Was I In A Cult? - NXIVM Aftermath - Jessica Joan Returns: “Not My Monkey, Not My Circus”

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

Four years after we first met her in our studio - just days after her victim impact statement in Alison Mack’s NXIVM trial - Jessica Joan is back.Since we last spoke, Jessica shared her story on the Hulu docuseries “How I Escaped My Cult”, and a lot has shifted: in her healing, in what “justice” means, and in what accountability actually looks like over time.This follow-up conversation was prompted by our recent interview with journalist Natalie Robehmed, host of the podcast “Alison After NXIVM”, where listeners hear Alison speak publicly about NXIVM and her life post-prison. After that episode, it felt important to come back to Jessica - to hear directly from someone harmed by Alison, and to explore the messy questions of empathy, forgiveness, and what we’re really asking for when we say we want “accountability.”FOLLOW USFor more culty content - follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacultFIND JESSICAGet your copy of The Untouchable: Jessica Joan & the Downfall of NXIVMCheck out her new website: www.thisisjessicajoan.comInstagram/TikTok: @thesirenandthesunflowerSUPPORT THE SHOWIf you believe in what we’re doing - shining a light on manipulation, coercive control, and cultic abuse - please rate, review, and share the podcast.Want even more?Join us on Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and behind-the-scenes conversations.HAVE A CULTY STORY TO SHARE?If you’ve been part of a cult - we want to hear from you.Email us → [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. I would have to go to work and then I would cry in the bathroom and I couldn't sleep. The insomnia was so rough. I'm on my knees crying, praying to God.

Just like, why? Like, take me now. I'm fucking over it. this is too much I don't want to do this anymore I really just wanted to not exist it was just unbearable Hey everyone

Happy New Year It is Liz Iakuzi And welcome back to Was I in a cult Sadly Tyler has some personal stuff going on right now And won't be able to join us today so it's just me.

Today's episode is a follow-up conversation with one of our very first guests we ever had on this show, Jessica Joan. Now, Jessica was part of Keith Reneer's nexium cult and later became a key whistleblower working with the FBI to help take him down. Now, long-time listeners will remember her from our first season.

She had just given her victim impact statement in Allison Mack's trial, literally days before coming into our studio. That was four years ago, and a lot has happened since then, including Jessica sharing her story in the Hulu docu series, How I Escapeed My Cult.

Now, aside from the fact that I love Jessica and I was excited to hug her in real life again, one of the reasons we wanted to bring her back today is because a few episodes ago, we interviewed journalist Natalie Robamed, who hosted the podcast, Allison after Nexium. Like its title implies, that series explores Alison Mack's life after prison, post-prison. It's the first time listeners

really hear Allison tell her own story firsthand about her indoctrination in Tenexium, her abuse that she endured at the hands of Keith, and it, of course, brings up questions of accountability that come with all of the abuse that she participated in. And after that conversation, we felt it was important to come back to Jessica as somebody who was abused by Allison, who was directly harmed by this woman, and check in with her, see how she is now, ask her, how is she processing all of this, and what accountability actually looks like from her perspective? It's not every day that the person abused you, goes to prison, comes out, and is reclaiming themselves in the world with some awareness of what they did.

As you can imagine, this is a complex conversation, and we don't try to wrap it up in a perfect bell. So if you would like to revisit Jessica's original story and get to know her first before diving in here, highly recommend that. She was episodes three and four of this series. And today, we pick it up from there four years later. Here is my conversation with the lovely and forever badass Jessica Joan. Welcome to the show, welcome back to the show. Jessica was our second episode ever on this show. So remind our listeners, you literally just given your victim impact

statement for Allison X trial. And then you came literally to our studio. Yeah, it was like the first day back. It was just such a crazy moment in my all-white get up, walking through the courtroom, paparazzi, saying my piece, seeing Allison. And then also just a great sense of relief, too, like a huge energy channeling that energy. And then kind of a liberation to a certain degree. And I'm walking away and be like, figure it out, jury. Then she did get sentenced. Tell us about what was going on for you during that time when you started to hear about all the sentencing. I mean, I had my own feelings of what I thought would be more of a vindication. And there are things with the law and stipulations and other factors that influenced that. But I was just glad that.

