Was I In A Cult? - Divine Madness: “Ultra Mara-con”

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

Colorado is known to draw the hippies, the free-thinkers, the adventurous… so when a group of alternative medicine devotees convinces our guest that they can cure her severe back pain, she’s open to suggestion. But soon, she finds herself sleeping in a van and questioning everything that got her to this point. Support us on Patreon!  https://www.patreon.com/wasiinacult Follow us on Instagram: @wasiinacult Have your own story and want to be on the show? Email us: [e-mail]

This episode is brought to you by a better help. I hope that with people sharing their stories and with podcasts such as this, that others can understand and realize that, number one, these things do exist, and then number two, understand where people are coming from, it's everyday people that can wind up in a place like this. It was a running club slash cult, so if you're a runner, like people were very interested in it and that was part of the appeal. And that's all good stuff, you everyone, where we do a deep dive, or I should say our guests do a deep dive into their personal experiences into and out of various cults.

Because, and this is a little reminder, there are over 10,000 active cults in America today. That's a shit ton of cults Tyler. Yes it is Liz, and with the rise of the internet, I mean many cults recruit online. My cult, I'm Liz I Cousie by the way everybody. My cult didn't recruit online, but right here in sunny Los Angeles. It started as an acting class and actually, and it morphed into this weird self-help cult. We actually heard some stories about it in season one. They're crazy and wonderful stories. My particular group, slash cult, I'm Tyler Miesum, by the way, that has been recruiting

since way before the computer was even invented. Probably even before the Abacus was invented, right, Tyler? Not really that old, but definitely since the mid-1800s. And yes, everyone, we will tell our stories, we will. We've just been so busy with all our other incredible guests that we kind of just, well, we forgot. We did, we kind of forgot. And then I need to interview Tyler, and that just just that just just that just that just that just that just just that just just that just that just that just just that just that just just that just just that just that just just that just that just that we kind of forgot and then I need to interview Tyler and that just feels kind of redundant since I talked to him all the time but we will do it guys we promise we will. And it shouldn't matter

because we have some amazing guests including today. Yes, a cult today's guest wasn't born online either and nor is it a group of Hollywood hopefuls or a typical religious cult. Yeah, when you told me the type of cult this was, I was totally thrown. Yeah, I was like, wait, what? That could be a cult? What? How? Yeah, I had never heard of this cult before. It's crazy. What's crazy is that Liz and I actually make a cameo in this episode. In our own podcast, of course, about our podcast, there's a podcast cameo in our podcast. Because we're meta like that. But again, today isn't about us. So without further ado, let's please meet today's special guest. Got your life.

Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. I am a cult survivor. I left the cults a year ago. And I'm over it emotionally, but I'm choosing to be anonymous because I'm still rebuilding my life. The aftermath of cults is a process,

and we always respect our guests and meet them exactly where they are today. So we'll call our guest, I don't know, Riley. I was thinking of something like Phoenix or Addy or Portabella. It's not a 21st century unborn child, Liz. So Portabella, it is. I was born in the late 80s. My parents were both immigrants, and my mother passed away when I was 13 from brain cancer. She was a great mother and she was a great person and she was my best friend. But that's when I was left with my father, someone who was incredibly narcissistic, incredibly

violent, incredibly abusive. I hated myself so much because I was around so much hate. Growing up in a dysfunctional family, I was wanted to feel normal. I always wanted to feel good about myself. I wanted to live the kind of experiences that others were living. I did pretty well in school, so I got accepted to a very good university.

I studied natural resources. So basically ecology, and then I graduated. I wanted to go out and become the person I had always envisioned myself to be, and what better place to do all of that than Colorado. Colorado does boast four national parks and 41 state parks. In fact, recent statistics show that 92% of Colorado residents participate in outdoor recreation each year. Of course, that is rather vague. Outdoor recreation could be getting it on in a hot tub for some a-prey ski. But regardless, they are a health-conscious bunch comparatively.

I ended up working for an outdoor rec company in Central Colorado. I did a lot of whitewater kayaking, and we were on a rafting trip, and there was two women who were our guests for this trip. And I connected with these two women and I remember being in like a outcropping with one of them and she started talking about meditation and in my very superficial brain and I was like yeah this is what people in Colorado talk about this is it like I made it. I'm on the river and I'm talktalk about. This is it. Like I made it. I'm on the river and I'm talking about meditation in a canyon.

Fuck yeah. But that's what I think of Colorado too. I mean, nobody works. They just meditate and life is great and smoke hot and let's go. Yeah. And so I really, I bonded with the both of them and then the other lady she said well I'm the manager for an organic farm in New Mexico and if you're not doing anything we'd love for you to join us and I was like well I'm not

doing anything. And I live in Colorado. I live in Colorado. The place where people don't do anything. So I basically packed up my Subaru, which is another Colorado thing. Give it to us, Tyler. Thank you. It is true. Many Coloradoans have Subaru's. It's because they're known for their all weather capabilities, right? In fact, 4.3% of all cars in Colorado are Subaru's, putting them at number five on the list of states with the highest percentage of Subaru's. People do keep stats like this. But the Centennial State Colorado pales in comparison to number one on the list,

Vermont, in which a solid 11% of all the cars in that state, Subaru's. Damn, Vermont just out Colorado, Colorado. That's hard to do. Yeah, you know, we actually have a Super true. Oh, you do? To handle all the drastic seasonal changes here in Los Angeles? Yeah, I'm sure.

