Was I In A Cult? - The Cult Guru: “How to Save The World w/ Dr. Steven Hassan”

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

WE NEED YOUR INPUT!! We’re launching a new membership on Patreon and want to know… If you were to support this membership, what content do YOU crave more of? Please head to THIS LINK and GIVE US YOUR THOUGHTS!: https://forms.gle/9M8TSjfBvpNHKbxD6 TODAY’S EPISODE: A former Moonie, Dr. Hassan has spent the last 45 years helping thousands break free from cults and cult-like environments. He is is America's leading cult expert and the author of several groundbreaking books that have become invaluable resources for those seeking to understand and recover from the trauma of cult involvement. These critically acclaimed books, including “Combating Cult Mind Control,” “Freedom of Mind,” and “The Cult of Trump,” have shed light on the psychological, social, and emotional aspects of undue influence, while providing practical tools for healing and recovery. Visit freedomofmind.com (http://freedomofmind.com/) for more information about Dr. Hassan's recovery and intervention services, and his offering of both general and professional Continuing Education courses on cults and mind control. LINKS: FIND DR. Steven Hassan: freedomofmind.com Follow us: Instagram @wasiinacult Give us your thoughts! https://forms.gle/9M8TSjfBvpNHKbxD6 Support Us: https://www.patreon.com/wasiinacult Have a story to share on our show? Email us: [e-mail]

Views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. I just recently did a thing Liz on the Barbie movie. And when I watched it, I'm like, the storyline is someone's born in a cult and gets the programmed and has to figure out who they are. It's a freaking ex I'm Tyler Mesa. And I'm Liz Ayakuzi. And before we get into it today, we need you, our listeners help.

Yes, guys, we are planning to launch a new membership on Patreon with exclusive content. This is your chance to be part of the inner circle with behind-the-scenes content. Yeah, of stuff like Tyler remembering to feed his cat. We're telling you, you're not going to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their todayexxxe.e. theoeckeckeckecklea. the his cat. We're telling you, you're not going to want to be left out of this. We do have some ideas for your membership, but before we make some very, very important decisions, we do need your input. Yes. We want to know, if you are part of this membership, what are you guys dying to have more of? What are you guys dying to have more of? thi- to to to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, what are to thi, what are to thi, what are thi, thi, to thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be thi, thi, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be tho, tho, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. to be thi. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be cult related, it could be not cult related. Or what do you want less of? For example, LIS. So to get that information, we have created a survey for you to fill out. Now the only way this works you guys is if you actually go to the link in the show notes, you see it, it's right there, it's at the top of the show notes, click on it and fill it out and it should be th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. to, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be, to be, to, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. the. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. to, to te. te. te. t the top of the show notes. Click on it. And fill it out and it should be quite fun.

Yeah, we encourage you to fill it out anywhere, anytime, except for when you're driving or possibly in the shower. We do work hard to make this show, don't we, Rob? Honestly, with the advancements in AI technology, I kind of just press a button and prompt it to just put spooky music underneath. okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, well the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi, th, thi, thi, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, the thi, the thi, the the thi, thi. thi. thi. thee. the. the thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. toea. toea. to thi. thi. to, to just put spooky music underneath. Okay, well we work hard at it. No, but honestly, guys, the link will be available on our Instagram. We really do appreciate you taking the time to just fill it out, let us know what you're done to hear. Can we get to the episode? Yeah, sure. Okay, let's get to the episode.

Let's get to today's episode. Take out your night. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. Okay. So for any new listener on the show, we give those who have been in cults or cultic environments a chance to tell their story and take their power back. Yes, even though we deal with cults and cults are obviously shitty. We don't focus on the doom and gloom or the victim angle. Yeah, the truth is anyone can fall for a cult. And on this show we reveal exactly how that is true. And there is a big sti thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu- thu thu tho- thu, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thin, thin, thin, thi-n, thin, thin, thi-n, thr-a-n'-a-n'-a-a-n'-a-a-yyuuuuuu. tooooooooooooooo'-a-n a big stigma around those who fall into cults, you know, it's filled with false stereotypes like those in cults are weak, stupid, insane, have no original thoughts or lazy. Yeah, when in fact it's

contrary to popular belief, people with a higher education are more likely to join cults than those with less education. But you know, instead of having Liz an I babel on about this, we thou-wee th. th. th. th. th. tho tho tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi. thii. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thii. thi, and thi, thi, you know, instead of having Liz and I babble on about this, we thought we would bring in an expert in the field who was far more qualified than we to discuss all things cult. And that expert would be the incredible Dr. Stephen Hasson. Dr. Hasson is a cult and deradicalization expert. He is a mental health professional and expert in undue influence tactics used by authoritarian leaders and destructive cult cult. See the truth is Steve is a bit of a legend around the was I and a cult part. If you recall there's a book that many of our guests reference on their

post cult journey. Well guess who wrote that book? I check out the book Combating Cult mind control. I read Combating Cult mind Control. I'd ordered this book, Combating Cult, Mind Control. This book by Steve Hansen, Combating Cult Light Controls. I read that cover to cover that night. It's a story about Steve Hassen, hell he'd been indoctinated. I studied Stephen Hasson's bite model. It was mind opening.

