Was I In A Cult? - Amway: "Sleep is for Sissies... and Diamonds'

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

At 21, Stephanie Vaughn wanted to make some extra money. Then she won a "raffle" at her gym for a free case of energy drinks. Lucky her, that free case won her entry into one of the biggest and most influential MLMs in the world...  AMWAY. And the Amway lead her to the LTD, the Amway-affiliated training organization Stephanie says would eventually take over nearly every part of her life. For nine years, Stephanie chased the promise of becoming a "Diamond": financial freedom, early retirement, and the life she was told was waiting for her if she just worked hard enough. Instead she endured control on every level, including how much she slept, when she could visit family and even... who she was allowed to love.    FOLLOW STEPHANIE Instagram: @steph.vaughan TikTok: @steph.vaughan FOLLOW US Instagram & TikTok: @wasiinacult SUPPORT THE SHOW Patreon: patreon.com/wasiinacult HAVE A CULTY STORY? [e-mail] SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! They keep the show free! BOLL & BRANCH — Buttery-soft organic cotton sheets that sleep cool and get softer every wash. 15% OFF + free shipping · code CULT https://bollandbranch.com/cult ZENNI — Cute, affordable prescription glasses & sunnies you'll want in every style. 15% OFF + free shipping ($65+) · code PODCAST15 https://zenni.com/podcast LARINECO — Craveable chewing gum that actually makes your teeth stronger. 50% OFF · code WASIINACULT https://buylarine.com/wasiinacult SMILESET — A straighter smile from your couch, for a fraction of the cost of braces. Extra DISCOUNT! (under $1,200) smileset.com/wasiinacult   QUINCE — Designer-quality cashmere and more at prices that feel like a steal. Free shipping + 365-day returns https://quince.com/cult

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of Lipson or its affiliates. Guest accounts or personal recollections shared from their own perspectives. References to specific individuals, organizations, or groups are presented as commentary, opinion, and personal experience and should not be interpreted as definitive statement of fact. This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The overlining thought process in that business was if you are getting more than four hours of sleep a night, then you're just a wuss. We would say like sleep is for cissies and diamonds, which diamond is a level in Amway. Like once you're a diamond, then you can sleep.

Before that, what are you doing? Welcome back to this show. Was I in a cult? I'm Lizzie. Welcome back, everybody. And over here, I'm Tyler Meesam over here. here. Now, before we start, we have to let you, our devoted listeners, know that we have had a number of our episodes pulled from our back catalog by Spotify. Yes. It is true. It is true.

And it was kind of a surprise to us. We didn't like it, but it is because of music. Apparently, we can't just put any kind of music willy-nilly into our podcasts. I always trust in you. Tyler, the doc maker, who says this is fair use? Most of the time... That everything we did was legal? Most of the time it was fair use. Look, they're not listening to every one of our podcasts and saying, this is in

reference to a title. There's a lot of times. Most of the times, we use a song. It's because we're referencing it. We did an entire episode about Fleetwood Mac. We referenced each song and used it. So they're not listening to it with that in mind. They're running it through AI and saying,

oh, piece of music. Pull the whole thing. off. So that being said, they pulled a lot of our episodes off, which is sad for everyone involved. I'll just put my two cents in and say, I've been doing podcast stuff professionally for like 13 years, and I've played it real fast and loose with licensed music, and it's never, ever triggered a red flag in the podcast world. I'm not against it because, look, there is a reason why I don't want people stealing my work, and we shouldn't steal other people's works. There is a reason why they're licensed and synchronized. rights. But when you're referencing a song or something in particular to that song and or artists, and it is under the auspice of fair use, it should be taken into account, but it isn't.

So that being said, going forward, we likely won't use as much music as we have in the past, which is sad. But we are working on getting those episodes back up very soon. Or Rob, I should say, is working on getting those episodes back up very soon. Yeah. Without all of the beautiful music that went along with it. Or if you want to hear those episodes, they're still up on Apple, on Amazon, everywhere else. Just don't use Spotify. Most of our listeners are Spotify listeners, so we should say that.

They should change their ways for me. So with that, today we dive back into the world. world of MLMs, multi-level marketing schemes, as I like to call them. Yes, multi-level marketing schemes. I hate MLMs. These entities continue to find loopholes to stay alive. Somehow, I don't get it. Like, with all of the knowledge there is about how MLMs are terrible and cults and use people and ruin people, I just don't get it. How are they all still going? I mean, yes, Liz, technically MLMs aren't illegal. It's pyramid schemes that are illegal.

Right, because there are so many legitimate MLMs out there. There are MLMs that operate legally, right? Mm-hmm. Show me one. Point to one, Tyler. Show me a legitimate MLM. And I'll introduce you to Bigfoot. We are today talking about arguably the most influential MLM

MLM of them all. Amway, the granddaddy of all MLMs, basically. I think Tupperware was the only one that came before Amway. Yeah. Now, we have covered MLMs on the show before. We've done a couple of them, and they are very culty, and we found them to be very culty. However, in looking at this one and listening to it and editing it, I was blown away. I was shocked at the amount of cultiness that came from Amway. So Amway was founded in 1959. It became one of the largest MLMs in the world and basically helped pave the way for the MLMs we all know and love today. Well, love is a bit of a strong word. It's not the one I would choose.

I guess that we all know and hate today then. Well, yeah, but not everyone hates MLMs, Liz. I do. But people love them because they seem to continue signing up for them. In 2024, the direct selling industry, which includes MLMs, said that 5.4 million Americans were selling products as, quote, independent representatives. And a 2024 FTC review of 70 MLM income disclosures found that the vast majority of participants in these, quote, companies made $1,000 or less per year.

And that's before expenses. But they continue to grow, possibly because of their cult-like recruitment tactics shared by our guest today, Stephanie Vaughn. Stephanie spent nine years inside of Amway. Yeah, she joined at 21, simply looking for a way to make a little extra money. Yet somehow she ended up in a world where her mentors had opinions about basically everything, including the length of her gym shorts. Pish-posh, the length of her gym shorts. Wait until we get to dating.

