Was I In A Cult? - The Order: “Feel Like a Number” [Re-Release]

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

When you're numbered among the Lord's anointed, you're supposed to feel special, but for Jeremy Tucker, he was just another mindless cog in the machine of the Kingdom of God. It didn't matter though, he would work hard to do his part, until that hard work nearly cost him his life... FOLLOW US For more culty content - follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacultSUPPORT THE SHOWRate, review, share. Join us on Patreon for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and behind-the-scenes conversations.HAVE A CULTY STORY?Email us → [e-mail] guest producer Lindsay Hansen Park.  https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/https://sunstone.org/sunstone-history-podcast/https://www.tiktok.com/@lindsayhansenpark?lang=enSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey Ontario, come on down to BetMGM Casino and check out our newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show. Only at BetMGM. Access to the Price is right fortune pick is only available at BetMGM Casino. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you,

please contact Connix Ontario at 1866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, podcast one, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. Welcome to Wasanacult. I'm Liz Ayakousy. And I'm Tyler Reesum. This week, we're bringing you one from the vault. We're opening up the dusty doors creek. This one is only available on vinyl. This one is an oldie but a goodie. It is. If you're an OG listener, you may remember this from our, I think this is our first season.

It was, yeah. This is a cult called The Order, also known as the Kingston clan. I don't know, Tyler, they may be one of the most powerful polygamous cults in America. I would say yes. Checking all the boxes, they've got child labor, incest, arranged marriages. A coal mine, right? What cult doesn't come with a healthy coal mine. And a health drink that's supposed to protect you from nuclear war, I believe.

Yeah, start an MLM with that yummy product. This story was co-produced by Lindsay Hansen Park, and it tells the story of Jeremy Tucker. He was born into the order, and he was put to work as a little kid by 17 years old. He was running heavy machinery in an underground coal mine, Because, well, why else would a child be working in a coal mine other than God wanted him to? He was a minor working as a minor. Very nice. Just one vowel different. He was a minor working as a minor.

And it almost killed him. Now, if you haven't heard this one, buckle up. It's pretty good. It's got a great ending. It's got a little action and adventure. It's got some sound effects. if you have heard it, why it's still good. I might just re-listen to it myself,

because honestly, I would probably gasp at all the parts that I am supposed to know but forgot because, guys, this came out in November of 2021. What? That's a whole different time. That feels like in a galaxy long, long ago. But the reason we are replaying it this week is because we are in the 3rd, thick of producing and editing, some truly incredible new episodes coming straight to your earhole. Why are you talking about their earhole?

I just can't stop thinking about their ear holes. Leave their earholes alone, including one we are so excited about. We cannot shut up about it. So we're not going to shut up about it. No, we're not. We're still going to talk about it. Try us. Try to shut me up about it.

They actually could shut you up right now. I can't. We're going to keep going about it. right now. David Archiletta. The David Artiletta, American Idol, season seven. He grew up Mormon, just like me. And he came on our show, and he just spilled his heart out to Tyler. And being Mormon, like, you're not supposed to be gay. And you start getting feelings. And it's okay. It's normal if you have a crush on a girl and you're a guy. But what happens when you have a crush on a guy, on a boy? And you're a boy. And it's like, you can't talk to someone about it. Because it's like,

There's something wrong with me. I must be bad. Did I slip and Satan's got a hold of my heart? That's how you look at it. He's one of those people who just go, wow, what a beautiful soul. Yeah, it's great. And he grew up Mormon, like me, but also like me, he's a hell of a singer. He's almost as good as I.

I think what you meant to say, but also like you, he's just as obsessed with music, except he can sing. He can't sing, and he does sing very well. for us. He was singing for Liz. He blew me away. Yeah. That was a moment. I know. It was nice. It made you cry. He made me cry. He made you cry. No, I was just processing. You were just weeping. He was weeping, you guys. And it connects to today's episode more than you'd think, because they both started with a little creepy old man. And Joseph Schmidt. I'm a product of that creepy old man. Never really got old, though. He was killed before he got old. He was creepy, though. That episode is next week, but for now, Jeremy Tucker and the order way back from 2021.

Enjoy. Once you get to the end of a section of coal, you are left with a bunch of square pillars that are holding the mountain. up. Now you start taking those pillars out. From the back to the front, so as you retreat, the mountain will cave in where you've removed those pillars. And this causes the mountain to bounce and to bang. It's just so jarring. And I knew, deep down in my bones, I knew that one day one of these walls was going to blow out on me. Welcome to was I in a cult. I'm Liz Ayakousy.

And I, of course, am Tyler Meesam, the Robin to your Batman, the Sunny to your share, the Joe Polnichek, to your Blair Warner. The Jesse to my Walter. The Pippin to my Jordan. The hound to my Aria. All right, all right. Let's move on to today's story. I'm actually incredibly excited about this particular one. Why is that? Well, it's a story that's close to my home and my heart. I used to live in Utah. I was a Mormon for a while. And I spent years of my life making a documentary about Mormon fundamentalist teenagers. Tempting, but no, Tyler, I will not eat that carrot. You just dangle.

