Was I In A Cult? - Jehovah's Witnesses: "Michael Jackson Was Just 'Michael' to Me"

Episode Date: March 30, 2026

As a young teenager, Darls Centola was searching for something steady in a chaotic world. What she found was the Jehovah’s Witnesses—a religion that felt warm, structured, and safe.What she didn’t expect to find… was him.Not the King of Pop. Not the global icon. Not Michael Jackson. Just Michael. A shy, curious, thoughtful teenage boy looking to her for religious guidance. What unfolds is almost impossibly pure. Two kids hiding behind their school not to smoke pot, but to talk about faith and opening orphanages one day—all while trying (and failing) to suppress feelings they aren't allowed to feel. Because inside their dogma, a crush isn't just a crush. It could get you killed at Armageddon. And as their bond deepens... so does the control. Until the belief system that brought them together… is the very thing that tears them apart.This isn’t a story about fame. It’s not a takedown. And it’s not a defense.It's about first love. And a deeply human, intimate look at a version of someone the world thinks it already understands, set against the very real, very damaging impact of cult abuse.And the uncomfortable truth that both light and darkness can exist at the same time.______________Today, Darls Centola is a licensed clinical social worker, educator and EMDR consultant with a focus on the impact of spiritual abuse and high control systems. She has written a memoir about the innocent and heartbreaking time in her life inside a cult with teenage Michael Jackson from the POV of that young girl. A time that didn't just change her life... but may have quietly shaped his too.Purchase Darls' memoir here: "Finding Truth with Michael: A Memoir of Friendship, Faith and First Love"Find Darls' workbook and other resources on her website: findingtruthwithmichael.com FOLLOW US  → For more culty content — follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacultSUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our Patreon! Get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and behind-the-scenes conversations. (And our forever gratitude)HAVE A CULTY STORY?Email us → [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, listeners, quick announcement, we are moving homes, not literally moving domiciles, but we are taking the podcast to a new distributor. It doesn't change anything other than the little logo in the corner. Still great cult stories. All of this to say that we will be taking a two-week break in April. Yes, but we will be back in May with so many incredible stories coming your way. And we just want to take a minute to thank you, our dear listeners, for all your support of our show. on this journey. If you've been on from the beginning, shout out to the OGs. If you're new to us,

welcome. We're just grateful. So thank you. Yeah. So you can continue to support us on Patreon. We really do appreciate that. It means a lot. In the meantime, we have an episode. Yeah, let's get into today's brand new spanking episode. Gosh, I don't even know where to start with your story. Okay, let's start at the beginning. Or maybe we start at the end. Your book brought me to tears. Thank you for that. It's a story about a cult, obviously, and the damage that creates.

But it's a love story. A sacred time that everybody pretty much experiences. Yeah. Yours just happened to be with Michael Jackson. That's right. It just shows that we're all just human, right? Right. That even Michael Jackson could get inculcated into a cult.

Of course. Welcome back to Was I in a cult? He's Tyler. And that's Liz Igoosie. Yes, she is. And today is a story that caught me by surprise. When I first heard, it was about Michael Jackson.

I clenched. He did a full body tightening. I did. I did. And because I do have strong opinions about Michael Jackson. Who doesn't? He is a talented artist. I am not going to dispute that at all.

But he is also accused by multiple individuals of sexual abuse with children, and these allegations have been widely reported. They've been revisited in documentaries and print. These accusations have been denied by his estate. Myself, personally, I have heard these accusations, and I don't like them. I can't even listen to Michael Jackson anymore, as I'm going to say about that. So let's just be clear. We're not here to defend him nor debate those claims, nor are

we here to platform an accused rapist sexual abuser? That is not what today's episode is about at all. So before you start drafting the email about us platforming a pedophile, just hang with us for just a second, guys. Our guest today is Darrell Santola. She is fascinating. She is brilliant. She's now a trauma therapist.

But once upon a time, she was a teenager in Southern California, indoctrinated into the Jehovah's Witnesses cults. And it was there that she met a. very young, not yet, Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson. This is not a sentence you hear often, not every day. And this isn't a story that you've heard before. This isn't about fame or celebrity in the way you may think. This is about belief.

It's about youthful innocence and how suppression and shame manifests when both of those exist within the confines of a cult. And it's also about first love, the kind of love that never quite goes away. Sounds like a good story. Maybe I'll listen. So just open your ears, guys, open your minds, open your hearts, and listen to how cultic abuse fucked you up.

But also watch the HBO documentary on Michael Jackson. It may make you think differently. So with all of those things in mind, in your head, please welcome today's incredible guest. Why don't you just introduce yourself? All right. My name is Darrell Sintola, and I wrote this book called Finding Truth with Michael, a memoir of friendship, faith, and first love. I was born in 1959.

My mother came from a Jewish upbringing, but was not religious. And my father was from a Catholic upbringing and also didn't practice. And so my parents were not really of any faith. So you grew up where? in Sherman Oaks in the San Fernando Valley. And my parents ran modeling schools. We lived in this big house in the hills. Everything looked really good on the outside, but on the inside, we were broke.

And it was a mess. My parents were going through a bankruptcy, a divorce, and a foreclosure on the house. And my sister and I babysat for these neighbors who were Jehovah's Witnesses, and they were such a loving, warm, intact family. And they also, by the way, were pop stars. The father was a former member of Paul Revere and the Raiders. You would have to be my age to know that group. But they were a group from the 1960s.

And the wife, Tina, was on where the action is, a Saturday dance show. So they were sort of celebrities to me. A band! She mentioned a band. This is where I step up. A relatively obscure band that, Well, I can talk about. Paul Revere and the Raiders formed in the early 60s.