Dr. Hasson holds a master's degree in counseling psychology from Cambridge College and a doctorate in organizational development and change from fielding graduate university school of leadership studies. And he himself was in a cult as a young adult. So if anything, he can prove that people who wind up in cults are not dumbasses. His resume is quite impressive and all the ways to find him are in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many of our guests reference your book in their healing process. So you have obviously done incredible work and we're so grateful to have the little bit of time we do with you today.

Yeah, it's my pleasure and just to tell your listeners if it wasn't from my family rescuing me after near fatal van crash. I wouldn't have written the book 12 years later and helped hundreds of thousands of people to go, I know the Mooney's are a cult, but you're describing my group. What is going on here? So to that end, why don't you just introduce yourself however you'd like to introduce yourself? I'm a licensed mental health counselor, author of four books, combating cult mind control, freedom of mind,

releasing the bonds and the cult of Trump. Okay, we don't talk politics on the show because that is not what our show is about. Colts come in all shapes, sizes and forms. In all variations, you have religious cults, self-help cults, doomsday cults, sex cults. Yeah, and yes, there are political cults as well. The now defunct Democratic Workers Party, for example. Yeah, so if the title of Stephen's book offends you,

look, don't throw the baby out with the bath water and th and to, and to, Because there are great stories ahead guys and great advice about mind control and Korean siops and even a bit about T. Swift. Taylor Swift? Wow, I'll stick around for that. So sit back, get on your bathers and join us as we deep dive into all things cult. Can you share your experience of how old you were when you got into the Moonies? Yeah, I was a 19-year- old punk. I was an extra honor student. I skipped eighth grade. I was in college at age 17 writing poetry, reading books, two to three books a week. I was a introverted nerd, believe it or not. I played basketball, worked in my father's hardware store later, I became

a banquet waiter at the Holiday Inn in Hempstead, Long Island while I was going to college. He attended Queens College in New York. Go nights. How's my New York accent everybody? Parvon. Park the cat, that's Boston. I was not a joiner. Groups did not interest me, zero, but I loved girls and I loved sex because I was 19. And my girlfriend abruptly dumped me and I was sitting at the cafeteria of Queens College and three women flirted with me

and asked to sit at my table and they represented themselves as students. They were not. I remember asking, you part of a religious group? And they said, oh, no, not at all. We're just trying to combat crime and poverty and ecological problems, and we're students, and don't you want to make the world a better place? And of course, I'm Jewish, I want a Tiku to lukeunumumumumumumumumumumumumum and the world and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the world, and the you want to make the world a better place? And of course, I'm Jewish. I want a Ticun alum and fix the world.

But you know, you don't know what you don't know. So I was invited to a dinner to meet friends. Then one of their friends just happened to be giving a talk, a guy from Holland. I'm sitting in this lecture hall and other people are around me and they're all falling asleep and I'm like looking around and so I, you know, I listened to the talk afterward I said, what's up with everybody they're like falling asleep. And the lecturer could have said, well, we're all sleep deprived, which was the fact, but what he said is, well,

there's a spiritual explanation for this, but you wouldn't believe it. So I don't want to tell you, which of course makes you more curious. And I'm like, okay, well, what is it? And then he said, well, the teaching is so powerful and important that there are invisible entities that don't want people to hear it. And in retrospect, I should have said, I'm out of here, invisible spirits. I'm Jewish, not interested. Don't believe in demons and spirits, etc. Thank you very much.

I'm out of here. I didn't. And they invited me back a second night night and I wanted to meet some chicks. I wasn't interested in, you know, saving the world. The second night I decided I'm done, I'm not coming back. And I walked out to my car and snowing and it's cold. And everybody follows me out to the car and surrounds the car and says, we're not letting you go until you promise to come back tomorrow night.

We need to know you better. Like everybody was so nice and loving and kind and smiling and everybody was together. And it was like, this is weird, off the chart weird. There were warning signs but I didn't act on them. But that's not cult specific. There are things in life we can all look back on and say, well I I missed that warning sign. Like your lactose problem? Perhaps. The biggest one that I regret not acting on, they were telling me, we're going away this weekend, it's going to be so great, you should really come with us, it's going to be so much

fun and I'm like, I work. I was working as a banker waiter every weekend, weddings, bar mitzvahs, special functions, etc. and I'm like, I can't go. Sorry. And they're like, yeah, but you're going to really miss something. Listen to me, I'm telling you, I'm not available, sorry. And I eventually said, listen, if I don't have to work some weekend, I'll go. That was my last fateful words. Two days later, I call up my boss as usual. He said, you won't believe it, but the wedding was canceled. Take the weekend off. And so I was like, this is bizarre.

It's never happened before. These people are asking me to go away. Maybe I should just go away and see what's new to happen. So I say, OK, miracles happened. I don't have to work. Oh, great, come to take the van. I didn't take my car. That was a mistake. And this was 74, no cell phones. Long drive and no cell phone? And no walkman's either, Tyler. Speaking of walkmans, did you know that the first walkman was introduced in 1979 by Sony. How is my Tyler impression?

It's decent. There's a sense of arrogance that you're missing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, to work on it. Speaking of walkmans, actually, actually. Actually. The first man to ever walk. We're driving up to Tarrytown into this multi-million dollar estate. And as we pass through the gates, the guy at the front the front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front front the front the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the gates, the guy at the front of the van said, oh, we're having

a joint workshop with the unification church. And I went, excuse me, I thought this wasn't religious, and what's this about a workshop? I thought we were having fun. And they did the typical cult manipulation, turn it around on you. Oh, do you have a the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. The thi, thi, thri, thri, thri, thri, thi, thri, thi, thi, thi, tho- tho- tho- tho. tho. tho. tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, than, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thro throoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ty ty the the the, ty they did the typical cult manipulation, turn it around on you. Oh, do you have a problem with people who are Christian, Steve? So now I'm defensive. Are you not open to learning new things?

