Was I In A Cult? - [ENCORE] Mormon... More Women: “My Husband’s Wife”

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

Today, we’re taking it back to where it all began: our very first episode. Meet Johanne Hanks, who went from BYU grad to plural wife to party planner for Jesus in a yuppie Mormon doomsday group called The True and Living Church. You know… TLC.Faced with the fear of an impending apocalypse, Joanne and her husband move to a small Utah town to live "Mormonism on steroids", which means wearing long underwear, communicating with the dead, prophetic visions, odd temple rituals, cookies with Jesus, and the law of celestial marriage (aka polygamy). We’ll be back next week with one of the OG MLMs… May Kay. Pucker up for that one.Come see us LIVE at the Napa Valley Streaming Festival!Johanne’s Book: “It’s Not About the Sex, My Ass”Follow us for more culty content: @wasiinacultSupport the show: If Was I in a Cult? has impacted you, please rate and review us—it truly helps! And consider joining our Patreon for ad-free episodes and a cult-free community.Have a story of your own? We’d love to hear it. Reach out to us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If you're looking to streamline your audio advertising buys and maximize your revenue, look no further than Triton Digital's Programmatic Audio Advertising Exchange, A2X. The private exchange consists of only licensed broadcasters and top-tier internet radio publishers, assuring the quality inventory and brand safety you can trust. Visit www.tritondigital.com to learn more. Hi everyone, I'm Liz Iacuzzi. And I'm Tyler Meesom. And this is, Was I in a Cult? Was I in a Cult? No, we have to say it together. I tried, I tried.

And this is, Was I in a Cult? Was I in a Cult? Oh my God. Just fix it Rob, make us say it together. Let's try it one more time. Ready Rob, one, two, three. Was I in a Cult? Nailed it, look at us now,

we are so evolved, so polished. Not really. But speaking of evolution, guys, we are taking a little trip down memory lane today. Yeah, that's right. So this week we had to heal some sick kids, catch up on production so we could keep bringing you some new episodes every Monday

without completely pulling all of our hair out, just most of my chest hair, which I don't really need to be honest. Actually, nobody needs your chest hair. No, it doesn't keep me warm. I can't really do anything with it. So I've been pulling it out to keep you guys happy. Now your back hair, that's what's really important. Yeah, there is a reason for it. Evolution has given us back here for a reason and by God, I'm going to keep it. What are we talking about? This show! I know!

So it turns out, yes, we do need a little one-week break. We just finished our tenth episode of this season. I don't know how we did it, but we did it. And apparently this show is a lot of work, turns out. We joke about Rob Hofton editing on weekends and sometimes right up until launch, adding those unnecessary but delightful sound effects for your listening pleasure, which sometimes he sneaks past us at the last hour before we can approve, which is fine for him. Right.

Editor's Note. Liz is over there busy. She's talking to guests. She's doing interviews. I mean, without busy. She's talking to guests. She's doing interviews. I mean, without her, there'd be no guests. Sometimes I'm writing things too. Sometimes. That's true.

There would be no guests without me, but there would be a lot more dudes. That is true. And Greta, Greta. Shout out to Greta. She is our newest team member. She has been, thank God for Greta, organizing all of the interviews beautifully. And then, you know, Tyler swoops in to perfect the edit, add his incredible facts and sprinkle his Misa magic.

The Misa magic. I like how you paused before, incredible facts. I think you really wanted to- Well, I was just like, I just gotta, I'm gonna give homage to you today, Tyler, with your- Thank you, Liz, very kind of you. And folks, we do it because we love it and because these stories, well, they're important

and they're worth telling. So with that, we will be back next week with a sparkly, juicy, glow-up MLM classic, a Mary Kay story. Get your lipstick out for that one, gentlemen. Today we are going way back, way back, way, way, way back to our very first episode. And I think that's as far back as we can go and I have no memory of this episode or if it's good or how we sounded. I may have recorded this in a closet.

I don't have a clue. Yeah, yeah, I was in a closet as well. Now I'm out of it. Figuratively, no, literally, literally I'm out of a closet, not figuratively, but yeah, it, it, you're out of the closet of the community of men with tons of back hair. He had just outed himself today.

That's right. It's a big closet. community of men with tons of back air. He had just added himself today. It's a big closet. It's a big grand ballroom of a closet. I didn't even know Liz. I didn't even met her in person when we did this episode. It was pandemic. I was living in Salt Lake. She was in LA. We had never met in person when we recorded our first episode. That is so weird. I think it was like 20 episodes before we met in person, but it's still a good episode. It slaps. Whatever that means, I have to stop reading the lines that Liz just writes for me. I should probably read them in advance. But you do it so well, Tyler.

Yep. So we gentle everyone. We were baby podcasters with just a dream, a couple of mics, wished to help people, give some hope, some inspiration, maybe read a few ads for Underarm Deodorant, sneak in a few inappropriate jokes about prophets and planets. And don't forget, a plethora of white male rock references. Oh, so many more to come, folks. So many more.

And four years later, here we are, still standing humbled and grateful that most of that has come to fruition. I don't know if I'm grateful about the rock references that have slowly taken over this cult podcast, but hey, I'm here for it, Tyler. And you guys, cue the very serious music here, Rob. We love you guys.

You are our steadfast listeners. You are a special group of humans. And I don't mean that in a cult leader-y way, but it's weird. We make this podcast every week and we may never meet you or know that you even listen to us. You might be in Australia or Europe or even Latvia. But we feel- Which is part of Europe actually, so.

Right, right. So Europe. You wrote that, you wrote that. If you don't hate us by now, Europe. I did, I did, I threw that curve ball in. All right, Bogota, how about that? They're in Bogota. Okay.

You might be in Australia or Europe or even Bogota. Where is Bogota? Columbia, it's in Columbia. It's the capital of Columbia. You might be in Australia or Europe or, I don't know, Bogota, but we feel your support and we appreciate you so very much. Yeah, and speaking of appreciation, we are doing our first live show this April in Napa.

Holy shit, that's in one month. We better start. Prepping. Preparing. It's at the Napa Valley Streaming Festival. It's a pretty cool event. The lineup is fantastic. It actually is going to be a great weekend, you guys.

Yeah. And if you're in Napa or the San Francisco area and you have a wild story and you want to be our guest for this live show, or you even want to take a little road trip, email us today. Info at wasiandacult.com. Like now, just pause this, email us if you have a good cult story and you don't mind being on stage. It'll be super fun. You'll get to just make fun of Tyler the whole episode.

