Was I In A Cult? - Armstrongism: “Saving For the Feast” [UPDATE]

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

**Note: This episode originally aired in February 2022**COME SEE US LIVE!!! In LA on Sept 9, 2025 with special guest, comedian Moses Storm @ Dynasty Typewriter. LINK TO TICKETS!! A humble upbringing is an understatement for Dan McIntrye. Canada born and bred, Dan's cult journey took him from guitar god, to free desserts to cult escape, only to land him right in the arms of... another one? A double survivor. A triple thriver. And one extremely nice guy. Damn, Canadians, you really are as kind as they say. ——COME SEE US LIVE!! In LA on Sept 9, 2025 with special guest, comedian Moses Storm @ Dynasty Typewriter. LINK TO TICKETS! VIP meet n greet available… see you then!Follow Us for More Culty Content:Instagram & TikTok: @wasiinacultSupport the Show:This show is listener-powered. If Dan’s story got you thinking—rate, review, and share. Thank you to our Patreon members!! We appreciate you. And if you would like ad-free episodes and exclusive content, consider joining our Patreon.Share Your Story:Have a cultic experience of your own? We want to hear it.Email us: [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome, everyone to was I an occult. I'm Liz Ayakousy. And I'm Tyler Meesum. Tyler, it is my turn to eat lobster in Maine this week, sir. So I just spent three weeks in Maine, and of course I recorded and edited three episodes during that period. But, you know, Liz can't handle two things at once. She only uses 10% of her brain, right? We'll get more into that later.

But I was there for three weeks and then I came home and randomly Liz is there now, one week after I left. I'm here and it's my first time to Maine. You've been here many times, but it's my first time. And guys, I'm going to do a little plug. If you want a fantastic lobster roll near Portland in Cape Elizabeth, go to the bite into Maine, get the picnic. I'm still dreaming about it. lobster rolls in Maine there's nothing better

although the price of lobster rolls has gone up by the way in addition to everything but there's less lobster because of climate change oddly enough for all those people who don't believe in climate change go to Maine

get a lobster roll look out the window there's a fire but I will say having been to Maine a lot there's a pilgrimage I always make and it's the main brewing company it's fantastic

they have the best beer in the world they have a beer called lunch which is fantastic. They have a beer called dinner, which is good. And the day I left, I never got to taste it, but they released a beer called breakfast. So good. So for all of you, alcoholics,

you can get breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That does sound good. Maybe we'll try to get there. I don't know if we'll have enough time. But yes, because of that, guys, we are releasing today an oldie, but a very goodie, a very goodie, mostly because I'm currently in a hotel room

with my mother-in-law, my three-year-old and my husband, and there's not really a lot of quiet areas to record this week. Yeah. Hi, Sue. Hi, Adam. Sue, I'm recording right now. Please keep it down. Thank you.

So we're releasing an oldie, but one of my particular favorites. It's a tearjerker, guys. If you're a parent, even if you're not, you will definitely be hugging your child more closely at the end of this one. Yeah. Yeah, I cry at the end of this episode every time I listen to it. This features Canadian Dan McIntyre. He was in not one, but two cults. And he was kind of randomly dropped it on me during the interview, which is part of the episode. You'll hear it. And Tyler, this is from our very first season. Going way back. When we were just pre-wrinkles, you know. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're new to the

show. You will see now what growth is. Hopefully we've improved since our first season. Or regression. But we're definitely older. But we've definitely grown older. And our asses are wiser or wider. Are a combo of both. Yeah. But before we dive in, guys, we have a very exciting announcement to make. We are going to have a live show coming up on September 9th, literally a month from yesterday in Los Angeles, a dynasty typewriter, September 9th, Dynasty Typewriter. Which is a cool theater, a unique name. But the comedian Moses Storm will join us on stage. He'll talk about cults. He'll talk about his time growing up in a doomsday cult that lived on a bus. You can come see us in person. You can hear the story live. You can get some laughs. You can have some

fun and you can watch me just give some fun facts crash and burn without an internet connection Tyler you know liz it's all up here 80% of my brain is taken up with wonderful facts I thought we only use like what 10% of our brain or 20 okay so this is a misnomer I heard this the other day everyone's like oh we only use 10% of our brain imagine if we could use more of it that is not true at all We only use 10% of our brain at a time. MRI studies show that we actually use all of our brain during the day and even when we sleep, but we don't need all of it. I don't need the part of my brain that knows how to tie shoes while I'm, say, recording a podcast. So it's similar to other parts of your body, like your abs, for instance.

You don't use those. At this point, ever, it feels like, no. It's ever. Right. Right. So nonetheless. But they're still part of your body waiting to be tagged in. Occasionally I use them when I cough. Put me in. Coach.

Right. So come see this chaos nonsense live. Dynasty typewriter tickets, dynasty typewriter.com. Bring your friends. Bring your mom. I don't know. Just bring people. Do the right cult move and recruit. There you go. That's what they need. Recruit your friends. Yeah, they'll be snacks. It's a self-help group. You'll feel better after. It'll be a really fun night. So we'll see you there.

Here is Dan. Dan McIntyre, here is a story. Now, we had him record an update of his life since the podcast. It's at the end of the show. Stick around. Such a sweetie. Dan's the man. Please note this episode references suicidal attempts. One of the things that strikes me when listening to this show is just how many cult leaders came along thinking the world was going to end roughly around the same time. All these people came and went with their messages of doom and gloom, and then this generation of kids was left holding the bag when it turned out it was all bullshit. They were so convinced that the world was going to end that they didn't really bother to raise their kids. Welcome to Was I in a cult? I'm Tyler Meesam.

