Was I In A Cult? - The Holdeman Mennonite Cult: “The Truth Behind the 'Humble' People”

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of sexual abuse.You’ve seen them — maybe at the airport with pamphlets, or quietly shopping at a farmer’s market. Dressed in starched shirts, tie-back bonnets, pressed skirts. Singing in gentle harmonies. Smiling softly. The Holdeman Mennonites, they’ll tell you, are just humble people of faith. Quiet. Nonviolent. Pure.But purity can be a costume. And obedience, a weapon.Today’s guest, Billy Holdeman-Bass grew up in that world.And there were things that didn’t get sung about.Doors that stayed locked.And a question his mother never answered: “Why do you always follow me to the bathroom?”Behind the hymnals and homemade apple pies lies a truth that can’t stay buried forever. In this episode, that truth begins to speak.________Follow Us for More Culty Content:Instagram & TikTok: @wasiinacultFollow Billy’s parody account: @holdememesSupport the Show:This show is listener-powered. If Billy’s story moved you—please rate, review, and share. Thank you to our Patreon members!! We appreciate you. And if you would like ad-free episodes and exclusive content, consider joining our Patreon.Share Your Story:Have a cultic experience of your own? We want to hear it.Email us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I've had so many people who know who I am in life now asking questions, wanting to know more. And I also think whether it's this cult or another, it's important that people outside of these cults have an understanding of what's happening inside. Anyone who is in a cult can have their eyes open, and anyone leaving a cult can use that as a jumping off point to do really amazing things that people who hadn't been through all of that would never have the gumption or resiliency to be able to do. Welcome back everyone to Was I in a Cult?

Where the cults just keep coming, unfortunately. I'm Liza Yakuzy. And I'm Tyler Meesom. And now we have covered a lot of types of cults on this show, have we not? Yeah, sex cults, MLM cults, self-help cults, yoga cults. There was a pole dancing cult episode, oh yeah. Dumb fucking potato.

Now some cults are more well-known, you know, Scientology, NXIVM, you know, the one with the spaceship and the matching track suits. But not all cults come with celebrities and branding rituals or a four-part series on Netflix or a mass suicide to, quote, shed your earthly vehicle in preparation for a spaceship to take you to a more advanced civilization. You laugh, but I bet you they're laughing at you right now, Tyler, from Planet Zop Bop. Yeah, well, at least someone's laughing at this podcast, Liz. And I'm going to start blaming everything fucked up in the world on Heaven's Gate.

I'm looking at you, Applewhite. Apple, Applewhite. Applepiece. Applepiece. I'm going to blame it on Heaven's Gate and Apple white. Applebees. Applebees. I'm gonna blame it on Heaven's Gate and Applebees. But some cults, guys, are more unassuming. The kind where the member could, I don't know, be your next door neighbor or the vendor at your farmer's market.

Or the kind-eyed folks handing you pamphlets at an airport. The ones that dress in modest clothes. Who preach simplicity and nonviolence, who sing beautiful four-part harmonies, and tell you they're living the pure life. Of course, we're talking about Mumford and Sons. Great new album, by the way. No, we're not, we're not talking about,

we're talking about who? The Mennonites. And today, specifically, the Holden Mennonites. Right, today we hear the story behind the head coverings, the hymnals and the casseroles and spaghetti wafting through the fellowship halls of Kansas. The truth behind the humble plain people. Please welcome to the show

our very kick-ass guest, Billy Holderman. ["Crucify Me"] Take out your knife Purify me Don't spare my life Crucify me So I grew up near Yoder, Kansas. We moved to western Kansas to Montezuma. We lived on a small farm. We had some animals and crops. My grandparents were rural follower people and they very much believed in keeping things

looking just right. You know, we had a white house and everything was mowed just nice and the flowers were out. I don't know how to describe it, but there's what I call a dignified simplicity look that Mennonites are known for. And as you can imagine, little relaxed downtime in this community was about as welcome as a woman at the pulpit. Oh, you managed another cult that's sexist. Hmm.

