Was I In A Cult? - The Cult of Ashtanga Yoga: "No Touching, Guruji!"

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

This week, Liz and Tyler head straight into the sweaty “this-is-definitely-not-a-cult-except-maybe-it-definitely-is” world of Ashtanga yoga. Our guest, Magnolia Zuniga, was one of only 20 women in the world to become a Certified Ashtanga teacher. She spent 22 years inside the system — traveling to India, waking up before the crack of dawn, giving up apartments, and building her entire life around the practice and the man who created it. Then, on her very first day studying with master Pattabhi Jois — the “grandfather” of modern yoga — she witnessed something that shattered everything she thought she knew. What followed was years of confusion, devotion, cognitive dissonance, community pressure, and the slow unraveling of everything she believed Ashtanga Yoga to be.FOLLOW USFor more culty content, nuanced conversations, and uncomfortable truths told with care — follow us on Instagram & TikTok →@wasiinacultFOLLOW MAGNOLIAYouTube: @MagnoliaSezSoInstagram: @magnoliasezsoMagnolia's NewsletterSUPPORT THE SHOWIf you believe in what we’re doing — shining a light on manipulation, coercion, and the messy psychology behind it — please rate, review, and share the podcast.Want to support our work even more so we can keep bringing you more cult-busting content?Join our Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and our eternal gratitude.HAVE A CULTY STORY TO SHARE?We’d love to hear from you.Email us → [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. This episode discusses situations of sexual abuse. Please listen accordingly. To me, it's mostly about documentation. It's about people when they look at a schedule and they see a stanga, it's good for them to know the history. to have a bit of an idea of what they're going to be getting into. And to them, I say, if you think you're inheriting the beauty of it, you also inherit the shadow.

You inherit the abuse. Own that too. Welcome back to what's not in a cult. I'm Tyler Meisham. And I'm Lizzie. And today, we are getting into a world that, well, I don't know much about. very little yoga it's clear by your physique you have no idea no come on I'm a spelt 54 year old dude how you could be three inches taller Tyler if you had incorporated yoga into

your life I would appreciate three more inches in a couple places but yoga don't know much about it my kind of workout is very like get as much done as you can in as short a period as you can while listening to rock music and maybe watching a movie at the same time and then pull a hamstring at the end of it. I don't like to be in my brain. There is a yoga class for you. You just got to find your person, Tyler, you know what I'm saying? I mean, the reason I don't do yoga is probably the reason I should. Have you ever stepped into a yoga studio, Tyler? No, but I look through the window in my van parked across the street. That's cool, right? You can do that. Yeah, that's really cool. You, on the other hand...

Well, I have a very long history with yoga, obviously. I discovered it in my early 20s. It changed my life. It really helped heal my body issues from years of gymnastics abuse. But most importantly, it really helped with my mind. It was like the first workout I did where I wasn't being self-critical the whole time. I wasn't like thinking about all the things that wanted to be different and change. And I was just elated after the class.

I felt amazing. I loved it. And that sort of led me into meditation and, you know, breathwork and this whole connection. Mind, body, spirit, which eventually led me into the wonderful world of spiritual self-help. Which eventually led you into the C-word, your own C-U-L-T. Yes, but not directly in a way. But Michael didn't start as that. It started as an acting class.

class, it actually morphed into a spiritual self-help cult. It was almost too serendipitous at the time because I had just discovered meditation when I had joined this class. Anyway, years later, I become a private yoga teacher myself. Never actually taught in a yoga studio, though. And I think, in a way, ironically, I could feel the culty energy in some of these yoga spaces. Some of them felt pretty intimidating. and I can do all the tricks, I can walk on my hands.

So if I'm intimidated, how does someone with zero experience feel? And I could also feel this like sort of us versus them in some of these spaces, the we're doing it better than you, you know, this is the right way slash only way energy, and that always felt shitty and wrong because I knew how beneficial yoga could be. Anyway, long story long, all that's to say is today we're diving into a very specific brand of yoga that I actually never stepped one foot into, and that is Ashtanga yoga. I've done power yoga, which is borrowed from Ashtanga, but actual Ashtanga practitioner lifestyle always felt like the opposite reason of why I did yoga. It's very militaristic, crack of dawn practice five or

six days a week. To me, it was like yoga for type A personalities. But that was all I sort of knew about it until I met Magnolia, and this interview totally blew my mind. Right. So we have had yoga cults on this show before, and there are, of course, yoga cult documentaries. And now that I do this show, I can clearly see what it was that I sensed within the culty aspects of yoga. There's the guru, the all-knowing leader, if you will, the rigid hierarchy in some of these places, the spiritual bypassing, the blind devotion, surrendering your ego messaging, which is all prime for cultic abuse. And of course, we're not saying that all yoga is a cult.

Not at all. But it's primed for it. And with that, here's the story of someone who had a cultic experience, or multiple. Let's welcome Magnolia. Well, welcome to, was I in a cult? The answer is yes. If you're here, the answer is yes. If you're here, the answer might be yes, right? I feel like we just just get right into it.

So, introduce yourself. I'm Magnolia Zuniga. I am a clinical Ayurvedic specialist practicing in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I was in three cults. Three cults. So I was in a stanga for about 20 years. So probably about 22 years total. So your family's from Mexico?

Well, so I grew up in Mexico and in Arizona, and I would go back and forth. Spanish was my first language. I grew up in a household of, you know, mostly women, all very strong, very dynamic, very loud. The dinner table was a very loud experience, you know. It was like everyone just said it was on their mind. There was a lot of drinking and then eventually guitars would come out and people would, would start singing, and it was always a fiesta, you know what I mean? It was always like, what's going to happen tonight?

