Was I In A Cult? - The LeBaron Polygamy Cult—Pt3: “And It Was Revealed, the Power Had Always Been Hers.”

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

She survived a violent polygamist cult.She survived a husband who collected wives like property.She survived the blood atonement doctrine that stalked her childhood like a shadow.But this is the part of Pamela Jones’s story where she does the impossible:she runs.In this final chapter of our three-part series, Pamela plans an escape nearly as dangerous as the life she’s leaving behind—nine children in tow, no legal paperwork for half of them, almost no money, and the very real fear that leaving could mean death.This episode isn’t just about leaving a cult.It’s about rebuilding an identity from scratch.It’s about motherhood as revolution.It’s about reclaiming a life she was told she never owned.And it’s the story of what Pamela built on the other side—freedom, love, a business, and a legacy that’s inspiring other women to walk out of the same darkness she escaped.Her transformation is staggering.Her resilience is unforgettable.Her ending is exactly what she deserved.Pamela’s memoir, The Dirt Beneath Our Door, is linked in the show notes._____________FOLLOW USFor more culty content —follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacultSUPPORT THE SHOWIf you believe in what we’re doing (and want to help us keep shining light on the dark corners of control and charisma), please rate, review, and share the podcast. It helps more than you know.Want to go deeper down the rabbit hole?Join us on Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and our eternal gratitude for helping us keep these stories alive.HAVE A CULTY STORY?We’d love to hear from you — drop us a line at [e-mail] WITH PAMELA JONESYou can follow Pamela Jones — speaker, author, survivor, and all-around badass — here:Her Book: The Dirt Beneath Our DoorWebsiteLinkedInInstagramFacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. After I left the cult, I had lost everything, lost not only home and everything that I owned, but I lost all the relationships, all the generational traditions and securities that you inherit through family. My daughter likes to say, it's like we were out on a cloud. Not only did we not have a foundation, we were out in thin air. Welcome back to Was I in a cult. He is better. He is all better. I'm still hanging in there, but it's still a little bit raspy.

But I'm a little better. I feel like that's on purpose. I decided to keep the raspy. voice. The headaches, stuffy nose, fatigue are gone. Getting hit on way too much. You're like, okay, okay, I got it. It's a bedroom voice to match my bedroom

eyes. And so there are three some me, some. And who are you, young lass? I'm Liz Aikuzzi. Yes, she is. I'm Liz Aikuzzi. And today, guys, this is part three. It is kind of a sad day. We have to say goodbye to Pamela Jones.

That's not rue that we're saying goodbye. Let's embrace that we had her. She's just fantastic. If you guys haven't listened to parts one and two, obviously go and start there. Who starts at part three? People read the last page of a book, I guess. If you watched the last Matrix first, would you even watch the first Matrix? No.

No. So I wonder, maybe there are people that just skip ahead to this. And for those people, we're going to give a recap. Yeah. Take it away. Part one. We met Pamela. little girl growing up in a violent polygamous sect in northern Mexico, led by the infamous La Barron brothers.

Her childhood was marked by hunger, abuse, and the constant threat of blood atonement. The belief that some sins can only be forgiven by death. At the ripe old age of 15, she saw marriage as her escape. In part two, that escape, quote unquote, became a new kind of prison, a husband who took multiple wives, a father-in-law who took her home, and a doctrine that took every ounce of her dignity and freedom. I convinced it was the only way to heaven she spent nearly two decades, trapped in control, isolation, and fear, until one day her teenage son said that he couldn't watch her suffer anymore. That was the thing, the spark that changed everything.

This week, Pamela, she does the unthinkable. she finally escapes and it's awesome i try not to use the word awesome because i think it's overused but in this particular incident this is full of awe and i therefore shall use the term yes there is some awe in this much welcome to this week tyler proving his dorkiness we're four seasons into this liz i have long ago Proven my dorkiness. Regardless, Pamela's escape story is awesome.

Full of awe, if you will. Yes, she escapes across the border into a world she once called home, but now feels as foreign as the taste of freedom itself. And what she builds after, guys, is nothing short of extra ordinary. also known as extraordinary because it's not just ordinary it's extra ordinary if you think about that that doesn't kind of work

like it's just ordinary but extraordinary wouldn't that just mean more ordinary more ordinaries yeah I'm I decide I'm not going to use that word anymore because it's beyond ordinary then I don't know what the word is it's nothing short of miraculous full of miracle

Miraculsome. Let's just let her talk. Pamela, steal the mic from us, please. When it came to me, I just thought you can have it. I had suffered so much already. That's all I knew was suffering, so I could continue. But when it came to the children, then the roaring line in me came out, and I realized right then I had to get out.