Unbelievable. Crazy. Jim shorts is the least concerning element of this particular story. So with that, please welcome today's wonderful guest. Okay, so my name is Stephanie Vaughn. I am 32 years old. I live in Texas, and I am a mom of three daughters. I'm on the show because when I was 21 years old, I got started in an MLM that seemed totally innocent.

And it wasn't until nine years after being a part of that that I realized that I had been in a cult for all that time. I was the first one born in the United States. Both of my parents were born in Costa Rica. And I grew up in a town called Garland, Texas. And then when I was about 13, my parents divorced. I totally switched towns. And it was in the middle of middle school, too. So it was like such a hard time to make new friends and all that.

Growing up, I just never wanted to like work for someone else forever. So I knew college wasn't like the answer. But coming out of high school, I was like, okay, I need to do something because I need to move out of my parents' house. So I ended up going to dental assisting school. I got my degree in that. I started working for a local dentist. And I moved out with my best friend who I met at Sonic.

I was actively looking for like something I can do to make more money. But I was working my 9 to 5 and then after that I would go straight to the gym. And then whenever I walked into my gym, there was a couple at the front that had the table. and they were giving out free samples of their energy drinks. And I remember, like, I drank one because I was like, oh, yeah, sounds good. But then the lady was like, oh, we're also doing a raffle. Like, you should enter to win. If you win, you can get this free case of excess, which is their energy drinks.

And I remember looking at her and I was like, that's okay. I never win anything. And she looked at me so, like, intensely. And she was like, well, you never know. So I just like put my info down, my name, my number, put it in the box. About two weeks later, she calls me and she was like, it's so funny, you said you never win anything because guess what, you won. And I was so shocked because I genuinely never went anything when I do stuff like that.

Of course she won because here's the catch everybody wins. Why? Because it wasn't really a raffle. It was a lead generation form. And Liz, tell them what they won. Getting recruited into Amway. such a lucky gal. You win!

So I meet up with her to get this case of energy drinks. I remember, it was like 20 in a box, but I remember drinking one for lunch, like every single day. And then I remember her calling me again. I was like, oh, is she made to call me? Like, I already got my stuff, so I don't know. She, yeah, then proceeds to set me up. I was like, yes, I'm looking for an extra way to.

make money. And she didn't really explain anything on the phone because I didn't ask questions. So we set up a meeting at Starbucks. So in my mind, I'm interviewing to get hired to do this job. And then they had like a tablet that they went through kind of a slideshow with me. They were explaining the whole Amway business plan. The bonus structure, there's points and just like all the businessy stuff that I'm not really a details person. And I was like genuinely just like, yeah, you said you're going to help me make money, tell me what to do. I'll do that. I had never heard of Amway before. I had never heard of an MLM before. I had never even heard the word pyramid scheme because my parents didn't speak English and I learned English just by going to school. I felt like I didn't have a lot of guidance in my life. And so bring me an MLM. Yeah, I had no idea. I basically just signed up, registered my Amway business, registered my LTD business. Got all the apps. There's a lot of apps. So they have a communication app. where it's basically like email where all the team communicates with each other.

And then there was an audio app and it had thousands and thousands of podcasts that you can listen to on this app. And then right after I registered, I looked it up and I got really scared. Like stuff about it being a pyramid scheme. I remember on the internet, the Amway people are called Ambots. Like you're basically a robot. And I remember thinking, what did I just get in? And at that point, I had built a pretty good friendship with my mentors. Like, we were together every single day.

And so I remember after being scared for a while about what I had just read on the internet, I decided, okay, these are just negative people that were not successful in Amway that quit that are now writing negative reviews and stuff. So I'm just going to never look something up again. I went to one of these information sessions. And honestly, when I walked in the room, there was people that were my age. There was people that were even younger than me. There was people that are way older

that had been doing this for like 40 years. But mainly it was a really high energy environment that was fun in a community. And I was like, oh, great. Like, I love people. I love friends. Like, this is going to be fun. Like, it's something I can be a part of.

So whenever I got started, the way they were doing things, they were explaining the whole Amway business plan. And then it's a little bit confusing, so I'll try to explain it. So Amway has everything under the sun. really. We always said, show me your laundry room, your bedroom, and your kitchen. And I can show you how to be a millionaire. Cleaning products, laundry detergent, stain removers. There was beauty,

so makeup, protein shakes, protein bars, nutrition bars, energy drinks, vitamins and supplements, so many different vitamins. So Amway sells basically everything you might ordinarily buy at your local grocery store or Target. Except in Amway, buying shampoo isn't merely buying shampoo. Poo, every product comes with points. And those points determine your bonuses, your rank and increasingly your status within the group. In Amway, it's like silver is you hit 7,500 points for one month, then you're silver. Platinum is you hit 7500 points for six months, then you're a platinum. Q12 platinum is you hit 12 out of 12 months, 7,500 points in your team.

That's when you get the bonus. So once you've helped three people in your downline hit platinum, then you, you, are considered an emerald. And emerald is where I would say these people are actually making money and not spending more than they're making. But the lifestyle that everybody was reaching for was like this diamond lifestyle, which diamond is one of the higher levels in Amway. And then there's double diamond, triple diamond crown ambassador. The emeralds and above are making good money from Amway. They would make, I don't know, maybe like 60 figures and above. So there is Amway, the corporation that has been around since

1959 or something. They have business in over 100 different countries and territories. They are the number one in direct sales. Amway became one of the largest MLMs in the world and in 1979, this was a turning point for

MLMs, it landed in front of the FTC. It was accused of being an illegal pyramid scheme. But Amway won. The FTC said it was not an illegal pyramid. scheme based off of all of the facts of that particular case. Why? Because Amway sold actual products. They tied its bonuses to product sales and had rules

supposedly preventing people from buying, you know, garages full of detergent that they could never sell. And thus, the MLM playbook was essentially born, put some shampoo inside the pyramid. Add a few anti-p pyramid rules. And voila, legally it may no longer be a pyramid. Even if everybody inside it was desperately trying to climb. to the top of said non-pyramid. Yeah, non-pyramid. And that decision has now helped pave the way for the crazed MLM explosion that we are still living through or suffering through, I should say, today. But selling products wasn't the only business opportunity inside of Amway.

