Was I In A Cult? - [BONUS] Amy Duggar King: “Holy Disruptor”

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Today’s story isn’t about a reality TV show—though a lot of people think it starts there. In truth, it began long before the cameras, before the matching outfits and the too-perfect smiles.You know the TLC series 19 Kids & Counting—the Duggars and their seemingly perfect world built within the IBLP.But there was another Duggar—of sorts. Not a sibling. The cousin. Amy. Or as America came to know her, “Crazy Cousin Amy.”Except she wasn’t crazy. Isn’t crazy. Not even close. She just wasn’t in their cult—the IBLP. What no one saw, though, was that Amy—an only child—was surviving her own hell at home.Her new memoir, Holy Disruptor, is a story of breaking cycles, setting boundaries, and finding herself in the aftermath. Today, she joins us to talk about her journey—from the quiet terror of her childhood to life in the public eye, through the scandals that shattered her trust, and toward a life built on truth, healing, and peace… even when it means disrupting “family.”And no, she wasn’t in the IBLP, but by the end, she may just find herself wondering… “Wait—was I in a cult?”______________FOLLOW USFor more culty content, follow us on Instagram & TikTok:→ @wasiinacultFOLLOW AMY DUGGAR KINGFolly Amy @amyrachelleking Get her new memoir: Holy Disruptor — available wherever books are sold.SUPPORT THE SHOWIf you believe in what we’re doing — please rate, review, and share the podcast. It helps more than you know.And if you’d like to go a step further, join us on Patreon. You’ll get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and our gratitude for helping us keep these conversations going.→ Join us on Patreon.HAVE A CULTY STORY?We’d love to hear from you.→ [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. After Josh's scandals, that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to educate myself on this emotional whiplash that I have been going through my entire life. And like, what is truth? I had so many trust issues.

I had so many things that I really needed to disrupt. And so my book is called Holy Disruptor because you can disrupt things that are not holy. You can disrupt the things that are not healthy in order to live a better life. I'm going to pray. Welcome to Wasaina Colts. I'm Tyler Reesam. And I'm Dye. Liz isn't feeling well.

I'm not, but I'm here. I'm excited to be here. I'm Liz Ayakuzi. Drew the pain, the sickness, the phlegm. P-H-L-EG-N. Anyway. You put on the hard hat, you go to work, Liz. You know, you work a 40-hour week for a living.

I got to mind the goal. Just to send it on down the line. All right, so today's story isn't about reality TV, although we do touch on it a bit, though many may believe that's where it begins. But the truth begins long before that, because today is a story about a woman who grew up surrounded by fear disguised as love and who fought her way towards peace, one boundary at a time. Her name is Amy Dugger King. Now, you may recognize the middle name.

Yes, those Duggers, the family behind the show, 19 kids and counting. The sweet, sweet family, right? Amy was their cousin. She appeared on over 100 episodes over the course of seven years from 2008 to 2015. And she was there often. She was part of the family gatherings, but she wasn't really part of the cult. Yep, we're going to say it. The IBLP Institute in Basic Life Principles is, yes, a cult. Now come, no, no, Liz, come on. I know. If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if you have a podcast about cult, why everything looks like a cult. This one's a cult. Yeah, okay. This one's a cult. We have been getting a few people sending messages of late being like,

you guys think everything's a cult. We're like, no, just the things that are on our show. Just the things that are actually cults. Right. Right. Well, this one had all the classics. It's got the men as the mini gods. Kids, you know, are property of the father. Women are servants who don't talk. obedience, silence, a floor-length denim, long hair, short leash, the whole fundamentalist starter kit. You can get it here for 1999. You've heard it here on the show many, many times. Now, while Amy's Aunt Michelle and Uncle Jim Bob, yep, Jim Bob raised their 19 kids. Are they still counting? No, I think they're done. I read the dirt. I think, yeah. They've hit 19, Liz. Yeah. Dinner reservations are much harder with 20. Yeah, that's not a reservation.

that's an event with 20 kids the only place to let you dine is the golden corral oh man I have a secret spot in my heart I know you love you love a buffet well because I came from a large family and yes we would go to the golden corral or the chukorama as they called it in Utah I don't know if those are here no chukramas basically the same thing probably just more jello salad in Utah regardless they had big old buffets Lots of biscuits. Mm, lots of everything. I'm going to get some Mugugai pan, and it's going to be next to my roast beef.

And then next to my squash and... Squash? You're going for squash. Well, it's all there. That's what I'm saying. That's the beauty of a buffet. I can't wait for the marshmallow sweet potatoes. Mm.

We're rapidly approaching marshmallow sweet potato season. Can't wait. Enough with the nonsense. Back to the cult. So, while Jim Bob and Michelle, they raised their children under the IBLP, Amy, well, she grew up outside that world. However, she was still deeply religious, still in the same town, but living by an entirely different set of rules.

And in many ways from the outside, she looked like the, quote, free one. She could wear what she wanted. She could go to school dances. She could listen to all the single ladies, all the single ladies, all the single ladies. It was such a hit in 2008. But behind closed doors, Amy's own childhood was filled with her own fear, emotional volatility, and abuse. So when the scandals around her cousin Josh came to light, it shattered in her something deeper. Yeah, not just trust in her family's image and everything they stood for, but her personal understanding of what faith and love were actually supposed to look like.

