Was I In A Cult? - Multi-Level Manipulator (MLM): “Hey, Hun! Hey, Girl! Hey, sis!”

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Emily Lynn Paulson was a busy, ass-kicking mom to five children when she realized something was missing. Wanting to find a way to enter the workforce again, she met up with an old friend one night who introduced her to some products. Products her friend was selling. Products that Emily could sell too. She could work her own hours, be her own boss, and still spend all the time with her kids. It sounded perfect. And it was. Until… well, it wasn’t. -- Emily’s book, “Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing” was a book of the year pick by NPR for 2023. — LINKS Find Emily: Instagram @emilylynnpaulson Founder of @sobermomsquad Follow us: Instagram @wasiinacult Support Us: https://www.patreon.com/wasiinacult Have a story to share on our show? Email us: [e-mail]

I saw people before me who had left and go into other companies, and I think that's a really easy way people get sucked into other cults. Whether it's MLM or whatever, the MLM must have been the reason I felt good, and so I'm going to try a different one. If I could go back, I would work really hard to look for things that actually fill those needs. And I'm today. Welcome back to Was I an A Cult? I'm Liz I Accusi.

And I am Tyler Mesa. And on this show we highlight personal stories of those who have been through cults or cultic environments. And have come out on the other side straight, kick and ass. We are here recording in studio today at the gorgeous podcast one offices right here in Beverly Hills, California. And it is quite a nice studio. It has a pool table, an espresso machine and fresh flowers. And the smell of Ozemic is in the air. Now today's episode is quite a fun one. Yep, it's about a survivor of an MLM. Multi-level marketing companies are thankfully becoming recognized more and more as cults.

Companies like New Skin, Young Living, Rodanin and Fields, Beach Body and Pampered Chef. Hampered Chef is an Mlm. I had no idea. We previously had a guest on our show, Roberta Blevins, who was in an MLM called Lula Rowe. You guys should listen to that because we both get a pair of sexy-ass pants. We sure do an update on my Lula Ro leggings. I took them home. My wife loves wearing them. However, they are still hideously ugly, so she only wears them in the dark.

And they still smell like farts. So we here on Was I in a Cult, we hate MLMs. Hate them. Hate them. So we wanted to do something to keep people aware of how easily one can get sucked in. So without further ado let us meet today's guest. Take out your night. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. So I am Emily Lynn Paulson, and I am a wife and a mom in my real life.

And in her fake life, she is a writer and wrote a book, a real book called, Hey Hun, Sales, Sisterhood Supremacy and the other lies behind a multi-level marketing. And it is about my experience in an MLM. There's so many things looking back that are so cringy. I think like a lot of people who leave a cults are like I cannot believe I did or said that and so I try and add a humorous spin on it because a lot of it is very funny to me now. In your book you don't name the M.L.M. Is there a reason? The reason I really don't name it is for people's sake, for the fact that I want to be as honest as possible without throwing other people under the bus other than myself, right?

But all these situations are true. But the bigger reason is it doesn't matter. It could be any, insert any MLM company in there, and it's the same story. I guessed it, Tyler. I can't tell you which one it is, but I guess it's, the first, the first, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the tho, the tho.. So, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Soe, tho. I guessed it, Tyler. Yeah. I can't tell you which one it is, but I guess it's on the first try. So I guess you can guess pretty well. Guess the first CD I owned? CD? Yeah, CD.

Or mixed tape. CED. My first album was Sticks Paradise Theater. Guns in Roses. Not bad, actually not bad. I wish it was Guns and Roses. I'm kind of embarrassed. It's, um, it's Genesis. Can't Dance album. Good albums, Genesis. Underrated band. The can't dance album is not one of their best. Okay. I'm jealous. Siri, stop fun. I love the video. It is a good video. True, it is a very good video.

It's a very good video. I'm not a bad album. Rob's in studio here. Two white men talking about white man music that I don't understand. My first CD was Mariah Carrey Music Box. Anyway, but one of the reasons I really wanted Emily on our show is because her story is quite unique. She didn't get fucked over per se by the MLM.

She was one of the rare ones in the top 1%. Mm-hmm. Emily was what the MLM world calls a boss babe. She hates that word. A boss babe. What would be the equivalent of a boss babe if you're a man? A CEO. I grew up in Helena, Montana. Went to college in California, met my husband in Portland, Oregon.

And when we decided to start a family, I went back to school to get my master's in teaching, thinking, you know, teaching will be a great job for when we have kids which anybody who's a teacher is probably rolling their eyes right now, because it's a really hard job when you have kids or not. Oh yeah, I mean elementary school teachers do have a tough job, but that million dollar paycheck they bring home does make the job easier, am I right? They just really need to stop paying teachers so much and start paying politicians.

And athletes. And CEOs. Right. Once my first was born, we realized that it was not going to be sustainable for both of us to work out of the house. My husband had a very demanding job, so I stayed home. And we landed in Seattle. I had several more children. I was like, okay, I've been having kids now for seven, eight years. I couldn't go back to being a tea shirt because I couldn't afford child care. I just felt trapped in my life. And so I was th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. the th. th. the th. thi, thi. thi. thi. th. th. thi. thi. thi. the the the thi. thi. to, th. to, the the th. I'm, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thea. And, thea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. today. today, th my life. And so I was in this place where I kind of wanted to do something that made money and I was feeling kind of lonely. And so I had a friend from high school, like many people who join MLMs. That's how it starts is like a someone in your Facebook messages.