And I'm Liz Aykousy. And yes, the answer, you guys, is yes. We were in cults. And so were our guests, whom we'd like to think of as survivors and thrivers, not victims. And so do they. For too long, those who have found themselves in cults have been pigeonholed into a certain type of human. And we hope by now, listeners, if you've taken anything from this show, it's that there is not one type of human who ends up in a manipulative cultic environment. And there is not one type of cult. And this week's story comes to us from Canada, our friendly neighbors to the north. In previous episodes, we've had some fun with you, Canada, but we love you and appreciate your listenership.

I could drink a case of you, Canada. still be on my feet. I did have a lovely chat with Canada, Dan, Dan from Canada, Danada. And he definitely came the most prepared of any of our guests. Now you're going to make our other guests feel bad, Tyler. Take out your night. Beautify me. Don't spit my life.

crucify me It's a pleasure to meet you, Dan. Oh, man, yeah, I just, I really appreciate you taking the time to hear my story. It's because the title of the show was the very question that I spent, like, years asking myself, was, was I in a cult? So I was born in the fall of 1986. I was born in Prince George in northern British Columbia, Canada, which is a very blue-collar city of about 80,000. people. Lots of forestry. It reeks like pulp mill, has a bad reputation for crime rates, and it's kind of a mess. It sounds lovely, though. So I have one sister. She's three years older than me.

We lived in a tiny log cabin on a five-acre ranch just outside of city limits. There was no master bedroom, no nothing. Like you'd walk in, there'd be a couch on the left, a fireplace on the right, My parents' bed right in the middle, and my sister and I shared a bunk bed in this tiny room no bigger than the bunk bed with literally just a fireplace heating the cabin. So I would be chopping wood in sub-zero temperatures to bring it in to get this fire going. We were in extreme poverty. We would collect pop cans to afford food. My mom was this artsy lady, and she was a hoarder with this really, like, eclectic decorating style.

Our house looks like something out of Harry Potter. My dad had incredibly repressed anger issues, and most of the time I understood why. He had really aggressive muscular dystrophy. It couldn't have been easy, like, having your body betray you like that in the prime of your life. There are many types of muscular dystrophy, but essentially it's a muscle disease,

causing the muscle to weaken, sometimes to the point of immobility. One of the biggest re-appraisals I've ever done in my adult life was realizing what my dad actually put my mom through. My mom wanted to be a dancer and an artist, but now she was a caregiver to a disabled husband and a mother of a three-year-old and a newborn in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere. So when I was really young, my mom tried committing suicide with painkillers and alcohol, and things got really, really bad after that. like she got delusional. She thought she was one of the two witnesses from the end times in the Bible. But one way the family found comfort

was by going to church. To the worldwide church of God. Hundreds of people went to this church in Prince George alone. Like potlucks were row upon row of tables. There were multiple hockey teams. That is so Canadian. There were summer camps, dances, everything. But the actual religious

organization itself was massive. This organization had its own radio program, television program, a college called an ambassador college, various publications and magazines. This entity, the Worldwide Church of God, was also known as Armstrongism because it was started by a man named Herbert Armstrong. What kind of name is Herbert? A really good one. If you have a name that rhymes with Sherbert.

Sherbert. Oh, Herbert. Sherbert's underrated. I'm going to name my kid Herbert. Herbert. Armstrong was born in Des Moines, Iowa, into a Quaker family. He had an early career in, like, print and advertising. In the 1917s, he met a lady by the name of Loma Dillon, who was a school teacher. And I think they married that same year.

And one day, while driving, Loma had a vision. The sky cracked open, angels bathed in white, came down and said that soon Christ is returning, and we have some important. important work for you guys to do to pave the way before it happens. The Armstrong's took this as a sign and... Herbert Armstrong became an ordained minister of that church. In the Seventh-day Adventist Church, he was an ardent student of the Bible and eventually realized with some strong persuasion from his visionary wife that... Mainstream Christianity had gotten it wrong, that it was fundamentally wrong.

Take a number, bra. You ain't the first thing. have that thought. Herbert built his ideology, and then he took it to the airwaves in 1933 when he was offered a preaching slot on a small 100-watt radio station out of Eugene, Oregon. A small slot on a small station with big repercussions. It almost seemed to lend them more credibility just because they were on the radio. You have to understand, radio at the time was a very novel and new concept. Commercial radio is only about a dozen years old, with the first licensed radio station, KDCA, launching on November 2nd, 1920, to less than 100 listeners. The first words uttered, quote, is anybody listening? Which is how Tyler feels whenever he speaks. You're listening. Because you've got nowhere to go.

This is my job. But Armstrong, they listened. He used his savvy as an advertiser paired with the medium of radio and mimeographed newsletters to preach his unique and impassioned radio church, quite literally named the radio church of God. Greetings, friends of the radio church. This is Herbert Armstrong, speaking today on what is prophesied now to come. With his calming voice mixed with fear-based ideology, projections of world wars, and dismissals of science, his audience started to grow. When he said that this is the beginning of sorrow. just the beginning of trouble and of sorrows in the world today.

Eventually, his sermons were broadcast nationwide from a 50,000-watt station out of Iowa. And in 1946, he moved to Pasadena, California. Hey, that's where I live. And bought a home in an area known as Millionaire's Road. Hey, that's not where I live. Armstrong eventually changed the name of his church from Radio Church of God to the worldwide Church of God. Fucker's setting up franchises. I characterize him in my own mind as basically like the Walt Disney of cult leaders.

Armstrong eventually had his convincing dogma broadcast not only on radio, but on over 400 television stations worldwide in a show called The World Tomorrow, which sounds like a soap opera. But he had more stations than Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, and Jim Baker. And if you don't know who the hell those people are, Just insert old white male televangelist here. Picture him, now you deal. As a matter of fact, two absolutely unthinkable world events are going to occur in the approximate future.