I always felt like America was my home. I loved America. I loved everything about it. My first 11 years of life was in America. That's why I chose America. So then right away, I started coming together, every plan. Like, what do I need to do? My children were not all American citizens. So I needed to work on getting their papers fixed. So I went down to Mom Belmas. We talked about it. She told me what I

needed. We started the whole plan. I needed money to pay for that. So another brother helped me. My father had become sober now, and I think he realized exactly what I was going through. He had seen my suffering and my extreme suffering. My father started to help me figure out the paperwork. So I started making plans. Finding a place to stay. figuring it out, working on papers, towing the line, being obedient. Yes, the twist no one saw coming. Her father, the same man she was desperate to get away from all those years ago,

became one of the key players in helping her break free. Now, leaving a cult is most certainly a trying task. Most listeners understand that by now. The mental slash inner departure is usually more difficult than the physical one and can often take months or even. even years. Keyword, usually, because sometimes the physical exit from a cult as is as easy as simply not showing up on a Sunday. But other times, it's risking your life, like in the case of Pamela. It was as though Pamela was planning a prison break, but her warden, i.e. her

dick of a husband, was sleeping right next to her. Every fifth night, of course. Of course. So Pamela's every move had to look like obedience. Every step towards freedom had to blend into life as usual inside the colony. So he didn't know I was trying to leave, but I felt like he would force himself on me and like he had done before and I would end up pregnant. And if I got pregnant again, I wouldn't be able to have the strength to do what I needed to do and be pregnant.

So I purchased sperm inside. It makes me laugh. I went to Walmart when I was up in New York, Utah. And I purchased not just one box. There's 20 suppositories. I don't know how many you're in there. I took eight boxes of them. I don't know what I was thinking. Oh, I do. Your hoo-ha was thinking, not today, Satan. Not fucking today. Hoo ha's are nasty, aren't they? They're angry. That hoo-ha was. That who-ha was like, uh-uh. Vigina dentitis. Do you know what vagina dentitis is? It is a psychosis whereby men believe that the vagina has. The vagina has

teeth. Is that something like a religious trauma? It's a Latin term for a toothed vagina that refers to a mythical folk tale and a symbol of male sexual anxiety. Oh, it's not mythical, guys. It's a real thing.

I got to go brush my vagina's teeth right now. Don't forget to floss. I didn't know how long it would take or what it would take, but I thought I'll be damned if he's going to force himself on me and let me get pregnant and birth control was of the devil it was the sin of sins in fact I believed if anybody found out

I was on birth control I would probably get the blood atonement I was petrified and he would start playing his little games and try to force himself on you and he bring me flowers at lunchtime and I tell him no that I didn't want to that I needed a break and he'd read scriptures and Bible and tell me a bunch of stuff my baby would be screaming in the bed and he'd for some stuff on me. I couldn't fight him. Mentally, I couldn't fight him. But I made show, oh, I have to go potty. I make up stories. And I'd run in there and shove one of those

up there so fast. Why are you not getting pregnant? He was actively trying to figure it out. And it worked all the other times. I'd been married 19 years and been pregnant 17 times. And yet he couldn't figure it out. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait. Can you play that again? Says the person who edited this and listened to it nine times already. But can you play it again? I'd been married 19 years and been pregnant 17 times. Which is a lot. But let me guess you're going to give me a stat about somebody who beat her to it. Yes.

It's on my face, isn't it? You can see from the corners of my mouth. You're giving stat face. According to the Guinness Book of World Records, it's not even close to the record. But you know what, Liz? I'm going to give you this. I feel like you should read this stat because you're the only person here who has actually squeezed a child out of your Angry hoo-ha.

The record is 27 pregnancies. I said pregnancies, not children. This belongs to Russian Valentina Vasiliev, who between 1725 and 1765 gave birth to 16 pairs of twins, seven sets of triplets, and four sets of quadruplets for a total of 69 children. Yes. She never had a single birth. They were never any single children. 69.

I don't even know 69 people. I don't even know what to say. So, yes, commendable, Pamela, for your 17 pregnancies. But you got to get back in bed, sister, if you want to break old Valentina's record. How did she not die? I mean, eventually she did. I don't know, especially in 1725. 1725, nobody lived through childbirth.

Yeah, she was basically having the babies in the pig stye. most likely, with nothing but vodka to clean the babies. She had a husband who also had another wife, and I think she had like 30 children as well. So eventually he had, no, I think 85 children total is what he has, if I'm remembering correctly. And now Pamela is armed with spermicide and a newfound bravery usually reserved for those in battle.

She's locked in. So that was one of the things I had to start doing. had to start working on the paperwork, figuring out where we were going, where we were going to stay. And then I had to connivantly take some credit cards that he had that I'd found that had my name on them. And I found out how much money they had. I thought I'd live for at least a year or two on the $1,400 credit card and then another one that was $400. That was the most money I'd ever heard of in my life. So he had starved us out. He was so upset with me because I was getting rebellious that he went in and took all of my food. I was towing the line.

I'm being so respectful and doing everything right. He didn't know I was trying to leave. But his instinct may have caught on to something so she had to think fast. Well, he was trying to date a new girl, so I just told him, let me go and get a break and have a little vacation. And I'll come back and I'll help you with your next wife. He was trying to marry. And so he said, yes, but he was mistreating me. He says, we're going to get the money?

I said, I'll figure it all. He didn't know that I had anything figured out. I had two vehicles and I had eight children. I stole a check from his checkbook so that I could pay for the gas to get the vehicles gassed up. My sister owned the gas station, so I wrote out of check and filled both tanks

and we left the next morning at 6 o'clock in the morning and I truly believed that I possibly could lose my life because the teaching was that if a woman was rebellious, she would deserve the blood atonement. It was a fear that I had. So after nearly two decades living in a cult commune in Mexico, dealing with nasty sister wives, lice, abuse, lack of education, lack of self-worth, a constant fear of a vengeful leader, a vengeful God. Pamela sets out.

