Was I In A Cult? - Church of the Harvest: “WWJD? Probably Pay His Employees.”

Episode Date: October 13, 2025

Nine years. One strip-mall church. A duffel bag full of cash, a freezing pool full of goldfish, and a pastor who convinced everyone he had a direct line to God.This week, Alisha takes us inside Church of the Harvest — a charismatic California congregation that promised purpose, purity, and a path to the pulpit… but delivered something far darker.Hazing disguised as holiness, unpaid labor disguised as “discipleship,” and extreme control disguised as dating.  Because when your pastor asks you to “volunteer” full-time, pay tuition to do it, and maybe jump into a swamp at 3 a.m. to save metaphorical fish — you might just be in a cult.______________________FOLLOW USFor more cult content, behind-the-scenes chaos, and occasional sermons from our strip-mall pulpit:→ @wasiinacult on Instagram & TikTokSUPPORT THE SHOWThe best way to support our ministry of exposing culty bullshit?Rate, review, and share the pod — it’s free, legal, and no one will ask for your debit card “in faith.”If you do want to tithe a little, join us on Patreon — we promise not to call it “tuition”. You’ll get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and our undying gratitude (no altar required).→ Become a member on Patreon.HAVE A CULTY STORY?We want to hear it.→ [e-mail] Alisha:  TikTok/IG @Spillingthekoolaid & IG: @EzbakealishaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. Welcome to our show, everyone. Was I in a cult? The show about puppies? Yes, it's the show about rainbows. kittens and warm woolen mittens and snowflakes that stay on my nose and eyelashes no unfortunately

that is not what our show is about what is our show about well it's in the title that's a hint cults technically our show is about cults or as the cool people say high control or high demand groups

you know it is a lot easier to tell your grandmother whom you haven't seen in seven years it's because you were in a high demand group right instead of a cult But, guys, we've got to get over the stigma around the word cult. Because then people's shame won't be so severe. You know, and I guess in addition to snowflakes on eyelashes, that is what our show is about.

It's about helping to eradicate humiliation around something that, frankly, you got involved in, not because you were gullible or easily swayed, as the public opinion may prevail, but because you were an idealistic person who had hopes and dreams. Who perhaps just wanted to, you know, make the world a better place. But our show is also to help people spot some cult red flags as they happen. And to give our guests the survivors of these experiences a safe space to share their story. It's also about finding the light in the darkness. And a laugh and the sadness.

And proving that having been in a cult, well, it doesn't have to define you. No, it does not. It is not your whole story. We humans are far stronger than we can ever imagine. Look at us dusting off the pulpit today. Yeah, Tony Robbins. Off the stage, pal. Move over, bro. Is that a cult, by the way?

Uh, what do you think, people, listeners, Tony Robbins, cult or not? Rob's like, yes. I can't tell you how many people have come up to me when they hear that I work on a podcast about cults. They say, have you done any Tony Robbins episodes yet? There you go. So, hey, Tony Robbins, people, we want to hear from me. you. And we sure do. But also, in addition to all those things we mentioned, our show is just for people who want to hear some crazy-ass cult stories. With that, we are very excited to welcome

today's amazing and very patient guest. Yes, very patient because she has been wanting to be on our show since April, which is when we met her in-person, IRL, doing our live show in Napa, California, at the Napa Valley Streamfest. Yes. So we did this schick. It's always fun to say, schick. We did this schick called,

How Do You Know You're in a Cult? And we asked for a volunteer to come up from the audience. And she was the lucky one. The chosen one, if you will. This is how it happened. So Colts usually use certain techniques and tactics in order to get people into their culty clutches.

And we have those for you tonight. But what we do need is a volunteer, someone who maybe wants to join a quick cult. Anyone. One person. One person. Come on. That person right there. This girl. Who wants to be. Yes. Woo! Give her a round of applause. Okay. What's your name? Alicia. Alicia, where are you from?

I grew up here. You grew up here? Yeah. Until I moved to Sacramento to join a cult. Oh, good. Did you really join a cold? Seriously? What cult was it? It was called Church of the Harvest. Yeah, that sounds like a cult. Church of the harvest? Yeah. I love the names to all. These are always so creative. What did you harvest?

Soul. That makes sense. Yeah, you remember the comedian Jeff Foxworthy? Everyone does. He had that signature joke that he wore out way too much. You might be a redneck. Right, you might be a redneck. What about things like, if you've been on television more than five times describing what the tornado sounded like, you might be a redneck.

If you're in a place called the Church of the Harvest, You might be in a cult. Hi, my name's Alicia. I spent nine years in a super culty church, and I am spilling the Kool-Aid. I grew up in Napa, California. I grew up with my mom and my dad, both not being very religious. So I used to attend church every Sunday morning with one of the two grandmothers. I loved church, and I loved the idea.

of ministry, even as like a small child, that fear of not being saved was so tattooed into my brain chemistry. My parents were divorced when I was about six years old, and my mom remarried. She met a man who was in a custody case for his younger daughter. You know, he was a party animal in the 90s. And his attorney said, if you want to win this custody case, the only way you're going to do it is if you go find yourself a church. So that's what we did. We joined a church called Foothill in Napa. That church was tiny and it was Pentecostal.

And that just became like my whole personality, even as a five, six year old. We've fast forwarded to eighth grade. My church that I was attending in Napa was pastored by two pastors. They were two of four brothers, all of which were pastors. Now, one of the brothers was named Dan and he had a church. This one, the Church of the Harvest. And it was located in lovely... Citrus Heights, California, that is, an hour from Napa.

