Was I In A Cult? - Mormonism w/David Archuleta—Pt2: "Dev-OUT"

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

In Part 1, David Archuleta was the church's golden boy - the voice, the fame, the perfect Mormon billboard. In Part 2, that billboard comes down.David goes on a two-year Mormon mission to Chile post fame, confronts the darkest chapter of his life, and finally faces the one thing he spent decades praying would go away. Tyler gets personal about his own loss. And David sings for us again. DAVID'S NEW MEMOIR DEVOUT  is now available. FOLLOW US For more culty content - follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacultFOLLOW DAVID@Davidarchie GET THE BOOK DEVOUT by David Archuleta - available everywhere books are sold. Audiobook includes a bonus EP of original songs. (Squeal!)SUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our Patreon! Get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and behind-the-scenes conversations. (And our forever gratitude)HAVE A CULTY STORY?Email us → [e-mail] you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988. The Trevor Project is available 24/7 at thetrevorproject.org/get-help or text START to 678-678.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. Welcome back, friends, comrades, compatriots, strangers. People in the abyss. Welcome. Robots. No. No robots? Stay away, robots. Do not listen to our show robots.

I, for one, welcome our robot overlords. This is Wasayana cult, and I'm Liz Ayakousy. And I'm Tyler Isam, and we have Rob with us today, who, as you know, he pipes in every once in a while on some of our shows. I'm still here, everybody. I didn't get fired. Don't worry. Nope. Long-time listener.

First-time caller. How has the cave been treating you, Rob? It's okay. I was staring at my shadow for a while, and that's really all the entertainment we have down there. Sorry, we forgot to bring you food. a couple days in a row. Yeah. Yeah. There's some bugs you can find on the floor. You're a resourceful young man. You'll be fine. There's some real juicy guys down there. Yeah. I was going full Timoan and Pumba. You look good though. You look good for a person who hasn't seen the sun in six weeks. You really do.

You really look. You know, bug protein is the hot new thing. Back to your cave, Rob. All right, bye. All right, everyone. This is part two of our interview with David Archeletta. For the record, part one comes first, part two, part two, and then part one, part two. He's here all day, everyone. I'm filled with these numerical facts. To let you know. Now, if you haven't listened to Part One, obviously, I mean, go back because David, well, he's saying. He sang.

He's saying for me. He kind of did think for you, Liz. But we let other people listen. Got to say, Tyler, it's not the first time of man singing for me. Is that what it takes? Is that the way to a woman's heart? I did have a man write a song for me, come to my house with his guitar in high school on my deck, play it, sing it. I drove him home. I gave him a kiss and I never saw him again. Oh, wow. That song, of course, has become number one.

Actually, his sister is a very famous Broadway singer now. Well, I, for one, look, lots of people can sing. love music, but I just, I am inspired when I hear someone who really has a singing voice, a real singing voice, not an auto-tuned voice, not someone who can fake it, because there's just, there's this beauty about being able to carry your amazing emotive instrument with you at all times that can make other people feel a certain way. I have just a warm spot for that. Thank you, Tyler. I appreciate that. I was, of course, talking about you, Liz, when I was saying that...

I have been told I sound like I carry a violin in my throat. Wherever I go. Yes. I've been told I look like I carry a violin in my pocket. Like, would you like to hear my violin? My vocal violin? I mean, you know who has violins in their music. Well, Kansas.

Kansas. All we are is dust in the way. I have to actually... Beautiful. How do you sing that song? You auto-tune that, Rob, for us. Oh, yours just in the way. Give me a real song to get, like.

What's that? What don't even a real song? Well, you choose. You're on stage. Oh, man. What's your favorite Michael Bubla song? Oh, God. Right, you just like saying Bubla.

And I'm feeling good. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I feel like I'm at the Grove. Stars in the sky You know how I feel Birds flying high You know how I feel Just so our listeners know

David Archiletta A very finely tuned vocalist Will sing later Someone who's a real artist So you can skip ahead See that little button on your iPhone Just press it. Just touch it.

You know, I have a pretty good idea as a music producer. I would just say cut the whole thing. I would say that would be my opinion. But people who can make and create music, again, I just have such a respect for them. And one of those is today's guests. See how I brought that back? Well done. Into actual content that people want to hear.

We do have a real thing. on, I don't know if you remember David Arjoletta is waiting in the wings. A much better singer. Ready to tell us the story. Ready to sing another song at the end. David Archeletta was an American Idol star, but is a man who has a certified angel voice, I will say. And he joined us last week to talk about growing up Mormon in Utah with a father who controlled every note.

He sang, every decision he made and every version of. of himself he was allowed to be. Until today. Until today. Well, not actually today, but in his story of today, because it happened before today, because he has written a book about it called Devout,

which is out now and available for purchase, and you guys should go do that because it is excellent. So if last week was the construction of the perfect Mormon boy, this week is the demolition, if you will. I love, who doesn't love a good remodel? I mean, I am. It's just, it feels so good, just bang! I think there's something about tearing things down and building them back up that makes us human.

Our guest did today. And wow, the remodel is stunning. Yes, it is a great story, beautiful ending. I am afraid I might get emotional at the end, so be prepared for that. Well, you aren't emotionally available. well-adjusted male, who is okay to feel his feelings and is encouraged to. It is good suppression of feeling bad. Feeling of feeling good.

Thank you, Liz. So we're going to pick up where we left off. David, in the last episode, had made it to the final round of American Idol. And it was down to just him and one other contestant. The winner by 12 million votes of American Idol. of American Idol 2008 is

David Cook After that it just didn't stop that same night that American Idol ended I was signed to Sony for a record deal

they had us going on the American Idol tour it was my first time going on tour ever and it was an arena tour I feel like everywhere we've played it was full

and it was such a big thing to hear tens of thousands of people scream every night and hear how loud they were. And while I was on the American Idol tour, I was also getting my first album ready with Crush, and it was my self-titled debut album. I started doing radio shows, traveling and performing with all these other artists that were huge. And I'm there in between, like, Kanye West and Chris Brown, or like right before Katie Perry goes on or right after Lady Gaga or Bruno Mars, Bruce Springsteen, when we played at Madison Square Garden, came to my dressing room and wanted to introduce his daughter and her friends to me.