And what I should have said is, I was lied to, let me out of the van. I will hitchhike in the cold, in the snow, in the dark, but let me the hell out of here. But I made a big stink. They said, well, we're not going back tonight, but we'll drive you back in the morning. And guess what? The van had left with a time I got up in the morning and it was just one thing after another after that and two and a half weeks later I'm starting to believe the Messiah is on the earth and World War III is going to happen and God has chosen me for an incredible mission to save the world. So for any listeners

never heard of the Moonies, can you share what exactly this group was? Well sure, so Sunyung Moon claimed to be the Messiah, said Jesus came to him when he was 16 and told him that he had failed his mission and Moon was going to take over and Moon was going to make a pure woman and have sinless children and purify the world. We'd all speak Korean. And it was a political religious cult.

Moon said in 74 to us that democracy was satanic, and God wants a theocracy to rule the world, how we're going to infiltrate Congress, how we're going to change the Constitution, and a lot of people don't understand if you're eating sushi, it's probably distributed by the Mooney's. The Washington Times, that's a Mooney entity. They're the ones behind client science denial. The Mooney's paid Trump $2 million to endorse them virtually a few weeks after January 6. They don't know the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi thoanc. thoanc. thi thi constitution thoanc. thoanc. thoanc. thoom-c. thoom-c, thoom-c. thoom. the constitution constitution constitution constitution the constitution the constitution thi thi thi thi thi th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi. tho. toe conc. toe. toe million to endorse them virtually a few weeks after January 6th. They don't know the two sons of Sun Mung Moon. One has an AR-15 gun factory, the other one has a gun cult and wears a crown of

golden AR-15 bullets and calls himself king and they have two training compounds where they're teaching people to have civil war in the streets. This is my former cult. People need to know this danger. But they aren't the only one of their kind. But they are the OGs. That's also known as original gangster and in 1940... You're actually getting there. I like it.

I like being a man and Tyler. Yeah. Great, they're not exclusive. They're together. Those things are the same, by the way. So the Moonies were kind of the granddaddy of Korean cults and there's a whole slew of cults that either the leaders were Moonies and they left and they started their own cults. We don't have time to do a really long thing of this but the dirty secret is

what I learned after I got out of the Moonies and became a whistleblower for a congressional subcommittee investigation looking into Korean CIA activities in the Mooney's and became a whistleblower for a congressional subcommittee investigation looking into Korean CIA activities in the US. The dirty little secret is that the CIA needed in their mind to counter North Korean brainwashing. There had been two unsuccessful coups in South Korea. And so they helped South Korean dictatorship set up a CIA and they chose the Mooney's as a proxy group to do brainwashing of dissidents of the dictatorship. And that was called Victory over Communism and it was a SIOP. People have heard of MK Ultra. Well this is MK Ultra, well this is

MK Ultra 2.0 of how to implement massive brainwashing for political reasons using a religious front group. And when Americans were pressuring the government to leave the Vietnam War, these geniuses, air quotes, said, let's bring the Mooney's to the US and set up shop on college campuses to counter the anti-Vietnam war movement and that's when I was recruited. February of 1974. The same month Patty Hearst was abducted by the left-wing Simbianese liberation army and so the CIA doesn't want to say yes we do mind control using proxy groups for political

reasons. Iran doesn't say, yes, we use proxy groups and we brainwash people to do terrorism, but that's what's happening here. This is not just organic people just realizing, yeah, let's get some missiles and shoot up ships, you know, in the Red Sea or something. This is, these are state actors. And my solution is just the public just has to understand that SIOPs is happening rampantly through social media and the digital world, and we need to understand how to protect ourselves,

who are the bad actors, and do everything in our power to vote and keep democracy and democratic institutions happening in the United States. Aplazes here, Rob. Bring it on. I feel inspired. Back to Stephen Story. When you were in the Moonies and you finally had your aha moment. Well, you have to understand that Moon said I was the model member. I was so fanatical. I was so brainwashed.

I did insane things, including sleeping three to four hours a night, seven days a week. But I never would have left, had it not been for a near fatal van crash where I woke up driving an 80 miles an hour into the back of a track the trailer truck. And so I was in the hospital away from the cult for two weeks. I was sleeping and eating. It was just me, myself, and I called my sister Thea, the only person in my entire world prior to the Mooney's that didn't accuse me of being brainwashed, didn't say I was an occult.

She always just said, I miss you, I don't understand, I want you in my life. So when I called her and I told her I was in the hospital and needed surgery, she's like, come and visit I'll take care of you, you have a nephew. I want him to know his uncle, she. the the the the the the 'll take care of you. You have a nephew. I want him to know his uncle Stevie. She used the terminology she used from you and has a little kid. And I got my real self. Oh, Stevie and my loving sister. So I made her promise not to tell my parents who were evil because they had said I was an occult. Fortunately, she broke a word. And my father hired a bunch of ex Mooney's to to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do the the to do the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. She. She's their their. She's their. She their. She their. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She the their the the their their. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She the the the the the the the the the th. She's th. She was th. She was th. She was the t. She used the t. She used the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the I was an occult. Fortunately, she broke a word, and my father hired a bunch of ex-moonies to do a deprogramming, a forcible. But in my case, I was lured to my sister's house.