That's a shock. A day in the life, we'd get up pretty early, we'd take care of the animals. And then we generally just had a lot of chores because idle hands are working in the devil's workshop. For children, play is allowed with certain confines on it. In the country, we'd bike until our legs fell off, you know, we'd play in the mud, we'd go out and work in the garden, we worked until we went to school, came home, did chores, and during hay season we hauled hay, and that was kind of what I did. When you wake up and when you go to bed, your whole family is going to get together and have a devotional time, and singing is involved, some scripture and prayer.

and have a devotional time, and singing is involved, some scripture and prayer. So your family is almost supposed to operate like a mini church in a way, led by the patriarch of the family. And say the dad is not available if there is a son, then he will leave because a woman cannot teach. In Mennonite world, singing is very big. Singing is a regular activity that is happening all of the time, every day, morning and evening. And we sing these warning and judgment songs, you know, and we would just sing it and sing it again

and again and again. There's hundreds of song books with all manner of songs. And many of them really don't have that much to do with God. They're more about the church, which says a lot. Sometimes I feel discouraged and I cannot understand the way the Father feels. But in the evening, like, our whole social calendar was pretty well decided, you know. Tuesday evening we would come to church and pack tracts and we'd just walk in circles, packing these bundles of tracts that were getting sent somewhere for people to try to

proselytize. Tracts are like little folders with some sort of condemning message in them or evangelistic message. You know, just some light, inspiring messaging like, Reject salvation and face eternal condemnation. Only through complete obedience can you avoid the lake of fire where you will burn in hell eternally. Oh, and try a strawberry. They were just picked this morning. Wednesday, we were supposed to be going to Bible study.

You know, Thursday night there might be something. Friday night, the youth will be going and singing somewhere. Saturday, we might be working on some sort of project, on Sunday you have church all morning, you have to typically go somewhere or host other people for lunch, then you have a little time where you might take a nap or rest or sing, and then you go to evening service and we had what we call a night lunch after. So like food is a really big part of many gatherings and we were serving food.

And I remember just thinking, you know, just the smell in here, the fellowship hall, all this food, I can still smell the spaghetti that was, you know, being served. That's a core memory for me. I'll never forget that. But that's what I've learned since leaving is all of these cults have very good things.

Most of them have amazing food. And there's something to that. There is something to that. And then you go to evening service. Oh, cults, they do love snacks and food, don't they? Then after evening service... Wait, there's more? Jesus, when do these kids get to sleep? If you're in the youth, you're going to somebody else's house till 11 o'clock at night, and then you get up the next day and do it again. And heaven forbid, revivals are called and suddenly we're going to church every single day and hearing sermons about how horrible

we all are, how we deserve to die, and if it weren't for the blood of Jesus, you know, where would we be? Revivals in the Mennonite community are multi-day events, usually about a week long, where you go to church every night and hear fiery sermons about sin, judgment and why you're not good enough. It's basically a spiritual Coachella. But with delicious casseroles. That's hard because Coachella has great casseroles. They're green bean casserole.

Really, I saw Mumford and Sons had a green bean casserole. Really, I saw Mumford and Sons had a green bean casserole. They do believe that we are in the end times, and they would say, you know, Jesus could come tonight, and if you're unconverted, you will go to hell tonight. And the only way to escape hell is to obey every last thing that we say. Colts really need to figure out a new sales pitch. This one's a bit worn out. Yeah, similar to my Mormon underwear.

Very worn out. Or me talking about being a Mormon on this show. Also worn out. But there were times where I would just be sitting there sick to my stomach at what I was listening to. And I'm sure there were other people, but you cannot respond, you cannot react, you really can't leave.

And then at the end, there's communion. And for them communion isn't just the bread and the wine, but also feet washing, where you go in and the ministers and their wives wash people of the same sex's feet. Hey, that's a nice perk. Take notes, Catholics. And then they also practice what's called the Holy Kiss, which is basically you greet anybody who is the same sex as you who is also a member of good standing by kissing them And then usually there's a line of people waiting as you exit You have to kiss everybody and then when you come into church people kiss each other on the lips and some old men will

Really moisten them up Less nice. No one wants to be kissed on the lips by aunt Karen. Hmm. Not even uncle Joe That's nice. No one wants to be kissed on the lips by Aunt Karen. Not even Uncle Joe. Especially not Uncle Joe. But what Billy didn't mention is that before communion, you're examined, you're expected to confess sins, usually in private meetings with church leadership, you're told to make peace with anyone you've wronged, even if that means confronting them directly, and

you have to prove you're in good standing by living visibly, flawlessly, and submissively. And if you don't pass that test, you're excluded from communion and everyone sees it. You sit in silence while the others eat the bread, wash the feet, and kiss the lips. Yeah, it's public humiliation engineered to keep people obedient. It's a classic cult tactic, behavioral control through social shame. All cults do this bullshit. But the rules come out in very obscure ways because the church would say, you know, we