Bight. Not going to plug your film, Mr. Mason. Fine. Everyone will have to Google it like the regular heathens do in the world. Fine. This particular story comes from guest producer Lindsay Hansen Park. Lindsay creates a popular podcast titled Year of Polygamy, in which she tells the stories of Mormon, polygamous, and fundamentally.

us. Welcome to the show, Lindsay. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here on another podcast talking about Colts. Okay, Lindsay, now you have collected hundreds of stories over the years, but when we reached out to you to do a show for us, you instantly chose this one. Why? This story actually is more personal for me because it involves one of my good friends, but it's not just that. The story is crazy. It's got all these different components that make at like something out of a Charles Dickens' 19th century novel. But you know what? I'm not going to get ahead of myself. Just listen and see what you think. Let's give it a listen. I grew up in Huntington Canyon, Utah, out in the middle of nowhere, really small town. The canyon is pretty narrow and

the mountains are steep. We moved into a house right in the middle of the canyon. It was three trailers pieced together in the most awkward way. It was so rickety that when the wind blew down the canyon, it would blow through the house. My mom would have candles lit in the house and the wind would blow them out. This is Jeremy Tucker, a hardworking crew boss at a carbon fiber manufacturing plant in Salt Lake City. When he's not at work, he's playing darts in a league with his friends or rock hounding for gems and stones. A seemingly normal existence. However, growing up, his life was anything but.

So my mom and dad are raising a big family on almost nothing. And this trailer was a reflection of that. My mom is a really strong person. She raised 10 kids. I'm the oldest, so the family looks to me for help and advice. Religion was everything in my family for the family. first 22 years of my life, I grew up in a religion where it was imperative to have as many kids as possible. I was born into a break-off sect of Mormonism. We called ourselves the order.

Mormonism is best known for Mitt Romney, Magic Underwear, and Broadway musicals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints boast millions of members worldwide. But what is lesser known is that there are over 400 different breakoff sex, fundamentalist strains, and expressions of Mormonism. Kind of like cover bands, I guess. 400, Lindsay? Yes, and Jeremy grew up in one of them, known as the Kingston Group. The group lives communally with a practice known as the United Order and is composed officially of about a thousand members.

But the number is probably a lot higher, as most of these groups like to keep their member count hush-hush. The order is everything. That's our identity. we believe that we are the ones that are literally keeping the world from being destroyed. Everyone in the order turns their earnings into the church to serve the greater good. Sort of like religious communism. Exactly. And in the order, God has a system of organization that is managed through male leaders.

Of course. These men see themselves as ruling God's kingdom on earth like a tightly run accounting firm. Everything has to be carefully documented and accounted for, and it's all supposed to be done in preparation for Jesus' second coming. Every day is consumed by the religion. Family prayers, meditation three times a day, Sunday meetings, Friday night, young people's meetings, stewardship training classes, numbered men's meetings. Church starts at 10 o'clock every Sunday morning. My mom wakes up around 7 o'clock to start getting all the kids out of bed, fed, dressed, and bathed. I just dread her coming into my room because church is so boring. And I wish that just this one Sunday we don't have to go to church.

But you always do. And church was just a mile down the canyon. You have around 50 people that are packed into this little Kwanza hut, elbow to elbow, And it's cold, especially if it's in the winter, it's really cold. We start off with the hymn and then have opening prayer, and it's followed by another hymn. And then we sit down and listen to last week's talk from The Prophet on cassette tape. I'll ask Brother Daniel to speak to us next. I appreciate very much the things that have been brought out this morning.

The way some of our young people feel, they feel like that they can go on the outside, and do things, or they can do things and no one will know, but you can't do that. You come back with that smell that you can't fool anyone. I shouldn't say that. Sometimes you can fool certain people, but there are people you cannot fool. This is Daniel Kingston. His brother Paul Kingston is the head prophet for the order, which means he has a lot of power and influence in the group. And he is notorious among ex-order members for being violent and abusive. Oh, great. Sign me up. In 1998, he made national headlines for beating his 16-year-old daughter

28 times before she passed out when she was attempting to flee her marriage. Well, I guess when you're a 16-year-old wife, you should obey the pedophile that you're betrothed to, right? It gets worse, you guys. She was married to Daniel's brother, her uncle. Can you pass me my vomit bag? One step out of you, Liz. I was always confused by the order as a kid, and anytime I had questions, I could go to my parents,

and I would ask these questions, and even though their answers didn't make sense, the thing that I took away is that they were certain. Their faith was so strong. Well, the brainwashing was so strong, really. My parents were really close. Every weekend, we were doing something as a family, camping trips and picnics,

and going, sledding. And then all of a sudden things changed. I didn't see a lot of my dad. I remember asking my mom, where did dad go? It's the weekend. He should be home and my mom would tell me he's at Aunt Becky's. Okay, who's Aunt Becky? Jeremy and his family would attend church each week in the small trailer, but at least once a month they would show their commitment to their faith and drive to the old standard restaurant supply building in Salt Lake City. A restaurant supply building for church? Yeah, we'll get into that in a little bit. It was a long, grueling drive that took several hours. You know, as often as we could, we would go to Salt Lake. We had a tiny little church building

that a thousand people would cram into, and you had to sit through two hours of listening to sermons. And here's an example of the kind of dry sermons that these folks would have to every single week. The thing that we need to do is we need to, and I'm not saying that, in fact, the thing that we do need to do as parents and as managers, is we need to take a closer look at what the people were associated with are doing with their free time and help them, help them line things up and include things where they can put their energy into. and sisters and my mom would sit wherever there was an available seat. I remember my dad sitting

on the front row with... Let me guess. Aunt Becky. With Aunt Becky. And I remember asking my mom, why aren't we sitting with dad? And she wouldn't really say anything. I would walk up to the front row and ask to sit by him, and sometimes I was able to sit with them. And from the front row, You could see all the speakers up on the stage. The men would sit and rose numbered by their importance. I looked at them as being directly connected to God. We have this privilege on the farm, especially in the summer, where we have our hay crop that needs to be brought in.

