Was I In A Cult? - International Socialists (Amsterdam): "How Come We're Socialists But We're Not Social?"

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

In 2007, at 19-years-old, Hella had a boss who molested her at work, and no one to turn to. Then one day, walking through her university square in Amsterdam, she met a group of people full of conviction. Passionate about the injustices in the world. And passionate about doing something about it. They were a far-left political group. A Trotskyist splinter organization called the International Socialists (aka Internationale Socialisten). They knew who was to blame (the capitalists). And they knew what it would take to fix it... ...a goddamn revolution. 14 years later, after giving them her money, her twenties, and her autonomy… after the tragic death of a fellow female comrade… Hella woke up to something she couldn't unsee:  The exact thing she'd been fighting against was running rampant inside the group that claimed to be against it. __________________________________________________________________ FIND HELLA You can find Hella on Facebook (Hella Baan). She said if you'd like to send her an email, go for it! [e-mail] HELLA'S WRITINGS DURING HER TIME IN THE GROUP Hella's article archive at socialisme.nu (in Dutch) — the articles she published as a comrade, a rare window into her voice from inside the organization REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini  The Guardian's 2013 coverage of the SWP / Comrade Delta case -- Shiv Malik and Nick Cohen's reporting on the Martin Smith rape allegations and the party's internal cover-up Monty Python's "Splitters!" scene -- the People's Front of Judea vs. the Judean People's Front Monty Python's "meeting" scene -- where the People's Front of Judea proves you can have all the feminist rhetoric in the world and still be an all-boys club IF YOU WANT TO GO DEEPER  "The SWP Crisis: Some Reflections" -- a widely-cited insider account of the 2013 crisis at the SWP, written as it was happening "Apology Not Accepted" -- a 2024 follow-up from ex-members proving the pattern Hella describes is alive and well today The Party is Always Right: The Untold Story of Gerry Healy and British Trotskyism by Aidan Beatty -- the definitive account of the abuse and authoritarianism inside one of the most infamous British Trotskyist groups, and the lineage Hella's organization descends from FOLLOW US Instagram → @wasiinacult TikTok → @wasiinacult SUPPORT THE SHOW Join our Patreon! Ad-free episodes, bonus content, behind-the-scenes conversations, and our forever gratitude. HAVE A CULTY STORY? Email us → [e-mail]

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I want to do my story because there is. a lot of younger people like me and they want to contribute to the world and it is pretty shit to take advantage of them and let them burn out and take their enthusiasm and make them into revolutionary robots.

Welcome back to our show Was I in a cult? Was I in a cult? I'm Liz Iakuzi. And Was I in a cult? I'm Tyler Meesum. And today, y'all, we have a hell of a great story for you. She's hella cool and hell brave. And her name is also

Hela. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, I would never use that word. Hella dope name. Hela joins us today from the beautiful town of Amsterdam. I wish I was in Amsterdam right now, honestly. It's a riding a bike. Yeah.

Going into a museum. Yeah. That's how my son says museum. A museum? We're going to the museum, mommy. Yeah. Go to the museums. Sit by the canal and have a beer.

Drinking a cold good beer. Yeah. imagine. Although America, your beers have improved. I don't drink beer, but if I did. If I did. I'll drink it for you. Yes, Hellas spent 14 years inside a far-left political group called the International Socialists. A Trotskyist group in the Netherlands, which is part of a bigger network that stretches back to the UK. We'll describe a little bit more of this later. So, yeah, we're getting political today, guys. Yeah, send your emails.

Oh, get mad. Let me get emails. Free up the email. Except we're kind of for the other side. I mean, it's just... Complaining because we are right. Right. Right.

This time... We're an equal opportunity picker on her over here. That's right. Just don't be a cult. That's all we're going to say. Just don't do culty shit and we won't pick on you. Have you guys? not gotten the memo yet yeah you want to stay off our show yeah it's easy it's easy it's pretty

easy we're not going to pick on you right yeah yeah cute little bookstores we're not going to pick on you yeah gelato shops yeah delicious shop there three times a week take the free samples and buy the carton we don't care yeah but if you turn into a cult you're a gelato shop on our podcast yeah if you take your gelato and then you make people go to Italy for four weeks a year to only make the specific brand of gelato and then all of a sudden, yeah, you might end up on our shop. If you have employees in the basement, 24 hours a day, crushing pistachios for free, if you're saying that your gelato is the only way to eat gelato, that there is no other way to eat gelato that is the best way to eat gelato that all other

gelato factories pale in comparison. Well, you're on your way to a cult. And you might be on our show. Van Luen. It's making me hungry, though. That's what it's making me do. I do. I would love it.

Actually, if anybody knows of an ice cream called, I would love to do an episode on that. Let's do that. Let's do that. How fun would that be? Send us your stories. Send us your stories. Your stories of like, you know, forced labor in an ice cream factory, and we will put it on this show. Even if it's not true.