And so I was raised with just these really loud women. My family was all about the American dream. There was always this tension that I could feel of the hopes and dreams of my parents and them working really hard to try and get it. We achieved this sort of upper middle class status, and then it all fell apart. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I'll say that if you're trying to sort of make a bridge between what happened in my childhood and then where I ended up in three cults, I would say, here's the bridge. And that is, I started living by myself and taking care of myself when I was 16. Wow.

I had always felt growing up like I wanted to sort of be a part of something bigger. I just wanted to have like a big city. I wanted to be in a place that felt like there was more possibility. And I had a friend of mine who was like, let's go. And we were like, woo. And we drove out to West Hollywood and got a place in West Hollywood. I started taking classes at the community college there. And I started working like a retail job.

It was great. I was there for eight or nine years. L.A. is a really fun place to be in your 20s. I was gothic. I was O. Genie Goth, lots of buckles, lots of black. It's really embarrassing. I can't believe you're making me notice. I mean, it was, you know, the cure.

And then the Smiths, I was a huge fan of the Smiths. Why is that embarrassing? Well, because Morrissey has certainly taken a turn for the worst and his sort of, anyway, yeah. Anyway, yeah, okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. We don't need to talk about Morrissey. Yeah, we don't have to go down there. Okay.

Oh, yes, we are going to go there because I might not be able to speak much about yoga. But you can't shut that. the fuck up about 80s, white male rockers? Morrissey isn't necessarily. He's male, but he really reaches into the female demographic as well. And I will carry that torch because Morrissey, for a certain sort of sad kid of the 80s and 90s, Morrissey wasn't just a singer. He was an economical ecosystem of emotions.

The Smiths, of which he was the lead, they were like a support group for people who felt everything way too much. The original emo's. Kind of, yeah. Me personally, I didn't necessarily listen to him. I wasn't a sad kid. I liked to rock out Van Halen. No, I never listened to this.

I had my sad music. But it was more like the laced with anger and like Ani DeFranco. That was my sad guru. So yeah, but he did have some great songs. And I know that all of our listeners are going to appreciate a few of these songs because we're going to play a bit of them, right? Like, how soon is now? It's a good one. One of my favorites, which is there is a light that never goes out, which is really nice,

but also sadly depressing. Heaven knows I'm miserable now, which of course says everything in the title. I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour, but heaven knows I'm miserable now. Morrissey had a great career, but then as he got older, he had a bit of a weird, very public political turn. As Magnolia references, I mean, he had nationalist comments, he's flirting with a far-right imagery, he had very extreme vegan views. But what I will say is that I interviewed Morrissey. And when I interviewed him for my latest rock documentary, plug, he wanted to be interviewed in his gym jams, as he said, in my pajamas laying in bed. And I found him to be

incredibly pleasant and kind and well thought out. And we actually connected very, very nicely in so much that he and I remained in touch. He likes to be referred to as M. And he's kind of a nice guy. That's so sweet. Send me his address. I'll send him a burger for Christmas. It will be sent back. But the odd thing about Morrissey, and part of the reason probably Magnolia liked him so much, is that he has a insane appeal to. the Latino culture. He's kind of the Mexican Elvis. If you go to East L.A., if you go to the Southwest, if you go to Lowrider Clubs, you go to backyard parties, Kinses, they are blasting Smiths. It's kind of crazy. And that's probably one of the reasons it resonated with Magnolia.

I grew up atheist, but a lot of Mexican traditions, they have ritual around them that mirrored paganism. watched my family practice these things, I was always very suspicious of what it meant. It didn't appear to have any structure. It didn't appear to make any real sense. But that's what it really attracted me to yoga was because it was structured. So my transition to that first cult, it felt like a homecoming in many ways. I took my first yoga class. I was 17. And it was a Beakrum class in Arizona, which the Southwest loves hot yoga. Why? I would go from 110 degree to 105 degree.

I guess that's some really. It's actually cooler in here. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the logic in there is somewhere. But I was 17 and I was like, this is amazing. I want to do this. I want to teach it.

I want to do it every day. I want to do it all day long. I just want to do it all day long. So then when I moved to L.A., I started taking classes at the Robertson Beekrum School, where Beekrum was teaching. I didn't really, he was very intense. He was kind of this, like, giant douchebag. And I wasn't very serious. I was taking maybe two classes a week. My girlfriend was living in Berkeley. I told her that I was going to do this Beekrum teacher training, and she just got really mortified. She sent me an anti-Beckram package, which was a couple of magazines. Yoga Journal, many years ago, wrote an article called The Bad Boy of Yoga.

And then she sent me a different magazine that had a picture of Madonna in some ecapata pose. You know, her leg is behind her head, and she's lifting up, and her biceps and her triceps are just like, doosh, dude, they're just bulging, you know? The light is hitting them just right. And then it says in the caption, you know, Madonna practices a stanga yoga. And she was like, she highlighted and circled that and she said, this is what you need to be doing with like a big arrow. But you want Madonna's arms. That's what she was trying to say. All right.

That photo is kind of iconic. Even I've seen it. And I like Madonna. I'm not going to get into my like for Madonna, but I do really like Madonna. And in that photo, her arms are jacked. Giggedy jacked. Honestly, a lot of people do credit that image. with blasting yoga into Western mainstream culture.

Now, yoga has been trickling into the United States since the late 1800s, but then it had a big counterculture movement in the 60s and 70s. But when Madonna bent herself into a human pretzel on glossy magazine paper in 1990, well, that was a cultural earthquake. Studios popped up everywhere, attendance exploded.

Suddenly, yoga wasn't just for hippies or spiritual seekers. it was for people that wanted to get a 12-pack. I'm like, yeah, okay, so I start looking for these teachers, and I'm living in Silver Lake at the time, and did the studio happen to be right around the corner from my house in Silver Lake, which, as you know, living in Los Angeles, that is just unheard of. Nothing is around the corner from your house. No.