To tell the world that I'm outdoorsy, I can scale a peak. It's mostly because there's a lot of room for groceries list. Really, that's more what it is. You must eat a lot. I put the bike on top of my car and I just drove down to New Mexico. And so that's how I first got connected, as fate would have it, to the community. Another farming community? But with different values, perhaps.

When I first showed up, you are 35 to 45 minutes away from the nearest town. The nearest neighbor is a mile away. It is absolutely beautiful down there. Their canyons and small rivers and plateaus and mountains. It's absolutely gorgeous. The staff house is the main house where there's a common kitchen area and then there's a common eating space. And there was about 13 people there. There was a certain kind of warmth that emanated from them. And they were into nature and they were athletic and they were all really healthy.

And my first spots were like, wow, if I can live like 80% of how these people live, maybe I'd feel like I had it together. That's much like the fallacy of every magazine cover ever. You two can have these abs if you just live like this dude. Except this guy has a bunch of personal trainers, nutritionists, and it costs about $15,000 a month to look like that. But you too can look like that. No one looks like that. Fabio looks like that. But you too can can look like that. No one looks like that. No one looks like that. Fabio looks like that. That's true. They're all very bonded because of how I grew up. I had conditioned myself that no one wants to

listen to me but these people they would just talk to you and they would be there with you and they would listen. And then they kind of put their perspective on it, like being with yourself and slowing down and being still and being quiet and being attuned with your body and self-love and self-respect and community and support. I wanted to get my brain and mental state right. And also really get to know myself and feel confident in who I am and that's all good stuff. I mean who doesn't want all that? That's why Tyler drives a Subaru. Yeah That and occasional trips to Home Depot. How's the gas mileage on a Subaru by the way? Actually it's not as bad as you'd think it's a forester so it's not the bigger ones but it's nice it's got to to to to to thiiiiiii. the thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I I I I's thi. I I's thi. I's thi. I I I I I's th. I I I I's th. I I I I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. thi. thi. thi. to thi. thi. thi. to thi. thi. thi. that's thi. that's thi. that's all that's all thi. It's a forester, so it's not the bigger ones, but it's nice.

It's got everything you need. Is it safe? What's it? We are not sponsored by Subaru. You know, I felt like I was starting to kind of live my dream in a way. So I stayed there for a month. I slept in my tent. I would get up and breakfast would be like at nine. It was communal breakfast.

And then I would be given some tasks for the day, like weeding the garden or harvesting. Then it was lunch. And then I had like free time. Then I just kind of had to be with myself. And that's one of the things that they promote is just be with yourself. They're like, yeah, you know, the world out there is kind of crazy. Well they aren't wrong there.

And who exactly is this particular group? Do they have a name? Oh, they have a name. They've had several names, actually. They go by the community, the school, in New Mexico. Back in their running heyday, they called themselves Divine Madness, but they had to get away from that because of the bad publicity that they got. With a name like Divine Madness, how could it not be a cult? It was the 70s.

The leader, Mark Tizer, he started in this small hippie town in Colorado. Raised in Philadelphia, Mark Tizer came to Boulder, Colorado in 1977. He studied Gurgiff and Zen Buddhism and Sufism. And from that created a collectivist cooperative that would live together, cook together and clean together. Sounds nice, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Sounds like it starts out really well. Sounds cooperative.

So he started off as a spiritual teacher. It was all based in personal development. And then once he kind of gained a following, he had this realization that he could promote spiritual growth through ultra-running. That's right. You're running cult people. You think you've heard it all. In 1991 Tizer witnessed a race at the University of Colorado and Boulder and wanted to access spirituality through running. So we

started training his group of followers, many of whom had never really been runners at all in long-distance races. His training methods were to say the least unorthodox, and many would say quite strict. Yeah, he would have his followers run hundreds of miles a week coupled with extreme dietary restrictions. And eventually, these runners, they started to dominate ultra-marathons. Yeah, as if marathons weren't strenuous enough, ultra-marathons

are considered anything longer than the 26-mile regular marathon. And these events can range anywhere from six hours to 10 days. Holy shit. Definitely a lot of all-star runners came of the group that are still in the group. The group was publicized in the New York Times and Newsweek, and it was very renowned and well-known in the running community. In Colorado today, a race which makes the 26-mile marathon seem like a walk in the park. It's called an ultra-marathon, 100 grueling miles. But today in Colorado Colorado a coach with questionable methods drew as

much attention as the race itself. ABC's Brian Rooney is in Leadville. One of the guys won the Leadville 100 mile race through the mountains. The winner, as expected, was 35-year-old Steve Peterson of Boulder, Colorado, who thanked, among others, and my coach and teacher. He's talking about a man named Mark Tizer, who calls himself, Yo, Tizer is the leader of the Divine Madness Ultra Club of Boulder. No doubt Tizer is a winning coach, but former followers say Tizer has turned running

from an avocation into a cult. The way he put it, in order to practice everything, it's better for everybody to be together. And it started becoming more of a community, but that was just another, you know, way to start bringing in the control. More runners eventually started moving to the community to be part of Tizer's training. And the top runners lived in a house in Boulder, while the other members lived in communal clusters of five or six people.

