Was I In A Cult? - Endogenous Cult: “252 Consequences and Counting”

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Today’s guest, Sara, didn’t just wear a cult uniform—she sewed it. Raised in a conservative faith that slowly morphed into a cult, Sara’s life went from dairy cows and barefoot summers to head coverings, spiritual “consequences,” and Levitical purity laws enforced with spray bottles and shame.What started as a desire to live a devout and simple life spiraled into isolation, abuse, and an absurd set of rules that dictated everything from her hair part to her menstrual cycle. Her story—equal parts heartbreaking, enraging, and at times darkly hilarious—includes butchering chickens in the dark, scraping cowhides in the cold, and somehow finding her way to freedom, laughter, and ice cream cones.Follow Us for More Culty Content:Instagram & TikTok: @wasiinacultSupport the Show:If Was I In A Cult? has impacted you, moved you, or made you laugh-uncomfortably-in-public, please rate & review—it helps new listeners find us.Want ad-free episodes + bonus content? Join our Patreon!Share Your Story:Have a cultic experience you want to share on the show? Email us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network or any of their respective affiliates. now because we're establishing this in truth here. But I'm a mom with six children and a husband. I am so lonely. I was treated so poorly. I was afraid of what was going to happen. Welcome back to Was I in a Cult? I'm Tyler Meesom. Hello, and I'm Liz Iacuzzi. And today's story, guys, it's not only wild, it's got layers. Fabric layers, literal and metaphorical culty ass layers.

Literal onion layers, in fact, our guest, a woman who once wrapped herself in yards of fabric and fear, found her way to freedom, shorts, Shrek, tank tops on a better kind of rocky road. The one that's best licked. Interesting visual, Tyler. That was a double entendreau wrapped in a metaphor served on a platter of simile. Oh, is that so? Would you like a helping?

I love our guest today, you guys. It's stories like hers that inspire the two of us to keep making this show. So she first reached out as a fan and she appreciated the humor used, which she said helped her in her own healing journey. And then she shared her story with me and I was in awe, not just by her story, but by her

strength in telling it. One particular line that stands out is this, so I left too, hoping my good example of piety would eventually persuade my husband to return. Surprise, it didn't work and I eventually evolved into the interesting person I am today after living under not one but two rocks. And sleeping is awesome too. I can actually go to sleep when my husband goes to sleep instead of staying up to bake a batch of bread or butchering chickens or washing the car in sub-freezing weather or

scraping a cow hide for hours or weeding the flower beds in the dark or, and she said, insert any meaningless, useless, mundane activity to do instead of sleeping. Do you want to just tell the whole story, Liz? You can just go ahead and maybe just give it all away. Hi, my name is Sarah. Just tell the whole story. So before Liz gives away the entire story, let's welcome today's wonderfully funny and

inspiring guest, Sarah. Crucify. My name is Sarah and I am an independent woman. Yeah, I'm smart and I'm funny and I get to do what I want to do. I was born in 1970. I grew up very conservatively in a large family. We raised our own dairy animals and my brothers would milk the cow and the goats and my parents made cheese and butter and we kept bees. I'd say for the most part I was very happy. I got to live in the country.

I ran around barefoot outside, rode ponies and bicycles, enjoyed things like books and good music. I was the only girl with five brothers for quite a long time before my baby sister was finally born. I called myself the middle black sheep of the family because I was always getting into trouble. Yeah, I'm that middle child. Sounds like someone else I know. Yeah, few people can respond to that comment with, I fully understand, but Sarah, I fully understand. See, I too am a middle child,

but I had five sisters before my baby brother came around. So I get it. I understand. An important part of my life was every Sunday we went to church. And it's just a small family church. Part of our belief is that we're endogenous. And if you're not familiar with that, endogeny is a religious practice of where you have to be born into your faith to be a part of the faith. We do not go out and gather anybody out of the world into our faith. The word endogenous means originating from within a system, organism, or process. It's not a term you hear every day unless you're hanging out with molecular biologists or niche theologians,

but in this context, it means you're born in or don't bother. So no conversion, no door knocking, no street preaching, no pamphlets at the mall, guys. So like religious bacteria evolving inside the spiritual petri dish of a culture, it's shaped by the local nutrients, language, myths, anxieties, and hopes. But here's the thing about a closed Petri dish. If nothing new ever gets in, the culture doesn't just stay pure, it starts to ferment. And eventually it can grow some pretty gnarly mold. Oh, Tyler's crushing metaphors today.