And that moment sent Amy searching not for fame, not for attention, but for the truth. And that search became the heart of her new book called Holy Disruptor. It's a story about breaking cycles, setting boundaries, and finding your truth, your voice, your real self, the one that's been buried under years of coercion, gaslighting, and fear disguised as faith. Today, Amy, shares her story, the paralyzing fear she grew up in at home, the shiny happy people, she mistook for safety. and the moment she realized that silence was no longer an option. And while she begins this conversation, insisting that she was never part of a cult, by the end, she might just see things a bit differently. I coerce her into thinking everything in her life is a cult.

I have a hammer. You are a nail. Your cult is a nail. Your church is a nail. Your crossfoot group is a nail. I sat down for a wonderful interview with the lovely and bright and joyful and spirited Amy Dugger King. You recently wrote this book. It is really intriguing, very emotional. Writing was extremely therapeutic, but it was also extremely hard. It was the hardest project I've ever worked on. Well, first, will you just introduce yourself?

Hi, everyone. I'm Amy King. I was never a part of an actual cult, but there are some things that I have survived. But obviously, you are related. to a very famous family. To me, it's very obvious that the IVLP is a cult. But when TLC sort of

promoted the show, that was not the way they framed this lovely family. Oh, for sure. They never said that they were a part of the Institute of Basic Life principles.

They never actually put it out there. I grew up just knowing that they had a bunch of rules everywhere. And I just knew that, like, this isn't how I lived, but that's how they lived. And so I just respected it

Until I started noticing all kinds of wisdom booklets and I was reading these things, I noticed that there was a really heavy weight on the women and children. And I didn't like the things that they were teaching. And so I questioned several times, like, where does he come from? And why do you believe this way? And they didn't really answer those questions. So tell us about where you're from, where you grew up. So I'm an only child.

We grew up in Northwest Arkansas. So I grew up with 19 cousins. There was one every year, basically. They had a reality TV hit series on TLC. So your mom met your dad. Where? A Christian bookstore. I guess my mom was looking for like a Christian cassette at the time.

We went to church, loved God, all the things, but it was not a very peaceful home. Their relationship was very rocky. A lot of threats, a lot of calls to the police. It was so bad that my grandparents. moved in with us. When my mom and my dad were fighting, then it was really bad. I would literally hide in my closet. I would just turn on the music to drown out the noise and the chaos. And sometimes I'd even go on the trampoline at night. And I would just look up at the stars and literally be like, it doesn't have to be like this. One day, it doesn't have to be like this.

So my book is clearly like a full restoration, full circle story. Hey, everyone, it's Tyler. All right, quick. When you think hoodie, what comes to mind. It's probably that big bulky thing that makes up the majority of a college kids wardrobe, right? Well, you're an adult now, for God's sake. So enter Paca. That's P-A-K-A. It's made from alpaca fiber, which is softer than cashmere. It's warmer than wool. It's still breathable. It's like your favorite hoodie actually graduated college with a master's degree. In comfort, I guess. I don't know. I got one. I'm wearing it right now. It's nice. It's blue. It's soft. I love it. lightweight, it's cozy, it doesn't stretch out, and I'll be honest what happened. Last week, I put

it on for the first time, and my wife said it helped my physique. She said it made me look trimmer. That's a marriage win on both sides. Now, each hoodie is handcrafted in Peru by artisans. They actually stitched their name into the tag. Mine was made by Dina F. Thank you, Dina F, for making something so soft and comfortable. And right now, when you order your pack of hoodie, they'll throw in a free pair of alpaca crew socks, which are odor resistant, their moisture wicking, and they're also soft, plus they come with a lifetime guarantee. So, I know we tell you guys to buy stuff all the time, but these are a must. So go to go.

Go.com apparel.com slash cult. Use the code cult to get a hoodie and free socks. That's go. p-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-call-cult. You're grown up now, for God's sakes. Your hoodie should be as well. So your mom's brother is related to... My mom is Jan Bob's sister. What was their relationship like? When I was a child, when I was even a teenager, you know, we respected them. We thought they were just great parents and role models. We didn't know that there was skeleton in the closet. Did you practice growing up? I was definitely in Baptist, like,

First Babs Church. Can you describe the difference between the IBLP and what you were involved in? The IBLP has its own leader, and it's Bill Gothard, and he has man-made-up rules, because each household has the father, who can literally make up all the rules, whatever they are. So, of course, there's going to be trauma, and it's a breeding ground for all kinds of crimes, and there's no accountability that has to take place. so it can be extremely abusive very quickly. I don't believe the Baptist Church is necessarily like that. I don't feel like there's not man-made-up rules. I do think that the church as a whole should feel more like a hospital

than like a runway fashion show or a concert. But for the most of it, I do believe in the Bible. And my faith is really what has centered me in all of this. Okay, real quick, the Institute in Basic Life Print. was founded by Bill Gothard. Now, he taught that men are the leaders that a woman's highest calling was submission and motherhood and children were the property of the father.

He also taught that a large godly family was a sign of obedience and divine blessing and preached about being fruitful, blah, blah, blah. But here's the kicker about old Billy Boy. You see, he never married. The dude lived alone. He ran a compound and was later accused by over 30 women of sexual harassment.

So, yeah, that guy's the perfect person to give some parental advice. Would you ever be invited to go to service with your uncle and your cousins? I mean, yes, I was invited to the conferences every once in a while, but I did go probably about three or four times. And it was just different. You know, I wear jeans. They didn't. There was nine-day difference. It wasn't just that.

