I haven't believed for a very long time that there are physical extraterrestrials among us. I like that's why you say ultra-terrestrials. It's basically like spiritual forces,

but it's not such a loaded term as spirit. You know, you make the term up, but ultra-terrestrial is like multidimensional entity, electromagnetic entity, but it's not alien from an foreign planet. So, yeah. It seems like extraterrestrials is a sci-op to cover up, I think, spiritual forces.

I mean, Bill's a little triggered because he tried to, Billy thought he could stare at goats for a second. Oh, dude. We thought he could go to the Monroe Institute. I went to the Monroe Institute. Oh, wow. It was the biggest load of horseshit I've ever been to. It was like gasoline.

It's a CIA front where they just trick like it is. You don't know it's a CIA, but this is you're guessing. This is what I'm guessing. It is like they're just everybody down there loved aliens. They were every single one of them. They were like, oh, I like, I was in my bed like and I was remote viewing and I saw aliens. Like your whole fucking algorithm is aliens. No shit when you close your eyes.

You're going to see aliens. It's like you already plugged into the motherboard like doing whatever. It was like I think I might have been. the only person and then I got an old lady very mad because this guy did this whole thing about he saw an alien spaceship and it's coming and she said what do you think and I was like I don't even fucking believe in space at this point like I can't fathom aliens because I don't know what the hell's going on up there kind of a dome earther right now yeah I mean I've seen UFOs I got you know good looks at them two of which were orbs and those are those are definitely

plasma entities and you like immediately feel different when you see those like does it affect your body somehow? It's unsettling at best. It's disturbing. And I think it's also very closely related to death as well. I think that I think the paranormal itself is a byproduct of death and tragedy and suffering. You know, it's sort of like the lous. Yeah, loose farms and stuff.

That kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, you know, you got to realize that I'm somebody who believes in a lot of stuff that people think is crazy. I want to hear about it. Yeah, but people have, you know, it's because I've had these experiences, you know. And we had a real tragedy in the family back in late 2016, and it just upset everything. And then there was a lingering presence that made itself known to a lot of people. Let's just say, I won't go into too many details here.

But shortly after that, I'd come outside to walk my job. dog and I looked up in the sky and I see this big plane and then it stops in the middle of the sky and I go oh wait a minute planes don't stop and then I look at it again I mean I took photos of it too and it was a classic Chevron yeah and it was just hovering and then started doing it was really bright and it starts doing these weird lateral moves in the sky and stuff and I I know I live streamed it to Gordon on my little iPad back back when it happened and you know we woke my daughter up and told her to come out and look at it and then we just got tired looking at it but um i that's crazy just like i'm good on that well here's the funny thing before i had seen this

here's what happened so before i'd seen it i watched this netflix documentary called the man who's the curse of the man who sees ufos and it's about this like musician who lives down in the monterey california and he has taken hundreds of hours of footage and photographs of ufos And I was sort of thinking, like, what is it about Monterey, you know, Big Sur, that kind of area down there? Like, what is it that sort of manifests this kind of thing? Because there's been a lot of sightings of Big Sur and so on. And that's, just as I was thinking then, I looked up in the sky, and that's where I saw this thing just, like, sitting there. And I was like, that's not aerodynamic.

But then again, it didn't look totally real either. Like, it looked physical, you know. And when you look at the photographs, you can see structure. but it didn't look entirely real. And that's the same thing with those orbs that myself, my wife and my daughter saw. We're coming up Route 93, right? We're coming up 93 into New Hampshire and just cross over the state line. And there are these orbs that are just harassing this small plane.

And when you see this stuff, you're like, oh, okay, this changes my world. And a few months before that, my son was working at this golf course, and he and his friends saw all these orbs hovering and, you know, doing these sort of maneuvers and movements and stuff. And he took footage of that on his, you know, his crappy old iPhone. But when you see this stuff, and it's just like it's no longer supposition or imagination, you have to sort of make a choice. Like, what do I think of this?

How do I proceed? And I'll tell you something right now. after that sighting that I mentioned with the Chevron, I just stopped being interested in UFOs at all. I just like, okay, I'm done. No more. No weird dreams or nothing afterwards? Oh, dude, you probably don't follow my Twitter feed.