And Dan used to put on youth and kids camps that we would attend. And they used to do these very theatrical services. Kids were preaching, they were singing, and I was like, that's where I need to go. Beautiful Citrus Heights. I bet it is pretty low. lovely. I looked it up. It is not lovely.

Oh, it's not. Okay. It is funny because I asked for things. I was like, tell me some really interesting things about Citrus Heights. And it basically said, yeah. They have a nice drug store. It was like, no. Yeah.

Yeah, not a great place. It's not too far from the 12th, the best city in California. Uh, citrus heights. Sounds bright, right? It's like sun-dappled groves and orange blossoms. Except no. There were never, no, there were never any citrus crows. In fact, the name was cooked up by a real estate developer in the early 1900s who thought it, well, it sounded nice.

And it does. I feel like that's California in a nutshell, right? Give it a dreamy name and hope no one notices that it's next to a freeway. Like, for example, Silver Lake. Right. Which isn't a lake. Yeah, it should technically be silver reservoir, but that does not sound like a place you'd want to live. Or a third street in Santa Monica.

which is just, you know, an outdoor shopping mall with an urban outfitters. But they have to call it the promenade. Promenade. You know what the difference between a promenade and a street is, right? Jamba juices are $8 more. Take that, Reader's Digest. I told my parents,

I need to start attending Church of the Harvest. But it was an hour and a half away from where I lived. And I obviously can't drive. Now, just to keep track, Alicia. is but the young age of 13 at this point. In the same summer, my stepfather broke his neck in a car accident. My stepdad was a construction worker, so he could no longer go to work. My mom and my stepdad basically say, well, we're losing the house anyway.

So we packed up and moved to Citrus Heights. We were living with my mom, my stepdad, my little sister, one of my older foster sisters, and her two daughters. and someone from the church, all in a three-bedroom, condo, living on my mom's income as a preschool teacher with all of us. Nevertheless, they had a community in the Church of the Harvest. If you move your entire family to a new town because you were convinced that's where salvation lives, well, you just might be in a cult. We immediately felt like celebrities when we walked in the door.

Now, if you're picturing a gorgeous stained glass, Last laden oak door, well, you are quite mistaken. This door, dear listener, this door is more similar to one you might open at your local Chuckie cheese. Let me paint the picture for you, listeners. According to my Google searching, that door is located in the rundown outdoor Grand Oaks Shopping Center. Now, according to Google reviews, the Grand Oaks Shopping Center is known for its trash all over the

ground. This is due to a lack of adequate trash cans. According to one reviewer. Yeah, and some bingo nights. There is a delicious Mexican restaurant called Felipe's, also a decent thrift store, and a place that will harvest your soul, apparently. With a convenient supercuts to its left and autosone to its right, and right next to a massage parlor, a nail salon, and a paint store. I mean, really, it's one stop. Save your soul.

Get your nails done, shopping, extravaganza. Their signage for this church is in purple block letters. It is something you might see at a laser tag establishment. So if your church is in a strip mall, well, you just might be in a cult. And this church was huge compared to what we were coming from. They were having multiple services every Sunday, and they had other locations and all of the stuff.

And I did independent studies for my freshman and sophomore year. And because I had more flexibility in my schedule, I didn't go to high school. I was there like every day. Dan showed an interest in my life. And even though I was only a teenager, he cared about whether or not I was going to show up to camp, whether or not I was going to attend. He would always have this like word of knowledge or advice to give me. And a lot of people knew very early on that I was this great preacher and I was so charismatic and people wanted to be around me. And that meant that I was going to do such great things for God. And Dan was going to be the person that got me there. Oh, Dan the man. Here's a clip from a recent sermon. Sounds like he

was battling a cold. When's the last time you felt like the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost or the Spirit of God? It's all the same. When's the last time you felt like the Holy Spirit? Talk to you. When's the last time you were dealing with the challenging situation, and you felt the Holy Spirit stop you and go, be careful right now with what you say next. He was a youth pastor in Woodland, California, and he married Tracy, who was underage at the time, and he used to have to sign her permission slips for her to go to camp because she was not 18, and he was her legal guardian. Dan started Church of the Harvest in the late 90s,

and he had this really flashy, fun, charismatic church. He worked a lot in the prophetic, lots of speaking in tongues, and he had this, like, direct channel with the Holy Spirit. And if your leader claims to have God's personal cell phone, well, you might just be in a... Okay, we'll be doing this all episode, Tyler. Let's press the pause button on this joke, shall we?

It's so funny. My parents talk about how there would be times where they would walk into a conversation knowing that they disagreed with Dan. And by the end of it, they would walk out feeling like I was wrong all along, this guy was right, and now I'm better for it. It was almost like he had a spell over anyone he spoke to. And if you end up giving your leader the equivalent of the price of a used Jeep Wrangler, well, you might just be in a cult.

You couldn't, it was 30 seconds ago. I'm sorry. You couldn't even wait that long. It's too hard. No, it's too easy. I'm sorry, it's too easy. It's too easy. We are willing to do what other people may not be willing to do.

