Was I In A Cult? - The Cult of Rodney Howard-Browne: “Holy Ghosted”

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

She thought she was enrolling in a Bible college.Instead, she was signing up to give her identity, her labor, her choice—and her fire—to a man who called himself the Holy Ghost Bartender.At “River University,” worship looked like laughing fits and collapsing bodies. Romance was arranged. Submission wasn’t suggested—it was glorified. And your soul? That was just a tally mark on a clipboard.For Sarah, what started as a mission from God turned into a 12-year descent through emotional control, spiritual abuse, and religious labor trafficking.___FOLLOW US for more culty content, behind-the-scenes chaos, and updates from our unholy quest to expose charismatic conmen:→ @wasiinacult on Instagram & TikTokSUPPORT THE SHOW:Rodney’s followers emptied their bank accounts at the altar. We just ask you to visit Patreon.If this episode hit you—or made you question the price of obedience—share it, and leave a review.To our Patreon members:You're the real holy fire. Thank you for keeping the mic on and the bullshit detectors charged. Want ad-free episodes and exclusive extras?→ Join us on Patreon.HAVE A CULTY STORY?We wanna hear it.→ Email us: [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. So my name is Sarah Ricks. I was in a place that I would definitely categorize as a cult, obviously. It's the River at Tampa Bay Church, or I would say really the cult of Rodney Howard Brown.

That was six years of my life, and it was hell, and a place they call Joyful. Welcome, everyone, to Was I in a cult? Yeah, you were. I'm Tyler Meesam. I'm Liz Ayakuzzi. And yes, on this show, we have covered many a cult, and many. many a Christian cults. Why are there so many Christian cults?

I mean, there's just a lot of cults. I mean, well, but I feel like the Christian cult, we get like two to three at least in the inbox, in like the inbox weekly. Like, have you heard of this random Christian cult? Have you heard of this one? It just makes me feel bad. It makes me feel bad. I don't like it.

No, but for everyone that sends in a email, there's lots of people that are, I suspect pretty happy with their Christian church. Yeah, of course. But that's not what we're covering today. That's not. That's not. Today is one that we haven't yet heard, and that is the world of the televangelist. The lights, the stage, the camera, the marathon services where people laugh and collapse and cry on cue, all orchestrated by a pastor who calls himself the Holy Ghost bartender.

It's faith as spectacle, and behind the show is a machine. to demand your money, your labor, your time, and in the case of Sarah, our guest, even her identity. Sarah went in with a dream of becoming one day a filmmaker and spent more than a decade trapped in Rodney Howard Brown's River at Tampa Bay Church. And this is her story. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. I grew up in North Carolina near Greensboro,

and I'm the oldest of five. When I was young, I remember saying I wanted to be a director, so I really had a desire for film. daydreaming stories. I attempted writing a script when I was like 11. So I fell in love with the music of the movies and it would help me create my own stories. When I was younger, what really inspired me was films like Jurassic Park, Twister. My mom took me to Titanic when I was 10. And I remember I needed to pee so bad. I couldn't leave the theater for a three-hour effing movie. I really just watched the scene where he's drawing her naked. I don't know.

know how it ended. When I was in college, I had one of those TVs with a built-in VHS, and Titanic, obviously, long movie, two-parter. We'd go out, we'd be drinking, we'd party, I'd come home and be like, we gotta watch the Titanic. And it was literally like my late-night movie for all of college. Wow. Long movie to watch starting at two in the morning. Or two in the afternoon. I'd be like wasted eating pretzels with ice cream. We're like, we have. After I say, damn it. Now you go to bed at 8.30 after watching Bluey with your son. Correct.

Times have changed. Times of changed. We went to a very strict independent Baptist church. And my mom was adamant. Go to every service. You wear your skirts and dresses like pants or like no-go. The kids had to go to a Baptist Christian school all the way up through seventh grade. So when I gained 16, it was my second year of a public high school.

I was very outcast. That was one impact from growing up in the Christian school and my environment. I was very unsocial. So I didn't have any friends. I was very alone. And then I went on a mission trip and I considered it my life-changing moment with God. I saw someone speak in tongues. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, that must be God.