My crutches were taken away. I couldn't really fight or run away. And so the story keeps going from there, but needless to say, I agreed to talk after the second day when my father cried and said, how would I feel if it was my son, who met a group of controversial people and disappeared? How would you feel? And I could see he genuinely believed I was in trouble. And I just said, I'd probably do what you're doing now. And do you want? He said I just want you to listen with an open mind and if you'd want to go back we'll drive you but at least we'll be able to sleep at night knowing we did the responsible thing so it became

voluntary and I wanted to prove I wasn't an occult and brainwashed. So days later I'm learning about Robert J. Lifton's eight criteria, thought reform in the psychology of totalism. They all fit the monies. That was a point of dissonance, because we were God and they were Satan. But we all are doing the same eight criteria, brainwashing. But the snapping moment was the next day when they handed me a published speech by the cult,

asking me just simply, what do you think of this? So I'm reading it. Moon was talking to Congressman and Senators saying how surprised he was that anyone could actually believe that a Korean could brainwash an American, and how much he respects Americans and how surprised he is by these accusations and I had heard Moon in person say how filthy Americans minds were and how we needed to be brainwashed by him and I had the first negative thought in two and a half years that he was a liar and as soon as I

thou he's a liar then my mind went if he half years that he was a liar. And as soon as I thought he's a liar, then my mind went, if he's a liar, then he can't be a man of God, because we teach that God is a God of truth. And if he's a liar, that means he's not trustworthy. So if he's not trustworthy, and there's a liar, what have been doing the last two and a half half half half half felt like somebody opened the Venetian blinds and a little sun came in. I felt like I had just stepped off the skyscraper and I was falling and I had no idea where I was going. I cried for hours because it was like someone waking you up from a nightmare going. This isn't real. Everything you've been believing with all your heart and soul is bullshit. And it was hard, very traumatic. And that's the key with my entire approach.

You don't try to persuade people to get out. You ask them questions in a respectful loving way and be patient and encourage them to think about things. And a lot of our listeners have family members that might be in cults and they always say, what do we do? For family members and friends who are watching somebody get radicalized, they need to stop rationalizing and saying, well, they say they're happy and they say they're not an occult, so who am I to try to intrude in their happiness or in what they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they say they say they say they say they say they say they say they say they say thi.a. thiol. they say thiol-a. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I te. I te. te. te. today today today today today today today today tell thae. today tha to try to intrude in their happiness or in what they say they want to do?

And it's like, if you understand what mind control is and you care about the person, it's your obligation to learn how to help them, in my opinion. It's not a one-hour conversation that's going to wake someone up. It's really about taking the time to educate yourself, talk with former members of that group, learn the loaded language, understand to pick a different group than the one they're in. Something that they would agree is bad, like Chinese Communist brainwashing. Oh, sure, I'll talk about them because they're obviously bad. And with cult of Trump people, it's Chinese communist brainwashing? Oh sure, I'll talk about them because they're obviously bad. And with cult of Trump people, it's Chinese communist brainwashing or pimps

and traffickers. They'll talk to you about that because they all think they're going to save children from trafficking. I'm an expert on sex and labor trafficking and the top people use my BIT model to help explain fraud, force, or coercion. The BIT model he is referring to is something Dr. Hasson developed to describe cult-specific methods to recruit and maintain control over people. BIT stands for behavior, information, thought, and emotional control. So you get people understanding what is the model and then you ask them questions. And then you ask them to go back before they ever heard of whatever group it was.

And what were they believing? What were their values? What did they want to do with their life? Like you had told me as we started, you were in an acting cult. If you go back in time when you first were introduced to that person, what did you think you were going to get? Oh yeah. You know, and if you knew then what you know now, would you have ever said yes? Right. Then, okay, it's time to move on, right? People have a dual identity. This is a key that I have to explain to all of my clients, that the

real Stephen was not erased, he was suppressed by the Mooney Steve. So the key is asking questions to the real Steve. So Steve, you used to write poetry, you used to love to read books. What was the last book that you read that you really enjoyed? Well, the answer is the divine principle. The Mooney book? Well, other than that that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi was the was the was the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is the, he thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the is the is the is the is the is theuui theui theui theui theui theui theui was the is the is the is the is the is th you read that you really enjoyed? Well, the answer is the divine principle. The Mooney book. Well, other than that, tell me another book that you liked, a novel or poetry book. I haven't read one since I met the family.

Oh, do you miss it? Who was your favorite poet, Steve? What'd you like about their poetry? A Mooney couldn't answer that. The real me could, right? I think there are many people who would leave if they were approached by their family and friends with warmth and respect.

And so the whole blocking and terminating relationships, that is not productive in terms of helping heal. And I say, love is stronger than mind control. that is not productive in terms of helping heal. And I say, love is stronger than mind control. And if you say to someone, look, you're my sister, I love you, no matter what, I want you in my life, if talking politics is a problem, let's not talk politics, but let's talk about everything else that's important to us,

and build that relationship. Then you can share a documentary about some other group. Hey, I watch this. I'm curious to get your opinion on that. Let's watch it together and you spend the time. They will tell you how to help them get out. Hello, my name is Jackie Schimel. I'm the host of the Bitch Bible Podcast.

