Was I In A Cult? - Allison After NXIVM: “The Monster She Met. The Monster She Became.”

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

When we got the email inviting us to interview journalist Natalie Robehmed about her new CBC + Campsite Media podcast, Allison After NXIVM, we weren’t sure what to do. Talking about Allison Mack — someone who caused very real harm, including to people we’ve had on this show - is complicated. And honestly? We didn’t want to accidentally platform or sanitize that harm.But then we listened. And what we found wasn’t a redemption story. It was complexity. It was discomfort. It was a journalist tracing how someone can be both a victim and a perpetrator.In this conversation, Natalie takes us behind her interviews with Allison: childhood exploitation, Hollywood pressures, the hunger to be “the best,” and the dynamics of NXIVM’s inner circle that turned all of that into something horrifying.We’re not here to tell you how to feel about Allison Mack.But we are here to sit in the space where victimhood and violence blur -the space where a person realizes the monster they were running from is the one they learned to be.FOLLOW USFor more culty content -follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacultLISTEN TO "ALLISON AFTER NXIVM" Hear Natalie's full 7-part investigation into Allison Mack (or search Allison After NXIVM wherever you get your podcasts.SUPPORT THE SHOWIf you believe in what we’re doing - shining a light on manipulation, coercion, and the messy psychology behind it - please rate, review, and share the podcast. Want to be part of our inner circle?Join us on Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and our eternal gratitude for helping us keep these stories alive.HAVE A CULTY STORY?We’d love to hear from you - drop us a line at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. This episode discusses sexual coercion. Please listen with care. You know, I think Allison's experience of sexual exploitation at a young age,

combined with her experience in Hollywood, and this competitiveness with other girls, I think all of that led her to wanting to be the best cult member, wanting to be the best person in nexium, which also meant being the worst. You know, it meant doing the most extreme stuff to get the most validation from Keith. And that led to her ending up in prison.

Welcome to Was I an Occult. I'm Liz Ayacuzi. And I'm Tyler Mism, and we are recording this particular episode, The Day After Thanksgiving, Black Friday. However, as you recall, if you listen to last year's Thanksgiving episode, do you remember what plumbers call today, Liz? Oh, shoot. I don't. Very close. Oh, shit. It's right. Oh, right. Today, the day after Thanksgiving, is the busiest day of the year. year for plumbers and they refer to it as brown friday so there's your little post thanksgiving

conversation i'm just going to do a very awkward tangent it's all about brown friday plumbers deal you're still going i'm trying to get us on to the episode and you're just wanting to let's let the people decide raise your hand if you want more brown friday Okay, raise your hand if you want cults. All right, go ahead, Liz. So this is one of those episodes where Tyler and I had to sit with ourselves a bit because today's conversation is complicated. And honestly, it challenged both of us in, I would say, ways we didn't quite expect it to.

Correct. Yeah. So when we first got the email about this, our reaction was conflict. because today's topic is about a woman who has caused horrifying, damaging harm. And it's someone we've talked about before, someone we've talked about unfavorably, someone many of you already have very strong, very justified feelings about. And yet, the person telling this story, she's thoughtful, she's erudite, she's rigorous, and she's gone deeper into the psychology of this whole thing than almost anyone we've come across.

Today we're joined by journalist and host Natalie Robamed, whose podcast, Allison after Nexium explores the incredibly messy, uncomfortable human layers of Allison Mac. Not to excuse her, not to rehabilitate her, but just to try to understand how someone can be both harmed and harmful and how those two things can twist together in ways none of us want to believe possible. This isn't an episode about redemption. It's not an episode about sympathy. It's an episode about the very difficult question at the center of every cult that we cover. How does someone get pulled in so far that they lose themselves completely and sometimes to the point of justified harm to others? And for those who don't know, Alison Mack was the bubbly Smallville star who fell deep into Keith Reneer's orbit.

She rose fast, very fast in Xiam. She helped run Doss, the So-C-C-C-E-M-Sar. the so-called woman's empowerment group that was anything but. And she ended up in jail when the whole thing imploded. And yes, if you watched The Vow, she was the one you yelled at through your television set. If they're listening to our podcast list, there is a very, very good chance they watched the vow. I would say 99.9%. I imagine. And if you didn't, you can turn this off and go watch it and then come back.

And now Allison is out of prison. and Natalie spent weeks with her getting her side of the story. And no, again, we did not bring Natalie on because this is titillating. We brought her on to have a complicated conversation. How does this happen? This is the stuff we all need if we're going to understand how cults actually work. So take a deep breath. Open your mind.

Get a little slight clench in the stomach. You're right where we were. So please welcome the incredibly thoughtful, incredibly brave journalist Natalie Robamed, who sits down with Liz to chat about all of this. And yes, it was a wonderful long interview. We cut it down to the best parts. But there were so many great moments that we have posted the entire interview on our Patreon page for those who want a bit more. I'm so excited to have my life crucify me. I'm so excited to have this chat with you today.

Thank you for having me. My name is Natalie Robamed. I'm the host, executive producer and writer of Alison After Nexium, a new podcast from the CBC and Campside Media all about Allison Mack. This project really came to be in large part because of my. writing partner, podcast partner, Vanessa Gregoriatis, who is an EP on this show. And she had actually interviewed Allison for a story that ran in 2018. And she covered the nexium case when it was at trial. And so she was the person who sort of brought this to me and said, do you want to work on this? And it kind of went from there. And so we ended up doing the interviews with Allison together.

What was her purpose in wanting to share? So I asked her this. wanted to do this podcast because she thought about doing a documentary, but she's not comfortable being on camera now. And I think after a lifetime on camera and a lifetime of eating disorders and controlled eating and all that kind of stuff, she does not want to be looked at or perceived in that way. But she basically said, I want to just say it all aloud for myself one time because twofold. One, like, people think that I'm this sort of pervert because everything about nexium is the sex stuff. You know, it's, this is a sex cult. She was having three since this other member, like, it's all this salacious sex stuff. And she's like, people assume

I'm some sort of pervert and I just want to say it out loud and for myself so that I know I'm not crazy. And also so that as she's moving through with her life, people are going to keep asking her about this. You know, like, people will keep asking about this. And she said, I just want to say it once. And if people ask, I can say, you know what, go listen to the podcast. Like, you can hear me talk about it there. You know, I'm done talking about it.