And he loves me unconditionally. I want to help people. And so I considered going to ministry. So Phyllum became just pushed in the background. Yes, a cult in its own right. actually the main story of shiny happy people season two on Amazon Prime currently. Alas, we do not have the time to get into Teen Mania today. So here's Sarah's 30-second experience. So Teen Media is just about getting young people on fire for Jesus, turning away from Satan,

and teaching them to be pursuing God and helping reach the lost people of the world. A youth pastor invited me to a retreat where we broke our CDs and we became. We're dedicated to God and we're going to date Jesus, you know, that whole thing got ingrained right away. I left there, came back from Texas to North Carolina, and I was still like, I'm dating Jesus, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it was like March 2008. I was 20. And then she met her future leader when he was in town one weekend for his traveling circus show. Might as well be that, guys. Rodney R. Brown does these things called Great Awakening Tours, and what it references is that

it's the third Great Awakening of America, because back in time there was these great awakenings or revivals in America where God came back, so he believes that he's bringing the Great Awakening again through these Great Awakening Tours, and I was invited, and I went to this service that was very different. We have in the move of God in America. We have any moves of God in America. Come on, don't give me that rubbish. That just means you want to burn somewhere else and not burn here.

It's time for everybody to start burning at home. Are you listening to me? Well, I tell you, I feel the fire of the Holy Ghost in this place tonight. Some things are about to get fired here. Hallelujah. Boy, if you can't take the heat, get out the kitchen. Like, people would just start breaking out and laughing and falling on the floor. I noticed people, like, just responding, like, they were drunk and just, like, I remember them being very engaged.

And I was just, like, in awe, like, I need this big thing, you know? Like, I had this big thing for God. And even though I was suppressing my passions for film, yeah, so I, like, getting this debate. debate of what does God want for my life? I start looking at enrolling in the local college. And I'm just so torn. And of course, someone prays over me and says, God wants you to go to Rodney Howard Brown's school. And so then I think, oh, that must be a confirmation from God. And so I packed my bags, loaded it up, and my little beetle moved to Tampa. And just like that, Sarah is off to the fine state of Florida to go to college, also known

this cult indoctrination. Okay, so this supposed school is crazy. Online, it's called River University. And it says, and I quote, River University is not a traditional Bible school. It's a Holy Ghost training center, birthed specifically for those whose strongest desire is to know Christ and make him known.

And somehow this guy, he got the entire school accredited. On the website, it actually says, River University is recognized by the Florida State Legislature, as an incorporated entity of higher learning with the authority to offer undergraduate degrees. Terrifying. River University will equip students to enter the ministry with the fire of God to win souls, shake nations, and take territory for the kingdom.

However, at the bottom, it states, it is important to note that neither the state of Florida nor the United States federal government accredits any institution of higher learning. All accrediting agencies are private organizations. It's all truly bad shit. And guess what? The accredited organization, it's right here in California, and you can drive to it.

I think it's in Riverside. Let's go check it out. Let's go take a trip to this accreditation nation. They position it as a school that will teach you how to be in ministry, how to be effective for the kingdom of God. So you apply, and there's a tuition at the time it was 2000 for the full. school year, and they could scholarship you where you basically do work study to pay off the tuition. I think it was like the second week of attending. It was like early on. They do a revival

week to get everybody on fire. So people are getting prayed for and God is moving. And then they also had an LSD conference, which is love sex and dating. I actually believe that a genuine LSD conference would have been much more interesting. I agree. thanks Liz appreciate that vote any others Rob I'm scared of LSD so I'm going to say no yeah I've done my share and I don't think I ever want to do it again too bad they don't offer LSD at the LSD conference might make it tolerable there was definitely a lot regarding dating and sex you cannot be alone with the other gender if you weren't married so that would be my introduction to this radical place that I I thought was changing my life. You're in classes five days a week. You go for three years, total, to get your bachelor's. I think mine at the time was Bachelors of Theology, which was kind of bogus because we didn't

really just focus on theology. We focused on a bunch of other flutie stuff. It's all flutie stuff. Since Sarah attended, they have expanded their schools. They have the River School of Worship, the River School of Government, the River Culinary Institute and the River School of Media. But of all of these, quote, schools, in the first year, all of their classes are the same. And we will share them with you, but maybe Rob, you can put them on speed or something

because it's a ton. So it's basically just a full year of indoctrination. The classes are the anointing, authority of the believer, Bible doctrines, book of acts. Christian foundations one and two Christian lifestyles. Faith one. Submission and authority. Hmm. Gifts of the Spirit, godly character.

The Gospels, seeing Jesus, Heavenly Vision. Helps and the local churches. The Holy Spirit. Introduction to government. Introduction to revival studies. Matters of the heart, personal development, prayer one, soul-winning one. Stewardship one, worship as a lifestyle, and then they actually have English composition, which, I mean, that's one class. You have to learn how to write, I love Jesus.

