Was I In A Cult? - The Lost Children of Scientology Pt2: “Free At Last”

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

(Content warning: child abuse, psychological trauma, and forced labor.)What happens when a child escapes a cult… only to be hunted, harassed, and invoiced for the “honor”?In Part 2 of Jamie Mustard’s staggering story, we pick up with his teenage years— going deeper into the reality of life inside Scientology’s Sea Org—the labor, the fear, the indoctrination, and the slow, devastating unraveling of family.But this is more than a story of survival. It’s about a boy who was stripped of education, family, and identity… and still found a way to outsmart the system that tried to erase him. It’s about rewriting your future when you were never taught how to read the past. It’s about the children who were trained to never speak out—and the rare few who do.An unforgettable chapter in one of the most important cult stories we’ve ever told._____Come See Us LIVE!Join us in Los Angeles on July 10th at Dynasty Typewriter for our first-ever Was I In A Cult? live show—featuring special guest Moses Storm! GET YOUR TICKET HERE!Pre-Order Jamie’s Book:Jamie Mustard’s powerful memoir Child X drops July 30th. Pre-order now and support his story of survival, resistance, and hard-won freedom.Follow Us for More Culty Content:Instagram & TikTok: @wasiinacultShare Your Story:Have a cultic experience of your own? We want to hear it.Email us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, Podcast One, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. Please note this episode includes discussions of child abuse, psychological trauma, and forced labor. Listen appropriately. Listen appropriately. When I talk about Lost Children of Scientology, it just goes on and on. My younger brother was on that camp because at 16 he had sex with his girlfriend, and they put him on hard labor and indoctrination for seven years. He was not allowed to walk for seven years, run everywhere wearing black, and you're only allowed to speak if spoken to. You eat slop and you live in like the tunnels with the rats.

This is why it's so important that we talk about the lost children. Welcome to What's Eye in a Cold Time. Welcome to What's Eye in a Cold Time, Tyler Meesom. And I'm Liz Zyacuzzi. And before we hand you guys over to Scientology's version of, I don't know, The Hunger Games, a little reminder that Tyler and I are going live in LA, Los Angeles. That's right. July 10th, in fact, rapidly approaching, we will be performing at the little, wonderful, fantastic theater known as the Dynasty Typewriter.

It's at 730 on the 10th of July, and we have a special guest, Mr. Moses Storm. He is a wonderful soul and hilarious comedian who grew up in what he describes as a failed doomsday cult. We even have VIP tickets, in fact, where you get to hang out with us, you get to see me, and you get to make fun of Liz in person instead of just yelling at your radio. And I think Tyler will let you pet his hair for a dollar a minute. The price might go up by then. We'll see.

Cost of inflation. We can't wait to meet all of you and talk all things cults in the flesh. Link to our show notes. It's a night of cults. It's a night of comedy, catharsis and other C words. Cool cats and cookies. All I can think of is a naughty C word. Which I won't say. Thanks, Liz, for not saying what everyone's thinking.

Which I won't say. Thanks, Liz, for not saying what everyone's thinking. Ah, Cornell. OK, so now for today's episode. This is part two of Jamie Mustard's harrowing tale of growing up in the Sea Org, which is the elite inner circle of Scientology. Last week, he mentioned that he hates calling it that and all of the culty words it comes with, so we will continue to try to find different things to call it, like science lost on me.

Or scamantology. Oh, I like that. Now, if you haven't heard part one, suffice to say go back and listen to it. Otherwise, it'd be like starting, I don't know, Titanic, right when the ship splits. It'd be like starting, I don't know, Titanic, right when the ship splits. Or Speed, when Sandra Bullock hits the baby stroller and Keanu gives the iconic line, it's OK. It's cans. They were just cans. It's cans. Give it to us Rob. Give it to us, Ron. Wow! Cans! I can take a bite of it! Cans!

Oh my gosh! There was no bit! It was full of cans! Are you sure? Yes. Are you sure? Yes. Oh my god!

OK, so here's a quick refresher on the story Jamie was born into Scientology's military arm, the C-Org. He was separated from his mother at birth, forced into dormitories with rats, bathed in shared buckets, and punished for just having basic needs. It sounds like going to Florida State. Go FSU! At seven, he lived through the FBI's biggest raid in history up to that point, and no one even asked about the kids. But Jamie gets out.

And not only that, he overcomes illiteracy and thrives against all odds. And in true was I in a cult fashion yes this story has a happy uplifting ending but before we get there why don't you continue where you left off Jamie. Take out your knife. Purify me. Don't spare my life. Crucify me. So I go through this house of horrors in the Melrose building, public spankings, beatings. That was the worst period of like physical pressure on my body as a child.

