Was I In A Cult? - The Jordanian Sufi Cult: “Trapped Between Worlds”

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

When Raidah left medical school in Sydney to spend the summer at what was promise to be an Islamic utopia in Jordan, she thought she was taking a break to heal.Instead, she found herself inside a high-control religious community led by Nuh Ha Mim Keller — an American-born Catholic convert who reinvented himself as a Sufi sheikh and built a devoted following of Muslims living in Western countries.Through his English-language books, lectures, and retreats, Keller promised these diaspora Muslims a spiritual home — a refuge from Western chaos and Islamophobia.But what Raidah found instead… was a cult._____FOLLOW USFor more culty content, follow us on Instagram & TikTok:→ @wasiinacultFOLLOW RAIDAH SHAH IDILFollow Raidah on Instagram → @raidahwritesCheck out her debut novel How to Free a Jinn — available now from Penguin Random House SEA and in the U.S.READ Storm Without a Port (PDF) — the 77-page survivor testimony compiled by former members of the Jordanian Sufi cult.Visit In Shaykh’s Clothing — a resource for Muslim survivors of spiritual abuse.SUPPORT THE SHOWIf you believe in what we’re doing — please rate, review, and share the podcast. It helps more than you know.And if you’d like to go a step further, join us on Patreon. You’ll get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and our eternal gratitude for helping us keep these conversations going.→ Join us on Patreon.HAVE A CULTY STORY?We’d love to hear from you.→ [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Grab a coffee and discover non-stop action with BudMGM Casino. Check out our hottest exclusive. Friends of one with Multi-Drop. Once even more options. Play our wide variety of table games. Or head over to the arcade for nostalgic casino thrills only available at BetMGM. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today. 19 plus to wager, Ontario only.

Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. But MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. I was tinkering of the idea of writing about my experience, being groomed for a cult

and finally leaving in the aftermath because it takes, often in my case, like decades to piece everything together, right? So while I was doing this research, I came across your podcast and I'm like, was I in a cult? And it just made me laugh so much, that laugh, cry, feelings like, this is so validating. So seeing your podcast made me feel a lot less alone and more connected to this sadly global community of survivors. We can laugh and cry at the same time. Welcome, welcome, welcome to was I in a cults, question mark. I'm Tyler Meesam. And I'm Liz Ayacuzi.

For all you listeners, if you haven't picked it up yet, there is a theme to our show. You see, each week we dive into the story of a person who found themselves pulled into a place, they thought would, well, for lack of a better word, save them, or free them, or make them closer to heaven, or bring them closer to self-realization. And then, well, comes the bummer part of the story. It turns out to be a cult. Oh, gosh. Damn!

We were so close. Just don't go. I mean, that's what's going to be no one. Not that. Golly. And then our guest finds themselves slowly, quietly, starting to lose their power, their voice, and the memory of who they once were.

Now, if you've been. been a listener for a while, you know that cults and cultic environments are far more common than your average Charlie Manson's. Yeah, it's true. They live everywhere. In fact, they live all over the world like today's story. Nope, this story does not take place in America. This story takes us all the way from Australia to a compound in Jordan. That is led by an American. So, yeah. Yeah, that's true. A white male American, actually.

Have you heard of these guys? I feel like they're really, you know. White male Americans? Yeah, I feel like they're needing a lot more support these days, these white male Americans. Yeah, we could use a hug. Yeah, I just kind of feel bad for them. Yeah, it's been, it's been a tough go. It's been a rough go for us white male Americans.

So this said white male American. he was raised Catholic. But the cult we're talking about today is an Islamic cult. So how does that line up, you may ask? Well, this man converted to Islam in the 1970s and then became, I guess you could say, a highly respected Sufi sheikh. Sufi sheik, that's basically a spiritual teacher. It's kind of a mystical guide for anyone who isn't familiar. Maybe you were raised Catholic or Mormon or whatever.

But this guy was a special to. type a son of a bitch. And I'm going to tell you why. He targeted groups of Muslims who were living in Western countries. Like Australia, which is where our guest today was living at the time. Now, why this might be extra gross to me is he was going after groups of people who already felt like outsiders, already felt different in their communities. And he took advantage of that and said, follow me to Jordan, to my Islamic utopia.

where all your dreams can come true. And today's episode, we welcome one of those individuals who did that. Someone who believed in that dream until Utopia started to feel a whole lot more like dystopia. You're so proud of that line, you know, you do have to take it. Welcome to the show, Rida. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me.

So my name is Ryda Shah Idil. I was born in Singapore and when I was 12, I moved to Sydney, Australia with my family. And naturally, I didn't know it at the time, but I was clearly like a neurodivergent geeky kid who just experienced the world of a lot of anxiety and if you're like a brown Muslim hijabi neurodivergent child you don't get to be like Sheldon the Big Bang there's no way you ever get to be like Sheldon you know if you ever fall out of line you're going to lose everything so I just masked my whole life I just tried to toe the line try to follow all those I loved rules right I mean I think

My family, as a mainstream Islam, on the conservative side for sure, my father had a very particular understanding of Islam, prayer, the rituals, wearing hijab, fasting. But what was frightening about the way that he taught us Islam was this idea that if you disobey me, that on the day of judgment, I'm going to go to God and report you to him. And as a child, that was really traumatizing, right? being told by your own parent, I mean, you're a disempowered child in a really frightening home environment, you don't really realize that it's hard to connect the dots. I couldn't separate

at the time what my father's doing is actually not Islamic. My mom had six of us close in age, so she wasn't really able to work really, which is part of, I guess, why she stayed in that marriage for so long. She didn't have her own financial security. You know, my dad was the main breadwinner. But when we moved to Australia, he didn't move with us because he couldn't get a competitive enough salary. And it was probably for the best, because that was when my mother started stepping into her own independence. She started making friends. She learned how to drive. We had our own life now. But every time my father came to visit, and then it was just like, okay, we're on high alert now. Everyone has to behave a certain way.