Yeah, exactly. Also, that's a lot of classes for the first year of school. Normally, what, a college freshman is taking five, maybe six this semester, intro to psych, English 101, maybe a math requirement, something easy like Rocks for Jocks. I took Rocks for Jax, guys. Yeah, I'm sure you did, and it's helped you in this world. Also, they have a culinary school, so how does the class soul-winning one help you better cook an egg? What does soul-winning even mean? Oh, we'll get there, Rob.

this website is crazy well I'll be sure not to visit it so like one class is about church history and another class is how to be an effective ministry leader or pastoral care one class was called love walk the first class you take is submission to authority

so that one was a big deal a few of the classes were actually watching DVDs from Pastor Rodney so we didn't even have a teacher Your whole class is DVDs of indoctrination from him. Rodney Howard Brown. Now, he's not a small man.

He's got slick back hair. He's always smiling, but not in a comforting way. Yeah, I'd say he could be played by, like, James Gandalfini, rest in peace. But with like a west side Chicago used car salesman vibe. That's apt, yeah. Right? Like, picture a light gray suit, sort of a loud pattern tie. The suit isn't very fitting.

It's more like a 1980s suit. Sometimes a random Hawaiian shirt or, you know, even a sweatshirt with a baseball cap when he's with the cool kids preaching outside, you know? He's so cool. Yeah, so he grew up very Pentecostal. I believe his dad might have been a preacher or something. I don't know. He, in fact, did grow up Pentecostal in South Africa. And yes, his father was indeed a preacher. So Rodney came, told by the Lord, to leave South Africa, where he grew up, to come to America with $300 in his pocket. America needed to be saved.

and it needed revival. So that's how Rodney ended up over here. I think it was interesting. Like, definitely in the first few years, I saw him as the man of God. He comes in a room. It's like a celebrity being there. He has, like, armor bears and bodyguards or whatever, you know, servants, slaves, a whole harem to follow him around, do whatever he tells him.

And so I was just like, well, shit, did he just look at me? Did he just speak to me? Like, he was like a king. So in his sermons, he's always talking about the fire God, fire this, Fire that. It's his old thing. In Pentecostal circles, that fire means the fire of the Holy Ghost. Supposed proof you've been touched by God. In Rodney's services, it looks like laughing fits.

There's collapsing, they're staggering around as if you're drunken. He always talks about being drunk with the Holy Spirit. But for Rodney, that fire also comes from something much darker. Yeah, his daughter had cystic fibrosis. and died on Christmas Day. So I managed pretty traumatic for him. They did pray for her after she passed and tried to pray her back to life.

And that's a big thing, is trying to pay her the dead back to life. She didn't come back to life. So he never associated God as being responsible. Just Satan's fault. Unfortunately, he turned that into something so angry, or maybe angrier, where it's like, the ends is, what, 100 million souls?

So the means is let's abuse people. and use people to get to that so I can have revenge on Satan and make him suffer for what he did to my daughter. That's been his message a lot. So when Sarah says 100 million souls, that's not a metaphor. That's Rodney's literal mission.

He preaches that he wants to win 100 million souls for Christ. It started in the 90s after his daughter died. He framed it as a revenge on Satan. You took my daughter, I'm going to take a million souls from you. But in his mind, no cost is too high, no abuse too extreme, if it gets him one step closer to that goal. And how does one get these souls? Well, you win them, of course. Right away, you're trained to be a soul winner, so you have to go to their soul winning once a week.

You go out on the streets and tell people about Jesus. So you ask them questions, you know, if you were to die today, where would you go? and then you would pray for them and then ask them, well, you wouldn't ask them, and you would tell them to say this prayer with you. They all need to say the prayer because they're not saved until they say this prayer. And then you would put a little dash on your little soul count card because there's really important in this ministry. Like, we've got to have those numbers.

We've got to announce on Sunday how many souls we got saved this last week. Check, check, check. 383,8288. Only 99,616,172 more to go. Yeah, that's only 1,400 NFL stadiums worth of people left to save. Be right back. We had such a delightful time last week with Was I an occult playhouse. We're doing it again.

Tonight, a double feature. Act 1. The Chill of Autumn. Oh, Tyler, the air is crisp. The leaves are turning. Yet beneath my oversized sweater and baggy jeans lies only discomfort. Oh, fear not, Liz, for beneath every sweater, every flannel, every autumn coat, there should be meandies. Yes, meandies, they're crafted from micromodal. Oh, I love micromodal. Yes, as cozy as a warm embrace, they are. I, in fact, am being cradled at this very moment by the delightful feel of their core boxer briefs. Did I say too much?