No wonder they were all so good. They all wanted to live in the big house. They're like, I don't have to share a toilet. I just want to live in a real house. But the cult at this point, it's smart and it has started to evolve, you know, and they've learned what kind of special thing can I make it out that's happening here for you to stay and follow the agenda to get this special thing.

But it wasn't just running they were doing. What else could they be doing besides running? Dancing and other things. On Thursday nights, the group would typically dance until sunrise at wild alcohol-fuel parties where random hookups were encouraged. Monogamy was discouraged among those in the community, and rest and nutritional intake were severely rationed. Just thinking about it makes me want a burger and a cigarette.

You're entitled to one. Most members may do with about four hours of sleep. And they would sleep on futons or mattresses laid atop bare floors. Nothing like running for 50 miles and then coming home to lay on your futon. A recent lawsuit claims that Tizer controls his disciples with a combination of sleep deprivation, sex on demand, studies of his teachings, and a daily regimen of running. Ultra-marathons have become popular with runners

in their 30s and 40s who feel they can still prove something. Yo Tizer's runners seem to have a little something extra inside. There's several techniques at the basis of the training for how to run, how to be present in your body, how to sense your body. Peterson crossed the finish line after 18 hours, 10 minutes and 45 seconds of running. Yo Tizer and his followers were there to greet him. Brian Rooney ABC News, Leadville, Colorado. Hey Tyler, how much time a week do you give to yourself? I have a four-year-old Liz. Yeah, my point exactly. It is so easy to get caught up in the needs

of everyone around us. But if we don't actually take time for ourselves, it makes everything worse. Me-time, I believe that's what they call it. I mean I know when I'm not taking enough care of myself Everything in my life suffers and if you're like me and you have trouble finding time for yourself Well, therapy can help therapy is an invaluable tool to help you not only find more balance in your life, but for me it helps me work through issues. I can't seem to work out on my own. You missed a word, Liz. There was many issues. Many issues. Through many issues. How many issues? Many.

Too many. So if you're thinking of starting therapy, try. Better help. Therapy has never been so accessible. That's because better help is entirely online and designed to fit into your busy schedule. So truly you have thue thue thue thue thue thuuiiiiiiiiiiii thue thue thu thu thu thu thu thu to tho to tho to to tho to to tho to to to to tho to to tho the the tho tho through through through through to to through through to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to work to work to work to work to work to work to work to work to work to work tho. tho. tho. tho. the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. theat. throooooooooo. tho. tho. tho. tho. to fit into your busy schedule. So truly, you have no more excuses. You set your sessions for when it's convenient for you. Simply fill out a brief questionnaire and Better Help matches you with a licensed therapist.

And if at any point you like to switch therapist, you can do so at no additional charge. So today is the day to carve out more me time. I consider therapy itself me time. So, so, so, to to to to to to to. to be a a time. I consider therapy itself me time so I'm already halfway there. Find more balance with better help. Visit better help.com slash in a cult today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help HELP.com slash in a cult. So, Divine Madness was a kind of hippie commune in the very crunchy town of Boulder, Colorado. But this cult's finish line didn't involve heaven or some faraway planet.

No, it was to reach an actual finish line of a hundred mile race through the mountains. See, I played soccer growing up and all that running. Ugh. I'm so much more of a sprinter. Like, the long distance running to me was just so boring and hard. Like, how much more of this do I have to go? Quite the opposite myself. I used to run and run and run and run. Even as a kid, I just run over to people's houses. There were 10 miles away.

And then when I got older, I competed in marathons. I went to the 800 meters in nationals, but then when I got older, I ran marathons. I have two top five finishes. You do? Uh-huh. I was addicted to the feeling. The runners high, you've heard that t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I. I'm th. I'm. I'm. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. th. the. the. the the th................................................................... I would go miles and you'd zone out. And I'd have to go, oh my god, I just ran two miles. I had no idea I was running.

So Subaru's and marathoners. Seems like you were in the wrong call, Tyler. Yeah, it does. Did you break your body? I mean, yeah, I have bad knees. And I would run through pain, and I'd call in sick to work, to run. It was a problem. Call in sick? Yeah, I was literally addicted to running. It was ridiculous. Okay, I really want to dig into that.

I think we've covered as much as we need to, especially because we have a great gasp that we keep forgetting about. You know what? Now you don't run anymore? No, now I slowly walk out to the porch to get the newspaper and make noises while I do it. Yeah, it's a young person's sport I would imagine. Oddly enough, though, a lot of the ultra-marathoners are in their 40s. It's really an old man's game. My former sister-in-law ran a hundred mile marathon.