They formed out of the rock and roll hotbed of Boise, Idaho. Yes. Now, they weren't just a band. They were kind of a concept. They were clad in full Revolutionary War uniforms. It's true. They had like tricorn hats, ruffled shirts. It was kind of their response to the British invasion of the 60s,

you know, the Beatles and the Stones. But they had legit hits like kicks and hungry, good things. and later they had a number one song, Indian Reservation, which is about Cherokee people. It's a really strange song. You know that song? Cherokee people. Cherokee. It's an odd song, regardless.

It was the 70s. Now, they became the house band on where the action is. It was an ABC music show created by Dick Clark. It ran from 1965 to 1967, beaming them straight into America's Living Room. Now, Darles mentioned Tina, the white. of the band leader, Paul Revere Dick, was a part of that show. I see you smiling, Liz. Yes.

Paul Revere Dick is his real name. Go ahead. The British weren't the only thing that was coming. Thank you, Liz. Thank you for chiming in. So Mr. Dick, all clad in his revolutionary warpants and his wife, they were the Jehovah's Witness family that Darles was babysitting for. and they prayed before meals and they seemed in love and they were warm and kind to their children.

And slowly I began studying the Bible with the wife and my sister and I began going to the Kingdom Hall with them. And they were advocating for my sister and I with our parents who were very against Jehovah's Witnesses. My mother, she was a powerful woman, very opinionated, really intelligent and liberal and not a fan of Jehovah's Witnesses. She called it a cult, and I did not understand what that meant. She just forbid me to go. And that was fuel for my fire. That was great. Every kid needs a little bit of rebellion, and that was mine. So despite her parents' wishes that she not attend, or maybe because of her parents' wishes she not attend, Darles at the young age of 13, along with her older sister, started attending the Jehovah's Witness Church, which is known as Kingdom Hall.

Don't tell me you haven't seen them. They're everywhere. They all look the same. They're like McDonald's. They just look the same. And then there are several meetings a week. And these meetings take place at the Kingdom Hall, which is really very nondescript. They all look the same. They're just these plain, simple buildings. There's no crosses or anything that looks like a regular church. And you walk in and you wouldn't know that you're in a church, actually. You don't know that it's religious except for the way the seats are and there's a stage in front with a pulpit. And then there's places where you would deposit an envelope with money. And then there's another place where you deposit your hours, or this is the amount of time you

have spent witnessing to others, because that all gets reported to the Watchtower Society. So what was happening at these meetings? So the meetings took lots of different formats. Sunday was a lecture. Then during the week, there were study meetings where you would study the literature, and you could raise your hand and a microphone was passed around, and it was considered really admirable to make a comment. And the thing was to be able to quote a biblical scripture and then talk about its meaning. Jehovah's Witnesses are very much into interpreting the Bible. And the one thing that always interests me about Jova's Witness is there is no one leader, right? Yes, there's an organizational structure where elders are selected, and they're the ones who run the meetings. And then above them, there are regional elders, and then above them is this Watchtower Society in Brooklyn. And that's where the men at the top get the information from God to write what they write in the Watchtower magazine, the Awake magazine, and all of the literature. Lots of literature.

And so this was 1972, 73 when I started getting involved. And so we were waiting for Armageddon. Armageddon was due in 1975. It was expected any minute. It was printed in all the literature. It made me frantic to get my parents and the rest of my family involved because I really believed that they were going to die at Armageddon. It's really violent and dark to amends.

Imagine that paradise comes after the loss of everyone you love through violent death and blood running down the streets. That's how it was depicted to us. Oh. And did you have new opinions of your parents? I didn't look down on them. I was more concerned with converting them. That was my mission, was to get them to hear my message. And when you're a Jehovah's Witness and you're baptized, your job is to witness.

In other words, recruit. We went door to door, as Jehovah's Witnesses, come knocking on your door. The women are dressed really very modestly, and the men are always very clean cut, and they're polite people, and they don't seem like they're in a cult, really. They sort of seem like good citizens. So how fast did you go from like, oh, that's cool to like, I'm a true believer? Probably six months to a year. And then I went toward getting baptized. And then I started behaving like a Jehovah's Witness, which meant I couldn't salute the flag.

And at my public school, that was a mourning expectation. So I got sent to the principal's office repeatedly for refusing to salute the flag. And I was suspended for a while, and then I didn't want to go back. So my sister saw that I wasn't going to school. And she got out the yellow pages and started calling private schools, asking if they would consider allowing my sister and I to go for tuition in exchange for working. She called this one school, and the woman answered the phone, and she said, yes, come on in. And we took the bus there the next day. And she had just started a private school in this area called Encino. The school was actually in a house.

There were 30 students. Each class was a round table with a whiteboard, and it was the most fantastic thing I'd ever seen. So we signed up to go to school that very day. So our commitment was we took the bus to school. We went to our daily classes. We cleaned the bathrooms. Took the bus home. And we went to about three to four meetings a week. So when does Michael enter your life?

At the school that I went to, it was known that I was a Jehovah's Witness. It was a fairly small school. and Michael was in classes with my sister and she was also known as a Jehovah's Witness and he asked her if she would study the Bible with him he said his mother was a Jehovah's Witness but he wanted to be more involved and learn more about it.

So she said you should ask my sister because she studies the Bible more than I do and he very humbly asked me if I would teach him the Bible and I said absolutely and he said can we start tomorrow and I said yes And then he asked if we could study every day.

So he really wanted intensity. What was your knowledge or feeling about him? Did you know that he was at this school? At this time, we'd stopped cleaning bathrooms and we were working in the office. And so I knew that the Jackson's were coming because I was privy to inside information. I was not a Jackson 5 fan.