Hey, hon, I'm going to be in your area or hey, than. You know, have you see my product, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thu, thu-a, tho, tho, thi, thi, th-I th-I th-I th-I, tho, tho, and I was th. And, and I was th, and I was tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, teea, tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea, tea, tea, te, hon. You know, have you seen my products? And that's why it's always like these generic. Hey, hun, hey, girl, hey friend, hey, sis, because it's you don't want to accidentally put someone else's name in there. You get in this robot mentality of just cut paste, cutpaste, send, click send, click send, click send. It doesn't matter who you're sending it to. It's like a funny joke that's that it's like, oh, I got Hund. Or like, the Huns are out. That's just like a general nickname for MLM chicks. It's also very heteronormitive and it's women, because women are targeting other women. So it's never, hey, bro, hey bud, hey bud, hey buddy. Hey, Liz, have you ever been Hunt a couple times actually?

I got Hunt on the street. That sounds interesting. I got picked up right, I was jogging. And I got Hunt from a lady who came out of her house and brought out some like Arbonne potions, literally, and it was like, you look thirsty. Wow, this will rejuvenate you. Right there on the street. And she had like a very attractive man bring me the potions and I was like

What's going on here? And then a girl I know well, I was friends with her husband growing up She without fail sends me a Facebook message every two to three months and I've never replied. Hey, how are you? How's today? You know and like the whole never taken over an answer? We need to teach these people about consent and the word no. Maybe they'll listen. Okay, so back to Emily. She's feeling lonely and she's mom and hard and one day she gets huntunded by this old high school friend. I knew of her, but I don't think we'd ever spoken. And she could have been selling anything. to be in Seattle, meeting with some people from my company, would you want to come out

and have some wine? And she could have been selling anything. You know, it was like an avenue, like I can get out of a house, I can put makeup on and shoes and brush my hair, and that was really enough for me to go meet with her. All the moms listening feel what she's saying so hard. So Emily, she dresses up. She goes to the bar to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to meet to me to me, the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and, their, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. We. Wea, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they. Wea. Wea. Wea. I. I'm. Wea. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm they. Wea, their. Wea, their. I'm. So Emily, she dresses up, she goes to the bar to meet her old high school friend who is sitting with some other women. And after a while if shooting the shit, she pulls out some products. The M-LM products, which

could be anything from skin care to fart leggings to chocolate shakes. Mmm. Fart leggings. That makes me want a fart lai in right now. And so when it also came with this, oh look there's some products here. thi-tool thu tho th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, that, that, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the that, that, that, that, that, that, that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that that that. And so when it also came with this, oh look, there's some products here that I was like, cool, those look good. Oh look, I could maybe make money from this. All the people there were validating all of the things that I wanted. Like, oh gosh, I, you know, I got divorced last year, and I felt so alone. thi thi thii. last year and I felt so alone and this gave me an instant community or I started using these products last year my skin looks better than ever and I was like

oh this is someone from my hometown who I trust who wouldn't lead me astray right? Wrong. Like most cults with MLMs you often get recruited in by your close friends or people you trust. That's what makes it so tricky tricky. Tricky tricky.icky, tricky, tricky, tricky, yeah, trick, you rock around, to rock around, things like, oh no, it's tricky. Tricky, tricky. That's run, DMC, we're referencing it so we can now play it on the podcast. They're use laws. I was the perfect target of wanting all of those things that tha, tha, joined that evening, you know, put the $1,000 purchase on my credit card to sign

up. At first I was like, I'm not going to tell anybody about this, I'm not going to tell my husband about it. And I got a text from my mom, like, what there. Upline is the term for people above you in the MLM. Or the people who live up... The line. I don't have a joke. Somebody give me an upline joke. He's right in with an upline joke. And I did initially have people who were like, oh, what is that company? And so people were intrigued.

I was like, okay, well, here's some info. I don't really know a ton about it yet. And my best friend, she was trying to get out of this marriage and, you know, she was like, thinne to be something for me. so she joined me really quick so I had that very initial dopamine rush of oh my gosh this is working and I just kind of ran with it like wow what she said was true you know I joined and I believed and it's all working out for me because the one reason I was able to be successful at first was there weren't a lot of people in my area selling this particular product. So I was like a very quick success story and I got all

these like bonuses like I was getting gifts from my upline and there were these trips that I could qualify for and so I got very addicted very quickly to that success and I was like wow now I could actually make some money. A year in I was making like three or four thousand dollars a month. Which is pretty th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thu the thu their that that that that that thate tho-a their that-a' tho-a' tho-a' tho-a' their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thus. tho-I. thus. I tho-I. thoo'lou-liiiia'lou-l. tou-l. tm. tm. toul. tool. theou-l. theou-l. thee thousand dollars in the month, which is pretty damn good for like a stay-at-home mom. Okay, so let's back up. What is an MLM and what makes it different from a real company? Multi-level, the MLM of the MLM. That makes all the difference.

There are MLM companies who will sing and dance around the fact that they're MLM's, oh,'re a direct sales company, we're a network marketing company, or a social commerce. More like a direct to debt company. Nice. But if you are incentivized to recruit other human beings, or if you buy a product from a company and you're buying from a person who has joined another person, who has joined another person, if you sign up as a distributor or a wholesale customer or whatever, like it's the multi-level aspect of it, that there's someone financially benefiting from you.