Wow. And I paced her. The crazy thing is I paced her, so you can pace somebody who's an ultra marathon. And I ran with her for 20 miles. And they don't go at a good speed, so it's kind of slow. But we ran for 20 miles. And then I left, she had another pacer. And then I went and got a burger and had a beer and took a shower and went home and went to sleep and then woke up the next morning and went, oh my god she's still running. So that's the kind of crazy people that run these ulter marathons. Through the night, through pain, hundreds of miles, and most of the ultramarathons, in fact the majority of them

are through mountains. It's a crazy, crazy sport and these people are, they're obsessive about it. You'd have to be to be able to do that. It have to be. It's dedicated. But this group of ultra-runners was in the cult's heyday at their prime in the late 90s and early 2000s. And by the time Portabella got there, the group, the group, the group, their, thua, their, thua, thia, thulli, thulli, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was a, was a terrible name. By the time Portabella got there, the group wasn't even doing competitive running anymore. No, because most of the people living there were runners from the earlier days, but they were older now.

So they were just sort of living on the farm, working, and that kind of thing. But the group was still very much controlled. Especially their restricted food intake. So the diet was controlled, the amount of screened, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, their, tho, their, tho, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, t.. And, ta, toge, toge, toge, toge, togu.a, togu.a, togu. And, thea, togui, thi, ta, the diet was controlled, the amount of screen time was controlled, and it was all in the name of like you being healthy, emotionally and physically. You know, like you could go out into the world and you could eat with friends, but you can't drink. Like I didn't drink for two years. And so you're kind of like on a leash in that way.

The leader basically I think he owns both properties in New Mexico and Colorado and they were were th.. th. th. th. th. their th. th. th. th. their th. th. th. their thi th. their thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I toe. toe. toe. toe. toeeeeeea. toea. toeean. toea. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. Mexico and Colorado and they were paid for by members. So from what I understand the community has a pretty decent amount of money. According to a Newsweek article, members of the group donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the community over the years. It claimed that a sole member paid cash for the 160 acre ranch in New Mexico that served as the group's retreat. Another member said that she turned over a hundred thousand dollar inheritance. So more about this Mark fella. I never interacted with the leader. They call him Yo- his real name is Mark Tizer but he goes under Yosemian, which means like you see me and you or something like that.

I thought he was just this crazy dude that was like a teacher. I was like, oh, he's really good at memorizing or reciting, like all these texts that all these people are interested. They would play recordings, what they call raps from the leader., thier, thier, thiii thier, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi they they they they thi they thi, they they thi, they they they they they they thi, they they they they they they they're, they they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, and they're, and they're, like, like, like, like, and they they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're, and they're they're they're they're they're they're they're thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, theeeateateeateeateeateateeeateatee-a, theeeatee-a, theeee-a, they're thi, they're thi,s that all these people are interested, they would play recordings, what they call wraps from the leader at dinner and breakfast actually. And there were different themes that the community worked on. Most of them were pre-recorded from years ago, and this guy is basically just wasted.

I'm not even joking, like, in the recordings, there's people that have to remind him to go to the bathroom or drink water. They're like, you know, remember to drink water. Did you go to the bathroom? And you'd hear like the toilet flushing in the background, it's just like ridiculous. According to former members, Tizer apparently had a small apartment in which the toilet was the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to toilet was was to toilet was to to to to toizer apparently had a small apartment in which the toilet was set in the middle of the bedroom. Interesting.

And supposedly, whenever he was staying in a hotel, he had the door removed from the bathroom. You gotta respect a man who knows his shortcomings. I think their ultimate goal is just to have you accept him as your like spiritual leader. He's comfortable. He's gathered enough people to believe his lives and to support his lifestyle of drinking and screwing. There's this group called the Yo Ladies, then that's what they call themselves and they are people who arouse him in the morning and at night and he circulates between them and they're kind of his on-calling and their their, their kind. their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their th-cou, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their, their, their th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th-c. th-c. th-c. th-c. thi-c. thi-c. He-cuuuuu. He's thi-cuu. Hea, their, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their-a, their-cou, their-s what they call themselves and they are people who arouse him in the morning and at night and he circulates between them and they're kind of his on-call servants. He has to do it every night at like 2 a.m. And a man who knows his needs. He would take baths and the yo ladies would make sure his temperature is right and they would

have a radio on them all the time so in case he needed juice or alcohol the the the the their their their their....... their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their c. their c. their c. their c. their c. their c. their their their their their their their c. their their their c....... Heauilets. Heauilets.. Heauilets. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their c.c.culetsetsetsetsetsetsetsetsetsetsetsets. their the they would have a radio on them all the time so in case he needed juice or alcohol because he was definitely an alcoholic like he can drink but nobody else should because his brain is just so overstimulated because he has so much going on. Tizer claimed that his mind gets so overheated by the intensity of his thoughts that the only way to cool it down is by excessive amounts of alcohol. And people believed this? Apparently. That's not the most creative excuse for getting wasted. I don't know what it is. And what is going on that keeps his brain so charged? He watches TV like all day every day but nobody else can because it's

too much screen time and he thinks he can just control things with his mind. He thinks he can control his sperm with his mind. He thinks he can control like NFL players doing a Super Bowl or literally any event. Apparently he would frequently claim that he would cause a player to miss a field goal or whatever. So now we know who to blame for the 2019 Bears double doink. That actually makes it sit a little better knowing a cult leader was controlling the whole damn thing. To lose money on that one Liz? No, because I never believe in the bears.