It's a really, speaking from experience, it's really enjoyable. Yeah, that's certainly why people would pay money to go sit in a theater to watch. People mock me. That's good quality programming. Get off your couch for that one. The details for this festival will be in our show notes. NapaValleyStreamFest.com is the website. So with that, everyone, we're gonna take you now back in time with a story that,

well, let's just say it starts at BYU and ends with sanses, plural wives, and a dinner party for Jesus, with of course, lots of roast beef because- Jesus loves roast beef. Jesus loves roast beef, guys. He does. It's still one of my favorite stories of all time, if beef because Jesus loves roast beef. Jesus loves roast beef guys. He does. It's still one of my favorite stories of all time if not one of my favorite episodes. It's the Holy Trifecta. We have a hilarious storyteller Joanne Hank. She

takes us along on her journey into and out of a yuppie polygamy Mormon sect called the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days. Also known as TLC which sadly sadly no, does not stand for T-Bah's left eye and chili. Do you even know the reference? Nope, I don't. He doesn't. Keep him white. Keep him in the closet in white. Joanne's story is somehow heartbreaking, absurd, and hilarious all at once. She wrote a book called It's Not About the Sex My Ass. We'll link that in the show notes as well. So whether you're revisiting this episode or hearing it right now for the first time,

here it is. Our OG episode, A Little TLC and followed by its part two, which is dropping at the same time. No Waiting. Our pilot, if you will. Our pilato. And thank you for being with us then, now, and maybe even at that live show in Napa. Who doesn't love Napa? Who doesn't love wine? Thankfully, we've gotten a lot better since. I mean, we have, right? I and comical justifications for marrying multiple teenagers. Enjoy! I remember

the leader calling upon Jesus and the host of heaven to come down and meet us and I remember looking up toward the ceiling, through my veil. I thought the ceiling was just going to part, and the bright light was going to come in. And I would see these personages floating down into the room and hover above us. I spent my whole life thinking about it, spent seven years preparing for it.

I was willing to become a polygamist to actually see Christ in the flesh. Hi, I'm Liz Iacuzzi. in the flesh. I just wanted to say the title as well, Liz. You can't say the title every time. Why don't you just tell them what the show is about? Great, I'll take that too. So, this is called Was I in a Cult? And this is a show about- I said that already. And you didn't say it with the right inflection. It's Was I in a Cult? Was I in a Cult?

Was I in a Cult? Yes, you were. Yes, so were you. No cult shaming here. Okay, good. So, this is a show, a podcast podcast about brave individuals who clawed their way out of various cults and rebuilt their lives. That was really good.

Thanks, Liz. Today we feature a woman by the name of Joanne. She tells her story about being in a small Utah-based cult. It is quite a tale. It's also one that Joanne can look back at with some levity. In fact, she co-wrote a hysterical book about her time in the cult entitled, It's Not About the Sex My Ass. So she definitely understands that comedy can heal tragedy. And since she had a lot of fun with her story, so do we. But understand, dear listener, that not every one of our future episodes will feature such jocularity.

Because, of course, we do understand that being in and leaving a cult is a very serious and dramatic issue. And we treat every guest and their story with respect. But also, what's wrong with having a wee bit of fun? So, where should we start? Where should we start? Let's take it back. Let's take it waaaaay back. Tell us your tale, Joanne. I was born to some great parents. They raised us in the LDS Church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We called ourselves Mormons growing up.

Aren't they all Mormons? Okay, so officially, as of a couple years ago, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints no longer wishes to be referred to as Mormon. They prefer the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Well, that's a bit of a mouthful, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think for today we're just going to stick with Mormon. Okay. bit of a mouthful, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think for today we're just going to stick with Mormon. My father was in the Air Force. When I was six, we moved to Florida. A few years later,

we moved to northern Maine. A few years after we left Maine and moved to Orem, Utah, and that was a big shock. All of a sudden, I was just one of many Mormons. All the kids at school were Mormons. We had assemblies in high school where they'd start with a prayer. We'd go to church for three hours on Sunday, every single Sunday. So, for all of you who have not seen the Book of Mormon musical or Murder Among the Mormons, here is a quick rundown on Mormonism. Is that Mormon music?

It's close. It's very close, Liz. Insert Mormon music here. In the early 1800s, in upstate New York, a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith went into the woods to pray, hoping to figure out which church to join. He was then visited by God and Jesus. And what did God and Jesus have to say? What they told him is to not join any church, Liz.

That messaging feels a bit off-brand for that duo. True. So, a few years later, an angel then appeared to Joseph Smith. So this angel then led him to some gold plates. Real gold plates, Tyler? Yes, Liz, real gold plates buried in the ground. And these plates contained ancient writings that Joseph Smith translated into a book of scripture known as? The Book of known as The Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon. So he then started his own church and he named it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons. And then he declared himself the prophet and president of said church. How convenient. Which then means that he receives direct revelation from God himself. As all self-proclaimed prophets do. You sure do know a lot about Mormonism, Tyler.

Well, Liz, that's because I was raised as a Mormon. I used to be one. But this story is not about me. Let's go back to Joanne. Right. So, she was now in Utah. Graduated from Orm High School and went to BYU. BYU, Brigham Young University, a Mormon-owned school in Provo, Utah, which is about 98% Mormon. I want to talk to the one Jewish kid who's at this school who's just like, I'm just here for the strong forestry department. I enjoyed school, majored in interior design, but I never imagined myself graduating.

I thought I'd just find a husband, settle down, and use interior design in my own home to make my home a pretty place for my kids and my husband. I kept going to BYU, getting good grades. I was so shy and awkward. I graduated from BYU without being kissed, without any kind of serious relationship. And that was just embarrassing. Sexual repression at its finest. If anyone would know. If anyone would know, it would not be me.

Moving on. Sorry. I had some roommates that got married, great guys that they met on campus, and it just never happened for me. To Mormons, marriage is essential if you want to make it back into God's presence in heaven, a place Mormons refer to as the celestial kingdom. After I graduated from BYU, I moved into an apartment so that I could meet guys. I dated this guy for a while and that got me me used to men. He had a house with a hot tub. Good on you, Joanne. I too only date men with hot tubs.

Sometimes I'd stay at his place till like two or three in the morning. Never dared stay overnight because that was just too risky, too close to sinning. Surprise! Premarital sex is a no-no in the Mormon Church. But so is drinking, smoking, watching R-rated movies, and coffee or tea. What about oral sex? Or anal sex? There's gotta be some workarounds here. You know, he's looking for the loophole, aren't you Liz? I'm just, you know, curious. I wanted to get married, but he didn't.

So she broke it off. But she was still seeking that delightful Mormon husband. So she joined a Mormon dating service. Wait, what year are we in now? This is the year of our Lord 1990. It was called Latter Day Ideals, the Mormon Dating Service. And I was able to go into the office and read some profiles of men that I liked. One of them had moved to California, one of them wasn't dating at the time. And then one that I really liked, he was tall,

he had been married before and had a couple of twin boys, which I thought was just so fantastic. This was a gentleman by the name of Jeff. But did Jeff have a hot tub, Tyler? No. First red flag, Joanne. So he called me right away to, you know, set up a date. We decided to meet at one of my church softball games.