So I went in my first day expecting to pay for a drop-in, you know, at that time, I didn't have a lot of money. And the teacher told me that I needed to pay for the month. I thought, are you nuts? I'm not going to do that. So he said, you know, well, you can observe the class and decide. So, you know, it was the 90s. So there were like big purple velvet, really thick curtains, you know.

And so I'll never forget. I opened the curtains and there were only about three or four people practicing at the time. But it's a silent room and you hear people breathing. And then you hear the pitter-patter of people's feet on the mat. You know, it's very profound. But there was this one woman practicing, and she was doing third series, Estanga, which third series Ashtanga is generally, mostly on the hands.

It's different kinds of arm balances, and she was doing it with this ease and steadiness, and she was so strong. It was just gorgeous. The choreography, the silence, her breathing was mesmerizing. You know, all of it, it was intoxicating. And, you know, I think I had like $150 in my checking account, and it was $120 for the month.

And I turned around and I said, here's my check. Okay, I love the holidays, but between the parties and the airports and the sugar and more sugar and the gift buying and wrapping, it can get overwhelming. Which is why my new favorite holiday ritual is a cozy blanket, Christmas vacation on repeat, and Sol's out-of-office gummy. Mine is elf on repeat. You know, we shouldn't push aside the cavalcade of Hallmark Christmas movies either. An out-of-office gummy, Hallmark Christmas movie Marathon.

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And right now, Soul is offering our audience. That's you, 30% off your entire order. Go to getsold.com and use our code, guys, cult. Let's GetSol.com promo code cult for 30% off. Was I in a cult is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning,

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folds, the basics. Second series gets more intense, deeper backbends, more demanding poses. And then third series, what Magnolia saw that first day, is basically all arm balances and insanely impressive strength work. It's the show-off yoga move stuff, you know. When I started to Stanga, I was pretty lost. I was coming from a place where I had no structure. I was drinking a lot and I was really searching for something, you know, and I was still partying little.

I was still going to bars. You know, it's L.A. It's fun. I'm in my 20s. It's like, woo. You know, so sometimes I went from the clubs to the yoga. studio. I literally would just pull up and like I'm still drunk dude. Like I would tell my future, you know. And he was like, great. I'm glad you're here. Like that was the one thing about my

teachers. It was like, do anything you want in your life. Just show up and do your practice. Nice to see you. So a stanga was something that provided a lot of stability in that time in my life. And the female teacher was like, I really liked her. She took no shit. You know, she was very strong. mentally she spoke her mind. I really liked her. And in a stonga, the teaching method itself sets a very specific tone. It's quiet. It's structured. It's almost ceremonial, unlike most other forms of yoga instruction. And so the teacher walks around the room and gives physical adjustments. So they have access to your body that whole time through physical adjustments. The room is silent. The teacher goes

around, fixes a shoulder, fixes this. It's very heavy on adjustments. No speaking. Yes, in my source, style practice, the room is silent. Since it's the same sequence every single time, the teachers don't actually call out the moves, and your teacher decides when you are, quote, ready to receive your next pose to add to your routine. I'm practicing with this married couple. They're great. They're always talking about their teacher, Batabi Joyce. And they're telling me, like, oh, this is ancient. And I was like, well, I'm going into a push-up. It doesn't feel very ancient. Like, I remember thinking that. You know, like, how ancient can this be? But I was like, whatever. I mean, who cares? I was like, it just didn't matter. It just wasn't

a thing. Potabi Joyce was an Indian yoga teacher from Mysore who built his entire reputation on the idea that Ashtanga Yoga was this ancient, sacred system passed down through secret texts. But the reality of his history is this. Born in 1915, Patabi Joyce was born near Mysore, India, in the Brahman caste. His father was a priest, and he was meant to follow that path. But instead, he ran away from home as a teenager after seeing a yoga demonstration and ended up studying under a man named Krista Machara, the man who basically created modern yoga.

And with him, years later, in the mid-90s, he developed the Ashtanga method. So people talk about Ashtanga like it's thousands of years old, but it's actually a very modern creation. And the ancient text, Yoga Karunta, that he claims his existence. entire system was based on, has never actually been seen by any scholars. It's kind of like the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, isn't it? The manuscript was reportedly written on perishable banana leaves and was later destroyed and eaten by ants. And those ants have now transcended lifetimes and are the most enlightened beings to ever live, supposedly. So Joyce studied

with Christian Macharia, who Christian Macharia is considered the grandfather of modern yoga. And Then Joyce then systematized the different sequences of Ashtanga Yoga. He opened a little school in Mysore and started taking in his first Western students, so just a handful of students. Some of his Western students were from Encinitas, and they invited him to Encinitas. So that was in the 80s. So that was his first step into the West, and he would repeatedly come back. So that was sort of the beginning of modern vinyasa yoga. And what made him, like, unique?

I can see how people projected this grandfather image onto him. He was, you know, a little chubby. He was adorable. He would, like, waddle around. And, you know, he was funny. He would crack jokes. But he was charismatic. And he was also very, there was this mysticism.

You know, and for that older generation, that was sort of coming into the 70s and the 80s that were looking for a subculture. they got that. And the philosophy of Ashtanga was very specific and was preached that there was definitely a correct way to yoga. So, in order to really experience and integrate the benefits of yoga into your body, into the nervous system, it really needs to be something that is practiced five, six days a week. And you just refine and you refine and you refine. And then when you get to a place where the physical,

postures are relatively easy, then you just start refining the breath. And once you start refining the breath, you start working deeper into the nervous system. You know, people get turned off by the fact that it's the same thing, but there's a lot of interesting things that happen when you do the same thing every day. So remember how Magnolia previously stated that she was in three cults? Well, here comes number two, not counting her brush with beakrum. So I have asthma, and in L.A., my asthma was pretty bad. Doctors would give me all this stuff that wasn't working.