Illnesses, whatever. Then I make it to the big blue building where I'm in the FBI raid and a fire. My mom has a medical condition. She had a medical issue in the church. They couldn't agree on the medical program. And so my mother, we had to leave for her to live. We escaped. My mother and my stepfather came to me one day and they said, you can't tell anyone you're

not allowed to say goodbye to any of your friends. You're going to be getting in a car tomorrow at midnight and driving to Oregon. And if you tell anyone, your mother will be sent to the prison camp or whatever. And we moved to Eugene, Oregon when I'm 13 years old for two and a half years. Sounds like a typical religion, having to skip town for a couple of years to get medical treatment and not telling anyone so that you don't get sent to prison camp. That is a definition of the true enlightenment that religion brings. So after those two and a half years.

I come back. My older brother was 18, he stayed in Eugene. My grandmother had told me on the way back, she said, I would like you to not go back to L.A. and stay here, but you have to deal with your literacy. That was the condition. And I just said, no way. I was too broken. Like the idea of like at 16, trying to face that was crazy.

I just and I wanted to see my friends. When I come back, all my friends are living on the street. They told every kid over the age of 14, if you don't sign the billion year contract, you have to leave and you can't live with us anymore. They gave them a choice. The kids didn't want to do it. All my friends are living in the street.

No, dozens and dozens of kids, 14 through 16, right by the big blue building to be close to their parents. But we were on our own at 16. Okay, so those who aren't familiar, and I don't blame you if you're not, the Billion Year Contract is Scientology's lifelong pledge of loyalty. More than lifelong, it's signed by members of the C-OrG, including all the children, committing them to serve the church for the next billion years. Because a million wasn't insane enough.

Stupidest thing I've ever... Stupidest thing. It's just stupid. So I move into a slum paid for by the movement. Four of us are living there. I buy a car for 700 bucks. I have no insurance. It's not registered. I have no money. I have traffic tickets.

I'm going to court, you know, just like what a poor person deals with. I'm in that place for maybe six months and I find this wealthy Scientologist who says that I can live in his guest house. I'll drive his kids every day to the Scientology school. I go to Manhattan Beach and I'm staying staying with this rich orthodontist, and I'm still uneducated and poor as fuck. So I make a deal with a Scientology school that if I can work in their afterschool program,

they'll give me free tuition. They'll let me go to school there. And the problem, the only reason they did it is because my mother was respected in the Intercrete Navy as a counselor. Okay, in 1972, L. Ron Hubbard launched Applied Scholastics. This is one of Scientology's many front groups. These are organizations that appear secular or educational on the surface,

but in reality, they promote the cult's doctrine. Kids are taught using, quote, study tech, which includes things like word clearing and something called missing mass, where if you're learning about, say, cars and there's no actual car in the room, your brain allegedly malfunctions. Sorry, class, we can't study the moon landing today because our paper mache rocket ship hasn't dried yet, so we won't be able to get there safely. Today we cover the French Revolution. Please wheel in the guillotine and Sally, our sweet Sally, who will play the role of Marie Antoinette. Applied scholastics, making already awkward sex ed class even more awkward.

Hey, Brian, could you? Editor's note. Sorry, I'm going to have to cut here because Liz went off on this really, really explicit run and we have family members that listen to this and it just would be really inappropriate picking up right where she left off. And yes, these are real schools. In fact, they're accredited. And the crown jewel of these is the Delphian School, which is in Oregon. So I looked up Delphian and first of all, nowhere does it mention Scientology, of course.

And it took me a while to even find the reference to Applied Scholastics. But when you scroll all the way down to the bottom of their homepage, there it is. It's a little emblem, Applied Scholastics. And at first glance, the site makes it look like a totally normal-ish, I don't know, K-12 day in boarding school. Yeah, in fact, their website says, and I quote, At Delphian School, we prepare students for life by helping them master their academics and gain the skills and abilities they need to go anywhere.

And then later on, it actually calls the school a quote, place you have to see to believe. Said no one about a school ever. Except for Florida State. Go FSU. Side note, I actually called the school, I dialed admissions, I spoke to a guy, he was actually really nice. I posed as a parent with a child with potential interest in attending the school and I asked him about the philosophy and if the school was part of Scientology. And he said, and I quote, truthfully, no, but it gets glommed in because there's a

gentleman named Hubbard who many years ago discovered Dianetic Scientology and started to experience certain observations about learning, study, classrooms, et cetera. And then he did lectures on a great way to start a school, some study concepts, use the dictionary, gradients, lots of physical representation, other things. And a professor at Stanford who was studying the religion stepped aside and said, I wanna start a school with these concepts. So that's the basic connection.