And so to deal with this emotional volatility, like many other kids and similar shoes she escaped. I think I just hid in my books as usual. The library was my happy space but I still have this vivid memory of the morning of 9-11. I was doing my math homework and then the TV was on and I was like really shocked and really scared because I knew that the first thing that would happen after the horror was we would be targeted because we were Muslim visibly and that it was like that shard of glass I always carried in Simon. I'm different. I'm not really welcomed here. You know, like all the politicians and all the anti-immigration rhetoric.

I mean, it's still ongoing, sadly. So we became these like third space kids with Malay faces, but we were Australian, you know. Malay meaning Malaysian, as that is where her family was originally from. Because I live in the intersections of Islamophobia, anti-Asian sentiment and misogyny. I am a clearly visibly Muslim Asian woman. This is not something like my dad forced on me, FYI. Like, I do this for myself, you know, as someone who is nearer the Virgin, I actually feel safety in this. Like, I want to be known as a Muslim woman.

I don't drink alcohol. I don't eat pork. It's a lot of things for me, and all of it is good. And it's just, yeah, why do people get so triggered? I think that's something they need to unpack, you know. And so all that pressure, the masking, the anxiety, the move to a new Western English-speaking country, it eventually took a toll. So when I was maybe around 15, I was hospitalized for having like psychotic episodes where I would see a lot of things. And to me, they looked like really creepy, dark figures.

And I guess demons in Christian in Islamic tradition, J-I-N-N. Jin is a supernatural being that is invisible to most of us. A fact to keep note of for later, dear listeners. A gin. And no, Liz, not like a gin and tonic. I know where you mind is. But like a gin and juice. Like a gin.

No. No, not like that either. In Islamic belief, jins are beings made of smokeless fire. They're creatures that exist in a parallel world to ours. They're not angels. They're not demons. They're kind of something in between. fully conscious, or fully autonomous, and fully unpredictable.

They eat, they sleep, they fall in love, they have kids, and just like humans, they can choose between good and evil. They fall in love and have kids. I guess the lucky ones, if you want to call it that. The Quran mentions them more than 30 times, even dedicating an entire chapter. Some are devout and peaceful, others chaotic, rebellious, or, downright malevolent. In traditional Islamic cultures, the unseen world, known as the Gai Biam, I know I said that incorrectly.

I apologize. You did. It is teeming with these entities. They live in deserts, abandoned ruins, even bathrooms. Yeah, I mean, I get it. Is that where you live as a gin? No. People believe gin can influence human thoughts, cause illness, or even possess someone, which is why I choose not to drink it.

And my doctors were really worried. I wasn't really strong with any psychotics, but nothing worked, ironically, until my parents flew me back to Singapore to see a traditional healer. So that's someone we would call a Bomo. And the rituals he did, the Quran reading that he did,

that actually worked. Every culture has its version. Westerners, they call it exorcism. And for Mormons, it's asking politely for the devil to leave. But before he does, oh, you better make sure he gets a second helping of Sister Christensen's jello salad.

It's got mandarin oranges. And are those carrot slices in there? Interesting choice. Thanks for coming, Satan. Oh, don't forget to have a dinner roll. You'd fit right in, Liz. I should be a Mormon. We all should.

In fact, they will baptize you eventually, so you can get that choice at some point. So to this day, I still don't know. Was that really a gin that was bothering me or was that really like the stress of being a first-generation migrant child? Or maybe it was both, who knows. But I didn't have a luxury to ponder on that. I had to go back on track and go to high school, just endure all this horrific gossiping

and just make it to mid-school. And I did against all odds. Yes, and as much as she loved reading and getting lost in story, she was committed to med school because daddy. She was following her father's expectations. and his dreams of her one day becoming a doctor. Then in university, I started getting, like, really terrible manic mood swings. Euphoria and then depression and then regret for what happened when I was manic.

And because I was young still in my early 20s, I figured that, okay, maybe it's all my childhood trauma. Okay, maybe the problem is actually something I can fix outside of myself. I need to go somewhere instead of actually sitting down with a therapist and unpacking. I just desperately needed an anchor to hold on to. I needed someone to tell me this is how you fix your life. This is how you feel better about yourself. You know, I didn't realize it at the time, but I was already being groomed for a cult anyway.

Because I was already used to a high-control environment. I was already used to, like, doing things I didn't want to do. I was already used to following the rules. We'll be right back. After I try some of Sister Jensen's fabulous jello salad. Oh, you should eat if you. want to um throw up later because that's what i did you know i have this strange habit that i formed lately so at the end of a long day whenever i slip into my bed i go oh bad because bed feel good bed soft

bed warm and also because i just upgraded to bowl and branch sheets and blankets true story bed much better bed perfect bowling branch products bed sheets bed blankets bed everything they're all made with the highest quality 100% organic cotton so bed soft bed breathable and bed softer every time you bed wash it bed I'm going through a moment Tyler anything that touches my skin anything it needs to feel cozy, good, yummy. Is that include your husband? Does he?

Literally anything that touches my skin. Okay. PJ's clothes, husband, and Bowling Branch fits the bill. Bull and Branch makes upgrading your bed easier than ever with curated bundles for a sanctuary of comfort. Bad, bed, bed. For a limited time, get 20% off bed bundles, plus free shipping and returns at Boland Branch. That's Bullen Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D-Branch.com slash cult.