Run it out, run it out, run it out, run it out. I saw him drive into the parking lot. Oh, he's cute. I went up and started talking to him for a bit, and then it was my turn to bat again. So I got up there and I hit a home run. Oh my God! And I was so happy to impress him.

I have a feeling that wasn't the type of home run she really wanted to hit. Oh, no. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That one was just sitting there waiting for me to... We saw each other every single day from then on. He'd come to my apartment, we'd make out, and I think it was about 10 days after we first met. We were cuddling on the bed and he said, I love you. I want to marry you.

My immediate thought was, if I don't say yes, I'll scare them off and I'll lose my chance. So even though I was not sure at all, I said, yes, I would love that. So we started talking about wedding plans, and we planned it for a few months ahead. We'd met in June and we got married the end of August. We had a great wedding in the Salt Lake Temple and then we went on our honeymoon to Disney World in Florida. After the wedding, we moved into his condo and within a month I was pregnant. My son was born in the end of July, just a month before our first anniversary. And after about a year, I talked to Jeff about becoming a massage therapist.

I said, maybe I should get a job, you know, have a career besides just being a mom to this little kid. He said, well, why don't we just have some more children? So I got pregnant again. As I was growing up, I was taught to obey my parents. So when I got married, I was taught to obey my husband. And I was taught to obey the church leaders, all the men. So Tyler, you're telling me there's misogyny present in the confines of a religion? Shocking, Liz, but true. Jeff started to practice, working as a chiropractor, and it was doing really, really well, making good money. We purchased a home, and it was a great house. I then had my third child, a girl, and that was great.

We had three kids and we were just happy. What a sweet story. I love a good happy ending. Thank you all for joining us on Was I in a Call? Liz, Liz, no, well, that's actually not the ending, Liz. It's actually kind of just the beginning. Shit. I was afraid you were going to say that. Before we go back to Joanne, Tyler, let's tell them a little bit about us. What, you think we need some clout or gravitas to prove our audio worthiness? I mean, don't we live in a world where all you need is a microphone and then you're an automatic podcast host?

True. Well, they should know that you're a world renowned documentary filmmaker. I mean, that's very nice. I don't know about the world. You're at least American renowned. And you also happen to escape some religious cultic upbringing. And they should know that you are a writer and comedian who took an acting class when you first moved to LA, which turned into a self-help cult. Which was effing crazy. Yeah, and we will get to that.

But let's get back to Joanne, as we are not narcissistic cult leaders. We don't need everything to be about us. Right. So, now it's 1992, and until this point, Joanne is happily married, living in Mormon Utah. All is well. For now. Where we lived, there were people talking about the second coming.

And to Mormons, this was the big deal. The second coming of Jesus. They just loved that subject. Because they were preparing for what? The millennium when Mormons are the only ones that live on the earth and everybody is happy. Everybody thinks the same. But then one day, Jeff goes to a chiropractic meeting, a convention, and he comes back with a set of seven video tapes all about the second coming.

He parked in front of the TV and watched these tapes and was just enthralled with them. The tapes featured nothing more than a quiet Mormon scholar sitting all by himself talking to the camera. He'd show some scriptural references and he predicted that the Second Coming was going to be at a certain time, like within a year or two. And we believed it, every single part of it. Now remember, Mormons have the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but they also have revelation from past prophets, and it is not uncommon for some members to receive their own ideas and revelations, some of which

might not exactly fit what the mainstream Mormon Church teaches. There's so much convenience factor in the Mormon religion. It's a very DIY religion. DIY, exactly. Don't wait for our revelation. Get your own. We start reading a lot of books. Well, actually, Jeff starts reading a lot of books because I'm busy with three little kids and he starts sharing all this information with me.

We had an extra room downstairs and we filled it with canned goods and all these things to survive the last days because society was going to collapse and you were going to have to have this food to survive. Nat And then one day they stumbled upon an article in a newspaper. Julie About a man in Manti that was teaching last day's prophecies. He had been a real estate broker and he got all religious and moved to Manti because that was going to be the place that things were going to happen in

the future. Joeann is referring to Manti, a quiet but charming little community located in central Utah. So, Jeff looked him up in the phone book and gave him a call. And it was Jim Harmsdon. And apparently every weekend at his little house in Mantai, Jim would teach spiritual classes. He called these models. We got invited down to his weekend of teachings. We took the children to my mom's house. I don't remember the excuse we gave them, but we went down to Manti and listened to

Jim for two days. So Jim was fairly short, quite chunky, had a nice beard and was very kind. We'd sit there and he had a whiteboard and he would draw diagrams and he used references from Mormon doctrine and he talked a lot about the Second Coming. He talked about the safe place, which was Manti, and a thing he called the Shakina, which we pictured as kind of a dome over Manti and the surrounding area to keep out the wars and the refugees. And it was so exciting. So he was preaching his own interpretations then? Basically. I mean, it should be noted that Jim had taken a hard left away from the accepted mainstream Mormonism.

So Shakina and Manti being this rapture safe zone were not taught in traditional Mormon Sunday school? Not the Sunday school I went to, Liz. Right. Shakina, am I saying that right? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what a Chiquina is. Every once in a while, you'd get so emotional about these things that you'd get that tingly

feeling. And he actually taught us that that tingly feeling we were getting was a witness from people who work for the Holy Ghost, kind of like Santa's helpers. I can't remember the word, but nobody else is going to know it anyway. He would see people kind of tear up or look excited and he would say, you're getting a witness. That means your angel across the veil would put their hand on your back and give you that tingly feeling, give you that burning in the bosom that made you know that what was just said was true. I call that feeling something else, Tyler. And what is it you call, Liz?

I call it a shakin', shakin' in my bones. A reverberation of love. You should probably just stick with witness. It's a lot easier. Okay. Jeff was determined to move down to Manti, and this was going to be our getaway for when, you know, the world collapsed. But there was one more issue that was discussed. Oh, Jim also talked about polygamy in the meetings. To have the kingdom of earth

on ready for Christ to come back, you'd have to live the higher law of celestial plural marriage. Jeff thought polygamy was just fine because his great-great-grandfather was a famous pioneer that had several wives. So, Tyler, what's up with Mormons and multiple wives? Just give it to me straight. Glad you asked, Liz. Let's go back to 1833. That's still not Mormon music, Liz. Work on it. So, Joseph Smith is the president and prophet of the flourishing Mormon church. And as prophet, he can…

Let me guess, receive revelations from God. Yes, and one of those revelations that Joseph received was called the Law of Celestial Marriage. Also known as Multiple Wives Syndrome, MWS. Yes, also known as polygamy. Right. And let me guess, Joseph got the message and was like, oh yes, God, I hear you loud and clear. You want me to have sex with 30 women, I will do it in your name.