We'll do it. Yeah. How you were sex trafficked into a chocolate factory. A Rocky Road. Like Willy Wonka's factory being a cult. I want to do that show. That's a full-on. Don't tell me that Willie Wonka's factory is not a full-on cult.

Well, look at the Obalupas. Aren't they willingly? They were trafficked. They were not only trafficked. were, they're not paid. No, they've got a cult leader. And they're all in their own uniforms. They had to paint their faces orange.

They didn't show up orange. Singing in unison. And then they bring these people in, recruit them in. And they shame them. Abuse them, verbally abuse them, physically abuse them. Put them down, shoots, and upshoots and just dispose of them. Charlie gets to join the cult. He's the chosen one.

Right. the chosen one and why? Because he's the only one that didn't question and didn't break the rules. Holy shit, we just discovered. But today is not about chocolate. It's about socialists. So without further ado, please welcome the hella, hella, hella, hella, hella, hella, cool. I'm hella, that's my name. I was born in 1988. in an ambulance. So what you need to know about me, I'm a bit of a geek, so I really like mythology, I like making collages, I like arts, and I like justice. As a kid, I was really, yeah, out there, not maybe a typical kid or something, so I did get bullied because of that. But I was also in my

small little world, so it didn't matter that much. My parents are really kind people, always joked about them that they're like, yeah, brav, how do you say? Like a bit tame, because they had their childhood in the 70s, you know, but they didn't do any of the wild stuff, really. So when I was growing up, I wasn't actually that politically involved. I did hang around with people were kind of alternative, like the gotics, like the skater, kids. We were all the rejects together, and that was really nice. It was a really fun community. I was a teenage girl, and I wasn't really popular. And there was this boy who was interested in me.

And he'd done me in a really nasty way by ghosting me. And that was really dramatic for me then. It was really horrible. So I discovered my mom's feminist books. And I thought, yes, I'm going to go to Amsterdam, join the women's movement, never have any guy again, you know, just skip all that. I went to university. When I went to Amsterdam, I was just in the time.

tale of the anti-globalization movement. Yeah, what was going on was like critique of big corporations, greediness, like Starbucks, world leaders. You also have the crash of the financial system at some point and I wanted to improve things around me. But for me, I was looking for this woman's movement. I was looking for a community. Well, so, okay, Amsterdam is a big city. but when you are strange, like Jim Morrison says, people seem strange. And I was like, oh, where can I belong? I think for me, it's stupid to say, the politics wasn't really the thing that drew me in. It was more the loneliness.

And one day walking through the University Square between classes, Hela spots a group of people with a stack of newspapers and a headline that was designed to make her stop. I'm sorry, every time we say her name, I just want to be like, Hello. Hella cool. I kept saying that to her in the interview.

I was like, he's a hellicool. She likes it. It's just my name. I got guest approval to make this continuous joke, everybody. Doesn't mean I like it. They were trying to get the attention of the students passing by, and they had these papers with this really large font, you know,

with a kind of a yell like a bocernander criminal or something, I don't know. I think they gave me a leaflet for the meeting with actually an American veteran who went to war in Iraq, and then he was going to tell about this war. I'm really curious about people's stories, and it felt really urgent. So Hela, naturally intrigued, she attends. Why not? The Iraq veteran wasn't able to make it, so one of the organization in his stead, had a story. And yeah, I just listened and then I left without actually, you know,

having spoken to anyone really. But I did put my details on a mailing list. And so they emailed me for a Marxism festival. So there's a lot of topics. And I saw on the topics that they would have a discussion about sexism and rape culture. And I was really curious, about these subjects. And I think what is important for the story also that I started my first job in 2006 when I moved to the city. And it was a job in a restaurant,

washing dishes. And the boss was really sexist, actually. And he was touching all his female employees. And he was approaching me, standing behind me. He started kissing me on the mouth. And I felt really dirty afterwards. Like I wanted to wipe away. So I did it when he moved.

I wiped it away. But I never dared to say anything of it. Because I felt like everybody is accepting it. And if I don't accept it, I'll make a fuss. And then he might fire me. So I went to a Marxism festival because I thought I found the feminist. I was like, ah, so now I can go there and meet more of them. So I went to this talks about sexism.

and I would go to the whole festival because, you know, hey, I paid for this thing, and I'm Dutch, so I'm going to go to everything they offer. And the speeches are very intense. And then they were talking about socialism but also communism and was like, shit. I'm in a room full of communists. Do they even exist? I thought they, you know, they died out. So I was like, oh, fuck. But these people were kind to me.

And they talked to me, like, I was the best thing since Slash Bread. And then someone came up to me. I said, yeah, you should definitely have some coffee with Comrade C. She did the meeting. You didn't call her Comrade C then, but I just kind of refer to everyone as Comrade C or whatever alphabet letter. So they remain anonymous. And yes, this woman called me after, and she actually did the talk. So she was like kind of important, right?

So yeah, we went for coffee. I told her that I want to be a feminist and I believe that there's injustice and inequality and that should be different. And then she told me how, what will you do about the wars then and what will you do about the system and the poverty and such? You don't just need equality for women.