No specific spiritual adherence is done at the school. There's a lot more to it, but that's the basic answer is what he told me. So it's like saying it's not technically NXIVM, but the entire curriculum was created by Keith Renieri. So NXIVM. Yeah, and then I asked if the teachings then were related to Scientology.

And he said, and there was a long pause. No, but there are study methods that gentlemen Hubbard came up with, so we use those. There are great writings on leadership, logic, basic ethics concepts, and these are used in non-religious ways all around the world, so we may guide the kids on these tools, but they don't have any religious reference to them. Yeah, that sounds like he basically just said, yeah, Scientology, just say it, dude. And then I asked, he even went out of his way.

He's like, we got a Mormon kid here, you know, we help him go to his Mormon church 20 minutes away. No. Okay. Well, then it's certainly not a cult. We have other cult people here. He said some of the faculty and students are Scientologists, but a large percent also aren't. He said that he himself is Jewish and Buddhist and has studied Scientology and pointed out

that they do support any belief. Of course they do, as long as one of those beliefs is Scientology and you sign a billion-year contract to work for them. Very fascinating. This does remind me a bit of our episode, Why's, if you remember that. beliefs of Scientology and you sign a billion-year contract to work for them. to come there, they're like actively recruiting. So they have a admissions touring guide. And last year they'd go abroad and they really targeted Asia. They went to Japan, Taiwan, Korea, China, and the other international place. And one is Mexico. Well, now we know a few things, the smarter you are.

So let's get back. Now that we've taken everyone down that 20 minute rabbit hole. Yeah, let's get back to Jamie telling his story. They graduated me from that high school and they gave me a high school diploma with me not being able to write. It was fucking disgusting. What's becoming very apparent to me is I'm going to have a life of manual labor ahead of me. I'm illiterate. I have no support. I have no protective mechanisms.

I've never had a job. I'm illiterate. I have no support. I have no protective mechanisms. I've never had a job. I meet this kid and he is a Brit kid from England, Tristan, and he becomes my best friend. Tristan convinces me that we should go join the movement and go work on their boat in the Caribbean, the free winds. How bad can that be? And we go to the recruitment office at the Big Blue and they're like, OK, we want to

join. We were stupid. OK, so we go to Florida. And once you're in, you're a slave. And they refer to you as a coin and they can trade you around. So one day they say to Tristan, we're trading you. You're going to the Fort Harrison. And then he goes off to train as a manager for being like a PhD. Me, they're like, you're staying here and you're gonna be a grudge.

Yeah, I get sent to the boat and I work there and it was nice being a bus boy in there. And then they start sending me around. They're like, we have an event in Canada. We want you to go and set it all up. Then they leave me in Canada for a few months and I hate it. Then they start sending me around to be like their rep, like their sales rep.

And I ended up working for this woman who's their top fundraiser. She made, you know, a million dollars a month for them. So they couldn't afford to have her off the job. So when she did something bad, they sent me for hard labor on the boat. So I'm flying into Aruba at 18 years old and I'm thinking I'm going to Aruba to be tortured. And there's a woman waiting for me at the top of the gangplank, this Hubbard emissary called a messenger, who's the highest ranking person on the whole boat, and she's got a jumpsuit and like a bucket and rags. She says put this on. She sends me deep into the engine room where there's a thing

called a bilge and they tell me I've got to start cleaning this thing that can't be cleaned. Four days later they're running me so hard in the engine room, I end up in the infirmary with heat exhaustion and I'm there for a week or two. They sent me to wash dishes in the galley, the crew galley. I was washing pots, staring out of the porthole, and I was imagining what regular people do, running, watching movies, all these things that I wasn't allowed to do. And I started having fantasies about it. But the real thing that started going on in my head was, I feel like I'm a slave. And this is why my ancestors are important.

I feel like maybe there was something in my DNA that made me know that I had had been enslaved. That was the word I was using and that was not a word I grew up with. I kept saying to myself, are you a slave? Are you a slave? And I just kept asking myself, are you a slave? Are you a slave? Are you a slave? Yeah, that was the first crack. But this had been his entire life. I mean, it was all he knew.

been his entire life. I mean, it was all he knew. And like all cults, the indoctrination of us versus them runs deep. So they're teaching you that the outside world is really dangerous because these are the unenlightened people. You're the walking, you're asleep. But we're awake. We know what's happening. The only reason someone's leave is because they have transgressions, period.

only reason someone's leave is because they have transgressions, period. He also taught that the only reason someone would ever criticize Scientology or Hubbard is because they're a criminal and they have severe crimes that they're doing behind the back. They're a pedophile. And they were also taught that the most truly evil people that have been responsible for all the evil in the history of the universe for trillions of years are psychiatrists. And they're responsible for everything bad that's ever happened on Earth. So where do you go get help if you're not in a cult?