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Yeah, okay, so the week in the life of a student of River Bible College was 9 a.m. It's classes and worked Monday through Friday and then go to the three different classes after Bible College was over. And so then I would go out on the streets at Ebor City. and tell people about Jesus for about an hour and a half. And then we would post flyers throughout the week about our outreach event where they would give away hot dogs and donate furniture and clothes and toys, raffle, firearms, like cars, you know, like all these things. And they would post them in the inner city communities and then bust them in.

And all these people would come to get their free furniture, giveaway, raffle, or gift cards. And they would be preached to message. and then given an opportunity to receive Jesus, and then they would get their things and leave. So that would be like a Saturday, potentially, and then Sunday was the whole day, so you didn't have a weekend.

And then you have a requirement for how much you serve. If I wasn't doing work study where I was paying off my tuition, I would be just working for free, giving my time to Jesus, because I wanted to please him and serve. And then it morphed like a year in about 2009, The female right-hand pastor who was like royalty at the church started taking a notice in my work ethic in soul winning and she decided, whoa, you could be my personal assistant. So like all cults, of course, there's a hierarchy. And Rodney has other preachers that are like mini Rodney's working directly under him.

And this woman that Sarah worked for was one of those people. And she was just as power hungry and just as cruel. So then I was basically her slave and was available on call 24-7. So I would rush in after classes, make her lunch for her and her kids or whoever. Sometimes I took care of the kids or get sent to clean her house. It was terrible. She was like a mean robot that was just so cruel and would just rebuke for everything. Anything done wrong, like if I put the thing, the wrong place, it was like you have a spirit of offense.

you're not operating excellence. You're not giving God your all. It's like worthy almost of hell. You know, you are just disrespecting the cross. I was constantly writing in my journals how it wasn't good enough for God. It breaks my heart just looking back at my journals, thinking of how often I was repenting for nothing. And it was like so ridiculous how, like, my self-worth was so low and destroyed

and how much I thought it was a bad person. I thought it was a bad person. Like, I should be in jail type of low. Like, that's how much bad I felt about myself. And there was no time for anything else. But she's young. She's human. And let's be honest, full of pheromones.

Oh, yeah, I definitely had crushes. Some had crushes on me. But I was definitely like, I'm dating Jesus. I want God's will. So I know God will choose my spouse, which is the whole doctrineation preached. You know, so they would have us dependent even on them to confirm whether it was God's will.

I was at the time talking to this guy. And then next time we met, he was like, I believe it's God's will for us to be married. And I believed it. And that's all it took. He was 10 years older than me. So I was 22. I was definitely safe right now. He was not attractive.

And I wasn't emotionally attracted to him. I thought he was anointed. He was a big soul winner. And he was chosen by God. And he had a calling on his life. Her boss essentially paired them. together. Because like Sarah, this man was also one of their bitches, getting underpaid and overworked. He was the lead on the soul winning for the Great Awakening tour. He was in charge of

putting the folders together, putting the maps of all the places we're going to go to. He was paid $500 a week. So during Sarah's first year at this, uh-huh, school, emphasis on the ha-ahem. So we officially started dating in December and then got engaged in February of 2010 and got married in June of 2010. But we already knew we were going to be married. Like, yeah, God told us. So, yeah, there was no romance. By the time we got married, I was like, I have no idea who this person is. We got married at the church building and it was a really long wedding ceremony that was just fucking full of religion and Jesus.

And yeah, we had a buffet. They, I had my friend do my hair and makeup, and it turned up. She, like, shaded off half my eyebrows. And the dress I got because I was at Applebee's, and this girl was like, oh, you're getting married. I have a wedding dress if you want it. My fiance cheated on me, and I'll give it to you for $300. So I thought it was from a Lord. Or from the world's saddest episode of say yes to the dress.

Just say no to this dress. I would say if your Applebee's waitress comes up to you offering a dress that she didn't wear because her fiancé cheated on her. Not the right energy. Yeah, no. I would say no to that and yes to another Applebee's margarita. Yum. So it was like partially handed off at the bottom.

It looked really bad. I did not feel pretty on my own wedding day. But I did love this guy. I did not emotionally. So you could tell that in our roboticness and our photos. I was just like, this is God's will. It's even our wedding night. It was terrible.

So we didn't have sex before marriage. and I felt gross after having sex and I actually thought I hated sex after being married to the guy. I thought I hated sex. Like I thought, well, I guess sex isn't for me. Now, I understand how Christians don't sleep with each other prior to marriage, but I don't understand how Sarah never visited her fiancé's apartment prior to the marriage.