No. Some distributors discovered another very promising customer base, and that is other Amway distributors. Yeah. They just added another product that they could. sell them and that product was the secret to succeeding at Amway. And then forever ago, there was Amway business owners that spend off and started their own education system. And the education system is where the true cult really lies. Their whole thing is, I'm going to teach you how to be a successful Amway business owner. So today, there is five main education systems that basically Amway recognizes as an approved provider is what it's called. The one I was a part of is called LTD,

which stands for leadership team development. You can find an LTD meeting going on once a week at least. So any major city, LTD has probably about 20,000 people that are part of it. Yeah, if you really look at it, the education system is the actual illegal pyramid. People say Amway's a legal pyramid, but as long as they have a certain amount of customers, then the FTC considers them legal.

But whenever you look at the education system, there's no product or service. There's just money because we had to pay $250 a month to be a part of the education system. That money is split up to the leaders at the top. Okay, so this is important and it's quite confusing. It was to us, so we're going to try to explain it the best we can because Stephanie is talking about two different businesses here, okay?

So Amway is the MLM that we all know. It's where the products, the recruits, the recruiting, the points, and the bonuses all come from. Yes, now, LTD, which is leadership team development, is a separate for-profit company run by Amway business owners. It sells training specifically to Amway distributors. Many times MLMs will keep all of these things in-house. So with Amway, how did a second business get wrapped around the first business to begin with?

Yeah, so Amway distributors are called independent business owners, or IBOs. MLMs, they do love acronyms, hence MLMs. It's a fancy word, though, independent business owners to make the role sound legit. It's also independent, so they can skirt work guidelines and laws. But traditionally, when you recruit people underneath you as an IBO, part of your job is to train and mentor your downline.

But some of those downlines over time, from being so popular, became incredibly, enormous. So one person couldn't possibly train 900 people below them. So successful Amway distributors created companies that could provide all of that training at scale. Selling meetings, books, audio recordings, conferences, and mentorship. All supposedly teaching you how to get rich at selling, of course, Amway. Amway. Now eventually Amway established a system to authorize these outside training companies and they're called, quote, approved providers, possibly called APs, is what I'm assuming they would shorten them to. And LTD is OOT, one of them.

So you spend money on the Amway business and then you spend more money on another business that's teaching you how to succeed in the other business. Totally makes lots of sense. Yes. And because these training companies are for profit, The people selling all of that wisdom can make money from it as well. You don't say. And Amway says, of course, the additional paid training is what, everyone, optional. Optional. You don't have to.

It's optional. But in Stephanie's world, these conferences weren't optional. Meetings aren't optional. And eventually, practically nothing in her life felt optional. Amway was the business she joined, but LTT becomes the system that she lived in. My mentors were in Houston. So they say put every single person that you know down on this list, even if you've never talked to them before, take out your yearbooks, every single person needs to go on this list. So I made this huge list of people all the while being scared like, are they going to reach out to these people?

That's weird. But we would meet up twice a week and then we'd go through this. list. I had such a huge list of people that pretty early on, I had about 10 people on my team just from doing this. And I hadn't done anything. And I was making maybe $1,000 a month. So I was like, this is a pretty good business. Okay, so this is how they get you. Yes, Stephanie's 21 years old. She's barely started. And she's already got 10 people beneath her and has a thousand dollar paycheck coming in. Yeah, which from where she's sitting, it looks like proof.

Proof this business works. This is cool. This is great. There's just one number she hasn't yet started paying attention to. Right. And that number would be how much it's going to cost her to make said money. To be a part of LTD was $250 a month to have unlimited access to all the audios. Or you can pay like $80 a month to be on the basic subscription.

and then you pay like $10 an audio or something like that. We called it at LTT University, so yes, we thought it was like a college degree. And we had meetings once a week that were like $10 a person. We had conferences quarterly plus one extra one in the fall that were I think like $100 a ticket. But then you had to pay for travel and hotel. that was only making like $2,000 or $2,500 at my dental assisting job a month. And a thousand of that was going towards products, just buying shit that I didn't even need anymore because I bought the same stuff last month.

But like, I need the points. The standard was 300 points, which equals about $1,000. And sure, you can do less, but you're not going to be like considered a leader or be like in the inner circle. And my personality, I'm like, I'm either going to be like at the top of this or I'm not doing this at all. I really look back and I'm like, how the hell did I afford it? Oh, how I afforded it was I screwed my roommate over.

And as soon as we signed our second year lease for our house, literally a month later, I was like, I'm moving out because I need to be able to afford my business. So I'm going to move back in with my parents. And I just left her. We stopped being friends. And I guess I was just so brainwashed. I did not care. Hey everyone, we are back.

I know we just sold you a lot of stuff and all of which you're going to most likely purchase. But don't buy all of it because save $5 because I'll tell you why, because my long-awaited feature documentary called If These Walls Could Rock, which looks at the Sunset Marquis Hotel and it's filled with rock stars. can't play you any of the music from said rock stars, but I assure you there's music in there and musicians. It's a great film. It is available on Apple.

It is available on Amazon, but it's also available on if these walls could rock.com where you, if you enter promo code cult, you save a buck. That's a full dollar. And you can take that dollar and spend it at Bowen Branch. Everybody wins. Who knew the word cult would be such a valuable word for so many discounts?

Really? Really. People have saved money because of the word cult, which is good because of cults. Yeah, they spend a lot of money. With that, shall we get back to Stephanie? Back to Stephanie, please. You got so many kudos for being quote unquote coachable, which just means you do whatever your mentors tell you to do and you're like, don't ask questions, you just do it. And now looking back, I'm like, it just means you're agreeable, you're like a sheep. Yeah, it started out so innocent. It's like little by little.