Or is that a simile or an analogy or some other metaphor? But it's nested within a nice little biology pun. Oh, it's so cute. Of course, you want to always do what's right, following the Ten Commandments and being a good person. We always did follow certain holidays, like the Passover and the Feast of the Tabernacles. And we didn't celebrate Christmas, Valentine's Day, things like that. Certain animals are unclean to eat, you know, the big one obviously being

pork, pork products, shellfish, rabbits, things like that. And then one day Sarah meets a suitor, a gentleman caller. We met at a church picnic, just very attractive, but I just felt something from his heart that really touched my heart. And I kind of knew who he was. Yeah, he lived about a five-hour trip from where I lived, and he was only allowed a call like once a week because the phone bills were astronomical back then, and that was a long-distance phone call.

All right, Gen Zers and young millennials, have a seat. It's time for some Gen X romanticizing about a costly and difficult time. What are you doing? I'm playing the world's tiniest violin. You don't need to, you can play a full sized one. So in the 1980s, we didn't have FaceTime, right? We didn't have texting.

We didn't have those call anywhere, call anytime family plans. What we had was long distance phone calls and they were expensive. A five minute long distance call today would cost about eight bucks. Damn. Right? Also, back then you had to do it while you're leaning against the kitchen wall while twirling a phone cord around your fingers. In a very private setting where your mom would pick up on the other line down the hall and yell,

Tyler, say goodbye to your little girlfriend. We're getting charged by the minute. Yeah, tough times. Tough times. Tough times I had growing up. And what boner killers for you guys, right? Hard times, hard times. Tough times I had growing up. And what boner killers for you guys, right? Hard times, hard times. I was thinking more like soft times.

So for Sarah, her expensive calls, well, they did turn into visits and her visits turned into vows. We got married and we had our first child in 1990. I was 18. Where we were living, our community was really dwindling in size. And some of our friends that we were close with had also moved across the country and we decided that we were going to move to a different state along with my parents. Now mind you, Sarah didn't wish to give the name of the church slash

cult that she was in, nor did she want to say where she lived. However, initially it was quite lovely. I would get up with my husband before anybody else and I would make him his breakfast and his lunch and he'd drive off to work. And I was allowed to make my choices back then his lunch and he'd drive off to work. And I was allowed to make my choices back then of how I would run the day, what chores I would do, take care of the animals. In the summer we had a huge garden. I homeschooled. We'd go to the library and get whatever kind of books and we'd read them.

They were allowed to play and ride their bicycles and have fun and be children. This community was starting to grow and we had different churches meeting and different churches observed the biblical holidays a little bit differently than others. One group felt that on the Day of Atonement, you fast all day, You abstain from food and drink the night before till the sun sets the next day. And so there'd be very solemn assembly the day of, and then we would go home, and then there'd be another assembly the evening of, and then we would have a meal together and break that fast. And the faction that was at the church there felt that we shouldn't eat together. But as cults go, there always has to be the token enemy of fun.

Hmm, and that person or group of people, they're always the ones who want to break up the band. Yoko. Don't! Yoko didn't break up the Beatles. I just said that to annoy you. I think it was Paul or George. I know how to get your goat. It's just cliched and trite to say that a woman broke up the Beatles. And that's where the breakup happened.

So there are probably 30 families at least, and I'd say about half split off. This is kind of where the cult starts. The church that we went to was originally a barn that they had converted into a church. And the guy that ends up being the cult leader, that's his property and his home is just a little bit down the drive. So that night, the people who went to the barn church parked in the barn church parking lot and the rest of us drove down the lane and parked in front of the gonna be cult leaders home.

So on the show, we tend to like to make fun of, you know, the cult leaders because as Sarah said in her original email to us, quote, You put those greedy for power and control cult leaders in a perspective that is deserving of them by not taking them seriously. So it robs them of their power, which is great. And in the past, we have given some apt monikers to the cult leaders. But in this instance, I think Sarah finds a better nickname than we would. So we have the shithead, also known as Baldi or the bald headed shithead. He is the cult leader.

So the cult leader today will be known as Baldi or bald headed shithead, which I have to give credit to is better than anything we would have come up with. Yep. But I do believe the actual pronunciation is chetheed. Oh, chetheed. French. It's French. OK, OK, so here's the truth. I'm obsessed with sleep like full on podcast documentary deep dive obsessed. I've read multiple books on sleepless.

Me too. And that's why I listen to you talk, because it puts me to sleep. Anyway, look, I've got all these sleep accoutrement, the weighted blanket, the perfect pillow, the foam mattress. But one of the most underrated pieces of the sleep puzzle, that's sheets, Liz. Sheets. Not just any sheets, bowl and branch sheets. We just got some bowl and branch sheets. and you know that heavenly feeling, you know, when you slide into your freshly cleaned sheets that you just put on? So good.

It's like that every single night. Bowl and branch signature sheets, guys, are made with the finest 100% organic cotton. They're buttery soft, breathable, and they get softer every time you wash them. And for hot sleepers like myself, I'm always hot at night. Their percale sheets are a game changer. They're crisp, they're cool, they're woven specifically to keep you from waking up sweaty and rationally angry at the walls. My bull and brand sheets make me feel like I'm a fluffy cloud riding a unicorn through

a field of blover. Mmm, float on, Unicorn Liz. But seriously, if you care about sleep, and I know you do, this is the upgrade you didn't know you needed. It's truly worth it. Feel the difference an extraordinary night's sleep can make with Bowlin' Branch. So get 15% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at bowlandbranch.com slash colt. 15%. Bowlandbranch.com slash colt to save 15%.