My girlfriend at the time is in Berkeley, and so that's when my friend was like, you need to see my Ayurvedic practitioner, teacher slash, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, in Berkeley. And I talked to him on the phone. But he was really friendly, he was cool. He was like in his mid-40s, a white dude from Jersey. We just talked about what he's doing up in Berkeley.

He was sort of enticing me with these different practices and the community and making it seem really magical and intriguing. And I was curious, you know. But he was like, it's by invitation only. And it was just very sort of, I have to laugh what I think of. You know, I'm in my 20s. Like, can we break? So anyway, so I said, well, what would it take to be a part of the community?

Like, you know, what's the deciding factor here? And he's like, it would take something. extraordinary or something like that. And I was like, like, what? And he was like, I don't know, like showing up in the middle of the night. And I was like, all right, well, I can do that. Like, you know, and I hung up. And I hit the road. And so I get there in the middle of the night. And the next morning, I wake up and I meet the community and it's all just gorgeous white ladies. And so I stayed there. Your status in the community depended on your relationship to him specifically. So he had

chosen these women to live with him in his house through these different tests. And he really didn't like me, you know, so I was not going to be... Why didn't he like you? He didn't like me because I didn't know how to cook. Okay. Okay. Like, so he put me through these different tests to see if he would choose me. One of the first tests was cooking him dinner. I didn't know how to cook. so I ended up making this horrible meal for him and of course I wasn't like chosen and of course he then would start ridiculing me in front of others and I really didn't give a shit

I would sort of shrug my shoulders and I'd be like he's just being a dick but the other people were like oh how are you are you okay I'm like I'm fine he's a giant ass like don't you see you know so I laughed and I heard that afterwards when I left I had found out that he had been raping them And I realized that if I had passed that cooking test, I would have been invited to stay. Yeah, that took a turn I wasn't really expecting. Here's to burnt rice and undercooked chicken.

But just because she dodged that cult doesn't mean she was free and clear of all cults. She was still very committed to her Stanga Yoga, so much so that she wanted to eventually teach it. And so her teachers in L.A. continued to tell her that she needed to go to Mysore to study with the guru. And then after that is when I took my first trip to Mysore to study Ashdanga with Joyce. I was ready to study with the master. And how long did you plan for that to be? I planned to be there for three months, which was at the time, more or less kind of the minimum.

So again, Potabi Joyce is the creator of Ashtanga, and a huge deal, as you can imagine. What I learned from Magnolia as people travel to train with him for months at a time. They give up their job, they subley's homes, all to get the opportunity to be in this man's presence for months on end. But of course, this particular studio

was not around the corner from her house. I've never been to India. I got like an extra job on the side in order to pay for it. And it's, you know, from San Francisco. So it's a 24-hour flight, but it kind of takes a couple days to get there. You go into Bangalore, and then you have to take the train the next day. And the train stations in India are really loud, really crowded.

India is pretty crowded. It's intense. There's a lot of different smells, some really awful, some really beautiful. And then from the train station, I took a rickshaw to Gokulam, which is the neighborhood that the Mysore school is in. So, after this long, arduous journey, she was finally ready to be in the presence of the enlightened master. You go into the office, you say, I'm here to check in,

you give them the money, they give you a start time. And there could be hundreds of people depending on the season from all over the world. So I show up, and Joyce, I had been warned about this, that he was funny with money. Joyce would count the money. He said, oh, you know, you don't have enough money. And I said, no, I do have enough money.

And he counted it and made mistakes when he was counting. And I said, no, I counted it too. So he went back and forth and finally he would grunt a lot. And he just was like, fine. Gave me the start time. Meaning that was the time every morning she would start her practice with him. I found this really dark apartment that was infested. with cockroaches. And it was part of my really sad experience. You know, I don't get any sleep. I'm

totally jet lagged. My start time, I think, was about 5.30. So I wake up and my heart is pounding. There's the Muslim prayers in the morning over the loudspeakers, over the city that is just haunting and gorgeous. And I go into the Shala. That is, of course, the school. So you open the door to the Shala and I thought, oh, I'm going to be the first one in. there. So in the foyer, it's really squished with people. And again, the Shala is quiet, except for the sound of people breathing and the sound of people's feet jumping back and forth from posture to posture. It's almost run like an assembly line of yogis. Joyce is inside the room and his assistant is Sherat Joyce, his grandson. And all they're doing is walking around the room, adjusting people.

And when a space opens up, they say one more, and then a new student comes in. So that's how people clear out of the foyer. And so I'm standing at the door frame, and I was just watching the room while I was waiting for them to say one more. And this girl, you know, she had the cutest little pig tails. And she's in yoga and Idrasana, which is a pose where you're on your back. Both feet are behind your head. and your hands are clasped around your lower back, so your hands are on the mat. So as I was standing there waiting, Joyce comes up and adjusts her by putting his

middle finger and ring finger like inside of her, and his thumb was around the front of her crotch, and then with his other hand, he pressed down on her ankles. and I saw his first knuckle disappear. I was right there. And I completely disassociated. I looked at her face to see if she was. She didn't even, she had this look on her face that was completely zen. And then he got up and he walked away and he went to someone else to adjust.

And I, I froze. I was completely stunned. I didn't know what to do. and then they said one more and I went in and I started my practice and every time that Joyce would come by me I would like tense

and through my postures like I would be looking through my downward dog watching him and he would grab buttocks he would grab breasts in back vents he was massaging women's buttocks he would dry hump you know

so a woman would be in a downward dog and he would go up behind them put one leg on one side and one leg on the other side and grab the woman's hips and like give him a little crotch to crotch bite. And the women that this was happening to would continue practicing like this was normal. And sometimes they would, while he was doing this, they would cry and put their head on their shoulder. And I, that was what was most shocking for me was that this was happening in the open and that everybody was pretending like it was okay or everyone was pretending like they didn't see it. This was your first?