You need to change the system. And if you join the organization, then I will introduce you to your coffee. and we will say, let's go, change the world. But I did not sign up just yet. I did not at that moment. So they invited me, come to our meeting, and afterwards we went for a drink, and then there was this guy, and yeah, he felt a bit like my old friend group,

a bit alternative, a bit a rebel without a course kind of guy. And he told me that I should really sign up. And he gave me vodka, and then, yeah, I did sign up. And then I joined party. Now that sounds like quite the party. But what Hela just signed up for after the vodka and the guy with the long blonde hair, after being told her opinion mattered for the first time in a long time, what it's called is the International Socialists.

A far-left political group in the Netherlands, part of a global trade. Trotskyist movement, which comes from a very long, very complicated line of communism. The idea of communism that comes from Marx, of course. She's, of course, talking about Karl Marx, not Groucho. Which is the party I would join. Okay, so Marx has his idea, communism, and it gets popular, and he and other people start the first international. And, yeah, I hope I'm explaining this correctly, or I'm going to fail.

and socialist history, but you know. No pressure, Hella. I mean, it's only the entire history of the international socialist movement in 30 seconds. Which, as it turns out, involves a lot of people agreeing about communism. And then disagreeing about pretty much everything else. The first international stopped working because there was a split between the socialists and the anarchists. Split number one. Then you have a second international.

and that went wrong because the First World War happened. Oh, that small skirmish. Yeah, that little row. And then you have the third international, and that was started by Lenin, among others. And now Lenin has entered the chat. She is, of course, talking about Vladimir Lenin, not John Lennon. Now that is the party I would join.

And that is where the fourth split happens. because Trotsky wanted to counter this development by Stalin. If you happen to be keeping score at home, we've reached the finals of this battle. Trotsky versus Stalin. And it's a close match. Except not that close. But before Tuske was killed,

he wrote a lot of things and he started his own fourth international. Yep, Stalin came up and did Trotsky dirty. Exiled him from Russia, chased him around Europe, eventually sent a hitman to Mexico City in 1914. who killed him with an ice axe to the head. My God. Oh, the old ice axe to the head.

Oh. That's actually a check on the deceased form at the morgue. But don't worry, murder doesn't affect socialists, apparently. Stalin died peacefully in his bed at the age of 74 of a stroke. While in power, he had never faced a single consequence. The hitman, however, he served 20 years into Mexican prison and then he got out. And when he got out, the USSR gave him a hero's welcome. They named him a hero of the Soviet Union, which is the highest honor.

It gave him a medal. He lived out his days comfortably in Moscow and Cuba until his death. But killing Trotsky did not kill Trotskyism. No, it survived the way most socialist movements apparently survive everything. By splitting into even more socialist movements, which is how we ended up here today with a 19-year-old in Amsterdam getting recruited into a splinter of a splinter, of a splinter, of a splinter. Splinter.

And out of one of those splinters, emerged a British activist named Tony Cliff. Cliff is the founder of the International Socialist Tenancy, which inspired the group Hella would eventually join in the Netherlands. I want to be in the Netherlands. I want to be on a bike. They're serious about their bikes in Amsterdam. It is not a Sunday drive in Amsterdam. bike. They are mean and they all go in the same direction. They all go very fast and they merge very

quickly. It's not a stroll. It's very serious. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but you could get run over. So yeah, you can cue in Monty Python for this because you have all these splits and developments and issues and arguments. Okay, this clip is brilliant. It's from Monty Python's Life of Grine. If you haven't seen it, It's the famous People's Front of Judeasine. Are you the Judean people's front? Fuck off. What?

Judean People's Front. The people's front of Judea. Judean people's front. Whantos. They're going to crucify him. Right. This calls for immediate discussion. What?

Immediate. Right. New motion? Completely new motion. Uh, that. That, uh, that there'll be, uh, immediate action. Once the boat has been taken. Well, obviously, once the boat's been taking,

you can't act on a resolution, tell you. Yes. Hello. A little eager trip from the feminists. What? That honestly might be the most concise explanation of socialist history we've ever heard.

And the most accurate. I felt like, oh, I met this fun group, and they invited me for a birthday party. I didn't know those people, but I went, because maybe they want to be my friends. I remember going there. And there was hummus. There were snacks.

Sorry, there were snacks. I mean, that explains a lot for sure. Oh, look, Tyler got a shout out. Yay, snacks. I love snacks. Look, we often talk about snacks on the show and how cults use snacks, but there's actually a pretty solid body of research behind this

and is surprisingly relevant to cults, sales seminars, MLMs, churches, political groups, timeshares, real estate agents, and even Costco samples. M-Presto Tordlini always tastes better in a tiny little paper cup, doesn't it? It does. It does. Social psychologists have spent decades studying something called reciprocity. One famous researcher, Robert Chaldini, in his book, Influence, found that people are surprisingly likely to comply with requests if somebody gives them something, even something small. And we tend to feel a sudden urge to give something back. So true. You know when that happens, you feel obligated to listen to their spiel. You might give an MLM even your email. Or you might end up buying a 25 pound bag of Pesto Tortolini.