To save up to 20% and unlock free shipping, exclusions apply. Bad. Now, this is a great brand, guys. Highly support it. Bed. Hey, listeners, it's Liz. So I'm not a big makeup person, but I do like to look fresh, you know, and I like glowy skin, but I don't want to spend more than three to five minutes doing it.

And I definitely don't like looking like I have a bunch of makeup on. My pepive is anything cakey? So one product I've been loving recently is the Miracle Balm from Jones Road Beauty. I'm sure you've heard of it. Jones Road Beauty was created by Bobby Brown. Yeah, that Bobby Brown. And it is a, it's a game changer. It's super minimalist, super clean.

You just take a little bit, you rub it on your cheeks. on your lips if you want lids even and i instantly just look alive glowy ah not cakey at all the opposite of that so big benefit there um just make sure you push into the product like literally push down break up the seal essentially when you first get it um and then it'll work better also there are a ton of colors so make sure you find one that fit your skin tone they have Highlighters, blushes, bronzers, whatever you're looking for, literally like, I don't know, 25 colors. It's amazing.

So if you're like me, you like that natural, no makeup makeup vibe. I highly recommend the Miracle Balm from Jones Row Beauty. It's modern day makeup that's clean, strategic, multifunctional for effortless routines. And for a limited time, you, our listeners, get a free cool gloss on your first purchase when you use our code in a cult at checkout. So go to jonesroadbeaut.com. Use our code in a cult at checkout. And after you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them.

So please support our show and tell them we sent you. Enjoy. We're back. So a quick explanation from these two white Americans about Sufism versus more mainstream Sunni Islam. Yeah, which basically is like two white people trying to explain jazz. but we'll give it a shot. You'd just have to feel it.

So, Sunni Islam is the mainstream majority of the global Muslim population, which is about 85 to 90%. It's all about community and daily practice, the structure of how you live as a Muslim, if you will. Now, Sufism is Islam's mystical side, right? The spiritual stuff. It's not a separate branch like Sunni or Shia. It's like the mystical wing of Islam.

No, Sufis make up about it. 15 to 20% of Muslims worldwide. And Sufis are all about the spiritual practice, the direct connection to the divine. And that's what sort of makes this space ripe for cultic abuse, because in Sufism, you follow a spiritual leader. Right. It's no longer just about you and your connection to God, but about a person who claims to be your connection to God. Someone who's insight or mystical vision, you're taught to Trust completely.

And that person is known as the Sheikh, which is essentially the spiritual guide leader. And mainstream Sunni Islam doesn't really have Shakes in the same way, not as all-powerful spiritual intermediaries, which again is what makes this kind of right for abuse. The Sheikh and his wife traveled to diaspora Muslim communities in the West, and they would hold gatherings. It was advertised through the communities we were in like, oh, you know, this. really famous Shea has coming, and he translated and wrote a lot of amazing books. So they came in like these saviors in a sense.

So the Sheikh she's talking about is Nuhammin Keller, born Noah Keller, an American-born white Catholic, who grew disillusioned with what he saw as the moral hypocrisy and institutional corruption of the organized Catholic Church. Don't know what he's referring to there. He studied philosophy at the University of Chicago. Go Phoenix, which then drove him into existentialism, mysticism, and the Sufi Islamic philosophy. He eventually converted to Islam in the 1970s, following the post-60s Western counterculture wave of spiritual exploration, that search for truth in the East. Through his English translations of Islamic texts and online lectures, he built a huge following and eventually moved to Jordan in the early 80s.

He presented himself as a kind of bridge between worlds, right? A white Western scholar who could translate the beauty of Islam for English-speaking Muslims who sort of felt caught between cultures. And his wife, known as Om Sal, was like his spiritual partner and all this. Though really, she was more like the enforcer. She ran women's classes. She oversaw abusive parenting protocols and pushed the idea that total obedience to the Sheikh and his teachings was the only path to God.

Together they became this power couple of, quote, pure Islam. They'd tour Muslim communities in the West, the U.S., the UK, Australia, recruiting people into what they called a spiritual path and what we, on this show, call a cult. They'll just come to our community. He'd be around for three to five days, and there was a lot of praise for those who could serve the sheikh and serve his wife.

It was his big honor if you could cook for him and all this kind of stuff. He came very somber, very serious, not of this world, I would say. He literally felt separate. This is someone who's made it, and I just have to listen to his instructions, and hopefully I'll be that. And of course, when he would talk to them, he would weaponize their feelings of being outsiders in their own communities and use it to pull them deep into his orbit. We're all traumatized in some state we're off home. We always have struggles of trying to fit in.

We were just, I guess, hurt and hungry for love and acceptance. We have this beautiful place where you can heal. Leave the West behind and leave all of those vices, all the bad stuff, and come to our paradisial community. It felt like an oasis. It felt like, oh, this is like the respite that I'm looking for. This is peaceful. this is the answer

and this is the only answer which I guess should have been the red flag right but I just I just like flung myself headlong into what I thought was a supportive, loving community but how I became a student

I basically contacted the one in charge here and he put me in touch with the share directly over a phone call that's where I took by so meaning I pledged of being his student And I still remember, like, that feeling of, like, oh, relief. Someone is helping me now, carrying me through.