I have the weirdest dreams. Same Zies. I also have sleep paralysis, not a competition. So, you know, weird dreams with me is sort of like on a sliding scale. Okay. But no, you just, they're real. It's a real phenomenon I haven't believed that it's extraterrestrial

for a very long time I mean at least almost 20 years now That's what I think disclosure is Is they are trying to make it fit into materialism They're trying to say these are just humanoid aliens From another planet and it's like absolutely not Did you guys see it? Huh? Did you guys go see disclosure that? No which is funny because when we were

We were awful I left me and Billy saw it I laughed And he was shaking next to me laughing when they showed the big I thought that aliens walking. At the end, I was like, dude, are you fucking kidding me, bro? It's like shimmerless. When we were planning to set this up, I did think, oh, that'll be a good catalyst. Maybe we'll go see Disclosure Day the night before, and then we'll record the podcast.

And then like, man, considering all the hype that movie had, it just died. A week after its release, just died. What do you think the purpose of that is? That's a good question for him. They say it's the last bit of boomer UFO propaganda. Give them a little more something before they go. Yeah. I think Spielberg, you know, he probably figured this is his last rodeo.

Yeah. You know, and plays his music. He does his little lighting tricks. He's had success. He had unfathomable success with Close Encounters and E.T. And then he did stuff like Falling Skies and Taken. I mean, more as a producer. But, I mean, it's always been something that he's been really interested.

And then he, you know, he fell for all this nonsense that, you know, like the long. Remember we were talking about the long? Like in 2017 when he started up without a hole to the song. Stars Academy. Oh, yeah, DeLong, that suburban asshole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr. Blank 182. And all this, you know, people like Elizando and Grosch.

I hate Lou Elzano. That weird, like, that's like a weird little internet soap opera. It's a cult. It's a cult. It's a cult. Greer. Greer, Stephen Greer. The thing that freaks me out about Greer is the way he lies, you would have had to have been

taught by the fucking military to lie at that speed and for that long because he makes up the craziest shit in the world. They all do. And then he did that like little laser thing where you shine a laser up in the sky and the aliens come do like a fucking cat. And sea setting ranch. Which should show you it's not aliens from another planet because if something can be summoned, you know, it's in the word.

Summon ding ding ding. Yeah. This is a spiritual thing. Yeah. His thing too was like wasn't like C5 or something. We all get in a circle and start like kind of chanting. Which is summoning. I mean it's exactly what indigenous cultures do.

You know, Gordon, he interviewed. R.D. Sixth Killer Clark, who is a woman who did a book about Native American stories of UFOs. Right. And in that book, Gordon highlighted to me that, like, when she asks the indigenous shaman, like, well, what about, what about UFOs? You talk a lot about spirits and beans from the sky. What about UFOs? And he goes, we're the least interested in the ones that have to take the bus to get here.

Oh, that's a good one, yeah. And it's a great line. It's a great line. So she's like, we just summon the entities directly. Yeah. And so that's what shamans have done forever. That was another thing in the X-Files. So.

Yeah, that's true. But that's what Stephen Greer does. Stephen Greer does a weird techno-shamanism. Right. That he basically co-opted an indigenous practice and charges a thousand bucks to go. Yeah. But it's just guys sitting around concentrating on, hey, I'd love to see a spirit or UFO. And then they show up because it's a, it's something in consciousness.

It's not. They track the flights and supposedly there was, there were, if you look at the flight patterns or when he did it, there was airplanes that were, overhead or drones or something and they have the flight patterns of the actual aircraft that are above that area. Well, I mean, that might be a total scam, but I do know people who have gone to, um, going out on a limb there. Well, people, I'm just saying, I know people who have gone to hang out with the blood soes, for example. And they have seen orbs. He went to the Monroe Institute as well, said it was awesome. That dude alive at anything. Danny Jones, Danny Jones said he went down with, with them and some. Well, you know, I just got to go with the stories I hear. But, um, what

What the blood sows do is apparently they can summon the orbs and people will see them if you're hanging out with them. And so I assume that's a lot of times what Stephen Greer is doing, but he also might just be checking flight paths. And that's like the opposite of what Chris is talking about. It's like, why are you trying to summon these motherfuckers? Like, hey, come over here. Look at me. Like you want to live your own life and do your own thing and not trying to summon these fucking deities that are bad mojo. It's bad mojo. This is so you're obviously listening. I just can't see this, but this is, I took this photo through the viewfinder of my wife's camera and that's what we saw.