It was just our attitude, the way that I could talk. They all sounded very high-pitched, meek and mild. I just noticed really quickly that I didn't sound like them. I loved them and I respected them while I was there, but I honestly did not carry the same values, and I'm really glad that I didn't. How often did you see them growing up? I saw them three, four times weekly.

They were a huge part of my life. Back then, they were super, super close to me, but there wasn't like a whole lot of intense, deep conversation happening because they couldn't relate to the things that I was dealing with and struggling with, and I had no idea of anything in their life, really. I remember one time they were like, oh, would you like some tomatoes? And I was like, oh, I hate tomatoes. And they were like, oh, we don't say hate.

We don't say hate. And I was like, oh, sorry, you know, or like talking about TV shows. I couldn't talk about anything that, like, I watched or, like, music that I listened to. But I did love the fact of how calming, how peaceful. how relaxing it was. The kids never argued. They never cried. They never showed any kind of anger.

They weren't annoyed. There was no door slamming. There was no glass breaking. There was no tension. Well, none that she witnessed. You see, corporal punishment was central to Gothard's principles. He claimed that children are born with a rebellious spirit and must be broken early. Thus, parents were told to spank immediately and consistently, not just to correct behavior.

behavior, but tone, posture, even facial expressions. Crying was seen as an act of rebellion or self-pity. So, yeah, it's no wonder Amy saw only smiles plastered across their terrified faces. So growing up, when my dad would get angry, when there was a lot of yelling and turmoil and just a lot of confusion in my life, I really considered my cousin's house a really safe place to go. Was there a judgment? Yeah, there's definitely a feeling of being judged, of feeling like what is wrong with me, what do I feel all this pressure?

You know, when you went over there, it was definitely something where I could play rap music in my car on the way there. And then when I got there, I just turned it off and be like, okay, here comes the Amy that they know, you know. And so I felt like I did have to hide a part of myself, which is really sad looking back that I felt like I had to because I wasn't wild or crazy at all, and yet I was named that. And so the 19 kids is part of the cult's ideology, correct? So the IBOP just believes that be fruitful and multiply and any kind of contraception, anything that could prevent from having children is against God's plan for your life. So were you surprised when they kept having more? No.

Really? No. In terms of age, where do you fall in line with your cousins? So I am the oldest out of everybody. Oh my gosh. So you were like watching it all. You saw every single birth basically happening in your lifetime. Yeah. They held them all. Yeah. I mean, my mom and I went over there several times, watched kids. You know, I had a lot of play dates with them. Yeah. I mean, we definitely trust each other back then. And it was wonderful and easy and good for a long time. What was your life like? High school. I hung out with my friends. We went to the mall. It just was easy life. But I could say that I really did not. know who I was. I really struggled with my identity, given my past, with my dad, and the things that really kind of molded me and shaped me, there's a parent complex for sure. I grew up with a lot of yelling. I grew up in a lot of fear, a lot of fear. And it wasn't normal fear. It was more of like, I don't know if I'm going to survive. I don't know what he's capable of. It was really scary, actually. Was there a lot of physical abuse as well as emotional?

Um, physical abuse started happening at the end, which I explained in my book. I talk about how abusers love to wait until no one's around. That way, they can control the narrative and then make you look crazy. And also they get tired of just being emotionally abusive for so long that they are like, oh, she's going to stay quiet. You know, I can say whatever to you and hurt you in all kinds of ways. And yet you're silent. What else can I do to you? That must have been really hard. It was hard. It was hard because I had a lot of pain that I didn't express. I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to even comprehend what the heck it was. I just thought mom and dad loved each other but also hated each other sometimes, and that was love. And then I have on my other side, my aunt and uncle who just were so sweet all the time and lovey-dovey all the time.

It was very sugary, very sugar-coded. And so for me, I just was just like, what is love? Then I also had my grandparents. I literally was like, wow, they hate each other too. So I guess that's just how love is. It's give and take. You cry a lot. And then you forgive.

Then you cry a lot. Then you're scared. And then you're, you know, I just, I really thought that's how it was. It was love should be a roller coaster. Hey, listener. So I'm going to get real with you for a minute. Life currently has been rocking me a bit. I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

And my nervous system's been heightened with all the stress. stress going on. And when that's happening, I always know that I need to reset, take some time. And for me, that includes meditation. Now, my meditation comes in many different ways. And right now, Headspace the app, I have been so happy with. Their guided meditations are great. They have breathing techniques. They have little on the go moments for, you know, when you just need a quick minute to release. The best part, it's not woo-woo. It's actually backed by science. The app combines It's proven mindfulness practices with modern tools and real teachers walk you through it. I really find this to help me sleep better.

I feel calmer when I'm stressed and honestly, it just brings me back to me, you know? Sometimes I only have five minutes and Headspace meets me right where I'm at. So if you're ready to actually feel good and mean it, here's your chance. For a limited time, you can get Headspace free for 60 days. Go to headspace.com slash cult pod. That's H-E-A-D-S-P-A-C-E.com slash cult pod to unlock all of Headspace free for 60 days. Headspace.com slash cult pod. Now, as we mentioned, Amy was part of a reality show called 19 Kids and Counting.

A show, which, to be honest, neither Liz nor I have watched. But we are rare in that because it was an immensely popular show with a status. staggering 229 episodes watched by millions of people worldwide. So when the show came into being, how did you get involved? Yeah, I was just there to pick up my grandma. Just randomly one day, my grandma lived with my aunt and uncle after her husband passed away. She did like 80 loads of laundry a week for them. So I was there picking up grandma.