But when she finally did, she learned a bit about his habits. Yeah, I remember after we got back from the honeymoon and we're going to get his stuff, I couldn't even see the floor in this room. like it was so gross and little did I know he was so messy it was like a hoarder but without the hoarding stuff it was so disgusting so we got his literal shit almost and moved into a new place and moved to him together yeah and I lived in that squalor for 12 fucking years and slowly he would reveal his financial problems like he had two tax liens he didn't pay taxes for like two years he had a car repossessed and this is an introduction to him And, you know, after we were married. And this was a sanctified marriage by the Lord, according to that church. When they say God works in mysterious ways, I'd say, yes, very mysterious ways. That's the catch-all, isn't it?

He just works in mysterious ways. My father used to say that all the time. Whenever I'd question him, I'd be like, well, why? Well, the Lord works the mysterious ways. ways. But why? Because the Lord works a mysterious ways.

Well, can they be a little less mysterious? Maybe he can just give us a hint. Come on. Why? Mysterious ways. Mysterious ways. Mysteriousways.com. Is it taken?

Rob's checking right now. Mysteriousways. It is taken. It's got to be taken. Actually, Bono owns it. Mysteriousways. com, where you too can get a. an undergraduate degree.

Welcome back to was I an occult playhouse, and now our second act. A tale not of undergarments, but of elegance, of warmth, of transformation. Tyler, my closet. Look, it's barren. No. My coats are threadbare. My silks are stained. Must I choose between quality and coin.

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Oh, you broke character. Sorry. And Curtin. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. So if you all are out there wondering, what did Sarah do for her first summer break home? Well, guess what guy? there is no summer break at this, quote, school.

In fact, you never really go home for any break. In the summer, you actually stay and guess what you do? You work for the church. You sure do. And then you intern there. And guess what? For lots of money. No.

No. Obviously. So that in the future, you will now know how to wipe somebody else's asshole with holy wipes. Internship is you pick a ministry or you get assigned a ministry. Really, you don't really get much of a choice. I mean, it goes from children's, to hospitality, to janitorial was an internship.

Like actually working in cafe was an internship opportunity. I mean, it's basically you're just running the church. So there's a lot of opportunities to be free labor to keep growing the church. This is part of the educational experience, yes. Yeah, working full time, not getting paid. So I do my internship in the outreach department. I became the outreach pastor's right-hand person. I was in charge of doing everything he asked.

I even ran home and did his dry cleaning, just anything. Yeah, really intense. So I do that for a year as an intern. And then I graduated. And she went out into the world with her shiny new, hard-earned degree, ready to conquer entry-level corporate America. And then I did another year under him. Oh, so after the other year.

she went out into the world bright-eyed full of ambition her resume hot off the printer so then i got hired into the corrections department in 2013 oh the productions department perfect oh wait at the church liz at the church oh so she stayed right where she was and worked for her quote college called college the college that won't let you graduate Ever. By the way, the River College does not have a mascot. I checked. But their logo is a river. I did camera, and then I became in charge of the Productions Department on staff.

First time ever on staff to make $400 a month. A what? A month? In case you aren't good at math, that's $100 a week. That's $20. a day. That is $2.50 an hour. Yeah, well, that math only works if Sarah was actually working only 40 hours a week. Newsflash, triple that. That is actually bullshit. Four hundred dollars a month. Disgusting. That's pittance. That's not even... It's disgusting. My day a staff member

would start at 7.30 all the way through the end of service. The service wouldn't be over till 10. And then, oh, we got to wrap up. So that's another hour. So 11.30, pretty much you don't leave for eight days, Sunday through Sunday, over 100 hours. Because I isn't making money. I was dependent on the Lord providing. So, like, there was a food pantry at the church with dry goods and often expired food. That was the throwaways from stores.

And sometimes there's bugs in it. But that was provided from the Lord. Meanwhile, as Sarah and others are slaving for the Lord, money for the church while it rolls in there's definitely a heavy message on giving they do watch ties they know who's giving what and how much yeah so there's a huge pressure to give as much as you can if anything empty your bank account you know i gave away my engagement rings i know another girl who gave away her car one time he was like you know you have louis baton bags are those more important than the lord so what are people doing dumping out their shit and throwing them There are bags on the altar. You know, like there's people from the bus ministry who would give away their shoes and they would just pray over it and then sell it on eBay.

The way they handled money was shady. I remember one time they did a big offering for cameras and raised over $70,000. And then they came to me and said, Sarah, we need to update the equipment. You have $10,000 budget. Huh? Wait, I thought it was $70,000. And hey, once you run one cult,

you might as well run another one. I love me some MLMs. Yeah, so he's really into MLMs. He ties it in with spiritual stuff like, oh, the Lord will bless you if you join my MLM. Little do you know, you're joining and he's making money off you. There is so many different MLMs I would hear of coming through. When I first got there, it was on a grape juice MLM. Amway was a big one.