She leaves in a van with her six youngest kids, while two of her older boys followed behind in a small truck. All of the children simply believing they were going on a vacation. So my plan was to pick up their paperwork and then cross the border. so then I drove straight to the American consulate to see if my paperwork had gone through to see if I'd have the children's nationalization paperwork and it had not gone through. And they said, we need you to faxies again, blah, blah, blah, whatever they told me.

So now I was at a crossroad either go back to the colony, I would never have gotten away or keep going. So I decided to keep going into America, risk it, and cross my children as illegal. So I ran into the grocery store, I got some food because we hadn't eaten, so the kids were all hungry, and I bought two bags of oranges.

I had learned this drill a long time ago. I put one bag of oranges in my son's vehicle, and I put one bag of orange in the Plymouth Voyager van. The 16-year-old and the 12-year-old was in a vehicle. I told the boys to stay behind, and I said, Mommy's going to cross, and in one hour I want you to get in line and start making your way across the border.

I had the six children, nursing babies, all the rest with me. I got in line and started to drive, So I'm an American citizen, and in my mind, I thought, when I get there, at worst, I'll just try to get help. I didn't know what I'd ask for, but I was not going back to the colony. It's all I knew. So when we get to the border, we meet the agent McGuire. He comes up, asks us our citizen.

I have an American driver's license, and I'm still super soft-spoken and scared. And, I mean, he kind of had to get close to me when I was talking because I talked so soft. anyways he asks our citizenship and we had rehearsed you know Americans and where our address was I had the kids rehearsing it while we were driving up to the little what do you call it checks down anyways he gets there he says what are you bringing from Mexico oh I'm just bringing whatever it was bread and whatever and oranges and I knew he would choke on the oranges because you can't bring oranges into America

I already knew that he says oh oh miss you cannot bring the oranges I said okay so then I told the kids get me the back of oranges. They made all the rustle, all the noise. They had me, the oranges. I gave him to him. He takes them and drops them in the garbage and tells me to go on through.

So I cross on over, go one block away from the border and park on a dirt road, nurse my baby, and I tell the kids, I'm going to get your brothers because my son didn't have a legal driver's license.

No ID, nothing. I walked through the American side where all American people are walking in, and I run into McGuire right there. And he's checking people into the United States. and then he said, what are you doing? I said, oh, I've got to go get my husband. His car broke down.

I think it's so stupid how I said that, but that is what I said. I looked like, I don't know what. He looked me up and down and just kind of shook. I said, just go, just go, he told me. So I did. And I was looking through the big glass building windows as I'm walking to get out of the building for my son's vehicle because I'm up high.

I think maybe I can see it, but I can't see it. So I get down low, I start looking, going back and forth. I'd instructed my son to be on the outside lane. So sure enough, after a lot, after a little while, I can see where they're at. They're kind of always down, so I burn over there. They're so relieved. I tell them to get out, you know, harm gets out, lets me in.

They're all excited, and mommy's here now. So we drive, and the vehicle that we're in is the little Toyota truck. We get to the checking station, and the gentleman asking us, whatever, whatever, your citizenship, what are you doing? Why would you bring in the same thing? Bring in oranges. Oh, you can't bring oranges into this country. Oh, sorry. Where are the oranges? boys? They gave me the oranges. I gave him, Jimmy drops him. And the thing he says, hey, I want you. And he sends us over to secondary. So that scared me. I thought, oh, shit, we're going to secondary. So they shifted us over to secondary. We're sitting in the vehicle. They send out the people that are to check. There's three or four guys. They come out and they start checking, looking in all of our suitcases. My boys are scared, shitless. They're looking under the seats. They're looking for drugs. They're looking in everything they're doing. They tell us to get back in our car. So we get back in our.

car just then I see a German shepherd coming. If I'm lying, I'm dying on my granddaughter's grave. This story is, for actually everything happened that I swear I can't believe it happened this way. And I just think it was a guardian angel. I see a German shepherd. And I recognize the dog, oh, a German shepherd. And I follow the leash and look up to see who's holding it. And it is Mr. McGuire. Agent McGuire is holding that dog. And that dog is smelling these vehicles going up and down and they get to my vehicles and he sees me and he recognizes me he pokes his head into the vehicle and tells me you're up to something and it's starting to get dark and there's six little kids right over there parked in the country they know nothing about with nothing mommy's not there

and I'm over here with the boys and now this guy is saying you're up to something I was petrified and I felt like everything in me was coming and just saying please leaves, let me go. And just then the dog yanks on that leash and it pulls him and he gets out of the vehicle and follows the dog to the next car over.

I never saw him again. They blew the whistle. Let us out of there. I never in my life I felt like I wanted to kiss the ground as I did that day, especially America. And I got to where my kids were. They were

overjoyed. These innocent beautiful, chappy little perfect braid-haired girls, all wanted to have a vacation with mom, and they had no idea that their life had just changed forever. And I grabbed my baby and nursed her, got on the road, stopped off at a gas station, bought the kids, all kinds of junk food. I felt like I was filthy, rich.