And they wanted a picture. I was just kind of like, what is going on? Like, I still didn't know if I really wanted to be the star, but I didn't have time to make up my mind about it. You know, it's, I felt like an imposter. I was like, how the hell? How the heck, you know, as I probably thought back then. How the heck? How the heck did I get here?

I mean, I didn't swear then. I didn't swear. I did not say my first wearerun until I was 27. No shit. Yeah. And now I swear all the fucking time, you know, but it's just. Fuck, yeah, you do. But God.

And I felt so unworthy. Like, it was just, it was ingrained in my head. I'm like, I do not deserve to be here. But I tried my best because I'm like, God must want me here. I was also 17 years old when all of this was taking place. And I would say I was very childlike. And I think that had to do some. with the way you're treated.

When your parent doesn't want you to grow up, you kind of revert back to being a child. And you act like a dumb, innocent kid who doesn't know any better. I need my parent to tell me what to do. And that's very much how I was as a 17-year-old. So you come back to Utah after American Idol, and you're a superstar. I go back and, yeah, I became a celebrity.

Archeletta made a trip back home to Utah. I could not go anywhere. in Utah. I couldn't even go to my own home. People would show up all the time to our house. People would just walk in and they would take our grass as a souvenir and it was like a weird thing. That's when everyone started getting involved in my business because Utah's like in the church makes it where it's like a small town feel. Even though it's a bigger city, over a million people in the Salt Lake area, everyone knows each other through the church. I can vouch for that. Salt Lake is an interesting place. It's actually a pretty progressive city in a very conservative state.

Big gay community, big art scene, decent dining. But less we forget, it is still the headquarters of the Mormon church. And Mormons, like many cults, love to claim a celebrity. It validates them and makes the whole thing feel more legitimate. And David, well, David was the ultimate get. It was a walking, singing, adorable billboard for Mormon values. I hear that the church leaders want to meet with me. And I do.

I meet with the Prophet. I meet with the Apostles. And the Prophet's the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints. You know, the way that Jesus had apostles. The Prophet is the mouthpiece for Jesus. I'm like, dude, they can see anything. So they must see what's wrong with me. And I was just like so terrified to be around them.

But I also felt like it was my duty because I'm a follower of the church. And they were just like, we're really proud of you. And they would always say, you're a great asset to the church. That was something that was said many times to me. And so I was just like, maybe this is my way of serving God, being a vessel that God can use to spread his gospel and, you know, his light to the world. Maybe there will be some mercy that will be shown to me if I'm willing to do that, you know? you become at some point even more devout, right? I would say it happened around the age of 19.

So you decide to dedicate two years of your life to a Mormon mission? I served my mission in Chile from 2012 to 2014, which was a big deal because I was known by everyone at that point. I would just come off of American Idol, so to leave was a big deal. To leave my career to be a Mormon missionary. Okay. Raised a Mormon, especially as a male, and especially in Utah, the pressure to serve a two-year Mormon mission is very strong. And how do you know this, Tyler?

I know this because I, too, was pressured and I succumbed. I served a two-year Mormon mission to Kansas. You did that on purpose. You had to Kansas, and then you went so you could do a call back to, we're not doing it. We're not talking about the band again. I literally went to a Kansas mission just so that I could use that joke. Tyler's own mission story. If you missed it, is covered back in March of 2024.

And it's obviously where Kansas drew inspiration for their hits on. Point of No Return was Tyler's mission to Kansas. Kansas. So if Kansas is from Kansas, then Liz, where is the who from? Nope. Not going to play, huh? Okay, fine. Right, so when David finally decided to go on a Mormon mission, he announced it publicly on

stage following a Salt Lake City concert. That I've chosen to serve a full-time mission. It's not because someone told me that I'm supposed to do it, not because that I don't, that I no longer want to do music anymore, but it's because it's the feeling that I felt that I need to do next in my life. And I kind of looked at it as I owed God. I'm like, American Idol. I'm like, that was God.

not me, is how I looked at it. Let's go briefly into the Mormon mission. For those who don't know. A Mormon mission is where you dedicate two years of your life if you're a guy or 18 months, if you're a gal. But I went to the missionary training center in Provo, Utah, not too far from Pleasant Grove, where you grew up. I went to the MTC as well.

There you go. Yeah. And it's, I mean, like. It's an odd place. It's definitely a place where they. try and seclude you from the world prior to sending you back out. And it was a little odd for me because I was a celebrity there too. Like for me, I was like, I was there to be equal with everybody because we're all children

of God and we all have the same purpose. You're studying Spanish. You're learning. And you would learn how to teach people the gospel and how to get them to join the church and how to baptize them and how to get them to make commitments at the time. I just thought, this is God's work. Wow, it's amazing to be a part of it. Tell me just a brief bit about what the mission was like.

I really enjoyed my mission. But for me, I was like, this is the most important thing I can do. What I love about the mission is that we get to focus on serving people every day. Now, the Mormon Church was so proud of young David that they created an entire documentary about him while he was on his mission. It is entitled, called to serve. And David is absolutely adorable in it. He's got his little white shirt and tie, and he's singing for the Chileans like a little Mormon Disney prince. And really in the mission, nothing's about you.