That fucking pisses me off that he was black diamonds for Monavi. because he did that off the back of his followers. There are people who are trusting him in the Lord, and he made money off of them. He's worth a lot of money. He has a house that God gave him for $100,000, but now it's worth $2.8 million. He got gifted a Bentley for a birthday once,

you know, just like he's gets sports cars, and yet these people are given their heart and sweat and soul and blood and tears and even lies for this ministry. It's like a legal form of labor trafficking. is what I went through and what so many are going through. You're coercively convincing people through deception to do this free labor for this ministry or cheap labor. Like people work for 17 to 20 grand a year salaries

and work 100 plus hour weeks, you know, giving everything to this fucking place. On top of 20% to the church, you know, or emptying their bank accounts and making it so his mansion is still beautiful and maintained. And on top of all that, you have to listen to him talk. for hours. So Pastor Rodney's services are notoriously known for being about three hours or more.

And he is so proud that his services are longer and everybody else's have dry, structured services that are short. You do get burned in these services. Like when you have Rodney just droning on and on and on, the gracious gift of God, the inner fire that is in you by the means and laying on my hands with those ills and ordination, for God did not give us the spirit a timidity of cowardice or craving and cringing and fear. And on, on and on. He's like not at preaching anymore. He's just going off on just ranting. Fear, but he's given us the spirit of power and of love and a calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control. Do not blush and be ashamed. Dude, we need to go to bed. We got school tomorrow. But it wasn't just fear that Rodney was peddling. And people are overcome with the

spirit and they can't walk sometimes or they do weird dances or crawl or goofy shit like they're drunk people will just start breaking out in laughter because it's the joy of the lord the holy ghost laughter you're drunk in the spirit according to the book of acts where you know the holy spirit came down and everybody started speaking in tongues and one scripture says they look like they're drunk with wine and then the guy's like no it's the new wine It's just laughing, you know, like even now, like just says laughing, you know, and you just let it just keep going. Or even me, there's times that I didn't get to push out the laughter. Like, I felt like there's something wrong with me.

I felt like a terrible person. So Rodney was big into politics and defining the world for us. So definitely he's big into the government being controlled by money and Satan. and there's all these conspiracies, and so there would be times like government would take over the sermon. The plan of the United Nations is to take us to martial law so that they can come off to the Second Amendment. We have United Nations troops on our shoulders right now. This is not a game. That's why they want anarchy.

That's why they want there to be problems. I would dread being there in the service because I felt like so afraid. I didn't feel good. I was bored to tears. I just hated being there when he would just go off and on about the political stuff. So then they have to bring in military. We are not going to have it. We are not tolerating it in our country.

Absolutely not. Even his sermons, like you could see this energy of like anger, like, er, I shout out, you know, just like this energy. Like anger would be demonstrated, whether it's in the services, like yelling at an usher because he stepped in the way or didn't do something fast enough. I'm not running for office. I'm in my office, I'm a preacher. You can flip me off all you want,

and I'm not going to stop preaching. I'll take your finger and stick it up your note. Welcome to the river where anything can happen. And then in private, you'd see him just lash out at people. Like, he's chewed out people for the steak being made wrong. Everybody is absolutely afraid of this man. Like, I just called out so many times publicly. But he, like, chewed out the production department

because they weren't performing up to par. When I was in charge of productions, though, when I was getting these orders from the Lord, from him, finding myself just, like, at odds, like, I don't have the resources. I don't have the people. I don't have that time. So if I spoke out or did anything that could be remotely critical of what was wanted,

I would be reprimended. I'll be put in my place. Definitely with a few scriptures thrown in my way, I'd be yelled at. So I started feeling this dislike for Rodney, definitely in the last year. Yeah, working in productions definitely broke my respect for him because it was just like, you know, if this is what God wanted, then this is terrible. This is abuse. So I would just feel this awe and fear.

You know, so it's that cognitive dissonance, right? It's that awe of this holy man talking to me, but this absolute terror of what he could do to me. My identity was Rodney's identity that he wanted me to have. Your whole identity before is gone. That's what makes it so much a cold is it takes your identity away and it remakes it who you are. I lost who I was.

I didn't really have strong friendships. My whole life was the ministry, and I had my husband, which was not even a relationship. He didn't have a way to support me emotionally at all. He was just a robot. I felt like I was not in reality. The only thing that made a marriage for him was sex. You know, as long as we had that, we had a marriage. And I'd feel guilty if I didn't.