I have to be honest, when we first got to reach out, I was like, it sounds really interesting, but I'm very hesitant to give an ex-user, like a platform to, I don't know. It's a very weird thing with the fame aspect. And it's all.

also so interesting because she wouldn't be who she was in nexium without everything that made her an actress. And I will say, like, listening to your show, it's really interesting because she's so self-possessed and so self-aware of her narcissism and where she came from. She did sort of change my opinion of her. So, yeah, I mean, I completely understand the hesitation around this story and around Allison Mac in general. And I think, like, I felt the exact same way, you know. So when this story kind of came to me, I was very skeptical wanting to talk. I was very skeptical, and I thought, why? Like, what's this for? What's the motivation? What's the sort of end point? Is she trying to get back into acting? Like, where is this going, basically? When I went and met her, I felt like there were

so many other things going on with her that made it all so much more complicated, like the fact that she is a child actor. But also the fact that she was willing to talk about the heart that she had caused and the abuse that she had brought on to other people. And you very rarely get to sit with somebody as they grapple with those questions of like, why did I do this and what led me to do this? And I actually felt like that was important and interesting to hear because from like a prevention standpoint, right? Like if we can understand why, hopefully she and many other people could not cause this harm going forward. I mean, it's very clear that she was a victim to this cultic abuse in a big way and got indoctrinated and abused quickly.

All the dots sort of connected in a new way, being an actress, being thrust into the real world, not going to college, not having like the developmental stages of life that you need as a kid to understand who you are and then getting everything you want. She got the dream, right? She got the lead on the biggest show and making all the money and flying around the world with her best friend and like all of a sudden, but I'm not happy. Why isn't this fulfilling me? And boom, enter cold. Yeah, definitely. Like you say, you know, I think she's like a lot of people who start in Hollywood very young and that she is, I would say that she's smart and like emotionally intelligent, but at least back then was not educated. I mean, she got her high school diploma early and then she moved out.

of her parents' house when she was 16 and moved to California and was living with roommates and, like, working from that age. So exactly as you say, the people who should have been her friends or her enemies, I see that as very much setting her up for a lot of the worst behavior that would happen in DOS, which was the women's only, quote unquote, sorority, but the cult within a cult of nexium where the worst stuff happened. Alison Mack took her first nexium class in 2006, and it was out of this, on Wii, this desire to sort of find something more because, as you said, she had everything she wanted and it just, she was like, is this it? Like, why do I still feel empty? And from there,

I spoke to her mom as well. And her mom said, like, she didn't dabble around on the edges. Like, she jumped fully into it. And very quickly, her mom said, Alison had the answer for everything. And the answer for everything was, Keith says, it's this. Keith says, it's that. And Allison's mom also told me, you know, her dad couldn't stand to be around her for a period because she just became insufferable because she had the answer to everything and just had this arrogance that came from having the panacea, which was naxium and Keith. There's always the promise of something in a cult, right? And then you're like, yes. It just makes sense. And she was like, I want that. And not only do I want that, I want to be the best. Like, I have to be honest, like, it always sounds really

appealing. That's the thing about cults. Like, nobody thinks they're getting into a cult. And it sounds great. And I think for DOS specifically, which was the woman's only kind of subset, DOS really came out of the rest of the nexium gendered curriculum, which was, Janesse was the women's thing. And then they had SOP, Society of Protectors for Men. I think I describe it in the podcast as like, men are from Mars, women are from Venus, like pretty traditional stuff. But at its best, it's trying to like create empathy for what somebody of another gender might be going through. But at its worst, it's really re-emphasizing some pretty misogynistic and like retrograde ideas. You know, one of the core beliefs or kind of learnings was that women are really

just sort of flighty and like do whatever they want and they like indulge themselves. And so that's where a lot of the calorie restriction came in, where it was like women don't keep their commitments. So they're just always indulging what they want to eat. So if you are actually strict and keep to a strict number of calories, like Allison was on a 500 calorie a day diet for three years, you can overcome your feminine weakness, which, like, of course, I say all this, like, dripping with sarcasm and with, like, heavy air quotes

because, like, that is not how I think about women at all. But that was at least how it was presented. And so it was like, you're going to become strong. You're going to become badass. This is going to be a group for female empowerment. And, like, that's one of the things it was so confusing and like topsy-turvy to me about this

was the fact that they thought that this was about female empowerment and Allison thought she was doing something good and yet Keith, a man, was at the top of it all and not only was it not doing something good, it was actively harming women.

Did someone say a man on top of it all? Oh, hey, Tyler. Oh, hey Liz. You're feeling left? out. I'm fine, Liz. I'm enjoying the show. Thank you for checking it. Take us to the break, Tyler. Take us to the break. We'll be right back. So when it comes to holiday gifting, I really want to give people things they'll actually love quality, timeless pieces they'll use for years. So thank goodness for quince. Quince makes premium gorgeous essentials

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Code in a cult, 25% off free shipping. hallelujah enjoy responsibly and thank you in the cloud for overseeing my holiday recovery okay we're back or i'm sorry tyler would you like that line no no no go ahead liz you're doing just great i just want to say every once in a while that i'm still here i'm still a part of the show i haven't left i'm still here nobody was worried okay we're back so just a bit of an exposition for anyone who is not familiar with nexium. This fucking cult. It was this so-called self-help group run by Keith Reneery who positioned himself as the

brilliant guru. Keith claimed that he was the most brilliant man in all of the universe, which is sort of funny because when you do watch the vow and you see that he was like a sales guy before he was the most brilliant man in the universe. What was he selling? Computer software, I don't remember what it is. I wasn't very good at that, but... No, look, it's hard for me to revere these types of individuals.

You know, I had someone the other day say Trump is smart, and I don't care. You know, I don't know if this offends you or not, but I don't believe he is smart. What he is is the greatest con man of all time. And he basically set out and said, I am going to be a great con man and figure out how to gain power in whatever way I can. And there's something you have to revere in some disgusting way about that. And with Keith Reneery, I mean, he definitely set a goal. I am going to figure out how to manipulate individuals. And he did it very, very well.