I feel like they say certain things to like test how you're going to respond. And if you respond well, then it's like, okay, let me see what other big thing I can suggest they do just to see if they do it, like to see how much control I have over them. So yeah, since I went to the same gym as my mentors, like I remember getting pulled aside and being told I can. can't wear such short shorts to the gym. So I remember switching out my entire wardrobe. I just was not even dressing like myself anymore. I had a nose ring. I had to take out. And if people had crazy colored hair, they were always suggested to change it to like a normal neutral color hair. And it was always from the perspective of be as vanilla as possible so that you can relate to the most amount of people to be able to recruit them. So this is literally how we recruited people

was we would start conversation with them. Then usually they'd be like, what do you do for work? We had to have our elevator speech, like, so intact. And it was basically like, I work as a dental assistant, but a few years ago I got connected to a couple that retired young. And now they're teaching me how to do the same thing, so I don't have to work forever. And I can be with my kids more.

So if somebody is like, I want to do that, you know, then our next thing was like, I might be able to get you in touch with them. But honestly, they are really busy. They have a lot of people that they're currently mentoring, so I don't know if they're really taking anybody else on. So I would get this person's number. I would wait a couple days.

And then I'd call them and be like, hey, guess what? Like, I was able to bring up your name in conversation. They said that they are not really looking for anybody right now, but they would be open to just having a conversation with you. So what does your schedule look like? And I can tell them. And I would set up a meeting between them or if it was me doing the meeting, I would be like, they're honestly so busy.

they want me to do a pre-qualify an interview with you. And then from there, if it goes, well, I might be able to get you connected with them. All right, let's stop here for a moment because this recruitment tactic is, first off, it's just tacky. Most importantly, it's tacky. But secondly, it's remarkably dishonest. Yeah, they're not too busy. These mentors, they're not carefully selecting a handful of promising entrepreneurs. They want recruits.

They want recruits. They want all of them. And to do that, they manufactured scarcity. They dangled the lifestyle. They pretended access to it was extremely limited. And then they made the person wait for several days. Anytime you create scarcity or, like, exclusivity, people are like, I must have it.

We are simple folks, humans. We're easily let along. We don't want to miss out on anything more so than ever, I think. And if you can say, well, we don't really want you. even though they do want you. That's all we want. Yeah, then we have to prove, oh, well, what do you mean you don't want me?

Of course you want me. Let me prove to you. How much you want me. It just continues to work over and over. Right. Somehow against all odds, we have found room for one more person, you. Oh, no.

But they don't, this tactic is not limited to MLMs. You find it all the time, you know, especially with business coaches, investment gurus, expensive masterminds, self-help groups, and yeah, Colts, but those people will be borrowing tactics from Colts. Yeah, so listen, everyone, if somebody's trying to sell you something while making you feel like you need to audition for the privilege

of giving them your money, just be wary. Just be very wary. Or run. Or run. Or give it a day. Or slow down and say, okay, can I go home and research it, maybe? And then I'll come back before I sign on the line that is dotted. Yeah, it makes a sales pitch feel like admission to a very exclusive school.

Yeah, which is kind of fitting because they said that the training program was called LTD University, home of the fighting bankruptcies. Yet it offers no degree or accreditation. But what they did have is a tuition and required reading and a bookstore. More than happy to take the money from these IBOs. Intense bullshit operators. Nice. Yes, LTT has a book list, and LTT sold these books. You had to read whatever book.

Your specific mentor wants you to read at that time. Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill, the Go-Giver, anything you would find under the personal growth section at a bookstore. And our slogan was, if you're moving, you're listening, if you're sitting, you're reading. Yeah, people would go as far to say, like, if you're out of red light, like, you better be reading. The rules were like listen to at least one to three audios on a daily basis. So there was so many different tapes for different purposes. So there was like, I just need some motivation today.

Or there was like how to be better at talking to people. The ones that were like people crying on stage about like, this is how broken I was before I found this team. You know, we had divorce papers on the table. And then we found this team and now I'll look at our marriage today. And there's a purpose behind every single time you stick out your hand to shake somebody, hand, there's a purpose behind that. So it's just like this super emotional mission that you're just a part of. Okay, who wants to hear some Amway audio tracks? Oh, oh, me, me, me, me, me, pick me, please. Here's a little taste of what you're paying 10 bucks a pot for.

That is all you need is focus on what you can do. What can you do? Do it then. God'll do the rest. That's all you need. See, friends, you have enough. You have enough. But in order to have it, have got to let go of your past, forgive, forget it. I pray that this weekend, you forgive and forget your past. This is the first day of the rest of your life. The past is gone.

I'll remember the lesson. I'm going to forget the experience. I no longer feel bad about asking people to give a few bucks for our show on Patreon. I got started in November, and the first major conference that LTD had was in January. These conferences are like, this is it.

It's not a question of, if you're going to go. Everybody goes to these. So really there was like zero Amway talk at these conferences. They were all about people's lives were changed from being a part of this team. Their relationships got better. Their marriages are thriving. They're not suicidal anymore, like very emotional. And so you left these conferences really feeling like there's such a bigger purpose here than just the products. And I remember being invited to go like to a Sunday morning at the conference to a little church service. I was not really religious, but I went anyways because everybody else was going. So I just kind of sat there, watched everybody

worshipped, watched the whole thing. Second conference, same thing on a Sunday morning. Third conference, same thing. Fourth conference. It was like, come down to the altar if you want to give your life to Jesus. I went down there. So it was like pretty much a year of being in this thing that went from being not spiritual, not religious at all, to now I have given my life to Jesus. and I'm a Christian and now they can really use the Bible and the religious aspect to control you so much more, so much more to where now it really becomes like you were giving this vehicle from God to help people get saved. Now I'm helping people get to heaven. This is where God wants me. And we would see like people that we brought in go and get saved on a Sunday morning. And so we were

tangibly seen these people that we met at Target or wherever give their life to Jesus because they would never go on their own. Like for me before I was like, you would never catch me there. I didn't have good experiences with Christians in my life. I thought they're very judgmental and stuff, which is so funny because that's exactly who I became. And that's how it becomes so much more culty from like even just the surface level. Welcome back. We're excited to announce a brand new. way that you are listeners can listen to was I in a cult? Right.

It's very exciting. See, under our traditional model, you would listen to the podcast for free, which is fine, but frankly, it demonstrated a troubling lack of entrepreneurial vision on your part. So now you can purchase one episode for $10 or you can subscribe to our complete audio system for only $80 a month. But that's really not everything because it's. It's not really just a podcast subscription. This, my friends, is a business opportunity.