Most of the lessons in church meetings were more about building up the kingdom of God through hard work and saving money. The order encouraged its leaders to make as much money as possible. And as a result, order leaders account for hundreds of businesses. They own everything from small pawn shops and laundromats to global energy companies and arms dealers

that allegedly trade with foreign mafias. Oh, sounds perfectly legitimate. I thought Jeremy's family lived in a broken down trailer. Well, though hard work was valued in the order, extravagance, not so much. Most members are dirt poor. So the leaders live like paupers too then? No.

Male leaders in the Kingston family live in gated mansions. Again, it sounds perfectly legitimate. I mean, the leaders are the ones, after all, doing all the commanding, and all that bossing does get tiring. And when you're that tired, you need a mansion to rest in, obviously. Obviously. But you didn't hear that for me. These men like to keep up an appearance of poverty. They don't want people to know how they really live.

Because then it could arouse suspicion that they're completely full of shit. And using members for slave labor, essentially. Another common theme amongst cults, working for free or pennies, in honor of a greater purpose to serve the divine. You know, it is funny how that greater purpose always seems to benefit the ones at the top. And the order does a good job keeping up the facade. Their official headquarters address leads you to a rundown home in a dilapidated Salt Lake neighborhood. Sometimes the group meets in old warehouses for church service. Ah, that's the restaurant supply building.

The business and the religion are one and the same. That's what the order uses to build the kingdom of God is a flow of income. One thing that we heard over and over is how important it is to turn your money in. In our Sunday school lessons as kids, they would tell us, even if you find a penny on the sidewalk, you need to take that to the office and consecrate them. that penny. Consecration is the act of donating time, talent, money, and property to build up the church. The Kingston's believed that all money earned should be turned over to the church. I mean, at least they do have a fancy word for it. Consecration. I remember one time as a really young kid walking out a Safeway with my mom after we had finished shopping and seeing a penny

out in the parking lot. And I was really excited that I could actually do what I had been hearing about in church. I picked up the penny and told my mom I wanted to turn it in and she took me to the mine office. Just a dusty old trailer and gave that to them and they wrote me a service slip for a credit of one cent to my statement. And I felt really good. Even as a little boy, I felt like I was actually contributing to the order. So that's really true, Lindsay. Everyone would work for free? Well, again, Liz, the money was being put toward a greater purpose to build the kingdom of God. Which, excuse my ignorance, is what exactly? Well, for the Kingston's, the kingdom of God equates to preparing for the second coming of Jesus. They need money and weapons when God

destroys the world and the wicked. And the wicked is who again? People like Tyler and me? Just you, Liz. Just me, right? Obviously. Let me get this straight, though. When God destroys the world and all that's left is this divine order. You're telling me, United States currency is somehow going to come in handy? Apparently, yes. The righteous will be very well funded in a war against the wicked. So when you get money, it's just money. When you turn it in, then it becomes units and it goes onto your statement. They have accounts or an account that all the member's money goes to. units here on earth are equivalent to $1.1 unit equals $1. But when you die, you get to use that in your kingdom in heaven. But if you spent all that money, then you wouldn't have any units to take to

heaven with you. And also, if members have to turn in all their income to the order, how then do they afford food, toilet paper? Spare keys, light bulbs, extra iPhone chargers. They've already thought about that. The group has set up their own banking system. If we needed groceries or anything, you would go to the office and you would tell them, you know, I need $100 to buy groceries. And they would say stuff like, well, do you really need $100? Can you get by with $50? And you would leave with $50. Then that money would be gone for good instead of staying units. So spending money always gave me anxiety. I felt like I was taking money from God.

Can't God be just like America and Prince some more? Going to public school, I remember watching the kids put quarters in the vending machine like it was no big deal and a soda comes out. And I was envious of that. One day as I was walking past a soda machine, I saw two quarters in the money return. Nobody was there. So I took those quarters, put them in the vending machine, didn't know what kind of soda to buy. I didn't know what any of them tasted like, so I pushed a button and a Mr. Pib rolled out of the machine.

I just spent these unconsecrated quarters, and I knew God knew, and I'm sitting in math class looking at this soda, and it looks delicious, it's cold. There's condensation drops on it, and I want to open it so bad, and I'm trying to make my sin feel less, so I read the ingredients, hoping that one of the ingredients is not sugar. In the group, it was a sin to consume sugar. But not only is there sugar in Mr. Pib, there was caffeine. Also a sin. A wave of guilt and anxiety just poured over me. But the deed was already done. So I opened it and drank that soda.

And it was as good as it looked. These guys have some ass-backwards sins, if you ask me. Sugar? No way. For sex with a minor? Live your truth, Peter. You do you, man. Hallelujah. In the order, diet like money is a religious virtue. In fact, they actually have this special health drink that's supposed to provide them magical protection against harm called green drink.

So is half of Los Angeles in the order? In the 80s, the order was absolutely certain that there was going to be nuclear war. So the leader had a revelation from God. to make this thing called green drink that would protect us from nuclear war. It would protect us from radioactive fallout. This was going to allow us in the end of days to be able to just survive. Everybody else in the world was going to be dead. Okay, but death might actually be a tradeoff.