And he still said it wasn't enough. I did it because I also didn't want him to feel rejected. But I felt so empty. I felt gross. I had to shower every time. Like, I just felt so gross. We'll be right back. This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

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And yeah, how to earn it. And it's not just about chores. There's stuff in the app that teaches kids how to budget and even invest. And it's all with you in control, which, let's be honest, is ideal. You know, and kids actually like it. I mean, my son gets so excited when he sees money in his wallet from a job well done. And he also, he invests money in it and check. on his investments. He's such a little stock pirate.

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So Sarah has been attending her, quote, college, interning for the church, soul winning for the church, and now giving up hours upon hours for the church. And as time goes on internally, Sarah unravels until she reaches her breaking point. I was dealing with depression, trauma, PTSD, and it was all put under the rug. in the name of the ministry, I was non-existent. I think when someone at the church who came from the film world said, Sarah, you need to go to film school. Like that was the final confirmation. I want to stop being handicapped in my passion.

I want to pursue my passion. That's what got me out. So I put in my notice. We both did, me and my husband at the time, put in our notice. He was critical at the church at the time, too. He was tired of being so stressed out. And it was like my tail was between my legs. I felt like a failure.

We moved to Winter Park, Florida, which is on the east side of Orlando. That's where Full Cell University is. And really, it saved my life going to that college. And pursuing my dreams did, too. And it was exactly what she needed to do. You see, cults never encourage individuality. It's never about you and what's best for you. It's always about the cause and what's best for the leader.

And after years of being told what to believe, how to live. Who to marry? She suddenly found herself in a place designed to do the opposite. Help her discover her own voice. At full sale, you're not memorizing sermons or pushing flyers or taking useless classes. You're building worlds on sound stages and editing bays, even in their full downtown backlot. And they want you to graduate and get a job, not stick around. I've been there. I've been to full sale. I know a teacher there very close, and I got invited to speak there about my films.

And walking through those sets and those studios, you realize how much possibility and dreaming lies within that space. So for Sarah, who had her identity stripped away, it wasn't just school. It was a place that gave her permission to dream again. The school was an hour and 45 minutes away. I know I looked. It was too far to go to church there.

They guilted us for not coming. Sometimes they would make comments about us not visiting or attending Sunday morning service. I was still brainwashed leaving, even with knowing how terrible that was. I was still trying to pursue God and do the right thing. So then I graduated August of 2016. I got in a very unhealthy friendship or working relationships because I couldn't see the toxic signs of the cult. And I would just get into these where people would just be in control of me. And then I get offered this job.

was a media director at a church, and it took me taking a job that was similar, and I would have panic attacks all the time, where I felt like someone was in control of me. I got another job, but I didn't last there very long because the CEO of the company, he reminded me of Pastor Rodney. Does high standards, the gaslighting, as soon as a situation happened that revealed that part of him, I put in my notice. I couldn't handle it. I was so triggered. I'd be in the state of paranoia all the time. That's when I realized, like, there's something wrong. I felt the sense of hopelessness, and then I just collapsed mentally, spiritually, stopped

going to church, and so then I finally sought therapy and was told I had PTSD and figured out I had been in a fucking cult. So what confirmed it was me Googling what is a cult and just seeing the list of criteria for a cult, and I was just like, holy shit. Like, this is a real list, and he checks the boxes. And when I realized it was a cult, I just felt broken. It was that grieving process for the first time, like, everything died. My spiritual identity, everything, like, everything broke.

I dealt with severe depression, anxiety, like crazy. Little did I know how much my ex-husband was part of that anxiety, and definitely PTSD. He was still trying to live the life of the cult, and that was his identity. And that was his identity, and he was still trying to travel and do soul-winning stuff. He was, like, a record that would just play the same song over and over again. Like, that was really the separation in that marriage even more. We didn't have anything to hide behind, like school and ministry. And my depression sunk so low.

I was, like, sick. I would just be on the couch so depressed. I was, like, sick. And he would come in and want sex. Dude, I just told you what I'm going through. And he just, no, we got to bang it out. you're just a body you're just a vagina you know like that's the way I felt it and I remember just looking at a corner and just touching the wall the wall is real right the wall is real but it was like

like being in a grocery store with a gunman every single day just where is that gunman just that anxiety every fucking day but as soon as I made that decision in my mind a divorce it was like the gun was gone the gunman's still there but the gun was gone he lost his power over me and it was liberating. It was the last tie to that cult church. I got a divorce in 2022, and that was the first time ever I felt so mentally free. And Sarah rose from those ashes like the badass that she is

and found her fire, not some angry cult leader's idea of what that is. So the good stuff post-divorce was my career picked up. I sold a script and got contracted to direct a feature, which is in the works now. I started a nonprofit that uses the visual arts to fight human trafficking. It's a way for me to have a voice about my own story. If I can fight for the dreams and identities of these girls, you know, if I can help prevent future victims, it gives me a voice for my own story.