Pretty much. And although Joseph was already married, he jumped right into that spiritual messaging and married his 16-year-old housekeeper in the barn behind his house. Because no one said he had to be classy to be a polygamist. Joseph went on to marry 35 more times. 35 times? Jesus Christ! How did he remember them all? What do you have to do, color code them? Like, call them by their number? Like, hey, wife 13! My eggs are gold!

You know, one does have to respect the man's commitment to God's vision. And women got to marry multiple men, too, of course, right? No, Liz. Of course they didn't. Oh, right. I forgot. Women aren't worthy of God's prophecies. That makes sense. However, the church did eventually disavow polygamy in 1890. Too many cat fights. Yeah. Well, worry not, Liz. It's still doctrine that men will practice polygamy in 1890. Too many cat fights. Well, worry not, Liz. It's still doctrine that men will practice polygamy in the next life in heaven.

Well, hallel-f-en-lula. So you got that to look forward to. Tyler, you know a lot about polygamy. Is there a, how many bedrooms do you have? I have enough. Is there something you're not telling us? Just enough, Liz. The truth be told is my great-great-great-grandfather was a polygamist.

So polygamy is in my jeans or my dockers, depending upon what I'm wearing that day. So bad. Let's go back to Joanne and Jeff, please. Yes, please. I wanted to be on the front row when Jesus came back. I wanted to be special. I was willing to move to Manti, become a polygamist, and get ready for Christ to return. So Jeff and Joanne sold their house, they packed up, and moved to Manti.

The land of polygamist dreams. My parents came down with us and helped us move all our boxes and furniture in. And my dad was setting up the crib in the upstairs bedroom. My dad finally got up the courage to say, so are you moving here because of that group, that Jim Harmsden group? And I said yes. We believe that this is the safe place for the calamities that are going to come, and we also believe that we're going to need to live polygamy. My mom threw up her arms, turned around and said, oh, Alan, oh, and just ran down the hall and down the stairs out into the backyard.

And my dad turned to me and said, you've broken your mother's heart. At the time, I had to think, well, if her heart is broken over the truth, then she's just going to have to get over it. So the house we bought in Mantai was really beautiful, old, two-story Victorian with a huge fence yard and we had a big garden. Jim lived a few blocks away, everybody else lived, you know, fairly nearby. And we would meet every Sunday and we'd also get together in the evenings at people's homes and have meetings. The men would get together and have meetings. The women would get together at somebody's home and have a meeting. And a lot of the meetings were potluck dinners. So a lot of socializing.

Those must have been some dinner parties like, hey, Sally, has your Harry found a second wife yet? Not yet, but we keep praying. Oh, don't worry. She'll show up right when you least expect it. That's how love works. You should try the guac. It's delicious. You nailed it, Liz. That is man-tie Mormon housewife voice number 12. So at first, there were probably about a dozen families. And as Jim had his models, maybe once a month, some couple would decide they believed it and they'd moved to Manti. So it continued to grow. It was within the first year we were there that the men discussed the idea of forming a church.

And when they formed the church, they named it the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days. We called it TLC for short. So Jim was the leader, the president. Jim's revelation was that Jeff should be the president of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. That was pretty exciting. But the tenets of this new-founded faith didn't stray too far from the classics. The pattern of our church was just like the LDS church.

In fact, we joked about it being kind of like Mormonism on steroids, but more of extreme. So our church was extreme Mormonism. And of course, we went back to Joseph Smith's teachings and tried to start from there. Pete And one of those teachings was that if you become Mormon and you keep all of the commandments Kirsten Don't drink lattes, no sex in hot tubs, only date men with hot tubs. When you die, you can become a god.

And you get your own planet. What in the hell am I gonna do with a planet? I can really keep three plants alive. Well, you're a woman, Liz. Women don't get planets. So we believed that as a man became a god, he would be able to populate a new planet. He would have one of his wives and procreate and have spirit children. And these spirit children would take bodies and populate this particular earth.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. So men get an entire planet and women get to be in a marriage with a bunch of other wives and give birth to a collection of spirit babies? Yep. Yeah, that lines up. Well, look at it this way, Liz. At least you don't have to change spirit diapers. I'd make one of my sister wives do it.

Wife 13. Wife number 13. Yeah, the one who sucks at making eggs. Okay, so we've established that polygamy is a big part of Mormonism, both in this life and the next. But for the Manti group, they weren't really practicing it. Yet. As we'd get in our meetings, we'd talk about polygamy. Jim would preach it in church. There was a man who somehow met a young girl. She liked him and he liked her, and they ended up being the first couple to live polygamy in our Manti group. That was a big deal. And then Jim decided that it was his turn and he found a single woman that lived in a nearby town and started courting her. And shortly thereafter, married her, becoming the second polygamist couple in town. Soon,

Jeff started to feel the pressure to take on a second wife, but Joanne wanted to make sure that celestial marriage was right for them. So, like every other decision they made, they needed to pray about it. Joanne We had built a little altar. We had it in our bedroom. It was just a little wooden box. We padded the top so we could put our arms on them and the two sides folded down and they were padded so that you could kneel there

and hold hands across the altar. We'd pray and we'd ask questions and wait and say, you know, what did you get? Well, I got this and we'd share our ideas. We felt that we needed to find Jeff a wife so we could start proving that we were worthy by living this celestial marriage. See, but the problem with the Manti group is that there weren't a lot of single adult women. I don't want to hear what comes next. Here it comes. Oh dear God.

There was a family in the group that had a teenage daughter. Jeff was attracted to her. She might have been 17. So we prayed about her and we felt good about it, you know, got that witness that we should have her in our family and build his kingdom. Jeff Witten talked to her father and he seemed kind of disgusted at the idea that his daughter would marry an older man and become a polygamist and he was part of the group. We didn't quite understand why our revelation was wrong. So they kept looking and eventually they met. A certain family from New Mexico planned on moving to Manti.

And they had three teenage daughters. They were all just beautiful girls. Jeff was really motivated. Let me guess, Jeff got the witness. We visited with them for a while and then as we were driving home, we discussed, you know, well, the older daughter, Judith, she was 17 at the time, is the only one old enough at this point to get married. Jeff says, well, I think I should do it. And unlike the previous man, Judith's father was amenable to the idea. He was a big fan of Brigham Young. He taught his daughters these ideas and when they found Jim, everything just fit.

Little backstory. Brigham Young was the second prophet of the Mormon church and he had 55 wives, many of whom were teenagers. Brigham Young as in Brigham Young University? Yes, yeah, and oddly enough, at Brigham Young University there's a moral code that says you can't drink alcohol or smoke or wear shorts or drink coffee or tea or engage in pre-medal sex or have a beard. But you can be a pedophile, 55 times if you wanted to. So long as you don't drink a latte.