Yeah, that's what I'd show my pants. Pretty bizarre. It's a weird light. That's a weird light thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like you looked in and go, that's not aerodynamic. That's scare.

The reason people engage with it is because they think about it more in an alien context. If you think of it isn't in an occult context, you probably do have more trepidation about getting yourself personally involved. Okay. So you think we were like fed aliens or this is just like something that kind of happened by accident? No, it's a cult. It's a cult that was, so here's the deal. I mean, I've been working this for a very long time. The United States Navy during World War II in the Pacific theater, there was basically a cult that formed not only with American but also British officers. And one of them shares my name, Herbert Knowles. What was his name? Rear Admiral Hurl.

And there was another guy, I forget his title, but his name was Victor Goddard. He was the British guy. And this has always been a project of naval intelligence. I mean, you know the whole thing with the Tic Tac. Yeah, yeah. Where did that come from? The Navy, yeah. And it always seems to come from the Navy.

I mean, a lot of stuff comes from the Navy intelligence, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're more powerful than the CIA. You hear about guys in your Navy intelligence. They're like, I worked in the Navy for a year. And it is weird. They're always kind of in international waters and shit. Don't know ever the fuck that.

Oh, but here's the thing. So you know about Jack Parsons. Oh, yes. People didn't believe Elron Hubbard when he said that he was naval intelligence. Yeah. But he was. But guess who else was naval intelligence? Jack Parsons, Scarlet Woman.

Oh, his-Marjorie Cameron. Yeah, she had top secret clearance during the war. She was an artist. So she became a mapmaker. She worked in Washington at Naval Intelligence headquarters, and then she just magically shows up. And, you know, in Pasadena after they do the Babylon working. Wasn't they all, like, kind of really obsessed with her, too?

Well, here's the thing. Her brother and her father were working at JPL. Fuck. You know? Exploding shit. It is a cult. It is a cult. They had placed, so they had placed all these people, Cameron, the Cameron boys, and Hubbard,

within Parsons Circle, and then he starts talking about Phoenutions, and she's talking about UFOs at war engines, and before she entered the house in Pasadena, she saw a UFO hovering over it and all this kind of stuff. So it is a cult, and this is something way too, you know, deep and detail to go to hear but um it it is a religious cult and it is a cultic in nature yeah and they're when you start to really pour through the details you can't separate like where is the occult where is the you know the crazy science fiction stuff where is the disin you know it all just like yeah i have a hard time like keeping it all in my brain in the same thing it's like i can either do like occult and crypted and magical stuff where I could do like mk often mk ultra like I can't I can't have them come together

they do they bleed through I mean the same characters are involved and the guy Admiral Knowles what I thought you did that was great is you took where Admiral Knowles was stationed on a map and then showed along the air all around the area all the major UFO events of the time and he's right in the middle it's almost like if a guy's job was to create UFO events and you're just going to the old nine to five clock and in clocking out. Yeah. You're you the practicality of going north this week, south next week. Like in living right in the center of it, it's like from a practical standpoint of an

op, you have to go to these locations to simulate an event or to fool someone and are thinking they had an experience. Yeah. So he lived right in the middle of it and it's just like, oh, that was his job. And you know, I went back. I now have transcripts of old episodes and I went back through some of them of mentions. of old UFO stories of the 40s and 50s. And it almost always comes down to some military guy

is the source of this story. Yeah. And so it's like the tall waste documentary. Now there are books full of regular people's accounts, but they are way more bizarre and dreamlike. And they'll be like, oh, it turned into a manted bean and then a silver ship and then a star. And it's like, yeah, that's what the real phenomenon is.

But then if you talk to, if you lump just the stories that involve, a military person. You get disclosure die. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, too-sha. That's exactly it.

But that's the boomer up is basically people who grew up in the 80s and 90s to believe that it's little green men. So we might out there. It was programmed. You know, people misunderstand what predictive programming really means. And it isn't like, oh, we're going to show you this and then it's going to happen. It's like we are going to predict the future by inventing it. Yes.