That's one of the things I definitely grieved when I left. Like, I lost so much. I couldn't even figure out, I love film. I love telling stories. I love what I do now. And I lost all that time. I could have started 10 years earlier if they didn't take away my identity. It was like someone stealing from me.

I also got remarried to an amazing man. We met online on Hinge. He's an ex-Morman. Okay, Diler, here you go. Yeah, that's me. Ex-Morman over here. And I remember just feeling so triggered. And I told him, I was like, I'm so traumatized.

I don't think this will work out. because he was currently still a Mormon at the time. But I was also like, you know what? I don't care what anyone fucking believes anymore. If you're a good person, I want to get to know you. You're more important than that, you know? So that's why I started dating him. And then eventually he left the church and we got closer.

So dating him was like dating a human being. Like, wow, did he just remember what I said before and consider my feelings? It's not a one-sided relationship anymore. And sex is amazing. Holy shit, sex is amazing when it's two people who love each other. I don't know, you could say it's a woman thing, like being turned on emotionally. Or perhaps it's just that all ex-Mormons are sensational in the sack. Yeah, so we're super happy.

And just we both have the same outlook about religion. We feel so deceived with religion and faith. I can't tell you how many times I've cried, how many times I've just swore and anger at God about how violated I feel and deceived and, yeah, manipulated. And being able to talk to someone like my husband has been huge too. Like you wouldn't judge me even when I was criticizing God when he was very into God.

You know, like it was just very helpful in my healing journey is to be listened to. And I think that was the hardest thing and the most traumatizing thing is when I tried to tell my story to Christians, and they would just say, you just need to forgive. Or there's no perfect people, and they wouldn't listen to my story. So people just need that compassion and empathy, and they need you to listen and just validate. And if anything can give a hug and say, you know what, I don't understand, but, you know, I'm sorry for what you've been through, whatever it is. But don't give them solutions, like what I need from you is just love

and you to listen, you know, like just hear me with empathy. That's all I'm asking for. you know. So where is Rodney Brown today? Well, as you can imagine, he's still preaching. He's still streaming. He's still making lots of money. You may remember the preacher that got arrested in early 2020 for holding in-person services during COVID.

A local pastor who's gaining national attention has now bonded out of jail. He was arrested today for packing hundreds of people into a megachurch on Sunday. his umbrella ministry revival ministries international is still recruiting for that same insane goal of 100 million souls framed as a global mission you can join at revival dot com he kept going bigger than ever online and on stage which is why stories like sarah's matter if you're part of something that keeps making their dream your dream Here's your sign, guys. Step back and ask whose voice you're serving. And then go find yours. Go find yours. Next week, we'll be back with a story of a woman who signed up for a yoga class

and didn't realize she was walking into not only not a yoga class, but a rebranded cult that racks up tens of millions of dollars every year, hiding right there in plain sight. in very plain sight. And I would say that none of the people that were like really integrated into the organization seemed happy to me and they hadn't cured the things

that they were hoping to cure because the cult makes the promise of being able to cure diseases, which is extremely problematic. And people, yeah, they just seemed dimmer, they seemed unhappy, they seemed subservient. Don't forget, our Patreon is amazing and fun and just a great thing to look at. And with a little donation, you can help me avoid going back to my previous job of editing Titanic.

I thought you made little cups for baseball shorts. That's what I do. I make cups. You do know there was quite a controversy in my home state of Utah where they were editing Titanic videos. It actually, they would edit the Titanic videos and take out the sex scene and the boob scenes. And I did not know that. Yeah, and then they would sell the tapes. And then they were sued by the studio and it made a big deal about free speech, et cetera, et cetera. Do you know what they called it?

It was Clean Flicks, I believe. Oh, actually, I saw this before. It was actually just called Anick. Anick. Yeah, because they took the tit out. They took the what out? It took the tit out. It's just called Anic.

This is Was I an Occult. Thanks for listening. Was I an occult is written host, produced by La La La La La La La. Lizzie Coozy. And that guy. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Tyler Mason. And sound edited and et cetera, et cetera, by da da da da da.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Rob para. And cue laughter. take out your night purify me don't spare my life crucify me Hi, I'm Jesse Prey Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest, tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long form, narrative-driven, and deeply researched,

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