Swipe those cards, they worked. And we drove all night, and I couldn't drive far enough away. And the following night we stayed at a hotel. I took the kids to the swimming pool and they all had their street clothes on because swimming suits and shorts were of the devil and that's all we had and they're swimming happy as can be and I'm looking at them

realizing that my whole world was changing. I was scared but I had gotten that far and I just kept saying, you know, this is as far as I got today and when I meet you God, we'll have it out but until then I'll just keep going and I didn't know what the next day was going to look like. I just had to just say yes for today,

and I watched them swimming in the small till six swimming pool there, got the kids' pizza, and they were just, their vacation has started, and they've been on this perpetual vacation for 26 years. I'm not crying, you're crying. I'm not crying. You're crying. Okay, I'm crying. I know, I totally have chills. Hey listeners, so if you listen to the show a lot, you know that Quince has completely ruined me.

I just got another pair of their bamboo PJs because it's literally the only thing I reach for anymore. And to be honest, I might need like a temporary block from their website for a few weeks. But then it's so hard because the prices are so good and I'm like, but I do need that cardigan because it is getting colder outside. The truth is, I have never had shoppers remorse with Quince. Their stuff is amazing quality and almost always exceeds my expectation. And I can feel good buying from them because Quince works directly with ethical, top-tier factories, and skips the middleman, so everything is like half off or less of what

similar brands would charge. Which is why suddenly everything in my life must be cashmere. So Quince, thank you for spoiling me and also please someone take away my login. But not before I get one of their insane Italian wool coats. Oh, my God, they look so pretty. But now, with the holidays, I will be turning my purchasing away from myself and towards my family and loved one for the sake of, well, everyone. Tomorrow, because I need to quickly go get their holiday spice candles

because they already ran through the pumpkin ones, and they were delicious. So step into holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished, and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com slash cult for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. now available in Canada, too, eh? That's Q-U-I-N-C-E-com slash cult to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash cult.

And from the ashes, Rose the badass warrior Phoenix herself, Pamela fucking Jones, putting the rest of us to absolute shame. With just a little help from a couple bags of oranges, a quick mind and a furry guardian angel, Pamela, made it. At least into America. With nine children and less than $2,000.

So what the fuck do you do now? I mean, you can't just keep motel six swimming and eating pizza? Not with this inflation. Pizza's $70 today. the real hard stuff started once I crossed that border and I realized I no longer was going to be able to hang my hat on a victim post that I was going to have to take everything on my shoulders all the years that I was with my father I was a victim to that

and all the years I was married to the father of my children I could be a victim and it was all his fault but when I left I realized that I had to step into my own shoes and say what do you want and what responsibility do you have and that took a lot of work because everything was overwhelming and I was so full of fear and I didn't know what the truth was. The first thing I decided to do

which I think was pretty doggone-smart on my part is figure out who I was. And so I looked down in between my legs, I think, oh, I think I'm a girl. So I knew that was true. And that might sound silly or whatever, but you had to start somewhere.

The vagina is and always has been the portal to truth. You know, I kind of thought it was a penis. Now that's the portal to delusions of grandeur. Grand being the operative word in that. It's so funny because if women had penises, that would never be our thought. We would always be like, hey, it's not big enough. But men are like, mine is probably much bigger than it really is.

Women would be running straight to the dermatologist to get filler to plump up their dick lips. That's true. That's true. And then they'd show it to all their friends. Look, what do you think of my penis? It looks great, doesn't it? Oh, my God, you took 20 years off your penis. Oh, my God.

Where do you get your balls done? And I just started getting to know who I was. And what happened as time went on, anything that did not match who I believed I was or I was evolving to be, then I wanted nothing to do with it. But first came the logistics, which is nine kids in tow

and probably never downloaded the Waze app before. So where the hell does she go? Well, she goes to the one place outside of her cult where having nine kids doesn't feel like an oddity. Welcome to Utah! I was 34 and I landed in Utah, Sandy, Utah, because that's where the city that I knew the best, because that's where my ex-husband would sell his pine nuts,

and that was my stepping stone. So we started there, and I really wanted to rent my own place. I've never rented a home, and I find this beautiful house, and it's four bedrooms, and a bathroom and a half and a kitchen and a living room for $7.50 a month. But you don't have this credit cards. I can live here for a while, according to me. Anyways, I rent the place.

Our first night, I bought a TV. That was my first sign of rebellion. I bought a TV, and the kids were just in heaven. We all curled up in the living room with a blanket and laid there watching TV, and my kids were so happy. So as I ventured out into America and started living in the real world, I had a lot of things to learn. And I realized real quick that I was going to have to love.

learn to use my voice, to speak up and speak out if I was going to get anywhere, because I'd never really spoken to outsiders, and it was so hard for me to speak up and ask for what I wanted. So, listening to Pamela Speak, as we have been doing for three episodes, one would assume that she's always been this talkative, this verbose, this loquacious, this garrulous. But she hasn't always been this way. You see, coming out of the cult, she was rather quiet around strangers, and she needed to work on asking for things. And the best place to learn how to use your voice, the drive-through, of course. I wanted to ask, can you just give me the song?