It was ugly, of course, but... Yeah, and then he took it to a very dark, horrifying place. Controlling every part of this organization, especially the women. Keith also created DOS. It was the secret master slave women's group where members had to have. hand over blackmail material, obey commands, restrict their food, and some, yes, some were even

branded, like cattle with a symbol that had his initials. What Tyler is leaving out is members, quote, members were recruited into Keith's sexual, coercive, sex dungeon. I'm glad you said it, because I don't like to use the word sex dungeon. It's weird. And Alison Mack rose high under Reneery and she helped run this thing called DOS. She recruited women into it, becoming a master herself with her own slaves

and enforced many of the rules he designed, which were mostly rape. If you just want to sum it up in one word, let's stop with all the pretty language, sexual. it's it's rape okay i'm i'm gonna define it as rape yeah it was basically his mll ms set up so that he could rape women very very skinny women with what quote unquote uh hairy bushes right all in the name of healing now frankly alison was doing horrible things in this group she was pushing women into sexual situations she was actually orchestrating some of the actions

branding of women with these so-called tattoos. So, how does this happen? And Liz, thankfully, well, she posed the question. Thank you, Liz. And this is sort of the crossroads with her and what happens, because I totally understand being indoctrinated. I understand how cults work. This is where I just honestly don't really understand it completely.

But to take it to that next step of like, okay, I've received this abuse. Now I'm going to become one of the abusers. This is what is so interesting about Allison. Yeah. And I think listening to your podcast, I got a little more insight into what it could be. And I think it's when she is deeply, horribly,

awfully sexually assaulted by Keith. Yeah. Yeah. The point that you're referring to, it was like around 2015, Allison had her first sexual experience, sexual assault, whatever phrase we want to use. It's so hard to know what language to use with this

because it all was coercive, although she thought that it was consenting at the time. With Keith, she does say essentially that she disassociated during it, and she kind of says something like, I don't know when I learned to do that, but I just learned to disappear. And, yeah, I mean, that was really intense to hear about because I think, like, we all knew that sexual coercion was a part of nexium, but hearing from Allison, how it was framed, and especially with Keith, it was suggested by another woman first, which is classic nexium, by the way, like, so much of what happened to nexium was women kind of encouraging other. It was a lot of this, like, sending somebody else to go out and do your work for you kind of thing. And Allison was encouraged to go to Keith and basically tell him that she had some sexual

locks in her relationship. And then she says to Keith, I had some things that happened to me when I was younger that weren't okay in the sexual realm. And she doesn't go into detail in the podcast, but she talks about having experienced essentially some forms of sexually exploitative behavior, both on set and in a more personal realm, which you can see would set her up for a lot of this stuff. But then there are other things that she says and does, like the way that she flits between like very sexual language and behavior and learning that sex can be a kind of currency that

you use to get men to like you and do things like that to the way that she's in turn like very sexually naive. But I think that is a core part of the story and maybe how the abuse happened was because I don't know that she understood the power that she had and the fact that she could hurt these people. Or if she did, she got off on it perhaps. And she acknowledges that as well, that there was a part of her that, like, enjoyed having power over these, like, young hot women. And that's really rough. That's rough to admit. That is not a nice thing to hear or say or, you know. That's what's so fascinating because you don't get this perspective from cult leaders, right? People ask us all the time on the show. Like, do the cult leaders, do the abusers,

do they believe the rhetoric and the dogma and the bullshit that they're, espousing or do they get off on it? Like, how does Allison look at it now? Did she still feel disassociated from it? Or is she able to really see it? I think a bit of both. You know, I did not interview Keith for this project. And Keith is the real leader in this from my mind. And I don't know, based on everything I've seen and heard and read about Keith. Yeah, I don't think he has any way to understand what he did was wrong. But as with anything, it's not just one person. There's other people who are the foot soldiers or who play a part in it, whether it's by just standing by and being complicit or by actually enacting that person's plan. And I think for Alison, she has a

really hard time still wrapping her head around what she did and the fact that what she did was so hurtful to other people. Because part of her still feels, I think, like, that's not what I intended. You know, she's still stuck on what her intent was rather than what her actions were. And that was one of the things that I found most compelling in my interviews with her where I felt like if this was just a package PR tour, she would say what people wanted to hear, which is like, I'm completely sorry, I'm so sorry, I self-flagellate, just be like, I know I did wrong, I know I did wrong, I know it did wrong. And the fact that a part of her is still open about trying to wrap her head around it and trying to understand and feeling like it's so at odds with who she actually is as a person, that's what made me be like, So I actually think that you're telling the truth and that you're not just performing to me because it's not perfectly neat, you know?

It's actually not tidy. And that's complicated and difficult. Well, it's also, she's still deprogramming. Yeah. What was the most surprising thing to come out of it for you as the reporter and investigator of this personality type slash culture study?

I knew a lot about the form. forms of control within nexium already, but actually hearing Allison's day to day and what it looks like was so shocking to me in terms of the food, the sleep, and the sexual coercion that were all taking place and how all of those things were forms of control. So, as I think I already mentioned, she was on a 500 calorie a day diet. She was running six miles a day. She was doing yoga every day. She was sleeping a couple hours a night. Every hour of her day was taken up with doing courses and doing readiness drills and all this other stuff where she was managing these other women, all in quotes. And I really had not understood the lengths to which

she had been in a sexual relationship with Keith. I think I thought that it was like an occasional thing or something, but essentially Allison says that from about 2015 to 2016 for about a year, Keith had sex with her daily. And the way that that were, I know. And the way that that was framed was that it didn't bring him pleasure. This was work. This was energy work. And he would be linking certain thoughts and results with certain things that were happening within her body as it was happening.

And then debrief with her afterwards being like, you know, when you felt that or that happened, that was my. energy moving through you. And just really disturbing stuff that really sets up how the sexual part of it worked within nexium. And the other part is, I didn't know the extent how much self-harm was going on, you know? So not just in the realm of food, but also like Allison, she wore a permanent belly chain. She said she got it on Etsy, kind of like a gold one. You'd see somebody wear at Coachella or something. But she could keep it on under her clothes when she was acting. And if she ate too much, again, in quotes, ate too much, the chain would dig into her. Oh, God.