And I noticed when I went through the gates, I saw the trailer, I saw the big boom mics, I saw the camera crew, and I was like, oh, my goodness. So my grandma, it was very stubborn. And so I was like, hey, come outside. They're filming. She was like, no, you need to come inside. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So I already knew she had like a hidden agenda.

And so I am walking very quietly. They were all in the living room sitting with their hands on their little laps and their hair all perfect and smiling for the camera. And my uncle was explaining how Josh and Anna, who just got engaged, needed a chaperone for a date. night. I chuckled. I kind of was like, because this idea, this random crazy idea that these grown adults need a chaper for self-control. So even I didn't agree with that, clearly. The producer noticed my little moment there and came up to me and said, who are you? And I was like, I'm just the cousin. I'm going to pick up grandma. That's all I'm trying to do. And he was like, so would you like to be the chaperone for Josh Nana. And I was like, no offense to their belief. But they're

grown adults. It's their decision what happens. And he was like, oh my goodness, you're going to be TV gold. Hop on camera. And he was like, yeah. Hey, can we get a mic on Amy? And I went on camera in that exact moment. And boom, there I am. And so that was just the beginning of everything. Did you know that they were doing the show before that evening? My grandma did not tell me anything. You're like, okay, so now my family is the reality show? Yeah, one of the show's airs, and I'm on it. This is the story of my family.

We're the Duggers. That's me. I'm Michelle. There's Jim Bob, my wonderful husband, and our children. Josh is our oldest. He married Anna, and they had our first grandchildren, McKenzie, Michael, and Marcus. Then there's Jana. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, my hair looks terrible, or I need to fix my eyebrows.

oh this or oh that and then all there's all these critics everybody knows everything about me all of a sudden yeah i mean i'm in my 20s i haven't matured i haven't worked through anything 19 kids and counting ran from 2008 to 2015 and aired right in the middle of reality tv's golden age yes that voyeuristic boom that gave us the osborns rest in peace ozzie keeping up with the Kardashians and john and kate plus 8 19 kids and counting aired on tlc which originally stood for the learning channel. Does it not stand for that anymore? I think they change it to the lifestyle channel. We'll get into that. TLC, the channel was launched in 1972 by the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. And NASA. Yeah, NASA. Back then, it was all science, nature, and

medicine, you know, the kind of educational programming that us 80s kids would get stuck watching when we were home sick from school. But by the mid-90s and early odds, TLC shifted gears into the home improvement hits like trading spaces and remember this goodie, what not to wear. Still technically learning, I guess. But by the late 2000s, it morphed from home improvement to home invasion with shows like little people, big world, toddlers and tiaras, and here comes honey boo-boo. And today, it's evolved into a full-blown Carnival of Chaos, 90-day fiancé, Dr. Pipple Popper, My 600-pound life. Let's not forget sister wives.

Titles that sound like, I don't know, Simpsons parodies. Hi, I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such hit TLC shows as The Man with Half a Body. Strange love, married to the Eiffel Tower. The man with the 132 pounds, Scrotum. The woman with 40 cats.

Now, if you think we made those shows up, you are incorrect. Those are actual TLC show titles. Are they right? Yes, absolutely. they are. They really are. Stay classy, TLC.L.C.

Stay classy. Keep educating us on that learning channel of yours. Yes. It has been a long, strange trip in the name of learning. Now, to be fair, what does it matter, right? I mean, the History Channel went from World War II documentaries to what if aliens built the pyramids. And Discovery Channel went from space exploration to Shark Week every single day.

Arts and Entertainment, A&E Channel, went from theater and symphonies to hoarders and intervention. And the Food Network went from the glorious Julia Child to people screaming at each other over slightly overcooked chicken. And finally, music television MTV hasn't played music in decades. Let's have a moment of silence for MTV. Rest in peace. Hold on. Hold the silence, Rob.

You know, I did do an entire documentary about MTV. Was waiting for you to drop them? in there. He will write copy. He will write copy about everything, anything, just to make sure that he can get one of his documentaries plugged into a copy. That's nothing to do with the show. Absolutely it does. As my coworker often says, it's not germane to the story, Tyler. It's not germane. It's a good word. It's a good word. So did you quit your job to do the show or how did that? Did you have, a job? Here's the thing. So on the days that I wasn't in the show, I was a nanny, and I worked with

several families. So on some days, I'd do with the kids, and that would come back and, like, film, and then go back. It was crazy. It was a crazy wild ride for a really long time. And then, of course, on the show, I wasn't even getting paid on the show. Say that a little bit louder for the ones in the back. Yeah, it's crazy. I was not paid on the show. Not one done. So you signed a contract blindly, essentially? I did. I was very naive, young in my 20s, you know, I didn't question someone's integrity. I always thought good people were surrounding me.

But I also did not have a lawyer. It's my fault. I didn't hire a lawyer. At the time, I honestly couldn't afford one. And when did you find out you weren't getting paid on the show? One of the episodes, I was told that I was going to be doing a Noah's Art Cake one morning. They were like, yeah, it's for a birthday. We're going to feed about 50 to 60 people.

You're going to make it. And so I went around town and trying to get everything. I sent my own money on pans and all the animals and all the things you needed for this big, gigantic cake. And so I contacted my uncle afterwards and I just said, hey, can I get reimbursed for these items? I mean, it was a lot of money. It was not cheap because I had to go to like a collector store for the animals. You know, I had to have a lot of animals. Yeah, two of you've got to get two of everything.