You go to a psychologist. So even when you leave, you've been programmed your whole life to think that this person is evil. They're like psychiatrists like Charles Manson. Cults love referencing other cults. It's weird. Yeah, but always saying that they're worse. Yeah, right. It's not like us.

It's something else. We're not like them. But other groups don't do that. I mean, that's how you know you're in a cult. If your group is referencing cults all the time, you're probably in a cult. It's possible. It's possible. But, you know, I suppose the Red Sox can say we're not like the Yankees. That doesn't make them a cult. Red Sox nation, maybe, but not the Red Sox. It makes them a baseball team, which would make sense.

True. And on that stupid metaphor or comparison, we will be right back. Wasana Cult is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? You know, shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out? Well, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. It's great. Try it today at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.

Now Jamie, having been bounced from assignment to assignment, station to station, from Canada to the Caribbean, he'd spent his whole life being told that people who criticize Scientology are criminals and psychiatrists are the root of all evil. So even as his body broke down under forced labor and his mind began to question everything he'd been taught, he hadn't yet hit his breaking point. Until. And then I'm back in Florida. Something happens.

The woman gets in trouble, but I got blamed for it. And at 10 o'clock in the morning after I've been sleeping for two hours because I've been up all night, somebody knocks on my door and says, pack your shit. You have a plane to the Caribbean in two hours. I'll be back in two hours to pick you up and take you to the airport. And that was my moment. And then it was a very harrowing escape, but I couldn't just walk out. I'm on their compound. Right. So so I had to figure out how to get away.

I basically get away through this very complicated John Le Carre type event. I'm a 19 year old kid in dress whites. I'm wearing a naval uniform in central Florida. I have to pretend I'm doing my laundry and then kind of look, make sure no one's looking. Jump into a cab. I got to change cabs four times before I let this guy drop me off at a hotel area in downtown Tampa because they're going to track the cab. And meanwhile, looking over my shoulder, check myself into a hotel room under the name Mickey Mouse and pay with cash that I've been squirreling under my bed. First time I ever checked into a hotel, I was like, okay, I'm Mickey Mouse.

You know, went to sleep, slept for 24 hours. Called my grandmother in New York that had given me this literacy offer. And I said, remember that art offer you made me three years ago? She says, yeah. I said, does the offer still stand? She says, it does. Where are you? And I said, I'm hiding out in a hotel room in Florida. And she says, I'll send you a ticket. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no.

You can't do that. I'm gonna stay here for four days. And she said, why would you do that? And I said, because they're gonna be staking out the airport. I need them to think I'm long gone. So I waited four days at the hotel. And even then, there's so many Scientologists coming in internationally.

There's a van that goes back and forth every hour. And they're all over the airport. So getting past security and getting past the airport, and then it was a fucking weird flight. It was one of the last flights at Eastern Airlines. There's eight people on this plane. And it's me in the back with three people, this massive jumbo jet. And Naughty by Nature was in first class.

Hip hop, hooray, hey ho! You're down with OPP, right? Hip hop, hooray, ho, hey ho! Hip hop, hip hip hop, hip hip hop, hooray, hey! So he had to ride on this plane with Naughty by Nature, and then finally. And I get to JFK. I wasn't back two days.

And my grandmother was cool enough to not tell anybody where I was. But that same stepfather that saved me when I was a kid, a Sicilian, he lived in New York. So this man that was my father, he was the closest thing I ever had to a father, two days after, three days after I escaped, shows up at my house in Westchester County that night trying to find me. My grandmother said, you're going to stay in your room and I'm going to lie and you're not going to come out. I don't care how long he was here. He was probably there two hours.

I loved this man. I wanted to run out and see him. I loved this man. I wanted to run out and see him. Brutal. Well, they didn't find me for several weeks. And then one day they find out that I'm there. And then that's when the threats start. They're trying to get me to come back using carrots and sticks. Oh, you just had a bad day. We're going to send you a ticket and bring you home. Come home. Because they make you sell all these releases so you can't sue them for what

they did while you were in. These releases, he's referring to our legal documents. Scientology makes members sign often under pressure, forms like the religious services enrollment agreement, basically waiving your right to sue and forcing you into religious only arbitration. Of course, whether they hold up in court or not is another story, but they're often enough to intimidate people into silence. But when you get out, then those releases don't count and they harass people. And they were

stalking me. If you leave, they give you a bill for all the courses you did. So I leave and they give me a bill for 70,000, 70 to $90,000 for all the counseling and courses I did from the time I was zero to when I escaped at 19 or whatever, you know. That's insane. Yeah, it is insane. It's literally insane. It's not literally. It's not.