That line from the X-Files, right? And that's exactly what happened. people, boomers, you know, I mean, I love boomers. I married a bummer, so, you know, there we go. No judgment. No judgment. No judgment here. They were programmed with this stuff. And, you know, I'm a Gen Xer and we were too. I mean, I loved Close Encounters. I loved ET. Now I can't even watch E.T because it's so pito-coded. It makes me vomit. Yeah. Oh, and it's disgusting. Yeah. But it's like when you told this over, it's the same thing like we believe, oh, there are going to be

bases on the moon or they're going to be flying cars. Are they going to be hovercraft or, you know, all these things that were led to believe. Why did we believe them? Because we saw them on television. We saw them on television. That's what programmed us. Tell a vision. You know?

Tell live vision. And programming. You know, why do they straight up call it programming? But his, so you read my X-Files book. Yeah. I don't know if you read the chapter on. I didn't read the very end of it. Okay.

So, so. Like your, your, your, you're like, um. My fan theory. fan theory and stuff like that. I didn't read that part. We did talk about that. We did talk about it. I watched the episodes with the ratings and the descriptions and the Easter eggs.

Okay. So let me just say, I mean, I have this theory. I mean, I've been obsessing on this thing forever, and I co-wrote the official book on it and everything. My theory, and it hit me like a ton of bricks, is that this is not about aliens. This is about two mind-controlled assassins who are part of this breeding program. It's a sort of eugenic. Breeding's a huge thing in it. And like MK.K. Ultra is all part of this, you know,

because one thing I noticed several years ago is like every time they would do one of what they call the mythology stories, which is about aliens and UFOs and stuff, they would be just before or just afterward, it would be like something that was like totally MK. Ultra Code. It's something about mushrooms. They did a lot of stories about hallucinogens and stuff like that. So like... They would have episodes that are like standalone episodes. So you'd watch it.

it would start there'd be a problem. Molder and Scully fix it. It's over. Like CIS. Then there's, then like the next step would be like carrying on this like storyline with the cigarette smoking man and this goes on for years. That's crazy.

Like so there's these like arc ones. Like so they're like a different vibe of an episode. Yeah. But so what I, you know, like I said, the conclusion I came to is like, oh my God, this is this is about,

you know, mind control and eugenics. Meaning that Scully and Molder were mind-controlled into thinking they're hunting aliens when really they're hunting people who are the products of government experimentation. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So they're hunting down the people that got loose on them. Exactly. Yeah.

What do you think about the dude from the Sopranos making the MK Ultra show? David Chase. I didn't. So the guy that made the Sopranos, he's making an MK Ultra series. On HBO. So that might be the final boomer. I don't know. It might, you know, those things always, the guy who did, what's his name, Errol Morris.

Yes. He did a thing. And it's just like the same old stories, you know. And the thing I've always said, you know, because I went back and read a lot of that original material. It's just like, this was not, there was no scientific basis. This is pure witchcraft. MKLTO was pure witchcraft. It was all about erasing personalities and making them fit for entity possession.

And what do we see now? When you say that And then Chris also goes really hard They also said they don't need drugs anymore Because they could just use the screens That's scary That was why they gave up on all that LSD stuff Or they have more sophisticated drugs

Like all the SSRIs And the hormones And this and that I mean how many people on those drugs say Oh I had all these thoughts That didn't feel like my own These thoughts of murdering people And you want to cut your dick off

That's not your thought Right well I heard this story On No Agenda Where they were talking about this girl was on SSRI's and she's like, oh, I just had all these suicidal thoughts. And then one day her dad walked in on her trying to hang herself in her closet. And she broke down in tears and she's like,

I thought that was just one of my, I thought this was a dream. She's like, I didn't realize I was acting out. So that's like, that would be possession. You could consider possession. But he goes really hard on stranger things because saying M.K.

That's a breeding program at the end of that thing. Right. The whole end of stranger things they see is like this big breeding program. Oh, There's all these pregnant women. X-Files is big on that too. But Scully got pregnant. Like the actress got pregnant.

Yeah. There's an interesting backstory we can discuss after. What Chris said to me about Stranger Things is that it seems like in season one they revealed too much. It got blew up and then they were like, oh shit, we have to make this more like about monsters or something. I made a video about that recently. But to say MK Ultra is witchcraft and then watch season one of Stranger Things, I mean

that's what you're doing. You're taking a traumatized girl. who is in a breeding program and you're trying to make her talk to what you think is an alien because you can't see this thing. This thing is a monster. This thing is a demon.

You can't just talk to it and ask it for insights. And they're putting her in this mental space with this monster. That is more what they were doing. Channeling. They're trying to channel demons through children, through trauma.