something had been done. Well, it's interesting because a lot of victims of cults don't ever get any of that vindication or their leader never gets in, quote, unquote, legal trouble because you can't really prove all of the sexual abuse or all of the emotional or spiritual or psychological abuse in a court of law. And how did you handle it in terms of, like, your healing? Well, for a long time, I was a Jane Doe, and I prioritized my protection. of self, energetically, emotionally, and I still had to pay bills, create a life, figure out myself, but until really the documentary series where I'm on camera telling my story and all my

trauma and a true crime streaming service, that's really where the deepest parts of my own pain and trauma really got dismantled so it could heal. And like, yes, I was a part of this crazy thing, but it's interesting because when you're so close to it, you kind of don't realize, or at least in my experience, until someone else would talk about it. And then I'd see the look on their face like, oh my God, that's crazy. You obviously then were approached to be on a television show.

So basically there had been a few different production companies that wanted to share my story, and it was really important that whoever was going to be the ones that share it really cared. and one of the executive producers was able to have some funds go towards therapy for the people that were on the show. And so to me, I'm like, okay, they're caring about the people.

I said, yeah, I'm ready to just let it go. We shot for three days, although there's only so much footage of the three days that made it. It was very humbling because even prior to joining Nexium, I was acting and modeling and doing my very L.A. more superficial kind of life,

but my heart always yearn to do something to help people. Obviously, just didn't expect it to be joining Colt and taking it down. But there are real repercussions when you choose to go public. On the last day of shooting, I remember about to lay down and go to sleep. And I went, what did I just do? because sharing your personal stories that are not the cutest stories out there and there was one day of shooting

where it was six hours of interview, six hours going into the deepest parts of it and it was very emotional and very vulnerable and as much healing as I've done and as brave and courageous as I am, it really just showed me also how vulnerable and how sensitive and how rough that actually was.

And I think that during the process, I had to be so strong and warrior woman, because how do you survive something like that without having that kind of strength, which I'm really grateful that I possess? And also, it's like, oh, no, this really hurt, actually. And after I shot it, I ended up having one of the worst, like, tower moments like just really rough go where I had a whole eczema outbreak of my skin and on my face for like three months. I like couldn't really leave my room. I would have to go to work and then I would

cry in the bathroom and I couldn't sleep. The insomnia was so bad that I started taking these indica tablets just to sleep and itchy and it was just so rough. And I remember I was like laying in bed and I was just having a moment and praying and I'm not religious. I have my connection with my higher self with creator. I'm on my knees crying, praying to God. Just like why? Like take me now. You don't want to help the humans anymore. I'm fucking over it. This is too much. I don't want to do this anymore. I really just wanted to not exist. It was just unbearable by sharing my story in such a way where strangers can just watch my pain. It put so much light into these shadows where I couldn't run away.

It's like, oh, I can't hide from myself. You know, you want to hide things, right? Like your emotions, your pain, your trauma. But this is like I could not hide anymore. All I'm seeing is like a snake shedding its skin. Which is funny because I am an earth snake in Teddy's zodiac. Oh, really? Yeah.

That's the image that you are literally like shedding that. protective layer, right? That armor. You're talking about having to be so strong to be the girl, to work with the FBI, to take down the bad guys. You're putting on your superhero cape. Yeah. And I think I even, I feel like I mentioned this in the podcast where after I did the victim impact statement, I had to go back to regular life after doing something so crazy, how I felt like I was a bunny rabbit who had a piece of their fur ripped off and it's like bloody. And I had to put a faux fur on top of it to just like carry on. So this was like, oh, there's no faux fur this time.

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There was a lot more victims. Mm-hmm. What does that tell you? What is your takeaway from that? You know, I think that everyone deals with trauma and they're healing in their own way and in their own timing. And I know I have like some friends that were involved and they just chose that they wanted to just move on with their life.

And that's understandable. And it's just my journey is to be a truth teller. When I see something, I say something. Remind our listeners who haven't listened to your episodes if you haven't listened right now and then come back. She was our third episode. There's a great two-parter. Remind people what you did who don't know.

So basically, Allison was getting sentenced, and people had the opportunity to share a victim impact statement before the judge and the council basically made the ruling on the amount of time that she would be sentenced. I didn't have any money. I was using unemployment, flew to New York, and gave my victim impact statement in person. And I said that Allison was the Glazane Maxwell to Keith's Jeffrey Epstein. There were many words that were said, and I just wanted to share my voice as someone who was deeply impacted to have that be considered in the sentencing. And you were staring at her, correct? Yes.