That's right. If you convince three friends to subscribe as well, you become a silver listener. A silver listener. And if you convince more friends, if they convince three friends, then you become a platinum listener. And once everyone has recruited enough people, you can finally reach the highest level. Diamond ears. But you will need to move quickly because we are currently only accepting a very limited amount of these new listenerships.

It's true, but listen, look, the good news is I mentioned your name to Liz, and she may be willing to squeeze you in. I'm extremely busy, Tyler. She's extremely busy. So here's what you should do. Put down your phone number, the names of everyone you've met since elementary school,

and $1,000, and you just might maybe be a part of our podcast. Maybe. Should we tell them about the Westinac called laundry detergent? Definitely. I can't wait till I'm at Diamond Ears someday. So, okay, the way I met my husband was I was recruiting people on LinkedIn and I met this random guy and we had that first interview and then we set up a second interview at Corner Bakery and then it was time for the third interview which was you come out and meet my mentors, you meet the team, you go to this presentation. And basically he did the whole interview process. He got an awesome. offer from the team, quote unquote offer, from our team. I was like, congratulations.

You got accepted to be a part of our team. So he was sponsored by me. So he was directly below me. So then we got to spend a lot of time around each other. So long story short, we figured out we liked each other. Are we allowed to date or not? What do we do with this? Well, what do you do with this?

Easy. Yeah, it's easy. You like someone. You like each other. You go on a date. You have coffee. You meet and you talk, right? It's easy.

Except one thing. That's right. I forgot they're in a cult. There are specific rules that you can't date without your mentor's permission. Because what if they had different mentors than you? It's very encouraged that if you do meet somebody at the club or wherever, then do you put them through the interview process? And if they make it through the interview process and they join the team,

then you can see about dating them. our mentors came in and sat down with us at Panera Brad. And we sit down and the first thing that the mentor from Houston says is, okay, so you guys like each other on a scale from one to ten, how sure are you about getting married? And we're like getting married. Like we just found out we like each other like a day ago. What do you mean getting married?

But he made us answer. And I remember Keelan said he was like a nine out of ten about being sure about getting married. And then whenever it came to my turn, he didn't make me answer after all. He was like, I already know how Stephanie feels so she doesn't have to answer. So basically they told us that we were allowed to date, but it had to be in secret for the next month. And basically the next month was for us to figure out if we want to get married or not. Then we got engaged and got married like two months later. It was very much like you should only have sex if you're married, which is why they pushed us to get married.

fast. We even had a wedding day on the calendar. And a month before that wedding day, we told our mentors we were struggling not to have sex. Like, it was really hard for us. We were just told that we need to go hurry up and get married before Satan puts us in bed together. And so they were like, go get married on Monday. This was like a weekend. On Monday, go get married. Go to the court and get married. And so we did. We got married a month before actually like ceremony. My mother-in-law was mad because she found out we got married a month before and she was really sad that she wasn't like there for the whole thing and stuff so it was a big drama i'm sorry this is just way too fucking much you're right look first they changed how stephanie dressed then they changed her

religious beliefs and then they decided whether she was allowed to date and now they're telling her when to get married they sell soap tyler Soap and vitamins. They sell soap. And they're telling her when to get married. She met them at the gym. She won energy drinks. And now they're dictating the time and date she should get married.

And who to marry? Yes. Shall we mention. I just, can I just one more time state how inequitably I hate MLMs. I hate them. I hate their programs. I hate their cultic tactics. And frankly, I think I hate this one more than the others.

And I grew up in Utah. That is like ground zero capital for MLMs. And I hate Emway now. This is what I wanted to learn about this cult because I knew, but I didn't know. And now I know. Look, while I hate MLMs, I suspect that Keelan's mom shares my sentiment when she learned her son had secretly gotten married. under the direction of some laundry soap salesman, because that's what you are if you're listening.

You sell soap and lies. Sell soap and false dreams. And unfortunately, this was just the beginning of Amway coming between them and their families. If anybody outside of the business, if they were negative about the business, then you might not want to spend as much time with them because then it's going to pollute your thought process, which in turn is going to make it

not as easy to recruit people. So we just gaslight ourselves to where it's like, no, I'm not going to hang out with my family if they're negative. My family, they're Hispanic, they did not know what's going on. They're just like, yeah, whatever. But with my husband's side of the family, I will tell you, his mom knew exactly how to play her cards right to stay in our life. during that whole time. Because if she would have actually told us what she was thinking about all this, we would have cut her off because she knew that we were in a cold. She knew what to say to us so that we wouldn't push her away. She would never talk bad about the business. So in our minds, my mother-in-law was our biggest number one supporter. So while Keelan's mom quietly did what she had to do to stay in their

lives. Stephanie and Keelan just kept getting deeper and deeper into theirs. And for Stephanie, well, this meant moving up the imaginary bullshit ladder of bullshit cult hierarchy. Yeah, you heard that man, Amway. It's a bullshit. Bullshit. Instead of IBO, it's you be full of us. You're not making any friends at Amway, Liz. So at first you were told it was going to take about five to ten weeks outside of your job. And that's what you tell somebody that's new. But once you become a leader and say like becoming a leader was so cool because you are well known in the environment.

You're like in the inner circle. Everybody respects you. You're a leader. And I would say that being a leader is just easier access for the higher up leaders to control you because now you're an example. And so now everything you do is under a microscope. Like we couldn't go visit our family in Tennessee for a long period of time. And we were told, like, don't do that because you're an example and do we really want our teams to

just go hang out with their parents for long periods of time? Because we know that parents can get in their heads and then they'll start thinking negatively about the business. We never did vacations or anything. We didn't do anything that didn't have to do with being in business. Basically, our mindset was if you're not doing this with us, then what's the point of having you in my life? Like, that sounds so horrible.