First, the unthinkable nuclear World War III that could annihilate all civilization is definitely going to come. From Herbert's wide-reaching electronic pulpit, he was more than able to spew his interpretations of the Bible, mixed with false prophecies, and sprinkled with a dash of white supremacy. All the good stuff, including the idea that the inhabitants of the United States and Britain were direct descendants of the tribe of Ephraim and the tribe of Manasseh. The idea being that it basically put a bunch of old white dudes at the center of biblical prophecy. It must be said, however, that this theory is inconsistent with the findings of modern research on the genetic history of the Jews. Armstrong also preached that only God can heal humans and that medical science is pagan, telling his followers to avoid seeing doctors except for things like broken bones. And sadly, there are many instances of his followers dying because they did not seek proper medical attention. Why do doctors take such a beating in cults?

Yeah, what is it? What did science do to you? You, cult leaders. Yeah, what's up, man? Just trying to save your damn life. Built some medicine. Take us to the moon. The second major key is Armstrong believed that Jesus' sacrifice didn't negate or fulfill old Levitical law.

Which means that they essentially threw out the New Testament as Scripture, and they observed the Levitical Holy Days, which, among other things, means to observe clean and unclean meat laws. Keep the Sabbath Day holy and observe strict. sexual purity laws. All the hits you can expect from Leviticus. Premarital sex was strictly forbidden. Homosexuality, strictly forbidden. Masturbation, strictly forbidden.

If you do this, you're going to be thrown into a lake of fire. Oh, the old lake of fire. Yeah, the old lake of fire. Really? Can there be a lake full of fire? Yeah, you'd think the water in the lake would put the fire out. So it shouldn't be called a lake of fire. It should be called... A pit?

A pit of fire. No, but it's a lake. Full of fire. It's also a great neuroval of fire. It is. There's that. That's a ring of fire. That's a good one too. It's a ring. It's a ring.

Johnny Cash actually had it right, Armstrong. Also, makeup and divorce were a sin, as well as long hair for men and short hair for women. The third major key was that Herbert W. Armstrong believed that he was the end times apostle. Not one of many, but like the guy. In his worldview, it went God. Jesus Christ, Herbert W. Armstrong. God, Jesus, and a random dude from Iowa. The fourth major key was that the end times were supposed to be in 1975, and that the only people saved from it would be...

Let me guess, Armstrongians. The one true church, the first fruits of the worldwide church of God, and that we'd all rise up as literal gods with new and perfect bodies. Once again, a doomsday that failed to occur. And for Dan's parents, they took this personally. They seemed legitimately angry that they were still alive. These two people wanted so badly to give the world the middle finger, but they never got their hot day in the sun,

so they took it out on their kids, literally daily. There was basically two distinct versions of my parents. My dad was in a relatively successful local band, and they would play weddings and a few festivals. festivals, even in his condition still playing like that. It was really cool. He was this talented, charismatic, smart, hilarious guy. He took guitar at the college in New Caledonia, but behind closed doors at home, he was angry all the time. My mom very clearly didn't want kids, like very clearly from the way she acted, from the way she blamed us for her life not being what she

wanted it to be. She literally beat my sister night daily for no reason at all. I remember one day at school, it was like grade two or three. Me and my friends were talking about being spanked and all the things we'd get spanked for. And they were like, yeah, I get smacked on the butt sometimes. I was talking about being like whipped with garden hoses or slammed into the refrigerator or beat with wooden spoons for hours straight. And I'll never forget the way they looked at me where I was like, maybe my house isn't normal. It messed both my sister up in totally different ways. I became, like, a big troublemaker in elementary school.

I was somewhere between, like, class clown and that kid that just wouldn't shut up, like, the most annoying kid. Herbert Armstrong died in 1986, and yes, prior to his death, he did see doctors who prolonged his life. And not surprisingly, after his death, the church was thrown into turmoil. was infighting over succession, massive wars of republication rights, families falling apart, there were allegations of sexual abuse, financial abuse. And then in 1995, everything changed where basically there was this massive split in the church headed up by the senior leadership. They finally decided that Armstrong's interpretations were wrong and that they missed the grace of Christ, et cetera, et cetera.

So they elected for a doctrinal shift to make the worldwide Church of God more like mainstream Christianity. Armstrong's writings were disavowed, and he was declared a false prophet and a heretic. Many of the followers simply left the church, but... But a lot of people weren't ready to make that shift, my parents included. There was this splinter group formed called the United Church of God that would carry the torch of Armstrongism.

And Dan's parents, well, they sided with them. They became members of... of the United Church of God. But in Dan's community, there were very few. It was literally a dozen people. But these people were the rebels, the true believers, the fighters, and the activists, right? It was basically just like a bunch of old board people waiting around for the end times. Not even enough to field a hockey team.

On Saturday, I would load my dad up into the van, drive downtown. We were renting this Ukrainian dance hall. downtown for this weekly services. We'd roll in, set up the chairs, set up the podium. We didn't have a pianist, so the accompaniment for the hymns was on tape. There's 12 people in this big dance hall singing these old hymns about smiting her enemies and casting judgment on people, whatever. And then there'd be a sermonette, there'd be announcements, a sermon, that was it. Everyone would swap hunting stories and timbits and hit the road. are Canada's bite-sized donuts.

They're named after the hockey player Tim Horton. Tim Bits. Tim Bits. Fun to eat, fun to say. Tim played 24 seasons in the NHL, and then he founded a very popular chain of fast food stores in Canada called Tim Hortons. Tim died in a car crash in 1974, but his name is plastered everywhere with over 4,800 stores in 14 countries,

and in each one of them, you can find Tim Bits. Liz? I don't like donuts, Tyler. What do you mean you don't like donuts? I'm sorry. I don't kill me, but I hate donuts. I've hated them since I was a child. Fine.