The double doink just took it over the edge. You miss the 80s, the 80s, the 80s, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, tooom, tooom, tooom, tooom, tooom, tooom, toe, toe, toe, toe, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thea, thea, the the theauuuu. theau theau tooooooooooooooooooooooooooo doink just took it over the edge. You missed the 80s, the prime Chicago Bears era. I did. With the fridge and Walter Payton and Jim McMahon, that was fun. Yeah. Tizer also claimed in a New York Times article that he once directed energy to a Orlando magic basketball player and it made him miss two key free throws. Like cult leaders are such thi thi the ball go in the basket. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. to their. their. their. to to their. to their. their. to to their. their. their. their. their. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I' their. I their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. the. the. the. the. the. the such dicks. Why not use your special powers to make the ball go in the basket? Yeah, or maybe to solve world hunger. Wow, if you do have those special powers, you're really using it on that? Then I started picking up on more of the, like, weird stuff is more the norm.

And one of the things was in the garden that I worked at in New Mexico they used his actual shit. Part of the compost that's used in the garden is his actual feces because it's so pure that they want it put in the garden to be used for the food that they eat. But that's something I never really forgot. With good reason, that one would be hard to forget. So actually, human feces has been used for composting for centuries. Oh, has it now? Yeah it has in my research

I decided you know I researched thoroughly so I have a garden in the backyard Liz. And you took a dump in it. Only one side of it I took a dump in one side. It was so weird on one side celery started growing and then on the other side. I didn't. That's gross. Who does that? That is good. That is good. that. Why? Because because the the the the human the the human th. Because the human th. Because, th. Because, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It th. It th. It th. It has th. It has th. It has th. It has th. It has thi. It has thi. It has thi. It has thi. It has thi. It has to. It has to. It has thi. It has thi. It has thi. It has thi. It has thi. It has that? Colt leaders do that. I don't do that. Why? Because human waste carries a large amount of parasites and not to mention metals, pathogens, and pharmaceutical waste. Pharmaceutical leftovers. You definitely don't want your viagra in your radishes. No, that sounds like soil. I'm gonna grow my veggies in. So it's more

parasites than like cow manure? Yeah, very much so. That's depressing. There is a way to make human excrement safe. By composting, you turn it into something called bio-solids, but it is quite a process and it still does not ensure the safety. I appreciate the alternate word. You're like, I've said fecal matter and feces. This time I'll use excrement. What else is there? I mean, other than poop and shit,

then I'm not going to go into those words. There go my weekend plans, Tyler. I was planning on biosoliting my inner solids. Look, the long and short of this is, no, you should not, and I honestly, I don't know if I need to say it twice, but I'm going to, you should not use your own fecal matter in your garden. Just don't do it.

You've killed my buzz, Tyler. I had a good buzz, and now it's, you've killed it. It is, however, safe safeto urinate on your garden. You see, urine is rich in nitrogen and phosphorus, and it can be used to kill weeds and accelerate composting. Finally, some good news, thank you. All right, so Portabella, if that's her real name, she was slowly learning all these strange things about the man she rarely saw,

but there were some positive things occurring that overshadowedededededed thoeeoe over over over over over over over over over over over over over over over over over thos about the man she rarely saw, but there were some positive things occurring that overshadowed his oddities. I still felt like they were kooky, but I had people that unconditionally loved and supported me. And they had started to become like my family. And this goes deeper into my story, which is how I got really into the group. One day I woke up with the worst pain I've ever experienced in my entire life. It was her back.

Back pain is the worst. I lost my job because I couldn't perform work. I was in pain every single day. And then all of my over and undercompensations that I learned as a child and being like, well, all these things are happening to me because I fucking suck. And I was lost and I was hopeless. But then I reached out to a practitioner and she heard me and she didn't think I was fucked up. And she wanted to help me. So that's what drew me to the healing modality. and she heard me and she didn't think I was fucked up and she wanted to help me.

So that's what drew me to the healing modality. Her practitioner was a woman from the group that was assigned to her who was supposedly an expert on health. So they have this healing modality, and it's largely based in Chinese medicine. A lot of it is emotionally connected. So the first red flag was my practitioner. She told me to stop doing all the physical therapy exercises that I was doing. And I was like, well those actually

have really helped me, but she told me stop all physical therapy and in order to get the time and the space and the support to heal, I had to play by their rules. And I also thought I was such a shitty person that I just needed other people to guide me. So they do this thing called arm pulling, applied coniciology, which is like muscle testing. So they'll pull down on your arm, and if your muscle's like weird, then they'll be like, oh, your body's telling you like everything from take this medication

to get into this relationship to eat this banana or not. Yep, the leader would actually use this technique to tell you who to sleep with. Applied kinesiology or manual muscle testing is a technique of alternative medicine in which a practitioner, many times a chiropractor, pushes against a patient's limbs and can tell based upon how the muscles respond, what they are suffering from. See the weaker muscle responses indicate illness and a corresponding body organ and allergy or nutritional deficiency.