It would go as far as Dan says from the pulpit. I can't afford my mortgage. We're going to lose the house. When my stepdad finally got the settlement for his car accident. I want to say that was close to $20,000. Dan says that he needs $18,000 to save his home, and my parents write a check. But of course, when we hand him the check, he says, oh, there's something weird going on with my bank account. Would you mind getting me cash? And my parents went to the bank and got out $18,000 in cash. And my parents hand him a duffel bag full of cash. If your pastor who has a

direct channel to God but can't afford his mortgage and ask you to pay for it in cash in a duffel bag in an alley. Well, you might just be in a drug cartel. And a money laundering scheme. And in a cult. And it's not as if Alicia's family didn't need that duffel bag full of cash themselves because, well, they did. I mean, mind you, I was so spoiled in the sense that I had no idea how much we were struggling. I know now. I just thought we liked top ramen. I loved top ramen. and it worked for me. There's so many examples of the financial abuse that went on. Like, for example, Alicia years later, learns that Dan actually never used that money towards his mortgage.

No, it seems that around that period, he posted pictures of himself in Hawaii and at Disneyland. That's a lot of mouse ears and $8 bottles of water. Yeah, that is true. Disney charges $8 for water. It might cost you $18,000 to, go to Disneyland or World today. We'll be right back. The word underwear comes from a long line

of truly delightful words. Droars, bloomer's, pantaloons, skivies. All fun words except one of them, underwear. Underwear. It sounds like something your doctor says. How often are you changing your underwear? No one wants that word. We want undies. It's cute. It's 30. It's fun to say. Yeah, which is why me undies nailed it. They didn't just stop upgrade the name. They upgraded the entire undies experience.

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Right now, you can get cozy and spooky for less with deals up to 50% off at meundies.com slash cult. And don't forget our promo code cult guys, please. That's meundies.com slash cult. Promocode cult for up to 50% off. Embrace the undies ditch the underwear. You know, we talk a lot about cults on this show. It's actually all that we talk about, Tyler. True, but there's one that we willingly joined.

That's true. And it is the cult of comfort, you guys. Oh, nice. So nice. You see what I did there. There's no manipulation. There's no working for free for the leader. Just insanely soft bedding from bowl and branch.

It's the only cult where you're encouraged to stay in bed all day long. My bed? Full on bull and branched, right? We have hem sheets. We have the waffle blanket. I've been doing the percals. I don't know if I'm saying it right. But the percal sheets are very, actually very cooling.

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For limited time, get 20% off bed bundles plus free shipping and returns at Boland Branch. That's bowl and branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash cult. One of the reasons that I wanted to move from Napa to Church the Harvest was because they had a discipleship program. They would have these different levels where you would learn more about God and how to live a godly life. So I did my six-month junior version of the discipleship program, requiring me to work at the church, prove myself, do all of these scripture tests, all of these things.

This is three years later, and for those without a calculator at hand, Alicia is 16. After my youth masters, I realized that there was another program I wanted to join called OGs. Now, the OGs is a completely separate youth discipleship program. But the OGs, literally meaning original gangsters, was the highest level of the their Y-Dog program. You're going to find out that these people love an acronym. Acronims are like their bread and butter. So the Y-dogs are the young disciples of God, and the OGs are the original gangsters of that program. Those are the people that are preaching. They're playing music on stage. They're doing dramas. They're the popular in crowd. So I really wanted to be a part of

them. So I get invited to be OGs, but they tell me that if I want to To make it in officially, I need to go through initiation night. So I'm 16 years old, and I have my mom drop me off at the church at 11 p.m. So we all pile into this suburban, and we go through a series of things I had to do to prove myself. We had to teepe a house, and it was a friend of the pastor's house. He was like, oh, how funny. And then we went to another pastor's house who was going to be moving. away and hadn't cleaned his pool since probably the summer. The water was like black. There was

like algae. It was disgusting. And we're at two, three in the morning in December and he dumps 50 feet or goldfish into the pool and tells us these fish represent all of your family and friends who are dying and going to hell and you need to be willing to save them and tells us jump in, Save five fish. I start like hyperventilating, crying, begging them to let me do something else to prove myself. And they're like, no, we're talking like a full hazing ritual. I'm 16 years old and this grown man, the pastor of the church is telling me, no, you need to jump in. And after I think it was like 45 minutes of me begging, I finally made a deal with him that he would hold my hand as I jumped in that way, if I were to freeze up, he could pull me out.

And that's what I did. Because I really wanted to be an OG. And people were, like, cheering as I walked up the stairs. Like, you did it. You're going to be an OG, finally. If you're saving goldfish from hell at 3 a.m. Well, you might just be in a drug cartel disguised as fraternity, disguised as cult disguised as Chuckie Cheese Church.

I am all in favor of calling cult's Chuckie Cheese Churches from now on. That's a great term. The C word. The multiple C word. C, C, C. Give it, Rob. You want your fact? Come on.

Oh, yeah, yeah. My fact of the day is Chuck E. Cheese's middle name is Entertainment. So his full name is Charles Entertainment Cheese. Oh, wow. Well, Mr. Cheese, hats off to you. I'd like to think that his grandparents immigrated from France, and they were named Charles Edward Formage.