I guess we won't be snacking on Lisbitts anytime soon. What would be in Elizabeth? Please write us and tell us what you guys would want to be in Elizabeth. Sarcasm and yoga pants. That's basically Elizabeth. That sounds delicious. I basically spent my entire childhood being taught that. people were like evil and people were no good and they were all going to burn in the lake of fire

except for these 12 people that went to this church up on a hill. The church was small, but the rules, they were the same. The most strict rules in Armstrongism were directly correlated to the keeping of the holy days. For instance, the days of unleavened bread was this week where we would have to completely rid our entire property of any and all yeast and leavening agents. The Day of Atonement was just a literal fast, like from sunset to sunset, couldn't need any food or drink anything. Armstrong had taught a form of sabbatarianism, basically keeping the Sabbath day holy. Which they believed started on Friday at sunset and ended at sunset on Saturday.

It was really strict. Basically, as soon as sunset hit on Friday, it was like TV's off, you know, to be home. My parents might sing hymns or something like that, and we couldn't do any work. that included, like, social activities, dances. And it wasn't the only thing that kept him apart from his classmates. In Armstrongism, Halloween, Christmas, Valentine's Day, were all considered to be pagan. So when there was school activities involving, like, holiday crafts or things like that, I always had to sit out. I made friends with a lot of, like, Jehovah Witness kids because they weren't doing it either.

Cults befriending other cults. A rarity. My grandma, out of pity, would send us boxes of Christmas presents, and my parents would mostly just throw it all out. We actually weren't supposed to celebrate birthdays either. But for some reason... My dad bought me a guitar for my fourth birthday. You know those 80s guitars?

They don't have a headstock. It's chopped off. Totally. And you string it from the bottom. Yeah. One of those new wave-looking things is really fun. Uh-huh. And I played it for hours and hours every single day.

I just basically taught myself how to do it and learned by ear. For show and tell in grade one, I brought in my electric guitar and a little portable battery-operated amp clip to my belt. And I played this song called Walk Softly by the Kentucky Headhunters. it was the first time in my life where people actually looked at me in a different light and before long like guitar became my way of like communicating because I had terrible social skills as a kid in my early teenagers I just found a drummer my good friend jesse and we wrote and jammed every single day and his house became like a sanctuary to me I could go there for hours and and leave the worries of my house behind me.

It wasn't long before my friend Jesse and I started getting invited to play at house parties. We would show up to these crazy house parties with a list of like 40 songs, like Blink 118 to some 41, whatever, good Charlotte. And we would run our list and we'd run it again until we lost our voices and everyone was blacked out or whatever. So Canadian.

Eventually, Jesse and Dan start. a band called Valor Road. We played at the school, would play school dances for our own school. We would, we headlined Canada Day for the city with like 11,000 people in this park. I was like 16 at the time. The classic rock band Nazareth was coming to town. And I get this phone call from the music store that we had a sponsorship with. And he says, Dan, what are you doing tonight? And I was like, nothing. Hi. And he says, okay, how would you guys like to open for Nazareth tonight. Sound checks in four hours. So I call her other guitarist who's working at Staples. His name's Tyler. I say, Tyler, drop everything you're doing. Do you want to open for

Nazareth tonight? As a 16-year-old, hearing that exact phrase, name and all, would have given me teenage Twitter patient. Put your hands together for Valer Rood! We got up there, and everyone at first, like, we're literally laughing at us. They were like, what the fuck? Who are these kids? And we did our thing, and it went over really, really well. But as you might imagine, Dan didn't have fans everywhere. When the church found out that I was leading this double life, moonlighting as a local rock star.

I got a lot of pushback for it because it was like I was fraternizing with demons or whatever. Demons? His supportive bandmates? His fans? I realized that the people I was told were evil were actually the most supportive people in my whole world. Like, I couldn't go to the local mall without literally signing autographs. And then I'd go home to this weird Harry Potter-looking house, cabin in the middle of nowhere. And my parents are fuming about this religion and how the world's about to end. and how everyone sucks and everyone's terrible. It was the weirdest thing.

Perhaps fortunately for Dan, his parents were pretty clueless to his Kirk Cobain alter ego. They didn't really know what I was doing. They were very disconnected. So he kept pleasing the fans and making some dough to boot, which was nice because his parents didn't have much. Actually, they had less than much because... They were giving all their money to this church

and had barely anything left to support my sister and I. My sister and I were always, always hungry. The biggest problem, too, was the way the church was structured. There was two tiths in Armstrongism. There was first tithe and second tithe. First tithe was 10% that went to the church. And second tithe was 10% that went towards saving up for the Feast of Tabernacles. The feast of what?

There was a week out of every single year that symbolized basically, the end times and Christ's return. And in the book of Leviticus, what they would do is they would go dwell in tents and basically there'd be a feast and they'd celebrate and everything. The modern day Armstrong interpretation of this was that every year the church would appoint feast sites always in vacation destinations, like Jamaica, Florida. The one we always went to was in the Okanagan and Pink Ticton and later in Colonna. Basically, all the members were saved. saving up 10% of their yearly income, at least, for these feast days. So they saved for a yearly feast, but let their children starve the rest of the year.

It's called logic. The feast would last seven days. Everyone rolled into town, and they had seven days to literally spend that money, party down, enjoy each other's company. We saved up all year long, regardless of what it did to us financially, and then we'd roll in. And the red carpet was out for this cult. All these restaurants, all these hotels were booked solid with church members. And they catered to you.

A server would come up to you and be like, are you with the church? And you'd be like, yeah. And they'd send over a dessert or something because they know that you can tip because you've been saving up all year. And then the pastors, they would use that to like inform like, you see, you see how special we are? This is what we're going to be like. We are the first fruit. We are the chosen people. Because nothing says chosen people like a free brownie overboard from Red Lobster.