However, numerous double blind studies have evaluated the accuracy of applied kinesiology and found it to be no better than chance. And our superhuman Archie Bunker said he could determine everything, from muscle strength, to an emotional state, to nutritional needs, to relationship guidance, and the correct fit of a running shoe all by manual muscle testing. It's hogwash. It's hogwash. But muscle testing wasn't the only thing that they used in the group. And they also used the Chinese book of Ching's in order to make any decision. So they would ask the Ching and then they would you know flip tarot cards and then whatever reading that had that would tell them all

that they need to know. Like a magic eight ball. Yeah like heaven over earth or something like that. They would just try to consult the Ching about everything, everything from jobs to who you should sleep with, and whatever, stuff like that. And this, I'm sorry to be the wet blanket skeptic here, but turning over a deck of cards with pretty pictures on them is absolutely no way to diagnose an illness or injury. Please don't do this, and I shouldn't have to say it again, but I'm going to, please don't do this........ But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. th. th. th. th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to, to to to to th. to, to, to to, to, to, to, to to, to to to, again but I'm going to please don't do this. But it's totally fun to do on manifestation

white nights with your girlfriends when you're like making your vision boards and stuff. That I will allow but just don't diagnose your friend with pancreatic cancer because you turned over a card. Don't do that. And I was like okay whatever I need the help. So I would do sessions with my practitioner. She wouldn't do much on the physical level because it always just went back to the emotional level. There's a lot of cognitive therapy that they practice. It would always go back to something to get you more involved in the cult, basically. I had to do like mindfulness practices or I had to reach out to get you more involved in the cult, basically. I had to do like mindfulness practices,

or I had to reach out to one person a week to talk to them. Like, they all, absolutely 1,000 percent, believe that what they're doing is good and true, and that their healing modality works. But here's why it's a bit tricky, because looking at the connection between emotional imbalances and physical ones isn't a bad thing.

According to the Mayo Clinic, chronic stress puts you at a health risk. And according to WebMD, 75% to 90% of all doctors visits are for stress-related ailments and complaints. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration, that's OSHA, declared stress a hazard of the workplace. In fact, stress costs the American industry more than $300 billion annually. Liz, that's more than we make on this podcast.

So that's a fair amount. Not much. And still others claim that medical research estimates as much as 90% of illness and disease is stress related. But don't quote us on that even though I believe it. All that's to say look it's understandable why this alternative method of healing was attractive. And if you're in a ton of back pain you may be willing to try anything to fix it. Right and for Portabella, right? Portabella? Portabella? Portabella. Yes. What's going on with her back? My pain had gotten

better but I still had lingering chronic daily 24-7 pain. So what ended up happening is I had another setback just a mere two months later and it was As bad as the initial injury and I was laying there in pain and so I remember Like getting out of my tent one night and I hobbled myself to the house and then I crawled up the stairs And I found a blanket and I just laid down and I fell asleep and that morning I was like, I am not moving. I am not sleeping in my car. I'm in pain. And that was my first act of defiance, I guess.

But thankfully they set me up in a room. But when I was in the room, I started questioning everything. I was like, they told me not to do physical therapy, that's what kind of worked for me. And them. And them. And I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I was, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th.. th. the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th thea. th th th to. to. th th th th th told me not to do physical therapy, that's what kind of worked for me, and I was like freaking out in my head. And a kindly older woman walks into the room and sees our dear Portabella frozen in pain. And she said, you know what, I had the exact same injury you did. And now she's like in her 60s and she's a runner. And she's basically telling me, like, listen to your practitioner and you'll get better. And we're gonna help you through this. And so I got really vulnerable with these people because I was in so much pain.

So she continued to take health advice from her practitioner, someone who had zero medical training or schooling, who, after failing at the quackery of pulling on her arm, or turning over some playing cards to figure out her ailment, she tried another angle. Tell us how you really feel about it. I think I just did. I think I just did.

They try to figure out the root of the problem. It's always emotional. My practitioner, she said I had an emotional back ache and that it would go away in 10 days. They would like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like the the the the the the the the the the the the thenen. It doesn't then. It doesn't then. It doesn't the the th. It the thoen. She the the the thoen. She's thiauadeauauauaua. She thi. She thi. She thi. She thia. She thiauauauauauauauauauauauaua. Sheaua. Shea. Sheae. Sheae. Sheae. Sheae. Sheae. She's th. She's th. She. She's th. Shee. She's th. She's the. She's the. She's the. She's the. She's thea. She's thea. She's thea. She's tea. She's trieau. She tri. She tryea. She triea. She's triea. She's thea back ache and that it would go away in 10 days They would like dangle the carrot, but then it doesn't and then comes the other theme of oh, well You have more work to do. Oh, your trauma's just so deep my back wasn't getting better and I was getting all these like bullshit reasons why But she had to continue doing her free labor in order to pay for her keep in the community I was doing like cleaning chores, an hour of gardening a day, stuff like that. And I was there throughout the winter and I slept in this van and so they put a mattress

in there. I was trying to get better. I wasn't getting better. I was cold as shit every day. So she thinks, well maybe she needs a change of scenery. But not too big of a change within the group, of course. Of course. And so I ended up moving to the Colorado chapter. It's on three acres. There's a 1920s farmhouse. There's an old barn. There's a garden. And there's like a little studio. And there's an old barn. There's a garden and there's like a