And the difference from just a normal sales job and it doesn't matter if you have a million managers, employees under you, they're actually getting a salary. They're getting an actual payment for their time. A multi-level marketing, independent contractor gets nothing nothing nothing nothing not only not getting paid, you pay, you pay to join, and then 99.7% of the time you will never make a dime and you do a lot of labor. I mean, I could list a million reasons why it's different, but the multi-level aspect of it is what makes it different.

According to a report by the Consumer Awareness Institute and written by John M. Taylor, less than 1% of MLM participants actually make money. But small business is a gamble, right? Well, that's true, but according to that same study, 39% of small businesses are profitable over the entire life of the business. That's significantly better than 1%. That's like the chances of getting a gold medal or the Nobel piece of it is. th, th, th, th, th, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, th th of, th th th th th th of, of, of, of, th thi, thi, th th th th th th th thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th of it, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is the the the the thei theiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, is thi, thi, is the entire life of the business. That's significantly better than 1%. That's like the chances of getting a gold medal or the Nobel Peace Prize. We're hitting the bull's eye blindfolded.

Yet board moms all over the world are like, give me that dirt! I can do that! Yeah, we joke around. But sadly, most of the people who sign up for an MLM have no idea the low success rate. and thage. thage. thage. thage. thage. thage. thage. thage. thirty thirty. to thirty. to to to thirty thirty thirty thirty thirty thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty, thirty thirty thirty thirty toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. th. th. thirt. thirt. thirt. th. th. th. That, th. That, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thirty, that, the recruiters are feeding them the exact opposite rhetoric. Yeah, inflated stories and social media posts about boats and second homes and mom caves filled with champagne and Godiva chocolate. And beds for uninterrupted naps. MLMs, in your knowledge, how prevalent are they?

So in America, the MLM industry is almost a 200 billion, billion with a B dollar industry. It's huge, it's bigger than Hollywood, pro sports. That's nearly as much as our podcast makes. Just add two more zeros and then you've got our podcast. There's over 200 multi-level marketing companies that you could just Google and find on any given day. And of those two billion... 200 billion. 200 shit. Can't even do any math today. Who's actually making the money? The companies. The companies are making the money. It's an interesting side note. It's like

MLM reps love to malign corporate America. Like ditch your 9 to 5, corporate America sucks, join my MLM, make your own hours. Every MLM is a corporation. So you know you've got these corporations so they're making the money. The CEOs, the employees of this company make the money and then the very, very few independent contractor reps who are at the top of the pyramid, you know, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, like, th, like, like, like, like, th, like, like, the the their, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, thi, their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the.e. theateate, their, their, their, their, very few independent contractor reps who are at the top of the pyramid, you know, less than a tenth of a percent of people make a livable wage. Any company that has an income disclosure, you can go Google it, you can look at it, and it is abysmal how much money people actually make. The only people making money are the very few people at the top. As we've mentioned, it's not really about selling the products.

It's more about recruiting people into your downline. Which basically means annoying the shit out of your friends and family. So really my recruiting was just friends, my closest friends. And they knew, liked and trusted me. They all had their own reasons. Like, I'm bored too. I want some products bored too. I want some products too. It like checked boxes for them too. The first thing that you have to learn is how to squash

other people's objections. A lot of like the training and language, look at messages that MLM Huns have sent you. They're like, hey, I thought of you when I joined this. You know, they're the first person who came their, their, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, their, th, th, th, th, their, their, th, their, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, I their, I their, their, their, their, their, their, I their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. the. thea, their, their, toge. toge, their, too, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, joined this, you know, they're the first person who came to my mind. Of course, you weren't the first person that came to my mind. I had a list of a thousand people because I was told to make a list of a thousand people. And I'm sending this message to everybody. I don't know if this is for you, but I'd love to just talk to cult recruitment. And then you get someone else in the company on the phone with them. They'll do the selling. And then it's like this validation from someone quote-unquote more successful. And then meanwhile I've told my upline all the objections they're going to have, right? Like she works out of the house and she doesn't think she's going to have time for this.

And so then my upline I'll do all do all do all do all do all do all do all do all do all th all th all th all th all th all th all th all th all th all to exit your nine to five and spend more time with your kids. And it's all just designed to hit pain points for people, whether it's the products, the financial, the community piece, and then when I recruit people, my downline will then bring these calls to me and I'll talk through other people's objections. And it's a lot easier to take the emotion out of it when it's a complete stranger. So it's just the system that's, it's really cringy. It's called a three-way call, which again is its own like stupid inuendo.

Yeah. You would think they could come up with a better term for three people on a phone. Yeah, it's super awkward if you're talking to like the PTA leader at your kid's school and you and youto get the principal on the phone and you have to say, well we could do a three-way. Although you could be saying what everyone's thinking anyways. Would you like to have a three-way with me? Do you know how many times I've been approached for a threesome? It's too much to count. No, please count.

We've got all day. You know, they used to call me threesome, me some, back in the day. They never called me that. Should we move on? Yes. And the recruitment process with MLMs is intense. So I'm going to squash any objection you have, no matter how critically thinking it is, it's all about making you feel like you need this and what you're doing and your life and your situation isn't good enough.