Yeah, I'm not moving on that, by the way. I'm like, you can fight me because I'll never change my mind about that. What? That MKL is just pure witchcraft. Witchcraft, yeah. Witchcraft, straight up. And then when they, you know, all the successor programs, specifically M.K.

Often, they didn't even hide it anymore. I mean, they were hiring witches and fortune tellos and people all that. Yeah, there's a thing I've read about that where they were like fucking with dolphins. Yeah, oh, John Lilly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What the hell? Yeah, they wanted to program dolphins to, like, bomb ships and stuff. Sick.

Suicide dolphins. Yeah. Suicide dolphins. Yeah. Yeah, kamikaze dolphins, I think you mean, yeah. And it wouldn't come up on the radar. Yeah. Well, they started taking LSD, thought that they were actually mind melding with these dolphins and then start fucking them.

Yeah, a lot of these guys definitely got high in their own supply. Yeah. A lot of them. It could have just been. Like, you know, Farage, Lily, a lot of these guys, you know, they were dipping in. They weren't just, you know, what was the, I'm not just the owner of hair club for men. I'm also a customer. Yeah.

Probably too young to them in those things. But it's the same thing. It's like, I'm not. just an mk ultra witch doctor i'm also you know a subject yeah what is the mk often stuff okay so um the story goes is that they weren't getting the results they were looking for and you started seeing all these split off programs one of which is naomi which they also did a next files episode yeah about now there's this guy um steven auger thank you thank you very good mine meld yes yes uh and you uh and you You know, and Aldrich is, they're connected some, you know, to the Rockefellows.

They're like an old robber baron family. Yes, yes. So he gets put in charge of this program, and it starts in 1966. So what starts in 1966, the Church of Satan and, you know, and the mansons and all this kind of, and all the serial killer movies. Yeah. And devil were, she took acid. And then entities like the Ford Foundation and the Getty family are.

are giving people like Kenneth Anger money to make Lucifer horizon. Fuck, dude, I forget about it. He watched that movie. I'll never watch that. I don't watch, is it like a good call not to watch scary movies? It's not scary. It's just stupid.

It's stupid. It's, and I interviewed that guy. I interviewed that guy back in 2005, 2005, 2000s. Doesn't he have a weird tattoo? Well, he's dead now, but we had to wait for him to get out of jail. This guy was 80 years old, he's a meth head.

80-year-old meth head. And he tries to strangle. the receptionist at this like flop house he was staying in on Skid Row. So, I mean, this guy was just a total mess. Born bad. Born bad, yeah, bad to the bone. But he was definitely a project of M.K. often. And the thing is that all this occult stuff, all the, you know, witchcraft and Satanism

and all this stuff you start seeing in every movie and every book, you know, Rosemary's Baby, the Exorcist, the Omen, all this kind of stuff. You can all trace it back to the formation of M.K., K off in in 1966. And it starts with, you know, the black sorcerer, Sydney Gottlieb, but then he hands it off to that Aldrich guy, you mentioned. So it's just a mess.

Roseberry's basically, Polansky. Oh, yeah. The 60s, like, at this point in 66, is NASA still like an ocean exploration company? Because they, oh, no, no, well, no, here's the thing, you know, when Kennedy did his whole inaugural speech, she's like, we're going to go to the moon and all this kind of stuff. Yeah. So it was definitely on the road.

I mean, I evolved to the point that I don't believe anybody ever went near the moon ever, ever, in a million years. And actually, I had this big argument with my son saying, I don't believe in satellites. I think they're all just like high altitude balloons with, you know, these. Well, my father-in-law has a great point is if you go up a mountain, you're closer to the satellite, but then you lose. sell service. So how the fuck does that? Because it's all towers. It's all towers.

What do you think about? What do you think about nukes? Well, you know, Gordon, you know, we're talking about a fallen brother, a fallen brother Gordon a lot here. Gordon and I, particularly when he still lived in London before we moved out to Tasmania, I mean, we would just be on Skype all day. And he just was like, you know, nukes are fake. Fuck yes.

He's on nukes of fake, yeah. Like, okay, well, how do you reckon that? Well, first of all, all those films were done at Lookout Mountain. Owned by Jared Leto. No, he used to be owned by the Navy. Yeah, in Laurel. Inel Intelligence. Laurel Canyon, so there you go.