That sounds really good. Whenever I was doubting Armstrongism as a kid, the feast would happen. And suddenly it would all make sense. And suddenly I didn't feel like I was so alone in Armstrongism. Suddenly I felt like, you know, hey, maybe I'll meet my wife this week. Maybe I'll make a new friend this week. And then I'd go back to Prince George and be this like isolated ranch boy. We were all pretending we were rich for one week, and then we'd go home and live in swaller.

But as Dan grew up, aspects of his life were brought into sharper focus. When I was really young, I definitely bought into Armstrongism. Then once I became a teenager, more and more of my friends started asking difficult questions. Why don't you do this? Why do you do that? One of my friends that really have like a theological grounding, his name was Tyler, he started pushing me on this stuff. And Dan's curiosity was piqued. I started looking at things from myself. I started reading the New Testament of the Bible because Armstrongism rarely dealt with the quote unquote new covenant, like the Jesus side of things.

The grace, forgiveness, all that was like non-existent in Armstrongism. And at the same time, at home, what was happening was my sister was really, really, really. turning her back on the church. She was struggling with the abuse. She was struggling with Armstrongism. She was struggling with my parents' anger. And I remember my sister was 16 when she finally dropped the C-word. My mom and sister were in this big yelling match in the kitchen, and my sister finally screamed, this is a cult. You guys are in a cult. That's C-word. That C-word. Yeah. I should have clarified.

That's when it really, like, something switched on inside me. So one day, there was this holy day. I think it was the feast of trumpets. We were having a potluck. And this lady wandered in from off the street. Just smelled the food, wandered in. And there was clearly enough food there. They didn't let her in.

Didn't let her in, didn't give her a meal, sent her on her way. So I said, sorry, this is a private function. And it hit me so hard. So he asked his dad about it. I said, let me get this straight. We believe that the only people that aren't going to burn in a lake of fire, like right now, these 12 people in here, this group right here. And all these people out here, they're all damned. And he's like, yeah, of course, that's what we believe.

And I was like, no, like, this, this, this, this, this, this. can't be true. And I was just like, I can't do this. I cannot do this. So I sat my parents down and I finally said, look, dad, I'll keep bringing you downtown because you need help getting to church. But I don't believe this anymore. As far as the internalized belief systems of Armstrongism, I had came to the conclusion of my mind already that it was a cult and that the doctrine was incorrect. My parents were just devastated because they felt like they were losing both their kids. It never occurred to them that the reason that they were quote unquote losing their kids was because they spent our entire childhood treating us like garbage and expecting us to believe

that some old dead guy had the right answers. And so just like that, Dan stopped following the group. I moved downtown, started going to college, but on the weekends, I would help my dad to the church, drive them home, come back. And I did that for a number of years. But even outside the church, life was still difficult. This whole time I was dealing with a crippling depression. My mom was getting crazier and crazier and my dad's health was going further and further downhill. My friend Tyler, who had been in the band, he met a girl and they got married. Priorities changed pretty quickly. And her name Yoko.

How many times are you going to tell that joke, Tyler? How many times are bands going to break up because someone falls in love? Probably every single band that breaks up. Yeah, probably. That's the crazy thing. They sing about love, but then as soon as they fall in love, they stop making music. Go figure. Think about everybody's first album.

It's always the best because it's always the heartbreak album, the I Have Nothing album, and then they don't have heartbreak and they get a little something. And they don't know what to sing about. Remember the old acting line. Crying is easy. Comedy is hard. It's true. It's true as evidenced on this show.

With that in mind, let's move on. Okay. She's much nicer than Yoko. He got married and they moved to Edmonton. And he was telling me, oh, there's so many jobs here. There's so many opportunities. I'm involved in this great church here. You'd love it.

You should come check it out. And Dan lit up at the idea of movies. but he still felt beholden to his father. I was overwhelmed with guilt because even after everything he put me through, I had to sit him down and say, look, I know that by leaving, I am basically condemning you to this house out in the woods on five acres that neither you or mom can really look after. Like, I know this, but I have to go.

I have to make sense of life. I have to make sense of God. And so pushing the guilt. aside, he packed up and left. I literally just crash landed in Edmonton with my guitars and was like, okay, let's try to make a go at it post-Armstrungism. But he still has a long way to go to freedom. I was a mess.

I didn't know how to make sense to the world, and it's like literally a story for another time was that the church I ended up getting involved with turned out to be the most culty church I've ever heard of. So basically I left Armstrongism, moved to Alberta, and joined a totally separate shit show. So you went from a cult to a cult? I went from a cult to a cult. Is it worth going into this? I feel like there's a lot there, but it's not really what I like approached you guys with. Okay. So while doing this interview, Dan kind of buried the lead on us a bit. We did a pre-interview, and he never mentioned that he had joined another cult after he left Armstrongism. And I asked him about it. I wanted him to go into it, and he didn't really

feel comfortable doing so. Well, because he was born into the first one. Correct. Right. And we actually have more people born in to cults ready to discuss their experience because they didn't quote-unquote join a cult. Right. But on the other hand, getting manipulated into a cult, that can be embarrassing. And until you do the work to understand the cult tactics, you feel shame. Yeah. And you don't want to admit that you were misled. Right. But once you understand that no one actually joins a cult, a lot of that shame can be released. Correct. And I told him that by him telling his story, it would help others. And he agreed. However, he was a little concerned for another reason. But I am a little interested in Dan. If you think this is worth going down that road.

They're powerful people. They're kind of scary. So I'm a little more comfortable, I guess, talking about the Armstrongism stuff. Well, perhaps we could do it without you mentioning the name of the entity. That, yeah, I could do that. I'd be comfortable with that for sure. So, oh, man, it's a whole other saga. It's a whole other thing.

Do we need to pick this up next week? Before we get back to the story, let's talk about another group that people actually want to join. And this one saves you money instead of, you know, taking it all away. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers disson. discounts, guys for paying in full, owning a home, and much more.

Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it, so your dollar goes a long way. Like, escaped the cult and now living in Portugal, long. That's long. Yeah, visit progressive.com if you want to save on car insurance. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary not available in all states or situations. Okay, so a few days after the first interview, I talked with Dan once again,

hoping to find out a little bit more about the second group that he joined. Remember, Dan did not feel comfortable giving the name of this church, so it will remain a mystery. Unless you're from Canada, Oit and a boy, and you figure it Oid on your own. In between shoveling your walks. Your hockey matches, hey. You know what? We're talking about. For Canada.

They hate us. They're so much better than us. They are. Okay, Dan McIntyre pick up. This is December 15th, 2021. Check, check, check. Pick us back up, Dan.

Take us home after you had left. Okay. Armstrongism. When I first moved to Edmonton, I was apprenticing at a cabinet shop as a kitchen designer. Since Tyler was the rhythm guitar, for my band, I rather foolishly thought that if I followed him over to Edmonton, perhaps we'd pick

up where we left off, get the band back together, and make a go at it in a bigger city. That was kind of my whole master plan. But Tyler had other plans. He was fully engaged in a church, and he invited Dan to attend. I was very hesitant about setting foot in a quote-unquote born-again Christian church. Very, very hesitant. That hesitation is. important. That is called your intuition. Trust it. But for Dan, his intuition was pushed aside because it was Tyler inviting him. It was his good friend. This is the same friend that helped him see the light about his previous cult. Please note, many people get recruited into cults by close family members and friends. So I finally bit the bullet and decided to accompany Tyler and his wife to

this church they kept raving about. Keep in mind, I came from the background of like piano one tape wearing a suit to church. So I showed up for this Sunday service and there's like a rock band on stage. And I was just like, you can do this in a church. You can play like rock music. Afterwards, all these people start coming up to me being like, oh, we're so glad you're here. We hear you a great guitarist. We hear you're a great this and that.

Palms away. That. It seemed on the surface like the exact opposite of Armstrongism. I really started thinking, like, this is the church that I was looking for. There were tons of people my age, and there were actual community service programs that helped people, fed the hungry, there was this cool, edgy youth group program. It felt like a place worth being at. I dug in, and I dug in fast.

Before I knew it, I was there basically every day, and the only friends I had all of a sudden in town were also church members. I did virtually everything they asked for me. And this was a big church as far as Canada goes. They had three services with about like five to 700 people in attendance per, so it was pretty big at the time. So the rules in this church were pretty standard fair as far as Western Christianity goes. alcohol usage was essentially forbidden no premarital sex they were really hung up on self-fulfillment like masturbation it was a big big no-no they had this thing where like all the guys in the church had to wear like elastic bands around their wrists so if they saw something that caught their

eye like a billboard or a girl in a short dress or someone attractive hit to snap the wristband snap yourself out of it they had this whole course called a the valiant man, where a bunch of the single guys in the church would show up, and then we would all get in these circles and share our stories and do a thumbs up or thumbs down if we lost self-control that week. And it was basically like a whole chorus revolving around getting guys to stop masturbating. This? Yep. Thumbs up. Thumbs down. She's giving a thumbs down. She's got one hand up and one hand down, so I don't even know. I'm going to go to the bathroom real quick.

I'll be right back. Thumbs down. And we're back. Thumbs are up. The other rule was you basically had to serve. You had to get involved in some way or another, or else you were treated like a weirdo because you weren't actively plugging in

and giving your time and energy to this place. They wanted full control of everyone's life. But Dan still wanted to strum on the old guitar. Gonna get the band back together, man. But his bandmates had a... had other goals. Tyler kept encouraging me to use my musical talents for the kingdom, so to speak. So I stepped out of my comfort zone and wrote my first Christian rock worship song.

And the church loved it. And I was welcomed onto the worship team right away. It was called Give It Back. The chorus hook was, God gave us a voice, we're going to give it back. And it was this like power pop-in, power-cordy jam of a thing. The mountain drive He built the earth's life And built the rocked sky

The older folks liked it because the lyrics were reminiscent of older hymns And the young people liked it Because it because it sounded like some 41 or switch foot or whatever was. I don't know, you know. Like, I really felt like I was in the pocket. Like, I finally found a group of people that really got what I was about and were championing my ideas. And being in the band made Dan cool to the kids. And so he got involved with the youth. There was this youth group that ran every Friday night. When I first walked through the doors,

they were averaging about 50 to 70 teens a night. And within about two years of me being there, we were seeing upwards of 500 teens a night. It became the largest youth group in Canada. It was truly awesome for a while. It basically morphed into a teenage nightclub with an altar call in the middle of it. So by about 2010, I was offered a staff position in their multimedia department at the church.

So many people came up to me and were just like, wow, we've never seen someone get asked to join staff so soon. People were treating me like the key to the future of this big church. Palms away. love bomb. However, the staff position came with two huge caveats. The first was that I signed a covenant document. It was essentially this binding contract of a job agreement. No drinking, no pre-imarital sex. Standard contract terms. Similar to the contracts, we signed with Iheart. Any staff member caught communicating with an ex-staff member or ex-member of the church would be

immediately fired. Because if you left this church, you were considered an undercurrent. You were blacklisted no matter what you had accomplished for them. Huge cult red flag, you guys. The second thing in this covenant was about submission to authority. You couldn't ask questions. If you thought something was a bit doctrinally off, it was because there was a problem with you. Huger cult red flag, folks. So I signed this covenant and then the next step was to find out what this ministry apprenticeship program was. And basically what this was was free labor for the church

with half-assed coarse material sprinkled throughout the mornings. And the hugest red flag of all. Free labor in the name of a movement or organization. Again, we see it cults making millions and yet asking their members to work for free. In fact, this one even cost him money. The enrollment fee was about $4,000. and it was 11 months full-time, so you couldn't work.