Two giraffes, two snakes, two gorillas. He was just like, now, Amy, this is the project that you wanted to be a part of, and you should be grateful for the opportunity. And how much was your uncle making on the show? I have honestly no idea how much he made. I looked it up, even just on Google or like Chad GPT, like, hey, what could this be? And it said over $6 million was made, but I believe there was. A way more than that. But at the same time, he's not compensating his own family.

I mean, I know one of your cousins... Jill. Jill, thank you. Yeah. She outed herself. So if she's not making anything, one has to imagine. No one else is. One has to imagine.

Yeah. That's crazy, because that show was on a long time. I was on the show for like over 80 episodes. Where did you get the nickname, Crazy Amy? How did that? I just started watching the show one night. it came up above my name. And I was like, whoa, why is my nickname crazy? Like, why? I remember talking to my uncle and I said, hey, I don't like that. Why does it have to be that? And he was just

like, oh, let it go. It's fine. Just extremely dismissive. And I did not know how to stand up for myself then. You know, think about it. I was already gaslighted, lied to, manipulated by my own father. So when I got to my cousin's house, I had no idea what it meant to stand up for myself. Couldn't do it, not at all. I went along, I didn't ask questions, and I just became that character. As the show went on, did it just become normalized to have cameras on and did behaviors change? It was normalized. I mean, it was definitely cameras everywhere. I also felt like, and this is just my opinion, but I also felt they were more secretive. I definitely noticed a shift in just how they projected themselves, how they treated me, how they treated my mom. In my opinion, I felt like my uncle felt like he was

on camera even when he wasn't. It didn't seem genuine. I believe in my opinion that they just allowed my uncle to really control the narrative, who was a part of the show, who wasn't. Did fame change people? Yes, I believe that fame really changed people. And, Honestly, if I'm going to be real with you, I think fame changed me for a minute. When was the first time somebody recognized you? I was like at a store or whatever, and they came up and gave me big hugs. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this is awesome. You know, I'm hearing my 20s and I'm being recognized.

On top of that, it was when Instagram was like new and big. And so it was like perks, like free handbags. Here's this. We're this on the episode. I had all kinds of boxes being sent to me. And I just was like, oh, like this is my life now, you know. Like I said, I didn't know how to stand up for myself in any way possible. So I was like, well, if I'm going to be called Crazy Cousin Amy, I might as well embrace it.

And I might as well look good doing it. Do you think Jim Bob and his wife, Michelle, like, do you think they kept living the cult's doctrine? Or do you think it became like they're playing the role of this for this show now? Oh, no. I definitely believe that they believed in what they were doing. Even though they were getting all this commodity and all this stuff that they preached against. It wasn't on the show, though. You have to remember that. They didn't really go into their true belief system on the show. They never showed the abuse, or did they show any of that?

No, the show was extremely wholesome. And I really felt like I had to deny my own basic instincts. And like, I do believe that women have discernment. I really do. Like, we know when something is up, when something is like, we know. We're like FBI detectives, right? And, man, I knew something was up. And I said it to my mentor for years. And she would just be like, you know, I don't know what it is, but we'll find out soon enough. And when it all came crashing down, I was like, I freaking knew it. Are you kidding me?

The Dugger family facing harsh public backlash following allegations of sexual abuse involving their then-teenage son. The stars of the hit reality show 19 kids and counting revealing that as many as five young girls, including two of their own daughters were alleged victims. Now, quick context, the abuse dated back to when Josh, the oldest son, was a teen. Josh confessed to his father and his father buried that information for a year before doing anything. Eventually, church elders were brought in and Josh was sent to a so-called Christian training center run by a friend, whatever that means, which was more hard labor than actual counseling. Now, none of this came to light in the public until 2015.

Which was also the same year, the second scandal came to light. Josh was identified in the cheating website Ashley Madison's data breach. Josh then admitted to cheating on his wife and having a porn addiction. After these revelations, the show was then shut down. And finally, the third. In 2021, Josh was arrested and later convicted on federal child, pornography charges. He's currently serving more than 12 years in a federal prison. So I found out, like the rest of the world, that there were scandals in my family. I had no

idea even existed until national headlines. Can you tell us about what happened? After the first scandal with the daughters and all of that, no one would tell me anything. Nobody. The truth was so hard to find. And I just realized that if I'm going to need answers, then I'm going to go get them. and I just got in my car. Didn't think about it for two seconds. I just was like, let's go. I'm going to get these back hands. I'm going to get answers.

And I just remember I went into the house and all the girls were puddled up crying and I hugged them. We didn't talk, but they knew I was there and that I loved them. After I stayed there for a little bit, I realized I'm not there just to comfort and hug. And so Jock was in an RV and knocked on my car. the door, walked in, Anna's holding his hand. Anna is Josh's submissive wife. Lovingly on the couch, and I looked directly at him, and I just said, how long has this been going on?

He didn't have anything to say, nothing, which makes me mad. I don't like being ignored, you know, I was ignored for a really long time and silence for a really long time, so I do not like being ignored now. Probably a trigger, for sure. And so I got even louder in his face, nothing. Again, nothing. And then I finally got to a place where I was just fiery hot, red like a dragon. And I said, why didn't you touch me? How come you never tried with me? And he looked up and said, I knew better. Yeah. He started smiling like he got away with something, in my opinion. And I basically just told him that you were. are a monster and if I would have known, I would have tried to stop it with everything in me and he knew it. And that's the saddest part is that abusers know who to, who can, they can pray on and who will stay silent and who will live in fear and who won't say anything and who will

keep that shame and a secret. But I left that house feeling more like a superhero than some crazy cousin with like a really bad mindset and a hateful heart. But the problem wasn't. that this was just some one-off tragedy. No, it was the symptom of a larger culture, one that teaches obedience over safety and silence over truth. Dr. Robbie Ludwig says the Dugger family environment may have played a role.