Or you might sign up to lose your friends and family to a high control self-help group. Or that. In fact, anthropologists have found that food sharing is one of the oldest ways humans establish trust, create alliances, and reduce perceived threat. And, you know, so I ate the snacks. I mean, it was hummus, not popcorn. I would as too. Hummus is an elevated snack. And once the snack eating had commenced, a man slides up for some seemingly benign small talk,

a.k.a. the recruiter. Except it wasn't benign, as this man would ask her. The eight-worded question that would alter the course of her life for the next 14. 14 years. What do you know about Latin American politics? They said that to me. Yeah, I was like, I haven't thought about it much. Can you tell me more? The question came from a guy, Comrade B, and he had this long, blonde hair, but, you know, he really actually wanting to hear what I had to say. I was, yeah, embarrassed and I didn't know a lot about it. So I listened for an hour and a half. to him talking about it. And that is what happened to me. I was so open to new ideas. And these people were so happy to tell me their opinions and their research.

And pretty quickly, I just thought the way they thought and I repeated it to all my poor family and friends. It was also the idea that I, as a new member, should be socialized in the organization. And in order for me to become that, I needed to consume endless amounts of the right literature. and listen to talks and be involved in the practicality of all the things. I would also need to realize that the older comrades knew better than me. And what is important to know is that the meaning of comrades for the group, a comrade is more important than anyone.

It is more important than your blood relations, your family, more important than your friends or your lovers, because they are all wishy-washy, you know. They have dirty talks. I mean, they're out in the bourgeois society. And I would also need to learn in this party to be separate from bourgeois society because you get ideas in the society that are harmful. And this organization was going to be a safe haven for me.

And it would be a place for my ideals, but it would actually give me a basis to develop as a person. That was how it was. could. And yeah, at the time I believe that. Listeners, I didn't want to do this publicly, but I feel I must be honest with you. Our co-host, Tyler, is involved with a Bowlin Branch cult. Involved is a strange word, but you said it. Well, it started the way all these things start, right? Love bombing, somebody telling him,

you deserve better. No, I did deserve better. And then they hit you with the organic cotton. Uh, it's not what usually happens? And then the isolation, suddenly his old sheets were, quote, toxic, and his comforter was holding him back. Yeah, well, they were, and it was. So, yes. He cut off all communication with all of his old bedding.

I mean, they trapped heat, so of course I'm going to. Now he only speaks in loaded language. breathability, temperature regulation. The weave is structural. Yeah. It allows airflow. Right. I've said it before.

I'm sick of hearing this. How you used to wake up sweating. Yeah. And then my sheets were stuck to my legs. But now I sleep cool through the night. Yeah. And then I've never felt more rested. Yeah.

Or more clear. Or more clear. That's how they get you. First, the sheets. Now you're talking about the pillows. Now you're talking about the waffle blanket. Yeah, the waffle blanket. I got the waffle blanket.

Yeah, before you know your entire bedding belongs to them. I actually buy beds just so I can put more sheets on them. But you know what? I understand. Just, you know what, Liz? Try it. Just lay down. Lay down.

Five minutes. Just lay down. Now I'm okay. Lay down, Liz. Try it. Just try it. It's only five minutes. There's snacks.

Oh, wow. Those are nice. Yeah. Take it's softer with every wash. Oh my God, he's a upsetting doctrine. But wow, those really are nice sheets. Yeah, and you know what? You can sleep cooler this summer with Bowling Branch, Liz.

All you have to do is come to one meeting, their annual summer event, a limited time. You get 20% off sitewide at bollumbranch.com slash cult with code cult. That's Bowling Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D-B-R-N-C-H.com slash cult, Liz. It's easy. Code cult. Take 20% off. We all know you can do it.

Bolandbranch.com slash cult, code cult. Exclusions apply. They always doing cults, don't they? Wait, what was it? 20% off? Code cult. 20% off, Bolandbranch.

com slash cult. All right, fine. I'm in. I'm in. Just come to one meeting for God's sakes. What kind of snacks? Okay, we're back. And now for the irony of this particular group and many other cults,

this group that is fighting. capitalism, fighting hierarchy, fighting inequality, well, it has all of that going on for it. And then some. So informally, there are a couple of people in the organization that are really revered and really powerful. And that's why some of the people in my former organization are for years and years in the leadership because people follow them and because people give their minds over to them. I mean, in the International Socialista, we as members had discussions about things, what we should do.

But we already knew that some people had a strong opinion about what we should do. And then instead of democratic, the organization gets more centralized. And the centralization is where the high control comes in. An extreme form of centralization is, of course, a dictatorship, because the dictator knows everything and tells people what they should do. There is a bureaucracy. You have to fill in the form. You have to pay dues every month as a student. I remember it being like eight or ten euros a month. For me, that was a lot at that time. Later, I paid a lot more. Your status would go up if you paid more money to the organization.