I'm going to go with the Spanish version. Carlos E. K. So the summer before my junior year, Dan announced that he wanted to open a Christian private school at the church. And of course, I had to do that. I quit independent studies so that I could join Harvest Academy School of Champions and did my last year of high school. The curriculum is called ACE, Accelerated Christian Education. And you were given these workbooks, but they were These little like 20-page workbooks that you would learn on whatever subject it was. My education of history wasn't history. It was church history. My education of government, it was church government. But Alicia valiantly did all her little work and her little workbooks and walked away with a diploma that meant absolutely nothing because it wasn't accredited. I had committed myself to this life that was.

as godly as possible. I lived above reproach. I never wanted to have a sip of alcohol. I was never going to try drugs. I was trying to save my first kiss for marriage. Dan and I are having these conversations with a 16-year-old girl who thinks she knows how to run her own life

about how I was going to eventually become the youth pastor at Church of the Harvest. I wanted to join a ministry school. So my family all went out to dinner with Dan, and he goes, you know, I decided I want to start my own ministry school here at Church of the Harvest. I want you to join my new program. It's a little more expensive, but it's going to be totally worth it. It's called Elite Academy. I heard the word of late Academy, and I was like, yes, sign me up. I don't even care. Well, Dan is not nothing, if not, an opportunistic son of a bitch,

isn't he? You know, Alicia? You know how he said you wanted to join a ministry school? Well, it's your lucky day. I just started one. Hmm, you were going to give your money to someone else. Well, guess what? I came up with my own bullshit church of bullshit academy. Here you go. It's called elite academy. Hmm. So now I'm moving into full-time ministry. And that's when really things go from I'm being doctrinized as a young teenager into I'm giving my entire life. I'm living on site. I'm eating, breathing, living ministry. Fast forward, Alicia is now 18 or 19, living on site at this made-up church school where you pay to learn about free labor, I think.

Tuition was $4,000 for the nine-month program. I would have student housing. There was me and three other girls living in one bedroom. We had bunk beds made out of plywood and two-by-fours. If you're older than seven and find yourself still sleeping on bunk beds, well, you just might be in a cult. My first day in Elite Academy, I was given the task of making sure that the event that they had planned for that evening and decided to do two hours prior was not empty. So each of the five of us students were told to go get 20 people each and bring them here. into the Lasertag church that you can also get your cash advance

that's conveniently located across from a place called Duckies' Donuts. Now, I did not grow up in this town, and we were only able to get two people out of the 100 that was required of us. When the event was a complete flop, we were brought into the pastor's office, and Dan told us that we had failed the task we were given, and now was time for our punishment. He grabbed a large Sharpie and wrote the number 20,

on each of our foreheads and told us to go do whatever Missy told us to do. And she was a heinous human being. She told us to run 20 laps in the parking lot. She told us to do 20 push-ups. She told us to do 20 jumping jacks. She told us to pick up 20 pieces of trash. Yeah, I told you that strip mall was filthy. She handed us a stack of flyers and said,

go hand out 20 flyers before you get home. That was my first day in Elite Academy. Doing the good work of Dan, I mean, God. Now, yes, we do poke fun at cults and cult leaders on this show because, well, fuck cults, right? But the truth is, these are people's real lives these self-proclaimed prophets are fucking around with. Alicia's entire family relocated so that she could follow her dream of being saved and sharing the word of God with the world. She truly believed in what she was doing. And on the other side is someone taking complete advance.

of that. I wish I could say I had some type of like daddy issues that attributed to this, but like I had two amazing fathers in my life. But Dan had some type of weird hold over me and I really wanted to be everything that he and I had said I would set out to be one day. And the thing about it was, is like he could change my life in an instant. And you were terrified of whatever disciplinary action, he may cook up. And it had to be to the letter, just blind acceptance of whatever he had to say. So there was a boy that I liked, and I wanted to start dating this boy, and he didn't approve of the relationship. So he told my peers that he didn't approve of it, and they all started to shun me. They would literally tell me that my promiscuity was the reason that they didn't want to spend

time with me anymore. Mind you, I'm already isolated from my friends and family outside of the church because I couldn't hang out with people who were known to listen to music that wasn't Christian or who were known to drink alcohol or have sex before marriage. Even my dad, who I loved because he drank beer. So I'm isolated from everyone outside of this cult. But everyone inside the cults also distancing themselves from me because I wasn't living. at a high enough level. We know you enjoy cult stories. And while we give you real ones,

sometimes it's fun to dive into some cult fiction. You know, it doesn't have all the emotional scarring. Which is why we've both been totally hooked on the prophecy. Season two, it's on Audible, it's climactic, it's cinematic, it's intense. It's got a great cast, Carrie Washington, she is Virginia, I'm mother on the run with her miracle son Joshua, And they're being hunted by Jean-Carlo Esposito, who plays a very creepy cult leader named Luther Bell. And Virginia ends up teeming with her strange husband and this mysterious believer named Moses, played by Dule Hill.

There's visions, betrayals, and all these natural disasters come crashing down all around them. And then it unravels in this epic battle between faith and fear. The kind of story that makes you forget, you're stuck in traffic. The Prophecy Season 2, highly recommend, from Yours Truly. Yes, we do. Go to audible.com. slash Prophecy 2, that's the number two, or just find it wherever you guys get your podcasts. Insurance, we all need it, so why not make a smart choice about it? Oh, I love when we reward good decisions, like listening to this podcast.

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Price is very based on how you buy. So Alicia's enrollment at whatever the fuck, this elite academy. It's so stupid elite. I can't even say it with a straight face. Yeah, if it's an elite academy, why are they sleeping on bunkers? bunk beds made out of plywood. Because they're not even learning anything. When I was at Harvard, we slept on bunk beds made out of plywood, to be fair.

That's true. You are a Harvard man, aren't you, Rob? It's true. Go Bulls. I don't think they're, I think they're the Crimson. The Harvard Crimson. The Crimson Bulls. Nope, just the Crimson.