Hey, put this purchase on your credit card. Don't worry, you'll have the money to pay for it later. Or don't worry, there's a refund policy. True, there is a refund policy, but by the time you join, your likelihood of canceling of cancelling is going to be so much lower because you're going to have all these MLM chicks on your ass telling you not to quit and telling you that you'll make it and if you just believe in yourself. And they saw that I was quickly successful. So I was very honest and I really believed. Like hey I joined and I'm already making this mo'errip. What was your first trip? My first trip was actually a retreat. I earned this retreat. thiiii th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to th. to th. to their th. to to their to th. their th. their th. their their their their to to to to their their to to to to to toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to quit toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. I toe. I toe. I th. I'll their their their their their their their their their their. I. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll. I'll toe. I'll toe. I'll toe. trip. What was your first trip? My first trip was actually a retreat. Like I earned this retreat. You pay your own airfare, you pay your own

everything, and it was a retreat in the mountains, in this cabin like, well I earned this trip, and then you post pictures of it, and it's like we're all lined up and matching outfits, and it's the sisterhood and this escape. They were busy as hell. We're all having these power hour sessions. Morning tonight, you were doing business activities or having sessions on personal development and all the stuff to make you a better boss babe. Like all cults, they want to keep you as busy as possible so no critical thought can seep in. Okay, reality show ideal is, you take me and you put me in the middle of this MLM cabin retreat and you see how long it takes for me to become an axe murderer.

Okay, that series would not go the full season. No, it would be like the shining on Fast Forward. I'd be full-on Jack Torrance before the first commercial break. Hey Hans. Here's Tyler. I'm not going to hurt you, Wendy. I'm just going to upline the shit out of you. All work and no pay makes Jack a boss babe. But these boss babe retreats are a way to further indoctrinate and bring together the

like-mindedness of the group. We're all like fighting the same thing. We all feel very lonely. We're all maybe fighting with our spouses. We all feel burdened by motherhood or whatever. And I think there's the systemic part of it that MLM's really exploit, because the whole country is held on the backs of women's unpaid labor.

That's the reality. There's a lot of trauma bonding that goes that goes things. You talk about very vulnerable things. You know, I would leave those knowing very personal things about people that maybe I shouldn't have known about complete strangers and that trauma bonding makes it harder to leave later because you're like, shit these people know everything, right? But it's not really solving anything. You're leaving for a weekend and you're coming back to all the same stuff, and now you've spent a whole shit ton of money,

and you're probably making the problems worse, right? I went on at least a dozen trips or retreats, incentive trips. I earned dozens and dozens of, like, iPads, purses, Louis Vuitton luggage, you know, diamonds, encrusted necklaces. What makes you get that gift? You have to get to a certain either sales number, recruit a certain number of people, host an event, have a Facebook party, and you have to recruit three people. It was always all these weird things, and so you were just kept so busy and confused. One day an iPad just landed at my door because I had apparently fulfilled the requirements that I didn't even know I was fulfilling.

You get your 1099 statement at the end of the year and I was like, holy shit, I didn't make this much. Like my paychecks didn't show this much. And then I see the line items. Oh, the $1,000 iPad is on there. Oh, the $500 products I won are on there. That's all listed as income. So my income now that I have to pay taxes on is like $10,000 more.

So all of these things are given to you as income. Products are great, but like, I can't pay my phone bill with an iPad. Did you find that your personality was shifting from what it was into something new. It happened slowly at first and then very dramatically where I became the MLM and that's very addictive in a lot of ways. And I was pushing away friends and family. Like my brother was like, you are in a Ponzi scheme. And it did affect our relationship because that's what you're told. You're told to block out the people who don't support you and

you're coached on how to ignore opinions outside of yourself. So when you're not allowing yourself to get any feedback on those things, that's very detrimental. But it's not a cult, right? What was your husband's feelings about what you were involved in? So at first, he was very much like, oh God, don't be one of those people, you know? And I told him, like, I'll make my money back in a couple of months, and if I don't, I'll return this stupid kid. And he saw that it was like making me happy on paper.

Like I was getting out more, and I was feeling more accomplished, and it was giving me something to do. So he was like, that's cool. And yet there were periods of time where he would question things like when I earned the car, there's a lot of air quotes here, because the car's not free, where he's like, you know this isn't free, right? He'd try to like just be very realistic about it. So I'd be like, oh, he just doesn't th isn't th isn't th isn't th isn't th isn't thian. So I'd be like, oh, he just doesn't get it, it's fine.

Why do you look so tired, Tyler? Because I'm tired. I'm tired of shopping and cooking and cleaning, and then shopping and cooking and cleaning. Sound like a 50s housewife. Get over yourself, man. All right, don't get me wrong. I love to cook, but honestly. You would just rather someone cook for you. You're trying to sell me on something aren't you Liz? Yep, Factor. They're delicious ready to eat meals just made your life a whole lot easier. Oh, now it's my term. Factor has chef-crafted meals delivered right to your door. With dietary options like keto, calorie smart, vegan, veggie, literally over 35 different variations so even

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So Tyler, you can put your cleaning skills to use in other places, like my house. You know, I think I'm just going to catch up on my sleep. It's probably a better idea. Head to factor meals.com slash was I 5-0 and use code was I 50% off. That's code was I 50% off. That's code was I 50% off. Sometime in the early 80s, Arios Speedwagon's airplane made an unannounced middle of the night landing.