A typical day in the mission, we get up, do studies, go out, and see how we can help people. I genuinely believed that I was there to serve God, and it was such a shift for me after being on American Idol. And having my solar career as a singer for the following years, it gave me a break from that, but I feel like more importantly, it gave me a break from my dad because my dad was just so obsessed with me and fixated. And I was trying to not let him work with me and try to grow up and be my own person, but my dad was so upset about it all the time and so mad and insisting that he needed to be in my life and had to be involved with all the decisions in my life. So to go on my mission, it pissed him off because I was going to be a

away from him. He said I was abandoning my family. I was betraying them, that I was so self-righteous to think that I was worthy to go on a mission. Looking back, a lot of my unworthy feelings did come from my dad, because he would tell me that a lot. And as I was getting ready to go, he was like, of all people, you think that you're worthy of going on a mission? Like, it's laughable. But once I was there, I finally had something else to follow other than my dad, which was that the mission rules. You know, I was so devout to it. I was so devoted and it was everything for me. The biggest things that I've learned are the simple things. For example, working through the problems talking, not holding things back, not holding back what's in your mind or not being

afraid to stand up for what's right. But I also feel like a lot of that stemmed from that secret that I always had inside me that I was queer. And so I thought if I didn't have God, with me, it was going to overcome me and overtake me and pull me down to hell. Okay, I've got an ad for you, ladies. So, Tyler, you can just sit this one out. I will be just sitting watching from a distance, judging, but watching from a distance. This is also for men you can listen to. But ladies, I've reached a phase of my life where I don't want trendy, you know, fast fashion anymore. I just want elevated essentials that are quality. And that is why I am into Quince.

You guys know we love Quince on the show. Tyler can't even keep his mouth shut on the sidelines, right? I told you I would let you speak, so I'm... Yeah, but you can't hold back. I love Quince. I just bought stuff on Quince this week. I got a nice package from Quince. Yes, I like Quince.

I went through all my old loungeware, gave it away or donated it, and I just replenished with some Quince sweatshirts, some Quince sweatshirts. Oh. Mm-hmm. Perfect. Mm-hmm. Guys, 100% cotton sweaters, luxury, cashmere, premium denim with stretch. You feel like you're in sweatpants? Come on. Come on.

I mean, the reason for the stretch is because when you eat a big meal, you need the waist to stretch. I thought you were just quietly. I am. I'm on the bench. I'm still on the bench, but I can cheer. Quince's quality is genuinely impressive. I can attest to this firsthand. The stitching, the fit, fabrics, everything is quality. They take it all into account. and how are they able to do this? They cut out the middleman. They use, you know, fantastic people that do this thing professionally.

All the good people. Everyone that's good is it quince. And so they can make it affordable, but quality, which come on, come on. Come on. Tyler, go, hit the shower. I have done a lousy job, not speaking. So if you are listening and you too would like to refresh your wardrobe with pieces you'll actually wear, go to quince.com slash cult. You'll get free shipping on your order.

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Did you? Or did you actually listen? Because there will be a quiz at the end. Okay, so Mormon-M-M-M-M-A. of which David is on. They're strange. They're very strange. And I know I was on one.

For two years, you can't be alone. You can't date. You can't read books. You can't listen to music. You can't call home. You can't watch movies. You can't use the internet. You can't.

Have any fun ever. You try and figure out how to get a little creative with your fun. I mean, look, you just, you're a kid and you're stuck with other kids. And you're out in the middle of nowhere like I was in Kansas. So you do silly things. Like, you know, you'd ride your bike places. That's the dish. You dumb, you know, you'd go places.

No, you didn't do much. It was kind of boring. But we did get creative. I mean, we'd found ways I wasn't an obedient missionary. I read books. You weren't allowed to write a bike? No, I wrote a bike all over. Hell, I wrote thousands of miles on my mission.

Of course. That's how we got around. We didn't have a car. But, you know, I wasn't a great missionary. David was ardent. He was like a real missionary. He did not bend the rules at all. I read books. What's the best thing you did? I snuck music. I kissed a girl. Oh, there it is. No, I kissed a girl in Kansas. That sounds like a Broadway play. That sounds like... I kissed a girl in Salina, Kansas. I kissed a girl in Salina, Kansas.

Auto-tune that, Rob. I kissed a girl in Kansas. I kissed a girl in Salina, Kansas. It is a difficult and interesting time to spend your years of 19 through 21. Oh, it's hard. Yeah. But here's the thing. Here's the thing about being on a mission is that you're with one person, right? You're with a companion.

And they switch around throughout your mission. But you're with another missionary. And you don't choose him. The leaders choose him. So you're basically stuck with one person. It's like a missionary arranged. platonic marriage. And you're together 24 hours a day.

You eat together, you walk together, you ride bikes together, you knock on doors together. And just you and some dude from, you know, I don't know, Richmond, Virginia. And the only time you're alone is when you're in the bathroom. And like if you don't like the guy, you don't get on with him, you just have to like talk about. You kind of live with it. Yeah. You just talk about verses. It's like, oh, what did you think about Ephesian 70?

I mean, you know, guys are easy when you're 20-year-old guys. I, you can just get along, it's no big deal. He's like, yeah, but it, huh, yeah. That's what it's like, yes. Was your companion bad too, or was he very? There were strict ones I had, and there were also ones that I was able to, you know, manipulate a bit and get them to do things that, like, go to the movies or a baseball game or, you know, listen to music with me, stuff like that.

Terrible things. So, yeah, I was, I was a persuasive mission. missionary, but I did my work. I did my work. So for David, imagine all of that, but also thinking that the dude that you're stuck with from Richmond was, I don't know, hot, and then shaming yourself for having that thought. What was it like being gay on your mission? It was very rough, having to be closeted and be only around other young guys your age. You know, there's at the prime of their life, you know, physically. And there are a lot of good looking missionaries here.

And I didn't say that thought out loud. I think it's just like, comes in passing. And you're just like, oh, shoot. Why is that thought coming? Like, why am I feeling this way? And you're just, and you're like, I can bridle my passions. So I just did my best to ignore it. And it got to a point where I just couldn't anymore.