So Alicia's enrollment at Bullshit Academy continues and continues and continues. So I'm like three or four years in to paying tuition. I was working three jobs and trying to make ends meet for my $585 rent. I think that I worked 60 hours a week for about four years. And sometimes I was being paid. Sometimes I was paying to be there. I only got one day a week off. Mondays was my day off.

And I was at the church the rest of the week from the age of 16 to, I would say, 20. thing that the church needed to keep running, whether it be website, work, design, work, video editing, or something more labor intensive if the church needed to be cleaned, if we needed to build a set for a play that was going to happen, I was the free labor. The elite free labor, of course. The expectation is I would eventually be a paid staff member, and all I had to do was help get the church to a point where it was financially stable enough to pay us. I was going to create my income because God would provide. And I look at people like Dan, he was living in this gorgeous home and providing for his three kids who never wanted for

anything. They were going out to eat four or five, six nights a week. So I assumed that would be my life. So even with all his free help, according to Dan, the church was in dire straight. So they started to fundraise using their coerced labor. I think there's a word for that. The fundraising program is where all the financial abuse comes into play, where I was going to all of these crazy events and working insane hours to fund our program because our tuition wasn't enough to fund the program. My second and third year, I was gone at least one week a month.

I wasn't aware until about three months. months ago that what I was experiencing in this fundraising program was labor trafficking. Yep, that's the word. Quick reality check on the labor stuff. In California, it's illegal to deprive someone of their liberty with the intent to obtain forced labor or services. I mean, that's literally part of the definition of human trafficking. That's under penal code 236.1.

I memorize that just in case you want to look it up. And even at nonprofits or churches, work is still work. Volunteers are allowed for charitable activities. But the Department of Labor says you generally can't, quote, volunteer for the organization's commercial operations. Those must be paid. An unpaid internship or volunteer labels don't magically erase wage rights when you're doing regular needed work. That, in fact, is called wage theft, Danny Boy. Why did we just tell Rob this? Now he's going to sue us.

Wait, people get paid for. work. You're a great volunteer, Rob. You're a great volunteer, buddy. So I would work these events or whatever, or I would work for Doug, which was one of the elders of the church who owned a logistics company. And this man, we would deliver stuff to businesses and construction sites for him. And I wasn't allowed to get a job, but two or three days a week of my time that I was supposed to be learning at Elite Academy was devoted to my time working for Doug. And whatever hours, let's say I worked eight hours for him that day, made X amount of deliveries. He would make a donation to the church instead of paying me.

Which is also highly illegal. This makes me so mad. I know. I know. Why do we keep covering these cults that are basically a front for people working so that the leader can make more money? It is so tiring and so frustrating. It's disgusting. These are like the mob.

In the state of California, if you're, you perform work, you have to be paid directly as an employee, not through church donations or prayers or pizza. That's trafficked unpaid labor. Dug. Yeah. Little sign. If your paycheck goes right to Jesus' Venmo, well, you just might. Well, no, fuck that. You're in a fucking cult. There's no more mites. You're in a cult. Right. Fair enough. But the divine douchebaggery, Well, didn't stop there. You put a period on the end of that sentence. It kept going.

It was all so confusing. I never really knew how much I was getting paid. I know that at one point I was working for Doug. I was making a delivery. I was driving during a massive rainstorm. Hydroplane went across four lanes, hit the center divide, ended up in a ditch, totaled the van I was driving. And when he pulled up on the accident, he was like, hey, are you okay?

I said, yeah, don't worry. the firefighters come and he's like, don't tell them that I'm your boss. Tell them I'm your friend. Tell them that you were moving my van so it could get smogged. I'm like, okay, I do. He puts me in his personal car. We get back to the warehouse. He hands me the keys to his car and says, well, the show must go on. Here's your list of deliveries. And I had to deliver. The next day, I was expected to show up to work for him. I do. He drives to the tow yard where the van was. And they're like, all right, it's I mean $940 to get this out. And this grown man turns and looks at me and tells me to pay them.

And I'm like, I don't have money. I'm not allowed to work. I had just at this point paid off my tuition and I was making a couple hundred dollars a month. And he's expected me to pay these people. And I'm dumbfounded. He drives me to the church and me, Doug, and Dan sit down in Dan's office. And Dan says, listen, the church can't afford to pay for this accident. But the good news is I will pay for the van to come out of impound.

Now, I understand you won't be able to pay me back very quickly. So the church will pay me back when it can. And then you can just work off your debt through the fundraising system. Now, as the dear Chris Rock once said, now I would never hit a man, ever, never hit a man. I would shake the shit out of one. Or in this case, two. Yeah, Dan and Doug.

Hey, little boys, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your mama didn't raise you right. So now I'm working odd jobs. I'm working all these things so that I can pay off my debt to Dan. You know, we often get on here and we talk about all the great things you can get at Quince. But this time, while I try and sell you, Liz, well, she's going to rattle off. some products. Quince is my go-to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and won't blow your budget. Their products are affordable, high quality, look great, fit well, because Quince

partners directly with top-tier, ethical factories, and cuts out the middleman, they deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands, and many of these things that Liz's listing, we use. It's the kind of upgrade that feels smart, stylish, stylish, and effortless, whether you're dressing yourself or your home. So find your fall staple. at quince.com slash called for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. It's now available in Canada to neighbors to the north. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash cult to get free shipping, 365-day returns. Please tell me you're finished.