And I said that because I'm assuming you know how to spell branch. Exclusions apply. See site for details. Now we're back with Sarah where she has now joined the splintered off group that eventually of course morphs into the cult. In 1996, we have our second child and this is around the time that things get a little weird. So we just started meeting and it was small and they always seem to hold themselves kind of aloof. Like, we are better than the rest of the mainstream community because we follow the rules a lot better. We follow the cleanliness rules because one of the big things is women,

when they have periods, they're considered ritually unclean and they don't go to church. And that was normal. That normal, well, it comes straight out of the Bible, specifically Leviticus chapter 15 verse 19, quote, And if a woman have an issue and her issue in the flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days, and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the evening." Put apart. Put apart. Like what? Discarded? Like a broken appliance? Yeah. Yeah, you figured it out.

Like a suspicious potato salad that's been out on the countertop a little too long. Yeah, unclean, unclean. Right. So these these rules do go on for 14 more verses. We're not going to do all of them, but we'll have a bit more coming up. Oh, thank heavens. Yeah, I knew you'd be excited about that, Liz. And then after you have a baby, if you have a boy baby, then you don't go to church for 40 days. And if you have a girl baby, you can't go to church for 80 days.

Yeah, the Book of Leviticus has a lot of laws about that. It sure does. More than I really care to read. And more than anyone listening wants to hear. They're going to. Think that you're going to get more guys because that's the show. And there's a lot of laws about men and women's relations, how that makes you unclean. There's no sex the night before church.

You know, there's no sex on Sundays and no sex on holidays and things like that. Just don't do that. They're treating the church like a temple and so you need to be ceremonially clean. However, someone decided to read the Bible a little bit more closely and it's written, wherever the woman, whenever she's unclean, wherever she sits, it's unclean. That is Leviticus 15, 20, quote, and everything that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean, and everything also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. Meanwhile, dicks actually hangeth way the fuck out and toucheth things, dirty dicks, but nice,

polite, tucked in vaginas, unclean. Have you ever inspected a gooch, Tyler? No, no, you haven't. And you never will. Why? Because it's un-fucking you haven't. And you never will. Why? Because it's un-fucking-clean. Fucketh cleaneth.

Cleaneth. It's un-fucking-cleaneth. More on that later. Oh boy. And so they were more strict about that. And that's one of the things that changed. They decided that they're going gonna buy these little water sprayers and they're gonna spray the seat where the woman sat.

Then it was okay to touch it, but they started making rules around who could spray. Okay, okay, hold up. Hey, morons, water alone doesn't clean anything. In fact, you know what? Give it to us, Tyler. Stepping in, according to the CDC, water alone removes less than 10% of bacteria on most surfaces. And in a 2021 study from the Journal of Hospital Infection, yeah

that's a real journal. I've read it, love it, I recommend it. Unassisted water spray actually helps spread microbes up to 18 inches beyond the targeted area. So you idiots just spread that unclean goddess all over your dirty ass dick pews. Come up with this. Who's Leviticus now, bitch? Why are we still Leviticus? That's who is the bitchest. Bitch, yeah.

I just really wanted to say that, even though it didn't make sense. So for a while, only the men could spray it because the woman's unclean, so like she can't make anything clean. So if she sits there and sprays it, when she stands up like them, it's still not clean. So if she sits there and sprays it when she stands up like them, then it's still not clean. Okay, I'm really, really sorry to interrupt again, but I just can't.

Tyler, please put these idiots in their place. Happily, Liz. First off, multiple studies show that male genitalia actually carry more bacteria than female genitalia. A 2017 paper in the International Journal of Hygiene and Environmental Health found that men's groin areas are more prone to harboring microbes like Staph aureus, E. coli, and other skin and gut bacteria. The Journal of Clinical Microbiology, a great read by the way, I've done it cover to cover, reported that the area under the foreskin called the subprepudal space can harbor anaerobic bacteria like Prevotella and Preto-streptococcus.

Pepto. Pre-pepto-streptococcus. Good. Good job. Editor's Note. This took about 100 takes for Tyler to actually pronounce correctly, so if you're a masochist and want to hear that, stay tuned after the episode ends. Not only are they gross and difficult to pronounce, but they are linked to infections. A study in sexual transmitted infections, yeah that's a journal, not a toilet seat at a bus station, found that men are more likely to have residual urine and odor causing bacteria in their underwear than women.