I've had green drink and I can say it's terrible. It's like drinking dirty lake water. Well, in that case, can I get mine iced, 16 ounce? This stuff is so strong and so foul. The main ingredient is comfrey, a big, broadleaf green fibrous plant. The second ingredient is garlic. The more righteous you are, the more garlic you have in your green drink. And you can tell who drinks their green drink, by the way, they smell.

Packing a thousand of these people into a tiny little church. building is just awful. We're supposed to have an eight-ounce glass every day, and that's part of the daily routine. Tyler, Valentine's Day. What's your plan? You said that like you're interrogating me, Liz, like I don't have one. Because you don't have one. I know you don't have one. I do have one, Liz. It's a good one. 1-800flowers.com because I need someone who actually knows what they're doing. Especially on February 13th at 11.45 p.m. 1-800 flowers is like the OG of flower delivery guys they literally have been doing this for 50 years 50 which means at some point the number wasn't a website it was just an actual number right they actually do have a number it feels weird it's 1 800 flowers in fact I've never called it because I just use the website

but I'm about to 1 800 f L O W E R S hey there I'm the 1 800 flowers very Mutual agent. Do you want to track and order, review delivery info, or ask about something? Great. It's a real number. Not a real person, but a real number. It's still that much.

I'm glad. Yeah. You can order flowers. I could have ordered flowers right now, but I didn't because I already did it, Liz. I already did it. The flowers at 100 flowers are great. They're not overpriced. Their roses come from high altitude farms.

And if you don't know anything about that, that means bigger blooms, richer colors that actually last. And right now, right now. they have a deal where you can buy a dozen roses and they double it for free. Which means you get to look like you spend twice as much as you did, Tyler. That's romance. It's also good budgeting, which frankly, any good Valentine will appreciate. They also have a seven-day freshness guarantee, same-day delivery nationwide. So if you're a last-minute disaster like my co-host, they've got you. Don't wait until it's too late.

To get the double blooms offer by one dozen, get one dozen roses free. Go to one-800 flowers, or call 1800 flowers. Go to 1800flowers.com slash cult right now. That's 1800flowers.com slash cult. Double your roses for free. Yeah, don't forget the slash cult. If you just go to the normal website, you won't see the offer. So slash cult.

All right, real talk for a minute, guys. We love doing and making this podcast. And we are thrilled that it is found a worldwide audience. Shout out to Norway. Shout out to China. Also, America. We love you, too. Right, we love you too.

We do. You know, but this show is not a simple chore. No. This is a weeks-long process for each and every episode. We love the process, but it does take time. Right. Now, this isn't an NPR Pledge Drive. We're not here to ask you for your money.

No, we're not cult leaders. Or other podcasts. But we are 100% ad-driven. And in order to keep this trainer rolling and to consistently give you quality stories, we need only one thing from you. A stool sample. Reviews, you guys. We need reviews.

Yeah, that's it. Simply get on Apple Podcasts and give us a smart and glowing five-star review. It's not hard. It takes about 30 seconds. I've done about 20 of them in five minutes. I'm watching her do. I'm the one that said Tyler sounds like a, he should be on radio announcement. And I'm the one who said Liz should be working at Starbucks.

Taking your order on a different kind of microphone. Fentee latte. What would you love? Hi, hi, welcome. Do you have that iced or shut up your ass? Yes, can I get that to go? I got to go record my hit podcast. Oh, you're so cool. Anyways. What were we talking about? Reviews, right? Reviews. We need reviews, guys. And when you do that, when you give us a good review. Everyone wins. You get the show you love, and we get to keep making it.

So please rate and review us. You guys, we are real people too. We're not just disparate voices talking into a microphone. No. We have real feelings. We need love and support and five-star ratings. Just like everyone on the street. And now, back to the show. Lindsay?

Tell us about the order. Another part of the routine is plain old hard work. When you are part of the order, you work for the order, and that's exactly what Jeremy did. So when did Jeremy start working for the order? Like, out of college, 21, 22? Actually, it was a little bit younger than that. As little kids, you are put into the work for it. right away. My first job, I was about six or seven at this time. And every day after school,

one of things we had to do before we could go play is cut 10 or 15 pounds worth of grease rags that the miners would use. I think we were paid 19 cents a pound. And every month, that 19 cents a pound was credited to our statements. As Jeremy got older, he was given jobs with more responsibility. are like, what, 10 and a half? So I was 11 years old, and my uncle was 13 years. And we were in charge of all the production for spiffy ice. And we had to produce enough ice to service all the gas stations around the valley. We had to make sure the equipment ran.

We bagged the ice, palletize the ice. We loaded it onto trucks with forklifts and pallet jacks. So I have Jeremy to thank for those late-night ice runs in college. In the order, numbers are everything, whether it's how much money you've turned in or becoming a numbered man. Being a numbered man is the most important goal for any man in the order. To earn a number, we have to be good workers, we have to save money, we have to be obedient. Okay, what on earth is a numbered man? So if men work hard, save money and are really obedient, then they get assigned a number.

then you will use that number to keep track of your transactions. So with my dad being numbered 80, my mom's number would be 810, and my number was 8101. Another number that is important in the order is the age of 8. And to us, that is the age of accountability. When I turned 8, my mom and dad asked me to come into their bedroom. I sat down on the bed with them, and they told me, you're eight years old now, and that means that there are some things that we can tell you, but these things are very sacred, and you can't talk about them to anybody. These are just for our family. They explained that for a person to get into the highest degree of heaven, that celestial marriage, polygamy, is absolutely necessary. and they told me that Aunt Becky was dad's spiritual wife.