So essentially, she became part of the Sheikh's local fan club in her community in Sydney. I mean, it seemed harmless and just a way to connect with like-minded Muslims. But it was designed for something bigger. Yes, it was a slow grooming process in which trust, loyalty, dependency, were quietly being instilled, all so that they could eventually convince people to, completely uprood their lives to move across the world from Australia or America

or Europe to the Middle East which I don't know is kind of a big ask and exactly why I think they operated like this so after I made my pledge to the Sheikh we were all prescribed some daily litanies we could read and it was a way of yeah like self-soothing

and then once a week we would go in for like this ritual where we would recite the litanies together as a group, and then we would listen to one of the recent lectures from the sheikh. And the prophet himself said this, the same meaning. He said, methala lily yadkour rubu, and lalleli yasur, masel hai and mayeat. He, the parable of he who makes zikr of Allah, and he who does not make zikr, is the semblance of the living compared to the semblance of the dead. And then afterwards, the was often food, so it was a nice way to just connect with each other.

I love the community of the moms and their babies, the kids. They felt like, I guess, a second family to me, you know, and if they had sessions on the weekend, I tried to attend, I'd bring my mom along. I just bring my mom, like, oh, look at these, look at that. You know, like, my dad was immediately, like, suspicious, which they made my determination to stay it through even further, exactly. Oh my gosh. Yeah. All right, rebelling against your parents. I get it. I support it. Except when it lands you in a cult. That's all I got to say.

But then there was a point in my life. Like in my early 20s, things were just so bad. Everything was self-destructing. I was already halfway through my medical degree and my moods were just out of control. I felt that for as long as I stay in Sydney in like the chaos of my family home, like I couldn't get better. Like I needed a break. And those of us who were really struggling like me back then, we were highly encouraged to just move to that community and get that spiritual detox. Now, did she come to that decision on her own, or was it years of subtle grooming by the shake? I guess one will never know. One will never know. But one may have a pretty good idea. One does.

And for Rida, the timing did seem divine. She was burnt out in medical school. And so stepping back from that afforded her the opportunity to, I don't know, travel the world. Okay, I can take a break and I want to go to Jordan. And my plan was to stay just for the summer, just with three months like Shufa summer program. Boy, how many times have we heard that on our show? I'm just going to go to the introductory class. Maybe I'll just do the one-week group offering.

I mean, a month in the camp, that's no big deal, right? Just a weekend retreat? I'll be back Monday. Right. Cut to Jordan, the land of Islamic Utopia. So, you know, saved up, you know, I signed up and I flew in with my brother. You know, I have this vivid sensory memory of like landing in that community and then being dropped off in the bus. I was with my brother and just hearing the Athan, the call to prayer from the nearby mosque, like for the first time. Then that was really amazing. So like there was the mosque in the middle and there were like lots of.

of buildings around, all within walking distance. The Islamic Academy I was in, it was called Sunni Path at the time. It was this white building, and they were like beautiful calligraphy on the walls and like desks and tables and a setup and like this beautiful Middle East breakfast buffet every morning. I still remember. It was so, so delicious. Be wary of delicious buffets at events, everyone. Could be a cult.

Well, if that's true, then I'm in the cult of gold. Corral. Take a boy out of Mormonism, but you can't take him out of all you can eat yellow salad. So the type of person or the families who are in

that community, we either grew up in Australia like me, there were some from Canada, a lot from America, some from the UK, and that one thing tying us together, like we were all Western Muslims looking for some kind of oasis.

looking for this paradisdial community where we could be unapologetically Muslim and we could focus on raising our families and be accepted. We just wanted to be left alone to worship God and to do our thing, you know? And many of us, not surprisingly, also came from backgrounds of family dysfunction. We were all looking for something. We were all, I guess, vulnerable. So over time, like more and more families would come. to join this utopia, to build it, to go on this ship per se, towards salvation.

And the more people came, then the more they brought their money, their income, their investments, whatever it might be. And it was beautiful at the time. It did feel like the answer to all of my prayers. It felt like, I'm at peace, I can anchor myself here, I can just be Muslim, and no one's going to yell at me for wearing hijab. It was just so nice. But here's the thing about utopias. They hate women. So, there you go. The rules around women and dressing are very strict.

Like, always, like, dull color, dark color, really loose. Just to be as invisible as possible. You had to cover your face. And you're like, oh, man, how am I going to breathe in this? Never mind. I'll adapt. And after a while, I actually really started to like that anonymity. I guess, like, in the West, I always felt so highly visible

Look at me, this brown Muslim lady, you know, racist can yell and xenopos, whatever. But in that community with my neckab, I could just blend in. I could just focus on my internal state. Because I like the rules, the routine, the predictability. But if you were a single woman in that community, you really hoped you would be set up with a nice guy, like a husband. And you'd elevate, you'd like level up. But I was just like, no, it's not going to have. to me. I'm pretty sure I do not fit the bill for various reasons. And I was there to

study anyway. So the structure would be on a daily thing. There were like prayers five times a day at the mosque for the men. So we had our schedule like you go to class in the mornings and then you can't break for prayer and then go home in the afternoons. There were like the group supplication sessions, so the Zawiya, that's where we would go for the Sheikh's lessons. Once a week, at least women were upstairs, the men were lowered down, and there was a little room for, like, the children.

The women, like, you know, we copped a lot of the control, abuse, manipulation, insults, but the men, they were just taught to just distance themselves from all of it. It was this parallel thing where you had the weekly gatherings with the Shakespeare, And now we had like weekly gatherings with his wife where she would teach parenting lessons. And like my mom who's got six kids of her own, like she said the taboo thing. She was like, why are they teaching parenting stuff when they don't have children of their own? But you weren't allowed to say that.

Allah do you want to say that. All the parenting stuff especially, it was from this book called Raising Godly Tomatoes. So I think that was like a Christian book. Okay, guys, I looked this book up and, oh, my gosh. No, I can't. Raising godly tomatoes. You mean tomatoes, I believe. I mean tomatoes.