Yes. And you watched her eyes just. It was just lost over. I feel like she was trying to listen, but it's just I think that different people that have a severe, they're not even just trauma, but whatever their psychopathy, is, whether it's, you know, narcissism, sociopath, psychopath, there are just certain elements of empathy or presence that isn't there or rooted. I just want to make sure you're okay talking about nexium again today.

So I just want to check in with you. Thank you. I really appreciate that consideration. And yeah, I don't mind talking about it because I think I've now really let it go. This whole year has just been crazy. It's been so intense, and I'm used to intensity, but I think I'm more used to intensity of fighting something and wariering up, which I'm really good at. But this new level of intensity is how do I surrender?

How do I let go? How do I allow my vulnerability and the truth and really feeling all the things I didn't have space to feel that because I had to just keep going? We're really good at doing what needs to be done. In compartmental. To survive. Yeah. You can't just live in your trauma every single moment of every single day.

So once you start to allow yourself to look at things in a new way and let down that armor, that can be very intense. Yeah, it really started to unravel in such a deep way, especially my relationship with my parents, which already was pretty non-existent. But, you know, I actually sat in this ayahuasca ceremony and then a month later, I realized that my dad was a narcissist. And prior to even the book and sharing the things about nexium, he was never supportive of me and also very much tried to shame me for wanting to share my story because it then led to his truth being exposed from like being a drug dealer and like these things that happen. and although I've forgiven him for that and I understand the many nuances of why he chose those things but my whole thing is I live authentically and I just, I have to live in my truth

because I will like literally feel sick. And so there was a lot of inner turmoil with my family with me being public about these things, you know, and even with the episode like talking about sexual abuse because that whole thing with Nexium too with Allison giving me that special assignment. And so all of these things, like Nexium is just like a sliver of what came up.

I had to start to go back into all of these spaces and realize how abused I was in my life. Like not just going through parents being drug dealers, SWAT team coming to the house, all these things that occurred in like that. Like my little Jessica was just trying, to survive. And so I've actually been doing a lot of inner child shadow work, which has been totally new. I didn't even know that was a thing until I've been experiencing it and learning

softness and not being in the warrior, but actually, how can I hold this? Because I didn't have parents to hold me, because I didn't have a dad that protected me and nurtured me and actually was really emotionally abusive to me. And I just didn't realize it because in my culture and like Filipino and Asian culture, it's like respect and these conditionings and don't say anything and all these protective, repressive systems. And so it's like, oh no, this is not for me. I don't deserve that. And then cut to today, your abuser and nexium gets out of jail. Do you find out about it? Are you tracking it? What's going on with you at this time? I mean, I honestly don't track any of this stuff. Usually it just comes through a friend sends me something and like, oh, crazy. And,

you know, then I'll like look up an article because someone sent it to me. And, you know, I try not to get overly involved in it. But yeah, it can be re-triggering because I'm so wanting justice and wanting people to learn. And also it's not my monkey, not my circus. She's been talking now or she did a podcast. Yes, I've heard. And we interviewed the reporter who sat with Alison for, I don't know how long. She did an eight-part series on her post-jail telling her story. What are your thoughts about that? You know, I think like myself and any human being, you're going to try to move forward in the best way that supports your life. and however one chooses and their level of integrity is their own business. I didn't listen to it. I have no desire to listen to it. I have a pretty good intuitive sense from what I've been told. And, you know, I feel like, look, I will never try to stop someone's

ability to change and grow and redeem themselves, not through just saying a podcast, and saying I did such and such. But if someone truly has felt and learned their responsibility and the pain that they've caused and really has had an awakening, like if they can change and then be a voice being on the other side, I think that's very valuable. Is she doing that?

I don't know. Is she helping other victims or other people and doing it in a way that's not. profiting her, and that's not just to make her look a certain way, but is doing that with the purity of her heart and a level of integrity to serve people that have been hurt through these things? I don't know. And I think that it's too early to say, and that trust and accountability is you witness that over time. Talk is cheap. It's in people's actions. And at the end of the day that's just, it's not my burden to carry. And I don't really care. So for me,

I've had immense pain, so much betrayal, but I made a choice. And it doesn't mean that I've been perfect and that I didn't have my own skeletons, but I've also chosen to heal and look at these things and then use my story and my experiences to help other people, to inspire them, to show them that it's possible, and to just be that. So that's all I really care about at the end of the day. Because if I can do it, someone else can do it. It's not that I'm special or more important. I just happen to accidentally join Nicole and can talk about this right now.