And members were always asked to pay more because, yeah, then it is possible to hire more people to liberate them from actually doing work for corporations. So wait, the more money you pay, the more status you get in an anti-capitalist group whose entire ideology is that everyone should be equal? That's not socialism. That's a country club. Or an airline. Or Disneyland.

Or concert tickets. Or casinos. Credit cards. Yeah. I have the play. platinum cult card. Actually, it gets me points. What are the benefits?

I get a front of the line. I get to go to the front of the line. No waiting. Every cold. When I want to be chastised by the leader. Scientology will take you right away. No waiting. On the standby list, I get more snacks.

Yeah. More free snacks. They're stale, but they're still free. I never saw myself of someone who could work for the party because I thought I wasn't deserving. I wasn't good enough. But all of the members. are required to put in their free time.

They actually gave me a chore, which was smart, because I had tried to resign. But this guy that fed me the vodka, he was like, nah, hell are you not resigning, you know? Let me talk to you because this isn't actually that much work. It's just pretty easy. You only have two moments. You have the paper sale and you have the monthly branch meeting. You can do that easily. And I had a crush on him.

So he talked me back into the party. Then they tried to keep me busy with tasks. In 2009, they took me to this huge demonstration. It was a no-tunator demonstration in Stratburg. So they asked me, do you want to help out with the buses for the big demonstration? So I was like, oh, I'm a good girl. Yes, of course, I'm going to help you with the buses. I can do this.

We went with two buses full of activists. Okay, so we go to the city. I've been back again and it's a beautiful city. It has a historic center and it's all medieval. It is. It is a gorgeous city. I've been to Strasbourg. Strasbourg, actually, Tyler.

I was there when I studied abroad in Luxembourg, Luxembourg. This is back when I was fluent in French, if you can believe. It sadly, I am a little longer fluent in French. My study abroad mom, she would call me, USA student. That was my name. Strasbourg sits on the border of France and Germany, now picture canals, medieval buildings, and cobblestone streets.

And a meeting place for world leaders, apparently. Yes, in 2009, world leaders were meeting in Strasbourg, France, for a NATO summit. And every anti-war, anti-globalization, anti-capitalism activist group in Europe descended upon the city in an attempt to shut it down. But we were never going to the center. We were going to the outskirts because there would be an activist camping then. And we went past the city and there were tear gas cannons and barbed wire everywhere and police and riot gear. It was like there was a war. But then I was like, oh shit, we are the war, the activist.

You know, we are here to say no to war. And then we went into the activist camp and that mood was weird. we were still in the bus and I saw this dumpster. It was on fire with car tires, weird. And the fire was high and I was like, what happened here? This is really spooky. And then I put up my tent. The camp was great.

I mean, I love the camp. They have kitchens in the outside so people could get food. There were doctors on the site. Also, they had a really large crate full of condoms, make love, not work. I did like the spirit of that. I still do. We slept on this field, and there were literally in the night choppers going over the field with searchlights, because they were really wanted to annoy us, apparently.

And it was like, whoa, this is next level. I just came here to be like a hippie, you know, peace, love, you know, sing kumbaya. Yeah, what the fuck is happening? And we got up at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, and we were going to this, peaceful demonstration. So basically the whole day we were chased after by riot police with tear gas

and there was one person in my group she got hit with a canister in her face and it was bleeding the wound. At that point we were really chased so they were running after us and the line I was like, oh no, I didn't know I had to train for this. Police was really raising their batons

and they had shields, you know, I was like, oh, I'm going to be toast shit. But then I really had an adrenaline spike. I was like, I didn't understand then how dangerous it actually was, that we were like newbies in this. And this was permitted because true revolutionaries go against the circumstances is the idea. And, you know, this is kind of sort of an utopia you're working towards. Yeah, we were part of something bigger there.

At that point, we had a tight, bonded group. It felt like we really went through something. so the connections in the group got really stronger and more cemented. I start trusting them more and feeling like they have the truth and not question things because they kept me safe and unbrateful and they showed me something and I think that is vital so it really rocked my worldview, so to say. This is a textbook indoctrination through shared trauma. Hella walked into Strasbourg and ideally,

list and she walked out a soldier. And as most of these groups go, soon it slowly took over her life. A typical week is like going to university every Thursday or something to sell newspapers in the evening. And I could also be asked for tasks like writing articles or giving talks. So by week would be filled by more and more of that activities in the evenings and in the weekends and I would spend less time on college, my studies or less time with friends or family. I think what I skipped is making really friends in this period because I was looking at everyone

as a potential recruit for the organization and I definitely missed out on some parties or some alternative lifestyle stuff. Yeah, I was 100% just putting my life in service of the organization. I wasn't looking at different career options. I was not looking for my own development. I was thinking always in the idea of what is important for the organization, and I have to facilitate that, and I have to be of service to this. So at this point, Hela is deep in the group. She thinks she's found her feminists.