Raising godly tomatoes is a Christian parenting manual written in the early 2000s by one Elizabeth Kruger, a homeschooling mother of 10. So you can imagine where this is going, guys. The premise is that children are like tomato plants, tender. Impressionable. And perfect for BLTs. Hmm. The metaphor is that children need constant staking, i.e. constant discipline, to grow straight and strong.

And I think they mean straight in all of the ways of that word. Zy usage. Mm-hmm. Possible. Kruger's methods heavily emphasize immediate submission, total parental control, and yes, lots of spanking. According to this douchebag, beating your kids is an act.

of love, and heaven forbid your child question authority, because of course, that's rebellion against God. Kruger insists her approach is gentle. And by gentle, she means four beatings a day instead of ten. The book's been widely criticized even among conservative Christians for promoting authoritarian and psychologically damaging practices. Also, Kruger's analogy to tomato staking. So, tomato staking in gardening is literally tying a plant to a stick so it can't bend or wander. But that's not parenting. That's control. Real parenting is scaffolding.

I mean, you support them while they grow, then remove the supports as they get stronger. Tyler's parenting book is titled, Scaffolding Your Offspring, the support beam approach to raising independently secure children by Tyler Mason. It was this idea of being responsive to your child makes some spoiled Western brats. So, you know, it was like Clint's,

big emphasis on, like, discipline and good manners and how you have to instill this in your children. Ironically, just not an Islamic concept. The Prophet Pisipani was very loving to children, very compassionate, very forgiving. But I didn't see that when I was there, you know? I knew that there were a lot of the kids, especially the young girls, they were, like, afraid of going out of line. It wasn't like that carefree childhood of running around and playing. It was like, no, no, you had to be a certain way. even as the child.

Another bummer. Utopias hate kids, too. And we'll be right back after I finish this BLT. Mmm, tomatoes. Hey, everyone. So falls just around the corner. Oh, wait, no, falls already here. Can we not read the copy that they asked us to read?

Sure, forget it. We love this brand. Let's just get right to it, shall we quints. Let's get to it. It's Quince. We love it. Quince, I admit it. I am obsessed with Quince.

their quality guys incredible the pieces are timeless every day i feel like i'm on their website strolling for something new right now i'm into like you know coats it's getting cold or almost getting cold i wanted to get colder it's LA it doesn't get really that whatever i just not we shouldn't complain to the rest of our country i just got a wool coat and it's so it looks designer nobody would ever know super high end but at a fraction and i mean fraction of the price. Sometimes I'm like, where's the catch, Quince? But there is no catch. I am a Quince convert. They've indoctrinated me. I'm never leaving. I started buying everything there. I've got sweaters. I actually have wine glasses. I got a ring there. It's a one-stop shop for adulting.

And it's ethical. They cut out the middleman, which is how they can keep their prices down. And it's just a great company. I just got three of their pumpkin candles. That actually smell super luxx, like high-end, not like a gas station bathroom. Three candles, Tyler, for $60, three. You can't beat that. And I'm going back for more. Watch me. I imagine you will.

And when I'm back, I think a slip dress is going to slide into my card, and I'm not going to be mad about it. So you can find your staples, whether it's fall, spring, summer, wherever you are at quince.com slash cult. shipping, 365 day returns. That is Quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash cult. Don't forget the slash cult. Free shipping, 365-day returns. And guess what goes? Now available in Canada, too.

Canada. Everyone, you should join Quince, the softest cult you'll ever love. We can't say that, Tyler. I just did. You can't unring that bell. Join the cult. So, you know, Liz. I pretty much only listen to non-fiction audio books, right?

History, biography, music, baseballs. You're the documentary guy. Facts only. No dragons, no vampires. No fun over here. I know, but guess what? What? Prophecy Season 2 totally hooked me.

Yeah. It's kind of a supernatural audio drama. It's about a mother, son running from a cult. Yes, a cult that believes the kid is some kind of Messiah. I love audiobooks, Tyler, and guest. What? As opposed to you, I love thrillers. That's where I always go to. It's also about a cult, so it checks all my boxes. Since you don't get enough cults in your... Give me the fiction ones. I'm good. I didn't think I'd like a supernatural thriller. I'd be honest. I really didn't. But I'm kind of sneaking chapters in. I'm driving. I'm making dinner. My wife is starting to question my obsession.

She's like, why aren't you talking to me? Could be other reasons for that. The cast is great. Carrie Washington? Hello, I've been a fan since scandal. You want to know something cool about Carrie Washington? Her husband played in the NFL for 11 seasons. Oh. Want to know something cool about that guy in the NFL's wife? She is a Golden Globe nominee and an Emmy winner. And great in the prophecy, guys.

She brings all of her signature, Carrie Washington intensity. But it's more intimate because it's in your ears. So you're like, oh, my God. She's right there. Yeah. She plays Virginia. She plays a mother who's on the run with her miracle son. Joshua. You know who's rad in it, too, just because I also like saying his name, Jean Carlo Esposito. Yeah. Have you seen Breaking Bad? I mean, the Mandalorian?

So good in Breaking Bad. The dude does sinister better than anybody. And in this piece, of course, he's a cult leader. His name is Luther Bell. Pretty good cult leader name. I mean, it's a good cult leader name. And then Dule Hill shows up, right? And he was totally in the West Wing. And Syke. Yeah, lead a Syke. Yeah. He plays Moses, this mysterious believer. It's got a complicated past. It's really good, really well-acted, a lot of Emmy winners, TV legends. It's just like basically like a blockbuster in your headphones, guys. And it hits the sweet spot. It's nice to dive into a story that's fictional, traumatic, with a little bit of cult itch.