Do you mind if we dive in a little bit more into Allison's podcast? Yeah, we can touch on that. New Year, same me, same me, guys. And I'm not really a resolution person, but I would like my 2026 to be less stressful. And thank you to In the Cloud, gummies for helping me achieve my goals. What is in the cloud? You ask? In the cloud is your fully legal

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but the reason why we had the reporter on, because obviously I had hesitations. I was like, I don't want a platform an abuser. I don't want a platform somebody who I have a lot of very personal feelings about. And then I spoke to the reporter and she also felt the same way going in to talking to Alison. And it was more or less like not a discussion about is she a monster. or not, but more like, how does one become a monster? And then where does empathy, sympathy, forgiveness fit into all of that? And one thing I wanted to ask you was, because this is what I've grappled with, like this idea of like indoctrination versus choice. I know what it's like to be indoctrinated. Like I was in this thing and I was a believer, for sure. And I think a part of me always

knew something's fucking off here. Your intuition felt it. Yeah. But I trusted the people. I loved the people that I was in this with. I always saw her though. Well, I didn't always see it, but I started to see the reality of who she really was. And I

really struggled with that. And you know what cults do is they justify and they tell you, okay, well don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you know? And then you get into this cognitive dissonance of, well, if everybody else seems to think it's quote unquote, okay, then I guess I will just watch it and allow it and not speak up, et cetera.

And there's versions of that. But with Allison, I just never understood personally how you really go to that next place, how you actually do what she did. So do you have a feeling about indoctrination versus choice? Is there a line in the sand between the two? I think there's definitely a line in the sand. I think that there are different kinds of psychopathy that allow for this. If you're witnessing something that you know is not good and you're just going along with

it, you're making a conscious choice. It takes a lot to have courage to stand up for what's right. But we've been in a society that values silence to let the perpetration of evil continue. I mean, while one can be indoctrinated and that's totally true. And like you have soldiers and stuff that are conditioned getting brainwashed or your M.K. Ultrad to like do these things that you wouldn't do. But part of why that happens is because they break your humanity. So if you can break someone's humanity, then they can do things that are inhumane. So do you think he broke her humanity? I think that her humanity was probably already broken. I think being a child star and living a lifestyle that's already abnormal, it can be really difficult because you don't really have a sense of self.

And from what I know from my experience with her, the narcissism, the wanting to do good, sometimes a lot of people say they want to do good. That's why you have all these like cults trying to spread love and light. But really it's just a mechanism to have another way to feed their ego and then have control. and have adoring fans, followers, I'm the guru. So that's feeding the part that needs that versus actually being of service. Yeah, it's so interesting because she clearly has a lot of trauma, a lot of childhood trauma, a lot of, there's sexual childhood trauma.

And the one thing that sort of stuck out to me that I didn't quite, I don't know, gather was how Keith weaponized her sexual trauma. he was actually coercing her into rape in the name of healing and she actually believed it was healing and he was doing this for two years the starvation the lack of sleep the sexual abuse like she she was stripped of everything

and then also on the podcast admits that she enjoyed the power she had over these beautiful young women that she put it so what what are we meant to do with somebody like that? Are we meant to have empathy for her? I don't have the answer, you know? Yeah, it's really conundrum.

In the podcast, she talks about how, when she was in the court, and she was having this out-of-body experience the whole time. And she said, and there's people on the stand or person I'm sitting there and telling me about what I did. And I was like, yep, I know her. That was you. Yes, that was me. And she said something that was going through her mind at the time.

And I'm going to tell you what she said. But I want you to guess. I'm so curious what was going on through her mind because it was really blank. So I'm so curious. She said, I just kept thinking my mom and my brother are hearing this because they were sitting behind her. And she started to cry and I just was thinking,

oh my God, my mom and my brother hearing all these horrible things about me. It's not what I would expect her to say. I mean, for a narcissist, that makes sense. Because it's about her image. Because it's about her image. It's not about like, wow, what did I do? What did I do?