If you live in an environment where you're an adolescent and you are somehow taught or led to believe that your sexual impulses are bad or animalistic, what do you do with those impulses? And I think that's exactly what happens. with Josh. You know, he was 14. He probably had a lot of sexual curiosity impulses. What happened is not okay under any circumstances, but I think there are reasons we need to understand. You call out your grandfather in the book. I do. I do. Yeah. It's about time someone does it. No one

has done it. I think when the whole Josh's scandals came out, my uncle put out a statement that was like he has the sins of the grandfather, you know, but he never said what they were about. Generational trauma is real. It is real. You have to look at that straight in the face and be like, what are the things that I am seeing from generation that is being passed down that I don't want in my family? And you have to have a really strong stance against the evil things that could go on and continue by standing up and being honest and open and all of that. It cuts the power. cord, just off. So important to, like, educate yourself on these narcissistic terms and tactics that they use, because, man, once you figure it out, you can see right through it.

It is a light bulb that literally goes off, and you're just like, wait a second, they're all the same. They're all the same. So when did you find out what was the real with him? It wasn't until he passed that my mom sat me down. one day after my grandma passed and said, I need to tell you some things about our family that you are not aware of at all. I was brokenhearted for her, the things and the abuse that she went through, the things that I had no idea was harboring in my mom's heart and the things that she had to heal from was just excruciating. So what did she tell you? It's at the book. I mean, I'm not going to like tell all that because it honestly is really hard to talk about you know but at the same time

there was a lot of physical abuse a lot of terrible abuse from my grandpa well we say this a lot because people don't really understand cults generally because everybody has an opinion oh that's a cult no everybody understands a cult you want to know why because everybody understands an abusive relationship you've either been an abusive relationship or you know your best friend who's in one or your father or your mother, and if you can understand an abusive relationship, you can understand a cult. Because a cult is just an abusive relationship on steroids. On a, yeah, on a larger soil. With weirder laws and more strange ideas.

Yes, they manipulate you enough to control you, where you feel like you have no power. It's taken away. It's stripped from you. And that's literally how I felt. I wasn't in the I-B-R-P cult, but I had my own cult at home. and I had my own cults with just honestly how I viewed myself. I questioned what was true, who was true, who I can talk to, what I can believe are the stories real? And so I realized that I hated myself at home. You know, I didn't think I was lovable.

Right. Yeah, crazy. Maybe I wasn't a cult and I didn't even know it. I was in two or three of them. we got her that's the title of our show was i in a cult amy

were you so man I don't know I just the voices that I would hear at night and the things that I just would play over and over

in my mind of the things that my dad would say and my grandpa would say to me and all the things I literally felt worthless

and I believe that and then on the show here I am I can't have any emotions because 19 kids and counting and the I BOP

they didn't believe in sharing any other emotions except happy and kind and godly and smiles. So I was hurting and so I wore my own mask. I almost have two lives, you know? Well, somebody said on this show, a cultic

relationship is seeking love from the one who's abusing you. Oh, it's so true. It's so true. Yeah. I say in my book, if anyone disrespects you, if anyone hurts you in any kind of way, that

not love. I actually go through narcissistic tactics and the things that I've learned that they use gaslighting, manipulation, control, financial abuse. There was a lot of different things that took place in my life. So how did you heal? How did you regain trust? My faith is huge for me. So I started looking into 1st Corinthians, I want to say 1433, I think is the verse. And it says, not the author of confusion. And I started taking that in every aspect of my life, literally, being like, okay, I've had confusion with my dad, with my mom. I've had confusion with my grandparents, with my cousins. My entire existence has been nothing but chaos and confusion. And I just realized that if God is not the author of confusion, then what I have been around is not godly. And I started

putting up boundaries that I know that are going to keep my heart safe. and keep my mind clear. And so now I filter everything. I filter people, music, TV shows, podcasts, friends, coworkers, whatever. Whoever it is in my life, whoever's around Daxton, my son, whoever's around our marriage through the filter of peace. And if there's any kind of drama or chaos, I don't welcome it. So how did that affect your relationship with your family?

Yeah, it was a type rope for a while. after the first scandal, I left their house and I hated to admit it, but I don't think I'll be back. And that was a costly choice that I made to say goodbye to families hard. A lot of people believe that like family is forever, but if family is unhealthy and toxic and there's definitely cycles of just lies and manipulation and control, then you have to do something because you're going to just continue in that. You're going to allow, what you allow in your life is going to be in your life and your children's lives and your friends' lives. It was a costly decision, but it was one that I was willing to make because I knew that the

children weren't protected. Kind of like leaving a cult. Kind of like leaving a cult. Yes. Well, if that's the case, I have left three. Yeah. No, but I mean, I'm joking, but did they cut you out too? Yeah, I was cut off too.

They realized that I was not being loyal to the family. You were no a threat because you were always a threat, right? Which is why they named you Crazy Amy. It's why they put you in a box. Not because you deserved it, but because you were a threat because you weren't controllable. Because you did show up and play the game they wanted you to for the show. And so that was safe for them. If you said something to your cousins that maybe made them think, oh.