Very first day. This is an example of cognitive dissonance happening in real time. Her brain trying to protect herself from something she knows is not okay. Something she knows is fucked up. But she's surrounded by an entire community of people who are all acting like it's totally fine. Because when an entire room pretends something's normal, that blatantly is not normal, like overt sexual abuse, your brain will say, okay, then I must be the one who's wrong. And instead of

questioning the system, you start to question yourself. And that is how abuse survives. That is how abusers thrive. We'll be right back. I love giving gifts. It's truly one of my favorite things. And I love thoughtful gifts that are personal, which is why I'm getting you Tyler, a monthly subscription to uselessfax.com. That is very thoughtful, Liz. Full of thought. Full of thought. And so this year, ORA frames is my go-to for a guaranteed meaningful gift.

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Support the show. by mentioning us at checkout, terms and conditions apply. So it's Magnolia's first day with her esteemed master-creator guru, the one her L.A. teachers have raved about since she began this journey. The one who created this incredible practice that has quickly defined her life, the one she traveled halfway around the world to dedicate three months of her life to. And she just witnessed him sexually assault a woman. in a way that isn't just shocking but completely destabilizing

in a way that shatters every expectation she had of who this man was supposed to be. So I left and I wrote to my teacher in L.A. Because I mentioned earlier how she was a very devoted student of Joyce's but also really kind of strong and like didn't take no shit from anyone. So I wrote her an email and I said, Okay. He's molesting people. So what is going on? She wrote me back and she said, yeah, it's a problem. She said nobody's perfect. She's like most people don't tell him no, but you can tell him no and he won't do it. You know, I'll be there in a few weeks. Just wait. I'll be there. We'll talk about it. We'll make a plan. And there it is. Classic cult rationale. Protect the leader at all costs. No matter what.

Magnolia was already there. She'd already ridden the rickshaw, paid the first and last month on her cockroach infested apartment, and she wanted to keep learning. So Chirot, his grandson, after assisting Joyce in the morning, would then go teach his own students separately in a separate home. So I studied with Chirot for a month, but I was like, ah, you know, I came all this way to study with Joyce, I'm so pissed, like, fuck, you know, fuck, why is this happen? I was really pissed. So my teacher arise, and I'm like,

I came here to study with a master of a stanga yoga. There has to be a way that I can do this without him molesting me. And she said, let's roleplay this. And she's like, okay, what are you going to say? And I said, I'm going to go into his office. I'm going to say, don't touch my vagina. No, you can't say that, Magnolia.

What am I supposed to say? She said he's an Indian man. And he also doesn't speak very good English. She's like, you need to speak in his language. So she said, go in and tell him that you notice that he touches ladies and ladies area. And then you're going to stand up and you're going to say, you touch ladies here, put your hands on your breasts, put your hands on your butt, and put your hands on your vagina. And then say, I don't want that. I'm like, okay.

She said he's going to deny it. And if he still denies it, then tell him you want to be married one day. Because if it's one thing that he's going to understand, it's that. So I go into his office and I close the door. And Sherat opens it. And I'm like, Shabbat. And so I close the door. And then he opens it again.

And I'm like, okay, well, I guess we're doing this. And I do my rehearsed speech. And he says, who's touching? I said, you, Guruji. I say, you touch lady in ladies area. I said, for me, I don't want. And he's, oh, no, he starts, like, kind of grumbling and doing his thing. And I said, you are the master of Ashtanga Yoga.

This is what she told me to say. You are the master of Ashtanga Yoga. I want to come practice with you. No touching. And he just looks at me, and then I realize that he's not getting it. And I say, I want to be married one day. Which was not true. I've never wanted to be married.

And he said, oh, no problem. You come, take practice. No problem. problem. And I said, no touching Garucci? He said, no touching. I said, okay. Um, the next morning, I go and I practice, and I do backbends, and he comes up to adjust me in backbends. And then he puts his hands on my butt. And I moved his hands up to my waist, and I put my finger up in his nose, and I said, no, Guruji, no touching. And he grabs my finger, and he said, that is correct method. And then he walked away.

So when people ask me, like, why did you stay for that long, one of them was after I witnessed those assaults, I started asking students. I started asking women, what is going on? And some of them would say, I like it when he dutch those adjustments. I feel a rush. I feel an energetic exchange. I feel a Shaktipat. Some of them would say, oh my God, it's horrible. I just completely just wins. and avoid it. You know, everyone had their coping mechanism around it. The men were useless. The men were like, oh, you just don't understand what Joyce is. Yeah, I do, dude. It's called sexual assault. If you need a little help, you can call Larry Nasser.

See, if he can explain it to you, his number is 1-800 pervert in jail. That was a huge mind fuck for me because it was, how am I going to tell this woman that enjoys this particular, experience that, no, you're actually being sexually assaulted. I was operating from this mindset about choice feminism. Women have a choice, and if a woman is making a choice, and it's inherently feminist, because it's her choice, it's her life. So much conditioning goes into the choices that we make.

And I didn't have that understanding at the time. You know, so that's what kept me in it. Choice feminism, yes, this is a term I just. learned is the concept that anything a woman chooses is automatically empowering simply because she chose it. I have a lot to say about that, but I choose not to. Oh, that's very empowering. Good choice feminism. So what cult wouldn't be complete without a level system? And the way the level system works in a stonga to becoming a teacher is crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. And if you're a Stanga practitioner listening right now, and you want to defend yourself? Well, I won't say it.