Gordon was so ahead on so many things. Like, this is like... He was so much more based than anybody realized. I know. This is like six years before anyone ever said nukes were fake. Yeah, Dr. Carlson wasn't on it yet. Right. Yes.

And he's just in private dropping stuff like that. I mean, Gordon's thing was that nukes, nukes as the super weapon there talked about are fake, but also he's like radiation is not as dangerous as they've said and that it goes away quite quickly. Yeah, same guy. Well, that was just a firebombing. Like Tokyo.

I know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I mean, I don't know enough about it to say nukes a fake, but I think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki would just fireballed. If you put the pictures up of the Tokyo firebombing with Hiroshima and Nagasaki,

it looks fucking identical. Also, it grows back beautifully. Chernobyl, same thing. Grows back, everything's fine. My theory is that the nuclear energy could give us very cheap, limitless energy and the powers that shouldn't be do not want that to happen

because all their fucking oil games that they're playing in the Straits of Hormuz and stuff are done. Because if you fire up those reactors and they go on forever, I wish you could get a car. And they're not dangerous. Not dangerous at all.

That's why they give you that program like you're talking about. It's like you think of atomic bomb. What's the first thing you think of? Fucking mushroom cloud. Explosion, all catastrophe, everyone dies. They're like, it's not worth the risk. And so now they got people believing that it's not worth the risk. And like look at these ones where they've melted down and like it creates a hole in the earth that's just toxic forever.

It goes to China. Yeah. Yeah. Whether they're real or not, it was definitely a psyop. But if you, when you look at those nuclear blasts, films with the eyes that we have today. It's the same thing

when you look at Apollo. You're just like, come on. I did this to him a little while back because the dude watched this. Have you ever seen the theories where they would have two different groups watching it and tell each group that you are watching TNT, that's the control.

You are watching a nuclear explosion and they would just switch it. So they both thought they were watching TNT or they both thought they were watching nukes. Like, cool, we found it. It's great. If you get a big enough explosion, it's going to create a mushroom cloud.

I mean, it's just, it's just physics. To Moab. My, like, cousin's daughter is actually, like, extremely smart, and she's in, she's, like, a nuclear physicist or something. So she tried to talk me off the ledge at a wedding I was at last weekend. But, I mean, she's literally buying this education, and it's, like, buying brainwashing. Oh, yeah. Or I could be completely wrong, an idiot.

Who knows? I don't know. I can, like, I can, I've been in zones where I don't believe anything. Yeah. It's, like, flatter. Like, I'm, like, flat earth. It's all been a lie. and I'll rebuild it, but then I'll like start watching Kubrick movies.

And then I'm in a labyrinth. And I can't get out. Satellites is a weird one because if you really think there's as many as they say there are, and then there's also classified satellites, and these things are spinning around as our Earth spins and orbits, and they never hit each other. There's never a problem. And then look at the temperatures.

The temperatures of the different parts of the atmosphere. They go from like negative 70 degrees to 2,000, you know, 5,000 degrees. So you're saying you have a metal, some kind of device with circuitry on it. You know, basically like cell phone like circuitry on it. And it doesn't have a problem with those extreme temperatures. I can't have my phone sitting next to me in the sun ever. In Florida on a hot day. Doesn't like the sun.

But it's all good. They had six of them fall out of the sky in 2023. So those were the satellites you saw them. It's real. We don't have to question anymore. Well, let me tell you what changed my mind on the nukes thing. You know, aside from the conversation I had with Gordon, you know, you know, watch some of that footage and all these buildings are getting blasted away, what's happening to the camera?

Nothing. Yeah. You know, like, what is the camera encased in like, you know, 10 feet of concrete? They try to say it was like way far away, but I still think there should be some shock way or something. Oh, no, it's clearly, like in the vicinity of these buildings. Yeah. And, you know, we, we understand now. Like, we didn't understand special effects. Not we, but the people didn't understand special effects. They didn't understand all these kind of things. They didn't understand parallel. view when they're looking at all this that's a hollow footage that you're clearly seeing

a sound stage. Yeah, how did they get the film cameras from Earth to the moon and back without damaging that film? They'll get it there before they landed. Right. How did they take off again from a foreign environment? They have no experience in whatsoever and get it right the first time. Yeah, yeah. It's just, but it was a sci-op. But the whole point was that the country was kind of coming and glued. You know, you had these assassinations, you had the approach,