It can't be literally insane. Literally insane. No, it's not literally. Completely insane. Completely insane. I will tell you. Literally. no. What is the definition of insanity? They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing.

Is working with Tyler over and over, expecting different results. And they were threatening me. When I left, they said, if you don't come into Times Square and do interrogations, we're gonna declare you evil, suppressive, and you'll never be able to see your friends and family again. So, six months or after I leave, I'm going to Times Square every day, and I'm getting on the cans,

confessing my crimes, doing interrogations so that I don't lose all my friends and family. Damn, he was out, but then the fear mongering worked and got him back. One thing I'm really proud of is I didn't go up their thing to total their freedom thing and I didn't do the higher levels. I never did the confidential stuff.

It would have fucked me up a lot more than I am. You know, like most of the stuff that I did was interrogations. Like you have a problem and you go on the meter and talk about your problem. I mean I did a lot of interrogations. And then this time the idea is that you've done bad things and you're in trouble and they start interrogating you to find crimes. You basically start making something into a crime that you don't really think is a crime because you have to give them something. But his return this time was only to save face and hopefully keep his relationships

with his loved ones that were still in. My grandmother had told me, she was just like, you know, you can stay here if you're studying. And so, yeah, and then here I was, 19 years old, illiterate, and no future. And then I start doing tutoring and classes at a community college. And listen, what I went through,

the crucible that I went through in that two and a half years, the physical pain of dealing with my illiteracy every day, I feel like I internalize trauma in my body from trying to deal with letters and writing letters and math. That I feel like I have trauma or physical problems with my body from that period of getting over the illiteracy. OK, so Jamie, 19 years old, is totally illiterate. But get this modern neuroscience tells us that neuroplasticity, that's our brain's ability to rewire itself, never stops. Even as adults with consistent effort and probably some serious late night cramming sessions, people can build

entirely new neural pathways. Which is exactly what Jamie did. But one thing was different. I didn't have a gun to my head for the first time in my life. I was just there. First I got a word processor. So I typed. But it was a jarble.

So my grandmother would come and she would help me go through the whole paper and correct the commas. And then she started teaching me about my family history, started telling me about where I come from and who some of my relatives were. And they were these accomplished people. I plugged into this thing that was larger. And I remember one time she took me to New Haven to visit my grandfather's grave.

And her on the drive down there telling me about who he was and all the things he did and what our family overcame. And I remember sitting at the grave thinking, maybe some of him is in me. I realized that I was connected to something bigger than me. We're all connected to something bigger than us. And if we can find out what that is for us and plug into a larger matrix, it can give us strength that we don't even know we have.

And that was a catalyst to deal with my illiteracy. Every time I get beaten down, I would drive home and I would just make a decision to the sky that I would come back the next day and try harder. home and I would just make a decision to the sky that I would come back the next day and try harder. So I'm personally a lightweight like half a gummy and I'm more than good, which is exactly why I love Via Hemp. This company has tailored options to fit everyone's needs and their formulas are some of the best that I personally have seen. They use hemp derived ingredients with powerful cannabinoids like CBD, CBG for effect driven results. Currently, I am loving their THC flow state gummies for focus. They're packed with medicinal mushrooms, which I already love and take. And at the

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Tell them we sent you. Enhance your everyday with VIA. Then I went to this like small private college in New York after a year and I met a girl and she saw my plate and so she would let me dictate my papers to her and write them. And then slowly over that year that I was there she then said, okay, will you write them now? I just kind of, between this girl, helping me with all these classes and kind of just studying 24 hours a day, to the point that I was physically suffering, I was able to create this GPA that was not really realistic. And also, I think people just let it go higher

because I was trying real hard. And then when it was at its peak, after six months, I applied to the general course at the London School of Economics. I'm at the London School of Economics. We go there for a year, which if you're in Europe is, you know, equivalent to Harvard, Yale, and so one of the best universities in the world. Most of the people that go to the general course are going from Columbia, Harvard, whatever.

And because I had this kind of false GPA that was like propping me up, I figured they had to accept a couple people from small schools as part of their quota. But even though he's now out, the deprogramming takes time. I get into the London School of Economics with the smartest kids in the world, the children of kings and heads of state. There's probably never a moment where I was looking at a close friend of mine and thought, didn't have in the back of my mind that he was a Muggle. A Muggle, again, this is in Scientology, I had thought it was something in Harry Potter.

It is. A Muggle. It actually is. Is it? Yeah, a Muggle is a human in Harry Potter land. But it's also in Scientology. Yeah. They call someone who's outside of the church a Muggle and someone

who is enlightened. I didn't know that, Liz. Thank you. You're welcome. Muggle. And then when I'm in London, I feel like I'm free. I'm in another country. And then one day, I roll in and the receptionist at the dorm says, I have a fax for you.