Meanwhile. Meanwhile. Meanwhile, the vagina, it's self-cleaning. Yeah, it maintains an acidic pH of 3.8 to 4.5, is protected by healthy bacteria called lactobacilli that actually kill off harmful microbes. Oh damn. As Dr. Marnich from the Mayo Clinic says, quote, the best thing for the vagina is not cleaning it at all. Really, it takes care of itself."

Mike drop. I mean, the symbolism here is just a little too obvious. It is the cleanest analogy we've had this whole episode, possibly the whole season. A self-cleaning vagina. It sounds kind of like the extra add-on you'd buy when you'd get a vagina and the salesman would be like, would you like another $49.99? It's self-cleaning. It's worth it in the long run.

It is, it saves time and money. So my vagina over here is running a fully staffed microbial fight club and their dicks are spread knee-coly with every sweaty, sacred, holy, scooch on a dick pill. Pretty much, Liz. Pretty much. Spray that, baldy, shit-teeth head.

And if you touch anything that makes you unclean, you can't go to church. So my husband and I are sitting at the table having breakfast in my unclean time and my husband's foot, it accidentally bumps the chair leg of the chair I'm sitting on. So he didn't go to church. Which is ultimately good because his dick probably would have given someone a staph infection. People were unclean. If somebody had a venereal disease in the Old Testament, this made them unclean. So we're out grocery shopping and it'd be like, oh, did somebody touch you? I don't know. We're not sure. So then it became blanket policy. Can't touch people, can't touch like public seating areas. It was crazy thinking.

But it just becomes what you do. It just becomes a way of life. And now you're spraying everything. But of course, the rules, well, they tightened and tightened a little bit more. Now if you're a woman and you are in your period, you just shouldn't go anywhere because you're making the world unclean by you being unclean. And that's one of the things that changed. And I think this was aimed towards women because this group, the men, they're women haters.

They're like, women should be at home baking bread and cleaning the toilets, taking care of the babies and the house. And men should be out there spreading balanopostitis to the world. Go forth, ye dirty dicks, go forth. After I had the third child, this is kind of a huge turning point because up until that time we were meeting from house to house having church and They actually found property and built a church building We decided to have church more often, you know three times a weekend and different holidays and different other gatherings now mind you we're going to church every night. Everybody had to go unfailingly. Yeah, all the kids, everybody.

And you have to wait until sundown to have church now because the unclean shower thing, right? If somebody's unclean, whoops, we have to wait until the sun sets. So you basically are meeting at sunset to have church. But church ceremony at night, it was long. You sing a song, listen to a boring speech, sing another song. Then there'd be like the seven prayers. Everybody gets on their knees and they stand up and sing another song. And there's the same songs and the same prayers every night. You're just chanting. Yeah. You do the same ritual like every night. It's like an hour and a half, two hours long.

And then a dark decree befalls the group. This prophecy comes out that we're all gonna, we all have to part our hair in the middle. So we're used to curling our hair. It's the 80s. It's like, you know, we got the big hair here going on. And also we're like, you know, it's plastered in the middle. It's like, that's a really big change for women. It's like, I look so ugly. Yeah, then stuff starts going where you have to cover your head when you go to church.

Women had to start covering it more forward and forward and forward. And so pretty soon, you're not showing any hair. Then we started making our head coverings to have this flap that would flap fold. So this whole top of our head was now double covered in fabric. It was really hot in the summer and sweaty. And then we started changing the way we dressed. And it started with these long skirts and long sleeve tops. We're going to dress like that all the time.

And the men are going to wear this mandarin neck collar shirt with these long sleeves all the time. And so we had to make our own clothes because you can't buy that stuff in the store. I don't know how this happens. We're bored, I guess. And we're going to wonder where does sugar come from? Sugar cane is messy. During the production, the last part, when it's sugar crystals, it passes through a bone

charcoal filter. And all of a sudden, they start thinking, ooh, what's this bone char? It could be pigs. Oh, sugar is unclean. So we started cutting out a lot of food from our diets. We stopped buying a lot of things. You didn't go to the doctor regularly.

You didn't get vaccinated. So this is the healthcare. This is where it evolves to. Here, you got an earache? Let me heat up this onion. I'm gonna cut this onion in half, wrap it up in a rag and let's slap it on your ears. Nice warm onion.

There, don't that feel better? I wonder if warm onions work for dick E. coli. Shallots are better. They're less oniony. Less sting factor. Once in a while, people had to go to the hospital. Like if you're a cult leader and something falls on your foot and you're in a lot of pain, it's OK to go to the hospital.

But if you're a woman that has a mysterious illness, you don't know what's wrong with you. Just like, oh, shoot, no. Can't send her to the hospital because the hospital might decide to admit you. For some reason, that was bad. One of our sheep got something in its eye and it was infected or something.