She thinks she's found the good guys. And then in 2013, a story breaks about the group's mother organization in the UK. and Hela is about to find out what her good guys do when it matters. Well, in 2013, there was a rape scandal at the Socialist Works Party. What happened was that they had a higher-up. Yeah, they call him Comrade Delta in the literature, and he was in the leadership. And there was a woman speaking out against him,

and she told people he had raped her. And another woman spoke out. She also said she was raped by Martin Smith. Oh, yeah, Comerdelta. Well, his name is known. Hey, Colts, grab a pencil, write this down. If you don't want to be called a cult, don't handle rape allegations with an internal committee

of the accused rapists' friends. Yeah, don't do that. Also, if you're a business, probably shouldn't do that either. Also, if you're a political entity, don't do that either. In fact, if they're rapists, maybe just get rid of them. Maybe see them before they come out as rapists and get rid of them before then. That can go on both sides, hence the news we're just seeing. Anyways, for the record, the Comrade Delta case was covered by the Guardian in 2013.

Over 100 SWP members resigned in protest. Novelist China Miavel left the group, journalist Richard C. Seymour compared what remained to a Jones Town movement. It was one of the most public crises the British left had ever encountered. So there is also a tendency not to go to a lawyer and not go to a police because they are part of bourgeois society. But when this happens to you, you go to your comrades. And your comrades will then say, look, you can't go to bourgeois society

because they're your class enemy or whatever enemy. And then really weird things started happening. This whole group that says they are against sexism and they are against rape, they started victim blaming. And they also had this petition signed by 100 people in support of Martin Smith. Without actually looking into what happened, they were already supporting him. This couldn't be. He couldn't have done this.

And the leadership always, it happened to be males in the leadership. and I was used to listen to them. Because, you know, what do I know about Latin American politics? These people know better than me. I trusted them. I listened to them. And they told me how I should think about this crisis, is what they termed it, because I was afraid to do my own research.

And I never questioned how it was possible that in this mother organization that I was a member of, how there could be a rape there. But as a feminist, I can. knew things don't happen that way, they're created that way, there is a system. These ideas were in conflict because the organization told me, look, we have a perfect system, we have democratic centralism, so there's democracy. You can say as a member whatever you want, you have equal status. But if I wanted to talk to them about it, they got defensive and they replied to me, look, you shouldn't point your finger at us,

point your finger at yourself because obviously you're not proactive enough, you're not, you know, good enough. You didn't read enough marks. I'm actually, I think I'm hurt and disappointed in myself for being so, for letting these victims down because they were raped and they were hurt and I was silent in my own organization and therefore I was complicit. Welcome to Was I Anna Quince. Liz, thank you for agreeing to speak with us today. Well, Tyler, didn't have much of a choice, did I? You know, Liz, that's what they all say.

Now, when did you first come in contact with Quince? Oh, God, it was a perfect t-shirt. Was it linen? Oh, that was second. Linen was next. Cotton and then linen. That's the progression. Cotton was the gateway drug to my linen.

current obsession. Yeah, and then what? And then it was pants, and then a sweater, and then some gold hoops, and then I just turned around, and my closet had quietly become quince, and all the other outsiders had been cast aside. Yeah, that's what they do. Did they promise status, secret knowledge, free shipping? Yeah, free shipping and really nice clothes, like premium, luxury, wonderful quality clothes that don't cost a fortune.

So, sorry, sue me. Don't get defensive, Liz. It's okay. It's all right. We've been there. It's not your fault. Liz. Okay, look, they have 100% European linen.

Pants, dresses, tops for like half or less than half of what you would spend anywhere else. So. Good. This is good, Liz. Let it out. And they're lightweight, and it's easy to style, and you don't have to think. And everybody always compliments. They're like, where did you get this?

Oh my God. That looks so. Great. Sweeters, okay? Let's just take their cashmere for one. They start at $50. Cashmere starts at $50.

Okay? I understand. I got a full jumpsuit, a full jumpsuit for less than $100. Do you know what that cost in other places? Over $200. And the quality, it doesn't, and when I, hold on when I wash it,

it doesn't shrink, it doesn't lose structure, it doesn't lose softness, doesn't pill. And everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories, ethical. Yeah. And they cut out the middleman, which is why you get to buy amazing quality for half the price. So again, sue me. Okay. So it feels like you no longer choose the outfit. The outfit is choosing you, Liz. I think we do have a lot of work to do. In the meantime, It's okay. Go on. Shop. You can make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com slash cult, free shipping on your order at 365 day returns. It's now available in Canada.

Right. The recording in Canada too. And guess what? You guys, sign up. Yeah. Take the pamphlet, guys. Take the brochure and attend the meeting. It's worth it. I don't know if you're ready yet. I don't know if you're ready to. Yeah. Look. Stay away from it. But if you're sure. If you're sure and attend the meeting. It's worth it. Look. Stay away from it, but if you don't stay away from it, go to quince.com. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash cult. Again, they're going to promise you things like free shipping and 365-day returns. That's quince. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but can you just look at this jumper? Put it away, Liz.