And it's a letter from the ship, from the free winds in the Caribbean, reminding me of my bill. It's the bill. And they've sent it to the ship, from the free winds in the Caribbean, reminding me of my bill. It's the bill. And they've sent it to the door. And I'm gone. I've escaped. A bill? That's exactly right. A bill.

And then I'm met there, and then I'm like, I'm fucked, because I can't understand any of this shit. And I'm gonna fail everything. This one professor there, he sees me, the front of the class, furiously writing notes down all the time. So he pulls me aside one day and he's like, Jamie, if you had a professor to sponsor you and you were on, you could apply to be on academic probation and if your first year you get a certain GPA,

you could actually stay here and graduate. And I literally said to him, I don't know anybody that would do that for me, so thank you for the time, but no one's gonna sponsor me. And then he said, I'm offering. I'm offering. And then, you know, a year, it never stopped being harrowing. I'm home for the summer with my grandmother. They write me a letter and said, you're in. I went back to London and I a couple of years later. Boom. From the London School of Economics, after being an adult illiterate.

I think that's pretty cool. That's more than pretty cool. It's incredible. Completely incredible. But what about those family and friends that he had to leave back in Scientology? And most importantly, what about his mother? After college, I went back to LA to try to have a relationship with her.

I wanted my family. I thought I'd get back from college. After this incredible accomplishment, she would give me a hug and apologize. And she made very clear to me that she hadn't done anything wrong. And that was the beginning of the final end of our relationship. Because I had to come to a point where this is what she thinks of me. This is what she thinks I'm worth. And if I agree with that, if I go along with that, I'm agreeing to that worth.

And I said the only way I'm going to be able to have my worth and establish my own worth is if I estranged myself from this person because this is not healthy for me. But while in LA, he was staying at this house in Hancock Park. See, at this point, he was still halfway in Scientology, but not fully, just enough to save face and not be labeled a suppressive so that he could still see his loved ones. But yes, mentally, he was out.

So he's staying at a Scientology's house in Hancock Park. Now, his mother, on the other hand, due to her medical needs, had quietly vanished from the church. But she was still very much in it mentally. That's why she refused to acknowledge his upbringing and the abuse. But she hadn't gone through the formal routing out process. And because of that, she was essentially in hiding. But somehow the Office of Special Affairs, the OSA, found Jamie when he was in town

believing he would know of his mother's whereabouts. I roll up to this house and there's 15 people in naval uniforms waiting for me and security from the big blue base. And they say, take us to your mother right now. I mean, they're commanding me because they know I've grown up in this thing. And I'm like, nah, I'll pass. I mean, I didn't feel good. I was nervous. I was scared. And they're like, can we come inside?

I was like, absolutely not. This isn't my house. So I'm like having this altercation with like 15 people. And I was scared because they didn't like doing this to me my whole life. And then I run away. OK, so I literally just start running down to this park. And all of a sudden I turn around, I'm sitting on the swings and there's a lone security guard, this guy named... Should I say his name? I don't know if I want to say his name. I think he's still in. Anyway, he basically says, like, Jamie, you really need to bring us to your mother. Like, you're going to be declared a suppressive person.

You've just gone through these interrogations in New York, you know, five years ago, to not have this happen. And now you're about to let this happen. Why would you do that? This is not going to end well for you. You know what I mean? Threatening me. And I go, no, no, that's not going to happen. It doesn't really matter what you guys do to me. And I was scared because they didn't like doing this to me my whole life. And I met with two emissaries of people that worked very closely with David Miscavige and the leader, current leader. And that meeting didn't go very well, but it was one and a half, two full days at the

Hotel Monaco in downtown Portland. And I ended up leaving in a rage because I felt like they were just confirming everything that I'd read. And I said, I want nothing more to do with this stuff. What do I need to do so that you guys leave me alone? And Hans-Uli said, don't go to the media. And I said, fine. And at that point, I don't think I had any clue what had been done to me. Hubbard believed that two and a half percent of society was evil and that 20% of

society were untrustworthy or dangerous because they were being affected by this two and a half percent with Hubbard. There's always a thing, you're up stat, which means you're doing really well, or you're down stat. You know, you're up tone, which means you have a high emotional vibration or you're down code. You know, like everything's a judgment. Everything's a label. It's a label that is such a dangerous doctrine to being taught to believe that these evil people exist. And I remember thinking this is seven years ago, thinking, no, those are real. That's real. I mean, there these evil people exist. And I remember thinking, this is seven years ago, thinking, no, those are real.

That's real, I mean, there are evil people, that's real. And in that moment, I go, oh my God, it's a construct. In that moment, I realized it was an invented construct. As that was coming into my consciousness, the room started moving. I had to sit down. I had to have a moment there where I went, okay, you need to never think that you see all of this.