It made everything make more sense, and after that I knew she was our family. When I would see Aunt Becky sitting on the front row with my dad, I didn't feel left out anymore. And by not rushing up to sit with him, I was helping keep this secret. All right, Lindsay, what is up with Mormonism and polygamy? So some Mormon sects believe that for a person to get into the highest degree of heaven, celestial marriage, also known as polygamy, is absolutely necessary. Even today, Mormon doctrine still holds that men who live plural marriage are considered more powerful in the religion. Mainstream Mormons don't really know how to deal with this one, so they mostly just ignore it. But for Jeremy, his dad was automatically more holy because he married a second wife.

In the order, the more wives you have, the more righteous you are. The leadership, they just naturally accumulated more wives than anybody else. It was kind of a confirmation that God saw them as a more righteous order member by blessing them with another wife. The leader of the order, Paul, Kingston, he's got 27 wives. You know, it's nice to hear that women were treated as three three-dimensional, respected equals with desires and needs of their own, not just pieces of property to donate to brainwashed egomaniacs. Yes, finally, women that know their place. Are you taking notes, Liz?

Yes, sir. Soon the order started a men's quorum for unmarried boys over the age of 18. They would meet each Sunday, and one day... The lesson plan was to become worthy for marriage. This particular lesson was taught by Daniel. You remember Daniel, the guy who beat the show. shit out of its daughter for wanting to divorce his brother. Oh yes, we remember. Daniel brought this tiny little girl. She couldn't have been more than five or six years old. And she's in her cute

little Sunday school dress. And he starts off by telling us she's going to marry one of you guys someday. Oh God, here we go. In polygamy, there's, there's a problem with numbers. You have 50% man and 50% women, and if the leader can have 27 wives, there's going to be that many men who can't find a wife. So he wanted to drive home the point to us that we need to look at these little girls in the order as future wives because that's the reality. The order unfortunately is notorious for underage marriages and incest. The data suggests, and there was a Salt Lake Tribune article published in 2018, stating that girls as young as 13 were being given to husbands in states

where the age of consent would allow for it. So the order would use these laws to marry many underage girls to family members. In the order, bloodlines are extremely important, and the Kingston's believe that they're direct descendants of Jesus Christ, but the goal of the order is to have, every new baby, have the Kingston bloodline in them. And with the limited number of people, intermarrying is unavoidable, and cousins getting married is not really anything to bat an eye over.

Pretty much everybody in the order is cousins. There are aunts marrying nephews and uncles marrying nieces, and has actually become sacred and seen as a sign of, righteousness. But due to close intermarrying, there's a lot of birth defects. It takes a lot of money to go see a doctor. So most births are home births in the order. And there are a lot of stories of stillbirths and babies dying shortly after birth because of severe deformations. and when this happens, there is no record. The babies are brought to the Holy Spot and buried.

The Holy Spot is in northern Utah in a town called Bountiful. It's sort of like Mecca for the Order. No matter where we are in the world, when we pray, we face the Holy Spot. And one of the most sacred tenants in the order is the thing called the Law of One Above Another. The law of one above another, in a nutshell, tells you to obey the commands of the one over you as if they were the highest God in heaven. It's not up to you to question. Ah, yes, the sacred science, in which all doctrine is ultimate truth without question. Jeremy was still a teen when he was promoted and was able to work directly for one of the leaders, Daniel.

So Daniel had decided that ostrich meat was going to become more popular than beef. So he bought a flock of ostriches. Hmm, ostrich burgers washed down with delicious green drink. One day working on this ostrich pin, about 6.30 p.m., a big thunderstorm rolled in, and Daniel called us off the projects. And about 8 o'clock, the thunderstorm finally left, but so had Daniel. So we thought, well, he's gone. I'm sure he doesn't expect us to work anymore. So they all took a drive to a quiet hayfield. We looked up the road and we could see a big dust cloud from a pickup just barreling down the dirt road.

We knew it was Daniel and the speed he was driving. We knew he was mad. He came to a skidding halt in front of us and he walked up to the driver's seat just yelling. Then he reached into the window and started slapping the driver in the face over and over and hard enough that his head. was bouncing off the steering low with each blow. I got to see Daniel's dark side more and more. Instead of being that soft-spoken, reverent man that I thought he was, he had a short fuse. And every time it happened, I felt like I was doing something bad, and I had let down this great man.

Sounds like Jeremy was starting to witness some of the group's hypocrisy. Thankfully, yes, he was. Okay, so he's a little bit older now, and where are they sending him off to work? In a coal mine nestled in the hills of Emory County, Utah in Huntington Canyon. It's one of the businesses that made the order what it was. At 14, I started working at the mine. I was now one of these men that I had heard stories about in church for my entire life. The coal miners, they were strong, they were tough, they were brave.

And at 17 years old, I was running the continuous mines. minor in an underground mine. I was in high school and kind of scoffed at my advisor when she was trying to get me to plan for my future. I knew that I was going to be a coal miner until God destroyed the earth. The leadership saw me as valuable labor. Dreams of an education and going into a less physically demanding job is not what they had in mind for me. It goes without saying, that working in a coal mine was difficult. Before your schedule shift start, you all pile in the back of an open-bed pickup truck. You're open to the elements.