It was the Jackson 5 then. He had not yet become a soloist. But I didn't have any of their records. I wasn't a fan. But this was a school filled with celebrities. So I wasn't starstruck by him. By the way, for those who aren't aware, prior to his solo career, Michael Jackson was in a group called the Jackson Five

that consisted of him and his brothers. And they weren't some little indie band. Their first four singles all went to number one. I want you back. ABC, The Love You Save, I'll Be There. Michael was a child star at the highest level. level. Is there anybody listening that isn't aware of this? I don't know. You know, we have a lot of young listeners. I don't know. I just want to make sure that they know that there was the Jackson Five.

If Tyler's actually giving you new facts here that you weren't aware of, please email us. I'm sure few people knew about Paul Revere. Yes, no, that, but I'm saying this specific. But this is, who did, just cut, just covered all the basis. I bet they didn't know that they're first four singles all went number one. Maybe that's pretty amazing. Maybe you're right. Pretty amazing. I didn't actually know that.

So there you go. There you go. This one's for you, Liz. Regardless, we will be back. We'll be right back. I am in all of my purchases, which aren't many. I'm much more about quality than quantity. I just don't buy junk, right?

I'm not persuaded by sales tactics and gimmicks and I'm not fooled by sales. I just don't buy stuff unless. I need it and it fits and it lasts, which is why. I buy my stuff and I really do. I buy my stuff from Quince. He does. He does buy his stuff from Quince and so do I, you guys, because this stuff actually feels elevated. Like you don't feel like you're getting like crappy things for the price you're paying. You actually are like, what? I paid what for that? And there's all kinds of stuff on there. Like a suitcase. So much stuff. We bought a suitcase. You did. I really want the carry on with the pocket and frying.

Uh-huh. Sturdy. You get yourself that, Liz. You get yourself that. The reason they can do it is because they cut out the middleman. You're not paying some fancy store or a brand markup. And they have seasonal stuff right now. They just got a whole new linen collection.

Don't mind if I do. Spring collars, lightweight pieces, stuff that will last. I love their cashmere still wearing it. Years later, actually. We're all happy. But it's not just us. Quince is consistently rated like 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of people, real people, wearing it, liking it. You don't need more clothes, you just need better ones.

Right now, go to quince.com slash cult for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year. You can wear it and love it. And you will. Now available in Canada for you Canadians, so take advantage. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. go to Q-U-I-N-C-E-D-com slash cult. You're going to get free shipping. You're going to get 365-day returns. Quince.com slash cults.

Tell me about how your relationship evolved. I reported all the time that I spent with him talking about the Bible or studying any of the Bible aids. I reported that to the Kingdom Hall. But we ended up having a friendship beyond the Bible study. This school, by the way, was this modern structure that was unlike anything on the boulevard. It was bright orange and white and octagonal. And it might have been another shape, but it had these very bizarre angles. And so it was this huge campus.

The parking lot looked like a movie studio parking lot, but those were the cars of the kids, Ferraris and Mercedes. It was just this wild school. There was a smoking section where kids were allowed to smoke and they hung out with the teachers. We called them by their first name, which was very odd 45 years ago. So Michael and I, he wanted privacy in our Bible studies. So he asked if we could go off campus. And we were allowed to go off campus. So we found this little storm drain behind the school, just behind the school in an alley. And it had these cement banks on the side. And it was covered with eucalyptus trees. and we would go back there and hide during lunch hour,

and that's where we had our Bible studies. Every day. Every day that he was in town. And Latoya joined us as well at times, and she was part of our group. What was your interpretation of Latoya? How did you feel about these people when they entered your life? Latoya was so pretty and put together,

and she never wore the same outfit twice. She was the opposite of me. I can tell you that. And she looked like everything was designer and her nails were done and perfect and beautiful. And she was so sweet and soft-spoken and the nicest person ever. And when I first saw her, she came into my English class and I thought, that's the kind of girl who would never be friends with me. And it turned out we became very dear friends.

So in these one-on-one meetings, what would you do? We did a lot of laughing and goofing around. I have to say I don't think I ever laughed as hard in my life as I did with my friends Michael and Latoya. And we spent hours on the phone. We would continue our Bible studies after school, either talking after school, and we were consumed with the magazines, the books, underlining passages, talking about this eternal life in paradise that we were going to enjoy together. And at the same time, how were we going to get our families to believe this?

wouldn't die at Armageddon. That was the tension. So how long was it before you realize that you guys had something deeper? Probably after that first semester and summer hit, and then we were separated by summer because of school, and we decided to continue the studying, and I started going to their house. And then when I got a little older and I was able to drive, that was even more of a bond, because then I could drive them everywhere. I was the first one to get my license, even though LaToya was much older than me. Neither one of them drove. And we went to their house and swam, played badminton, went to the rolling rink, the movies. We really just had a blast. We were regular teenage kids and being devout Jehovah's Witnesses. But because we were together doing it, we sort of created our own world.

Describe, if you would, because this was very telling, his room. when you first saw it. The thing that struck me the most was the bookshelf, because I also had a bookshelf like that at home. And I considered myself a big reader, and I did not realize what a reader he was. But he just had books falling off the bookshelves. Besides the books, he had posters of animals

and different nature organizations that he had given money to, and that was what his focus was. But he had all these, he was like Disney obsessed. Tons of Disney toys. He was really obsessed with Disney. Yes, not what you would consider the room of a 16-year-old. So it's like he wanted to have that joyful, innocent youth. Yes.