Anyway, let's go back to Joanne. They moved to town. He proposed to Judith, bought her a ring. They set the date. And Joanne planned a big wedding reception. I loved to entertain. They used to call me the Martha Stewart of Manti. I was kind of scared of my feelings because I was just worried that at some point I was going to get really

jealous or feel very rejected. So I just went on planning the reception, planning where Judith would live. She was going to have what had been the guest room. So I had that all fixed up. And here is the room where my husband will make sweet, sweet love to a teenager whenever he wants. Let me just make sure the duvet matches the curtains. So the day of the wedding arrives. One of the families in the group, they had a barn, and there was a stairway that went

up to the upstairs above the animals. They had fixed it up, carpeted it, put curtains on the windows, and we called it the endowment house. This is where we had our wedding ceremony. We'd go into the barn, past the chickens and the cows, and climb these rickety wooden stairs and sit around in those big plastic stackable chairs that you get at the home supply store. But they were white and it was all very holy. And anyway, one of the men had built one of these altars with the padded tops. I knew how to

paint wood to make it look like marble. I painted it white and then I put some gray, gold, blue marbling veins in the wood. So this was our marble altar. Everybody thought it was just fantastic, especially me. For the ceremony, there were a couple of dozen people. We all stood around in our temple robes, just like the LDS church. Temple robes are a full-body white jumpsuit or a dress with a sash, a white cap or a veil, and a green apron. This clothing is sacred to Mormons. What's the green apron for? Jim Prezant That's so you don't get eggs on your white

sash. Host 2 You better tell that to wife 13. Jim Prezant She is. Host 2 She's just so clumsy. Jim Prezant She's about to become wife 14. Host 2 Jeff and Judith kneeled across the altar from each other and held hands, and I kneeled next to Judith and put my hand on top of theirs.

Jim presided. He went through the marriage ceremony. I can't remember how it went. I guess like a normal marriage ceremony, except that I happened to be there and I think they asked me if I approved. And so we all said yes and that was about it. After the wedding, we had a great big party, big wedding cake, lots of people were there. We just visited and had fun for hours.

That was one of the few good memories I have. Jeff and Judith went off on their honeymoon early evening. Everybody left. I cleaned up after the big reception. And you know what happens on honeymoons. Overpriced buffets. Perhaps. Anyways, thank you so much for joining us on Was I an occult? Wait, wait, wait, Tyler, that's really the end? Of this episode, yes. Of Joanne's story, no.

And you, listener, have to wait one whole minute to hear part two. Because we're not jerks, we're not going to make you wait an entire week. Not this time, anyways. But you do want to stick around and listen to the next episode because her story gets rather crazy. You're not going to want to stick around and listen to the next episode because our story gets rather crazy you're not gonna want to miss the second coming you guys or the first coming of the gratuitous sex scene that we added oh wow let's not oversell this Tyler fine anyways thank you for listening to episode one of was I in a cult?

nobody's listening to you they've moved on to episode two haven't they? you can tell them anything you want right now great what you had for dinner last night I had a lovely salmon it was nice, a I had rice. What's on your bucket list? I would like to piss on the Eiffel Tower not the real one the one in Vegas What your son is up to these days? Definitely. No one's listening now. No, you're not even listening to me You don't even know what I'm saying. Not even I don't even know who you are. Fine. I'll take it home Thanks for listening to episode one of Was I In A Cult? I only gave you that line because no one's listening. Was I in a Cult is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

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A true crime podcast. It got me upset because this is someone's kid and someone knows she's gone. That takes a different approach. It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town. Focusing on the communities affected by life-shattering crimes. It made news throughout the entire region that these two people had been shot while they slept in such a safe community. To give a new perspective on the devastation crimes can cause.

It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town. Featuring cases from quiet towns to bustling cities, and interviewing the people closest to the case. My first thought was that it's an unusual location for us to have a homicide. Listen to the True Crime podcast, City Confidential, and step beyond the yellow tape to learn just how far a crime can reach.

There are certain cases in the history of Boston that I think sort of define the city. I think this is one of them. New episodes of the City Confidential Podcast are available every Thursday, available wherever you get your podcasts. ["Was I in a Cult?" by The City Confidential Podcasts plays.] Welcome to episode two of Was I in a Cult? I'm your host, Tyler Meesom.

And I'm also your host, Liz Iacuzzi. Listeners, we suggest you listen to episode one first, as this is part two of Joanne Hanks' story. It's always wise to start with the first movie. You can't really just watch Breaking 2, Electric Boogaloo, unless you first watch Breaking. You're aging yourself, Tyler. It's a timeless classic, Liz. Okay, what reference would you use? Um, you can't watch When Nature Calls without first watching Pet Detective. You kind of can, actually.

That's true. But if you don't listen to episode one first, you won't know how Joanne Hanks went from being a happily married woman with three kids to a now sister wife. Right. And just to remind you, Joanne was part of the Utah-based TLC group and had just watched her husband, Jeff, marry another woman. A teenager, lest we forget? I have a feeling you won't let us forget that. Oh, I won't.

And after the reception, Jeff and her young bride went off to the honeymoon. Leaving Joanne all alone. All that evening and night and the next morning, all I could think about was them having sex. So a few days later, they came back from the honeymoon and Judith moves in. One big happy family. It was awkward at first. She didn't know either of us very well. My children told me later on that they thought Judith was just another

kid in the family because- Nicole Because she was a kid? Yeah, smart children. Nicole Because she was young. She would play with them a lot. There were a fair amount of arguments the first few months because I felt like I was doing all the housework and the laundry and the cooking and she was having all the fun. As time went on, we became friends. She and I would decorate the house, we'd make birthday cakes for the kids, we'd watch movies together, we became good friends. And life was pretty normal.

Yeah, normal, except after Judith and Joanne were done watching movies together, Judith would go have sex with Joanne's husband. Yep, but as is the case with most polygamous marriages, the question is where they would be having sex. And he's not talking about on the countertop. Cold, hard, nonolium. I guess you don't really need to spice it up

when it's already spicy. I would say you'd probably would have to. I've talked to polygamous men and they say that it's very exhausting because while one woman only gets sex once a week, he has to basically do it every single night. So Viagra is a very common occurrence in polygamous communities. Wow.

So don't start a polygamous family without a prescription. I guess it's like- Talk to your doctor about a polygamous family. See if it's right for you. Do you think the women talk about it? Possibly. I mean, do you talk about it with your friends? Yeah, but I'm like, I'm not having sex with my friend's husband. Ah.

Ha ha ha. Yet. All right, we are going off on a tangent. I love it. Let's go back to Joanne. OK. We decided that Jeff would have his own room. So one night, I was upstairs getting ready for bed.

And I heard them having sex. getting ready for bed, and I heard them having sex. And I heard him screaming. It was awful because I could picture them doing it. So I immediately stomped on the floor real hard. We changed sleeping arrangements after that. We went back to him coming to our rooms, which were on different ends of the house. So what's the point of polygamy other than multiple fuck buddies? I mean, sex partners.