You know, the song that everybody sings, and that was easy, I could say. To all beef, patty, spess, slash, let cheese, pickles, onions on a system seed bun. I had memorized that song when I was a little girl. Okay, I've been relatively quiet on factoid in these three episodes, but I feel like I kind of just have to. The phrase, to all-beef, patty, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun

began in the early 1970s as a training slogan to help McDonald's employees remember the Big Mac's ingredients. Then marketing realized it was catchy, and they turned it into a jingle. Now, for those who were alive at the time, which

doesn't include you two, this jingle was a cultural event. It really basically became a schoolyard chant, and it sent sales of Big Mac's skyrocketing. As well as early onset heart disease. In the mid-1980s, actually McDonald's took making music further. It released a flexi vinyl record of a song called The Menu Song. You probably heard this, maybe, and it distributed 80 million copies. Here it goes.

Here goes. Here it goes. Big Mac Mac Mac DLT, a quarter pounder with some cheese. a fish, a hamburger, a cheeseburger, a happy meal, McNugas, tasty, golden, French, rice, regular, or a larger size, a salad, shepherd garden, or a chicken salad, oriental. One of those 80 million records was a million-dollar winner, and trust me, when I say that I went so far down the rabbit hole about the poor Appalachian kid who won the million dollars, but his mom took the money, she opened a store, gave everything away, basically, lost all

money to a boyfriend who stole it, and then life got progressively worse for her and for him until she died penniless in her sister's trailer. It's a great story. Yes, it's true. It's a great story. I relished that I was able to do it, yes. That's horrible. Well, now back to our story, okay, Pamela finding her voice in a drive-thru. So when I drove through, I wanted that. And that was easy. I could say, can I have the song, two all beef, patty, special, sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and it says seed bun. To all beef, patty, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun.

But no, I was going to have to be able to ask. So I finally mustered up the courage and tried as hard as I could to speak as loud as I could and said, I'll have a burger. And right away, the lady on the intercom says, can you get closer? I can't hear you, ma'am. Speak up. I'm like, oh my gosh.

Typically what happens when I'm told to speak up, I go into my shell and I speak softer, so sure enough, that's how it was. I was able to finally get her to understand I wanted a burger, but then she asked if I wanted fries and something about supersized or whatever it was, and that's all it took, and I drove straight past the pickup window, didn't even make eye contact and just got out of line. And I told myself not today, Ms. Jones. As time would have it, I'd finally say, okay, today's a day,

so I'd do it again, pull up, and I was like, okay, I can do it. And I'd get a little further, but then they would ask, you know, sometimes people had an accent and then I couldn't really hear what they were saying and I was so scared. And I, it feels like to me it took a hundred times around before I could finally order my hamburger and go to the drive-through window, pay for that and receive my burger because it took everything within me to be able to use my voice to order that burger, something that we all take lightly and for granted. And I believe that all of us have a purpose and in our life, all through the fabrics and threads of, our lives are the signs that point toward why we were here and what we're doing. First, it was I was soft-spoken and my voice was taken from me. I was a female, was to be seen, not heard, I was shut down, I was tongue-tied, I was bilingual, all the things that I had trouble with, couldn't even order a burger, but I did it.

I mean, if there ever was a scene that captures what it looks like to start the deprogramming from a cult, I gotta say, this is it. All right, listeners, so yes, it's that time of the year, which is great, and it's also a lot. Holidays, parties, family, extended family, kids melting down, adults melting down. So what I just need to slow down and relax, I love an out-of-office gummy from Seoul. Oh, yeah. Now I'm picking up what you're sending, Liz. Soul, it's a great brand.

They believe the feeling good should be fun and easy. they specialize in delicious hemp-derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood. I'm talking to you, Becky, your mood. Don't ruin Thanksgiving this year, Becky. Don't do it. No, don't talk to your father-in-law that way. You might need a lot of soul this Thanksgiving, guys. Take an office out of gummies.

They're perfect. Good news. I like them. I take them. I don't wake up feeling like, I don't know, a chimney sweet. Whatever that means, Tyler. I love that you can also choose your own strength, so know your dosage, guys. I am a microdosage person because I am a lightweight, but hey, they go all the way up to 15

milligrams, so you do you. Yeah. You do you. For you, Jody. I know you're a 15 milligram kind of girl. It's the only way Jody can show up to Thanksgiving. But for me, I take the beverage. They have these cold beverages, and it's like out-of-office beverage, glug, glug, glug.

It's great when you want to feel social. have a good time and you don't feel like you're bloated from beer or a chimney sweep which i still don't know what you're talking about well as back in the 1800s uh chimney sweeps there were these suit covered kids and they used to crawl through flus and clean them out and they kind of looked exhausted and vaguely haunted and i don't want to feel that way okay i get it do you i get it do yeah was that was it necessary yeah wasn't it Alex It's necessary out there, Alex, you're nodding your head. So you, listener, please take advantage of Soul's Black Friday Cyber Monday deal right now.