Did his family recognize this about him? They were all very protective of him. They really realized his shyness and his sweetness made him vulnerable. So I felt like Latoya was a protective big sister. They were really close. And also the sweetness with their mother. I did not have that kind of relationship with my mother, but the way that they talked to each other, it almost seemed pretend. That's how sweet it was.

It's so interesting because your hormones are now coming online. Oh, yes. The book has a lot of my ruminations of guilt of having feelings for this boy and having desires and going to the movies and wanting to hold hands and instead our arms are touching. And I felt like God was watching and God knew my heart and I was here to mentor Michael Jackson as a Jehovah's Witness. And really, I had a crush that was much bigger than my desire to convert him. And I didn't know what to do with those feelings. Did you know the feelings were reciprocated? I suspected at times, but I could never really fully admit it to myself.

You know how that is unrequited love. If you admit it to yourself, then what? Then we have to do something about this. Right. Like that one scene when you come out of the kingdom hall and he's like... He's twirling around some kind of a pole. And each time he twirls closer to me, his face comes closer and closer. Like he's teasing me with an expected kiss.

And then his mom and his sister came out of the kingdom hall. But we had a lot of moments like that. And you never kissed? We never kissed. because we were not wanting to be led into temptation. We were just really adolescence. And there was nothing we could do with those feelings. We just had to squash them.

But I definitely allowed them to come out of my journals. My journals are filled with my effusive feelings and unadmitted love. I would love for our audience just to hear a couple of the journal entries, just to get a feeling. This one is at the beginning of the book. Michael J. and I have been spending quite a bit of time together. I adore Michael. I think I'm growing to love him, but not boyfriend-type love, just best-friend-type.

He feels the same about me, too, I can tell. His personality is one of the best I've ever known. So sweet. It is. I have a lot of compassion for that young girl. Okay, here's another. Michael is my best friend. As far as I'm concerned, I like him more than any other friend.

Michael is the one who opened my eyes about nature. He appreciates it so much. And today was my last study with Michael for a few weeks. He's going to Vegas. It was a great study. It was so juicy and full of good points. He came with me to the bus stop, and we talked for a while. He told me about this butterfly that lives for only one day,

and compared it with one day to Jehovah, is a thousand years to us. You know what's so crazy about this, Liz, is that here we were making plans for the future, because we discovered that both of us were obsessed with orphanages and orphans. And so we discovered that in our little eucalyptus hideaway, that we loved the idea of saving the children of the world. And I went on to become a clinical social worker and work in foster care. He went on to be one of the biggest philanthropists of children's charities in the world, even to this day. We were starting our very young ideas while we're thinking that Armageddon

is going to come and kill our families in five minutes. It's just ridiculous. I just want to read this one little part that stood out. Darles, if you could do one thing to change the world, what would it be? Michael was adept at asking meaningful questions. I'd open an orphanage, I replied without hesitation. Dee, that has always been my vision, he replied, full of excitement, to build an orphanage on a huge piece of land and use animals as a way to help the children heal. So he's always had this calling. And in a way, he did that with Neverland. Yeah.

And I know everybody has their own opinions on Neverland. But I also want to take it one step further is this innocence that you're describing almost feels like a longing for innocence because his childhood was... Perhaps. Stripped. Yes. Because he was famous as a kid. Neverland Ranch was Michael Jackson's private estate in Santa Barbara County,

except the word estate doesn't quite cover it. It was a full-blown fantasy world. Amusement park rides, a train, a zoo, all built around this idea of never growing up. Michael said it was meant for children, for joy, for escape, for the childhood he never had. It is also, however, where several people later accused him of sexually abusing them, allegations that, of course, were investigated, denied by Jackson, and ultimately never resulted in a conviction. And we'll be right back.

In the 1970s, there were about 2.5 million members in the Jehovah's Witness Church worldwide with about 600,000 in the U.S. now that number has since gone up. Today, there are about 9 million worldwide and over a million in the United States. Oh, that's a lot. That's too much. There's just too many. That's nine million people, Liz, around the world, that are told not to read books or go to college or educate. It's really sad.

Describe the people that were in your sphere of Jehovah's Witness. They seemed outgoing, enthusiastic, devoted, and kind of a young crowd. There was tons of socializing because that way it kept you from going to the outside world. So it seemed like a very cohesive, warm group. until things start to happen, like you're being monitored, or people are watching and then reporting you, those kinds of things. So you're really close and insular, but then again, you're being watched. So tell us when that happened.

That started happening, I think, when I was reporting my hours for studying with Michael, and the elders were really keeping an eye on me because I had his ear, and he was coming to the Kingdom Hall regularly, and I was asked a lot of questions about my Bible studies with him and about what we did, where we went, just lots and lots of questions. And I was confused because I felt like we were doing something we weren't supposed to be doing.

That was the feeling of the questions. And then, shortly after that, an elder approached me and said that I needed to talk to Michael about the length of his hair and that he needed to cut his hair. And I thought that was frightened. because Michael had managers and he was in show business and here I was, a girl, a year younger than him, being asked to go and tell him to cut his hair. So that was, I think that was the beginning of my realization that this wasn't all just fun and games.

Guys, you want to know if you're in a cult? If they're trying to control your hair, you're probably in a cult, okay? Yeah. Enough. We can bite model this shit all day long, but that alone is a sign. Something isn't right. Yeah, especially when you're trying to tame the fro of a rock star of MJ's huge do. Have you seen the pictures of him in 1975?

It's majestic. It is a great big afro. Keep it. Keep it. Michael always had his head in a sketchbook. He was sketching all the time. We exchanged letters when he traveled so we could continue our Bible studies and some of his letters had drawings on them. Can you share any of the exchanges between you two, maybe in your travels or...