I mean, my realization that I had for myself was, there's something wrong with me. and I can't fix it and I need help outside of myself because I'm not going to be able to change myself and I decided to meet with my mission leader and confess to him that I had feelings for guys and he was really cool about it but he didn't want to talk any more about it either he's just like elder archeletta you're great and you're doing a great job you're a great missionary and just keep it up And I was like, is there any advice you have for me to fix this? Like, what do I do?

But he was just like, you know what? You're fine. Just keep doing what you're doing. And so I kind of took it as, oh, I've confessed. So now, through my faith, now God will be able to heal me and fix me and make me whole. I said in my confession to him that I think I may be gay. But I hadn't acted on it. I didn't watch porn.

I had not seen gay media. other than some music videos that happen to have it, that was my one thing. And I felt guilty for that. Okay, because the church's stance on homosexuality is it's okay as long as you don't act on it. Yeah, the church's stance, even today, is it's okay to be gay. Just don't act on it. Don't try and marry someone of the same sex. Don't have gay sex.

But what was confusing to me is, okay, but we're also taught how the great, The greatest joy you can have is have marriage and start a family. So how am I supposed to be happy if that's what's going to bring me the greatest joy? You know, and the solution was always, well, marry a girl. You can always make it work because what matters is that you're obedient and you love God. And if you love God enough, you'll love your spouse enough to make it work. Is what I was taught. I'm not afraid to show people who I am, and I'm not afraid of what I believe.

I'm not afraid for people to know that. briefly talk about being on your mission and getting that horrible email from your father. So when my dad knew that I was coming home, he sent me this really long email. And so I printed out the letter and it was several pages long. It had been two years where we had a break from each other, essentially. And he started saying everything that he used to say to me before my mission, where I was like, get off your high horse, holier than now, you self-righteous. you think that you're worthy to be on a mission and after everything you've done to me,

the way you've treated me, your own father, I still have a divine right and stewardship over you, and I have a right to receive divine inspiration and revelation for you. And basically, Tommy, you know, I was too stupid to live my life, to make decisions on my own, and I needed him in my life. It really triggered me. It was kind of like he said, all the trigger words he needed to activate me. And I fell back into this childlike state. And when my dad triggered me and activated this like, I'm nothing mentality I had,

my companion was just like, which way are we going, left or right? I was like, I can't make decisions. I'm too stupid. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't even talk. I was so scared to say anything wrong. Again, we're not calling David's father a cult leader. No, no, we haven't said that.

We haven't said that. But if your prophet said, I still have a divine right and stewardship over you, and I have a right to receive divine inspiration and revelation for you. What would you call that? It wasn't until my mission leader brought me in and said, what's going on with you? Why are you acting this way?

I gave him the letter from my dad. It was still in my backpack and I said, I don't know how to explain it to you, but maybe if you read this, you'll understand. And he brought me back in like a day or two later and said, so I read those letters. And he's like, wow, he's like, your dad is, your dad is abusing you. And I was in denial because I was like, what?

I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, my dad's never hit me. and my mission leader, he said, there's physical abuse and then there's mental, emotional, verbal abuse. Your dad is mentally and emotionally and verbally abusing you. And I didn't believe him. It's like that thing, like when you're a devout member of your faith and someone says something that questions the validity of it, you just go into a mode where it's like, no, like that's not true. Like, you don't understand.

And I was defending my dad. and it took him about 45 minutes of talking through things with me to help me realize. And I started recollecting things that had happened that I'd like wiped out of my head. When it hit me, I was like, oh my God, my dad has been abusing me. My mission leader said, I would recommend to you that you cut your dad out of your life. And I was like, what? I was like, do you understand what you're asking? There's no way I could do that.

my mission leader recommended to me saying, tell your dad, unless you're willing to treat me like a son, I will not have a relationship with you. And that was a lot to swallow, but I knew deep down like he was right. Now it's important to say, leaders in the Mormon church are lay people. They're not paid professionals.

They're not trained to handle confessions or trauma or deep personal struggles. They aren't trained therapists, but they often are treated. As such, couples will go to bishops for marriage counseling. Teenagers confess sexual thoughts. Adults unload shame and fear. And myself, speaking personally, I've sat across a bishop's desk.

I've been vulnerable. I've shared real struggles. And the response was to simply read your scriptures and pray. So frustrating. That's one of the main reasons I left. That was the last time I was in a Mormon church just when I poured my heart out to a Mormon bishop who said, well, you should read your scriptures and pray, and I walked out of the church. And I never went back.

Really? That was the last time. That's amazing. I just felt like I was really trying to get in touch with somebody. And then I literally realized that guy's a dentist. Like, why am I telling this? Because he was. He was a dentist who happened to be a bishop.

And he was only a bishop for like a month or something. I was like, that's what you want. I think it's all covered in my episode. It was actually. I remember. Right. So it's a rerun. But David got lucky.

His mission leader didn't minimize it, didn't spiritualize it, didn't deny and deflect the blame back to David. He didn't gloss over it to protect the image of the, quote, church. He actually named it, quantified it, and stood for what is right. Sometimes the most important thing a person in authority can do is to simply name what's happening. Imagine if more people in places of power did that. And when I got back from my mission, just a few weeks later, you know, my dad didn't come to the airport, which I was relieved about. And so I called him and I said, Dad, I want to let you know, I read your letter and I try to let him know how I felt. I'm like, this is my side of things. And it's been like hell for me the last few years.

And he immediately cut me off and he's like, I don't agree with you. And I was like, hold on, let me finish my thought. I'm not done yet. You know, I want you to hear my side. And he just kept talking over me. and he was just like, no, see, this is why we have to talk and discuss things. And this is why you don't understand. And this is why we need to talk in person because you don't get it. It's when I realized how all the other conversations had gone the years before. Like he did not want to hear that I had a different opinion from him.