If it's snowing or raining, you have a half-hour drive from the shower house to the entryway of the mine. I remember days sitting in the back of that pickup truck, everybody huddled together driving up the steep, winding mine road, and everybody just being covered in snow. You could just see white faces, white hair, white clothes, and eyes blinking in this snow. Once you go into the entryway of the mine, it's windy and it's cold and dark.

So if you start the day off wet, it's that much more miserable. You're doing this hard work, you're putting your life at risk, you were lucky to get paid minimum wage, something like five and a quarter. at the time. And then one day, something happened that altered the direction of Jeremy's life forever.

It was May 28th, so it was springtime just when Utah is coming alive again. We were doing what is called pillar mining. Once you get to the end of a section of coal, you are left with a bunch of big square pillars that are holding the mountain up. So as you retreat, now you start taking those pillars out. From the back to the front, the mountain will cave in where you've removed those pillars. And this causes the mountain to bounce and to bang and to pop. It's just so jarring.

The best way I can describe it is being a bug inside of a big speaker, inside of a subwifor, it just shakes you to your bones. As you're digging away this final stump, you have to decide at what point you call it because if you stay in there too long, everything will be buried. The mountain will come down. So when you're pulling pillars, you're basically mining until your courage gives out. When we died and went to heaven, we were going to have to answer to God for every pound of coal that we didn't get that we could have pulled out of the mine.

And I prided myself in being able to read the mountain so well that I felt like I could go to heaven and answer for every pound of coal that I got because I was able to usually have the mountain cave within inches of the miner. I took so much pride in that. But on this spring day, like many other days before,

Jeremy was pulling out pillars with two other miners. This is the very last 10 by 10 foot pillar that's holding the mine up. And I remember looking up on the wall and seeing an overhang of coal, the size of an average car, hanging over my head. And I remember thinking, if the mountain bounces, that's going to kill me. That was the last thing I remembered. Okay, listeners, we have to talk about. about quince again. At this point, you guys were like, we got it. You guys love quince.

We do. We do. We do. We do. That's the problem. I cannot fake not being obsessed. I have another oversized sweater in my cart right now and I don't need it. And I'm going to buy it. You need it. You need it. Let's be honest. You need it. Let's be real. And my wife, she just texts me links. She just texts me a link to a skirt. She doesn't even wait for me anywhere. She just sends the link. Knows what it means. I know what it means. She know what it means. She knows what it means. Quince knows what it means. We're saying this ad isn't performed enthusiasm. We're just customers, very loyal, very annoying, repeat customers.

Yeah, we're only annoying to the people who have to listen to us, talk about it. To everyone else, like Quince, they're just fine with it. For those that don't know, Quince rocks, they work directly with factories. There's no middleman. There's no brand markup. They've got organic cotton, European linen, cashmere, all of it at prices that are half or less than half of what they should be. This stuff is quality, luxury. It holds up. It makes you feel like you're getting away with something.

It's one of the only times I don't feel like an idiot after buying something online. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com slash cult for free shipping on your order. 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash call to get free shipping. 365 day returns. That's a year for those who don't have a calendar. Quince.com

slash cult. Don't forget we sent you. You know what almost every single guest on this show says? And then I found a good therapist. That's the turning point. Yeah. Almost every time. That's the step.

Leave cult. Find therapists. Become human again. But finding a good therapist is a nightmare. Half don't take your insurance. The other half can't see you until March. Of what year? That's why we are so excited about Rula.

R-U-L-A. People are obsessed with them because you can actually find a good therapist who takes your insurance. What a concept. Miracles do happen. Rula works with over 100 insurance plans and most people end up paying around $15 a session. And they actually match you with a therapist based on what you're dealing with, not just whoever's available. They have over 15,000 therapists and psychiatrists and you can usually get an appointment as soon as tomorrow. And you don't need to have been in a cult.

to try therapy. No. It's self-care in its highest form. Preach, brother. If you've been wanting to do it, but money was the blocker, sorry, Rula just made that excuse to go bye-bye. This year, make one change.

You can actually stick with. Visit rula.com slash in a cult to get started. That's RULA.com slash in a cult, mental health care that's actually built to last. When the ribs blew out, they completely buried me. As the dust cleared, Kent and Freddie saw my hard hat sitting on top of the pile of coal,

and they could see steam coming out of the ground, so they knew where to start digging for me. When they unburied me, I was face down. They said I was digging, but, you know, if I could have actually dug, I would have been digging myself deeper. But it was my instinct to do that. I was covered in blood. I had serious head injuries, among others. They said I lost consciousness and I collapsed. They loaded me in the back of this pickup and were trying to race me to the surface.

There weren't any thoughts in my head. There was no sensation. I couldn't feel pain, but I just remember images. I remember the walls of the mind flew by. Then it would suddenly shift to me looking down over his back, looking at my face, looking at my eye sockets, jammed full of coal, blood coming out of my ears, and nose and mouth. Then, looking up into his face as he was shining a light into my eyes, telling me, you know, stay here, stay with this. Luckily, he did. The accident was bad enough

that I spent about a week in the hospital. I had a lot of visitors from the order, and they would talk about how lucky I was that I was working in an order coal mine because, you know, if I had been anywhere else, if I had been on the outside, God would have let me die. But the irony is that what they said had a reverse effect on Jeremy, because in that moment, he realized that if he had been anywhere else, God wouldn't have let him die. Because anywhere else, he wouldn't have been working in a coal mine at the age of 17. As time went on and I convalesced, I was away from church. I was away from that constant 24-hour influx of order doctrine.