Some of the letters? Okay. All right. So this was a letter that he wrote from, I believe he was at the MGM Hotel in Las Vegas. Dear Darles, I got your letter, but I got it a day late, and I have been busy. I have bad news for you. You can't write me back because the house I'm staying in doesn't have an address. I'm staying in a house on the lake.

If you send the letter to the hotel, I would never get it. Sorry, but I am reading the book, True Peace and Security that you gave to me. I have a big summer tour, but I will keep studying over. That means turn the page. P.S. Don't be led into temptation, which was something that we said repeatedly. And then there's a picture here that he drew. It's sort of a caricature of himself with long hair. Wow. His signature is the same.

It is. You know, Michael had a way of paying attention to me and to other. that made them feel really special. And I was the one who was in the role of mentor, but he was really my mentor. He really cared. He was so genuine and kind-hearted, and really, unlike other humans, is what I often said about him even then. He didn't come from the same place the rest of us came from. He wouldn't allow gossip. If Latoya and I started gossiping about somebody, he would stop it. He just had this pure soul. And I know that's hard for people to believe.

And I've even had comments in my book that he had to have some darkness. You know, how could you show him in such a bright light all the time? But that was my experience. I don't have one negative thing to say about him. You said, I found my soulmate in Michael Jackson, I thought. What does your heart say when you think about that today? It still feels that way, Liz. Isn't that crazy?

He shows up in my dreams on a regular basis. I feel as though Michael is a part of my psyche now, which is perhaps why I felt like I had to write this book, because I was able to see a side of Michael Jackson that was so human that I don't think has been shared. I don't know. Have you ever really seen this side of Michael Jackson, like you experienced in the book?

No, and I mean, there's things I surmised, just given everything that I know as a public, whatever I know from the outside. But this just really solidified so many things for me. And I've been thinking about it for days. And yeah, it just really shifted. So I had all of these thoughts that I wasn't supposed to be having about Michael Jackson, about my desires.

And you wrote, because I think this really encapsulates the harm, boy-girl attractions were much to immoral to even entertain privately, much less admit aloud. to even entertain my feelings felt like I was going to die a sinful death in Armageddon. It's interesting when I think back on what that young girl went through, because I see her as this innocent, inquisitive, curious girl really wanting to do the right thing. And I was terrified of getting in trouble and killed at Armageddon.

To walk around thinking that you are going to be murdered as punishment is pretty severe for a child who truly believes it. And so I just felt like a bad person all the time who was about to get punished for it. And questioned by these scary elders. They would make rules and have individuals watching you. So there was a lot of surveillance going on. There was this one incident, and this was right before my sister left the religion, and we went on a weekend away with another Jehovah's Witness family,

and the kids went shopping with the wives, and my sister had stayed behind. And when we came back to the boat, she was in a bikini drunk, and the guys, the husbands had fed her vodka. And she was flirting with them and she was dancing for them and they were laughing and enjoying it and they were drunk. It was just really what you might say, one of those moments where a young girl was being taken advantage of by older men. And when that happened, my sister was the one who was deemed the troublemaker instead of the men getting in trouble for what they had done. So that was one moment where I realized, uh-oh, this is dangerous. But what happened was my sister got disfellowshiped, and that means shunned excommunicated.

She became a playboy model. And I was brought in for questioning by the elders, and they really wanted me to report on her having. had sex outside of marriage. I did not have that information, but they continued to press me. And when I said I didn't know, they made an assumption that I was omitting it and disfellowshiped my sister anyway. And so I was told I couldn't speak to my own sister, and we shared a bedroom. So that was pretty crazy. I couldn't keep from speaking to her. So my loyalty to my sister remained, and I had to hide that from the church. And I also had to put up, with all of the disapproval that I felt and the disdain toward my sister, and that was really

awful. So that was sort of the first, maybe crack, where I started to be vulnerable to some more questioning or open to it. Then, 1975 came, and there was no Armageddon. And Michael was still in high school. I graduated high school at 15, and I turned 16 that summer, so I had to go to college. You go to college where? Cal State University, Northridge. Go Cal State University, Northridge. Matador's. Matadors.

Olai. So why did you go to college? Because I know Jehovah's Witness, do not. I had to go because I was living in my parents' home, and they would not have it any other way. And so I was a minor, so I had to go to college. And my plan was, I'll go to college until I'm old enough not to, and then I'll stop. When you went to college, he was,

on the road, touring, but you were still very much in touch. Very much in love. Yes. When I got to university and I had the relief of the freedom of a library where I could sit and read books and take in all that information, and I started being drawn towards religious studies classes and toward books in the library that talked about religion, and I got the sense of the history of religion, and I started questioning Jehovah's Witnesses, and I had legitimate questions based on the dogma. But the problem was, is that I had more and more questions, and my questions

continued to be answered with the same answer, and that is trust Jehovah. You're questioning Jehovah, you're not studying hard enough. There is something wrong with you. And so it was that process of my own inquiry, and it being shut down or dismissing. or me being shamed for having questions that really started my deprogramming. So in the midst of her questioning her own faith, there was something, or should I say someone, that helped further push Darles into more uncertainty. What about Elder Fleming? Okay. Whoa. Elder Fleming was not a good guy. He was really wanting to get close to Michael

Jackson. And so I was the conduit. So he gave me a lot of special attention because I was Michael Jackson's mentor. So Fleming invited Michael and I to dinner at his house one time, and it was like a double date with his wife. And he questioned Michael quite a bit about fame. I remember being very embarrassed by that, but I could just see he wanted to get next to Michael. Like he was really only nice to me to be closer to Michael. So when I was questioning the religion, ultimately, there was a point where he invited me to his home to go into his study and he said he would answer my questions and try and give me the answers that would help me. And what he really ended up doing was trying to seduce me. I was 17.