Well, Liz, the whole idea of polygamy is that these men need to build their kingdoms and the way they can do that is taking multiple wives and having lots of children with all their wives. Their teenage wives. God bless the kingdom. Amen. We did our work for the dead, which is something that the LDS Church did. They would have people be baptized for the dead person.

Wait, hold up. They'd baptize dead people? Not really, Liz. So, Mormons believe that everyone must be baptized a Mormon in order to get into heaven. So, they would baptize non-Mormons that were already dead? Don't worry, Joseph Smith had it all figured out. He called it baptism for the dead, which is essentially that someone here on earth does proxy baptisms in the name of someone who is deceased. So we could baptize Alex Trebek.

Mm-hmm. I mean, I would hate for him to not get into heaven. We could, Liz. And then Alex would get the opportunity to accept or reject the message in the next life. I'll take bullshit for 300? You know, baptism for the dead is a very important part of Mormon belief, and the Manti group was no different. They would get names of people who have died. We decided that we needed to find out whether these people wanted their work done. So Jim's wife, Elaine, she was, for lack of a better word,

she was the medium. We'd all get in our robes and someone would get to the altar and they'd call this person from across the veil, is Abraham Lincoln here? There'd be a pause. And Elaine would kind of take the voice of that particular person. Yes, I'm here. Then all of us would be like, oh my gosh, Abraham Lincoln's in the room with us. And we'd all get choked up and just be amazed.

And then they would say, I'm so grateful for what you're doing. You're such important people. And then we say goodbye and close the prayer. Get on to the next person. And these got really popular. But it wasn't enough to simply communicate with those famous people. Eventually, Prophet Jim had a revelation that all the members of the TLC actually were those famous people in the past life, essentially reincarnation. But they called it the law of multiple moral probations. Judith was into royalty, historical royalty. So she decided she wanted to call up Queen Elizabeth I. Queen Elizabeth, are you here? They'd sit there for a minute and then Elaine would say,

is Judith Queen Elizabeth? Yes. And everybody would just get all choked up and we'd find out that Judith's one of her early probations, she was Queen Elizabeth. And now she's born back again to this little family and ends up in Manti. Eventually it wasn't enough to just have one person as your reincarnate. Jim revealed that those famous people also had past lives. So in theory, you could be the reincarnation of Noah and Aristotle and Mark Twain and Thomas Edison. Or Bernie Mac. I mean, that's who I would be.

Good choice, Liz. Rest in peace, funny man. Everybody was fighting for all the best names because they wanted to be the most important people in history. By the time I got around to doing it, the only people famous that were left were daughters of famous men. I was one of those daughters of Martin Luther. I researched Benjamin Franklin and found out that he had some daughters and I felt impressed that I was one of those daughters. All the women started researching the wives of Joseph Smith and for some reason I felt impressed by this one particular woman,

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner. So we had a prayer session and found out that yes, in my previous probation, that's who I had been. Okay, Liz, remember when I said that Joseph Smith had 37 wives? How could I forget? Well… It's still. Still not Norman music?

You'd make a lousy wife 13, Liz. Okay, so, 1842, Nauvoo, Illinois. One fine evening, the Prophet Joseph Smith went a call into a young woman's house and told this young woman who was already married that an angel had appeared to him previously and said that if Joseph didn't marry this girl, the angel would cut his head off with a flaming sword. Well, with a proposal like that, how could one say no? Which she didn't.

She married him. He performed the ceremony himself. And I'm guessing they consummated the marriage right then and there? Perhaps. I don't know that detail, Liz, but the woman's name was Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner. And that is who Joanne's previous life was. What a lucky girl. Meanwhile, amid all the seances and polygamy, the TLC Church continues to grow.

Jim continued to teach the models. We had, I think, about 300 or so people, husbands, wives, and children at one point. It seemed like a fairly large group. We weren't your typical polygamists that wore farmers' clothes and the women dressed in long cotton dresses that they made and they wore their hair up in these funny buns and braids. We were yuppie polygamists, college-educated and had money. As the end of the world came closer, Jim kept receiving revelations. One of them took the men halfway across the country to Davies County, Missouri. This was the place where Adam and Eve had first lived on the earth in this cornfield in Missouri.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, okay. This definitely needs some explanation. So in 1838, the Prophet Joseph Smith was visiting the home of a man in a remote area of eastern Missouri. It's near the Grand River. And while he was there, Joseph spotted a large pile of rocks. They're sitting in a field. And he proclaimed that that was an altar built by Adam. As in the OG Adam? Like the fig leaf wearing, apple eating Adam? That Adam. Joseph then proclaimed that this was the place where Adam and Eve lived after they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, which apparently was only a few miles away.

So the Garden of Eden is in Missouri? Yes. Where else would you think it would be, Liz? Kansas? No, it's just somewhere with more flowers or a body of water, perhaps. Well, Missouri is very centrally located. Right. Right near the airports. Near the highways.

Yeah, exactly. And supposedly, Adam was going to come back to the spot in the last days. So this field is considered holy for Mormons, and especially for the Manti group. All the men rented an RV or two, and they drove back to Adam on Diamond or the Garden of Eden in Missouri. They were going to call upon God and He was going to appear to them at this place. And we were all excited about this. Judith and I were at home and we were waiting for Jeff's call to hear what had happened because we expected them to have seen God. So Jeff called that evening and

he said, pretty much nothing had happened. God didn't appear to them. I was so disappointed. After the phone call, I remember telling Judith that I was having a hard time believing in everything. And she got very upset with me and told me that I needed to snap out of it. That was a big scary moment because my brain actually flipped to reality for a moment, and it scared me a lot. By the next day, I was my old self again. It was easy to make my doubts go away because I had so much invested in it. It had taken over our lives so much. As a lot of the men started finding plural wives, some of them had three or four and Jeff only had Judith and me, so we were always searching and looking.

J.B. Gotta keep up with those Joneses. J.B. One of the older men in the group had an adopted daughter that was in her 40s. She came to Manti, and she was looking for a husband. Jeff wasn't that attracted to her, but he reluctantly said, it's time for me to add to my kingdom. To fulfill his celestial duties,

Jeff went and added a third wife, Ginger. Praise be. Praise be. I could tell that she didn't like me that much, but we went ahead and had another plural wedding, another reception party. Jeff took Ginger on a honeymoon up to British Columbia. And she came back and lived in the house with us for a little while until she decided that she needed a place of her own. Jeff would leave every couple of nights to go spend a

night with her. And then she'd come over once every few days for dinner and for our family prayer. And it was kind of tough. We all didn't get along that well. Do you think Jeff was ever like, can I just stay in one bed for God's sake? Right. Which room did I leave my toothbrush? Exactly. Packing overnight bags so you can go down the hall. So inconvenient. The newness of having several wives wore off pretty quick to the point where he was just

happy to have sex with me. He spent more time with me than the other two because it was comfortable and familiar and I'd been married to him for eight years. So after only a few months of being a third wife, Ginger decided that she didn't really want to be married to Jeff anymore. One of the other young men decided that he wanted to add Ginger to his family. So she was released from Jeff and she married one of the other apostles. Musical wives, if my third wife sucks, I'll just give her to you.