But she took it one step further, and she actually started wearing a salis, essentially a belt with sharp, this is quite graphic, sorry, listeners, a belt with sharp almost staples on the inside that would dig into her. And she would wear that as punishment if she, again, in her words, ate too much. That is, ate more than 500 calories in a day. And so that stuff, that's really, like, that's a lot. That's not one of the mill. That's pretty intense stuff.

And we didn't know about that. She admits she's a narcissist. Does she talk about that at all? Well, so I actually don't think that Allison's a narcissist. Like, I think she, like a lot of actress struggles with performativity. But also, like, I'm not a psychologist. I don't feel comfortable, like, diagnosing somebody. But Keith and Nancy, who is the prefect, the number two,

the Vanguard and Prefect, they came. to Allison and very early on in like the first or second workshop they said you're a narcissist like you're a shell of a human being psychologically and you struggle with your relationships with people and what you need to do is come to nexium and we'll help you solve that

we're the only people who have the answers classic but I think what is real is as a performer she struggled with constantly contorting who people wanted her to be you know it's like I think in the podcast I say that Allison kind of reminds me of like the theater kids

of school, you know, see me, see me, see me. Totally. So, you know, I think that's helpful for like understanding a little bit of the person that she was, but also like Keith saw that, that was something she might be insecure about and used it against her. Yeah. But at the same time was also using her success as an actress to lure people in to an axiom. And this is another thing about Allison, like not understanding her agency or her power. Like, I think she didn't really understand how famous she was. This was pre-social media, really, when she got famous. So I don't think she understood her own power and fame. And I think in many ways, that's what led her to abuse it, actually. And it also makes sense why she became, who she became

within the organization, because it scratched all of her itches, right? I am the star. I am doing this right. And Keith took her and made her the inner circle. It's like false power, right? Yeah. I think that's exactly right. Like, one of the things I've been pointing out is that Allison actually within nexium, the outer official organization, the money-making courses or whatever, she was not that high up. She was not important. She was a pet project of Kese, and she got put in charge of the source, which was like their acting curriculum. But I don't know that she was a big money maker, but you're right. It was this sort of like illusion of power when meanwhile at the top it was always Keith at the top you know it was all

Keith okay you know I I love this episode it enthralled me editing it was fantastic and fun and dark in some ways because part of it is because nexium itself you know I mean I watched both seasons of the vow like everyone else and honestly part of why people are so fascinated with nexium is because it never felt like one of those weird fringe you know hidden small cults. It had this bizarre mix of Silicon Valley language, self-help culture, and then celebrities. And celebrity, well, it changes everything. It gives a group a legitimacy that it doesn't deserve. And you can see how much more attention nexium got simply because recognizable faces were involved. And Allison, well, she was the biggest one. Her fame became a recruitment tool and a shield

for Keith. It made the whole thing seem safer. Absolutely wasn't. What really led to a lot of the abuse in nexium is, I think, a core belief of it, which was that if you are doing something uncomfortable, that is you learning. And there is something to that that is so insidious because there's a grain of truth. There is something to pushing yourself. But in nexium, the way that it was framed was like, if you are. uncomfortable, that is you growing. So, okay, you're having sex with Keith and this doesn't feel right. And you're sort of saying, uh-oh, this feels weird. No, that's your discomfort. That's your

blocks around your sexuality, around your, you're so insecure, you're so whatever, ever. You need to push past that. But I think Allison's real downfall came from applying that to other people. Yeah. And she wanted these people to grow. She was encouraging them, coercing them, and forcing them to push past those boundaries. And she says, like, that's what I went to prison for, you know? What was her opinion about, like, the master slave of it all? Yeah, so the master slave dynamic, which is what they called it, was what DOS was set up in. And so the way that it all began was Keith presented DOS to Allison as a new curriculum.

And he said that it's super intense. It's a lifelong commitment. And Allison was like, yeah, want to be really intense? Like, yeah, I'm in. and Keith basically framed it as a sort of a religious practice, right? Where it's like you will give up all of your worldly attachments or whatever else and completely supplicate yourself to your master. So you will be the slave and that is the language that they used.

I don't know that they dove too far into the historical context of slavery, especially in the U.S., that is obviously very troubling to think about, but it was framed as a religious practice. And so you're going to give up everything and just devote yourself to your master. And so Allison was one of the first eight frontline slaves, along with seven other women. And these slaves, they reported up to Keith. And they were the people who came up with Das, really. And at the start of every meeting, they had to take a naked picture together and send that to Keith, because the idea was, what are you most uncomfortable doing? Okay, being naked, all right. So to get over that, you have to take a naked picture and send it to me.

They got branded. They started wearing permanent jewelry. And then at a certain point, Keith said, okay, so in order to understand the totality of this dynamic, you need to see the other side. So you now need to become master to slaves that you recruit and have your yourself. And that is how the Allison recruiting her own slaves happened. So she had four slaves. And yeah, that's how it began.

Famous last words of every cult. And in the beginning, she had four slaves. And yeah, they actually used the term slaves. No big deal. Just go ahead and call them what they actually were. Slaves for

God's sake. Sex slaves. We'll be right back. It's officially December, which means you can officially start panicking about what the hell to get people for the holidays. So, why don't we help you make it a little easier? Aura frames. If you don't know what aura frames are, they look like real photo frames, but you can load digital photos and videos onto them. And it's great. They look seriously like high-res prints.

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Look, Liz Adam and Henry. You know, you can update your parents on your life. Why not? Looks like they only have one child. Yeah, it's actually kind of cool. And right now, they're having a deal. Yeah, for a limited time, you can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 bucks off. Aura's best-selling Carver mat frames, which were named number one by wirecutter by using the promo code in a cult at checkout.