Without the real trauma, you know? Yeah, exactly. Fictionalized. So if you guys are looking for something new, that'll keep you hooked while you're stuck in traffic or cooking dinner or wanting to be distracted from your family. Check it out the Prophecy Season 2. Go to audible.com slash Prophecy 2. That's the number 2 and start listening today. And we're back. So one thing about being in this community in Jordan was being near the Sheikh himself. It felt like, wow, like I was in the presence of someone who was close to God and who knew the path.

Because I had so much trouble with my own biological father, especially. human spiritual sense. I was just so desperate for some answers from like a nicer father figure in that sense. And all I had to do was trust in what he said. And I put so much faith and so much of myself into everything he told me. I think we all did. We were so naive and so vulnerable and so trusting that we switched off that critical part of our brains. And that's how cults work. Well, she switched it off because she was indoctrinated to do so, along the way, being taught that her own voice and intuition isn't to be trusted, and thus went to him for all the answers.

I had maybe two or three private meetings with him, and I knew like I needed to see a psychiatrist to continue my bipolar medication. So that was kind of frowned upon. There was always this underlying, like, medication is not good for you. So I had this idea that I had to win off my meds to be better, you know, to not be. so reliant on this crutch and other weird things like being told by the sheikh that like things like vaccines cause autism and then all this stuff and I'm like wait a minute I went to medical school for yes two years but even I know that that's factually incorrect but in this time away from medical school it gave right at the chance to explore at least in her

mind what it is she really enjoys doing but she of course had to run it past the shake And then I asked him a question about writing fantasy novels. I love fantasy novels. So it's been something I've been hyper-focuses that was a kid. And his suggestion was like, it's like better not to write about things that are too fantastical. But like this idea of like, but he was nice to me, which is probably what made it so gaslighty. It's like, so the emotional abuse more came from the ladies in charge. I guess for me it was just being told over and over again like, oh, you're dysfunctional.

is dysfunctional, and you'll know you're not when I tell you. It's always a surrender of autonomy. It's okay to be away from your family, because they don't understand any way. It's better to be here, to heal, to not get influenced. If anyone says otherwise, then don't listen to them. They don't know. They're enemies, you know? Very, very us against them, yeah.

But remember, her plan was to only be there three months, and then go back to school. So once the summer program was over, it started to dawn upon me that I don't want to go back. I don't want to go back to mid-school. Like, I'm going to just stay here where it's safe and I'm in this bubble cocoon thing. You'll get to bypass all the icky stuff that happens in the West

just by being here. Because here it's like paradise on Earth. Here's the utopia. That's the only way. In the height of it, I was like, well, the ultimate expression of that would be to get married, and to have kids and to like make my own kiefer and bake my own bread, that kind of thing.

Yeah, that was the ultimate goal. And I guess secretly deep down, I did want to get married. I did want to fit that role. I did want to have that whole experience that was really highly praised and lauded. But when it comes to the other single ladies, it almost felt this unspoken competition. Like you had to win over the ladies in charge, so you could persuade them that you were good marriage material.

And then they might matchmake you with someone and then you'll like reach Nirvana because you're married now. But I was just so desperate to just fit in, to be in the good graces of those in power, to be a wife, to have children, to raise them in that way. That was like the script. That was what you did to attain success as a woman. He had to really be a really good Muslim

and really know how to cook and clean. Like, I am this university educated, but that doesn't seem to matter. It was like, how subservient can you be? I, for a long time, just survived on, like, instant noodles. This probably didn't help. But it was comforting because it reminded me or my mom. And I eventually learned to cook because I had to be a good trad wife.

So I actually made it my mission to, like, go to different homes and learn how to cook different dishes. So for a little while, I was picked to cook for the sheikh. And it was a great honor. Oh, wow, I must be doing something right. I must be masking pretty well. Maybe this means they'll think I'm worthy enough to get married. You know, maybe they'll pick someone for me because of my, like, baking progress or whatever or something, right? And at this time in her life, she was suffering from deep internal struggles.

I definitely felt like the ideal version of me was not who I was at the time. It was someone who was calmer, who didn't have to be on medication anymore, who had to be, like, married. and had that hope that, or maybe if I'm here for long enough, if I follow the spiritual teaching strong enough, then somehow I could be cured with myself. Instead, I just shrunk. Because it's a cult. And cults never want you to grow into your actual full self.

They never want you to actually reach your highest potential because then you wouldn't need them anymore. But thankfully, I was still in Hodges to my mom, and I had my brother who was still around, and he was trying to plant the seeds. Do you think this whole community could actually be a cult? And of course, when you brought up the first time, I'm like, no, how can you say that? Don't read this stuff online from the haters. You know, real quick, if you're involved in something that just feels off, I mean, maybe go digging.

See if there are any deep online talks or comments about it being a cult. I mean, really, all you need is one buried Yelp review. Trust the Buried Yelp review is all we're saying. Unless it's for a buffet, ignore all bad buffet reviews. Go get your jello with carrots. So for Rida, like all people in cults, when first confronted with the notion of this being a cult, the initial reaction is to double down.

But... As with all things, the crack started. to show as more time went on. So then this friend of mine, she went out with other girls who were not students of the she. She went out one of the girls and she wasn't wearing her nikab. So that's like a big no-no.

Like you don't break the rules. And then she was asked to leave. You don't get any second chances. But after a while, I started realizing, wait a minute, that feels like really excessive. The fear took over as I saw like more and more people fall out of line and the consequences for that.

Ironically, like, studying the Islamic sciences and seeing those texts in front of me and hearing that and listening to it, but we're meant to be kind to each other and compassionate and forgiving. I couldn't see that. You know, I just saw the exact opposite. It was all highly controlled.