This is my friend Kyle McLaughlin, the star of Twin Peaks, and he's telling me about how he discovered a real-life Twintwin peaks in rural North Carolina, not far from where he filmed blue velvet. What was on the plane was copious amounts of drugs, coming in from South America. Supposedly Pablo Escobar went looking for other spots, quiet, out of the way places to bring in his cocaine. My name is Joshua Davis, and I'm an investigative reporter. Kyle and I talk all the time about the strange things we come across, but nothing was quite as strange as what we found in Varnamtown, North Carolina.

There's crooked cops, brother against brother. Everyone's got a story to tell, but does the truth even exist? Welcome to Varnamtown. Varnamtown is available wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay Liz, if you could start your own MLM, what would it be? I think my MLM would target the realists of the world, you know, for those who have given up. Hmm, smart. Names like old skin or couch body or forever dying. What about you Tyler? I mean mine would probably be like Tupperware but with lids that never seal and tons of BPA plastic.

So Tuberware? Yeah. But maybe different colors and the name would be safety last. Organization first, safety last. And how many days a week were you working and what did it involve? At first I was working a lot. I was just always on my phone and I have to make these calls in the car. I'm doing all these three-way calls in the car. I had to have a certain number of reachouts every day. I had to do power hours, zoom calls. The hours I was working became a lot.

So like, here is my life thia thia thia thia thia thia thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th hours I was working became a lot. So like here is my life where I want to spend more quality time with my kids and also earn an income and I'm spending less time with them. I missed several first days of, because I had to go to these conventions. And, you know, I can look back on so many first days that like grandparents were taking pictures of or whatever that I I wasn't present. When you would do these conventions, you, the their, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to spend, to spend, to spend, to spend, to spend, to spend, to spend, to to spend, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, toe, toe, toe, to, to, grandparents were taking pictures of or whatever that I wasn't present. When you would do these conventions, you were a leader, right? The first one I went to, I'd only been in for a few months. And it was like, hey, there's this trip you can go on.

And I was like, trip? Cool. Me and my best friend went. Like, we had a great timeime time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time time to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. the the th. th. to. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the the the the time. You get there and it's like all these sessions like there's musicians and it's like you dress up and it's a very electrifying feels very important. Reality show idea Liz. Here we go. You take Liz and you put her in this convention and watch as I slowly turn into Tyler. That's stupid. I get short curly blonde hair and abundance of useless facts and knowledge of every REO Speedwagon album ever created. That is kind of spot on. Yeah, there's all these speakers and they're all talking about the benefit of this company and how life changing it is and there's some product unveiling and oh, by the way, the people

who didn't show up at convention don't get it so you feel like you have to buy it. Every consultant buys it. Their closets are full of leggings. Their cabinets are full of skin care. They're whatever, their showers are full of shampoo. That's how the company makes money. And that's why it's like, oh, look, we're a billion dollar brand. All you've done is created a new thing that your consultants have thapapapapapapapapapap on stage, the million dollar earners, and you're like, next year I'm going to be walking across the stage. And so that

very much was motivating to me. It's the same feeling the first time Tyler saw Richard Simmons on TV. Yeah, I was like, I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to have that body. My second convention, I was in a little over two years at th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tooes. tooes. tooomea. to, to, tooomea, toe. toe. toe. to be to be th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, toe. And, toe. And, toea. And, toea. And, toea. And, toea. And, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, over two years at this point. I earned whatever milestone it took to get a walk across the stage. I felt like, oh, I had achieved something. And so it kept me even more sucked in. And then it was like, oh, here I am walking on stage. And there's all of these people again out there.

It's all of us are like the same people walking across the stage, and it's now this pool of people who aren't, like I'm still a leader, why aren't more people leveling up? It must be something they're doing, because you're told it's all your personal work, right? It must be them, it's not the system. Follow the system and you will too succeed, but if you don't, it's your fault.

And it's your fault. You're not Richard Simmons today, Tyler, because you didn't do the work. It's always my fault. And here's another depressing stat for you. According to the same study from the Consumer Awareness Institute, get this guys, less than one in 25,000 new recruits will ever achieve the substantial quote residual income touted at opportunity meetings. Wow. Less than one in 25,000. Wow. And those who do make a profit are usually those

who joined very early in the company when the market had not been saturated. These later recruits are being sold a ticket for a flight that has already left the ground. Share just some of the dogma with us. Yeah, it's all very much like stuff you'd see on a poster like in your dentist's office. Like no change happens in your comfort zone. In an MLM, that's manipulated because you're gonna be uncomfortable all the time because you're doing things that are shitty. Like you're cold messaging people, you're selling people a dream that doesn't exist. That's not stepping out of your comfort zone.

The worst is like, never take no for an answer. That's the worst one because, first of all, what? Like, no. If someone says no, like respect that they say no, but you are told, if someone says no, it means not right now, and so I need to keep following up, or I need to educate them. Because what sane person wouldn't want to do what I'm doing, look how wonderful this company is. And so there's a lot of loaded language around when people give you reasonable, like, oh, is this a pyramid scheme? The answer is pyramid schemes are illegal.