But I will. It's cognitive dissonance, rearing its head. So there were different levels of the teaching. There was authorized level one, which meant that you could teach primary series. But to get authorized could take like four years. There was authorized level two, which meant that you could teach up to second series. And then there was certified. And the certified was a little. bit stricter. It meant that you had been traveling to India for at least 10 years. 10 years. Fuck off. Like doctors can perform surgery faster than that. That's right. You know, I went there practicing a primary series. They moved me through second series. I would say probably within my first trip, which was kind of accelerated. And I got authorized level two in 2007. At that time,

the yoga boom was starting. So then I started getting invitations around the world to teach workshops. I was known as a more, as a serious teacher because I was spending most of my time in India, then I would get more invitations to teach in the world. And that was another really exciting part of the job. And what's happening to your circle? Well, it's pretty small. It's all Mysore students. It's all Mysore practitioners, Ashanga practitioners. Because what happens is, so you have this community of global, worldwide students that are coming from all over the world that are practicing this very intense practice in one room. So that created this bond between practitioners. And Magnolia had made this her life's commitment traveling back and forth from India many times a year.

So when I was practicing with Joyce before he died. Joyce died in 2009. This was five years after Magnolia first started studying director. with him. I was only going up to second series. Then he dies. I stay studying with his grandson, Sharad. That was sort of a big relief because it was like, okay, well, he's not abusive. But then I stayed there at only second series for eight years.

Eight years, her jaw just dropped. Tyler's like, don't make noise when they speak, but I'm like internally screaming right now. So for those eight years, can you just tell us, just tell us, you were doing yoga five times a week? Five or six. I had an apartment there, and in San Francisco, I gave up my apartment. So I would have my home in India, and then I would come to San Francisco, and I would stay on

friends' couches for a month. I'd work a couple jobs, save up enough money to go back to Mysore. Because at this point now, I want to be authorized, eventually maybe certified. How much was this costing you? I want to say maybe $800 a month, $1,300 for the flight. Okay, so I'm still trying to completely understand. understand this. Being authorized means you're allowed to teach part of the practice. The primary series may be the secondary, but being certified means you've spent 10 plus years going back

to Mysore, proving your devotion, until the guru finally grants you permission to teach the entire system. It's a lot. I guess that's kind of the Estanga version of being knighted. So I got certified in 2015. I was one of 20 women worldwide that was certified. But I wanted to have more of a monastic experience. I wanted to be a renunciate for some time. And Ashtanga Yoga was not that avenue. And that's when I went to the Bihar School of Yoga Ashram.

Do you remember that third cult, she mentioned? Well, enter the third cult. And I spend a year in the monastery. And this is also a cult, but it's organized very differently, right? So my first cult, it was like a small community, one house, power meant proximity to teacher, how much he liked you, et cetera. Then the Ashtanga community is structured differently. It still has one person is at the head of it.

They're controlling your career, but they don't control anything else. Then we go into the monastery. The monastery is a big campus, lots of different buildings. You can be a guest for a weekend. It could be a week. It could be months. It could be nine months. You could go as someone that wants to stay there and volunteer your time. Or you can go as a potential sannyas. And then if you do that, then you wear the robes. So the sannyasins are. all kinds of people from teenagers that are like 18 years old that have renounced the world to people that have been scientists, doctors, and then decided to renounce. You know, whereas Ashtanga, everything, it was always kind of like a same sort of person. So the Bihar School of Yoga is a very reputable ashram. It is not like an eat, pray, love, ashram. It's very heavy on Sava, on selfless service. So, you're doing a lot of work for the local communities. That's a triggering word for me. That was a word in our cult to get us to do all free labor. Yes. Sometimes it would be teaching the local children

English or computer skills or a lot of times we would be hosting Indian festivals. It was really hard work. It was non-stop without any recognition. This was a way to challenge your ego. It was a way to break you down physically until you actually get to the core of, oh, this is my ego. I want my fucking gold stars. I want recognition. Where's my Instagram stories that I can be like, click here I am with the local. I'm setting bricks. Right. You know, wink, wink, like there was none of that. And what did you want from going there? I wanted a monastic life. I wanted to be a nun. Yeah. I mean, it's just that simple. I wanted to challenge myself in that way.

So, yes, I did have to clean toilets. Yes, I did have to do all those things. And yes, I did have a lot of emotional breakdowns of like, this is fucking bullshit. And like, ah, you know, it's just raging. But she wasn't necessarily planning on overstaying her welcome in this particular cult. Well, when I get authorized, I was invited to Hong Kong for a teaching contract there for a year. And so I was wondering, do I stay or do I take this job?

Because I was quite comfortable there. But I also, I could tell that the longer I was there, the harder it would be to integrate into the world, this job with Hong Kong, it was like, okay, it's now or never. Like if I'm going to integrate back in the world, it's now. Go to plane and go to Hong Kong now, get back into the world. And then later I had found out that a lot of the Swami's were just time of having sex with each other and there were pregnancies, you know,

and the Swami is a renunciate, they take celibacy vows. And then Me Too breaks out and then, you know, there are articles you can read them. I was reading them just a few days ago of women coming forward talking about the abuse. I'm not surprised, but I'm glad, you know, I left. Are there any true monks in the world? Probably. We just don't hear from them because they don't post on social media. Nor are they involved in sexual abuse cases.

So Magnolia continues to live the life of a rarefied Ashtanga yoga teacher. She travels the globe teaching classes. She becomes a star in the community. But eventually she does settle down. She goes back to the good old US of A, meets a man, gets married, and opens her own yoga Ashtanga school. Where was your school located? It was in San Francisco in downtown San Francisco.