I'm being controlled or women can have opinions, women can have a career. Right. If you were the one to start to put that, oh, that's just crazy, Amy. Right. But in Jim Bob's heart of hearts, he knew you weren't one of his daughters. You weren't indoctrinated in the way his kids were, which is always a threat. So what do you do with a threat? You belittle them, you make fun of them.

You make them feel small, right? I definitely felt small. This is my opinion. And I'm sure other people that watch the show, noticed it, but I felt like he always talked to me with a condescending tone. Always. Yeah. Always. There was like this overall feeling that don't take Amy seriously. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. As parents, we teach our kids so many things like how to tie their shoes, brush their teeth, say thank you to grandma, that the floor is not in fact

lava. And you should never put a fork in the toaster. But for some reason, most of us don't teach them financial literacy. Yeah, which is crazy, right? Because money is something that they'll deal with every single day of their life, like the toaster. Which is why we love Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money quickly, keep an eye on spending and saving, and kids start to build actual real-life money confidence. Yeah, plus Greenlight has features that help kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely, and it even has a chores function. If I had gotten an allowance transferred into my wallet for doing chores when I was younger, my room might have been clean.

Might have. Might have. No excuse for it now. I would have loved Greenlight when I was a kid. It's the easiest, most convenient way to raise financially smart kids. No wonder millions of parents and kids use it. It's the number one family finance and safety app. Yeah, so don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk-free greenlight trial today at greenlight.com slash cult. That's greenlight.com slash cult. Once again, greenlight.com slash cult. Hi, I'm Jesse Prey.

And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative-driven, and deeply researched, perfect for the true crime officinados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so-called Black Widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. So did you meet your husband while on the show? Yeah. I met him at a bar. And just hanging out one night, and he was just a friend of a friend.

And so he had no idea who I was, and I loved that. I was just this random, normal girl. When did you tell him? It wasn't until we really started. Well, so here's the thing. My husband and I were best friends for six years. Never kissed, never flirted, nothing for six years, nothing. But it wasn't until, like, he brought, I'll just be honest, he brought some tramp to a bonfire.

And I could not stand her. You know, the line brought some tramp to a bonfire. Now that should be a country song, Liz. I'm the first person to like welcome anyone and hug them and be like, hi, I'm Amy, you know. And I was like, who the hell are you? Like, uh-uh. No, you have got to go. You got to go.

And it wasn't to the point that I was just like, oh my gosh, why do I hate this situation so much? And then I realized, oh, I have feelings for this guy. And it wasn't until one night that he had a little liquid courage and was just like, whenever I look at you, I see for ever. And so we have one of the cutest love stories ever. And he actually like rescues me from abuse. He's the one that was like, hey, Amy, all this shit isn't normal. It's not normal. He really kind of woke me up and just really helps me see the light in a lot of things. And now your relationship with anybody today? I am very close with Jill and we've detingled a lot and we've worked through a lot.

As far as all the other ones, you know, I just believe boundaries are really important until maybe they can really see the truth. I'm going to stick to the boundaries. I don't really speak to them and they don't really speak to me. Well, it's hard to know which ones are in and which ones are out.

I always just say, I'm always here for you if you ever want to question what you've been taught and if you want to have an honest conversation, I'm here. And that's just where I've left it. It's open. And, you know, I see that,

maybe they can't think for themselves. And so it's really sad that people live like that. That's what colds do to you is they hinder your thing and keep you small, like you said. And they don't know your son. They don't. I'd rather protect him than allow any kind of abuse to enter his life. It's just not going to happen on my watch. Hell no.

Hell no. Hell no. Yeah. Buck stops here. That's right. So show ends. You're now rebuilding your life. A lot of rebuilding.

Every time I heard a conversation like this, it helps my self-confidence grow a little bit more. I real quick, I just want to thank you for this conversation because it really does mean a lot to me. Being able to speak candidly about this and like let my voice be heard is something I've never done before. And introducing who I really am to the world is terrifying. It's terrifying. People think that they know me. They think that, like, crazy cousin Amy is who I am. And, man, if it helps one person out there, it is worth talking about.

It's worth it. I think I just let the inner voices be the lies that I've heard for so long that I don't believe that I can do hard things. And so here, having this conversation with you, I'm just like, here I am. Oh, my gosh, I'm doing this. You can't probably tell, but I am sweating over here. And I'm just like, okay, I can, I can, every question you asked me, I'm just taking it in and just answering it truthfully, you know? Which is really hard, especially when that was beaten out of you.

Yeah. Or bad girl or rebellious heart. Did you continue to nanny or what, like, because the show stops? I was a boutique owner. I opened a store. I was there for five years. I had my child in 2019. I realized that because my mom and I had kind of a severed relationship for several years growing up,

and she wasn't necessarily there for me in my childhood, that I wanted to be there from my child. And so now I am a stay-at-home mama. How long did it take to write your book? It took about a year. It was seven months of actual writing, like, non-stop writing. What is Holy Disruptor truly at its heart about? I think really being a holy disruptor is someone who loves hard, guards harder, confronts evil head on, looks at different patterns and cycles and breaks those chains, and wants better for their life, and they want to live at peace. And I believe that you can disrupt all the things that are unhealthy, even when it's family.

You know, family can be chosen. It really can be, and that's what I've had to do. And so unfortunately, when there's toxic people in your life, that's honestly your only healthy option is to do that. And so, yeah, I hope through my book, it helps people see that boundaries are so important. Educate yourself. Go to counseling. Run to the nearest counselor and talk to them and work through all the crap you've been taught.