That's not an answer. So is robbing a bank? People still rob banks. Like, explain to me why it's not a pyramid scheme and guess what, they can't. Because it is, it's a pyramid scheme with products. Actually, a pyramid scheme would be a better financial bet. According to the study from the Consumer Awareness Institute, MLMs are, quote, worse than classic no-product pyramid schemes,

for which the loss rate is only about 90%. So to break it down, guys, you have a 10% chance of making money in a pyramid scheme. In an MLM, it's less than 1%. Yeah, so if MLMs are, in fact, pyramid schemes, they're so bad that they make Bernie Madoff look good. But she's right, MLMs aren't pyramid schemes. They're actually cults.

How you got paid? I got like a $200 bonus for every person who joined, even though on the actual products, you'd make like $20, 30 dollars, it wasn't that much. So then the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thoomomome, thoom, thi, that, that, thoom. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thr. thr. thrown. the. tooooooooooooooooooooooo. tooo. too. way you make money over time is I grew a network. All these people who join, you have a minimum product purchase. I think we had to buy $100 worth of our own products. So all of these consultants, all these recruits are buying their own products. Their recruits are buying their own products.

That's where the money comes from. The money's trick came from the bottom. I joined at the right time. I joined pretty early. I joined when nobody knew about it. And I escalated very quickly. That didn't happen for anybody else who joined me. My whole pyramid, like I was the only one who succeeded.

And over the course of the seven years, there were probably, I couldn't even tell you, probably 3,000 people who were in my downline. I was making just under $10,000 a month. It's not like I was banking all of this cash. I was spending thousands and thousands of dollars a month. When you look at the economics of it, people are not making that much money, and so much of it is going back into purchasing products, incentive trips, paying your own trips. You really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really, you, you, you, you, th, th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I've th, I've th, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, thi, thi, thi, thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi own team, buying gifts. You really start to realize how much money goes back into the system. You know, I've been in articles where they're like, women becomes a millionaire in an MLM. It's not like I had a million dollars sitting in the bank.

You know, that million dollars was over seven years. If you divide that up, and then also look at the topity top top, it's like I was working my ass off for like what I could have gone a regular job for. Couch body is going to be so different you guys. To be in my MLM, all you have to do is sit on your ass eating our signature couch trips and then get like 10 people. Yeah, and then they get 10 people. No trips, no gifts, just get a bunch of despondent assholes who have given up to eat chips on a couch.

And then you'll just make hundreds of Bitcoin by selling chips. It's a good idea. There's lots of chips out there. Potato chips, corn chips, poker chips. We're on to something here, Liz. Curly chips, straight chips. Couch body chips. That M-LM would kind of crush. Guys, write us. If you would buy our couch chips, honestly, let us know and perhaps we will start to sell, was-a-nagult, couch-body chips. Yeah. So chip in everyone. That's so stupid. Now back to Emily. And what was interesting about the timeline of me, like, succeeding, was my personal life was falling like into abject failure. Like I was drinking a lot, had gotten in trouble with the law.

I got a DUI. I got a DUI the night I earned my car. The irony. I got a breathalizer in my fancy white car. And it got towed away right in front of me as I was sitting handcuffed in the back of a police car. That was like basically what led to me getting sober. And then it was the next year at convention,

you know I was very newly sober. And the company was like, wow, congrats, Emily. We'd love to hear your inspirational tale. I was like, that's so cool that they want me to talk to people. Realizing all it was was doing was giving another signal boost to this MLM. I really believed everything I was saying. It was like, and join this company and you too can achieve your dreams, right? And yet at the same time I couldn't ignore the fact that people beneath me weren't achieving the same thing. I hit like the top level the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. the thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I the. I theateateateate. I thinin' theateate. I thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' thin' the thin'n, I'm thin' thin' thin' thin' te. I'm really really really really really really, I'm te. I'm te. I'm really really, I'm ttttte. I'm te. I'm really really really really really, I'm really, I'm really really really really really, I'm really really, top level of the company and like the highest paycheck I ever had and realizing it was because so many other people were losing money. What I was doing was selling the stream and now I realized it didn't exist.

That's where the wheels started to fall off. So I was in the MLM almost seven years and about halfway through that point is when I got sober. I grew a sober. I had a sponsor, I had a therapist. I had all all all all all alls that were telling me, hey, maybe what you're doing isn't as on the up and up as you think and realizing that I very much had been a victim of coercive control like everybody who's in a cult. And once I allowed just a very small sliver of like, what if I'm not right? Then it it allowed me to understand that I had, to be... to be. to be. to be. the, the, to be the to be. the to be the to be the to be. to be the the to be the to be to be to be to be to be to be to be a to be a to be a to bea. their, thoe. I, thoe. I was, thi. I was, thi. I was, thi, thi, th. I was, th. I was, th. I was, th. I was, th. I, th. I, th. I, the the th. I, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. I, thea, thea, te. I was teate. I'm, teateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateate. I wase. I wase. I was, te. I was, right? Then it allowed me to understand that I had completely siloed myself. And then as I started doing my 12 steps and all these amends I had to make about things I had done in the MLM, things I had said,

and realizing that I could not believe the bullshit I had been saying for all those years and I couldn't keep repeating it. I really don't like this. I don't like this this this this this this this th th tho th th th th th th th th th th th th th thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thr- I thr-I thr-I th. I thr-I thr-I their. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. thr-I thr-I thr-I thrown. thrownee. tean. teaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneaneate. te. te. te. 't want to do this anymore. And so I changed my own behavior, right? I didn't reach out to people anymore. I didn't say any of the you know platitudes and this buzzwords anymore. I didn't think at that point I would leave. I just thought I would start doing something else. So I started seeing more and more things that I didn't like and realized you know I'm to their thr-and more to to th. to to th. to to th. to to th. th. th. to the to thi. to thi. thi. the thi. to be to be thi. to be thin. to be thi. to be thi. thi. to their their thi. their their their their their their their their their their to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. their. their. their their. their their thin. thin. thin. the. the. the. theateateateateateatea. theatea. their their the the the the the thea. the the the their their toea. toea. I to be more honest with my team, my customers, letting them know like, hey, I'm not going to really be selling this anymore. This is how I feel about it now.