And I was like, no, I'm going to try and get out what I think. And he wouldn't let me. I started shouting at him. I was like yelling. I think he knew. He's like, I just keep talking. and it'll wear him down and it'll eventually bow back down to me. And I just yelled down and I was like, Dad, just listen to me.

And I was like, Dad, I love you, but I'm hanging up. I will not have a relationship with you. I'm blocking your number now. Bye. And I just like broke down in tears because I was just like, it hurts me that my dad does not care how I feel or what I think. And I think also I was just processing in my mind. I've been dealing with that for years and did not even realize.

The severity of the situation, that was abuse. And that was the first time I was able to look at it happen. And I think I was just like, I gave my life so willingly away to that is how I was feeling at the time. Not to say that there weren't a lot of good things that happened during those years, but it was just, I guess I'm seeing my dad for what he really is as abusive and manipulative and controlling. Now, we're not saying David left a cult when he shot his. father down. No, we didn't say that. I didn't say that. I didn't hear you say that. But what we are saying is, hell yeah, David. The courage that must have taken when your own father claims divine authority over your life to finally say, no, no, no, thank you. You do not get

to control me anymore. That, that is the real miracle. Hallelujah. We'll be right back. This episode just makes me want to sing about food. Easy there, Pavarotti. I love food. I love thinking about food. I love cooking it. I love ordering it. I love judging other people's food decisions.

You know, that one's a bit aggressive. It's warranted. It's warranted most of the time. Most of the time. Here's the thing, though, loving food and having time for good food, two very different realities. I know. I think I'm going to be making a rustic Tuscan chicken tonight. But in reality, I just ended up staring into my fridge, blankly, at the sauces that I should have thrown away three weeks ago.

But maybe I will use one day. And here comes the pitch, ladies and gentlemen. Now I use Marley Spoon, and I actually do use Marley Spoon. You guys should try it. It meets you wherever you are. If you're an ambitious chef, it's got you. If you're just a tired human, it will get you too. Yeah, Marley Spoon's got ready to cook.

They've got ready to heat. and ready to eat meals, plus snacks. Snacks. We love snacks. Who doesn't like a snack? Everybody on this show loves snacks. And the recipes, chef designed, they're good ingredients, they're balanced, so you're not ending the night with food regret, which is real.

It's real. Very real. Very real. And I love that they're healthy. I find myself eating healthier, but they're also delicious, which those two things don't always mesh when I'm behind the wheel of the kitchen. Yeah. I made the, I don't know what it's called, sorry guys, it's like a pesto veggie soup that I normally would never have chosen.

Delicious and nutritious. It's also, I feel like it's a week's worth of food and I'm spending, I don't know what maybe one night of takeout would cost, right? Yeah, yeah, it's surprisingly affordable. So now you have time. To sing, to do other things like sing. Oh, no, no. So I'm going to go warm up my salmon and my vocal cords. Very nice.

Very nice, Liz. Okay, good. Food, food, food, food, food, food, food. Go to marleyspoon.com's forward slash offer, forward slash cult, for up to 25 free meals. That's more than Liz eats in a day. Again, marleyspoon.com forward slash offer, forward slash cult, up to 25 free free freaking meals.

And don't forget the slash offer. It comes before the slash call. Can we get back to Art Gilletta and his singing? That was tasty. For David, standing up to Dad was the first step. But now he has all his deep-rooted Mormon conditioning to confront. When I came back from my mission, I was living in Nashville. I moved there in 2015.

I was going back into music and singing, and I was a very obedient person. I didn't eat out on Sundays. I didn't watch anything that wasn't church-related. I read my scriptures every day. I was going to the temple every day. And most Mormons go once a month if they're devout. I was going every day because I was like, my life must belong to God.

And I have to do everything to dedicate my life to him. So it was quite obsessive. I wanted to go to therapy because I'm like, I need help. Because I need to make marriage happen. but I didn't trust outside sources of the church, just trust church sources. And we would learn things like psychology can be very worldly because they do not understand God's plan. So make sure that you proceed with therapy or science with caution because we have all the truth in our gospel. Take everything with a grain of salt. See if it benefits you because Mormons do want to learn.

They're very educated. But it's like you're able to be educated while also having like a filter in your head where it's like do not take anything in that will contradict our church's beliefs. I didn't listen to normal radio for several years. I listened to the Mormon channel. And they were talking to a therapist. And this was a Mormon therapist who was on the Mormon channel. So I was like, I can trust them. I was like, oh my gosh, I would love to speak to this person.

And so I did. And as we started talking, and they're like, I think you struggle with scrupulosity. Now, I must say in all of my years of work in the field of cults and religion, and in all of my love of obscure vocabulary, I had never heard the term scrupulosity until I read David's book. Liz, were you familiar with the term? No, I had no idea. There was even a specific word for what it is, but it makes complete sense in something I'm sure many of our guests have grappled. with. And now they can put a word on it. Scrupulosity. This is basically religious OCD. It's when the fear of

being unright with God basically becomes all-consuming. You develop a deep pathological guilt and anxiety around sin, around mortality, around whether you're clean enough, good enough, worthy enough. You become obsessed with being sin-free, morally perfect, spiritually spotless. And this obsession, well, it starts to drive behavior to relieve that anxiety. You confess. You pray, you repent, you confess, you pray, you repent. You seek assurances over and over and over and over. But of course, like all OCD, that relief is short-lived, maybe a minute, maybe an hour. And then, of course, the doubt creeps back in.

What if that wasn't sincere? What if I didn't feel guilty enough? What if God knows something I don't? So then you start over and you pray more and you confess more. And again, and again and again, and it's never enough. The word scrupulosity comes from the Latin scrupulous, which means a small, sharp stone. Sort of like a rock in your shoe, like a tiny pebble. You can't ignore.