little studio, and then there's another like cottage type house on the property. I ended up living in a room there. I can't tell you like the first time I laid down on a mattress and had a light switch and the heat came on. Oh my god. It was amazing. And two months into on. Oh my God, it was amazing. And two months into being in a warm environment, I was completely out of pain. I felt like I was a better person, but at the same time I was kind of living

how the cult members lived. I kind of had what I called the cult brain at this point. I wasn't really integrated into society and so I was very scared and I had a hell of a time finding a job and I had the safety net of living in the community. She felt stuck, which is what every cult leader's goal is to get you to feel like you can't leave even if you want to. So I actually started my own gardening business, but I wasn't making any money on the gardening company. In the winter, obviously

things slowed down, so I didn't have work. I was like, I can't do this. I need to just get my shit together, put myself out there, find a mid-higher-level position at a landscaping company. I went out there and I got the job that kind of put me more in the real world, but they still had enough control over me and other aspects. Because I would still go home every day and I would still live the lifestyle, I would still help cook, I would still, you know, talk the jargon and I would still do sessions with the practitioner

who loved and supported me, which turned out not to be true. So what about Portabella's injured back? Has it healed as they promised it would? My back, actually, a couple times a year it would tweak and so I kept going to them. They're like, it's emotional, and now I'm like, I'm not perfect, but I've done so much work, but you're still telling me it's emotional. But now I see it was like it was like, it was like, it was like, they, they, they, they they they they they's like, they, they, they's like, they's like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, like, like, they're like, like, like, they're like, they're like, they're like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, they're like, like, like, they're like, like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, like, they're like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I've done so much work but you're still telling me it's emotional but now I see it was like they just try to suppress all negative emotions as a form of control. They're like you're being really negative and so my back wasn't getting better and I was getting all these bullshit reasons why and then I had some more symptoms come up and they they seemed serious to me. I decided well I'm just going to go to go to to to to to to to to to to to to to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to to to to to to the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. tho. tho. tho. to te. te. te. te. try. try. try. I. I just just. th. I just to me. I decided well I'm just going to go to my doctor with these symptoms. So she visits her doctor who

used a Weegee board and a dousing rod to figure out what was wrong. No, this was a licensed medical professional. And she started doing some tests on me and then she looked at me and she was, how long has this been going on? And I was like, I don't know, like, a year and a half. And she was like, why didn't you come to me sooner and tell me this? And just the concern that she had, I will never forget. That was the kind of concern that I did not get from these people who claim to be experts on health and the human body.

They didn't take seriously any of the symptoms that I had, and I also realized how unscientific it was. I have seemed just based off of these arm poles, the supplied connociology. If I went to any other doctor who wouldn't be able to find this, do you think I would keep them? I, you know, realized that they couldn't and they didn't know how to help me. They just want people to believe that they can so they can continue validating this existence that they've created for themselves.

I didn't have to talk about my dad for the millionth time. I just needed to like use my glutes when I walked up the stairs. There are things on the physical level that need to be done and we have medications for good reason and there are other sources that I need to look to. That was the beginning need to look to. That was the beginning of the end. So after being in the group for over five years, she started to see the light. Then I was able to house and capsit for a friend of mine, and I was able to get away from them.

Now I had access to the internet. So she starts reading about the group she was in. Hey Siri, Google, Divine Madness. There's one article, one of the runners in the group actually did an ultra-marathon race, and he had like pneumonia, and he started like choking and then he died choking in his sleep. What she read was a 2004 New York Times article about the death of runner Mark Heineman.

Which says, quote, the group has enjoyed much success in ultra-marathons, but its charismatic leader and coach Mark Tizer has been called overly controlling by some former members. Jizella Heineman blames Tizer and the group for her son's death. They call themselves a running club, she said. It's a cult. And there was a big lawsuit about that from his family, but unfortunately they didn't have enough evidence. And I was like, knowing how much control they have over your medical stuff, I could see him being in

bad shape the night before and them doing some silly armpoles on it and saying you're going to be fine and then the next morning he ends up dead. Yeah, this is all crazy. But her Googling didn't stop there. She read a sports illustrated article that said, quote, in 1996, two former members filed a lawsuit against Tizer and Divine Madness, alleging that they inflicted emotional harm with techniques such as mandated fasting, sleep deprivation, and threats. A Newsweek article said, quote, more than a dozen of Tizer's former students now portray a manipulative, alcoholic, sex-addicted death spot who controls

nearly every aspect of his followers' lives in a sort of spiritual slavery. At some point, he got taken in by his own power, says former member Terry Bacner, 47. It became kind of a cult. Get rid of kind of, Terry, and you got it right on the nose. So then, after reading the word cult thrown around, Portabella started researching cults. And I went down a major deep dive, and I started with Jonestown.