Oh, I'm just getting started. The loafers, you guys. And now for the Love is Blind cult-style portion of our show. When you're in a discipleship program, your first year, you're not allowed to date. So Dan announces, we're going to do this courtship model. It's going to have three phases so that people don't fall into sin. So the way it works is you see someone from across the room. You like them.

You want to pursue a relationship with them. And you let Dan know, I'm interested in this person. If the other person felt that way as well, then they could say. separately approached Dan and say, I would like to pursue courtship with Alicia. If he felt it was a good fit, you show up and sit in his office. There was some standard rules that every couple had in their phase one. And those were, you are not allowed to talk about feelings. You are not allowed to talk about the future. No physical contact. And it should be like six months to a year and a half in this phase one, where you're just inspecting.

Like, is this person worth being my spouse? I don't know. I think that this might be someone I could see myself marrying. And he's like, all right, are you ready to fall in love? And if they both answered, then he would set a meeting for your phase two meeting. At this point, you're going to be allowed to go on dates without a chaperone. And then if the phase two is successful, then he would ask the girls, Do you think that you want to marry this person?

And she would say yes. And then he would wait for the guy to be like, I think I want to propose. And he was like, you should do it. And then they would get engaged. Phase three is engagement. Basically have the quickest engagement possible get married. So that's the way it was like laid out for us.

When love isn't about love at all, but entirely about control. Well, one of the people that did master's commission while I was in high school was a guy we will call him Chad. And as time marches on, Alicia is now in her early 20s. And I saw him across the foyer. And I was like, oh, my God, he is so fine. He was a few years older than me.

And I talked to him on social media here and there. I start kind of being like, so in case you were curious, we do this courtship thing at my church. This is how you would go about it. And then I approached Dan and said I wanted to court him. And he approached Dan. And then Dan finally sets our phase one meeting. So he gives us our rules.

We're allowed 10 text messages each per day. We're allowed to speak on the phone for 30 minutes per day. We're allowed to see each other two days a week. We're never allowed to be alone. No fiscal contact outside of a handshake or a high five. No hugs, no side hugs. And then he's like, you know what? You crazy kids seem to really be into each other.

I'll give you this freebie. You can leave each other as many voicemails as you'd like. So we used to communicate via voicemail all day long. So for about three weeks, they actually abide by these strict rules. Until the one fateful day, Chad does something so horrific, so violent. So sinful That I can't even say it out loud He tells me that he loves me

My heart just drops And I'm like I'm going to get in so much trouble for this So we get home and Dan asks So how was the weekend? Did you follow all the rules? Like well yeah But I'm also really uncomfortable Because he told me he loved me

He goes like why are you guys breaking the rules You are an elite academy You've been trained better Um controlled better I think is what you meant there Danny boy And I'm, like, worried that I'm going to get in more trouble from this. A month after that we go visit Chad for Fourth of July. It was like my whole family went up to Sonora so we could go, like, shoot guns in the woods and do redneck ship.

My set dad and I are repairing the relationship that had been broken by the fact that I had distanced myself years prior. So things were going fine. They were once again following the rules until now Alicia. Well, she does the unthinkable. Again, an act so vile, so repulsive, so sinful. I can't even say it out loud. One night, while innocently watching a movie on the couch. I rubbed his arm, and then I get home that weekend, and Dan's like, so how was the weekend?

And I ratted myself out again. And it was like, God, what are you doing? Blah, blah. You can't expect this relationship to end up in any godly way if this is how you're going to act, and I'm just, like, devastated. Now, mind you, by this point, her family had actually left this cult. They'd left over a disagreement with Danny Boy. My family's like, hey, this is getting weird.

We're really just not on board for how much control Dan has. If you want to hold hands with your boyfriend, you're allowed to hold hands with your boyfriend. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm still in phase one. And they're like, maybe if you were to accidentally kiss him, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I'm like, oh, but it would. I'm saving my first kiss for marriage. Her earnestness is palpable. It's very sweet.

It is sweet. And while I believe it's somewhat misguided, there's a certain sort of commendability in it, I suppose. I mean, it's not something I would do. I don't think you'd want to spend the rest of your life with someone until you've actually just at least kissed them. Don't give me a lizard kisser. You don't want to buy a house until you try the light switches.

Don't want to get a car until you test drive it. Don't want to buy some pants until you try them on. Don't want to choose a co-host until you've, done at least one episode with them. That's on you, Liz. I earned this job. Sometimes you just jump in and there isn't a net. Before you should.

And four years later, there still isn't a net. Now we're getting closer to like end of September, beginning of October. In my mind, I'm so close to making money. I'm an adult now. I'm going to have a marriage. I'm going to have a ministry. Like, I'm on the precipice of what I've always wanted, what I've been working for nine years.

And Dan says, so, do you think you're going to marry Chad? And I said, I wouldn't mind it. And he goes, if you did, are you going to go to Church of the Harvest? Or are the two of you going to go to his church? And he was going sometimes to one church where he lives, sometimes to Jesus culture, which is like a mega church near us. I said, I don't know. We haven't talked about it.

We're not allowed to talk about the future. And he goes, well, I think you should talk about it. So now I'm trying to talk to my boyfriend who lives two and a half hours away via 10 text messages per day and unlimited voicemails about whether or not I'm going to go to his church or he's going to go to mine if we happen to get married. And Chad kind of is like, okay, listen, I haven't talked to you about this much because I didn't think it was the right time. But I don't see myself going there. I'm not joining your cult. Uh-oh. Danny Boy is not going to like that so much.