Every step you take hurts. Every step is a reminder that that damn pebble is always there. But for David, the pebble had been there for so long that, well, he thought that it was just part of the shoe. So I was like, what's the matter if I'm like this with my religion? She was trying to help me to defy being obsessed with my religion. So I was just like, okay, whatever. But looking back, I was definitely scrupulous. And that's when I started trying to follow the guidance I was given,

which was if you struggle with same-sex attraction, get married, God will bless you, you can still live a happy full life, and you won't even feel the burden on your back of being attracted to the same sex. And so I did that. I found some really amazing girls, members of the church, but the cycle was basically, oh, even though I found someone that I like, it's not getting rid of my feelings for guys. I'm still attracted to men.

And trying to push it down intensifies it. Like I was trying to push it down, turn it off like a light switch, how they say in the book of Mormon musical. Turn it off. Like a light switch, just go flick. It's our nifty little morning trick Turn it off And you try to just act like it's not there But you're not being honest with yourself

And it's still there Being gay is bad but lying is worse So just realize you have a curable curse And turn it all Turn it off And I was so frustrated with myself Because I was like, okay, I just didn't find the right girl So I need to find another girl

Oh, she didn't work out She's not helping me overcome these feelings I just need to find the right girl. And the third time I just realized this is not her problem. This is my issue. And I have to be honest with myself. And I was terrified of having to come to terms with myself. And I was just like, what else can I do?

Because I cannot accept sin. I can't accept myself. I've fought so long in my life to not get to this point. And here I am. And I was feeling really defeated. I was feeling really hopeless. And I was like, I do not want this to be who I am. And so that's when I started thinking that thought, this is who I am attached to. I will never be acceptable to God if this is who I am. And I'm having to accept that. I can't be anything else, even though I'm trying everything I can to not be gay, to not be gay, to not be. queer. And I thought of coming out was trading my birth right away for a bowl of porridge like Esau in the Bible. And I just kept thinking about Esau. I was like, I don't want to be Esau. I don't want to be him. I don't want to trade everything I have waiting for me after this life for the eternities and the celestial kingdom for a bowl of porridge. And I just thought, you know, letting myself be attracted to a man

and letting those feelings express themselves and be shown and connect with the guy, that was the porridge. And so I was just like, I'd rather die. I'd rather die. And like it got to a point where I was willing to end my life if it was something I couldn't change through my faith. You know, I would be doing the right thing because I would be laying down my life for God. And there are so many examples in scriptures of people doing that, I just thought, you know, that is the worthy, righteous and right thing to do if I want to show who I'm committed to,

which is to God. And I was convinced to do that for a while. And I felt numb. Like it got to a point where I just didn't feel any emotions. And so I was just like, you know, I think I'm ready to do it. after feeling numb for quite some time I just felt this feeling it's like the numbness was gone for a moment

and I was just like I felt something and I was like that's God there's God I'm like God didn't abandon me and I just got on my knees right there and I was like God if you are really there please just change me because I don't know what else to do and I just felt God say, you know, David, you got to stop asking me this. You got to stop asking me because as you see, you've been asking for over half your life and I'm not going to change anything because I don't see anything to change.

And I was like, I don't want to mess up. And I felt God say, well, perhaps you need to do what you think are mistakes. I give you permission to mess up. I give you permission to make mistakes. And what you think are mistakes. like what I think are mistakes. And I just felt this feeling of God say, like, I don't see you the same way you see you. I don't see you the same way a lot of well-meaning people who say they follow me see you. And it's time for you to finally get that. And so I was like, I know what the

mistakes are that I'm supposed to make, which is let myself take eyes see what it's like. And if I fall in love with a man, see what that is. See what it feels like. and a couple days later, I had a talk with my mom. I was like, Mom, I'm going to start dating guys. And she's like, honey, I love you, but I love God more. And I can't accept this about you. I testify to you. God's plan for you is a marriage between a man and a woman that is his only plan of happening.

And I was like, Mom, I get it. I believed all that up until a week ago, until I thought killing myself would be better. and she was not expecting to hear that I was like considering taking my life. But I said, Mom, I don't need you to accept what I'm doing. I just want you to respect that I'm making the best decision for me. And I want you to just learn alongside with me because this is new territory for me too. And she hesitantly said, okay. David, we are so glad you're here truly because not everyone makes it through this.

In Utah, suicide rates are among the highest in the nation. and suicide is one of the leading causes of death for young people, especially ages 10 to 24. And of those deaths, 45% of those young people were affiliated with, and here I will say the full name, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 45%. And LGBTQ youth are hit the hardest. Recent surveys found that 42% of queer and trans people in Utah

have seriously considered suicide in the past year. Those aren't statistics. Those are kids. Kids who were told that the thing they feel most deeply about themselves is the thing that is most wrong with them. Now, as someone who has a trans daughter living in Utah, a gay brother who grew up there, and a lot of people I love in that community,

this isn't abstract for me. This is personal, and it's a crisis. And if you happen to be listening right now and are struggling, and if you're feeling alone, please know there is help. You can call or text 988 at any time. It's confidential. And you are not alone. However, and this must be said that in July 2025, not too long ago, the Trump administration ended funding for the LGBTQ-specific support option within the 98-8 suicide and crime. crisis lifeline.

It was called Press 3, or Pride, and a connected queer and trans youth directly to counselors trained for their specific needs. That is gone now. You know, people have told us not to get political on this show, but protecting suicidal kids shouldn't be political. Also, Trump literally signed the bill in 2020 that created 9-88 in his first term. then he cut that part out that served queer kids. When you cut a suicide hotline for kids who are suffering,

that's not politics, that's pure evil. And whether you're conservative, liberal, religious, not religious, it shouldn't matter. I mean, when you do that, you kind of want something to happen, it feels like, right? I mean, that's... Right. It shouldn't matter because if you're a human being with empathy and compassion, we should all agree that fewer resources for struggling children,

well, it's not the direction we should be moving. And anyone listening, who's ever been told by someone in your family or inner circle, that who you are is the problem? Fuck that. They're wrong. Not you, them, they are the problem. Fortunately, the Trevor Project has stepped up where the government has not.