I was okay with Ginger leaving. I don't think any of us really felt bad about it. We didn't spend a lot of time with her. It didn't seem like a failure for us. Besides, they still had Judith. At first, Judith didn't want to have any children because she was just 17 and it was a scary thing for her. But as time went on, she needed to start having children. Well, Jeff had had a vasectomy after we had our third child. She knew this when she married him and we all assumed that God would just take care of things. But God apparently doesn't reverse vasectomies.

Oh no? That's just doctors? That's a shock. Judith decided to pray about it and of course she got the revelation that she should leave Jeff and be rescued by Jim. As in the prophet Jim, Jim Harmsdon. J. Jeff did not like that at all. Not only was he sad because he'd grown to love Judith, but he was also humiliated that this other man was going to take his wife. I was very sad. We were all close and of course, she and I were really good friends. And also,

it was a big demotion for us. We went from polygamists to just a couple. All right, Liz. Now, remember how all this began? Jeff and Joanne moved to Manti because the end of the world was nigh, Christ was going to come soon. Well, it had been seven years and still no sign of Jesus. But this was 1999 and… People were talking about Y2K and I remember Jim saying that he didn't believe that Christ was going to return on January 1st, 2000. That was just too on the nose. He decided by revelation, of course, that Christ was actually going to return to us in Manti on March 25, 2000. But not just Christ. Also, thousands of angels were going to come down, and the Shekinah

Dome was going to be placed over the town of Manti and all the wicked would be destroyed. And then we were going to walk up the hill to the Manti temple and go in and have a big feast. Yep, Jesus and the angels were coming and they expected dinner. Hot and ready. So we started preparing for this great event. I, of course, was excited to have another big party. I asked Jim if I could be in charge of the interior design. I purchased a couple of dozen green tablecloths. I had all the women in the church bring over their china and their fancy serving dishes and things. I was also doing my favorite thing,

baking cookies to add to the feast. A few of the other women were assigned to get the food for the feast, so they drove a refrigerated truck up to Costco. And they got the best food they could buy. Lots of seafood and roasts and hams, all kinds of fruit platters and vegetables. We were gonna have this huge fancy dinner. After they filled up this refrigerated truck, they drove it back down to Manti and there was no place to park it except for in our driveway. All I could hear that night was the hum of the refrigerated box truck in my driveway.

I guess that beats the sound of your husband having sex in the bedroom above you. I suppose, unless you hate your husband. Yeah, right. Like wife 13. She is just so sick of having sex with her bossy husband. Anyway, Joanne was quite excited about the events that were going to transpire the very next day. The Wicked were going to be destroyed, and we'd be the only ones left in town. We were going to go into the temple and have a big feast with Jesus, and have roast beef and cookies. Because nothing says the Second coming like roast beef. We had purchased another building that we called the Meeting House. I had decorated it, painted all the walls, marble. This was going to be where Christ was going to come back to us.

So the next day, March 25th, everyone in the church came. Everyone had their white robes on. Everybody was so excited. After a few hours, we decided to have our big prayer. We stood in our circles and held hands. The women, of course, had to veil their faces and we all stood around in our white robes, and I remember Jim getting the prayer and calling upon Jesus and the host of heaven to come down and meet us. And of course it was very dramatic. He repeated the words over and over again, and I remember looking up toward the ceiling through my veil and trying to imagine what was going to happen next.

I thought the ceiling was just going to part and the bright light was going to come in and I would see these personages start floating down into the room and hover above us, I was going to actually see Christ in the flesh. For several minutes, I stared at the ceiling waiting for this to happen. Jim closed the prayer and said, we need to spend more time testifying. He let everyone in the whole room bear their testimony, and we sat there for hours listening to everybody ramble on about their feelings. It was kind of a downer. So, it went from cookies and milk with Jesus to a group therapy session. After we'd been there for hours and hours, it was after midnight.

Prophet Jim told everyone to go home and get some sleep. They'll try again the next night. So, the next day we went back and we did the same thing. So, the next day we went back and we did the same thing. Nothing happened. So, Jim said, go home and stay by your phones. If something happens, we'll call everybody. Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring. Hey, Joanne, it's Jim. I just want to let you know that Jesus was held up in traffic. He's on his way. So, make sure the tablecloths are ironed. Oh, and don't forget the cookies. And maybe warm up that roast beef. You know, Jesus loves roast beef. We did get a phone call the next morning, and Jim told us to come to a meeting. He was

just inviting the inner circle, which meant him and his wives and the apostles and their wives. So, we went over and Jim was like, what are we going to tell the rest of the church? What do you think happened? We discussed it for a while and one of the men who wasn't there in the inner circle meeting, he had called Jim earlier and he had quite the imagination. Adam This was one of the members of the group and he knew a lot about science. I mean, he was Benjamin Franklin in the past life after all.

And his idea was that there was some kind of a folding of time. Everything had happened that we anticipated would, but God had folded back time a day. And so it really had taken place, but we just didn't experience it in reality. Jim decided that was the reason. Okay, just to recap, Jesus and the angels came down, thousands of humans were destroyed, everyone had a lovely potluck dinner, Jesus loved the cookies, and then God folded back time and everyone forgot that it happened. Like a celestial undo button.

And they called this the folding time doctrine. Okay, real talk for a minute. The masterful manipulation that happens in cults never ceases to amaze me, but the folding time doctrine? That's just pure genius. So a couple of days after, Jeff and I went for a walk one evening and he started talking about how he wasn't quite sure of this folding time doctrine. And I was worried that he was losing his testimony. I said, well, let's make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. And he said, I don't think there ever was a baby.

He wasn't sure any of this was real anymore. Jeff also mentioned that he had been worrying about our daughters growing up and being polygamous wives, and that we needed to totally, totally change our viewpoint and get back to reality. change our viewpoint and get back to reality. By the end of the walk, I was feeling in agreement with Him and I realized, okay, unfortunately Christ isn't going to return to us here and all of this experience was a waste of time. Although it's very painful to realize something you've dedicated your life to turns out to be a complete waste of time, this was also a huge moment of clarity for Joanne, whether

she knew it or not. Mm-hmm, a crack in the facade. It was the beginning of the end. Praise be, Joanne. Halle-frickin'-lula. That next Sunday, Jeff was assigned to conduct the meeting. He just couldn't do it. He just couldn't get up there and pretend like everything was normal.