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But, you know, right now I'm just going to chat. I'm going to tell you about a brand. I actually really do love. It's Bolin. And I mean that. I have their waffle blanket and their sheets. And every night, I get in both of them. And I love it. They just feel good. They're well made. They're soft and they look nice. Honestly, they're really, really great product. And Bowlen Branch also has pillows, which I haven't tried. But I imagine, based upon what I know, I would love them as well. Anyway, buy them. They're great. Seriously, you'll love them as much as I do, I imagine. And you can give yourself and your loved ones the most extraordinary feeling sleep. We have 25% off sitewide, plus you get free shipping and extended returns

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blankets over and out. Hey everyone, I know. We just tried to sell you stuff and now I'm going to try and sell you something else, which is the podcast itself. And keeping it alive and in this world, we love doing this and we know how important it is to so many people. I mean, we get emails all the time from folks who say the stories really help them. But look, this podcast is a ton of work. It takes nights. It takes weekends. It takes Rob away from his friends. and family and puppy and wife and the tiny slivers of free time Liz and I pretend to have. We give to this podcast, so please do us a favor on this Christmas time, this holiday season,

buy something from our sponsor, contribute to our Patreon, or just tell a few friends about it. Because unlike certain cult leaders, we don't have a pyramid scheme to fund us. Back to Liz and Natalie. Was there ever any guilt or remorse, she became a master and was doing what she's doing, or was she too gone by then? I think she was too gone. I think there were thoughts that came up of this doesn't seem right, specifically with a slave of hers that has never been publicly named, or I think she's referred to as Nicole in the court documents,

where Allison gave her slaves this seduction assignment, where they had to go to Keith and, quote, unquote, seduce him, to the extent that he would take a nude picture of their genitals. And again, the whole premise here was that, oh, it's going to make you uncomfortable, so this is you growing sexually, but then it's actually leading to them being assaulted. And so with this one instance,

it's really quite horrifying, it's quite graphic. But Allison sent this slave to, she gave her the assignment to do whatever Keith says. Keith picked her up, blindfolded her, drove her to another location, told her to get on a table naked, and somebody else performed

oral sex on her. So she was sexually assaulted. And she came back to Allison's house and she had like marks on her face from the blindfold. And the woman told her what happened. And Allison was like, whoa,

you're really brave. And then they just moved on and I think in some way where I don't know maybe this is me projecting onto it because I'm like I think I said this to Alice in my interview was like how could you not get how fucked up that was

like that was rape and I used the term in my interview with her I used the term forced oral sex to refer to what happened to that woman and Allison was like yeah you know when you said that to me yesterday I thought forced oral sex like who what nobody was doing that

but that's because I didn't think that's what was happening. But that's what was really happening. So I think that she was so far gone, she could not understand or like see outside of herself what was real. But at the same time, she went to prison. She went to prison for that. And it sounds like she still has a long way to go with deprogramming from everything. Yeah. It takes a lot of hard work to deprogram, especially for her, because then she has to really acknowledge everything. So it took her a long time to plead guilty. When Nexium blew up and the federal government got involved and she was indicted and Keith was indicted and all these people were arrested, the prosecutor, federal prosecutors

are talking to her and they're basically telling her things about Keith that would try and rupture her version of events to get her to understand that this guy is bad and doing criminal things. And she said each little thing they would tell me would be like a chink in my armor and then I would like basically hear Keith's voice and be like, no, no, no, there had to have been a good reason. It had to have been for good. And it took her so long to flip and decide to cooperate with the federal government that she actually didn't cooperate until Keith's trial had begun, which is so crazy to me. I didn't know that because you would think, all right, you're arrested. This guy's arrested.

Like, how would you not get it? You know, she was so convinced that this was all a misunderstanding. But what was interesting to me was she actually credits Lawrence Salzman with being the reason. and why she decided to plead guilty. So Lauren Salzman, who I also talked to, said that while the court case, you know, while they're in this proffering, whatever, she's talking to the government, she's reading all the stuff that was coming out from the court case. And she said in that discovery, she was able to see the transcripts of Keith's texts with various women.

And when she saw what he was doing and how he's communicating with them, she was like, this is manipulation, this is gaslighting. And when she saw that, she realized what he'd done to her. but more importantly an indictment came out that revealed that Keith had sex with an underage girl and when Lauren found that out she called

up Allison's lawyers and Lauren basically said to Allison via her lawyers Keith was having sex with this underage girl we were wrong get out and that for Allison like was one of the only things that cut through this absolute

fog where she was like okay I need to get out and it's almost so frustrating because you want to shake her. You want to be like, how could you not know? How could you not see? How could you not get it? But this is what cut through and this is what she decided to plead guilty. And she was like, I'm going to plead guilty and spend the rest of my life figuring out why. And the other thing that I think is key to this is when you do things that are so harmful to other people, it really cuts at your sense of self and your sense of goodness. Like,

I think you have to think that you're a good person to keep being alive. And Allison said, if I acknowledge that Keith was guilty, that he had done wrong, and that he wasn't altruistic, that he wasn't trying to better the world and make everyone better, then I had to acknowledge that I also had done wrong. And I also maybe had caused harm. And I think that is, that's the part, like, shit. How do you sit with the fact that you have done really horrible things and wrong things and not, Yeah, how do you live with that?

That's really hard. Where is she with Keith today? She's completely renounced. I mean, just her feelings towards him. Is there anger? Is there rage? Yeah, I think there's all of that. I think there's anger.

I think there's rage. She's done a lot of work to come out of this. But as you said, I do think she's still deprogramming. And there's part of her that is still decoupling things that Keith said that maybe had a grain of truth to them. because they're also something that like Aristotle said or whatever. You know what I mean? So what did prison give her? What did that experience do for her?