It was only marriage, and it was only through the channels of the Sheikh and his wife was, like, highly surveilled. You know, so lots and lots of, like, ranking and whispering, but no, like, direct questioning. don't talk about it out loud. It's known. So after feeling time and time again of not being worthy of a husband, a real possibility finally presented itself. But in my case, it was unexpected and different because this

young man was, he actually made friends with my brother. So he was the one who brought up with Sahel, the possibility of a match. Because you have to always consult. Everybody has to consult the sheikh of her everything of course including marriage and he prayed the prayer of guidance which is a prayer any muslim can do but if you ask the sheikh for it just for the blessing right and his answer was no like this is not a good match and i was like broken and i went to umsahal for advice and she's basically like scolded me and saying you fell in love with the man it wasn't your husband that's your fault that's when i realized this community doesn't have anything that it can offer me anymore. I had changed enough from that experience to realize that I cannot do this.

Nothing here can help me. I need to leave. Maybe I was sold a lie. Maybe like, you know, I was just conned and I did the best I could have what I knew and, okay, I've been here for almost two years and it's okay to leave. In the minute, I started showing signs of wanting to leave and then it was like this double down. It was just this fear again, you know, like, like, Don't leave, stay, this is better. It actually became this whole nightmare parallel universe where I stopped trusting myself. I doubted my judgment.

Rejection is sometimes our superhero swooping in to save us at just the right moment. And we'll be right back. I'm just going to finish my third trip through the buffet line. You've got a little throw-up in between your teeth next to your jello carrot salad. Oh, wait, no, that's my throw-up. So Soul is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy.

Soul specializes in delicious hemp-derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Look, all right, I like a drink to mellow out every once in a while, but sometimes booze has an edge. So I'm totally into this product. It's called Soul Out of Office beverage. It's a refreshing alcohol-free drink that's perfect for winding down or actually just hanging out. You pop a can, you get the same light, happy buzz without the hangover, the sugar, or the bar tab. And just, I'm not even kidding, this is real. Ten minutes ago, I just got a delivery.

I'm looking at two badass six-packs of soul and some gummies. I'm going to pop into these this evening. Speaking of the gummies, they're best-selling out-of-office gummies. They're designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood, and enhance your creativity and relaxation. They have five different strengths. So you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe from a gentle 1.5 milligram microdose to their newest to 15 milligram gummy for a more elevated experience. So pop a can, pop a gummy, treat yourself to Soul today. This stuff is cool.

And right now, Soul is offering our audience. 30% off your entire order. That's a lot. Go to soul.com and use the code cult. That's get soul.com promo code cult for 30% off. Crackapapa, topa, crack a, kha. So now Rida had finally reached her breaking point. But the time between realizing you need to leave a cult and actually leaving can vary.

And the annual Hodge pilgrimage was. rapidly approaching. So the Hajj is like a pilgrimage and it's basically you go to Mecca and you circumambulate around the Kaaba seven times. The Hajj only happens in one place and that's Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It's the holiest city in Islam and every year, millions of Muslims travel there to walk the same steps that Prophet Muhammad did over 1,400 years ago. Yes, this tradition has been going on for centuries.

that's just like a little bit older than America and it's massive right last year alone over two million Muslims from around the world made the trip it's considered one of the most profound spiritual experiences a Muslim can have a kind of rebirth and since she was already in Jordan right next door to Saudi Arabia well it felt like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity so she called her brother

and I went when I saw the cabal for the first time It was like a beautiful structure. You know, I just prayed to God, please grant me what I'm seeking, this peace, a good husband, children. I don't know when it's going to happen if I'm worthy, but I'm giving it to you and I'm trusting that this will pan out. It was such a spiritual high. I guess it was exactly what I needed to give me that courage to leave and to ironically seek refuge in the West with my mom and my family. I had already realized and decided that no one is going to love and accept. me like my mom and I need to go back home and just figure out my next steps, you know.

My mom was always like, it's okay, you can come home. You can always come home. And thankfully by that point, her marriage in my dad was over. So home became safe because he wasn't there anymore. So that helped a lot. I left in March 2011. And when I came back, one of my oldest friends from high school, she just looked at me. She was like, what happened to you there? Like, what happened? How did you, like, shrink so much? So, yes, she had left Jordan, but she was still tethered to the shake.

When I came back, I actually continued going back to the same gatherings from that same community. And I started noticing the cracks in other people in that community. I started realizing that, you know, this cannot be right, the way they treated women's children. The Prophet, Pisa, one would never have condoned this. I started going less and less to those gatherings. I was still trying to figure myself out, unpack this.

And I was writing a lot of articles about what I'd gone through. And it wasn't until I actually met my husband in Arabic class through my brother. And just starting to talk about what happened. And he was like, something not right there. Because all the women and his family are incredibly strong-willed. He's actually agreeing that that was a problem. you know and we actually arose a really fast courtship in the end I think we just knew what we wanted and I was like look this is the story this is my baggage run for the hills or marry me which one

and I'm not going to hide anything and I'm like he's going to run for the hills he didn't still good man three kids 13 years later still around thankfully you know so all the things that I thought were like all bad about me he just loved all of that that. So that was great. Oh, good. I guess I don't have to contort myself into this tiny, annihilated version of Treadwife. So many times when people leave cults, they don't know what they actually left until much later. Or don't come to peace with it until much later. More friends I was close to had left, and they were trying to call it a cult. And I was like, I think I was resistant for such a long time because I didn't want my dad to be right. That's one

aspect. And the other aspect was this kind of like shame that I left medical school because I joined a cult. It's such a cliche. I'm so embarrassed. He even say that out loud. But then like my first daughter was born. And then my second daughter, 2018, 2019, my son. I was just immersed in the whole parenting of littles and just focused on the surprising difficulty that came to me for all this trauma coming right up to the forefront when I'm raising little children. Right. And I'm I'm like, oh my goodness, is this? Am I always going to be haunted by this? I would get flashbacks still, like how the other kids were treated.