I'm just going to look. No, honestly. It's time. There were usually like five steady people in leadership, and it didn't. changed much and they were always saying oh we want more people we have such a heavy job it is so intense but it was never very inviting because i was like ah if i go there they're going to eat me for breakfast because i don't know i haven't read enough books or i'm not as seizear enough or you know i won't be able to pull my weight um and at some point it was in 2017 there was Trump got elected there was a really

a shock also in the Netherlands. And there was also women's marches happening in the Netherlands, same as in America. And in the Netherlands, we also had Geert Wilders, a Dutch politician. He was also a right winged politician and he got also a lot of voters. So we were really shocked and we were scared. I had friendship with two other people, women of color and a trans person. And they told me that if the leadership wouldn't diversify itself, then we could try to get in as three people. to go from the inside and change it. I was like, this is insane, but why don't we just try? I mean, this could be an experiment.

And this man in the leadership, they were actually a bit shocked. I do believe that some of them really also felt in between. Okay, this is awkward because we say we want a diverse leadership. And at the same time, they were quite scared of the people I was trying to go in the leadership with. And I think, to be honest, they also felt I wasn't. really an ideal candidate. And I really felt that they never said to me outright,

you're not suitable for this. They always told me, yeah, you can go in the leadership. We got really a lot of votes because they just didn't have any other candidates. So they had to accept us. They had to accept me in leadership. So that's how I got in.

And now Hela sits in a leadership position. After 10 years of shopping, growing up, after Strasbourg, after the rape scandal she stayed silent through, after hundreds of newspaper sales and thousands of euros and dues and weekends she could have spent with anyone else. She got what she thought she wanted to be a voice of change. But instead, what she got was more like her voice changed.

And, you know, I was straight on to the revolution, you know. That was my goal. And actually my friends noticed it. My best friend at the time, she actually at one point just ended the friendship with me because it was too intense for her and she didn't recognize me anymore. So Hela did what everyone in a group like this does. She stopped trying to make friends outside of the group and she started looking for friends within the group. My friend Selina and I met her, I think, pretty early on when I was a member, the student actions activism. It was 2010, I believe. She smiled a lot and she would chat up everybody and make connections really fast. She was very loyal and she was with every discussion, with every branch meeting. And we bonded over our love for alternative music, so rock music and

metal and that kind of things and a friendship developed but in the organization I had a really hard relationship with her because I always felt I was a little bit better than her because you know I felt I could do better or know better and

I let her know so I was quite belittling her around the time that I got elected she also wanted to be involved and I kind of dismissed that a little bit and I didn't listen to her I was just making her feel like she did something wrong.

And then it was the day before Christmas Eve and all of a sudden her sister called me in the evening which was weird. And her sister had told me that she was in a car accident. The sister told me

Selena died and I was just shocked and I remember another person who was in the leadership coming in my place and we were calling together and he had to cry but I just I couldn't cry because I was, yeah, I was totally not on the same page. I was just like a robot repeating this message mechanically.

And then soon afterwards, I started feeling really, really, really guilty. Like really guilty for just being such a horrible person and being not a good friend. And at some point somebody during their funeral said to me, look, this is a sign that you're grieving. that you're feeling so guilty that you get it, but I felt there was a thought in my mind, like, look, something is wrong. And I just took her friendship for granted. And I feel awful, I'm gonna.

I felt it from deep, just a regret. Like, look, I could have been there so much more. And now because of this cruel dad, there is an abrupt ending to that, and there is never any more person. and there was no space for me to be a friend. I didn't have that personality anymore that I cared for people because of the people they are.

I just cared for what they could do for me. It was a very functional relationship. I was actually also, when I was there, I was kind of a shitty person and I felt to be nice to other people was like a weakness. But I was actually treating them very poorly and also people were not kind to me. And as a person, I also started disappearing.

So I became more what they wanted me to become and less living of my own values and in contact with my own emotions. And I started reflecting on how I was treated in the organization in return. I was treated like some kind of robots who could just put off her emotions and be of service. And I felt that was not really social. How come we are socialist but we're not social,

towards each other. What kind of better world are we fighting for if we teach each other like robots for the revolution or something? I mean, from that point on, I felt I need to really change how I look at other people and also maybe how I am treated myself. But something really cracked inside me that said a lot of things in motion, really. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, visit odu.com to book a demo. It's ODO.com. Now when we last left Hela, her friend had just died and something inside her had kind of cracked open. What happens next

is the slow, painful work of getting out. Yeah, also I started doing therapy and I had a new relation then. I still am with my boyfriend now. He's amazing. I really love him so much. And I felt with him a kind of trust and a kind of exchange that gave me like hope and gave me back some feeling of, oh, but this is also how you can treat people. You can also treat people like they're decent. I mean, I learned this from my parents. I learned this from my friends. I learned it again from him. And also Selena, you gave me back some of that. And I'm a lot. And I I wanted to be treated like that again, myself. And I felt at some point that I really have only one choice.

Either I could forsake my whole person and just give over to them and be what they wanted me to be completely. But I felt no motivation. I just felt utter dread to do what they wanted to. I just couldn't. My body physically was like, no. But leaving didn't happen overnight. It took two more years of huge.