don't operate by man-made rules. You have to be a faithful member of this blood-bought church or else, and you need to dress right and do everything because if you do not comply with that then you have a spiritual problem we got to get you out of here but the women carry the bulk of it because even now they still have to make their own clothing to fit the church guidelines and they are the only Mennonites who wear the particular type of a folded tie-back head covering that looks like a fry basket. And they're the only ones who also wear the particular plain black tie down covering to

church on Sunday. There are about 2.1 million Mennonites located throughout the world, most of them, oddly enough, in Africa. But the ultra conservative Holdenman's number is around 25 25000, the vast majority living in small towns. For the most part, it's been the rule that being in the city will somehow corrupt you because you will get involved with worldly amusements. They're using televisions, they're playing sports, they're doing all this stuff like we got to get them out of there. It was around that same time when they decided we can't send our kids to public school.

So they, of course, had their own school. Is that what we're calling it? If you imagine public school in the 1960s, that's about how it is. I would say the education I got in reading, writing, and arithmetic was excellent. Now, when it comes to science, sexuality, any of those more complex matters or anything that would involve philosophy of any kind. After all that, we weren't really talk history, and the history we're taught was very much painted from the viewpoint of the church. And the textbooks that they get are already from a conservative Mennonite publisher, and then they cut out and paste and manipulate the books to censor everything that wouldn't agree with them. I'm given a book that's been whited out or the picture's removed.

And like when I was growing up, it was kind of discouraged if a book has pictures in it. Like my grandmother, she didn't even think the calendars on the wall should have a picture. You know, Liz, when I was a Mormon, I know, here it comes, right? We had to wear very specific, very long, very itchy underwear, tops and bottoms. It was like spiritual armor, if that armor was made with sandpaper and guilt. So when I left the church, I did the only logical thing. I took them off. I never looked back. And I mean, I didn't look back.

I didn't wear underwear for many, many years. I was- Why are you telling us this? I was just free balling through life like a breeze loving pioneer. Why are you saying this out loud? These are our friends. We talk about these things.

But at a certain point in your advancing years, not wearing underwear ceases to be sexy and mysterious, and you just kind of become a weird old man at Trader Joe's. Again, people are listening. This is an ad, come on. I figured, right? If I'm gonna start wearing underwear again,

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That's meandies.com slash colt, promo code colt. Meandies, because after years in Mormon underwear, by God, I deserve this. And everyone listening doesn't. Okay. And everyone listening doesn't. Okay, so last week in the episode about the David Emmanuel cult, I threw out a little fact. Which apparently isn't a fact, everybody. No, it isn't. It's a misnomer.

I threw out the misnomer that Mills End Park, located in Portland, Oregon, is the world's smallest park. Now, as pointed out by a very astute listener, Brett Iwataki, the smallest park in the world as of February of 2025 is in Nagazumi, Japan. And Brett is my new favorite person. Thank you for one-upping, Tyler. Since you're never able to. It is dubbed the Pocket Park by locals.

It's about 19 inches by 19 inches and was carved out in 1988 from leftover road construction space. Now, the brick base is topped with grass, a decorative stepping stone, two plaques, and a tiny wooden stool. But what about the leprechauns? Any leprechauns? No leprechauns yet. It was inspired by Portland's Mill Ends Park. A town planner decided to one-up the record back in the 80s, but it wasn't made official until 2024, when locals raised about 2.5 million yen. That's only $14,000 through donations and a hometown tax. Fourteen grand on a plot the size of my framed prom photo

at my mother's house. I must see that picture. You mustn't. Guinness finally certified the park in February of 2025. So Brett, I stand corrected. Thank you for keeping my tiny park facts current. That's so Brett. Love that guy. Totally.

Such a Brett move. Now let's get back to the Mennonites and find out where they came from. Mennonites as an origin actually comes from a place of sincerity and beauty, in my opinion. The go way back into Constantinian times and then even forward from there, 1500s in Europe, many of them were burned at the stake or hunted down and tortured. Even today, this concept of martyrdom is really big in the Mennonite world, but if you fast forward quite some time, of course we know that Mennonites and Amish people both made their way to North America,

and a lot of them really found a stronghold within the American Midwest, mostly because of the agribusiness opportunities. John Voldemort was part of what was simply just called the Mennonite Church, and he had gotten into some issues and discipline within the church. He had to get married pretty quick because he had made a girl pregnant. And in 1959, the idea of closeted abortions for religious conservatives, well, it didn't really exist yet. Right. And if they did, well, they were unsafe, they were illegal and deeply personal decisions controlled by patriarchal authority. Hmm. Cool. So not much has changed in almost 200 years.