You can go to Trevor Project, or text start to 678-678. In their own words, you'll be connected to a counselor who is understanding of LGBTQ issues and won't judge you. It's free. It's confidential and it's available 24-7. I'll be right back. All right. So here's the thing. I actually used to love doing makeup. I was the friend in college who did everyone's makeup before we all went out. I was good at it, I enjoyed it, and then I had a kid, and I had no time for it anymore. Putting on mascara today feels like too much, which is why I love Jones Road beauty. It's sort of become one of my new favorite beauty lines. It's very minimal, but it's quick and easy. They're miracle balm. I put

on my cheeks, my lips, my eyelids. It's one product. Just use your fingers. It takes about 30 seconds, literally, you're done. And I just look like myself. but slightly more alive and awake, which is nice. It was created by Bobby Brown, the actual person, not just the brand, and everything in this line is clean, which I really appreciate. There's no cakiness, no heaviness. You're not standing in front of a mirror with 12 brushes. It just makes your skin look good without feeling like you're wearing anything.

And they also just launched a new shadow stick, which is the same philosophy as their miracle bomb. You just swipe it on, blend it with your fingers, and you're done. last all day. It has high pigment. It looks great. You don't need to do like a full head eye or smoky eye or whatever the heck you used to do. And this has done in about 10 seconds, guys.

Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic, multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free shimmer face oil on their first purchase when you use our code in a cult at checkout. Just hit to Jones Road Beauty.com and use code in a cult at. check out. After you purchase, they're going to ask you, where did you hear about us? So, please support our show and tell them, was I an occult sent you? Thanks, and back to the show. It may not be a mistake. And that's what God told me. Like, he said, I'm not a mistake. And I need to figure out how to accept that. Because it took me, like, the next year to accept that I wasn't a mistake. But I think it

really started unraveling when I was like, there's got to be someone else who's gone through what I have. And there were people like on their Mormons and Gay website that they had where people saying, I'm gay, but I still live a heterosexual life. And I know God's looking after me and he has a plan for me and I'm happy. And I was like, where are they? Like, I want to find them and see if there's a happy ending to this. And I couldn't find them.

And it wasn't until I started, I felt so rebellious and scandalous doing this, but I was looking at sources outside of the church, outside of the website. I was like, oh my God, I'm going into anti-Mormon territory. I'm not supposed to be here. But it was the only place where I felt seen. And I found the queer. But even people who had made videos on that Mormon and Gay.org website that the church had, they were on this telling their story how they're like, you know what, I can do it anymore. For the record, the website Mormon and Gay.org no longer exists. And so many of them have the same story where they tried to kill themselves.

And they realized, I deserve a chance at life even if it means I'm gay. And I saw how happy they were. But the church erased them. They only wanted their story that fit their narrative to exist. They didn't want to show that people could be happy without the gospel. And they didn't want to show that people could be happy. could be happy living a homosexual lifestyle when that is considered a sinful lifestyle. And it just made me realize, I'm like, oh my God, like they are there.

Like people have walked this path before me, but the church always tries to cover them up and not be heard. And that really upset me. And the church gave me some lenience that went against what I grew up being taught, where they said, you can date guys, but just don't leave the church. And I was just like, that's not fair. I almost was willing to give up my life and you're saying that it's okay for me to do it under the table

as long as I still look like a full on like full on obedient Mormon because the way it looks is more important than the truth and that was when things really just started crumbling down for me because I saw how that pattern was in other aspects of the church with its history with Joseph Smith with its history of polygamy with the way the money was handled

by Joseph Smith and banking, and I was just like, they've tried to always act like the problems weren't there. And I'm like, I'm seeing in real time how they're trying to now, where I was like their poster boy, they're now slowly trying to dissolve my image and pretend like I'm not even here because of the pain I'm trying to express of how hard it is to be a member of the church and be queer.

And how frustrating it is that the church is not willing to listen when you try to come up with a solution, just allow us to belong, but you do not want us here. I realized that to live a healthy, happy life, this wasn't my place anymore, and I just needed to leave, so I left. I've always believed it was true, and I don't think that anymore. Now, in his book, David details his many meetings with church leaders,

both before he came out and after. And after he came out in the meetings, he wasn't competitive. He didn't try to expose anyone. In fact, he was trying to stay in the church. He was trying to help them understand what it feels like to be gay and faithful at the same time, to make room, to perhaps build a bridge. He really wanted it to work. But after everything he had done for them,

the missions, the concerts, the interviews, the smiling, obedient star, propping up the Mormon ideology for the world to see, when he finally needed them to listen. They went silent. He was essentially ghosted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. David was called to serve, but they never called him back.

David Artiletta, from Mormon poster boy to gay icon. And quite the hard throb. May I add, have you seen how handsome he is these days? I have. We interviewed him And the cover on the book. The glow up. The glow up is real.

And do you have any religion at all? Currently, no. I consider myself agnostic at this point. And I don't want, like, it gives you structure. It gives you a sense of community, which is beautiful as well. But I feel like I don't need, I don't need a religion. And I don't want to have a religion that's going to close my mind again. And how are you feeling now? It's taken a few years to get over the guilt.

you feel for living your life past it. To swear and to pierce my ears and you know, not keep the Sabbath holy and to not say my prayers and to, you know, just I think more than anything, the sexual guilt is where the shame, I had to really work through that and it's taken time. It was hard to find my purpose after I left because it was my everything and I felt like terrified.