And I'm like, okay, so then I eventually go back to Dan because he keeps bugging me. Like, well, what did you decide? What did you decide? I'm like, well, I think that if we get married, once we're engaged, we will go to his church. He goes, I don't see why you should wait. And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm running a ministry. I don't even know if I like that church.

You got to give me time. to figure that out. And he goes, sweetheart, do you even know what marriage is? If you're not ready for these kinds of decisions, are you ready for marriage? Don't fucking sweetheart me, Dan. And he starts talking to me and belittling me again. And this is like that same tactic that he would use all these years talking to me like, I was still that little 13 year old that joined the church that felt so alone. And I shrivel up into that person. And I'm just like terrified. And then he like follows it up another text message and is like, you know what, never mind. That's on you now. I think it's time for you to just transition out. And I am dumbfounded. I was still building the curriculum for this new

ministry. I was finally doing everything I wanted to do. And now I was being shooed out of the church because I wanted to be able to hold my boyfriend's hand if I wanted to as a 22-year-old. that Sunday, my plan was to go to the 9 a.m. service at Church of the Harvest, and I just didn't go. I think in the nine years that I went to Church of the Harvest, I may have missed two Sundays. So me not showing up, this was huge for me. And I was fully, like, intending to go back to church and act like nothing was wrong. Now, I found out through someone who was a close friend of mine at the time that they pulled all of my peers into Dan's office and told everyone that I left the church so that I could move in with my boyfriend. So Tuesday rolls around and I'm in the car with Chad.

We're on our way to have one of our very first dates ever. an hour later I get a text message from Dan and he says given your long history of devotion and passionate service we have no idea what is going on with you and until I can come back with a good explanation I'm relieved of my duties and I just like jaw on the floor and I look at Chad and I'm like get a little of this and I remember there was like a sigh of relief from him like yes she's out and part of me was also relieved

but also I was just in shock so nine years comes crashing down all at once I go home I disassociated for several hours I was just like staring at a wall I was so confused

I had been working so hard to be this person in ministry and now I'm nothing so leaving a cult is one kind of heartbreak but getting kicked out of one that's another entirely. And for Alicia, well, it was a complete loss of everything she had lived for and wholeheartedly believed in. And then comes the hard part, figuring out who the fuck you really are once your cult identity is stripped away.

So I started going to other churches and just slowly stopped because I didn't want to do ministry anymore. I just don't feel the same pull that I used to. everyone that was close to me in the church completely shunned me. So now I'm like, you know what? Fuck all y'all. All of you. And I was just like, done. And it also just freed me from this ideology that Dan was the be all and all.

It kickstarted this whole deconstruction journey for Chad and I. You know, at one point he watched the movie Interstellar and that changed his whole life perspective on what he believed. And at that point, all he could do was research religions. Every single week, the first week it was like, well, maybe I should find out what the Muslims believe, and then the Sikhs. And then it was Buddhism, and then it was Taoism. And then at one point told me he wanted to harness his chi so that he could move people and things. At the end of our relationship, he told me that he was a Jedi, like from Star Wars. Well, it sounds ridiculous, granted.

But if you think about it, it's really not that far-fetched. You see, the Jedi, apart from lightsabers, they have pretty much everything a religion has. I mean, there's a code, temple, there's robes, there's a hierarchy, there's counsel of elders who decide what's right and what's wrong. There's the sacred text. And there's also an invisible force that binds the universe together. May the force be with you. And also with you. See, it's just like church.

And of course, I had to ask her when they finally kissed. Clearly, she didn't wait for marriage. Oh, my God. Our first kiss story is so bad. It's so funny. I just want to preface that if my grandparents or parents hear this, I'm sorry. It's about a year after I'm fired from the church. And we started sleeping in the same bed.

And we would, like, fool around or whatever. But I still hadn't had my first kiss. And he, like, cuddles me up and gets close to me. He goes, I got to be honest with you. I want a blowjob. And I said, I've never even had a tongue in my mouth and you want me to put that in my mouth? And he's like, oh, well, you said you didn't want a kiss until marriage. I said, I think we're past that.

And he's like, okay, makes that with me for like literally 45 seconds. And then like nods down. Okay, your turn. He got the world's toothiest, most terrible minute-long blowjob. And I was like, is that what I was supposed to do? He's like, kind of. I was like, okay. Two weeks later, I lost my virginity.

And very quickly, I was like, wow, I have a sex drive. I am a Scorpio, Latino woman. And I want it all the time. And he was like, yeah, I'm not really into it. So, yeah, we can't leave everything in the final cut of these episodes, of course. But guys, Chad is a dude. and a dick, okay? He essentially told Alicia

that he wasn't attracted to her because he likes super thin women or something. So yeah, you're a dick, Chad. So they split up, fortunately. But Alicia does have one piece of gratitude for the dick named Chad. So I'm really happy that he was the means to an end and got me fired from Church of the Harvest.

But I should have cut him loose a lot earlier. We all have stories like that, Alicia. God knows I do. Please don't tell them. So when you get kicked out of a cult rather than leaving on your own, often the realization of what you were part of comes much later. When I started realizing that I was having panic attacks at the thought of running into someone from the church, I was like, yeah, that's not normal. That's not a church. That's culty.