If you never listen to the Bitch Bible Podcast, I genuinely feel terrible for you. Because up until this moment, you haven't really been living or experiencing true, untethered, unhinged, morally flexible joy infiltrating your ear canals on a weekly basis. The good news is, there's still time for you, Katie. Buckle up Buttercup, because I'm about to take you on a real bender for pop culture musings, aggressive social commentary, both piping hot and barely lukewarm takes. Plus, charisma for days, make sure you listen to the Bitch Bible podcast, because objectively and unbiasedly, in my very humble opinion, it's the best podcast you will ever listen to.

You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll gafaugh, you'll be appalled. And guess what, Katie, you'll just keep coming back for more. So go listen to the bitch Bible podcast available wherever you get your podcast. Stephen Hassan. And just how did he go from Stephen to Dr. Stephen? I'm now a doctor. I wasn't for most of my 47-year career. I basically got frustrated about 10 years ago and I realized I've been an activist all these years and things are getting worse, not better, and I realize the law is 100 years out of date with understanding the concept of undue influence or brainwashing.

And I got involved with a forensic think tank at Harvard Medical School, and one of the professors said, you need to do a doctorate, and you need to do a quantitative study on your bite model and show that it's scientifically valid. becauseotal qualitative studies don't make it in law. And I'm like, I'm too old, I'm 63. He said, I'm 77. Do you want to change the law? Don't you? So I got my PhD in my second master's in 2020, and I'm out to change the law around the world,

and I based my work on trafficking law, which is acknowledged slavery, fraud, force, a coercion. So I'm very happy and excited about that. And in the meantime, to be honest, Liz, I used to think global climate crisis was number one and undue influence was number two until I read David Lipov's book, The Parrot and the Igloo, and he had a chapter on the Mooney's as the center for climate science denial for 50 years. And then I went, oh, so undue influence is the number one issue because the oil companies and countries have been using disinformation to distract and brainwash people to think there's no crisis. Here we are. With getting your doctorate, what is your end goal?

So there is some coercive control laws which are genderoriented, about abuse of one person to another. There are laws protecting elderly, especially elderly with dementia. The law recognizes if you're a minor, that can be undue influence. But other than that, it's called a slippery slope. So my work shows it's not a slippery slope. If you can control behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions,

create a pseudo-identity that's dependent and obedient to an external authority, it is a dissociative disorder, and the bite model in my influence continuum is a central tool for anyone to understand. Oh, behavior controls, sleep deprivation, privacy deprivation, rigid rules and regulations, punishments, and just you can go through the list, and we can tick them off, and a lot of the worst groups,

the extremist authoritarian cults, which includes Russia and Putin, and it includes China and the cult of Trump is my last book. When you go through all the criteria becomes obvious that this is not healthy. There was no informed consent. There was no encouragement for people to listen to their conscience or their gut, to make independent decisions. You were programmed not to listen to Xtheir conscience or their gut to make independent decisions.

You are programmed not to listen to X members or any critical information. So it's pretty formulaic and what's my end goal? Can I be a little bit idealistic? You can be a lot of bit. Well, I want to save the world because we're going into authoritarianism it looks like around the world and very dangerous malignant narcissists, people who are not understanding. We live on one planet and we need to keep our habitat alive for survival. So I believe the missing sauce in all of the media is, hey, people are walking around thinking

that they're too smart for it to happen to them. Only weak, stupid people would follow a cult leader or give up their free will or believed delusions or conspiracies. What we know from social psychology is most people can be found at vulnerable moments in specific contexts, their minds can get hacked, people can be hypnotized without their permission and their consent and their understanding, and people can be programmed to believe the opposite of what their values and beliefs are and cut off from their family and friends. And in my case I was a poetry major in college. They, they, they, they, they, the moonies. They, they they, they, their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their the opposite of what their values and beliefs are and cut off from their family and friends. And in my case I was a poetry major in college. They, the

Mooney's asked me to throw out 400 original poems that show my commitment to God and I threw out my original poetry and I lived for art. That was my soul and I became a right-wing fascist for two and a half years until I got out and went, what the f-h happened to me? What? What? Sounds like the one time I did meth, you know, the tie? Sounds like the one time I did math, you know, for two whole days, I was a right-wing

fascist. You don't strike me as the meth type, Liz, but you know, you think you know someone. Is it because I have too many teeth? Let's not get on our meth listeners. If you're doing meth, we have a wide meth. Stop doing that. Don't judge people's choices. I lived above a meth creator. Oh, nice.

In Chicago, when I lived there, and it was a duplex. Did it smell weird? And it smelled so fuck every day in our house. It was disgustoid. Wow. So I've probably done meth vicariously through the walls. No just like the nasty chemicals not even like the fun part of it. Yeah exactly. A fun part of math. All the chemicals. None of the paranoia. Really? No. No the The itching. Don't do math. that. It. It. th. th. the th. the the the the the th. the the the the the the the th. the the the the the the the th. the the the the th. th. th. the the the th. th. th. th. th. the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the five. None of the paranoia and then the itching. Don't do math. That's just, we said it in the last episode, we'll say it in this one. You get great abs though. Two set-ups.