So all of our friends were in the business. And you were not allowed to also speak anything negative going on in your life. You're only allowed to talk to your mentor about that. Me and my mentor were close, but she wasn't allowed to tell me all the shit going on in her life. So it was always like one-sided relationship because I would tell her all my crap, but then she wasn't allowed to do the same with me. So I was still working my dental job for,

about four more years after I got started. I loved my job before, but then whenever you start getting around the LTV team, it's like, oh, you have to go to your stupid job. I'm out of my job. We would chant to start the meeting off. And it was like this. Oh, h, hugh, flush that stick in job.

And that was our chant. Hmm, that's a nice chant. I feel a song coming on, Liz. Yeah, now that we can't play music, guess what? Sorry, we're just going to make her own. So the mindset towards jobs became so negative that naturally I started sucking at my job. You also have this mentality when you're a part of LTT that you're just like better than

everybody else in society. That you literally are better because you're part of like the secret society and that you just no more. And so anyways, I end up getting fired, rightfully so, because I was just not a good employee anymore. And I was like really pushing for wanting to be a stay-at-home mom. So I got pregnant on purpose so that I could just be a stay-home mom. Me and my husband, the way we worked, he was more of the shy one. I was more of the outgoing one. So I was like taking lead on all the meetings, taking lead on recruiting people on all of it. He works as an IT analyst, and he's still doing that same job. We had that income. Then when I lost my dental assistant job and we started

to have kids, finance was really hard because all of our money was going into this business. I was never not bringing an income, though. I would find ways to bring income, like giving plasma. At one point was running an in-home daycare and had like 10 kids at my house at once. Like I had to be making some sort of income or else it wasn't going to work. Logistically, I would stay home with them during the day. My husband was working. But it was like as soon as he got off work, five o'clock, we were out meeting people. We were out at parks and stuff, meeting other parents. And then if we had meetings, we figured out that if we got a lifetime gym membership, our kids would go in the daycare there. And then we would just do two and a half hours of meeting. It was 5 p.m. to 9 p.m. usually. And then, oh, my gosh,

our kids, they went to bed at 11 every single night. And whenever parents would say like, oh, I can't do this and this because my kids bedtime, we would literally make fun of them and be like, what do you mean your kids go to bed at seven? Like, what? These meetings would start at 8 p.m. And then after that one meeting, we would go to what's called a night owl that started at 1130 p.m. Those would run until about 2 a.m. We had them at least once a week, at least. And then after that meeting was over, we would stand in the parking lot from two in the morning until about four in the morning. The rule was you're not allowed to leave until the leader leaves. Yeah, we just have to find babysitters that are okay with staying that long. I would consider myself a good mom, but looking back at those days, I definitely trusted people that

I shouldn't have trusted to take care of my kids, just random people I met on like Facebook. The thought process was like, if you just need to trust God, it was crazy. Also, whenever people got pregnant, it was don't get baby vision. Baby vision just means you have a baby. Now it's your whole life. You forget about the business. You don't build it as much anymore because now you're focused on your baby. It was frowned upon to get pregnant prior to hitting these levels, which is so funny because the majority of people that get involved is because they want to spend more time with their kids. But then you end up not spending any time with your kids. But we were on a very tight budget. and the majority of our money was going either to bills or the business.

We're spending at least $1,500 a month on products. Making money from selling products is not at all where the money was coming from. The money was coming from where you are on the bonus scale. So Amway pays you a percentage of where you are on the bonus skill. So, okay, whenever you're an Amway business owner, you have your own business, which is basically your own website that people can shop out and you can shop from yourself. Every single product has a certain amount of points attached to it. So a bottle of shampoo could have three points, and it's $10 for the bottle of shampoo or something.

It's a three to one ratio. Basically, the standard on every team was that each person has at least 300 points. So you'd have to buy like $1,000 worth of stuff to have 300 points in your own circle. And then the people that you recruit, they have their own circles, and they have each 300 points. So how many points I have equals where I'm at on the percentage level, which is going to equal how much you're going to get paid from Amher. way standpoint. Some months were easy and other months, me and my husband got into debt from trying to hit the 7,500 points. So we like opened some credit cards and got deep in a hole of debt so that we can hit the 7,500 points. Our mindset was like, one day we'll make it and we're going to make all

of it back and it's going to be worth it. My first year, I spent $21,000 just to make $2,000. year three we made 11,000, but we spent 39,000. Year four, we made 16,000, but we spent 55. And year five, we made 32,000, but we spent 40,000. In year six, we made 60,000 and spent 58,000. In your seven, we made 16,000, but we spent 43,000. Year eight, we made 24,000. thousand, but we spent 50,000. And then in the last year we were in, we made $22,000, but we spent

$37,000. So if you do all the math, we ended up losing $188,350 over the course of nine years. After being a part of this for so long and then being a leader, one of the slogans was like, the team's calendar is more important than your personal calendar. So basically that meant anything that the team puts on the calendar automatically comes above anything that you have on your personal calendar. And this team calendar didn't necessarily mean some big Amway conference popping up. It could literally be anything, like going to your mentor's house for an evening of chatting about Amway around a campfire. And then you'd go to that and I'd just like be pissed the whole time because nothing's really happening. Like we're just literally sitting around the fire doing nothing and I don't really want to be here.

but you have to show your face because if you don't you are considered unappreciative of your mentor's time. So I started to feel like I didn't have freedom. I couldn't just go visit my family in Costa Rica because I was told I have to hit the certain level before I can go do something like that. And I was nine years in and I started being really like I can't just do XYZ. I have to get permission first and I can't just go buy a house because we're not allowed to buy a house yet because we're not at this level yet. Therefore, whenever I would talk to prospects when I was interviewing them, and I would tell them, like, we can help you be financially free or just like be free. I didn't feel free. And so I started to feel like a hypocrite.

And I started to feel like I was lying to them. And I started to feel like a phony. And anyways, the friendships just started to feel very fake, very transactional. Even if you didn't like somebody on your team, you had to be their mentor. so you had to be their fake friend. And I started just to feel like, I'm not even myself. Like, I really started to struggle with this. Somebody on our team sponsored somebody.

It's a cute young couple. They get started. Their family basically sees red flags and tells them, you're getting started in a cult, don't do this. And so I just remember getting a phone call from the girl. And they were like, we just got sent this video from our family member. we are freaking out right now.