So we were given these sponsorship letters to send out to our friends and families to raise money to support ourselves over that year. And I made the foolish decision to send one to my parents thinking that they would all be stoked that I was taking this, like, Christian program. My entire family thought I was in a cult. My parents, my dad, phoned me screaming, Put your guitars in your car and drive home right now. Don't give them any of your possessions.

Come home right now. Both of us thought the other was in a cult, and neither of us thought we each were. So we were both wrong and both right at the same time. Part of that you can blame on society and why we do this show. There is still such a stereotype surrounding the word cult. In my mind at that point, a cult was still like, you know, matching sneakers and robes and, no, this isn't a cult. This is a church.

And so Dan pressed on, and he ended up raising money through some members of the church. And went headlong into this ministry apprenticeship program and my staff position. Before I knew it, I was at church from about 12 to 15 hours a day, most of the weekend. I would literally help write and plan sermons and sermon series, lead worship, make motion graphics, and produce videos, then drive home, crying, friendless and penniless, because the church only paid me enough to pay for my chorus fee and little else. The deeper I got, the more I realized there were some critical things that made this church very different than your average mainstream born-again Christian church. The biggest thing, and I can't stress this enough, was that

this church is completely controlled by one single family, just one family, and in control of millions with no oversight or direct accountability from anybody. I realized that this just doesn't happen in Western Christian churches. And for good reason, too. I mean, it's a recipe for abuse of power and cult-like behavior and spiritual manipulation. And the family, the pastoral family, groomed up people in their inner circle, myself included, into positions of extreme influence for no other reason than they liked them. And those in the inner circle had special privileges, of course.

Yes, like physical labor. Renovating their illegal rental properties, scrubbing toilets, washing their cars, or tithing, if you were one of the top tithers in the church, or otherwise you were pawns scum. And those lucky enough to be in the inner circle? Got away with everything. The youth pastors would teach personal purity, then sleep around or go clubbing and partying.

And this youth program, the largest in Canada, historically operated with zero oversight, zero accountability, and was run almost exclusively by untrained, and in a lot of cases, shady, horny young adults. Multiple is in like countless instances of sexual assault, grooming, pedophilia, racism, homophobia, mental abuse, injury, nepotism. Colt's greatest hits. So into 2011 and 12, so I've been going to the church for about three or four years. I had this pressure to perform music and write these songs. I had this pressure to make the pastor happy. Pressure to spend every waking minute at this church. Pressure to keep their secrets.

Pressure to give advice, counsel on relationships or life advice with zero training, zero resources, zero expertise. And all this work, coupled with the constant, Pressure was taking its toll, and it was wearing him down. One day in the middle of a church staff meeting, the pastor could see that I was visibly exhausted. I was pretty much my head down on the desk at that point. And he smirked, and he told me, he said out loud to the whole staff table, he said, well, take your Ativan and get back to work.

Ativan is an anti-exiety medication that Dan had told a pastor that he was taking in confidence. So he laughed in front of everyone. And a couple days later, he took me aside, half-heartedly apologized for the comment, and then just a few days later fired me. And the church immediately removed me from all teams, all of them. And to this day, it was the most cruel thing I've ever experienced in my entire life. I felt like I'd lost everything. My whole identity was tied up in this place and music, and I felt like everything was my fault.

Well, I guess I didn't take my antidepressants that day because I tried committing suicide. The biggest reference I had to suicide in my life was what my mom tried doing when I was a little little kid. I was going to do the same thing and that was basically going to be my big middle finger to my family. I took a bunch of Advil and Tylenol and started chugging wine

and immediately I got so freaked out by what I was doing had this massive anxiety attack and just started puking. I ended up in the psychiatric emergency. No one cared, no one called or visited. I literally went from staff member to psychiatric emergency and nobody cared. The devastating reality of false friendships and false relationships in cults.

And then my dad had a heart attack. So, later in 2012, I decided to head back to my hometown and look after my dad. Who, mind you, was still practicing Armstrongism? My parents' house was falling apart. It was really bad. Their van was broken down. The front ramp that we had built leading up to the front door that my dad used to get in and out was rotted through. You couldn't put weight on it.

So he'd been trapped inside the house. It was really dire. So for nine months, I worked on the place, helped my dad's recovery. The whole time I was just spun out. trying to come off of antidepressants. And after everything I did for this church, not a single person preached out to me in those nine months. That was the church policy.

After years of being instrumental in this huge church, nobody cared about me at all. So after a couple months of dealing with the optics and the reality and the social media of all of this shit, I found myself again considering taking my own life I found myself with a loaded rifle against my head

and just when he thought that this would be his last moment he had a feeling I just got this strong sense that this couldn't be the end of my story I could not let this define the rest of my life my pride, ego and worth were still connected to this place I knew how that church operated

I knew that they would have told everyone that I was just another backslider that the devil took out. And I just couldn't live with it. I told my dad, I said, look, you know, I fixed the ramp, fix the van, everything's working. I need to go back. I need to go back to Edmonton and confront this. This message is. is sponsored by Greenlight. When I was a kid, summertime meant doing nothing.

But at the same time, doing everything, building tree houses, writing bikes, making bracelets, chasing the ice cream truck, and counting pennies and dimes and nickels just to buy some candy. Yeah, but now it would take most of the afternoon just to count enough pennies to buy a candy bar. Things have changed, Liz. Today's kids, they have it easier, especially with tools like a debit card. Not just any debit card, a greenlight debit card. That's more than just a card. It's a money app that helps kids learn how to save, earn, spend wisely.

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buy it, but I said, would you like to use your Greenlight card to buy it? Your money? He considered it. And then he said, you know, no, I think I'd rather save my money and keep it on Greenlight. Yeah, it's a true story. So all of a sudden, when it's his, it has value. Yeah, absolutely. So Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and for families to navigate life together. It's no wonder millions of parents like us. and kids trust Greenlight. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills.