So first I rented out of a dance studio, which was really great, and then later I rented out of a different yoga studio. You know, my schedule as a teacher was I would wake up at two in the morning. I would practice from three to five in the morning. I would get my studio ready from five to five 30, and then I would teach from 5.30 to 9 a.m. And that was my schedule for at least 10 years. In case you guys were wondering, don't worry, Tyler and I are not currently wearing match. underwear. No, we are a podcast partners, but we have separate underwear drawers. But I am wearing right now, me undies. It's true. I am. And honestly, it's the best my package has ever

felt or looked, for that matter, since 1998. TMI, thank you very much. Probably TMI, but still, it actually, there's something about it. I don't know what it does, but how it's manufactured, but it really does. It enhances. It fits in all the right places. And it looks good where a man needs it. And they are so soft. I live in my mandis because they are the go-to for unbelievably soft underwear and loungeware. It's made from ultramodal. Yeah, ultramodal.

It should be called ultra-marshmallow because it's like, I don't know, it's like being hugged by one. Like your junk is being hugged by a marshmallow. I've been there. Now, with your partner and not your podcast host, I highly recommend their matching ridiculous festival. set of underwear or PJs for the family. I'm going for the ho, ho, ho, ho, and me, the Santa print, obviously. Oh, there's lots of ho, ho, ho, ho in you, I imagine, Liz. Oh, plus everything is sustainably made, guys, so you feel good about gifting them to everyone

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is actually better with money today than I was in college, and a lot of it has to do with Greenlight. So Greenlight's a debit card, it's a money app it's made for families. Parents can send money, they track spending, they set savings goals, while kids learn the value of money. money and how to actually manage it, not just to ask for it all the time. So lately my son, he's been into baseball, right? And when we practice, he gets a dime for each run scored based on how hard he hits the ball. I have to pay him for it. So I guess he's a professional baseball player now, right? But what he wants is his money put on the Greenlight Savings account, which is totally cool. And it also has this chores feature, right? So my son, he sets the table,

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So now that you've been thoroughly dazzled by our ability to sell things directly into your ear holes, let's get back to the story. Let's rewind a bit in Magnolia's journey, back to when she was getting her authorization. Because she wasn't just practicing at this point. She really wanted to understand the system that she had dedicated her life to. I decide that I'm going to research the history of Ishtanga. And then I started interviewing some of those first-generation teachers. Nobody would talk to me except for one person. And so that's what brought me to interview Mr. T.K. Sharma,

who was a student of Christian Macharias along with Joyce and Iyengar. And he told me about the history, how it came over. And then I started asking him about the sexual. assaults, i.e. inappropriate adjustments. And he said, I was the main photographer of the school of the Shala, and I am sitting on hours and hours of video footage of him adjusting like this, and they will never see the time of day. And I said, what? Yeah, why? And he said, because nobody will understand. Because he wants to protect Guru. He was a student of his for a very long time. Anyway, So I do this research, and then shortly after I realized that it was a cover-up.

Fast forward to 2017, and the effects of the abuse, the gaslighting, the confusion, while they were still gnawing at Magnolia. And the world was about to be hit by a force of women's voices that would change everything. So Me Too happens, and then women start coming forward. This very famous female practitioner comes forward. word on Facebook and says Potabi Joy sexually assaulted me for years. And I'm like oh man, it's happening. I'm like

kind of excited. This open secret doesn't have to be open anymore because I'm thinking that we all know this is happening, the community. So now we can all talk about it. But she was still stuck in a trap that so many people get stuck in in cults.

It's like system justification theory where your brain protects the system to keep your world intact, even if it means rationalizing the leader's abuse. Oh, still separating the art from the artist. Oh, Joyce is just a man, but the practice works really well. And that was a huge justification and a really huge reason of why I stayed for so long. You know, when these women were being assaulted for decades and decades and decades, what's interesting is that when I saw that happening and I knew it was wrong,

I questioned myself. I didn't question the system. And I was still really stuck on this choice feminine idea, these women that liked it and that chose it. And so, you know, I had this one conversation with my husband and I said, you know, it's just these women, they just take up a lot of real estate in my mind and my heart and they enjoyed it.

So how, who am I to say that, you know? And I remember he turned around really quickly and he was like, babe. He's like, I cannot go into the, the office tomorrow and grab everyone's ass because one of them likes it. It's still a crime. You know? And he just like held up his hands. Like he was so, he had obviously like had it with me. And so when he said that to me, it really snapped me out of it. You know, and he had to put it in such blatant Western terms, just took the emotion all out of it. And I was a little embarrassed because it was like, but it's so obvious. But that. That's. That. That.

was the moment that it really, whatever I had left, it just shattered it. And so then that finished it for me. That finished it for me as far as the community. We got pregnant. I closed my school. I'd made a public announcement that I closed the school, that I witnessed the assaults. My complicity was vis-a-vis staying, that I was a coward, and, you know, I took some time off. So after 22 years deep inside the Ashtanga world, A sexual abuse cult hiding in insanely difficult arm balances. Magnolia walked away. She was no longer promoting it, teaching it, or giving a single dollar to it.

But once you leave something that big, you start to poke at all the corners. And for Magnolia, that led her to this. So then I started just kind of learning more. about cult dynamics and I started paying attention more to people that had deconstructed out of religion I could relate that more and I started learning more about feminism and learning more about choice feminism and I have a daughter I had a moment with her you know she was six months old and I was still trying to practice yoga I had already closed I had closed my school about a month

before I tried to do the Syria A's and B's and I started hearing Patabi Joyce's words for the first time ever, I started hearing his voice and I would stop practicing and I would go and just go in the other room and it kept happening and I was finally like, I just can't practice anymore. I'm done. Soon after one of those practices, I was breastfeeding and I was looking at my daughter's eyes and I was like, I can't, if I'm going to be any example to my daughter, I can't do any of this. And I can't be associated with it in any way. And so that was the beginning of my complete and total disentanglement of it and all of my relationships. My Estanga friendships have completely dissolved. It's been years.