Over time, he became convicted, like, I need to turn my life around, and he became obsessively obedient to rules. He traveled around and just kept trying to start up a new Mennonite group movement. It never really got a stronghold until Kansas. And even then, the group was pretty miniscule, and that separatist insular culture that we see in cults already was starting to take place. Now, if you're all confused by the Mennonite distinctions, you're not alone. But we don't fully understand it, and we don't claim to be able to break it down like a religious anthropologist. But here's what we can tell you. Mennonites are part of the Anabaptist tradition, which have the same roots as the

Amish. Which essentially means that they believe in adult baptism. Now, this came from the idea being that you get to, quote, choose your faith when you're old enough instead of having it decided for you as a baby. But you savvy listeners probably caught the irony because the years leading up to that so-called baptismal choice are steeped in indoctrination into an ideology that essentially strips you of just that, choice. That's true. And within the Mennonite world, there are dozens of these subgroups, from

progressive leaning to ultra-conservative. Now, some don't allow phones, but let me tell you, And within the Mennonite world, there are dozens of these subgroups, from progressive-leaning to ultra-conservative. Now, some don't allow phones, but let me tell you, some Mennonites do. And some of them even have social media accounts. And I mean, maybe even dare say they're kind of influencers or trying to be or trying to put on that front like, hey, Mennonites, they're just like us. And by us, I mean, stay at home moms with five plus children and a desperate need for connection with the outside world.

It's a bit weird, it's a bit sad, and mostly these videos just made me super uncomfortable. We're Mennonites. It's called a head covering. What does WAP stand for? Watermelon? Thanks. Pork. That's W-E-P-V-O-K. Help me. What does FAPS stand for? Umm, watermelon? Pork.

That's W-E-P-V-O-K-E. What does FML mean? Family... Must learn. We're Mennonites. I'm definitely allowed to have this phone. All the girls who grew up hearing that it was vain to want to dress up or look pretty,

did you know that Esther went through months of a beautifying process before appearing before the king? The feminine desire to want to look nice and be beautiful is a good desire because the human person is made to be like Jesus who is perfectly beautiful. I think putting an effort into your appearance isn't vain. Wanting to look beautiful isn't pride, it is how God created women.

We're Mennonites. No, we're not Amish. This might be the simplest dress that I have sewn to date. We're Mennonites. No, we're not Amish. This might be the simplest dress that I have sewn to date. We're Mennonites. Of course volleyball is our favorite sport. Mennonites are known for like cooking from scratch and gardening and canning and all the things. So now that like homesteading is becoming a trend, it's basically like Mennonites are trending. We were cool before it was cool. We're Mennonites. We're going to ask who your parents are.

Beliefs that we would hold that might be different than other denominations is we take scripture very literally and so if we see it in scripture that's what we do. For instance, the head covering. In 1 Corinthians 11 you read that passage and we do. For instance, the head covering. In 1 Corinthians 11, you read that passage and we feel it is for us today. You will not find divorce and remarriage within the Mennonites, at least not most Mennonites. I believe marriage is for life and if for some reason a couple does get divorced, especially in case of like abuse or something like that, that the spouse never remarries.

Now, the Haldeman Mennonites, or more formally, the Church of God in Christ Mennonite, fall deep into the conservative end of the spectrum. The Haldeman Church takes membership above everything else, and to become a member, you have to become baptized. To become baptized, you have to have what they would call a conversion experience, basically feeling so horrible, and you pray to God, and you feel as though you have been forgiven. And there's supposed to be this almost magical transformation

in your life at that point, And I've noticed most people's experiences were not magical or they were very grandiose and obviously a story. And they've created a very unique system of indoctrination and fear-mongering to get people to the point where they're willing to have this experience and become baptized. Because if you don't, you know, you're gonna be scorned, you're not gonna be invited or included, you're kind of shut out.

What I've noticed is cults thrive on exploitation, whether it's taking advantage of people who are in the group or taking advantage of people who are already oppressed in some way. And it's worth mentioning, majority of the people in this church are absolutely wonderful people, and even if everyone in the system was good,

the system itself is harmful. And that's how most cults are. It's not the people that's happening here, it's the system. Everything that was actually happening around me, we're good. I felt like my growing up church was actually a good place, and the people from church were good because our home was not always a very settled place. There is this myth within the Haldimand Church that because we're obedient, faithful Christ followers, that God honors that by allowing us to have peaceful homes. What I learned is, as long as you keep up the front, that's what matters.