And there's a lot of research that's been done that shows if you want to master your life, you have to master your story. But if you ever tell your story, you're attacking and you're stunning responsibility. So they kind of booby trap you to be a mental patient for the rest of your life because you have to be in denial about what happened to you even though it's as real as a fucking table. Okay, let's talk about summer sunshine, barbecues and sweating through your clothes by 10am. It's so cute, it's cute, it's cute. Unless your underwear isn't. Which is why I love MeUndies. Their micro modell fabric, don't worry, I had to Google it too, is basically magic.

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This message is sponsored by Greenlight. Okay, summers here, which means freedom for the kids and and panic for the parents, trying to keep them busy and teach them something useful. Like how not to blow every dollar they've ever earned on ice cream and slime. Exactly, and that's why I started using Greenlight with my six-year-old. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families that helps kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely. My son has a debit card.

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You remember Jamie's mother. He hadn't seen her in quite a while, but there was one more time when she made an effort to speak to him. And so my mother, she came up to me at my uncle's funeral, confronted me in a funeral with a bunch of people around that I would not say anything. And I just started yelling, you've abandoned, I was almost like it was before There Will Be Blood came out,

but it was like that, it was like, you've abandoned your child, you abandoned, you know, it was like that. You know, I just started saying, you abandoned your children, you abandoned your children. And she kept trying to talk, and I kept saying, you abandon your children, you abandon your children. And she kept trying to talk. And I kept saying, you abandon your children. Then people started to look over.

And she realized I was getting louder and louder because I was I just kept repeating it. And then she walked away. And that was the last time she ever made an attempt. And you know, where I came to rest on it was I don't know her. After that moment, something in Jamie solidified. The weight of their history gave way to a deeper realization about family, identity, and the danger of holding on too tightly to those who have let you go.

Biology will kill you faster than a bullet. Blood is powerful. Genetic lines are powerful. And it's so ironic because Hubbard in his so-called doctrine of Scientology denied the genetic line and said it was all spiritual. But the genetic line is powerful. And a lot of us keep highly toxic people in our lives because its blood is thicker than water. And they keep these toxic people close based on these genetics. That can destroy you. Because I really believe that this woman never cared about me.

Okay? Like, I never knew her. And I told nine-year-old Jamie, if you ever want to do anything, you need to get anybody that thinks you're disposable a throwaway a used piece of toilet paper away from you so that you can in a solar way see what you're capable of and so I think I want to try to do something extraordinary only because I needed to find meaning I wasn't trying to feed my ego as much as maybe I was numb I I entered my adulthood with nothing to lose. And when you have nothing to lose, you'll take chances. You say, I'm going to go my own way. I'm

not going to follow society. I'm going to do what my heart tells me to do because the first half of my life was not my own. I was a slave. So I decided to live the second half of my life on my own terms. The way I experienced the world is I barely survived. So fuck it. I'm going to do what I want. I'm going to take all these ugly things and turn them into a quest. And he has done just that. I have written award winning books that you can get at your local bookstore.

The Invisible Machine was a runner-up for the Pencraft Award, and I won, we won the National Independent Exilus Award, and I wrote a book called The Iconist. I have made art and design and brand for the biggest brands in the world. I also spent six months doing a special economic institute at Georgetown where I met President Clinton. So, yeah, meeting President Clinton after everything I'd been through was pretty bizarre. My life is crazy because I never aspired to do all those things. All I ever wanted to do was not be illiterate. because I never aspired to do all those things.

All I ever wanted to do was not be illiterate. I think Child X is a very important book, not just about the lost children of Scientology, the most important story of Scientology should have ever been told for the first time. Again, Jamie's book Child X comes out next month, and the link to preorder it is in our show notes. And of course, lawyerology is not going to just let him go away now, are they? There's a policy called Fair Game. But basically, the minute I did my first thing with those kids a year and a half ago, they

wrote a program called Destroy Jamie Mustard's Life. Their Office of Special Affairs, their secret police, is probably the only religion in the world with a very, very well-staffed, trained secret police, like the KGB. And they will write a program, this is literal, I'm not being figurative here. They will write a program called Destroy Jamie Mustard's Life.

And it will be programmed out in steps. Hire a lawyer to hire a PI to hire a PI to contact all of Jamie's business associates and tell them he's being investigated for serious crimes. They will go to my neighbors. I had to go to all my neighbors and say, hey this happened to me. I wrote a book and someone could knock on your door and then they'll say, yeah we're investigating Jamie for being a pedophile. You know, he hasn't been indicted but we just wanted you to know. So the whole thing is to get your business relationships to cut you off, so to cut off your money, and get everyone to make

you a social outcast and a social anathema so that out of fear you will stop. They just want you to stop. That's one thing how the book changed me. I've been living in fear of Scientology in the Office of Special Affairs my whole life. Somehow when I finished this story five months ago, I put the shame back on them where it belongs, them and my mother. And I said for the first time in my life, rather than being afraid, I went, fuck those guys. And I've been in that space of fuck them.