And then at one point, I started looking up what constitutes as a cult and it hit every single checklist. And I was like, ah, shit, that was culty. I was in a cult and I just started accepting it. And I think that was very helpful in my transition into normal life. Once I got into the real world, I was like, okay, maybe ministry was just the glitz and glamoury thing of the time. Maybe I can just focus on getting this message out about not being in cults. And then I got TikTok and I started talking about the courtship process and that went viral.

So now I feel like there I have this new version of that same dream from when I was 15. I want to create a space where people who have experienced what I've experienced can have community. And I would like for anyone who considers attending Church of the Harvest to hear my warning and know that they are not doing the work of God. If that is what you believe, it looks nothing like the way Jesus taught. So then I started evaluating all these other religions, and it wasn't until I started learning about yoga and meditation, where I really fell in love with the fluidity of it all. Nearly a decade after leaving, she's now 31.

She's finally piecing together what those nine years. in the cult actually were. So I'm more and more just like anti-church. I don't really use the word God anymore. I use divinity because it's all-encompassing. This is the sense of relief that I had been searching

for all those nine years and working towards all those nine years. And it took me an additional nine and a half after to get to a point where I just accepted it. I was finally in a place where I was an. independent person doing what I wanted to do because I wanted to do it. And there was no fear of

retribution. And it wasn't hinged on any type of ideology that someone else controlled. So I didn't feel bad for wanting to kiss or have sex or have my first drink of alcohol. I still remember my first mimosa. If your first sip of prosceco and orange juice tastes like freedom, well you might just be out of a

cult. And in to brunch. And today, Alicia is crushing the life thing. And it wasn't until like the last year where I found myself just getting opportunity after

opportunity going right for the first time. And it was like I had worked my ass off and I had created a life that I am enjoying. I am a partial owner of three escape rooms and I own a social media marketing business. I'm making the most money I've ever made in my life. I'm close with my family.

I have repaired my relationship with my dad. I don't have a significant other in my life. I don't really feel the need to have one at this time in my life, and that's cool. I was so hung up on, and the idea of having to be a wife and a mother as a part of my value. And now that that's no longer part of my value, just continuing to exist really feels like enough right now. If you've relocated your entire life to attended church, handed over cash in a duffel bag, slept on plywood, bunk beds, got sharpied on the forehead, forced to catch fish in a freezing pool in the middle of the night.

Had to go through phases in a courtship with a person dictating every move, worked for free for you. while also paying tuition to a bullshit program that's someone made up driven for a company where you didn't get paid, which was illegal, and then you got in a car accident, and they made you pay to get the car out of impound and are still waiting for your graduation certificate from Elite Academy. And you thought all of this was leading to your divine purpose. Well, you were in a cult. You were in a cult. You were in a cult. You were in a cult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you were in a cult. But when you're able to come on our show and laugh about it, well, you're officially out. Amen, sister.

Amen. However, the Church of Harvest, well, it's still Harvest and salts. Although Chucky Cheese is allegedly trying to get their space back. Apparently Doug blackmailed the original owner to take it over. But now that guy died, and now the mouse. wants revenge everyone oh chuck entertainment geez carletto et promageo he's coming for you doggy and danny charles famage wants his place that's not true liz i know but it'd be so much better if it were wouldn't it might it might alicia thank you for your story and your openness we're so sorry

for everything you had to go through in this experience but we are all also so happy that you are where you are today. And we're grateful. We got to meet you. And you're sparkly and wonderful and happy. And it was such a coincidence. We met her at the wonderful Napa Valley Stream Fest. We did. We had a blast up there. It was such a fun weekend. Yeah. And to plug it, because we hope we can come back, the Napa Valley Stream Fest is, it's happening April 23rd. Tickets are on sale already. I've been to dozens. No, I actually have probably been to about $100. film festivals in my life. This was a blast. It's a festival, but it celebrates

podcasts, TV, film, social content, and wine, for God's sakes. Wine. It's just really fun. It's not stuffy, but it's really great for creatives. It's everybody attending has a blast. It's, you know. And it's just far enough away from Citrus Heights, California. Yes, it is. So grab your passes now at Napa Valleystreamfest.com. And next week, we'll be back because Because this cult also never ends. And this story is a fun one. You guys have heard of 19 kids and counting, of course, the famous Dugger family. Well, we talk to the 20th kid, Amy Dugger, who was on the show but is not one of the children, but a cousin of those 19 kids.

Known as Crazy Amy. Crazy cousin Amy. Newsflash, she ain't crazy at all. And so Josh was in an RV. walked in, Anna's holding his hand, lovingly on the couch. I looked directly at him, and I just said, how long has this been going on? He didn't have anything to say, nothing, which makes me mad. I was ignored for a really long time and silenced for a really long time,

so I do not like being ignored now. Probably a trigger, for sure. And so I got even louder. I got even louder in his face. What's I and a cult is written, hosted, produced, and edited and stuff by Liz E. Ayacuzzi. Lizzie fromageo. And Tyler, anyone know where the white cheddar is? Mm, good English sharp cheddar.

Mm, it's good on a cracker. And Roberto. Roberto I Formaggio, Pere. You can find me on a margarita pizza. And Greta, Belveda, Stromquist. This October, Fear is free on Pluto TV with horror movie collections from paranormal activity, The Ring. You will die in seven days. Scream. And from dusk till dawn.

This is my kind of place. And don't miss the man-made nightmares in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, or the world ending chaos in 28 days later. There's something in the blood. All the scares, all for free. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never.