Like, did we just start a cold? And I remember telling them, no big deal. Like, let's sit down. Let's schedule a meeting. You guys and me and my husband, we can sit down and we can address anything that you saw in this video. I told the girl, like, hey, send me the video so that me and my husband can watch it.

And then we can come to that meeting, like, prepared to debunk anything that this video is accusing us of. There may be no phrase more dangerous to a cult than send me the video. I'll debunk it. Because every once in a while, someone who's worn out with the cult actually watches the video. We watched the video. And honestly, after watching that video, I told my husband, I was like, Keelan, we need to cancel this meeting. I cannot look this couple in the face and try to defend why we're not all that because I'm watching it.

And I'm like, yep, yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, actually, yes, actually, yes. And I told him, I was like, I can't meet. with them. I need to cancel this meeting. I'm not, I'm not okay. After that was when I finally allowed myself to actually have a thought that maybe we're in a cult, that maybe this is not what we've thought it was this entire time. And I couldn't afford to think that way before because I was so scared to ruin my own thought process that then people wouldn't get on my team. But at that point, I was just so fed up with it all. And I was like allowing myself to hear stories from people, that were apart a long time ago and just their experiences.

I started following a girl on TikTok that was an Amway kid. So she grew up with her parents being in Amway, and she would talk about how she never saw her parents. She always had babysitters. And I'm like, that's going to be my kids if I keep doing this. And I stopped right then and there. I stopped going to the weekly meetings. I stopped associating.

I stopped talking to anybody that was in this group. My husband was still all in. He thought, because my mentors thought, that I was underneath Satan's attack. Satan was in my mind, and that's why I have now become negative. So anything I had to say meant nothing at all to my husband, because in his mind I was just going insane. But the thing is, like, your brainwashed to believe this is God's calling on your life. So if you leave, you're, like, disobeying God. And while my husband was at the one of the meetings, I would just do research.

on cults specifically, not even Amway anymore, just cults. I would shake. I was shaking. Shaking, shaking, shaking. Because I was waking up to this truth. That's really painful to wake up from.

You know, it is significant that Stephanie wasn't just researching Amway anymore. She was researching cults. All kinds of cults. Right, because if you're going to say, like, is selling soap a cult, the question sounds ridiculous because it's soap.

What? It's soap. But when you stop comparing the products and you start comparing the tactics, dishonest recruitment, controlling information, isolating people, sleep deprivation, dictating their clothes, relationships, and finances, well... Suddenly, the Mooneys, Children of God, David Koresh, Nexium, and a business selling laundry detergents. start to look disturbingly familiar.

Yeah, the beliefs are different, but the machinery, well, it's the same. And it was like two months of like him going to meetings, him thinking I'm insane, him thinking Satan's talking through me. And I remember thinking like, I could never see a life where he wasn't going to be in. I could never see a life where he would go against anything that our mentors or the system would say. So I think I was faced with the decision like, I'm either going back into the environment and pretending like I didn't just discover all this and just fake it and just live my normal life.

Or I'm going to have to get a divorce because there's no way in hell this man would ever leave this. And it was really hard because you have nobody to talk to because your only friend is your mentor, who's against you. And I knew like the only person that was like contemplating reaching out to was my mother-in-law. But I knew like once I opened up that door, it was no going back because I can't be like, I think this is a cold blah blah blah blah blah and then later be like actually we're going to stay in you know and I struggled with it for a few weeks and I finally broke down called her crying and her response to my surprise was like Stephanie I've been praying for you guys to get out of this thing for

years and I was shocked because like I said she was always our number one supporter and once I had her on my side it was easier I was like I have somebody that I can talk to and um During those two months, I bought him an Xbox because that's one thing you're not allowed to do in business is play video games you really get made fun of for. And so he had put down video games. He hadn't played them in years. And he, oh my gosh, he was like a little kid again like playing his video game. While he was playing his video game, I had the second TV and I had cult documentaries playing because I was like, this is the only way he's going to be able to see this. And it was like two weeks of just playing these cold documentaries.

Instead of reading our books at night, finally, we were like just watching this stuff. And after he saw the one for him that really got him was the Keith Ranieri, the vow. The main character said in that documentary, he was like, nobody joins a cold. Nobody wakes up and says, I want to be a part of a cold. And that's what really got him. And I remember him just being so confused and finally just walking through all this to where we decided, okay, we're going to quit. And that was whenever we set up a meeting with our mentors and finally told him, like,

we're leaving. We don't know if we're making the right decision. We're really scared because we're going to be excommunicated from this whole group of people. And so it was very cordial and we love you. And if you ever want to come back, we're here for you was what they said. And we were like, okay, love you too. A few months after leaving, it's like you're still struggling with, did I make the right choice?

Should I have really quit? Anything that you have been taught up to this point was put there by those people. So you're questioning everything that you even believe in. I'm like, was that actually my real thought or my real belief? Or was this just put there by the leaders? It's a very hard, long process. It's been two years now. And I know we need therapy.

We need to talk through all this with a professional. And I think religion has been the hardest part because we are taught everything that we believe for so long by them that now. everything's put into question. And I would say we still don't really know where we stand on it all. We're still trying to figure that out. We know for sure that I don't think we'll ever return to a church. Even if we choose to follow Jesus, going to church is not going to be something that we are going to probably be doing. Just because I feel like we're scared to get taken advantage of again and we're scared to get manipulated again,

I want everybody that's still in to know that there's no shame in leaving. We just actually were like we'd rather face the shame of it all and having to restart alive and having no friends and having to face the fact that we were wrong and being open with ourselves about that.

I feel like people are still in even though they're not making money for years and years and years because they're stuck. They literally can't leave. Our mentors are good people and I truly fully believe that they're just,

stuck. They just can't leave. I started Instagram because I needed to make money. And it's crazy because it's been exactly a year in August since I started. And now I'm like literally everything that we wanted to accomplish in Amway for nine years that we were working towards, we will be able to accomplish now through doing social media in a way shorter time span. We were able to pay off four credit cards in the last two years since being out, unlike whenever we were in Amway, always just saying, let's get more debt, we're going to hit Diamond one day and then it all be worth it. Now it's like actual plans, like actually being able to write down when we're going to be debt-free like we want to be, which was always our goal. It's just like now it's actually happening.