So the sheep gets loaded into a trailer to see a veterinarian for treatment. But I had a baby and had stroke level hypertension and needed medical attention, but I didn't get it. And it was okay if I died because, you know, that was God's will then if I died. We are going to take a short break. Time for some ads. Do not skippeth them. No, do not skippeth, for it is written in Leviticus 19.6, he who disregardeth the words of the sponsors shall be declared unclean,

yea, he shall remain unclean until the end of his days. And then all that he toucheth shall also be unclean. I'm looking at you and your subpreputal space, Todd. Yes, I am. Subpreputal. Word of the day, subpre-putal. Tanya Larkin So the other day I looked in the mirror and I realized I've been wearing the same sad summer outfit since like, I don't know, 2018, same tank top, same shorts, same maybe I'll try today energy. So I decided it's time to level up with Quinn. So you guys, I'm talking actual linen like the fancy European kind,

but without the, did I just spend my rent? Price tag. I got a pair of their linen shorts, little black linen dress that basically makes me feel like the breeziest woman at the farmer's market. They've got swimwear too, super sleek, and these Italian leather sandals. Let me just say my feet finally have dual citizenship.

Here's the thing, Quinn's works directly with artisans. They cut out the middleman and keep the prices way lower than the usual suspects. We're talking 50 to 80% less and it's all made responsibly with real grown up quality. I really do love Quince. I know our listeners, you will love them as well. Try it today. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quints. Go to quints.com slash colt for free shipping on your order and you get 365 day returns. That's q u i n c e dot com slash colt quints.com slash colt. And we're back with Sarah where the rules rules of the cult, well, they are, they're strange.

Let's just say the sheep gets to go to the vet when it's sick. But when Sarah falls ill, she gets to go tan some cowhide or whatever you do to cowhide. Things were just always so weird and they're always changing, too. Things were just always so weird and they're always changing too. And then they decide that they don't like my parents because my dad is very intelligent and he's very learned in the scriptures and he posed a threat because he's starting to question some of this stuff. And so my dad and mom got kicked out. My parents, by the way, are the kindest, wonderful, loving people. So now we no longer talk to our parents. We no longer talk to our brothers and sisters. It doesn't matter. We stopped talking to my in-laws and his brothers and sisters because

they don't believe like we do. We're doing something different now. We're going to follow Christ the right way. We weren't supposed to see them anymore, and that was really sad. That was really, really hard. We just started having our own gatherings, and we're looking at the Scriptures more carefully. There's a lot in there about submissiveness, and men are the head of the household, women are below him because Christ is above the man and the man is above the woman. All right. This one we've read before on the show. This is 1 Corinthians 11 3. This passage has been widely cited and misused in patriarchal religious settings to justify male dominance and female

subordination. Quote, But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of every woman is a man and the head of Christ is God. And the head of every man carries E. coli beneath the holy hood of his shaft. You just can't go, Amen. Amen is right. More like, ew, men. Get your shit together. Try being self-cleansing for once. Like us women.

The sayeth the CDC. Yeah, it started out with my husband telling me what to do. Today, you're going to wash the curtains and you're going to clean the house and you're going to make roast and potatoes for my dinner and you're going to go out in the garden and you're going to pick tomatoes and you're going to can 200 pounds of tomatoes and then we'll go to church tonight. And by the way, I want to say my husband, dear man, is not to be blamed in any of this. We were living in fear and none of the stuff was because he wanted to. He was instructed to do that. We were governed by a really horrible person that didn't

care and had no feelings. The women are supposed to do what they're being told. The men are supposed to do what they're being told by the cult leaders. So this thing starts happening where the men are being invited by the cult leader on Sundays after church. The man would have to drive up to Shithead's house and he had this little room off his house and he had to have a meeting with him and the man would get reprimanded. He'd be given instructions. They would say stuff that he should do to his wife to make her miserable. And they came up with this thing called a consequence. So, the consequence is like this. Let's say you're just a normal woman and husband says, I want a piece of toast for breakfast and

I burnt the toast. How dare you burn my toast? That is a consequence. And I'm like, you burn my toast. That is a consequence. And I'm like, sure, whatever. What's the consequence? You are going to bake a batch of bread tonight after church. Whatever. Why are you so grouchy about it? So I bake a batch of bread. That's five lows. So a couple of days go by and I did something else wrong. It wouldn't be anything major. It'd be like I salted the salad wrong. And so because of that, he'd say that's a consequence. And then pretty soon we have 30 loaves of bread in the freezer. So then it became other consequences every day. Make four dozen tortillas. So I'm out there rolling tortillas and slapping them on a hot pan until all hours of the night. Another one was, go get a lamp, weed the garden. I was splitting