And again, you know, I've done all this work on myself the past seven years and all this biological remediation of trauma, I wrote a book on it in my quest for healing, fixing. But I don't think I'm ever going to heal from it. Like an open wound that's never going to close. That's what I would describe how it feels. But that being said, I've gotten pretty far. And I don't know how I'm still standing, but I am. I mean, if we want to master our lives, we have to face our story. And I'm doing it in

middle age, but I'm doing it. If you want to support me, read that book, read it and tell others about what we went through. Don't let that story disappear. And I did this to speak for my friends that are no longer around to speak for themselves and speak for the ones that didn't make it and the ones that are around but are too broken. I don't want the Scientology wave to go away without people understanding what happened to the children. I want the world to know what happened to us. A lot of what I've done, I've done for my nine-year-old self.

Like, I look back at him, he's who I see when I have a barrier. When I have those moments, you know, I look back at that kid who didn't have a chance. And I kind of just give him a wink. From forced labor and illiteracy to the London School of Economics and bestselling books, Jamie didn't just survive, he transformed. Now fighting for the voiceless, the children who never got a choice, the ones who didn't make it out, and those who are too broken to speak. And if you take nothing else from this story, let it be this. You are not what happened to you and your self-worth is never up for negotiation.

So fuck them. Everybody's saying let them right now. Well, we say, fuck them. Fuck them. And you driving along in your car, say it out loud with us. Ready? One, two, three. Three, fuck em.

Feels good. Again, fuck em. Fuck em. Right. Thank you, Jamie, for your incredible story and your ability to tell it so incredibly. Jamie and I had a wonderful six hours together on this one.

I wish we could put the whole thing out there, as the entire six hours I was riveted, but I guess you can just read his book instead. Child X coming out at the end of July. Thank you again, Jamie. We wish him the best of luck with the book launch and all that is to come. We will be back next week with a story of a wild cult, one that achieved its fame for a famous murder-suicide of the leader's wife and children after the leader died and it happens to take place in Utah.

What she did is she waited a couple of days and she finally decided that she was going to, what she did was she lined up all her kids on the balcony of the 11th floor of the International Dunes Hotel. They stacked up folding chairs on top of each other so they could get over the railing and one by one each of the kids climbed up there and jumped off to their death. We'll see you next time on Was I in a Cult? And until then, hug your inner nine-year-old, guys. She or he made it. Was I an occult?

His written, directed, produced, hosted, smart-assed by Liz Sci-and-Sci-and-Sci-entology. Iacuzzi. My last name is not Scientology. And Tyler, pain in myology, me some. Sound edit by Rob, soundatology. We usually come up with these in advance, but. And our wonderful editor assistant, Greta Stromquallogy. Stromquist. Don't forget everyone, July 10th, Dynasty Typewriter live show, Liz and Tyler on stage making asses of themselves

in front of a festival crowd. Let me tell you, Tyler's white men underbite is a sight to behold. It really is, it's a good thing I've got a callus. I've callus the bottom lip so it doesn't bleed anymore. Uh. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh. Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm. If I wasn't sitting, I would clap and spin. Fuck it, I'm gonna do it anyways. And spin. Mm, yeah. Now go finish your movie. Tyler's exhausted, guys.

Let's all just give him a round of applause for being here today. I am exhausted. For those who don't know. He did throw up right before we started recording. I did, I literally threw up before I got here. I am in the throes of finishing a very kick-ass movie about the Sunset Marquis, and it premieres on Wednesday. And I'll be honest, it's not quite done. I have had late nights and stress and anxiety and fear because 600 people will

be at a screening including Liz and including Rob and including many important and fantastic people. And then all those people will be at our show later. Oh yeah, they'll just slide on over. But yes, I literally this afternoon before we recorded I just threw up from tension and anxiety. So You're all lucky that I'm here Virtual hug and a virtual massage Thank you, Tyler for reals. You're welcome Thank you for doing all the work or most of the work and much of the work.

Behind Every Great Man is a woman who did stuff and I took the idea from. Behind Every Great Idea is a man who stole it from a woman. All right, everyone, thank you for listening. See you next week. Take out your knife Purify me Hi, I'm Jessi Prey. And I'm Andi Cassette.

Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long-form, narrative-driven, and deeply researched, perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore, the so-called Black Widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, where family ties mask a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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