You had the Vietnam War and it's kind of like we got to take people's minds off of all this and let's give them something that they can also Unite against do you think it could have been like one of their own messes they were cleaning up like if they're doing this mk ultra And mk.Ofton thing and I mean all this like shit kind of gets out of control and they have to bring everyone back in because the people and often think they're better than the mk ultra people they all start war and then you get fucking serial killers fucking crazy assassins I'm kind of with what are you saying maybe during war too there's just like navy cult and then that grows yeah and then we don't even know when i guess they're going to wrap this up soon or they're dead and dying you know it's a water fairing religion and i've been saying this a lot lately Scientology has not seen its day yet

I think if they get extraterrestrials to come to earth and do all this crazy sci-fi shit people are going to pick up the book of Scientology your boy um Hubbard out in the waters like that is if you had to look at that through like naval intelligence all this stuff, all of those people in Hollywood all get into Scientology. And it just seems like it's a perfect fit for like, hey, we're wrong about everything. This guy Hubbard actually figured it out. And this is our new religion. I've had people defend Scientology.

Like people you think who like, you know, I had a Scientologist's guitar teacher. Every week you would try to get me a joy. Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a little detail. We, um, we, we vacationed a couple years ago down in Point Pleasant and we went to the beach at Bayhead. and every day I would make it a point to park in front of 666 Bay Avenue. What? Is that where they're at?

No, well, that's where Harvard wrote Dionetics. Oh, okay, yeah. And he just happened to pick. But, you know, I'll tell you something. Something I'll talk with Greg about is Project Diana. Now, Project Diana was, they bounced radar signals allegedly, whether you believe it or not, off the moon. Okay.

And that was during the start of the Babylon working. Now, that was at Fort Monmouth down in Jersey. Now, who's taken over Fort Monmouth now? Three guesses who's taken over Fort Monmouth? The Netflix? Oh, you fucking get it right? Oh, nice. Oh, yeah.

No, that's not the place. Monmouth isn't the place with the Stranger Things kids, right? That's Montauk. Montau, right? Might as well be, though, right? Well, when it comes to the space stuff, there's a book by Richard Hoagland and Mike Barrett called Dark mission, which has all the symbolism encoded into the rituals of the moon landing.

I mean, calling it Apollo. Yeah, I was just going to say that. I call it stuff project. Diana's like, what are we doing here? One of Chris's best lines is, uh, it could be like one. Yeah. One of Chris's best lines is that space is an altar. Yes.

That all they're doing in space is ritual. Yes. And, uh, when you listen to people like Diana Pesolka, who's a religious professor who got embedded with some of these like military guys who, into the UFOs. She described on Sean Ryan's podcast that one of her anonymous sources is the most recent time that she was hanging out with him. He showed her pictures where they're writing the names of Greek gods on the outsides of rockets before they send them up. And she's like, oh, you're actually using this weird form of Greek that isn't even popular anymore, or form of Latin,

I should say. And then she asked him, she's like, why are you doing this? Because they, even in the photos, they would have Obama come down. and they'd have him stand in a position, say a certain line, look this way, do that. And she's like, what is this? Who's who, when you send a rocket up to space, it has a Latin name of a Roman god on it, or Greek God, what, what, who's reading that? And his reply was our sponsors. So he's basically saying there's something up there in space, whatever space is.

Like our concept of space is warped. But it's not just an empty vacuum where there's other planets. It's like maybe an ocean more, it's more akin to an ocean. With you on that. And the waters above the firmament. Yeah, exactly. Waters of noon. And it's where the spirits are more dense, I believe.

That's kind of like I just watched. Or less dense. Yeah. Space Odyssey with Andrew for the first time. And like watching that and like the whole thing is like pretty crazy. But once that dude goes into like hyper drive through all that shit, I was like, dude, this is hitting me on a level, which is too fucking freaky. And it like, I have no idea what's going on, but it's a feeling that's familiar where

like, dude, I fucking have been there before I've dealt with some shit like that. Sleep paralysis, maybe. I just want to say I met Diana Pesolko with Gordon. Oh. Yeah. She's got major milf energy.

I just need to say that. Straight up. Gordon and her did a presentation together. Gordon being an occultist, her being a religious scholar at the Guggenheim. It was one of like his things on his resume. Yeah. I mean, he loved having that on his resume.