firewood tonight. Your consequence is going to be washing the car. Okay, it's raining or it's 32 degrees. This was one of the worst ones. We had a cowhide that we were tanning. The cowhide was sitting in this big trash barrel of ash water. I had to lift that cowhide out after church at night and slap this drippy wet gross smelly thing onto this table horse, they call it, slap it on there and I'd get this putty knife and I'd have to scrape that inner lining of the cowhide so that you could tan it. And then there was another night where I was unclean and my husband decides to give me consequences to do while he goes to church with the children. So the longer consequence was to butcher five chickens by

myself. So I went out there, it's dark, I'm butchering these chickens. I'm hurrying because I'm like, I'm going to be done and then I'm going to go to sleep when everybody goes to sleep instead of staying up. I was fast, I was efficient. I ran around, I did everything, cut the necks off, dumped them in the water, plucked them, cleaned them, everything. I got these chickens all slick as a whistle. Husband comes home. I'm like, hey, I'm done. He's like, all right, go butcher five more.

I was like, for reals? And at this point, there's no more backtalk. Because if you back talk, that'll be 252 quads of quizzes. How dare you? I'm like, oh man, you just, you no longer questioned. But it'd be things like the tablecloth was crooked at church. The child did not stand there the entire time with their hands folded, so therefore I wasn't mothering them properly. It was just, it could be anything. It wasn't, it was made up. And after a while, my mind was just going, this is crazy. So I started keeping this notebook and I would

write it in there, like what I have to do. And then I was also keeping track. He would say it's 123 consequences. I'd be like, Oh, I'm at 123 already. Ah, this is terrible. I'm such a bad person. And then the next time he'd say, it's 127. And I'm like, but in the book I'm only on 120. You skipped some. Dang it. How did I, you know. And they started giving consequences in church. So after church was over, then they would just yell at us. They'd be like, how dare you do this? Oy, living like a 1700s prairie farmhand is punishment for crooked tablecloths. All of this because of the following of an ancient text called Leviticus and the ego of Mr. Shithead.

Shetheed. The ego of Mr. Shithead. Shitheed. He is a shithead because he led this group of people, these innocent people, who just wanted to worship God in the truest way possible and just live a good life. And he destroyed our family. My husband and I didn't have conversations anymore about, oh my gosh, how are you today? What did you do today? How was work? Ah, this funny thing happened. No, there wasn't any of that anymore. I had to be quiet. I had to be silent. We stopped being allowed to have vacations. There were no picnics. You didn't go anywhere. If you're a man, you went

to work, you came home, your family went to church. We used to take walks on Sunday afternoons after Sunday church, and then my husband started taking walks alone. I'd look out the window and he's out there taking a walk without me. I was so sad. It would make me cry, did a lot of crying. And it was horrible because the old bald-headed fart, the shithead decided they knew how to nurse children and take care of children. So this is how we had to raise the baby. The baby was kept in a crib in a separate room.

Every so many hours, I could go pick up the baby and feed it, change its diaper and put it back. Hugging and all that wasn't allowed. If the baby cried, I was not supposed to pay any mind to it. And there was a day in particular, this is a very heartbreaking day. I didn't have the baby for too long. The baby was quite young. And I had to go out and pick tomatoes from my garden. We had a large garden and I was out for hours picking tomatoes. And at night after church, people stopped in to buy the tomatoes from us.

I wonder how they would feel if they knew that a mother who had just had a baby had been out in the hot sun picking all those tomatoes and that little baby was laying in bed crying. I'm a mom with six children and a husband. I am so lonely. I feel lonely. And that's what that isolation does to you as a woman. In your mind, you're isolated, you're nothing, you're the dirt on the ground. You're lower than the than the sheep This is a hierarchy. It's the husband the children

Those beautiful sheep and and then me it just felt like no matter what happened. I was I was shit You know, it just it didn't matter. I Was so defeated by then matter. I was so defeated by then. My dream was to one day never have consequences so that my head could lay and touch the pillow at the same time at night as my husband did after church, so I could sleep because I was sleep deprived. My husband is so mean to me and he hates me. I was treated so poorly. I had a lot of anger. I would break things. I would throw things. I would just get so mad. You know, if my husband said tonight dinner is going to be ground burger, I would have to go to the freezer in the garage and I would grab

frozen chunks of meat and I would throw them back in the freezer as hard as I could. I'd hit them together. I just so, so angry, but I didn't want my children to see me angry like that. Lots of anger. I hated how mean my husband had to be to me, that I wanted to leave. And it was so bad. People on the outside were so bad and so evil that I couldn't leave. We'll be right back. shocking for something like this to happen in our little town. Focusing on the communities affected by life-shattering crimes. It made news throughout the entire region that these two people had been shot while they slept in such a safe community.

To give a new perspective on the devastation crimes can cause. It was shocking for something like this to happen in our little town. Featuring cases from quiet towns to bustling cities and interviewing the people closest to the case. My first thought was that it's an unusual location for us to have a homicide. Listen to the True Crime podcast, City Confidential, and step beyond the yellow tape to learn just how far a crime can reach.