And after a while, I'm like, it actually was a cult. I was in there. And I'm like, yes, I don't want anyone to get stuck into this and go through what I did. And then other survivors reached out to me about compiling their report. So we wrote articles together, all that kind of stuff. So doing out little grassroots don't join the cult movement. So there was an internal document that survivors like me we had put together just as a testimony to what we went through.

What really shocked me was the extent to which the abuse was to the children. And she is not wrong. She shared this document with me and I read through it and it is awful. And if you guys want to read it as well, just Google Storm without a port PDF, literally storm without a port PDF. You'll find it right there at the top of the search. It's a 77-page document of collective survivor stories recounting all the horrific abuse they received

at the hands of the Sheikh and his wife. The sheer control these two had over everyone's lives and the abuse of the children, I personally just had to stop reading it because it broke my heart. And then in May of 2022, an article came out titled, Jordan, Sufi community, led by U.S. Scholar, faces child abuse complaints. Former followers of Nuhamun Keller says children as young as two were subjected to beatings.

So the article basically details, like all the decades of abuse and manipulation. It had happened, particularly in the context of the school and how it affected the children, and how so many of us up and left everything hoping for a bit of life. But it was just all a big lie in the end. and if you are in that cult please read it and see for yourself like these are survivor testimonials it's all true there are people like us we've left we're getting therapy or gun therapy and we're processing it then there's the second category where they knew something was bad they left the kids left but they didn't get help and things are continuing to resurface and then the third category of those who are like still in it

They're the ones who are still actively being abused, but when you're in it, it's really hard to reach them. So I'm one of the lucky ones. I've got to go back to my mom and, like, my siblings, and we all got to heal. And I got married to my husband, sorry, my own family. These are all critical parts of my healing journey. And just I'm really grateful that I married a husband, who truly is, like, my equal and sees me as such. And who has helped me unpack a lot of this over the years. And it turns out, medical school was meant to be left in the past.

And I found my calling as an author and I want to keep writing books the rest of my life. I'd always love fantasy novels like I mentioned. And it's just so thrilling that it's finally published. Wait, wait, wait, she has a book. So it's called How to Free a Jin. I told you Jin would circle back. How to Free a Gin. And it's hard to think of a more poetic way to disqual.

describe a recovery from a cult. It took the words right out of my mouth. Remember, a gin in folklore is something trapped between worlds, invisible but powerful. And when you've spent years in a cult, that's kind of what you become too. Trapped between worlds. Living someone else's idea of you. While your real self waits in the wings. Invisible until you find her again.

The girl who once had to ask permission to write about fantasy now owns her own mythology. So it's a really fun fantasy exciting thing that's also actually talking about ancestral trauma and resilience through fantasy, yeah. Now I'm like hyper-focusing on cults and realizing the vulnerability that comes with being like a neurodivergent diaspora, Muslim,

really made me more vulnerable than usual. There is no utopia for Muslims, you know, and we do the best we can do what we have and recognise that safety is something that you build within yourself and your community and if someone is claiming to be the only way, the only answer, that's a red flag. But if what we share, what I share with you in this podcast,

will stop even one young woman or one family, from selling everything and relocating, then, like, it's worth it. Like, my job is done. You know, most of the authors we feature on the show have written memoirs. But Rida's book, How to Free a Gin, is fiction, and their reviews are wonderful.

And guess what, guys, good news. If you live in the U.S., it's now out here, published by a major publisher. So many, congrats, Rida. The link is in our show notes. As well as a link right I wanted to share with us, it's a resource for Muslim survivors of spiritual abuse in shakesclothing.com. Great title in shakes clothing. It is an incredible resource.

It's built by people who know what it's like to be trapped between worlds and are helping others find a way back to themselves. Because freedom isn't just leaving the cult. It's stepping fully into your own life again. and reclaiming your truth. And that's what Rida's story reminds us. Even when you've been trapped between worlds, you can still choose which one you'll live in next. And next week, we will be back with an incredible story,

with an incredible storyteller. We're going inside the violent polygamous Mormon cult based in Mexico run by the Labarins. Pamela Jones, our guest, is the epitome of this show. What she has overcome is absolutely mind-numbing, risking her life in the middle of the night with her eight youngest children to cross the border, you won't want to miss it. Once I turned 11, I don't know the reasons why,

but I speculate that the law was catching up with my family, whether it was tax fraud, welfare fraud, whatever. all it was. I don't know that we left like thieves in the night and moved into Mexico. So we moved into one of the homes that had been vacant there and we didn't have electricity, running water. My father was on the list to be murdered. So now my dad was in hiding. So we really never saw him. Of course, my mom has all these children. So I know she met up with him for sex and stuff so that she could continue having children. And once again, thank you to all of our wonderful Patreon supporters.

We are starting to add more content, so we appreciate all of you that join our membership page. We're fighting cults, and you are a part of that team. New cult fighting badasses include Amy Harrison, the name Just to Be Happy, which I think is kind of nice. and Ashley. We'll see you all next time on this show. Was I a cult? Credits, credits, credits.

Tyler Meesum, Liz I and Coosie, Rob Perra, Greta, Gratis, Gras Stromquist. The end. Take out your night. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify This October

Fear is free on Pluto TV with horror movie collections from paranormal activity, The Ring. You will die in seven days. Scream. And from dusk till dawn. This is my kind of place. And don't miss the man-made nightmares

in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein or the world ending chaos in 28 days later. There's something in the best. All the scares, all for free. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never.