Allison is somebody who has this eternal optimism that I find like quite a little hard to relate to. But I think prison was very humbling for her. Prison is no, I don't think anybody goes to prison and says, wow, great time. I had an amazing experience. Like it is inhumane. And it is designed to be that way. It really breaks you down. And, you know, I think for Allison, like somebody who's been successful and pretty and skinny

and basically famous her whole life and working her whole life, she suddenly was in a place where there was a different currency. She still was sort of marked as different in that she was white in like a majority people of color place. And she talked about for the first time, like being identified by her race as like you talk like a white girl, like all these sorts of things that she'd never thought about, which is like a very privileged thing to never have to think about. But I think prison helped her understand a little bit her relationship with Keith with regards

to the relationship she saw between the corrections officers and the inmates themselves. And she talked about there's a power dynamic there, right? And the prison that she was in, I should say, Dublin correctional facilities in Dublin, California, actually was shut down after she left her for multiple allegations of sexual assault by correction officers on inmates. You know, her mom remembers going to visit Alison, and Alison saying something like,

Mom, so many of these women are in here because of men. They did things because of men, because men asked them to or whatever, whether it's like carrying drugs for their boyfriend or driving whatever car for their husband, like whatever it is, and then they are, getting in trouble. And I think for Allison, that helped her, like, connect something in her brain of like, oh, I'm in here because of a man, too. Like, yes, I did something wrong. I committed

a crime, but I also committed a crime because of a man. That was an important part in helping her understand what she did. And do you think she today is fully acknowledging and accepting her responsibility? Yeah, I think as much as she can with, like, still having a will to live. Like, that sounds really intense and dark, but, you know, I think she holds it as much as she can. And, you know, it's difficult. It's difficult even in doing this story

and thinking about the story. Like, I've never wanted to lose sight of the victims, of Allison's victims, and it's like, I don't expect her victims to forgive her. Like, I think some pain is just too deep. Well, no, I mean, you were saying that you don't expect them to forgive her, and on the flip side, you don't expect her to forgive Keith, right? Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

Yeah, it's such a complicated conundrum, which is probably why you wanted to investigate it. Yeah, I mean, I will say that this was a very dark story to work on. I think anybody who has lived with the nexam story for any amount of time, whether a victim or a journalist, of course, it's worse of victims. it affects you on a deep level. Like, it is not fun to think and sit and write about coercion and sexual assault. And, like, the mental manipulation really, like, fucked with me. And just learning about it is disturbing. And it makes you realize how fragile the mental landscape is

and how you have to be so careful about who you let in to your brain and to your, like, inner world. I am eternally fascinated by this story. And I think that Nexem specifically, to me, I really see it, like, as the Manson's story of our time. Just in terms of the level of control, it was these men who had a lot of women doing their bidding and doing their worst bidding. Of course, Nexum didn't end in murders, but the brandings and the sexual assault, like, those are forms of violence. And I, like, did ask Allison. I was like, do you think this would have ended up with guns, you guys hiding out in Mexico with gun?

And then she was like, she gave me, this is so, Alice, and she gave me a quote from King Lear. She was like, I just think of this quote from King Lear, that way madness lies. She's like, I can't think about that, like, that way madness lies. Like, I can't think about how far he would have gone. Because, like, they probably would have. And for anyone who doesn't remember their high school Shakespeare, that quote, that way the madness lies comes from King Lear, one of Shakespeare's darkest place. King Lear says it at the moment when everything in his life is collapsing.

He's been betrayed by his daughter's stripped of power and he's starting to lose touch with what's real. That line is basically him catching himself mid-spiral. He's looking down this mental rabbit hole, all the betrayal, all the fear, all the consequences, and he realizes that if he keeps following that thought, he'll go off the edge. He'll lose his sanity completely. So that way madness lies is Shakespeare's way of saying, if I let myself imagine how far this could go, I won't come back from it. But we'll come back after this.

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So give it a try after this episode at progressive.com. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Okay, we're back. And I don't really need to say anything here. Then don't. Then don't. I'm just feeling a little left out.

I think there's some mansplaining that needs to be mansplained. I don't know if you know what mansplaining is, but it's when a man will explain things. And so I'm in here just to tell you that when Allison pled guilty, she was sentenced to three years in a federal prison. She reported to the Federal Correctional Institute in Dublin, California. That's a women's federal facility just outside of Oakland. Was it like a Martha Stewart jail?

Uh, no, no, it's a real jail. Okay. It is not a, who's the woman that Trump just allowed, the Epstein woman that's... Nobody says her name, right? I say it terribly wrong. Jis Lane, Jelaine, Galane. Yeah, she's basically in a country club. And by the way, if you're wondering, which I know you are, Liz, so go ahead and ask.

Why is there a Dublin in California? Thanks, Liz. Let me satisfy your curiosity. Dublin, California is called Dublin, because the area was... settled in the 1800s by Irish immigrants. And so many families came from Dublin, Ireland, that the community eventually took on the name. But having been to Dublin...

Ireland. And having seen photos of Dublin, California, they're not similar. No. So given the option, should you ever be given the option, go to the Dublin and Ireland. And at the end of this episode, both Liz and I have our own little Ireland stories.

Which I know you cannot wait to hear. All right, back to you, Liz. I mean, what's interesting is not only did she go to jail and she did all these horrible things, but she also was forced out of a cult at the same time. And there's all of the trauma of that.

How does she deal with just being in the world again? Yeah, I really appreciate this point because it's a very empathetic one and one I maybe haven't thought enough about in this. But I think for Allison, like she has... very supportive family. And I think that has been key to this shattering of her world. I mean, I also think she was on house arrest for three and a half years before she went to prison. And so her world got very, very small. She had to just be there. And then she could go to community

college and I think she could go grocery shopping like once a week or something. So that was when a lot of the initial stages of grief and the anger and all that kind of stuff came out. And then And she went to prison, which was another very, like, controlled environment. And then since prison, since she was released in, like, summer 2023, it has been a slow coming out and making friends. And she got her undergrad degree from Berkeley, and now she's pursuing a master's. She met a man named Frank at a dog park who actually is a very interesting guy himself. He's a former neo-Nazi since renounced. It's now very much dedicated to a life of service, and he's heavily in recovery as well.

He's also a convicted felon, so he's done time, too. But he came out in, like, the 90s, you know, is when he sort of de-radicalized from his sort of cult, which I do think the white supremacist movement is kind of a cult in its own way. Yes, the white supremacist movement is a cult, an ugly, terrible cult, full of angry, stupid dumbasses. And if that offends you, well, Well, good. She has found somebody who can understand a little bit of the deprogramming that she's going through and also what it was like to be in a high control group.