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Okay, so Pamela is out of the cult, and she landed in Sandy, Utah. Now, look, I'm a former Utah, and Sandy, which is located between progressive Salt Lake and very conservative Mormon Provo is a really odd cultural zone. It's manicured lawns, it's blonde women and oversized SUVs hauling around six or seven kids. It's shocking lack of decent restaurants. And they have the strange Utah accent. It's basically a lazy version of English.

Nails become nils. Meals become mals. Mountains become mountains. And ING often becomes ink. So... Working ink on a mall. Yeah. Working on a mall.

Working on a mall. And then, of course, There's the dirty sodas. Dirty sodas. Dirty sodas. Okay, so this is real. So, Mormons, obviously, they can't drink alcohol or coffee, and so they drink soda. And soda.

And soda, and soda, and soda. And throughout Utah, there are actual soda shops. There are drive-through soda bars everywhere. They're omnipresent. And you don't just drive through and order a Dr. Pepper. No. You get a dirty soda. You get something like, for example, called a spring fling.

This is a Dr. Pepper with strawberry puree and vanilla and coconut cream. This beautiful monstrosity, well, it clocks in a day, bold 610 calories. That's basically a home mall. Not a really healthy mile. No. No. I'd have to burn a lot of calls. Calories, yeah.

I'd have to do a full hour of swimming. There are hundreds of these drinks. They have names like the Flirty Flamengo and Unlucky Ducky. And whenever you drive past these shops, which is what I do, just drive past them because I've never been in one. But there's a massive line of cars outside, morning, noon, and night. And if you go inside, there are people just hanging out. They're just hanging out. Like, it's a bar or a coffee shop.

Well, I'm very glad they're not drinking coffee because that would be very unhealthy. So this Sandy, Utah, this sugary suburban wonderland. And this is where Pamela landed after the cult. The call. The call. So that's where I started. I rented my first home. I put my kids in public school.

I had never done that. My biggest adventure of every day was going to the mailbox and getting all this mail that was sent to me. I'd go and I'd grab the mail and I'd say Pamela Jones and it would say two burgers for the price of one. And Arby's wants you to have this. And I couldn't believe that Arby had thought of Miss Jones. Coming from this cult, not even been able to have a burger, but you know what, Ms. Jones, you're so brave.

You can have two burgers for the price of one and the special sauce, and if you can say curly fries, you can have that too, all for the price of one. I couldn't believe that. Then I would see all these credit cards that say, Ms. Jones, a $500 credit card. Just filled this out. I was so excited before you know it. I had 13 credit cards. They wanted me to have their money. No one had ever given me money before.

I was paying the minimum. My goodness, I could get $1,000. for $2,99.99. Oh, my goodness. So before you know, we were living on credit cards for a little while. I will never, ever, ever, ever look at junk mail the same way again. So how did Pamela do it? The same way single mothers have taken care of their children in the face of impossible odds, they just fucking do it. Mama bears. Never underestimate the one who holds the truth portal. You can just say vagina, Liz. Well, I needed beds.

So we figured out how to get beds. I drove to the mattress facility where people dropped off their unwanted mattresses and they were waiting for the garbage or whoever took them all away. I'd go and load my little van with all these beds. Went home and all my kids had beautiful beds and bed spreads and I'd go driving down the streets and I'd see signs that safe for free. I'd be so excited. That chair's so nice and it's free.

I'd tie that up on the back of my van and figure. it out. Before you know, I had furnished my whole home. I went behind grocery stores. Have you seen the food that people throw away? Oh my gosh. So now I'm filling my refrigerator with half-boiled fruits and vegetables and dented cans of soups and sauces and whatever it was and the day-old bread and old cakes and smashed stuff. I mean, I was being able to use real toilet paper instead of phone books for the first time in my life. And I didn't have to worry about getting all the ink stains out of my children's underwear anymore. I had arrived. I was doing and living the American dream, according to me. You know the old saying, one man's trash is another woman's post-cult freedom. And speaking of uncomfortable ass wipes, what happened to David? Life is gone pretty good. Ex-husband's coming back in town trying to manipulate me, and I don't allow it.

I learned to stand for myself, and he calls to check on me. His brother is the one who has the phone, and I happen to be at the park, and his brother brings me the phone and says, oh, your husband wants to talk to you, so I pick up the phone and I tell him I want to divorce. That voice just keeps getting louder, baby. So my boys start getting a job. They're going to work drywall,

and I'm going to start cleaning houses. Not everybody's going to want to do what I did. I had nine kids, and I'm a perfectionist. So for me to keep the standard of cleanliness in my home, I had to be efficient. I had to have hacks. I had to find tricks that made things last. So when I went out to clean, my first few clients,

the house would probably take an average person four hours. I could get it done in two and a half hours. But it still wasn't learning curve. And soon, her talent could no longer go unnoticed. I was making a little bit of money, and then I decided to move to Minnesota because my sons were moving there to work. So I followed them, started my cleaning company,

passing out fires, cleaning, before you knew, I was cleaning an 11 houses a week, and that was my max. So then I picked up the girls at school, and they started helping me, and then I hired my first hire, and I kept going. Anytime people would call me and say, can you do this, can you do that? How about this? I say, yeah, my girls

and I can do that. And I would say my girls. So I decided to name the company my girls. Oh, that's cute. My girls. Well, wait a minute. I had no idea. It was a porn site name until long after I started the whole business. And my pastor brought it to my attention. Like, you know what that is?