When I reported that to my Bible mentors, I was looked at as the one who had caused it. So it was all turned around, and it was my having done that to him. This is a common theme in cults in general, but also Jehovah's Witness does have much more child sexual abuse than people know about or realize. There's a rule in Jehovah's Witnesses that if you report sex abuse, it has to be witnessed by someone else or is discarded immediately. Now, what sex abuse happens in front of somebody else? It's always done behind closed doors. So that eliminates any reporting right away. It just seems like when people believe that God is on their side,

they can do all kinds of irrational things. And Darles admits she was not innocent in all of this that due to her indoctrination, she felt partially responsible for Michael's deep commitment to the Jehovah's Witnesses. What are they witnessing? Do they see something? I guess Jehovah. Just constantly witnessing. Are they witnessing Jehovah or are they Jehovah's witnesses?

I think they're like his spies. So they're looking out for him. That would make sense. How do you reconcile with your part in his indoctrination? That's a very good question. So I was frantic when I figured out it wasn't the truth. I wanted him to know. We've been lied to.

And my efforts in doing that were working. because he had a lot of trust in me. So I was able to get through to him. We spent hours on the phone, and I was telling him everything I learned and all of the discrepancies. And so then he was bringing them to the elders, and that didn't bode well for me

because they needed to get me away from him. I was hoping that he would leave, that both he and Latoya would see the light that I saw. So what did you say to them? I actually found a letter that I made a copy of, a 10-page letter that I wrote to Latoya at one point, really trying to get her to understand that if a child, let's say, in another country who never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, gets struck down in Armageddon, is that just? I mean, I was making all these arguments about children being murdered.

So I tried very hard. Did they hear you? No. No. In fact, they countered it with all. all the same stuff that I used to spout. What was your breaking point? After that incident with the elder, where he tried to seduce me,

I went and read the book that I wasn't supposed to read called I was a Watchtower slave. And that was a banned book because that book was written by one of the original founders of the Watchtower Society who had written so much of the literature. and he uncovered the corruption, the lies, the manipulation, and it was a tell-all book. And so that was it. I learned that I was in a cult. The rest of my deprogramming happened there. So what happened was I wrote a letter to the organization with my mother, which was a very

healing moment for us. And I asked them to pull my publisher's card. It's this little card once you're baptized, it says that you cannot have blood transatlantic. fusions and you carry it in your wallet. So I asked them to pull my publisher's card and that I respectfully wanted to separate myself and that I hadn't done anything unbecoming a Christian. And so I resigned thinking I could just quietly walk away. But because I wrote a letter saying, please don't get in touch with me, this is final. I've made my decision. They disfellowship me as a public shunning. Cut to I find out that I've been excommunicated.

And that means that Michael and Latoya can no longer speak to me. So that was the intention. So Darles had been disfellowshiped. She was 18 years old. Michael, however, he stayed. The meetups by the Eucalyptus tree were few and far between. No more stolen afternoons. No more longing for that kiss that every single listener here can relate to.

No more long talks of healing the world. Nice one. I don't understand. He'll the world. Make it a better place. I see. That's Michael Jackson musical reference. Because now she was an outcast. And no, we don't have Michael's side of this story, but we do know cults.

And we know that once you're out, everything changes. The people who are closest to you in the cult fade away without sometimes. even a goodbye. After I found out I was disfellowshiped, I was so broken-hearted because we didn't get a goodbye or anything. And then a few weeks later, Latoya called, and she said,

Mother and I have been talking, and we decided that if we're discreet, you and Michael and I can continue our friendship. We were friends after that, and we had clandestine meetings. But it didn't last because I lost interest in trying to convince them. And also, I went on

with my life, Michael went on to make a small song or two. Yeah, just a few songs that might have been heard by the rest of the world forever and ever. I mean, he went into the studio and created masterpieces, and so he became untouchable. An understatement. Michael Jackson wasn't known as the king of pop because he liked soda. Although he did indoors Pepsi. He had 10 solo albums that sold over 400 million copies. The album Thriller sold over 70 million copies alone.

He had 13 number one singles as a solo artist. Thriller had seven top 10 singles. By the way, that was every song on that album. It only had seven songs. It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. In the 80s, MJ was a demi-god. If Jesus were to have come back,

well, he would have had to rival Michael Jackson for the world's attention. Although I would say Jesus was probably pretty good at Moonwalk. That's my guess. He moonwalked on water. Do that, MJ. You got kicked out in what year? 1977. And he was in it till like 87.

I believe so. I didn't follow that closely. It was painful. I really became one of those people that just watched from afar, like the rest of the world. What was the last interaction in that time and space that was between you and my question?

The last interaction was one where I was in my 20s, and they redid their house. And I got a call from Latoya that she wanted me to come to the house and see their new digs, and that she and Michael really missed me. And so we made a plan, and I went to their home, and it indeed had transformed. It was a very big house before, and now it was this mansion. And somebody greeted me to come in, and I said, sat in the kitchen and I could feel Michael watching me. It was almost like there was this magical sense of him.

And I looked up and I could see a little, just like a little shadow of him around the corner. It was almost like a Disney movie. But anyway, I spent the afternoon with Latoya and we were in her room talking and she went to the intercom repeatedly say, Michael Darles is here. Where are you? And he didn't answer. After many attempts, he was on the other end, and he said, I saw Darles. Tell her I saw her in the kitchen.