There are certain cases in the history of Boston that I think sort of define the city. I think this is one of them. New episodes of the City Confidential Podcast are available every Thursday, available wherever you get your podcasts. So if one were to choose the villains of this particular story, it would be both Shithead and The Husband and Leviticus. Yeah. And perhaps my filthy, filthy germ-laden penis. Always to blame.

But like many movies of the week, the antagonist has a change of heart and becomes the hero. This is the story of my badass husband who said, the hell with this. So he's running his own business now. And he goes to a like a training class and he comes back and he's wearing a different shirt. It is a button down shirt. They gave him like some swag and he's got this little screwdriver set and we'll tape measure. And he gives this swag to one of our sons.

And I'm like, what's going on? He's dressed really weird. And he's giving our child a gift. What the heck? This is so strange. And he says, I'm not going to church today. He gets on his bike and takes a bike ride and we go to church. And he does this for a couple of weekends. And I'm going to church

without my husband and I'm lamenting because I'm sold on this whole idea that all these consequences and all the submissives and this is we are building this holy matrimony between husband and wife. This is true love. This is how men and women should really love each other. Women should unquestionably be submissive to their husbands and do everything they're told to do. And that's going to be the holy matrimony. And I'm like, I'm widowed, I'm spiritually widowed. This is terrible. I think my husband went to church one more night and he saw just some discrepancies where people were doing stuff that we were supposedly not supposed to be doing, but they were doing it.

Part of it was one time he saw that one of the church members, it may have been the shithead himself taking a walk with his wife on a Sunday. And there was kind of a little bit of a hierarchy going on. It seemed like some husbands didn't have to be that mean to their wives. He just realized that it was the hypocrisy. And he just, he hated being a jerk. And he was lonely. He missed me. And he just did not want to do this anymore. And that was it. And our children went to church that night.

That was the last night our children ever went to church. He calls my parents and he tells them we're out. And then we all get in our van and my husband drives us to see one of the state parks in our area and we spent the day at the park. I was freaked out. I was just like, this is scary. I thought at any moment, like the wrath of God was going to fall upon our home and there was going to be like lightning and this dark black cloud was going to kill me. Never happened.

And my husband drove us to my mom and dad's home. I'd never been there. It was dark. They lived out in the middle of nowhere and we drove up to their house and they're standing out on the front porch and there's these two lights and it's like a carriage station, you know. It was so homey. We drove up and they're waiting and they step off the porch.

It was my mom, my dad, and my sister. They walked up to us and we walked up to them and we embraced them and turned. I remember looking into my mother and my sister's eyes and into their faces and having this immediate feeling of like coming home, like my heart had come home. It could come to my people because I'm related to these people. This is my family. It was such a good feeling. For the longest time, I grieved the loss of that life, the loss of the promise of the Holy Matrimony. There was a loss of identity, of not knowing who

I was now. I was trying to reestablish a life and have freedom and decide what I'm going to do. And like all cult aftermath, there is quite a lot to unpack. We were malnourished because we would fast a lot, no eating or drinking all day. We had lost weight. This doctor said that we shouldn't send our children to school that year. She said, just relax, just heal, and just have fun. And our children did different things to heal. One of them built a nice big bonfire in the backyard and started burning our clothes and things. One of his cousins gave him some bags of her clothes

that she didn't need anymore. She was out like outcast clothing and he brought them home and said, hey, you know, there's some clothes. Why don't you try them on? And there were a lot of clothes and we were trying them on and liking them. The head coverings came off, pants came on. We explored with different foods. My husband and I went to the store and we bought ice cream and spaghetti and our kids are like, what is this stuff? And they didn't know what an ice cream cone was. And so when they saw me actually eating the cone, they were like, what is mom doing? We got a camera and we're taking pictures.

We didn't have cameras or pictures before. We all got bicycles and we would ride our bicycle. We would go to parks, showed our kids what swings and slides were, took them to the fair. Got more ice cream cones. I got a lot of ice cream. You know, I feel like ice cream is the perfect panacea for post-cult trauma.

That first lick of Rocky Road. Mmm, that's not just dessert, guys. That's deprogramming. Yeah, I eventually got a haircut. I highlighted it. My hair got shorter and shorter and I loved it. There's nothing like being able to step out on a warm day and feel the breeze go through your hair.

It's such a good feeling. We watched Shrek together as a family and there's this part where Fiona, I think Shrek picks her up and she's yelling and she's like banging on his shoulder and she tells him, how dare you? And I remember there's this moment where, cause we heard how dare you, well, how dare you always came right before that of a consequence.

That was a really hard phrase to hear. And I remember we're just like, and we've all looked at each other and then I think we just smiled and then we were like, ah, and then we watched the movie again. And because she's a badass, of course, she forgave her husband. She never blamed him because he, too, was under cult control. And she understood that. Today, a normal day in our life is we get up together.