But when you actually go home, there is a lot of dysfunction, as you can imagine. And I would say it's probably normal in most families that you're not really close with your family. Really, nobody's close to anybody because you just don't talk about anything that has to do with interpersonal things. We're always talking about the church all of the time. Like in our family, we weren't physically affectionate at all. My mother, occasionally, if she was like, she would sometimes, you know, she dealt with depression and she would sometimes have kind of bawling fits from time to time. Growing up, I really didn't have much of a relationship with my dad. He worked and worked and worked. Looking back now, I'm not sure that he and my mother really wanted to be married. You know, they they just never were really close.

When I was seven or eight, I think it was, my dad died. So in typical Mennonite fashion, the patriarch dies, suddenly your house is swarmed with women bringing food. The way they will show up for your physical needs is quite astounding. Yeah, we had hot food and we had plenty of things that were flash frozen, ready to be thrown in the oven later. And that was very much the way, you know, when somebody dies, you bombard them with this. But you don't ever actually talk about the grief. You just comfort them and you sing at them. So now you're probably wondering,

okay, we get the weird religious ideologies, but where does it get abusive? Well, I thought you'd never ask. Obedient children is your highest goal. They don't call it parenting. It's called child training. And from the outset, the goal is you need to break the will of your children, so that way they'll submit to God later when the time comes. And so physical abuse is normalized.

Spanking is condoned, but it's often much worse than that. Like, I was beaten and whipped as a youngster and that was just normal. Abuse is rampant in that church and in many Mennonite groups. And everyone just feels like the church isn't perfect, but this is the true church. They're an authority over you, so you just submit and God will take care of that. And I think that's one of many ways that abuse is perpetuated because you can't question. You can bring concerns up, but if they're brought up in the wrong way, then you are the one who's at fault. And most people who are victims of sexual

assault, they are the ones who are blamed. I myself, I experienced several instances of sexual abuse growing up, and it was never dealt with in any way. And it just, there was nothing you could do. There's nothing you could say. There was nowhere to talk to. Some of it was when I was really young and I really don't remember much. I just remember like bits and pieces.

There were just people in our congregation. One of the times it was somebody from another congregation. There's a lot of ways people can take advantage because everything is seen as this wholesome safe place, so like people's children aren't being monitored. And so we just had free reign and you'd be running around the church building and anyone who wanted to do anything to us, there's a thousand of these windowless Sunday school rooms and bathrooms full of stalls where people can be victimized. And when things do happen, it is seen as a bad thing to report outside of the church. You do not report to the police.

When things go wrong, we're just supposed to be quiet and accept it. And, you know, it's only when it violates the quiet atmosphere or it violates the witness of the church that something will be done about anything. The church recently passed several lawsuits set some guidelines for how we would respond or well not even respond but prevent abuse from happening and their answer was you know make sure you keep watch of your children no matter where you are. The rest of it was make sure you dress your children away that is not going to cause people of it was make sure you dress your children away that is not going to cause people to lust.

They have this idea that somehow you're responsible because you didn't follow the dress guidelines correct enough that somebody was able to find you sexually appealing. That's your fault. When I was really young, I did bring some concerns to my mother and I know she brought them to the staff,

but nothing was done. And so she just, you know, to my mother and I know she brought them to the staff but nothing was done and so she just you know when we would go to church or some other occasion we weren't allowed to go to the restroom by ourselves anymore we always had to go with her so she tried to do what she could and even with my mother people in the church did not feel like she was living right. My mother was a very fierce person like looking back now I was always ashamed of that because that's not ideal within that society.

But I'm really proud of her now because despite everything she had been through, she was fiercely devoted to protecting us children. We'll be right back. Bozaina Cult is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game, Tyler? Shifting a little money here, a little there, hoping it all works out? No, I don't, Liz, but with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive,

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So Billy was a young kid when his father passed. And then a few years later, his world got shaken up once again. I think I was nine or ten, so I was pretty young. And my mother, she, I don't know exactly what happened with her, but she had a bit of a freak out. I think part of it is there was some ministers' wives from one of the congregations around who visited her and She became extremely defensive. She became very angry with them and I wasn't involved with the conversation I just kind of overheard them outside talking on the porch but soon after that she's like we're moving away and

It it was like you pack now like she's just like I'm done It was like, you pack now. Like, she's just like, I'm done. My grandmother always pointed out how she was rebellious. And so I think that was just always the way my mother was. And ultimately, she wouldn't keep her mouth shut about things that she saw that were going on. But she got to a point where she didn't want to be among Mennonites of any kind anymore.