And again, like making those amends to the people who I recruited, you know, like, if I had to start over now, I wouldn't have ever sold this to you. I went silent for a very long time and was like just getting a paycheck. was like just getting a paycheck. And I thought, I'll just stay till it goes away and that's fine. And I still had this kind of belief, like, this company's still fine, but by the time the convention came around, I was very much like, fuck this, I never want to do this again. I hate this company.

No amount of money is good enough for this pyramid scheme. And that's when I sent in a termination the term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term term a the the the the the the the the the the the the the term you go. It was like, all of those accolades, all those, everything, me being like this princess queen, like at the top, was gone, gone. I knew the second I left that people who had maybe considered friends wouldn't be anymore. I'd also seen other people leave and see them get blacklisted, so I just knew what I was going to expect.

These are my friends. the people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people then friends then, then, then, thia thia thia thi was going to expect. These are my friends. These are the people who posted ad nauseum my recovery story and are like, look at this amazing person who's involved in this company. As soon as I left, they were like, fuck her. Right? Like, she's dead to us. If it smells like a cult,

looks like a cult. It's probably an MLM. I think that's another reason that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's a that's that's that's that's a that's another reason people stay is, well now I've isolated myself into this cult where I've already pushed away all my in real life friends and family and these are my friends and I know they won't talk to me when I leave. So I have to stay even if I'm losing money. I'm sure people looked at you like, are you crazy? You make so much doing nothing. This is the dream. Yeah, what cost though my own integrity? I knew to. I. I. I. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. And, the. And, th. And, th. And, what cost though? My own integrity? I knew too much at that point. And there are people who are in who want to leave who cannot, and I understand that. Or are afraid to leave their community, right? So I never want to be like, oh, if you don't like it, leave. It's just not that simple. Otherwise, I would have left years ago too, because it just that thi. When did you learn about cults and combining them with MLM?

When did that happen? So when I was first looking to get sober, I wanted to listen to stories of MLMs and make myself feel better. Like make myself feel like I'm not in the wrong, I'm the one doing it right. I listened to the Dream podcast and no matter how different some of those people were from me, there was so much similar coercion and behavioral control, information control, thought control, emotional control. And I found a way where I had been coerced in every single one of those categories. And I read Ponzinomics, and I kept indoctrinating myself and the things I wasn't allowed

to read before. YouTube channels I was, you know, forbidden from watching before. And thankfully, Emily, the th, and th, and th, and, and, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi thi thi, and thi thi thi thi thi thi thi myself and the things I wasn't allowed to read before. YouTube channels I was, you know, forbidden from watching before. And thankfully, Emily had multiple talents up her sleeve. Getting sober made me realize how much I love writing. And once I started researching and listening to other people's stories, I'm like, people have to know like how culty this is, and made me feel like I had something to say and wanted to put it out there. When I was working with my editor, she said to me, like, you're a white woman talking about how white people benefit from MLMs and how they're not equitable. And like, this is something that needs to be talked about. I'll be honest.

I'm not qualified to talk about this stuff, but there's a reason why when you look at the leaders in an MLM, you look at a leadership retreat or a convention or whatever. They're all white chicks. The people at the top are all white men, right? The CEO, the leadership, like it's pretty much all dudes. And the people working are all unpaid contract workers that are women. And the way that is sold is like, oh, the founders wanted to make more women millionaires. No. It was a way for them to get in households everywhere and make as much money for themselves. So MLMs are very intrinsically misogynistic, very much rooted in racism and implicit biases. MLMs and the recruiting practices are so systemically racist that people considered like low socioeconomic status are actually protected from being recruited.

MLMs exploit that idea that anyone can do this and if you don't it is your fault. So it just perpetuates that white people are the ones at the top. And then at the same time, what you see in the marketing materials is like, oh, this looks like a very diverse company because the models, there's Asian and there's a Latina and a black woman, but there's not actually those people in the company. It's very smoke and mirrory. And Tyler can probably speak to this more as an ex-Morman, but why are Mormons so obsessed with MLMs?

Oh for sure, I mean, Utah is the birthplace for most MLMs. Colts love cults, I guess. Colts love cults, and it's the prosperity gospel. There's a lot of marriage in there of the more money you make, the closer you are to God, specifically in the Mormon church. Oh yes, something I actually know about. I can attest, MLMs are everywhere in my former state of Utah. In Utah, you either work for an MLM or you sell for an MLM or you are cooking on some bullshit MLM frying pan. You know, you go into someone's bathroom in Provo, it's like walking into an MLM showroom.