Two set-ups. Let me be an academic for a minute and say, the most important social psychology principle is called the fundamental attribution error. What it is, it's an unconscious bias that people have when they're trying to understand other human beings, that they overestimate the individual disposition or personality, and they underestimate the social influence context. So what I do to demonstrate this to my clients and to the public is I show them the Milgram Obedian study, the Zimbardo Prison Study and the Ash conformity study, ASCH conformity study. Okay, there are some very cool studies here, but we can't go into everyone.

But Tyler would like to. Yeah, in my mind I did. He's restraining himself. But if you've ever taken Psych 1-01, you've probably covered these. Yeah, so for example, the Milgram study was held in the 1960s at Yale University. Go Bulldogs. It tested how far people would go in obeying authority figures. Participants were put in one room and they were asked to administer what

they believed were increasingly harmful electric shocks to others who were in another room. This one will be 195 volts. Despite hearing apparent distress from the recipients, almost 65% of the test subjects went up to the full 330-volt shock, or the supposed shock that is. Yeah, the subjects continue to obey orders from a man in a white lab coat who would say things like... It's absolutely essential that you continue.

Continue, please. Let me out of here. Let me out of here. thaugh me. You have no lights me out of here. Slow. Dance. My heart's bothering me. You have no way to see me here. Fortin. Red.

This revealed the power of authority to override personal conscience. That is incorrect. This will be at 3.30. Ah! Oh! The Zimbardo prison experiment, you've heard of this one, yes? Yes. PRISON-PRISM experiment, you've heard of this one, yes? See? Mm-hmm. This simulated a prison environment in 1971 at the University of Stanford. Go cardinal.

Yeah, which is not the bird. It's actually the color cardinal, the deep red, which is why it's singular. Yeah, I knew that. The researcher Philip Zumbardo wanted to study the effects of perceived power dynamics. So participants were randomly assigned rules as either prisoners or guards. And a makeshift prison. And guess what? It escalated quickly. Nice. Eight. Six. Five four, three, two, one. All that all that happened. Hey. On day two, there was a very sharp change in the whole nature of what was happening in that prison.

The prisoners attempting to assert their freedom, their individuality rebelled. They refused to eat, they barricaded themselves in their cells, they started ripping off their numbers, perhaps started screaming out, obscenities at the guards, and the guards are frightened. The guards, not completely certain how to act during this unexpected rebellion, started to remove the beds from one cell. The prisoners were equally uncertain. They still felt the prison was a simulation. The study was originally planned to last two weeks, but ended only after six days. Keep your blanket, fall one safe, you're going to be in that for a while. So just get used to it.

At this point, we had to end the experiment. We had to end the experiment because it no longer was an experiment. We had created a prison in which people were suffering, in which the prisoners were passive, withdrawn, isolated, detached, behaving in pathological ways. Some of the guards were behaving sadistically, brutally, and many of the guards who were not, were helpless to do anything about it, indeed allowed it to go on. Never countermandated order, just were helpless and drawn into this thing. And at that point, we said, enough, we have to end this.

The Ash conformity study was held in the 1950s at Swarthmore College. Go Garnets. It was led by Solomon Ash and put five participants in a room and were asked to match line lengths on a board. The experiment you'll be taking part in today involves the perception of lengths. Your task is a very simple one. You're to look at to look at to look at to look at the line to look at the line to look at to look at the line the line to look the line to look the line the line to look the line line the line line line line line line line line line line line the line line line the the the the the the the line line line line line line, the the the line, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, lengths of lines. Your task is a very simple one. You're to look at the line on the left and determine which of the three lines on the right is equal to it in length. Only one of the people in the group is a real subject.

The others are confederates of the experimenter and have been told to give wrong answers on some of the trials. The first two times the actors chose the correct length. But... On the third trial, something happens. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes and yields to group influence. Ash found subjects went along with the group on 37% of the critical trials. Sometimes we go along with the group because what they say convinces us they are right. This is called informational conformity, but sometimes we conform because we are apprehensive that the group will disapprove if we are deviant. This is called normative conformity. So it's about conformity. Why? Because we're

social creatures. We're not rational. We're emotional, and we don't know everything. So we looked around for like, tell us what's going on here. Ash's experiment is a classic. It reveals how people will deny what they see and submit to group pressure. They show them the very famous social psychology experiment, called the bystander experiment very briefly. If you're walking down the street by yourself and see someone collapse, almost everyone goes to help. But if there are 30 people walking by ignoring and you watch someone go down, very few people

go to help. Why? Because we read the social script. No one else is doing anything. It must not be a big problem. They must have good reasons why they're not. Why should I do it? And again, if we can understand how the mind works and social psychology works, we're going to be much more humble and realize really smart people can get their minds hacked and be taken over. I also think of it as a virus, a mind-control virus, and so people get exposed to a virus, they may leave the cult, but unless they understand what

happened to them, they may go to another cult or they might become phobic and never want to risk a relationship again or risk a group workshop again. And both are maladaptive responses. The best thing is to actually be empowered and go, I value my time, I value my money, and I want to decide. And I don't want to have just a identity of poor me. I really believe former members, we're like the white blood cells, the antibodies of the human species, to say, it's real, happen to me.