And so we moved to Colorado. Little did she know that there was a new church plant just a few miles from what we moved to Colorado. Little did she know that there was a new church plant just a few miles from what we moved. That time in Colorado was a very special time because I became an island and there was no one holding me to the church rules. When I was a teenager, I had so many opportunities, but I was still very naive and very frightened, very scared, and I was on my own. This was my exploration adventure time. I went out and I had fun with people. I rode the public bus, which the first time was absolutely terrifying, because here I

am by myself with all of this. But I rode bike everywhere. I went swimming in a public pool. I went and surveyed in the mountains and hiked and explored Colorado State University. Go Rams! And things at home with mom were tough. Yeah, so I actually ended up leaving home and I moved out on my own. But I went to school and I worked and then I went to high school.

And that was terrifying. This was like 1,200 kids. It just felt like a zoo to me. It was so overwhelming. I remember just thinking that these people are kind of loud and boisterous and they talk a lot. I still in my head was indoctrinated, but I knew I was allowed to have fun and explore.

And so I did. I learned a lot. The things that I did that were edgy and bold, compared to most people, were not edgy and bold. But to me it was like, ooh, I get to wear whatever I want. I can sing in the choir here and they use instruments. I even went to New York City and sang at Carnegie Hall with my high school group. I made so many friends and I actually was very popular during school.

So one thing that's sort of strange about this group is their instrument thing. They don't allow instruments with their singing. They believe instruments encourage pride, showiness, and distract from, quote, pure worship. Yeah, because singers never have an ego. Right. Right. It's the bass singers never have an ego. Right. It's the bassist that has the ego. We all know that.

No, it's the bassist that has the weird face. Yeah. The bass face. And even through high school, there were different things that came along. But I was still dedicated to being a Mennonite inside. In my head, I still look back. I'm still baffled at how I lived this almost double life, because back then we didn't have streaming. We just dialed into church and I listened to

church back at Homeland Congregation in Montezuma. This is a perfect example of how you can leave a cult but not actually leave. The mental hold is the strongest and when you're a teenager, your brain is still developing impulse control emotional regulation and a sense of self which makes you especially vulnerable to black and white thinking fear tactics and Conditional love so Billy and his mother we had a kind of a falling out because I really wanted to move back like I I Don't understand what it was in me,

other than perhaps just fear of eternity for all of us, that we need to get back to the church, we need to get back to the church, and she, of course, would not do it. You know, she was just so adamant that she was gonna live her life the way she wanted, and I didn't want that. And I moved back to Kansas,

and then I was immediately back with the church again, and that's what I did. At first, when I went back, I went into a protection mode. I just have to buckle down, focus in, really be obedient, clean up my life. I felt like I needed to really re-consecrate my life, have an absolute focus, and for a long time I really did. You know, my life was either studying my school subjects or I was studying the doctrines and really trying to ingrain every last bit of things into myself. And it worked for a while, but I'm naturally curious

and I ask questions and that's trouble. Once I'm 18, you know, the staff had already told me I could go to nursing school. So I went to Heston College and Bethel College, which are both in South Central Kansas. They're operated by MetaNitric USA. When I went to Heston, my admissions counselor there, she, I think, was wise about things, and she's like, you know, you can study other things and we can't tell anybody. And she just kind of said that quietly, and I was like, oh, okay.

So I ended up actually not doing the nursing schooling there. I did it online and then I studied communication and music. And I never told anyone this, but while I was in college, I did sing competitively. Me and somebody else from our school, we both made it to a national competition, but then we chickened out because we were like, oh no, the publicity people are going to know about it because we both had come from more of a conservative background. So we were afraid of what would happen if we did it. But I actually quit before I graduated there

because I was facing a lot of pressure. People realized I wasn't just studying nursing. I just quit. And I was just like, this is what I need to do to be faithful. So I was on my own from there. I have officially entered that part of summer where I just want clothes that are comfortable, look good and require zero effort. Like, I don't want to think about it, which is why I like to shop at Quinn's. As you guys know, we love Quinn's on this show.

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which I probably shouldn't have done at the same time as recording this. Didn't time that right. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. Okay, summer's here, which means freedom for the kids and panic for the parents, trying to keep them busy and teach them something useful. Like how not to blow every dollar

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Which is crazy because I didn't know what a balance was probably till, I don't know, college. Yeah, your balance was balancing sleeping with drinking, I'm assuming. So my son is asking me how he can save to get a new soccer ball. I mean, it's like we're having real money conversations and Greenlight, well, it makes it easy. He sees us spend, save, and give categories and I can track everything from my phone. It's honestly the coolest way to raise financially smart kids without turning into a boring finance lecture.