So we put the kids in the van and we took them for a drive. We're driving out of town and we tell our kids that we're going to leave the church and we're going to move away from Manti and move back to Oram." They just kind of sat there and thought about it for a minute, and then our one daughter said, but doesn't God want us in Manti? No, it's not important for us to be here anymore. And they were fine with that. So when we got back, Jeff wrote an official letter to Jim saying that we were leaving the church. We heard that that next Sunday, Jim read the letter in church. He got up at the pulpit and just ripped Jeff apart. He also said that we had committed one of the

worst sins there was. And because we had done that, we would be cursed with a black skin. Fucking white people. So in the couple of months it took us to get ready to leave town, we gave away some furniture. During that time, we decided that we needed to get rid of our garments. Here's another thing. Perhaps you've heard the term magic Mormon underwear? I haven't, but where can I buy some? They're known as garments.

Mormons wear them, they're white. The bottoms go all the way to your knees and the top is like a t-shirt. And if you're a worthy Mormon, you have to wear them all the time. So there's no Victoria's Secret for Mormons? The Mormons do have a lot of secrets, Liz, but Victoria's isn't one of them. Did you have to wear them, Tyler?

I did, Liz, once upon a time. But the garments that the members of the TLC wore were slightly more extreme. We had the old-fashioned garments that Joseph Smith first came up with. He said he'd gotten the pattern from angels. They were pretty much like white long johns. They went to our ankles and went to our wrists. So we had these funny old garments and we got the idea to just take our long john garments out into the yard, build a little fire, burn them, and then bury them up with the ashes.

What else do you do with holy underwear? We couldn't donate it to the DI. Ha ha ha. So they buried their underwear ashes, packed up their belongings, and moved out of Manti. In order of importance. So we decided we were going to move back into the rental home that my father owned, where Jeff and I lived when we were first married.

And that was humiliating because it was just a dumpy little house and we had to leave our big beautiful dream home. It was hard to give up all of the exciting plans and our whole lifestyle. And also a hard part was admitting to our families back in the real world that we had failed, that we had been sucked into this, and all the time that we had been preaching to them that we were right and that they needed to join us that we weren't. We were wrong. And it was hard to be humiliated that way. To be able to admit failure, you know, admit you were duped, I think that's one of the

most admirable things a person can do. Of course it is. But the problem is, is that society construes admitting failure with weakness. You change your mind and you're labeled as a flip-flopper. Right, but it's just the opposite of weak. It takes real strength. You have to completely let go of your ego and your pride, you know, which can be painful, but it's really brave and it's humbling. Yeah, but we're being manipulated all day long by a society.

But if more people could just admit, look, you know what, I was wrong. I joined the wrong church. I followed the wrong leader. I sided with the wrong party. If we could all just kind of admit that and not hold people at fault for doing such, we would probably be in a better place. Yeah. We'd be a more peaceful society.

Much more peaceful because we wouldn't have to fight, you know? All the fighting in our society comes out of holding on to ego. You're wrong, I'm right. Right. You know, some say the ego is the false self and that the soul is the true self. So with Joanne admitting that she made this mistake, she was releasing her ego, which ironically had been harboring this false sense of safety within an environment that was promoting a false prophecy. Yeah. Kind of interesting. But what do you do?

I mean, once you've realized that the entire life that you've been living for some time was a complete lie, what do you do? So after we moved back into our little rental house, it was really hard to change my view of life and what we were going to do next. It caused a lot of anxiety, really. So I'm watching TV one evening and I find George Carlin doing his stand up act. And he starts talking about how religion is the biggest bullshit story ever told. I gotta tell you the truth. When it comes to big time major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest.

And goes into his funny comments that if you don't follow God, you're going to be cursed and damned and end up in hell. Full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever till the end of time. But God loves you, and he needs your money. He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money. And I hadn't heard this before. And it was funny and it was so exactly what I had been

thinking. And I realized that was reality and not all these fantasies and magical experiences that I'd been caught up in. Ironically it wasn't an angel that gave her the most powerful witness, but a brilliant, fucked-up comedian. If only she had paid for the premium cable package sooner. We started living a real life again and listening to normal people, reading scientific books, expanding our minds. I was able to start living life as it was in the here and now. It's interesting to me that often the antidote to mind control, cults, and manipulative groups

is knowledge and education. And with knowledge comes power. And in the case of Joanne, personal power. A few years after we left Manti, we eventually got divorced. The kids and I got our own home and I began to become my own person for the first time in my life. Not having a husband to tell me what to do or to take care of me. Not having a religion to tell me how to think.

It's been a long journey and it's been very difficult. But now I'm to the point where I don't need anybody else. I can take care of myself. I can support my daughters. I've discovered that I'm an intelligent, capable person and that life is more joyful now than it ever has been. Sometimes the arrival at inner strength and true freedom comes after you realize that you don't need a husband or a wife or 13 wives or even Jesus to tell you who you are

and how to be. And often that freedom is gained in the surrender of all that you once believed to be true. That sounds like something a cult leader might say. But it is true, isn't it? Thanks for listening. And thanks to Joanne Hanks for telling her story and for letting us have a little bit of fun. And if you want to have a little bit more fun, pick up a copy of Joanne's book.

It's called It's Not About the Sex My Ass. It is a genuinely funny read. And you definitely don't want to miss the episode that is coming next. Next. Next. On this walk, she tells me about this mentorship program. She's like, it's a woman's only secret society. It's like a membership only club or a sorority.

There's secrets. If you want to know more, you have to submit three pieces of collateral. Financial, family, and reputation. So I knew it as the vow. The actual name is DOS. Who's that, Liz? Jessica Joan. And what cult? NXIVM.

Nice. So join us next week and don't forget to subscribe and rate and tell all your friends about Was I in a Cult? Follow us, people. You won't regret it. If you or someone you know has ever been manipulated into a cultic environment or relationship, visit our show notes to be in touch. We really would love to hear from you. This stuff isn't easy, but bringing awareness to cultic abuse is critical to stopping the problem and exposing these seemingly rampant narcissistic leaders. I mean, after all, without followers, a cult is just a mentally deranged human standing on a corner pontificating

to the birds. That's how I picture you in your 90s, Tyler. Just standing on a street corner, ranting about life before the iPhone. God, I'm looking forward to my 90s. Was Ain't a Cult is story produced, written, and hosted by myself, Liz Iacuzzi. And me, Tyler Meesom. Executive producer is Maya Cole. Supervising producer is Catherine Bird Canton. Editor is Chandler Mays.

And a story assistant is Ari Basel. is Maya Cole. Supervising producer is Catherine Burt Canton. Editor is Chandler Mays. And a story assistant is Ari Basel. Special thanks to our ride or die from the beginning, Ben Boland. Until next week, ignore the witness. Don't spare my life Crucify me The major call To turn other lives Lord of light Don't turn off the lights, love and why Don't kiss me goodnight Are you looking for your next case? Pluto TV has all your favorite crime dramas streaming for free. You're gonna need some backup. Which means suspense is free.

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