And I'm like, no wonder we keep getting all these weird calls. So how many girls do you send? And do you send a body girl? Are they topless? And I think, no, they're my daughter. It's a little innocent me. I didn't realize it. But we rebranded as exclusive services.

Pamela, my girls, exclusive services. You didn't want to workshop that one with anyone? I think it's great. I think it's better than my girls. Although, starting to think there may be a side hustle in this cleaning company. So now Pamela is officially divorced from David. Later, Dick. And it's about time.

She gets what she so desperately deserves, which is real, respectful love. Anyways, fast forward, working my hind-off. Kids are starting to get married. They're falling in love and bringing in new in-laws. And while I had been on 34 dates, through my time of being single, and I was exhausted, and I just thought, I'm so tired of this dating thing. It's the same thing. It's always sexual, and no one seems to put forth the effort, and I wanted something more. I wanted integrity. I wanted to talk about great things, and I wanted to grow, and I wanted to share.

And it's true. I mean, there are actually good men out there in the world. Am I right? Yes, so I met my sweetheart in 2011, so 11 years after I had left the cult, I metamani Harmony. And she goes to meet him in person. There's this beautiful man with this gorgeous smile. And I see this smile and my heart starts pounding. They go to a restaurant, but they didn't eat. We never ordered any food, and we talked for four hours straight.

I left there thinking, well, I'd never met a man like that. We just couldn't stop talking, and the rest is history. We've been together for all these years. Yep, sometimes I wish I had a sister-wife to share them with, so I don't. I'm kidding you. I never wish that. That sounded funny. God bless her sense of humor. We'll be right back.

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on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. So Pamela's got a nice man. She's got a nice family. She's got a happy Minnesota life. Oh, yeah. Go ahead, Liz. Go ahead. You gave me stats.

Go ahead. So you're from Mexico, eh? Sounds warm down there. I almost want a trip to Cancun once in one of those, guess the number of jelly beans in the jar thing. Never did win. Oh, a cold, huh? That sounds a bit scary.

Hey, Peter. Make me some popcorn. This story's getting juicy. So Pamela, she's running her cleaning business, which is definitely not a porn site. But it is still exclusive. Kept growing, growing. We have 45 employees and one day get a call from my accountant. She says, welcome to the Millionaire Club.

And I said, what? Yep, you are a millionaire. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I have a million dollars of bills and a million dollars. But unlike the McDonald's menu winner, Oh, don't bring him up again. Pamela actually earned this million dollars. That's right, she did. And now, you know what that means?

She gets to spend it. One thing is to make money and take care of a family and raise a family, but I never knew how to actually spend money and enjoy money. And I didn't feel like I really was able to truly enjoy that or step into that until around the time I met my husband or a little time after that. And through him, I learned how to spend money on myself, how to actually spend money. I mean, incredible, truly incredible. In, the credible is in.

I don't know. Yeah. If you've forgotten, this was a woman who was living in a sheep pen, cleaning out houses. Unbelievable. And starving. Do not be believed. It is unbelievable. She was eating corn cobs from the pigs.

And now she's a millionaire. Now she's eating caviar off your ass, David. Mm-hmm. Brick. But at some point, she did have to face the music of her past, which was that she was raised in the C-word. And I heard someone talking about a cult, and they were talking. It was a movie. It had to do with a cult, and they were talking about the belief in what was going on in the movie.

And it scared me for a moment because I thought cult was like satanic evil thing, which it is evil. But anyway, so I couldn't accept it. And I just thought, no, I thought, and it took me a while to sit there. I had to go and I looked it up and researched it and realized that there was no denying it that I had come from a cult, for sure. But it was hard. It took me a long time before I could utter the word cult. And then even when I would say it, I would just feel so scared that was I extremely exaggerated.

And it took a lot, a lot of work. So after years of having an extreme religion essentially forced on her, where is she now when it comes to her belief? I became super spiritual. I don't believe in any kind of religion. I've only seen heartache from all religions. So I honestly don't attend church anymore. I had probably stopped going about eight years ago.

One of the good things is right after I left within the first year or two, women started leaving the cult right and left, and they realized that the fear that they had everybody under was a lie because God did not strike me by lightning. He never killed me or any of my children. And in fact, I was being blessed. People started saying, if Rina can do it with nine children, I can do it with five, I can do it with six.

And as for the LeBaron group, it still lives on, albeit it's not as strong as it once was. The decline hastened, actually, by Pamela's exit. The church has dismantled. As soon as the originals all passed, which they all have, there was not near the power. But a lot of these older men are not marrying the young girls anymore. been done away with. But they do marry cousins, like heavily, heavily cousin marriages. And that was going on a little when I was there, but it's really bad now. They don't have no one else to marry. But the LeBaron name didn't just disappear. That's going to be hard when you have

like five million wives and 75,000 children. It's true. Very true. In 2019, actually, members of the extended family made headlines again, this time as victims of a horrific cartel. ambush in Mexico. A massacre of nine people. Three women, six children occurred. Now, it is difficult to find numbers on the group and what their size is currently, but without question, it's not what it used to be. I mean, we didn't even get to get into all of the cartel stuff. No, man, it's a lot. It's a lot. That's scary. Yeah. And I don't think this is giving anything away about her book, but she does end it around the passing of her father, which, when I read it, felt like some sort of full circle healing moment.