He makes coffee and then I make our breakfast. Sometimes he makes breakfast. He goes to work. I go to work. I drive my own car. I have a job. I am a pharmacy technician. We come home.

Sometimes he makes dinner. Sometimes I make dinner. We make whatever we want to make for dinner. We take walks together, we go out to restaurants and have food sometimes together. We just are normal people. I love my husband, that's the best thing. And the fact that I feel so loved and so respected by him and he's so supportive of me. He thinks I'm awesome. I think he's awesome too. My children are amazing and they're free too because my husband's a badass and got us out of the cult. I came out of there, a woman swathed in yards of

fabric. I think it took about seven yards to make my clothing and another three yards of fabric or so to make a head covering. Like you're cocooned and all this stuff. And then to become free of it. I'm like a butterfly bursting out of those layers of fabric that I was wrapped up in. I came out of that cocoon and now my hair shows

and it's free to blow in the wind. And it's no longer parted in the middle. Thank you, Sarah. Not just for sharing your story, but for surviving it without losing your sense of humor or your capacity to love. Or your ability to tan a cowhide. You see, there's this idea in cults that freedom is dangerous.

But Sarah didn't just leave. She unlearned the fear, reclaimed her body, and most importantly, took back her voice. Which is what makes her the most dangerous of all, of course, in the best way possible. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with a doomsday cult that harbors in a multimillion dollar bunker in Montana. The prophecies were intensifying and there was already planning for the shelter building. And I just decided, look, if we're going to have to survive a nuclear war, I want to have

something to do with the planning and the building. And my mother had told all of her members from all over the world that March and April were, like, get your ass to Montana, basically. I'm going to go wash my nether regions now since I don't have the self cleaning option. I should have gotten that. I'm ready to go. Thanks. Thanks for self cleaning me. Do do do do do. Bye.

Ding ding ding ding. Have fun in a shower. Rinse cycle complete. Rinse cycle complete. Your vagina should make that little dishwasher noise when it finishes. Do do do do do do. Was I gonna call this Produce the Ritten hosted by me, Liz, the squeaky clean Bajin. I am queasy.

And me, Tyler E. Coli Poli. Me some. Sad. Dirty dick. Sound mixer and producer, Rob. Staff infected staff. Assistant editor, Greta. I don't really feel like I should address her privates. Give it a nickname

without her consent. Stromquist. Very long nickname. Thank you. Wash your damn dicks! Go clean it! Go clean it, my friend! Washeth thy dickets under thy hoodeths. Take out your knife, purify me.

Don't spare my life, crucify me. And also a good read, the Journal of Clinical Microbiology reported that the area under the foreskin, called the subprepudal space, I'm going to start calling it that all the time, can harbor anaerobic bacteria like Provitella and Peptoceptopolis or something of the like, which not only are they gross and difficult to pronounce, but they're linked to an Pivotella, can harbor anaerobic bacteria like Pivotella and Peptoceptococcus, which is not only gross and difficult to pronounce. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. And Peptoseptococcus. Peptostreptococcus.

Which is Peptoseptocroccus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus.

Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Go ahead one more time. To be fair, no one's paying attention. Peptostreptococcus. Peptostreptococcus. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Go ahead one more time. To be fair, no listeners are gonna know what this is.

No, if we get an email from someone who's... Peptostreptococcus. Put some respect on the name. Peptostreptococcus. And Peptostreptococcus. Break it down. Peptostreptococcus. Break it down. Pepto-Streptococcus. Like strep throat. To cockus. Pepto-Streptococcus.

Pepto-Streptococcus. And Pepto-Streptococcus. I'm sorry, guys. It's going to have to pass. Pepto-Streptococcus. Pepto-Streptococcus. Please put this at the very end of the episode. Pepto-Tele and Pepto-Stecococcus. Peptosteptococcus. Please put this at the very end of the episode.

Peptotella and Peptostechococcus. Peptostepto-coccus. I'll step in real quick. He's trying to say Peptostreptococcus. No, you're not. I can do this. Continue. I'm not passing the bar.

Sometimes a man needs to know his place. Can harbor a man's name. I'm not passing the bar. Sometimes a man needs to know his place. Can harbor anaerobic and can harbor anaerobic bacteria like Prevotella and Pepto-Steptocacus, which is not only gross, which is not only gross and difficult to pronounce. Some might say impossible to pronounce. You broke my mouth with... Step the pep-a-duck-a-bass.

Any good Rob or is that just a bloody mess? How would we feel about taking it from the top now that we've had a stab at all the words? Great. Alright, hold on. What is it? Get some water in you. Pepto... Strepto... Streptococcus.

Preptostreptococcus. Pepto. Pepto streptococcus. You want me to put it how it's pronounced in the document? No, I got it. I just did. Preptostreptococcus. And Prevotella. Prepto step to caucus. Prepto. your life.