And we want to destigmatize for everybody that intelligent, educated, nice people from nice families that can happen to them and that there's life after mind control calls. Okay Liz, you want to hear a cool story? I always do from you, Tyler. Yeah, uh-huh. So there's a small island in the Pacific Ocean and it's called YAP. And for hundreds of years, the villagers of this island, they have used these very large stone discs as currency. And these discs, which are like six foot tall and can weigh as much as a car, they don't

get traded around necessarily, they don't exchange hands. They basically sit in the middle middle thoes the middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle middle the middle middle the middle thoomomomom. thoom. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I's, th. I's, th. I's, th. I's, th. I's, thoes, thi. I'll, thas. I's, tha. I's, tha. I's, tha. I's, tha. tha. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. their. their. their. their. I. their. I. I's, the. I's, te. I's, te. I's, te. I'm, te. I'm, te. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. te owner of the stone can use them to buy things, basically transferring the ownership of the stone to another person. And this is happening today? Still? Still happening. Right. So one time, one of these discs, which is, you know, they're actually made from limestone on an island about 100 miles away. It was being moved to Yap on a bamboo boat, but before it could arrive, a storm hit and the disc went overboard. However, the villagers all agreed that the stone was still currency, could still be used as money, even though it was sitting on the bottom of the sea floor. And does this story have a specific point, Tyler?

I mean, other than being a great story, yes, it has a point. Money is weird. It's strange. It's difficult to understand, regardless of the culture. Especially nowadays when you can sign up for a subscription with your credit card, and watch as it too sinks to the bottom of the ocean floor, metaphorically speaking. Which is why it is necessary to have some help, like rocket money. Rocket money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions,

monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Yep, you know I've actually been using rocket money for months now and I love it. You know, they found a subscription that I had forgotten I had, and they canceled it for me. You're not alone. Nearly 75% of people have subscriptions that they have forgotten about. Rocket money will even try to negotiate and lower your bills. That's pretty badass. They also did that for me, saving to to to to to to to to the to their to their their to their their try to negotiate and lower your bills. That's pretty badass. They also did that for me, saving me at least two stone discs.

For me, rocket money shows me this month's spending compared to last month, so I can see exactly how careless I've been in March compared to February. Which is helpful, especially when you're juggling millions of dollars around like Liz and I. So stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocket money.com slash cult. That's rocket money.com slash cult. The guy that owned the stone or the woman. Do they know who it belongs to or or just whoever bought it in the first place? Should we take a submarine to visit? Yes, and steal the disc? That would be a heist movie right there. How many cults would you say in your

estimation are active in the United States today? There's no good numbers. I can tell you from writing the cult of Trump that the biggest single network of cults is called the new apostolic reformation. And then the overlap is with Christian dominionism. So a lot of the media is falsely reporting that Trump's base are Christian evangelicals, but I know Christian evangelicals, but I know Christian evangelicals, the ones who actually believe in Jesus and know the Bible, and they are like, these people are calling themselves apostles and prophets saying

they can get direct revelations from God, and they're convincing their followers that Satan is going to invade their every thought and possess them a exorcist if they don't they're convincing their followers that Satan is going to invade their every thought and possess them a lot of exorcist if they don't follow the apostle or prophet you know mindlessly and so these apostles said God said trump won the 2020 election so guess what when everyone says there's no evidence that Trump won, they are going, Satan, get out of my mind, Satan. And that's called thought stopping and that's another technique that people are taught. But again, are there

more cults than ever? Let's start going through all the major authoritarian regimes. And we're looking at more than half the planet. China is a billion and a half. And we're looking at 50 million Americans, maybe 70 million, who are believing Trump is a godlike chosen King Cyrus figure. But I think about cults along the entire continuum. So I was recently interviewed, what do you think of Swifties, Steve, cult?

And I'm like, sure, but it's ethical. They're not asking people to stop their thoughts. Not that we know of. If there are any Swifties listening that need our help, blank twice. Tyler's blinking. What, what do you need our help? Blank twice. Tyler's blinking. Tyler. What do you need help with? I'm not.

I am not ashamed to admit. I am not ashamed to admit. I'm not ashamed to admit that. Because I'm a white male. I'm not ashamed to admit I like the Beatles. I don't know. Because I'm not, you're necessarily your Democrat. Am I?

I just recently did a thing Liz on the Barbie movie, which was such a phenomenal success. And when I watched it, I'm like, the storyline is someone's born in a cult and gets deprogrammed and has to figure out who they are. And I haven't seen anyone in the media go, it's a freaking ex-cult member storyline. You're laughing, am I not correct? No, it's brilliant. It's totally the storyline. And to go one step further in all my research,

Adam Curtis did a documentary called The Century of the Self about Edward Bernays. Edward Bernays, known as the father of public relations. Bernays was a nephew of Sigmund Freud and a Cornell graduate. He applied psychological principles to manipulate public opinion and pioneered techniques to shape consumer behavior. He was the first to use celebrities in ads. So we have him to thank for Fabio's, I can't believe it's an Arbada. Nice callback. Season 2, 2, and 3.