I can't believe I did that. I can't believe I hurt this person who I pretended to care about and knew all these vulnerable, deep things like I'm caring about myself and how I look to these people that are probably my only like real support and survival.

Right. That's so crazy. Right? But it's like, look at the lack of accountability. Yeah. Like, but that's so telling right there. She's telling on herself right there. And then when she cries later is when,

you know, because she is out of the cult and she calls it a cult. I think she's fully still deprogramming from the cult. But she at least knows she was indoctrinated. What she did was bad. Keith bad.

Next time I'm not so good, bad. But curious your thoughts on this. The other time she was sort of crying was that Keith's sentencing and when it finally downloaded for her all of the terrible things he had done and that it wasn't at all what she thought. It wasn't sexual healing

and empowerment for women. And then she started to cry and she basically said, then I said to myself, if that's true, then what does that mean for what I did? Then I have to also admit what I did was not okay, not good. Yeah, definitely not good. So what are your thoughts on that?

I mean, I'm at least glad to hear that she's having some reflective thoughts and taking in the information to have some self-inquiry. Like, look, everyone is at their own journey and in their own pace. and their own level of awareness. And like I said, I'm not really invested in what her experience is. Like, I'm a person that believes in forgiveness and growth and evolution because I know I'm not perfect. And I have had my own experiences of not being the best version of myself and being human.

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I can see all of his trauma. I don't know if that means I have to forgive him. Well, I think forgiveness is like a personal choice, at least from my experience with like the massive amounts of betrayal that I've had in my life, I think forgiveness is for me. I can understand why things happen, but the forgiveness isn't for them, it's for me, because I don't want to carry the pain or the weight of that anymore. So if I can forgive them and just do that for myself, it's not mine anymore. That's why with the Allison situation and where I've been quoted in Rolling Stone and different

things, where I mean it, I have forgiven her. But do you think you know? need forgiveness to get there because I get it. I get like let go move on. Godspeed. Like I will no longer let you and your abuse take any hold of my body and my being. But do you need forgiveness to get to that place? Can it just be? I see you. I see what I did. I don't have any charge when I think of you. I'm neutral. But do you need to actually forgive them? The thing that I was hearing was resentment is a hell of a drug. But it's the opposite of resentment, forgiveness. Can it just be like, you're broken?

I see your broken self. My colt later, for instance. I don't have that resentment against her and more, but I see her. I see her as the broken little girl that she is. Same with my ex. So would you say that's like compassion? What would you call your relationship to that?

Like if you were to name it where you're at with that? Yeah, I think it's more about empathy. Compassion and empathy. but not necessarily forgiveness because to me forgiveness requires something like in a relationship your boyfriend husband does something you don't like and he hurt your feelings you don't just forgive him unless he does something to earn that forgiveness says sorry Edmitt's fault explains this is what's going on for me that forgiveness is earned I don't have that with these other people they haven't earned my quote unquote forgiveness. So I just think forgiveness is an interesting word. I think it's the

word and that's the perception around the word. Because like I don't believe in I'm sorry's. I believe in change behavior. So that's kind of like the forgiveness thing. So for me, at least in my journey and my experience and where I want to be emotionally energetically is that I don't want to harbor anything. So for me, forgiveness is not, I let you back in. in like I don't necessarily believe to forgive someone doesn't mean that I believe that they're not going to do harm anymore or they're not capable of horrible things. For me when I use the word forgiveness is like I'm healing this part of myself of where something happened to me. I understand why and I'm choosing to remove that so I'm not carrying this hot stone of pain or anger or like

I'm just choosing to let it go. I'm putting it back into the ocean even with my mom who is still using drugs, right? I had to forgive her because it was painting me so deeply in a way that I couldn't continue to elevate. So how did you get there specifically with Allison? Because she was the one that harmed you the most. How did you get to that version of forgiveness for her? Because I did that work with my mother, doing that with Allison was something that I could do. I had to feel the rage. I had to feel the anger. I had to cry. I had to like, how could you do this? like I can't believe you and then like the no accountability and the like seeing that she didn't really care because even before the court happened she already showed me that she really didn't give a fuck. What I care about is having accountability where she's not going to do that to anybody else and hopefully has some deep self-reflection and maybe some breakthroughs and what accountability looks like to me for that individual is if she actually actually.

devotes maybe not her whole life, but a good portion of her life in time to being of service of riding wrongs and doing it in a way where it's not because she's getting financial gain or just like a PR smooth over. She says her life's dedication is to inmates and the culture of women in jail.