Tell her I love her. Tell her she's beautiful. And tell her I cannot see her. And so then I was heartbroken, and Latoya and I started talking about what was going on. And she said, Fleming is his Bible study now. And then my heart sunk. And I knew the reason he couldn't see me or talk to me was because Fleming had told him. not to. And that's when I found out that Fleming really did get in there and take over,

got me out of the way. And Fleming also got excommunicated. Years later, he was excommunicated for conduct unbecoming a Christian, and it was a sexual misconduct. So you can only assume what was going on with Michael. Oh. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't know if he went for boys. I don't know. But he was definitely, he went for little girls. And that was it. And that was the last time that I had any contact. Now, I'm not a singer nor a songwriter, but I was a teenage boy once, and I can tell you, at some point, every dude thinks, you know, maybe I should write a song about this girl that I really, really like. We've all done it, Admit it, guys, admit it.

And admit it women, sometimes you've heard really bad songs from guys trying to woo you. Or good ones, or good ones. Michael, however, was just better at it than basically anyone else. I say basically because I think Lionel Ritchie was probably better at it. And Latoya told you later that he perhaps had been writing songs about you. She said, and I don't know if this is true, but she told me that when he, His voice broke up during the song, She's Out of My Life, but that was about my being out of his life.

Have you seen this music video? No. Can I show it to you? Yes. Okay. Should I show it this way? Should I come over there? You can just, I don't do this.

Okay. This song makes me cry every time. How could you not be in love with that? I mean, and that's not the only song. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, that's even true, Liz. I hope it's true. I don't know. I've never let myself fully believe it. This is from your book now. I've come to believe that in part his grief may have stemmed from the loss of our friendship. In his memoir, Moonwalk, he described that year as a loneliest year of his life, a loneliness that fueled his creativity. Quote, from his book,

there was one girl who was a good friend to me. I liked her, but I was too embarrassed to tell her. I believe that's referencing me. It sounds like it might be. Yes. He's of that age. where he's singing from that. Heartbreak. It stayed in me until I got it out in a book. And like every single listener on this show understands on a deep, guttural level, most of the time, young love.

Cult or no cult, mega superstar or not, it doesn't last. You grow up. You go in different directions. Your prefrontal cortex finally matures. We're still waiting on yours, right? Hoping. This week.

Hoping it kicks in. The doctor's. said any day now. So when you found a, you got a boyfriend in college? Backpacking through Europe. I met a guy from Sweden. And Michael was filming the Wiz. LaToya was with him in New York. And I had just gotten back from Europe and they called and they were both on the phone. Really excited to tell me all about New York and what was happening there. And then they said, we got you a plane ticket and we want you to come to New York and stay with us. And we could go out of to eat, we could do whatever we want, no one will see us, which is crazy. But anyway, I said

I have a boyfriend and I told them about this guy and Michael hung up the phone. And that was that. And you never went. I never went. I said I can't go. So you broke his heart. It was a sad moment. And he was still in the cult. They both were. Yeah. And when you got a boyfriend, how How did you deal with the deprogramming and everything you'd been told about love? Jehovah's Witnesses got married very young. When my boyfriend wanted to come to the United States and the only way for us to be together was for us to get married, I was open to that because I was used to teenagers getting married. So I got married at 18.

And Michael and Latoya and Catherine, their mother, were all invited to the wedding, of course. And at the last minute, they couldn't come. Were you in love with him? I thought I was. I was boy crazy, that's for sure, and very repressed. Where did you line up with your feelings towards Michael and this? That was difficult because the way I separated it in my mind was Michael was my true love that I could never have. And the religion was the obstacle. I did not feel he was ever going to come out of that religion. How long did that marriage last?

I got divorced when I was 25. And what about career-wise? I became a teacher. I actually went and taught at that same high school that Michael and I attended. And then I traveled the world for a while and spent years living in different countries. And then I decided that I needed to go back to school

to get my degree to become a mental health clinician. And went into social work and immediately carried out that mission that Michael and I had, to work with orphans by working in foster care. And I did that for several decades. And then moving into also becoming what you are today. I work in trauma recovery. So I'm an attachment-focused EMDR therapist, and EMDR is a trauma treatment.

And also I'm trained in internal family systems also a trauma intervention. And so both of those modalities work with beliefs that. are wired in and how those beliefs inform our view of ourselves. So this idea of I'm bad or where shame comes from and how that got started. And so I am in the business of poking around in people's early attachments and in their childhoods and how these beliefs got shaped. And so it really helped me see my own journey into occult religion and out of. And I realized how important this idea of mind control, adverse religious experiences, and religious trauma syndrome was becoming as far as a need to name it, a need to inform people.

I know for sure that the number one agent of change is awareness. And so my hope is to increase awareness around this topic. Well, you said in your book, after I was shunned, I experienced symptoms akin to PTSD. There was a lot of nightmares, which is very common for PTSD and self-doubt. lack of self-trust, unhealthy relationships. But the PTSD, that didn't just go away when the religion went away. That took quite some time. I still, even to this day, will have a nightmare or two about Jehovah's Witnesses.

So where are you at with religion in general? I have my own spiritual beliefs that give me strength and hope. Religion I don't look at it as a bad thing, but highly organized religions that people follow blindly are something that frightened me. And I see a lot of organizations on the landscape that are replicating this cult-like recruitment behavior based on fear, shame, and hate. Michael went on to have a huge career. Did you listen to the music? I did. I followed with curiosity, but there was always a heartbreak and a grief there that was in between me and watching him.