There's nothing but lot lotions and potions and pills. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, multi-level marketing drove nearly $2.7 billion in Utah in 2020. That's billion with a B, Tyler. It's almost as much as our podcast makes. Also, remember that Mormon missionaries who live in Utah, they're sent all over the world and their training translates nicely into direct sales. If you can sell Joseph Smith as a profit in Sweden, you can sell skin care anywhere.

Also, let's not forget that Mormon women usually have their children early and often. And then they are left in their late 30s and 40s with not much to do. But lot lotions, potions and pills to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their late 30s and 40s with not much to do. But sell lotions, potions, and pills to their friends. And then church groups, because it's not just Mormon churches where people are exploited for MLMs, it's because they're their own closed environments. And so if you are doing something in a closed environment where you're already worshipping the same thing, we believe in the same thing, I would never lead you astray, right? Why do you think people have such a hard time still correlating M-LM to cult?

Because you see the pictures on social media where they have their fancy designer bags and they're going on trips and how could that be bad? Anything for anybody listening that may be in an MLM. So if you're in an MLM and you're listening to this episode, please don't give it a one-star review based on my speaking. Instead give it one star because of Liz's annoying voice. Or Tyler's stupid facts that you all fast-forward through. They're not. They love my facts. Like this one, did you know that Elvis is sold over one billion records worldwide? One billion with a B Liz. He's had over a hundred and 50 different albums and single. Cut him off, Rob. Certified Gold, Platinum and Multi-Platinum.

Make it stop! Just leave enough of an open mind that maybe the things you believe the company you're in is not 100% right. Just allow yourself that critical information. Maybe listen to the stories of people who have very real experiences, who have been burned, who haven't succeeded and understand that it isn't the stories of people who have very real experiences, who have been burned, who haven't succeeded, and understand that it isn't their fault, even if you've been told that, that whether or not you decide to participate or stay

involved, the system is rigged and survives because so many people fail. It's just the way it is. Yeah, I look in the past but I don't stare. If I could go back, I would work really hard to remedy. Like, why am I isolated? Why am I feeling like I need a drink? Why am I feeling like I need to join this company? Right? And I would look for things that actually fill those needs. Like maybe asking for more support, asking for whatever I actually needed? th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I would thi, I would th, I would th, I would thi, I would thi, I would thi, I would thi, I would thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I th. I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I would thi, I would thi, I would thi, th needs. Like maybe asking for more support, asking for whatever I actually needed, you know, getting like a meetup group or something like organizing something that was actually helpful because drinking didn't help me obviously but you know I want to go back and like give myself a hug for thinking I needed all these other things. So today what's your life like? How are you a boss

babe today? Oh my God, I hate that word. Hate that word. It's so lovely to be able to work when I want, really work when I want, to put down my phone. Just being available to my kids, really available to my kids. God, my life is so much quieter. And it is so nice. And since we've chatted, Emily has had some notable achievements.

Her book again titled, Hey Hun, Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and other lies behind multi-level marketing was part of NPR's Books of the Year for 2023. Incredible acknowledgement, Emily, congratulations. Yes, the book is also currently being shopped as a scripted and unscripted series, so all of our ten fingers crossed. She's also the founder of the Sober Mom Squad and per the website it is just as it sounds. A squad of moms who are already sober, those who are just dipping their toes in exploring an alcohol free lifestyle and everything in between. We share, we connect, we talk about

the hard shit, we create community in the lonely pockets of motherhood. And they sell sober drinks. And all you have to do is get 10 sober moms to buy 10 drinks, and then they get 10 sober drinks and sober friends to sign up, and then they buy our chips. No, no, no. They actually, they don't do that. But it does sound like a great community. So for any sober moms listening, check it out. Emily has also given two TEDx talks and has been featured in many major publications. Links to her book and everything else will be in our show notes.

So keep kicking ass and taking names, Emily. And if you could just give me those names, I'd like to recruit them into my MLM called Oldskin. It's a company that sells face products to ensure you age appropriately. I mean, why look 40 when you can look 50? That's my, that's my slogan. With that, we will leave you with one more quote from the study referenced by John M. Taylor. As a business model, MLM is likely the most successful con game of all time.

The very people who are out recruiting are themselves victims until they run out of money and quit. And because victims seldom file complaints, law enforcement rarely acts. It's a vicious cycle. No complaints. No law enforcement action. No complaints. So the game goes on.

So keep spreading awareness. That's what we do. If you, or anyone you know, has a story they want to share on our show, email us at Info, at Was I in a Cult. And thank you to all of you who have told your friends and continue to tell your friends and spread the good word, we owe you our MLM cars we never got. Also follow us on Instagram at Was I an occult and support us on Patreon for some extra

bonus yum yums. We'll be back next week with another boss babe. After that meeting, my dad basically told me that I was going to get married to that guy. And I was going to be married to him that night. Everything kind of just moved in fast motion after that. My aunt gave me a dress to wear. It was this green velvet dress. I remember putting makeup on, and then I was like,

but wait, where am I going to sleep tonight? And nobody, nobody said anything. That that that that that that that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiight? And nobody, nobody said anything. That's when it kind of hit me that something really bad was going to happen. Was Anacult is written, produced and hosted by the top, huh? Tyler Mesa. And the boss babe and my downline, Liz Ayacuzzi. Sound edit and designed by the pyramid schemer Rob Parra.