So all the questions and all the spiritual confusion that had been building up, I was able to focus on it. I spent a lot of time studying the group, learning about the history, getting deeper into the theology and religion to get an understanding of why, these things that feel so wrong are actually divine and right. I just became more and more spiritually confused. And then I had a mental shift where I decided instead of trying to prove the order right, I was going to just try to find the truth. After I did this, things started to make a lot more sense. What I was being told by the order leadership, they were contradictions, they

were lies. I realized that we were being manipulated and taken advantage of and outright lied to. And I knew that I couldn't live in the order anymore. I just wanted to be out of there. So in retrospect, his near-death experience actually saved his life. But he wasn't in the clear just yet. No, of course not, because leaving a toxic, cultic environment often comes with its own set of sacrifices and difficulties. But if I just left, then I was going to lose my family. I was going to lose my mom and dad. I was going to lose my brothers and sisters.

And speaking of sisters, remember all that stuff about plural wives and incest? Oh, God. My sisters were of an age to be married off to guys who didn't treat them well as second, third, fourth, fifth wives. And that was absolutely horrifying to me. I knew that I had to do everything in my power

to help them see what I did, to help them question what they were being. being told. I started openly questioning the contradictions or the lies, but I did it in a way that made it seem like I was genuinely confused and looking for answers. I was asking questions to my grandma, to my aunts and uncles that lived there, to my parents. I was trying every day. It had got to the point where I had said everything I could say, and it had gone on for so long that I just wanted to be out of there. I need to go talk to mom and dad one more time. I laid my case out to mom and dad. I told him all my doubts. And dad just, he gave me the same order answers again.

And I remember just being so sad and frustrated and knew I was going to have to just go. And I looked down and just gritted my teeth and I was ready to make my getaway. And my mom said, Ronald, we need to tell him. And the way she said it, I knew that they didn't believe. It was like a weight just lifted off my shoulders. Apparently, his parents weren't as stalwart as Jeremy thought they were. My dad had been asking questions, too. He had been a lot further along than I realized.

They had also been considering leaving the religion. And he just said, well, what are we supposed to do? Our whole lives, we've taught you kids, that this is what God wants, and this is all we know. But they knew they had to leave, right? I mean, the entire family did. Yes, they knew that. But leaving meant losing everything we had worked for, everything we had built up to that point. Not to mention, they had essentially given the order all of their money,

over the course of their entire lives. Son of a bitch. Getting the money off your statement and into your hands is a tricky thing. When my parents finally announced they were going to leave, the order leadership told them that as soon as they were ready to load up the moving truck, they would give them their savings. So my parents boxed everything up and asked for the check, and he just told them, oh, we didn't get that.

Another week, then I'll have your check. Give me one more week, but you need to be ready to move. So the same scene played out. No check. And he did this over and over again. But sometimes in order to succeed against a manipulator, you have to beat them at their own game. My dad being one of Paul's best friends growing up,

he knows the skeletons in Paul's closet. Remember, Paul is the prophet for the order. He's the brother of Daniel, the one that... Beat his daughter for wanting to divorce their other brother, David. Yeah, we remember that guy. Yeah, it's the fucked-a version of who's on first. So Jeremy's mother went to high school with Paul. And, well, Mrs. Tucker just so happened to have some heartwarming memorabilia from that time. My mom has a photograph of her on a date with Paul. She's sitting on his lap. This is a cardinal sin in the order.

My parents took that picture and blew it up into a 8 by 12 paper. and on the backside they put 10 order standards broken by Brother Paul, and number one, going on a date to a school dance, and then number two through 10 had question marks. The implication being that every day a new sin was going to be revealed, so his parents made a bunch of copies. And gave it to my younger siblings to take onto the school bus. As the order kids would get on the bus, my siblings would have them a copy of it. of this pitcher. All the pictures made it back home to the parents. And by the end of the day, Paul had called my dad and said, I heard you've been having problems getting your money.

Let me see if I can straighten it out for you. The very next day, Paul gave my parents their money. Well played, Mr. and Mrs. Tucker. Well played. And in April of 2001, the Tucker's packed up their belongings, abandoned the dilapidated trailer, and drove out of that canyon for the very last time. The world as we knew it, it was gone. And that was really hard. But at the same time, I felt a hundred pounds lighter. I felt like it could float away. And as he left, 18-year-old Jeremy recalled a lesson plan that the order taught. A concept called N-value. Which is short for net value. It was a formula where we could figure out how much we were worth monetarily to the order. This formula would factor in our hourly wage, how much the business makes off of us, how efficient we were.

And after all these numbers were plugged in, you would come out with your ultimate end value. I always felt like a number. I always felt like a commodity in the order. but this lesson seemed to just really drive at home. For the first time in his life, Jeremy was more than just his end value. Being not just another number, not just another worker, was freeing. Now I could work where I wanted to work. I could go where I wanted to go if I wanted to buy something frivolous.

I could do it. The work part was no problem. problem for Jeremy. It's the other stuff that gets confusing. After leaving a cult, when you re-enter the real world, or in Jeremy's case, enter it for the first time, it's often the little things that are the most jarring. Right, like setting up your Wi-Fi. For example, when Jeremy opened a real bank account to hold his real money. The first time I needed to withdraw funds, I pulled up to the bank and was just overwhelmed with anxiety. The world was spinning around me. and I was sweating and I was thinking, how can I justify this?