What are your thoughts on that? I mean, if that's really what she's doing, that's great. Like, I'm glad that she's finding a new thing to help people that are, disenfranchised and hurt from a system that is really oppressive. And if she continues to do that, then she is being of service in a way that is helpful. But her journey of her own integrity and her own moral compass and her own real reckoning and doing that inner work, that's on her.

And I don't know what's in her heart. That's her experience. But at least if she's using her energy to put in hours to help these people, that's great. at least she's doing some sort of service. Is there anything she could do to you and others like you who were abused by her in terms of accountability that would be satisfying? I personally don't need anything from her directly because I've already done my own work. And like I said, I think the real accountability is just that she continues to do her own

in her work so she can spend her time helping people that need help. And so the jury is still out. We will see. Only time will tell. Have you brushed elbows with any other weird, culty environments since Nexium? Oh, yeah, all the time. And it's so funny because I just recognize it so well, like the look on their face or just, I just can sense it right away.

They're like some personal development thing and, oh, yeah, da-da-da-da-da. Like, you should come. I'm like, yeah, I'm definitely not going to come. I'm so suss of everyone, honestly. I think that's good, though. I think that's what happens when you leave a call. Discernment. Well, that's the thing.

So here we go, is I had to learn discernment. And nexium was that for me in a big way because my heart is so big and it's so open. And especially I have a soft spot for people that have gone through, you know, certain traumas or had dysfunctional family and where I was allowing myself to be too open and allowing all these energies to be in my life or I'm like caretaking or like people pleasing or just wanting to mother everybody and then where that's leaving me depleted and exhausted and then so with nexium I want to heal I want to do these things again they have the dolly llama co-signing this so that was like brilliant but afterwards it really helped me understand

understand that when you are a good person and you have a kind, genuine heart, you have to be way more vigilant because a lot of times we're operating from how you would be. Like, oh, I'm a good person. I want the best thing for this person. So I'm going to do that. But most people, unfortunately, they are not operating that way. So I think it's super important to trust your intuition, trust your gut. Don't listen to what someone's saying, see how they behave. And if someone says that they have the answer, this is the answer, they definitely don't. Run. Yes. So yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to share today that is top of mind? I've reclaimed my full name because I just used to go by Jessica Joan for acting. But my actual

first name is Jessica hyphen Joan. And then my full name, Jessica Joan, Katyn Salazar. And I would wanted to reclaim that as a part of my own decolonization work and claiming all of my ancestry and being Filipino, I have the blood of the colonized and the colonizer and learning and growing and just showing up the best way I can. Tell us where to find you if you want anybody to find you on the internet or promote whatever you would like. Well, I'm really proud of my new website. It took me 10 years to make. The website is this is jessicajone.com.

On Instagram, it's the siren and the sunflower. Same thing for TikTok. If you really want to see me unhinged to get to know me. And I have a book on Amazon that is available, the untouchable Jessica Joan,

the downfall of nexium. And then the episode of How I Escape My Cult, Episode 8 on Hulu or Freeform. And then the other podcast because they're pretty funny, the ones that I did Liz. Oh yeah. And you guys should start with those. I would say. Start there. Get to know her and then

come for the catch up. Yeah. Thank you so much. But thank you for creating a space that feels so safe and with your own ability to be so honest and authentic and funny and hilarious and raw to help allow me to also be that in this space. So thank you. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. That's it. All right. That's all folks. and that is all folks and thank you again jessica i appreciate you taking the time and sharing honestly and openly as you always do now whether alison will ever fully face the pain she caused is something only time will reveal it may be that confronting that kind of truth really seeing the pain is more than some people are able or willing to do in one lifetime.

But my takeaway is this. You don't actually need someone else's awakening or reckoning to heal from the pain that they caused you. You may have lived and died by their permission once, but guess what? You don't need it anymore. Whether they grow or don't, whether they take accountability or never do, whether you get vindication or don't, it actually doesn't matter. because you are finally free.

And that is the real win. We'll see you all next week. Wasayna Cult is written, produced, hosted by me Liz Aikuzzi and Tyler Meissom, an audio, sound design, and mix by the wonderful and lovely Rob Pera. Thank you all again. Again, here's to 2026. of free movies and TV shows

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