And there it is. The thing they spent nine years trying to get away from Amway. And the promise of financial freedom. Except they didn't start actually getting financially free. Until they effing left. A story that is all too familiar on this show. But now, they're tackling their finances. They have a real plan.

And most importantly, nobody has to approve this plan. Nobody gets to tell them when they can visit their family. Or what they can wear. Or who they can talk to. Or who they can marry or whether they can buy it. a house? Or whether they're allowed to sleep. Okay, so sure, they didn't get diamond. Instead, they got out. And that was the real level worth hitting in our books. You know, hey Liz, we should probably make our own recordings, our audio recordings of how dumb diamond is,

and slip it into LTD's University audio materials. Oh, I like this idea. Let me illustrate through my story. When I saw this business, we had nothing. You heard a little bit about our story. I got actually very excited. But the three things we have all have, we have a self-image, our attitude about ourselves. We also have circumstances. Hey girl, it's Liz.

Yeah. So, real quick, you don't know me. And the truth is, you don't actually want to know me. Because to know me would mean that you would have to be on my show one day, talking about a cult you were in. So let me just save you before you get too deep into this bullshit. Diamond, that whole thing

that they're trying to recruit you in, it's done. They made it up. No one gets shit. No one outside of the Amway knows what diamond means or cares or will ever give a shit that you're a diamond. Yeah, and you know what chances are? Fact of the matter is, you're not going to be one.

You're never going to be one. You are currently being indoctrinated into a cult, and the reason you won't make diamond isn't because you didn't work hard enough. It isn't because you didn't listen to enough audios. No, it's not because you skipped a conference or you took a fucking vacation or you slept more than four hours or you failed to harass enough of your strangers on Facebook.

It's because the FTC reviewed income disclosures from 70 MLM70 and found that the vast majority of participants received $1,000 or less per year. And that's before expenses. And in at least 17 of these MLMs, most participants made nothing at all. So, how do they keep you, listener in? Well, they show you the diamond. The mysterious diamond. They put the diamond on stage.

You listen to the Diamond's audio. You hear about the Diamond's house and the Diamond's car and the Diamond's marriage and the Diamond's beautifully, financially free fucking life. And then when you're losing money trying to become the Diamond, the answer is never going to be, well, maybe this. business sucks and isn't an actual business and it's stupid. It's going to be about you. They're going to blame me. You need to work harder. You need to go to another conference. You need to buy more, recruit more, listen more, believe more, sacrifice more. Just do more. Be better.

And you know what the fact of the matter is is that the average person in an MLM works 700 hours a year in the MLM? That's 700 hours, probably outside of your real job so that you can make nothing. Meanwhile, your actual life is happening. Your kids are growing up, your parents are getting older, and your friends are doing wonderful things, but they stop calling you because you've hounded them so many times, and you've applied for another credit card, and you're standing in a fucking parking lot at four in the morning because someone with a gemstone for a job title has convinced you that going home before the middle of the night equals failure.

So no, girl, boss babe. awesome. Theotch. You don't need another conference. No. You don't need to become more coachable. You don't need to manifest harder.

You don't need to believe more. You don't need better downline. Satan is not attacking your business. No. No. You know what is happening? You're in a cult. Yeah.

And the real freedom is getting the fuck out. Like our badass warrior today, Steph. So back to your stupid bullshit, cliched rava, platitudes, expensive audio. Take it away, loser, man. Let me illustrate through my story. When I saw this business, we had nothing.

You heard a little bit about our story. I got actually very excited, but the three things we have all have. We have a self-image, our attitude about ourselves. We also have circumstances. All right, enough of that. Enough of that. Enough of that. enough of that. Can somebody slip that into some MLM audio somewhere? That would just be

that hard to hack LTD University? Right. We could do another program that teaches you how to be in the LTD so that you can be in Amway. You're talking about a plant. You're talking about putting someone in. A third business. And it's us. You know what I'm saying? I hope this third business has energy drinks. It will. It absolutely will. Okay, good. Put that top of the list.

Energy drinks and soap. Thank you, Steph. You are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your time with us. And you can follow Steph's journey now online. The link to all of her socials is in our show notes. And we will be back next week with the wonderful cult survivor and expert, Danielle, Young, she's the author of Uncultured, her memoir about growing up in the Children of God cult,

for those who listened to the Fleetwood Mac episode not too long ago. We featured a touch of that book on that episode. Yeah, I'm very excited for you guys to hear this episode. She has a recent book called The Coulting of America. It also comes with an addendum workbook. So for anybody who is actively getting out of a cult, it's sort of a deprogramming workbook, which pretty read. Yeah, and that is required reading. Here it was Iana cult university. It is.

You have to listen to our podcasts over and over and over. If you're standing, you're listening. If you're sitting, you're reading. How do we get them the $80 link to all of our audios? Because I don't think they're going to pay for that, right? Yeah, I think what's best is they just send us the $80 and we'll figure it out. Or we won't. Or you know what?

they're going to do is they're just going to go online where all of them are free. Yeah. And listen there. So, shoot. Well, you know what? That's on them. This plan is not doing. They're not working hard enough.

I think would be the problem, Liz. It's obviously they're not manifesting. PayPal us. Venmo me, the $80. And then Rob will make sure to get you. I'll get right on it. Yeah. All the audios that are already available for you for free.

But don't tell them that. Wasaynicold is written, hosted, produced by Liz Executive Presidential Diamond Elite Ayakuzzi. Here, here at your service. And Tyler, the founding emerald abundance partner, the IBS. Me's them. And Rob, who chimes in. Rob, why don't you tell us what your title is? I was actually just promoted to Global Diamond Prosperity Director.

You worked hard for that. Yeah, if you're looking for prosperity, I can direct you to that. Yeah, I'm looking for detergent, though. It's also assistant edited by Greta executive Ruby Dream Builder, happy, fantastic, top of the downline. Everybody's getting rich on their yacht, Stromquist.