I went into the bank and went up to the teller, gave her the withdrawal slip, and immediately started to justify why I was pulling all this money out, telling her, I really needed it, I had to have a car to get to work, and giving her all these details. And she just kind of stopped me and said, no, that's nice, but you don't need to tell me. It's been almost a decade now since Jeremy and his family left the group, but they're all doing pretty great. There is some resentment with the way I was raised, but at the same time, all the experiences of our lives are good and the bad

or what made us who we are today. One night, two years ago, Jeremy and I were out in the Mojave Desert, rock hounding. And I love going rock hounding because I'm a white girl, and you know how we love our tarot cards and crystal shit. But Jeremy is not into any of that. He worked in the heart of the earth, so he knows rocks, crystals, and minerals really well. And he finds a sort of elegance in the science of it all.

So we're out there rock-hounding one night in the middle of nowhere. And we stopped by this beautiful lake. And on this particular night, the sky was so clear. And the stars were big and bright. They were reflecting like these giant crystal balls in the water. It was stunning. At one moment, this magnificent shooting star sprays across the sky, and I get all excited. I say, Jeremy, look, it's a shooting star.

Make a wish. It means good luck. And Jeremy sort of laughs and then tells me that in the order, they were taught that a shooting star was another world being destroyed by God. If you as an order member ever stopped believing, God would destroy you too, just like that shooting star. And I'm sitting here thinking, gosh, do you? Do they really have to take something so beautiful, like a shooting star, and make the darkest meaning of it? So I turned to him and I say, well, look at you. You left.

God didn't destroy you. And of course, Jeremy smiles that smile that have come to know so well for him. Because I know in this moment, he thinks my sort of mystical hippie view seems as silly to him as God destroying other worlds. Jeremy doesn't believe in wishes like that anymore. He's definitely a bit of a skeptic now. And so we just sort of stopped talking and just stared at this beautiful expanse of stars, each of us finding our own meaning and beauty in it.

And that's what being with Jeremy is like now. He knows the meaning of stopping and enjoying the beauty of a thing without having to know the dollar and sense of it. And I'll never forget this. Jeremy pulls out this piece of band of Jasper from his bag, this rock that we had found rock hounding. So he hands me this rock. and it's flat and it's perfect for skipping across the lake.

And then he picks up a rock himself and he winds his arm back ready to skip it. And then he grins at me and he says, hey, Lindsay, make a wish. As he frees this rock from his tight grip, we watch as it sort of dances over the water in this magical whimsy until it disappears. Thank you all for listening to Was I an Occult. And a very special thank you to our guest producer, Lindsay Hansen Park. You can find Lindsay at Year of Polygamy.com or at the Sunstone Mormon History Podcast. And above all, thank you, Jeremy Tucker, for sharing your story.

And for showing us what true courage and survival looks like. And there's lots of courageous stories coming at you soon, from Was I in a Cult? However, you will have to wait a couple of weeks for the next episode because our editor joined a cult. Poor Chandler. No, he didn't join a cult, Tyler, because. Because no one joins a cult. I know. Nobody to join a cult. However, we are taking our mid-season break. And guys, yes, you will finally hear Tyler and my personal cult stories in the second half of our season.

So you have that to look forward to. We can't wait to be back with you. November 24th. With our cult expert and her remarkable story. It's an insult to the people who join cults and who get out of cults to think they were weak. You're not weak. They make you weak. They turn you into a dependent personality. And we shouldn't make fun of them or humiliate them.

That could be you. You know, that could be me. That was me. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, just about anybody can end up in a cult. Thank you for listening. And remember, when given the choice between Mr. Pibb and Green Drink, choose the soda.

Was I an occult is a production of IHeart Media and is story produced and written by me, Tyler Meissom. And more, Lisa Yucuzi. Executive producer is Maya Cole Howard. Supervising producer is Catherine Bert Canton. Audio editor Chandler Mays. Additional story producer is Ari Becile. And our superfan of this week is Vidi Valentina, or V Trident, as her Instagram goes by. Thank you, V, for spreading the word and sharing our stories with Italy.

Listen up, campers. It's time to buckle up, pitch a tent, and take a hike. This is Camp Counselor's Podcasts. With Zachariah Porter. And Jonathan Carson. Consider this podcast your new favorite variety show. Where the badges mean nothing. And the drama means everything.

Is this podcast even about camping? No, but it is camp. We cover everything. I have a theory that a chicken finger is the perfect chaser for a tequila shot. No, because at the end of the day, I was a child actor who fell victim to an audition scam. I'm going to be vulnerable for a second. Have you ever had to shop in a husky section at a department store? Then I don't want to hear it.

Honestly, I can't talk about this anymore. I'm overstimulated and I'm bloated. From weird news and our current obsessions to hot gossip and listeners submitted confessions. Nothing is off limits at this camp. New episodes of camp counselors drop every Monday and Wednesday. Listen wherever you get your podcast. Lights out campers. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows.

This is the mindset. Free. This is the mantra. free. This is the... With movies like Joe Dirt, pixels, and 51st dates. This is awesome. And TV shows like Survivor,

SpongeBob SquarePants, the fairly odd parents and ghosts. Pluto TV is always free. Hazzal. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. You're welcome.