Yeah. But her, you know, I heard, I just booked her for another interview, and I haven't read her newest book yet, but it's getting blasted online. Oh, my gosh. People are saying that it seemed, not only is the subject matter, way more about AI than it is about aliens or UFOs, but it also apparently feels written by AI in some parts. Oh, gosh, probably is. But this is, I think this is what her op was the whole time is they brought her in. They were like, let's get a religious scholar involved here and help her craft like a very popular book. Right.

And then we're going to incept her into a series of a line of thinking that takes you into the AI area. And if you're a warder with her books, like when they write the books, she thinks she's on over the target and everyone's fucking loving it. It's again, her first book is great. Her second book is eh. And what I'm hearing about her third book is like it's very bad. And people want the alien stuff.

But she's writing now about AI. Why? Because I think that this is how she was led along. I think she's a genuine person. Right. But I think she naively, they used her credentials against her, and they showed her a little bit behind the curtain, got her to write about it.

And then they're like, now we want you to write about this person and this person, and we want to go about this subject. And it's going so far off the original thing. But if you look at what Peter Thiel's all about, it is like this merging of AI thinking with alien thinking and like, we are summoning the demon and all this. Like they're trying to form,

they're trying to mainstream their cult, Or they're trying to create a religion based off the beliefs of the cult behind the curtain. Well, this is what Lucifer's technology is really about, you know, the series that I'm still working on making a book. But, you know, it's a huge story. But no, I generally believe that, that it is a cult. But it is a cult that isn't just daydreaming, that they are actually somehow connected or communicated. or in communion with ultra-terrestrial entities.

And I know probably a lot of listeners will have a huge problem with that, but I've been working on this problem for a very long time. Well, it seems the weird thing when I was listening to you guys talk yesterday and I don't know if you guys

could get back into it because it's something that like, I can't explain it because I'm not fucking smart enough but like the way people call your saintness immediately if you're saying, dude, maybe Lucifer wasn't a big

bad guy and he was actually like created human stuff like that but like going back through forever like when you guys were talking the podcast I was listening to they always every single religion that starts says these guys are Satanists they are evil do not believe in them so like yeah I don't have any time for that anymore to be honest with you it's just in order to keep any sort of group going you have to have a very strong opponent out group you know any in group needs an out group or or else not an in-group, right? I mean, you define yourself as an in-group through the out-group, which is fine as far as it goes, but it's not useful if you want to understand reality. If you want to understand what's really going on up there, you can't just boil it down to

these things. Because I'll tell you, I mean, I was raised pretty serious Christian, but it was old-school, conservative. It wasn't like fundamentalist or evangelical. And, you know, I saw, and, you know, my pastor was pretty upset about it, to be honest with you, but, you know, when the fundamentalist evangelical stuff came in, because it wasn't really, it was more political, it was more about tribalism and so on and so forth. And unfortunately, what you have now is like, okay, you know, I'm an evangelical Presbyterian,

but you're a Presbyterian evangelical. You're the devil. You're going to help. I mean, you know, like I have this, it's a joke, but it's not a joke. It's like I can't be a Christian because I don't want to spend all my time arguing with other Christians. Yeah. You know, it's just, it's so frustrating because you go on Twitter or any social media. And, you know, the Catholics are arguing with the Protestants and the Protestants are arguing with, you know, the Orthodox.

I mean, it's just this huge battle. It's just like, there's no other issues here. there's not a greater problem in our culture and our society that maybe you can just put these differences aside that most people outside your church don't think are all that important, you know? I mean, can't just put these things aside and maybe just sort of come together and form a, you know, solidarity and then, you know, solve these greater problems that we're dealing with and then worry about that stuff later. It's just like, no, it's like that's the fun. It's the fun of like, you know, I mean, even like various sects of Catholicism, you know, you know,

whether it's, you know, Latin Mass only versus, you know, Vatican. I mean, it's just, it gets to be like, come on. They're looking for differences to find out. The most tiny minutia. But the thing I like about your Lucifer's technology series is if we're going to say they're not aliens from space, they're ultra-terrestrials or like demons or some kind of spiritual entity, then we all know the story that they try to tell us. like the kind of covert story is, oh, well, these aliens sometimes crash.

And then we reverse engineer their crabs and we get technology from them. Right. And that goes back to Roswell. That goes back to ancient Greece, by the way. Well, fair, fair. That exact story, the exact story of some, you know, it was these, what were they called, the cabiieri.