Humiliation. A new woman in leadership, the second woman ever elected to leadership, publicly criticized Hella. She told her she was embarrassing. She sent emails accusing her of not being a proactive comrade. Also, I had all kinds of tactics, which were really bad. I mean, we had meetings online, and when my dear comrades would make all their beautiful points about revolution, I was shopping for underwear. So, yeah. Maybe that in itself was kind of a rebellious act like, you're not bullshitting me. I was checked out at that point mentally, but physically I came at some point like, look, I can't do this anymore. And then at one point I realized, like, look, I can just quit. I could just get out.

And then I have my free time back. And then I can just sort through this mess and just see whatever. So then I decided, okay, I'm going to. with. After 14 years, recruitment, Strasbourg, rape scandal, Selena, public humiliation. After all of it. Hella resides and walks away. Oh, hell yeah. I was told that I would have the freedom to be who I am and become more myself in this organization. And I was lied to, but the whole experience this helped me to become more developed as a person

because now it also humbled me. It just showed me that I'm just very human and I'm feeling strangely more connected to other people than I felt when I was in this group because this group separated me from other people, alienated me from the small moments in life and from the pleasure and from the enjoyment. Everything that happened to Hela,

the love bombing, the group think, the gaslighting, the shunning. Every one of these tactics is being used right now. And not just by cults, by political movements on the left, political movements on the right, online, offline, everywhere. They are everywhere these tactics. There is polarization now as we speak. I see people from the left and the right and they're screaming opposite each other.

I was part of that. It also removed us farther from each other. see and maybe more people have to see if they can accept it, that we might have different ideas, but we might also overlap, and there might be room for each other to negotiate, to exchange. My advice would be ask them a lot of questions, because with questions, you might actually be able to plant a little seed in their head by discovering their points of views.

Everyone Hela loves had been through this with her. boyfriend, her parents, her old friends, and they just kept the door open. And when she was ready, well, she walked right back through it. Which is maybe the most annoying and most exhausting and the least glamorous way to reach somebody you love who's in something that they can't get out of. And you can't get them out of. But it is perhaps the most effective. And yes, of course, it is this show. so we had to ask her the question. Hela, were you in a cult? Okay, yeah, recognizing to see where it was a gradual process,

I still think I'm working on it. You're part of my process, Liz, and Tyler and this whole episode are a pride of my process, I think. In your podcast, I hear people with a similar drive for freedom and expression. I hear these amazing stories about women who leave with eight children after being brainwashed for years. And I'm thinking, damn, that's resilience. That is power.

That is true drive. And if they can do it and if they can set such an example, then I can do it. When I left the group, all my nights were free in the weekends. And I quit all the groups. So I could just sleep in with my boyfriend and we go to the beach. And I could go to my family and I could visit my nephews. And I started creative writing. For me, it comes down to his...

going back to the person that I want to be. And I've learned that for me is really important to be connected to my emotions because I've found some sort of inner peace that I can really be empathic to other people. I don't have to think the same way exactly like other people around me and other people don't have to think the same way like me. Hela joined a political organization when she was 19 years old because she was lonely and an idealist. She was someone who wanted to be a force for good.

And today, well, she still believes in the causes that originally brought her in. She still believes in women's rights and workers' rights, in fairness, inequality, in standing up to harassment and injustice. She just doesn't need a hundred-person Trotskyist splinter group to tell her exactly how she is meant to believe in those things anymore. And hey, cult, you might want to pull that notebook out and that pencil. If you don't want to be called a cult, let people leave, for Christ's sakes. Thank you, Hela. You are. In fact, as we always knew you were, hella cool.

And hella brave. And hella good at speaking a second language. I mean, come on, isn't her English great? Yeah, she did sound really nice. Kudos. She's also hella badass. We're going to be back next week with a Tyler Creation. Yeah, Tyler Special.

I suppose so. It's Tyler Special. It's a bit of a departure from our usual episodes. We will be discussing at length the story, the saga, the tale, the epic saga. I already said saga. The epic tale of a man who was in Fleetwood Mac who disappeared. Ooh, into a cold? Yes.

It's a great little story. When I had a hell of a good time researching. He landslideed right in there, didn't he? It's all right, Liz. That was a bad. That was a stretch. It was so good. That was a stretch.

Okay, that's why the show is over. I am Liz Hella dope. Iiacuzi. And I am Tyler Hela Radmese. And then we have our mixer, mix a lot, sound mixer. Mixer and Fixer. Mixer and Fixer. Mixer and Fixer.

Editor, Extraordinary. Rob, Hela. Rob Pera. Perra, yeah. Just hella. Just Hela. Also, Greta, Hela Stromquist. Hella.

Helestromquist. Greta. She did some assistant editing on this one now. Yes, thank you, Greta. You rocked it. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Join our Patreon because it makes you feel good about yourself,

and it makes me feel good about myself, which is equally important. It helps pay for this air-condition because damn it's hot in my house. I'm got to go turn it on.