Question it. Question the leaders or the people that you respect and make sure they align with actual truth. I wish I had all the answers. I really do. But all I can do is just really look at my life and want different and go the opposite direction of what I've been taught and the things, you know, I'm a mom now. I have a five-year-old and I will treat him with respect and love. And I will not lay a hand on him. And neither will my husband. And so we've got this overall just, I don't know, just protection, man, over this beautiful life that. we have. And I think everybody thinks that I am writing about my cousin's story and just the story of the Duggers and just the whole scandals and all the things. And really, they, they don't know that it's actually my real life and my real experience and the things that have shaped me and mold me and made me the woman I am today and the holy disruptor that I am today. Boom, mic drop. Boom, mic drop. Yes. You've been wonderful. Oh, my goodness. I

I just want to say thank you for all those that have listened. It's been really wonderful having you on the show. So, Amy, were you in a cult? I think I was in three. I think I was in three cults. Thank you for opening my eyes, girl. They're all around us. That was wonderful.

Thank you. I enjoyed it. I really did. I loved it. Awesome. Amy's book is called Holy Disruptor. You can pick it up. You can share it.

You can pass it on to the person who needs it. We have a link to it in our. our show notes. And if today's story at any point ever felt too close to your home, please take care of yourself in the United States. You can reach Rain, R-A-I-N-N at 800-656-6-5-6-Hope or R-A-I-N-N-R-A-N-R-N-R-N-R-E-N-R-N. And the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-E-E-H-E-E-H-E-H-E-HOLG. Now, if you like this episode, please fall rate and review, it does help more people find these stories. That is, of course, after you leave your abusive husband.

Right. Or family. And if you're currently leaving something that is unhealthy and toxic and it feels hard and it feels like you're never going to get to the other side of it, we here at was an occult are cheering you on from the sidelines, knowing that you will get through this. It is not easy, but it will be so worth it. Yeah. And if it's a cult, well, you can reach out to us after you've left and you're ready to share your story. Also, we just love hearing from you all in general. Thank you all for your messages and what you write in and sharing your thoughts.

And recently, it seems like we got a little, some upset that Tyler said that our demo doesn't like Steely Dan. Yeah. Apparently, I upset some people when I said that listeners of our show don't like Steely Dan. It was proven wrong numerous times. Shout out to all the Steely Dan fans. And Tyler has since got on board the Steely Band factory, I think. No, I have not. No, he is not.

I will stay on the other side. Don't piss off our Steely Dan's fans again. You're doing so well. I think the problem, the reason why I assumed our demographic doesn't list to Steely Dan is the reason I don't like Steely Dan in some ways is because everyone expects me to be in that Steely Dan box. And I don't want to be in that Steely Dan box. Dan box. Okay, Col Leader, well, some of your, some of your followers can listen to other songs that you don't, Mr. Cult Leader, big shout out to Steely Dan fans out there.

Now, next week, we have a very special story. We spoke to a Muslim woman who lives in Malaysia, who was recruited into a Sufi cult in Jordan. Yes, the country Jordan. The leader is a white American man who converted to Islam in the 70s and eventually started this cult on a compound. in the country of Jordan. I mean, we say it all the time in this show.

You just can't make this shit up. You can try. Well, you're just inhabiting different spheres where the men are in the inner circle, the women are being targeted, you know, recopped a lot of the control, abuse manipulation, insults, all that stuff. But the men, they were just taught

to just distance themselves from all of it. Just listen to the sheikh, listen, obey him, and whatever advice, just ask him and he'll give you the right answer. answer. Now, remember everyone, we do have a Patreon page. It helps us to, in fact, make this show. You can contribute. We love the people that do. It really does help. Just a little shout out to our latest members, Jennifer Smith and Gray Al Menderes. Thank you both for your contributions. It's so kind of you, you know. I just really appreciate all of you.

And if you do get on the Patreon and you are a member, you get to see some pretty nice little goodies every once in a while, right? Sometimes we release extra content. Last week, we released some weird videos, some bonus content, if you will. And while you're on there, you can watch for our new TLC shows. Yeah, one is called 90-day D program. Hosts Liz and Tyler pair two former cold members together and give them 90 days to fall in love without joining another movement. Or Unfollow Me, the D-Programming Makeover. Where each week, a former cult member gets a new wardrobe, haircut, or therapist. Or my favorite, my cat married a dolphin.

Because why not? Or my favorite, I'm big, I'm also little. I'm fat, or I'm small, or I'm short, or I'm a hoarder, or I'm from the South. Oh, I'm TLC. Come learn with us. Those are not TLC shows, but... They should be. Okay, those are fake TLC names,

but these are actual TLC names in our credits. Was I Nicole this hosted produced and edited by Tyler. I catfish my kid, Mesaum. And Liz. I didn't know I was pregnant. Ayacuzi. That's an actual show. Yeah, it's an actual show.

This is a real show, too. It is also sound mixed and edited by Rob. Best Funeral Ever, Perra. And Greta, the Extreme Couponing, StrongQuist. What are these shows? Who's going to watch 30 minutes on people, extreme couponing? I'm not. Best Funeral Ever, literally?

Like, you're rating them? Take out your night. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. This October, fear is free on Pluto TV, with horror movie collections from paranormal activity, The Ring.

You will die in seven days. Scream. And from dusk till dawn. This is my kind of place. And don't miss the man-made nightmares in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, or the world ending chaos in 28 days later. There's something in the blood. All the scares.

All for free. Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.