And when it comes to my father, he had Lyme's disease for a while. The last time I saw him when I went to visit him and realized that the freedom that I was seeking and what I really wanted was never going to be complete unless I had forgiven my father. And when I went to see him that day, I realized I had forgive him. And people ask me, how did you forgive your father?

And I said, the way I did it is I learned to love myself so much that I did not want to carry around the pain or the resentfulness or the hate or the anger that had come from that body, that man. I didn't want to carry it anymore. And I forgave him because I loved myself. I forgive because I love myself too much. I'm going to actually take that I'm going through something right now I'm going to forgive because I love myself

too much guys we all love you too much Liz we all do sadly Pamela's mother passed as well with my mother

it was nothing but love and gratitude for the woman that she was and I understand that she had a long suffering life with my father and the beliefs of the cold and she struggled to learn to ever value and love herself because it wasn't taught. And I think that she demonstrated the love she had for herself when she came to Minnesota to pass. She was here for 45 days and it's a gift she gave us.

I saw her take her last breath and I realized that love that I love so much and she gave to me was still somewhere and left. And I still hurt over my mother's passing only because there was so much life to be had. She would be so proud of me, writing my book. She'd be so proud of a lot of the things I've accomplished. A book. A book. A book. She went from having a fifth grade education to make it a million dollars and writing a book.

Not reading a book. Writing a book. What's your excuse, Tina? Yeah, Tina. Get down to your laptop. Write that book. I bet you what Tina writes in and like, How did you know?

I've been stuck. She's going to send us a copy of her book and be like, you inspired me. Will you read the first chapter? Yes, I will, Tina. I will read the first chapter. Send it to me. Info at wasanacal.com. I'll give you a poll quote.

You can put it on the cover. A spectacular, awesome read. As we were moving through life, I felt like I needed to do some kind of thing that would give a solid foundation to my children and more so my grandchildren. and I feel like they needed to know how we got here and why grandma was the way she is. And I thought about it for 10 years before I was able to do it. And every time I'd sit down to write, there was so much pain I couldn't do it. All I would do is cry. So then I'd put it away.

So I knew the timing wasn't right. But back in 2017, when I started writing, in hopes of healing and motivating and inspiring other women, and in hopes of saying, you know what, this little Miss Nobody at one point was able to come from pigweed to caviar, from signing her name in the dirt to signing her name thousands and times on payroll with a fifth grade education, then you can do that too. So that's what motivated me to write it. What I wasn't expecting is the vulnerability, and I'm getting the chills why I'm telling you this. I feel like my legs are up on the stirrups and everybody's looking in and I feel so vulnerable, but I'm okay with that. the title of my book is the dirt beneath our door and the reason we chose that is I lived

you know out in dusty roads out in farmland so I was constantly cleaning throughout all my life like if I could just get that dirt out from under the door and just to get that dirt that way of thinking that get it out from under the door of my life and it has lots of little meanings but my goal right now is to share my story with as many people as I can and we can give a voice to others. If I could go back and help that little girl or even help do something that could change my life, I think about it and then I think I'm not willing because the chances of that altering who I am today is not a risk I want to take. I just wouldn't want to.

So I'm telling you right now, I freaking love this life. I love how hard I had to work to get where I'm at. And I love the example I've set for my children. and I believe every woman can have her dream because we can get a lot more done by acknowledging our gifts and accepting our beauty and the things that bring us together

there's more that joins us you and I than ever but we can do super hard things and I'm living proof that we can and we can come out okay on the other end hopefully that sums it up pretty good yep that sums it up

Pretty nicely. Sums it up actually incredibly well. I don't know if we can do any better. From dirt to dollars to dignity. She still did it better. I know you tried to be poetic there. No, I tried. I stepped up to the plate.

I did all right. Pamela really already crushed it. Pamela, you are a very special person. You definitely touched my heart in our time together. So thank you for sharing. Yeah, that was remarkable. That was a hell of a story. That was a ride from beginning to end.

Thank you, Pamela. It was a pleasure. Her book is in our show notes. So check it out. Read it. We'll be back next week when we talked to the journalist behind Allison after Nexium. Yes, Allison Mack. About the complicated deprogramming of a cult when you weren't just the victim, but also the perpetrator.

I don't know that she understood the power that she had and the fact that she could hurt these people or if she did she got off on it perhaps and she acknowledges that as well that there was a part of her that like enjoyed having power over these like young hot women and that's really rough like that's rough to admit

that is not a nice thing to hear or say or you know Was I a cult hosted by Liz Fagina Dent Titus Iacuzzi And Tyler I clearly never saw a vagina until I was 40 mesum

And Rob who just got a ball lift para Keeping them high and tight. Thanks, everyone for listening. If you made it this far, I commend you. Welcome back, Rob. We missed you. This November, action is free on Pluto TV.

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