So I could never watch like the rest of the public could watch and determine his highs and his lows and this and that and make assessments and judge and believe all of what was in the news. I wasn't impacted by him that way. Like I didn't watch him and have judgmental opinions. I watched and thought the world was having their way with him. That's what I thought. Was that hard to watch?

That was. I can imagine. I don't think that anyone ever really forgets their first heartbreak. Yeah. Did you go on to fall in love again? I have, yes, I have love in my life. Good. Big love.

Good. Thank you, Liz. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and sharing my story. Yeah, you've been wonderful. I mean, I don't even know what to do with all that. How do you feel now, Tyler? I like the story.

very, very, very much. It's like you're listening to this incredibly sweet and almost painfully pure first love story. Yeah, and then your brain keeps going, yeah. Yeah, but that thing. Yeah, but what about that thing? Yeah, I can't ignore it. And you can't ignore that, and you shouldn't ignore that.

But it doesn't erase what Darrell's experienced. I mean, exactly. I mean, the version of Michael that she knew existed. and fucking cults, man. And cults, and cults, and cults do some really shitty things to people. Especially if people never mentally leave a cult. As we know, that can mess you up for your whole life. Because leaving the cult and deprogramming from the cult, two very different things.

Two very different things. But our guest today, thankfully, Darles not only deprogrammed, but she turned around and became a light for other people. who are trying to do the very same thing. And in fact, she has resources to help you if you think you might be in a cult. Or just dealing with trauma. I'm sure it's all helpful.

On the website for the book, I created a workbook for anybody who questions whether they're in a high control system or cult and how to start looking at that at unraveling it. And it's available. It's free on the, website and there's also lots of resources on there as well. Tell us the website.

It's Finding Truth with Michael.com. Hey, Rob, uh, perhaps you should get that workbook and see if editing this podcast for us is a cult. No time for that, Rob. He has to edit. Yes. If you're on the computer, you're editing our brilliance. Rob. No workbooking for you.

But if you are in a cult, have been in a cult, or even a shitty job or, or are relationship, you can get out, you can heal, and you can be a badass and go on to do something really powerful with your life, like Darles has. So thank you, Darls. Darls wrote a beautiful book about this experience, told from the point of view of that very innocent young girl, and I highly recommend it. I flew through it personally. It was humbling. It was sweet. It was touching. I don't know. It just... Kind of got you, huh? Kind of got me, yeah. It's like the sad story because you see the purity and then you see, you know the aftermath.

So you know the aftermath, but you also get to get a taste and a viewpoint into this place where it was still untouched, where it still wasn't damaged. She's pulling directly from her actual journal entries at the time. So it's really colorful. And I know you feel like you're inside her teenage brain, which is also a nice, powerful way to understand how, these cultic systems get inside of you and take hold? I wish I'd have journaled and continued to journal as a child. Right. I think we should.

It would be a nice thing to look back. Mm-hmm. The book is called Finding Truth with Michael, a memoir of friendship, faith, and first love, and it hits shelves on April 7th. But you can pre-order it today at finding truth with Michael.com. The link is in the holy show notes. And again, May will be our month back.

with all new episodes. Tia Levings will be joining us, bestselling author of a well-trained wife. She's going to talk about sex after cults and other things, but I don't think the other things matter once we talk about that, right? You open strong with the sex.

Let's just stay there. Sex and cults. She's fantastic. Who doesn't love sex and cults? We've got an incredible Amish story, a very powerful who, Hari Krishna story, and a lot more.

Until then, be safe. Where are you capron? If you listened to last week's episode, which we got a lot of people saying they wanted a capron. And we led them to a capron website, which is like a business. We have to make them. We have to make them. Maybe when I'm asleep, when I'm asleep, I can do it.

You do that. That's a goal for you. But we did get somebody who emailed us today and said, the capron is real. But it's for children. It's a capron for children. I don't want children capron. It is. I want an adult.

Adult capron. It's up to us, Tyler. You know what we said earlier? You can get out of a cult. You can heal and you can do something really powerful with your life. Like make a capron. And we have to do that. That's your power.

Now we have to do that. Yeah. We've already gotten out of cults. Check. Capron. Next. Haven't done that. We haven't done that.

Not yet. Caprin's. Editor's note. I've been sewing caperins for about a week. My hands are worn. Liz and Tyler won't buy me a sewing machine. I've been awake for 48 hours. They've been anticipating some sort of capron fad

that's going to sweep the country and they want to be prepped. I don't think it's going to happen. The quality is really going downhill on these caprons. Please just promise that if you buy one, know what went into the creation of the capron. But in the meantime, continue to help us spread the word with your superpower of voice. And memes. And OMGs.

And you got to listen to this. And holy shit. And whatever you do. Thank you. That's it. Was Anna Colt is brought to you by me. Liz, queen of not pop. No.

No. No. No, not the queen. A queen, but not. Not of music. And me, Tyler, still clenching. Still clenching just a little bit, me some. Sound Mixed design, edit everything.

Rob, the eucalyptus dream boy era. Back to your work, Rob. Rob, you met up with some girls at a eucalyptus tree when you were in your teenage years, didn't you? Editor's note. Editors note. Ding. I did. Editor's note.

I did, in fact. Only mine was an orange tree. Editor's note. Come on! Hi, I'm Julia Cowley, a retired FBI profiler and host of the True Crime podcast, The Consult, Real FBI Profilers. If you're fascinated with true crime and criminal profiling, then join us as we discuss real cases and examine the behavior exhibited before, during, and after the commission of the crime. You can listen to the consult wherever you get your podcasts. It's as close as it gets to be. being in the room with the FBI's behavioral analysis unit.

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