I can't believe it's no Bada. Yes, Hoyt Richards. Best friends with Fabio, who is Fabuloso. We interviewed him too. He's on our Patreon. And you can join it and fill out the link. Another callback. Bernays often created perceived needs through advertising including promoting smoking among women by associating cigarettes with feminism. In 1929 he staged a demonstration at the Easter Parade having fashionable young women flaunt their quote torches of freedom. There's nothing says freedom like emphysema. He also promoted lucky strikes by convincing women that the forest green hue of the cigarette

pack was among the most fashionable of colors. Well, I don't know, Tyler. I feel marble reds really match my eyes better. Bernays also worked with politicians, but his main goal was making people money. The whole advertising industry was based on what he learned, which is you don't sell the product, you sell the need for the product. So you want to body shame women, so they need to buy your clothes,

or they need to have your diet supplements or whatever. Joseph Gerbels, yes, that Joseph Gerbels, the minister of propaganda for the Third Reich, became an avid admirer of Bernays, despite the fact that Bernays was Jewish, and Gerbils exploited Bernays' ideas to the fullest extent possible when he created a, quote, fewer cult around Adolf Hitler. And so the whole Barbie's metaphor, an Arroyal level, is about programming from corporations that want to push the beauty myth, right? Yeah, so it's everywhere. What is your feeling about humor and incorporating humor

into the healing process? So your authentic self, your original self loves humor, loves creativity, because you're playing with perspectives, right? But if you're in a mind-control cult, you have blind faith. You don't have multiple perspectives. It's very hard to laugh, other than laugh at ex-members or laugh at enemies. Jokes about that. But once you are out, and there's like realizing this group sucks and I don't want to be part of it, that's one phase. But true healing is a journey of really unpacking and rewiring your brain and reclaiming that

part of you that got co-opted and helping yourself to fully exit. And humor is a fantastic tool. And it's so important, especially in authoritarian times. Comedians are the truth-tellers, as long as they can get away with it. We need to have music and art and dance and creativity. It's the best of being human. And humans are not meant to be online eight hours a day.

Short question. Do you still write poetry? See now you're making me switch gears because I'm in professional mode and I need to have a few poems handy to read. If I had time I'd walk over and read you one of my old poems that I wrote after I left. You do? I can unplug for a second and read you a poem. Give me one second. Let's plug in again. Okay, how about a love poem? Beautiful. Can you feel the tenderness of midnight? My heart nestled in the softness of your body? The palm trees and jewels glowing in your hair? My feeling? My heart? My the the teolum. My the the poems? Welling? My the the poeming. that. that. thi. that. thi. that. that. that. that. thi. thi. that I poems? thi. that I poems? thi. thi. that I poems. that I poems. that I poems. that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I I I the palm trees and jewels glowing in your hair, my feelings a puddle by your feet. What do you think? I love it. I have so many

poems anyway. Okay, last poem. It's called Newton's Unknown Law of Gravity. Yesterday morning, I fell asleep in an orchard and wept trees filled with apples falling. Red hard ones mixed with green sour ones, bouncing on my forehead. Their weight making me feel the strength of pure. mixed with green, sour ones, bouncing on my forehead. Their weight making me feel the strength of pure logic. Words pounding my brain by the bushel, falling on paper. Wow. Oh, thank you. First time I've ever read my poetry on a podcast. So there you go.

It's meant to encourage people to know creativity is the essence of being alive, being human. We couldn't agree more. Thank you, Stephen. That was quite enlightening all around. Yes, fascinating stuff. And he is a great guy. Super smart, of course, but laid back, great sense of humor. It was really fun talking to him. His website is Freedom of Mind.com. And there you can find all the information about his bite model, his influence continuum, and much more all of this is in those ever-important show notes. He also has his own podcast called the Influence Continuum with Dr. Stephen Hasson. That's all for this week. We will be back next

week with a great story of a young man who dreams of becoming a filmmaker one day but gets caught up in a wait, that's me we're talking about, mom, my episode. That's right, you guys, next week. First part of Tyler's story, and we can't wait to share it. And when you're raised to believe that your religion is the only religion, the only keys to the kingdom that can get other people in, you look at people differently. I would look at people the people. I. I. I. I. I. I. I th. I th. I th th th th th th th th th th the only keys to the kingdom that can get other people in. You look at people differently. I would look at people that didn't fight valiantly, and automatically whether I wanted to or not I'd think less of them. And then later, my job

was to convert them. And I spent two years of my life trying to convert people into religion. And if there's one element of cultiness that I lived in, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's being their, it's being their, it's being their their their their their th, it's being thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiolii, it's thi, it's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi people thi thi, it's thi thi thi thi, it's thi their their their their thi their thi thi thi thi thi thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii thi thi thi thi thi to convert people into religion. And if there's one element of cultiness that I lived in, it's being on a Mormon mission. Uh-huh. All right. Again, a friendly reminder to please fill out the survey for what you would like to have on our membership page. Link is directly below in the show notes, guys right there. Click it, it click it fill it out click click click click click it fill it up thank you again for your love and support we'll see you next week was Ina Colt is written produced and hosted by me and me only Tyler reason and not anyone else oh wait me too

Oh yeah this is here I forgot sometimes she's here sound design and mix by AI Robert Parra a sound design and mix by AI. Robert Parra. Sound design and mix by Rob Parra. Artificially intelligent. Studio engineer is Stacey Parra. And our newly minted executive producer, welcome to the was-In-cult team, Mr. Stephen Labram. And our video engineer is Gabby Rap. So wrap it up, bitches. Hold. Hold.

Hold! We're running out of tape. Dogs are barking all over the city. Take out your night. Curify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify. Who's it? Ah ha. Good job. No, that was very, that was a very satisfying ending. Yeah. She faked it, by the way.

As all women have.