I didn't know my purpose. to live anymore because this had always been my purpose. So to have to just kind of disconnect myself from that and not think too much about it just so I could live day by day. I got there. It was slow and a little painful, but it was such a relief when I found I don't have to have my identity be all wrapped up in this belief that I no longer have. And I can make my own life, create my own purpose and and I can be happy. I was always told I would be miserable without this and I can be happy and I am. I'm happier and I don't hate myself anymore. That's like the biggest thing that I've taken away. I'm like I don't hate myself anymore. I didn't know this was possible. I didn't know you could

live your life like this. Of course, there are always challenges but I feel like I I enjoy life. Like, I have joy living my life in a way I never had before. David now lives in Los Angeles and is making up for lost time. He's going out. He's dancing. He's having a drink. And he's fucking swearing. He's had decades of wholesome repression to make up for.

And his mother now fully accepts him for all that he is. And she too has also left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Looks like the celestial kingdom just got a little bit more roomy. Ooh. I thought women didn't get up there, though. They didn't get all the way up with their own planet. No, they'd get all the way up, but they can't have their own planets. So only men can have planets.

They're sitting in the kingdom with not a planet in their hands. They're just sitting with a casserole. There's more women in the celestial kingdom because they're plural wives, Liz. Right, obviously. So, yeah, obviously. Come on, Liz. Hello. Something to look forward to.

And David's father. It went a few years of no contact. My dad tried to insert himself back in, and I just kept my boundaries. You know, it probably liked that for like eight to ten years. And in the last few years, like when I've seen him and stuff, like I've texted him, we bonded over things. And I was like, I can't believe this. We're talking about stuff that's not music. And we just had a Christmas breakfast.

with him Christmas morning and he like got emotional and cried in front of all of us saying like how grateful, how lucky he felt to be our dad. I'm not best friends with my dad and I still need my boundaries with him, but we can at least be kind to each other and friends and we don't have to fight and he doesn't have to try and control my life. Are you dating? I'm not really dating right now because the book brought up so much shit and baggage. I was like, I need to clear this up a little bit. Let me work through this and then I'll make some room for that again. What do you hope that the book does? I hope that it helps people feel seen.

I hope it helps them feel understood. And like they're a little less alone through whatever crap that they went through, whether it's family drama, whether it's religion and transitioning out of religion, or it's coming out and being queer. Whatever that may be for them, I just hope that they know, like, finding your authentic. self is worth it, even if it can feel really heavy at first to work through it all. And it's scary if it changes your identity and your purpose that you always attach to yourself to before. But it can be done. And it works and it is worth it. And to feel the difference is amazing. You're recording a new

album. You're going on tour. Well, I'm releasing some songs to go with the book, actually. So these are songs that I feel just wrap it all up and say, yep, this is the summary of what I want you to get out of this book. And I have those songs. It's devout the EP. You made me cry a lot. Oh, you. Aw. You moved me. Thank you. Do you want to sing a real quick acapella of one of your new songs? Oh, my God. I mean, I can sing a little bit. It's not out yet, but it will be once the book is out. It's called Old and Young, so I can sing a little bit of that. My voice doesn't warmed up right now, but I'm old and I'm young at the same time. I'm still finding out what it feels like to be falling in love finally feel good enough. Yeah, I'm starting to understand.

I'm human. There's a little bit of that. David, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you telling your story. Thank you, Tyler. Yeah, thank you so much for wanting me to share as much as you had to be shared. So thank you, Tyler. Thank you, Liz. Thanks so much, y'all. Fantastic.

Appreciate it. Pleasure. Have a great day. We'll see you. David, thank you. Thank you, David, for trusting us with your heart. Even the judges are pleased. Judges?

Judges? I thought you struggled a little bit at the end of it. No. A little bit. Little bit. But look, okay, in the grand scheme of things, I'm going to call that as the best performance so far. The book is called Devout, and it is available now.

The link is in the show notes. And guys, get the audiobook if you can, because again, it comes with a brand new EP of songs that David wrote, about the themes in the book, including the one that he just sang for us. Here's another little taste of that. David is on his book tour right now, so if you are in Austin, you can see him on the 23rd of this month. Salt Lake City on the 24th. Come on Salt Lake, get out for this man.

He needs you there. And on the 25th, he will be at the Grove in L.A. with Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons. Wasn't Dan? Is he an ex-Morman? Yeah. Ex-Mormon as well. He's an ex-Morman as well.

If you want to help support this show and hear these episodes add free, it very much helps us. Join us on Patreon. It helps the creators, us. It helps us to be able to make this show week after week. The link is in the show notes. We appreciate it. And thank you guys for listening here to both parts of David's inspiring story.

If it resonated for you at all, we would be very grateful if you shared this episode with your... friends and loved ones. A special thank you to Ken Phillips. He's David's publicist. He made this happen. And next week, we will be back with an orgasm cult that makes you go, ah, what? Like, that's how I orgasm.

What are you doing? What is? What's going on? Stimulating. Was A and a cult is? written, hosted, produced by me Liz, sad, beige, biblical oatmeal,

Ayakuzi. Just trading it for oatmeal. And me, Tyler, that porridge was that bitch, apparently me's them. I got him to say it, guys. He fought me hard.

He fought me hard. It's fine. I get it. I understand. Yeah, it's not part of my vernacular. It is not. It is not. But you know it is. is scrupulosity. Scrupulosity, I shall use much. Me too.

And sound mix and designed by the Rob Random dude from Richmond, Perra. Tyler's random roommate. Thank you, David. Thank you, everyone. See you next week. Thank you, guys.

Listen up, campers. It's time to buckle up, pitch a tent, and take a hike. This is Camp Counselor's podcast. With Zachariah Porter and Jonathan Carson. Consider this podcast your new favorite variety show. Where the badges mean nothing.

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