I progressed to Waco and Children of God. And even though the cult that I was in, I mean, you wouldn't say it was as extreme as some of the others, I still started picking up on comparisons with where I'm at and these dangerous places. So I started just researching everything cult related and I came upon your guys's podcast. I would go back to the house, I would put in my earplugs, and I would put on the podcast, and it kind of kept me sane

and hearing everybody's stories, and being able to laugh about it even when I was there, the cult members were trying to engage with me, and I would pause the podcast about cults to talk to the person in the cult. It was. Oh my God. That is amazing. Yeah, no, seriously. It was one of the things that really saved me in the last couple months that I lived there,

and then from that everything kind of unraveled and I knew it was time to get out. And that's when I finally closed the chapter on how bad I felt for myself and how badly I felt about myself and it wasn't until I stood in front of the the quorum of these 25 people in Colorado and New Mexico that I finally said, I don't need the, I don't need the, the, the the, the last the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the the the the last the last. And. And the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the time. time. time. time. time. time. time. time. time. time. time. the time. time. the time. the time. the time. the the the time. the the the the the the the the the the the the the quorum of these 25 people in Colorado and New Mexico that I finally said, I don't need some fringe group to validate me or the world, goodbye. And so I left, and the first thing I did is buy pizza because you couldn't like eat pizza, right? So I remember standing there in the grocery store aisle and I was like this is what I've been missing out at. And the moral of that story is it truly is the little things. It's the next time

you indulge in pizza, gluten-free or otherwise, just remember how lucky you are. Because life isn't really about the great big hundred mile wind, as nice as that is. It's about hot pizza. And for Portabella, it's also about the lessons learned. I made the unconscious mistake of ending up in the place that I did for the pure intention of just trying to get better and be a better person and be healthier. I see it as something that I had to go through in order to get out on the other side. The universe came to me and was like, okay, here you go.

You learned your lessons, you went through this. And did I gain things? Yeah. I picked up some decent recipes. It was fun to mess around in the wilderness, but it's not worth living a lie and being around conditional love, which was exactly what I was around with my father. And I didn't need that anymore. I want to be healthy and I want to be compassionate. And I also want to have a family like a real one, not one where I have to like ration a brownie once every month. You know a big goal of mine is just the human fundamentals that I've been searching for all my life and

one of them is definitely health and self-love and having that sense of family. And as for the leader? You know what I actually don't know? I couldn't find anything out about him. I have no idea what he's doing. I think he's alive. Possibly. I don't know what he's doing. But if I were to guess, I would say that he is directing negative energy towards the New York Jets and shiting in the Arugala. We understand the process out of a cult can be overwhelming, but we are fully rooting for you, and, Tyler just muscle tested me.

Muscle gods told us, you are going to be all right, Portabella. Come on. Can we just call her, Riley? Still not her name. No. me? Muscle gods told us you are going to be all right, Portabella. Oh come on, can we just call her Riley? Still not her name. No. That's all for today guys. If you never thought there could be a running cult, well you were sadly mistaken. Yep, and I actually think this cult might have been a better one for me to have joined. I agree. With the Subaru's, the marathons, the easily accessible toiletsetsetsets. Rightes. Rightes. Rightes. Right the the the the the thets. Right thets. Right thiiiii thi thi thi. Right thi. Right thi. Right thi. Right to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th. the. the. the the the the. the the the. the the the. the. the. the. the. the. to to to the. to to to to to think this cult might have been a better one for me to have joined. I agree. With the Subaru's, the marathons, the easily accessible toilets. Right up your alley. Yep. Always wondered why your toilet was upon entry in your house.

Yeah. So easy. And join us next week, guys, Yeah, but don't fret everyone. We will be back with season three just a few weeks after that. Yes, I'm much shorter break this time, you guys. And we have a really crazy, crazy story to start season three with. Yes, but first, next week's finale is also quite fascinating. It involves a cult, everyone knows well. But this version, it's a little bit of a twist on it.

There were more Scientologists that worked in the office than we knew. There was at least one in every division. So they had somebody always listening. There was always somebody there that would report back to them. They made me the perfect follower. That's it, thank you all for listening and for all of your support. And if you haven't yet, we would really appreciate it if you took two minutes and wrote an Apple podcast review of the show.

As silly as it sounds, it truly helps support us and helps our show continue to grow. Plus it makes us feel nice and warm and fuzzy when people say nice things about us. Tyler loves his ego-strucked. Yep. The show is not an easy lift. It's a lot of work. But we love doing it. Yep. And if it brings you even one small molecule of joy,

or it helps you escape a running cult by listening to it, please share your thoughts in a review. What else we, oh, we're forgetting something. Oh, the credits, yes. Was is is isult is written, produced, and hosted by the Knight of Pentacles, Tyler Mesaim. And the Queen of Solds, Liz Ayacuzzi. Audio edit, sound design, and mix by the Ace of Cups, Rob Perra. Thank you everyone, and just to be certain, do not defecate in your garden.

But if you do, take a picture and show us what grows. Don't do that. Don't poop my life. Crucify me. Actually, if you've ever pooped in your garden, on purpose or not, write us anyways, and tell us your shit story. And perhaps we'll share it on next week's finale. We won't. No more scatigorical comedy. None. We're done. I desperately want to know your shit story, so please email it to us. Info at was I and called.com. All right, fine. Tell us about

how you poop in your garden. This is fine. We have to end this show. Yes, yeah. Pull the plug, Rob. This is the last word.