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Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And so I returned to Edmonton and that church in the spring of 2013. And I thought I could be the change. I really did. I had a renewed sense of vigor, but I just had to disassociate from the politics of it. And I thought that would be enough.

So Dan goes back, humbled, and Curry's favor with the leaders, the ones who fired him. And he even wrote a song about his return. I received my faith, this amazing race. I'm coming home. So I'm back in the groove. I'm eventually back on stage, leading worship.

Just like that, he's back in step. It's as if he never left, never tried to take his own life, never wound up in a psych ward with no one giving a shit. And he started working again with the youth of the church. And then one day, I was notified of a mandatory meeting that was taking place at the church for all the leaders of the youth ministry.

So I showed up, and the mood was really somber. Turns out that this is a specialist from like the RCMP, which is like the Royal Canadian Mount of Police here, to talk about inappropriate relationships. Apparently, numerous leaders had been dating underage girls. All of this was buried. No one talked about this stuff.

And Dan really had no one to talk to about it. either, until... I met this girl while volunteering at the youth summer camp. She was my age, just putting that out there based on what we just talked about. We started going on all these dates, and we fell in love. This girl had also come through the Ministry Apprenticeship Program. She had an entirely different perspective and testimony going through this church as a female. And yet, you guessed it.

It wasn't always great. We bonded really quickly over unpacking everything we were witnessing. And we had these obligations. We really felt like we were making a difference in these kids' lives. That September in 2013, my dad passed away from a second heart attack. To this day, I'm so grateful that I had those nine months with him to really, like, help him out and be there for it. after my dad's funeral I suddenly felt free of my dad's expectations and judgment and all of a sudden it was like this veil just dropped

and suddenly I could see everything clearly I could see the organization I was in I could see the approval I was looking for I could see the corruption that was happening all around me and he and his girlfriend now fiancee kept talking and unpacking everything we were witnessing. We would go for coffee or beer, and we'd sit there and just be like, are we, are we in a cult? So I started doing my own research. I started the whole Google, like, was I in a cult? Ten signs you were in a cult, 12 signs you were in a cult, five signs you might be in a cult. Oh, that ever-present magazine questionnaire just keeps getting passed around.

It's a little skanky article, a little whore of an article. I believe that's our third instance. of a magazine article helping somebody recognize signs of a cult. It was like every box I could tick it. The spiritual manipulation, the not talking to people outside the church, the absolute authority obedience to your pastor, the incredible doctrinal stuff. Like, it really started to hit me. My parents were right.

We were in a cult. We just knew it. We were done. So we stepped back and nobody talked to us, not a single person asked why we left. When I finally realized that this church that we'd been a part of for so long, was in fact a cult by very definition, I felt so defeated.

I was so depressed. I put on a bunch of weight, drank a bunch of beer, like I was miserable. Dan and his love got married, but it didn't make things easier. Like our first year of marriage together, like we were pretty unhappy people because we didn't know how to process everything that had happened. we talked a lot about having kids and I took it really seriously

I knew that if I was going to become a father I needed to make sure that I did the work and was ready and healthy to take it on. So they sought the help of a professional. We've both spent countless hours and money on therapy to recover and unpack what we were part of

and it's tough to find peace as a cult survivor. So much of my cult experience has been feeling like I was never good enough. There was always something wrong with me. But I recognize now that I did have these experiences and I live to tell the tale. And everything I have today and everything I am today is because I came out the other side of this gauntlet of just misery. I had this opportunity to be the dad I never had and to be the

best husband I can be, to be the wiser, more educated, tolerant, accepting, open, curious person. So in August of 2020, after years of counseling and different modalities, my wife and I welcomed our first child and daughter into this world. And she sure as hell is going to feel safe and loved and wanted every single day that I have breath in my lungs. And that's what I tell her every single day before putting her down for bed. I say, you're safe, you're loved, and you're wanted. Mommy's here and daddy's here. Never far away. That's my story.

Dan is now doing great. Which is so Canadian. He lives in Vancouver and works as a designer of high-end kitchen tables. And I also don't think I'll ever set foot into another church for the rest of my life. I'm so done with that. But he still loves to play music and even wrote and performed this song about his time in the church, or cult. It's called Any Given Sunday. And we'll give you a link in the show. And we'll give you a link in the show notes

so that you can listen to the song for yourself. Thank you, Dan, for telling us not one, but two cult stories. And for opening up your vault of music. That's it, folks, but join us next week for the final episode of season one. We are rushing to put it together right now for you. It is a special one. But in the meantime, you can get on our Instagram for some more bad jokes and some sparkly pictures of Liz. We'll be back. We'll be back. We promise we're coming back to you.

Can you just do it without a song? Is that possible? Thumbs up or done. Do you like that song? That's the sound of my headphones coming off. All right, Clay. Wrap it up, brother. Was I an occult as a production of I-Heart Media and his story, produced and written by the one, the only Liz Iacuzzi. And this gal Liz Iacuzzi.

Oh, sorry. And him, Tyler Mason. Executive producer is Maya Cole Howard. Supervising producer Ari Becile. Audio engineer and engineer and editor. And editor is engineer. His editor is Chandler Mays. Our publicist is Lauren Dutton Breen.

And our new studio engineer is Clay Hillenberg. What up, Clay. Welcome aboard, Clay. And our fan of the week is Mora Strepa. I hope I'm saying your name right, Mora. I'm a U-R-A, M-A, M-A-R-A, S-T-R-E-P-P-A. She is a radical musician from Nashville, Tennessee. Ooh, we have a Nashville episode coming up, Mora.

So stay tuned. And thanks for the shout-out. We appreciate it. I'm going to be.