I mean, the only thing that I get now is hateful, threatening email from the Estanga practitioner. That really hates my content, hates what I say, hates what I write. I don't read them anymore. I leave them on unread. I just don't care. Now, community is one of the deepest human needs that we have, being around like-minded people, feeling valued, feeling seen. I mean, that's how we're wired. It's how we survived as a species. And this desire is what is used and weaponized by cult leaders. They know this and they take full advantage of it. As humans were built for belonging. So when you leave your community, Especially one that you've been a part of for over two decades like Magnolia.

Well, it's brutal. You're not just losing a belief system. You're losing your people. I'm so ready for that. I'm ready to find my people, you know, because it's so isolating. This work is really isolating. Well, the irony is that when you're in a cult, it isolates you from the world, right? But then the world's like, fine, bye.

So then you lose the world because the world doesn't care about you. you, really. Nobody really cares about anybody. And now you're more isolated than you were when you were in the cult. Yeah. So you need to, I mean, in order to do this kind of work, you really need to have a support system around you. You know, I had my therapist, you know, my husband was a good soundboard. He has been incredibly patient over so many conversations that we've had for so many years. And part of the reason Magnolly reached out in the first place is there is currently another abuse case that has surfaced in the Ashnaga community. And about 200 teachers have now signed an open letter to address it. And while they do acknowledge the survivors and they do

condemn abuse, the letter also makes it clear that there's no system in place to deal with any of it. They stopped short of actually creating accountability or naming what it is that needs to change. It's more of like a tentative, like first step. Like, yeah, we see there's a fire. Yeah, which isn't great. So we're going to form a community and we're going to talk about how you hold a hose one day. I don't know. I think it's kind of not going to move a needle, but read it for yourself. The link is in the show notes. So I guess that leads to the question of can a system survive its founder? Once the cult leader dies, the one who created and normalized the abuse,

can the cult transform into, well, not a cult, something healthy and positive? No. No, you can skip ahead now. No, you cannot separate Joyce from the teachings. Like, he created this system of power and control. Ashtanga Yoga is like this haunted house.

Like, Joyce was the architect of this haunted house that was about power. power is about him having full control as far as your progression. And people think that because the architect is dead, the haunted house is suddenly safe. You're still living in that haunted house. It's a broken system because across continents, across decades, across generations that didn't even see the abuse happening. They are recreating that because it's about power, control, and abuse. They don't understand that it took a community of people to enable this, that it took a few key people to literally cover it up, and then a whole community of men to say, oh, well, we don't

really understand. The guru works in mysterious ways. And then a whole community of women to be like, we don't really understand, but everything seems to be going okay. And well, he's kind of choosing me, you know, like a pick me girl. Like all of the internal dialogue that we as women have, in order to get through the day without being fucking sexually assaulted. And then the men that are in our lives that are supposed to be our allies, they have no clue how to be allies because they are so used to women being abused. So it took a whole community. This is fucked up.

I've been complicit in it by being it. And hereby today, I renounce my Ashtanga affiliation, full stop. Thank you. That's it. I've got nothing else. I mean, I have a lot more. Well, you're amazing. No, you're amazing.

Truly. And honestly, even putting aside the abuse for a second, don't stay in any system where you spend 10 years paying out of pocket, living on couches, waking up at two, and the big reward at the end is, what, permission to teach all of the insanely hard tricks? If that certification isn't coming with health insurance, a parking spot, and a million dollar paycheck, call me instead.

I'll teach you how to do a fucking handstand. Because she's doing one right now. Magnolia, thank you for your story and for bending my mind in ways I never thought possible. I could talk to you four hours, Magnolia, as I did. And Tyler wonderfully cut it down into this perfect, Perfectly structured episode. I had to cut out a lot of Liz's responses and remarks and breaths and us and alms. Here's just a few of them that I put into a little pile.

Wow. Wow. No. Ugh. Mm. Oh. Wow. Right.

Mm-hmm. Uh. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Wow. Hey, ladies.

Do you know what it's like when the men in your life. try to erase you from your life, don't let it happen. Keep speaking. Get louder. Thank you once again, Magnolia, for illuminating us all on the spiritual ego that lives in this world and the cults that form because of it. Now, we are nearing the end of the year, and if you're looking for a gift outside of all the great stuff that our sponsors offer, one gift to give your coal leaders, which is us, a Patreon membership. It's at the top of my nice list. You get bonus material, ad-free episodes,

although we know you guys love our ads so much and you would actually pay more for them. And if you contribute, it genuinely helps us making this show and fighting cults. Instead of fighting parking meter attendance like you do, Margaret, we know what you did. Thank you to our newest badass Patreon bitches,

Annette Kemp, Rhonda Winkle, Sarah Quinn Chow and Sarah Stowell. You know, I love that we are a female-centric podcast, truly. But where are the dudes, guys? Do I need to attract some more guys to our show by dropping a few more ACDC references to lure you in? Because I absolutely can. You don't have to do that. I absolutely can. ACDC, the band that proved two things. Australia Rock is a gift of humanity.

and two, a man in a schoolboy uniform can absolutely melt your face off with a guitar solo. And don't even get me started on the Bond Scott versus Brian. We're trying to get you started. We're trying to get you ended. All right. Well, if you go to Patreon, maybe I'll continue this conversation. And we'll be taking a couple weeks off for the holidays to prep for the brand new, new year, new us. in 2026. Wasay and a cult is hosted, written, and produced by Tyler Badahaasta. Say it.

Sanjikansana. Mism. And me, Liz, I will not wake up at 2 a.m. for this asana. Ayakuzzi. Sound design and mix by Rob. Please stop adjusting me asana. Asana. Asana.

I can't even do that. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. Hi, I'm Jesse Prey. And I'm Andy Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly.

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