And some scars never leave, like ones you burn into your skin. Yeah, and I actually did see her brand. She got the brand covered up with a tattoo of a lotus flower to sort of signify rebirth, reincarnation. So I went with her, and still it looked like a kind of messed up scar. Like it still was kind of a welt. It just looked like a higgledy-piggledy hieroglyph. Like it wasn't easy to discern. Even though I knew where the K&R were ostensibly,

it wasn't easy for me to discern them on her skin. But, yeah, I think that was a very meaningful thing for her to get that covered up. Now, we were, as Liz previously mentioned, very torn on dedicating an entire episode to this conversation, considering that we had a woman named Jessica Joan on our show in our very first season. Now, Jessica was a member of nexium, and at Allison's trial, she actually stood, and she read a letter directed to Allison, and she read it on our show. It's quite moving.

Here it is. Allison, I thought I was going to be angry standing here seeing you face to face. but all I am is sad. I'm sad because you had it all, but it wasn't enough. I had nothing, and you tried to break me. You tried to destroy my light. You imprisoned us, and by the grace of God we are free. And now it's your turn to be imprisoned

and feel as alone and broken as we once did. Only then can you begin to reflect on your actions and darkness in hopes that we're imprisoned. One day you see the light. Then maybe, just maybe, you can be free too. And I've only thought Allison to be a monster, personally. From everything I saw and read and assumed, I want to vilify her, I want so badly to call her names

and paint her with one broad brushstroke. And look, I still may think whatever I do about her and what she did. I think it's terrible. And, and, and we host a show about cult survivors and victims of abuse. And we understand probably more than most that she was coerced, that she was a victim, too. And that is something that is very difficult to grapple with. And whatever I think of her, I mean, it doesn't really matter because that's not what today is about. So I guess the question then becomes,

like how does someone become a monster who wasn't a monster? Yeah, I mean, and I think that's something we're all obsessed with. And I think that's part of why we're like obsessed with true crime generally. Like part of it I do think is like protective. Like so we know what to watch out for, how to not have it happen to us or something. But I also think there's part of it is like the deepest, dark, sides of ourselves where we never want to think we could do this or that this could happen to us. And yet, if it can happen to this person, could it happen to me? And I think that's where

our fascination for crime stories generally, but also for cold stories, comes from. And I think like one thing I've got from this story that I perhaps didn't understand quite so thoroughly before is just how ending up in a cult could happen to all of us. Because like I said, nobody sets out intending to be in a cult. Nobody thinks they're joining a cult. But I do think if you meet the wrong person who knows exactly how to grab your weakness and manipulate it at the wrong time in your life when you are isolated and vulnerable, like it could happen to all of us. Oh, Natalie should just host this show for us. us. Except she has our own show, I guess.

When she was saying that part, I was like, thank you for reading our mission statement. No more questions. Yeah. But going back to this question, I mean, how does a monster become a monster? I mean, the next question is, is that the same for the actual coal leaders? For the Keiths and the Warren Jeffs and the Erval de Barons?

And the Elizabeth Clare prophets and the Mel Lyman's and the Wolf Sendix and the Freddie Mears. And the Gwen Shamblans and the Tony Alamos and the Carreshes and the Qanons and the Holdemans and the Hubbard's and they on and on and on. Were those people always monsters? Or was there a point in their life where they were just broken and abused, just like the ones they in turn break and abuse?

Or? Were they actually born a monster? How do we feel today? Do we forgive her? Where do we end with her? I think that is for every person to come to their own opinion about, you know, And I would ask, I just want people to listen to it, listen to the podcast, Alison After Nexium, and decide for themselves. You know, I think there are a lot of people who will not see anything redeemable in this or there will be people who don't think that she has changed or can change.

I don't know. I mean, personally, like, I have done a couple stories at this point with people who have committed violent crimes and, like, sitting across. the table from somebody as they tell you about the time they slash somebody's face and having somebody say that to you with a dead

straight face like no remorse is different to how I felt with Allison Allison is really grappling with what she did and why she did it

and she is to my feeling like very remorseful and you know I know that there are going to be people who are like well she's an actor

she's just acting she's always acting right we all have layers of performativity you know we all have layers of people pleasing and trying to be who we think the other person wants us to be in conversation. And I do feel that she is genuinely sorry and genuinely trying to figure out how to make right and move on.

And also, like, actions speak louder than words at a certain point, you know, like, she isn't trying to get back into Hollywood. She is now doing stuff with her life that isn't sexy or glamorous or high paying. You know, she's working at two different nonprofits, helping bring arts into prisons because I think she's, She's, like, very affected by her time in jail and wants to work with incarcerated peoples. Well, also, if we took away the master slave, if we took away the abuse she was doing, and let's say she was just coercing women for Keith, I think we would be looking at her as just a victim. At the end of the day, she was manipulated into a cult. It just happened to have an added layer of violence and abuse on such a level that,

was prison worthy. You're exactly right. And this was something I was thinking about, and I talk about it in the final episode of the podcast, is however much we all like to think we wouldn't, at some point, we were all going to hurt another person. And it's highly unlikely it will be as extreme as the hurt that Allison caused, but we're all going to do something, like break somebody's heart or scar our kids mentally with something we don't even remember. But it's what we do, at least I think, to make up for that, that is what matters. And of course, we have to try not to do it in the first place. And I think that's part of understanding Allison's paused from like a hurt people perspective,

not as explanation, not as a way to excuse this, but to just sort of say like, okay, let me examine the ways that I've been hurt so that I don't perpetuate this onto somebody else. But then if you have actually already hurt people like, yeah, how do you, how do you make it right? How do you make up for it? And I think you apologize. You'd be remorseful. You'd try to make it right. And you move forward with better actions, you know.

And for Allison, I guess we will see, right? Absolutely. She's still so fresh. And what's next for you? What are you diving into next? Hopefully like a story about puppies or something. No. No, I am going to continue co-hosting my other podcast infamous.

It's all about various scandals and we release new episodes weekly. But I really am so grateful to have learned so much about cults and nexam specifically. And like, I've really enjoyed talking to you and other people who have this deep understanding because it is such a phenomenon and one that touches so many of us, even if we don't think that it does, you know? This has been great. Thank you for everything. So remind us how and where and plug the show. Okay, yes, absolutely. So the podcast is called Allison After Nexium, and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. So there you have it. There's black and white, but most of life is actually lived in the gray.