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Most of the time we did not talk for several years. Later on she moved back to Kansas and I don't remember how it was that she reached out to me and we got reconnected but I went and I talked with her. She already had been having some pretty bad health problems and thankfully I got to her and was able to get to a point where I had what I would say a decent set of boundaries and a relationship with her. That was pretty good. And I still, I had a little bit of guilt because every time I would talk with her, she would always say, you know that you can leave the church and everything will be okay.

She would always say that. And then I'll never forget that time where she said, I did everything I could to take you away from that church and still you go back. You know, that's how cults are. You just blindly go back. It doesn't matter how it hurts anybody else or how they feel about it, because it's always, well, this is what God says. Once COVID time came, she ended up getting COVID and she was gone in two days. Like, it was just fast. So I'm thankful for that time that I did have with her She ended up getting COVID and she was gone in two days. Like it was just fast. But so I'm thankful for that time that I did have with her.

And so when my mom passed away, I learned that dad was not dad. One of the staff from her congregation where she grew up raped her and that's how I came to be, and I didn't know that until after going through her things. And I think that just speaks to how things go. And one of the issues that I learned that they had with her was that she was very critical and unforgiving and wouldn't relent and forgive.

And I didn't know what it was until later, and now I'm like, well, I wouldn't't eat her but I think it definitely had a part with her unwillingness to go back. Yeah I would venture to say it was most of her unwillingness to go back. And like all the stories on this show all cult tales must come to an end thankfully. Towards the end I think my mental health was really struggling just in general. I was just getting exhausted trying to put up with it all, and COVID time was one of

the best things that ever happened because I had time to think on my own away from the church and I didn't have to go to the church all the time. I also took opportunity to explore, you know, and really think about things outside of the church all the time. I also took opportunity to explore, you know, and really think about things outside of the church. And over time, I just, you know, I was just thinking, you know, I feel so horrible. It's not worth it anymore. And then I really started to call things out that were wrong. And of course, that didn't do me any favors within the church. For me, towards the end, I got called into a meeting with some of the staff and they just grilled me for several hours about different things. And

some of them were things I didn't even remember. Some of them were things that were just based on gossip and it could have been almost a year in the past. And in my head, I kept thinking, if you're concerned about my spiritual welfare and you knew about these things, why didn't you bring them to me until now? I think that was a Saturday. I went to church the next day and already people were just kind of avoiding me, turning away from me.

I was like, well, I don't get it. And in my head, I'm just like, this has got to go. It's over. And I never went back. And I didn't really say anything to anybody. And I had so many people showing up to my door and calling me and texting me. And I mean, it was a harassment level, just nonstop, downright, vile, cruel, nasty things, you know, calling me names and saying I'm going to rot in hell if I don't get right and just all sorts of things. Oh, and one more tiny huge thing who's grouped in support? Being gay.

I had connected with some different people who had left and then also people who were LGBTQ community members from other Mennonite groups or Amish groups. And there's actually a whole group of gay Holdenman guys that I'm connected with, like we have a group chat, different things. And then there's also some who are still in it. There are some people, even despite everything and knowing what they know, they just won't leave. And I never realized this until leaving. I don't know how to plan social things, and I don't know what to talk about about because I can't talk about the church like this anymore and when I do talk about the church I'm advocating against the church very heavily. Every opportunity I get to smash the idea that Mennonites are just some simply hard-working

people that live an alternate lifestyle that's simple, I just want to blow that away because it perpetuates the exact harm of these groups. And whether they're a cult or not, the very basis for the patriarchal structure of many of these groups is extremely harmful. It is detrimental not only to women and children growing up in it, but even to the people perpetrating

this system themselves. It robs them of so much and it hurts everyone involved. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and just say it, but it's a flipping cult. One video of the girl finds out she's pregnant and she goes, oh my flip, I shit you not. I forgot I had taken a pregnancy test, we're just gonna check that real quick.