We said it at the top. We were conflicted about doing this episode, and we still hold that conflict, and we think we should hold it. Because episodes like this are asking us to sit in two truths at once. A person can be a victim. and also be a person who can do harm. And that doesn't cancel out accountability or the pain of survivors or the very real consequences of their actions. But it does remind us that black and white thinking is how cults win.

And nuance. That's how we learn. And that's why we brought Natalie on. Not to absolve anyone or soften anything, but to understand the mechanisms that create harm in an even deeper way than perhaps we understood them before. So wherever you land on that, Allison Mack, after listening to this, you may be conflicted or angry or empathetic or unchanged. Well, that's valid, truly.

There is no correct emotional conclusion here. Except maybe this. Harm is harm. And healing for everyone involved is work. You know, one thing is likely that Allison won't hear this particular episode because what I found interesting that Natalie mentioned is that Allison hasn't watched any of the documentaries about. nexium or read any of the books or listen to any podcasts or read any articles she is completely oblivious which is unlike all of you dear listeners yes most assuredly big thank you to Natalie for bringing such courage honesty and complexity to this

conversation I really enjoyed speaking with you Natalie and if this episode for you listeners did nothing but just strengthen your critical thinking then I say we did job, Tyler. Thank you all for your support of this show and all that it takes to make it happen. We truly appreciate it. And if you want to support this show directly, you can join, as I mentioned, our Patreon. Thank you to this week's new member, Heidi, and I'm going to have Liz say it because she's Italian.

I don't actually know if I'm saying this right, but Coach Amiglio. It sounds really nice. I'm going to take Sandra Davis and Suzanne Smith. I got those ones. Good job, white boy. Thank you. And we'll be back with a yoga story that will stretch your mind, figuratively speaking. When these women were being assaulted for decades and decades and decades, what were the men doing?

Nobody asks that because men's behavior is considered neutral. And what's interesting is that when I saw that happening and I knew it was wrong, I questioned myself. I didn't question the system. Was I in a cult is written, hosted, produced. And mastered by Tyler, the master, mesum, and Liz. The master's master. Liz slave Iakousy. And Rob Pera, he does our sound mixing.

and weekend work. He's our most loyal. He's our cult celebrity. And Tyler really wanted to regale you with our Dublin stories, so here they are. I have a really good Dublin, Ireland story. You told it. Oh, I've already done it again. Yeah, it's a great story.

It's a great story. Go tell it again. People want to know. It's a great story. I went to Bono's Bar. I was studying abroad in college, drinking gold slager shots at various bars beforehand. There's a long staircase at Bono's Bar. I don't know if this is true.

This was true many, many, many moons ago. And I get to the top, I'm talking with my buddy, and all of a sudden, and I just eat shit. It's like 50 stairs. Just eat shit at the end. My friend's like, are you laughing or crying? And I'm like, I don't know. And then there's a woman at the top of the stairs, and she just looks down and she goes,

Welcome to Ireland. I love it. I love it. All right, here's my Ireland story. So I was on the film festival circuit with my first film, Sons of Perdition, and I was completely broke. I had no money, but we had just signed a deal with Oprah. Fucking Oprah bought our movie, right? And it'd be, Oprah.

Anyways, it just took months. The contracting and everything took months. But I was on the film festival circuit, and I had just flown from Italy to Ireland and Dublin. And I had just a little bit of money. Like, I had just some coins and a few things, a few euros that would last me for a while. And I knew it could last me at least a couple days. I was in Ireland. And I landed. I took a cab. And the guy was so fantastic. The cab driver was so nice and happy. And we're just having a really great conversation. And he dropped me off of my hotel. And then I realized I left my iPhone

in the taxi. And the hotel guy was like, you're never getting your iPhone back, dude. Those are worth a lot of money here. They're never going to see it again. And so I was a little upset about it. And I didn't have a way to even buy an iPhone or anything at the time. I had no money. I was broke. The next morning, the guy comes back with my iPhone. And I realized, I looked it up. You could have sold my iPhone for $1,000 or something.

And I was so happy. And it also proves that, you know, because I was such a nice guy and we were having a great time, and I conversed with him. He remembered me and he wanted to bring my iPhone back. Anyways, I gave him basically all my money. I was like, I appreciate it. Here is my money. I had some coins. I had enough for a coffee and a bag.

bagel. Not a bagel. I had a couple. That was a croissant or whatever. Anyways, so I just had no money. And I walked around Ireland for a day and a half with no money, hungry, cold, but just looking at the beautiful things. I'd go in a bar and I'd sit and I'd listen to this Irish music. And then my partner called me and she goes, the money hit the account. And I ran to a bank and I looked and there was six figures in my account, which there's never been six figures again in my account. But At one time, there was six figures in my account and I pulled out a chunk and I went to a bar and I got corned beef, cabbage, and mashed potatoes and a cold Guinness. And it was the best fucking meal I've ever had in my life. I thought you were going to say then you went and bought

the guy an iPhone and went back and gave it to him. No. No, I bought corned beef and cabbage and it was fantastic. And then you converted him to Mormonism. That's where I wanted the story to end, Tyler. that's a great story I want to open my bank account and just see six figures in it tomorrow dear God please it was nice I think the best meals usually come

from traveling it feels like for some reason you can have a meal in your neighborhood and it's good but it just tastes better when you're an Amsterdam or whatever maybe McDonald's in Europe tastes divine the macdough the macdough Irish McDonald's

Ireland has this law where all the food at restaurants have to come within a local proximity so even McDonald's has to abide by it so it's local fresh beef and potatoes from Ireland for their fries as opposed to cardboard and polyester recycled polyester that goes into the

quote beef in America the recycled paper that comes from hamburgers. I would rather them recycle, you know, styrofoam and use it. Put it in a McDonald's burger. I'm sure it's more healthy. He's more filling. Hi, I'm Jesse Prey. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative-driven, and deeply researched. Perfect for the true crime officinados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore,

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