Oh flip. I forgot I had taken a pregnancy test, we're just gonna check that real quick. Um... Oh, Flip. Oh my gosh. Oh my Flip goodness. I was like, did you just say, oh my Flip? Editor's note. In her post, she says, excuse my language. I don't generally say flip so often. I guess flip is pretty explicit language to Mennonites. So now Billy is officially out. Finally. Deep Exhale. I lived in Indiana for a year before I moved to Kansas City. Now I work for a specialty men's health clinic. Really, this is the best job I've had

and I just get to go to work and do my thing and I don't have to worry about what a church was thinking of everything I do in my work. I really spend a lot of time working on my wellness, both physically and emotionally. I really try to sort things out and process things. As far as faith goes, I'm not an atheist, but I definitely am at a place where I've put a pause on worshipping the God of any religion. I simply look at the life and teachings of Jesus, and I match that to what I see before me,

and I match that to what I've done. And truth-telling, even when it hurts, is what I've decided is the best way because only in manipulating reality for other people do we find ourselves miserable too. I mean, there's a lot of damage when we're not authentic to ourselves, whether that's regarding your sexuality or just simply who you are. Everyone has their own unique gifts, skills, and abilities, whether they're created or inherited, and they deserve to be able to exercise those.

I think the best part about freedom is I'm allowed to disagree and still exist in the same space as anybody, and I get to express myself authentically and honestly. And any space I enter where I don't sense that I have that freedom, I know I don't need to be there. And I just go. When obedience is equated with salvation and questioning is framed as rebellion, you don't need fences or guards to keep people in line because fear does that for you. And when you're told your worth and your eternity depend upon being in good standing,

you'll follow the rules even when no one's watching, even when you've technically left. Because the strongest control doesn't come from the church. It comes from the voice they plant in your head. But here's the thing about that voice. It's not yours. And the moment you realize that? Well, you've already started to drown it out. And that's how it begins.

That's how you leave. Not in one big exit, but in a thousand tiny steps back to yourself. Thank you, Billy, for sharing your story. I know I learned a lot, especially with how much sexual abuse is happening in these communities. He said it was worse than I could even imagine. Yeah, and when you combine silence and shame and spiritual authority, it creates kind of the perfect storm for abuse to go unchecked.

But telling the truth, even just one person speaking up, that's how these patterns start to break. So if you're listening and this hits close to home, you are not alone. There's life and healing on the other side of silence. And you don't have to take all thousand steps at once. Just the next one. Damn, Liz, you're kind of starting to sound like a bona fide cult leader.

What can I say? I've taken notes. Join us next week for a cult escape story that will bring you to your knees. And this particular story, it is very close and personal to me. So I went and listened to my ear on the door. And I could hear him talking to somebody say, yeah, Hillary, she's gonna go get married. So when I went out and told Hillary that night, she goes, Hillary, she's going to go get married. So when I went out and told Hillary that night, she goes, mom, we've got to do something. We got to get out of here.

I do not want to get married. And I think she was 14 at the time. I said, I don't know what to do because I don't know who to turn to. Thank you to you, our listeners, for all of your blind obedience and devotion and love. We literally, we can't do this show without you, so thank you. I mean, we could. We would just be wasting a lot of time and energy and money. But we could. We could. That's true. Yeah. Also, we would like

to thank our Patreon members. Honestly, it helps us. It really does help us get this thing out to print every week or every other week as it sometimes seems to be. A little bit late lately, but nobody's fault but mine, as Led Zeppelin once famously said, we'd like to thank our Patreon members, Shawna Mullins and G. Moore. Thank you. Wasana Cult is written, produced, hosted, and other things by Tiny Tyler Park Mennonite Miesam. And Liz, perfect prom pitcher, Iacuzzi.

So jacked, So jacked. And Rob Para, who apparently... I don't have one for you today, Rob. ROBBIE LAUGHS Rob, you had very little in this episode, didn't you, Rob? You just come in with a couple of mediocre lines. I wouldn't even quite say they're mediocre. Oh, but we have to say what you do.

You do sound, you do design, you... Yeah, you kind of produce as well. With full jokes. Silently judge. And Greta Stromquist, our fantastic assistant editor, who helps keep Tyler in line. Thank you. From the waters of Lake Erie. It was raising flags.

He said, there's no way that that fish should weigh 7.9 pounds. It's just not big enough. To a nondescript office building in Richmond, Virginia, home to a $700 million fund for children with special needs. If there was a cliche list of how to blow money that you just stole very quickly, this guy did all of them. To the ski slopes of Salt Lake City,

where a former Olympic snowboarder landed on the FBI's most wanted list. Ryan James' wedding is one of those interesting narcos who have had two very successful careers, one legal and one illegal. We're pulling back the curtain on a fresh lineup of opportunists who stopped at nothing to get ahead. These are the stories of people who saw a loophole, a moment of weakness, a chance to

get ahead and took it. I'm host Sarah James McLaughlin. Join me for a new season of The Opportunist on May 19th. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts. ["The Opportunist"] This summer, Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Summer of cinema is here.

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