Was I In A Cult? - The Organization: "Magic is Real"

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

As Cassie on Skins and Gilly on Game of Thrones, Hannah Murray spent years stepping into other people's pain, other people's stories, other people's worlds. But after shooting a brutal scene for a film that left her body wrecked, Hannah went looking for relief. A trainer suggested a healer. And that healer became the doorway into a world that promised magic, ancient wisdom, secret knowledge, and above all, a way to finally heal the pain Hannah had been carrying around for years.  And as these things so often go, at first it worked. Until it really, really didn't. Hannah is a dream guest. Thoughtful, funny, self-aware, and deeply honest. Her memoir, The Make-Believe: A Memoir of Magic and Madness, tells the full story, and it is as gripping as it is beautifully written. _________________________ Hannah's Memoir: The Make-Believe: A Memoir of Magic and Madness, is out June 23 in the U.S. and available now in the UK. FOLLOW US  → For more culty content — follow us on Instagram & TikTok → @wasiinacult SUPPORT THE SHOW Join our Patreon! Tyler's documentary "An Honest Liar" available now for all members! And get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and behind-the-scenes conversations. (And our forever gratitude)   HAVE A CULTY STORY? Email us → [e-mail]

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of Lipson or its affiliates. Guest accounts or personal recollections shared from their own perspectives. References to specific individuals, organizations, or groups are presented as commentary, opinion, and personal experience and should not be interpreted as definitive statement of fact. This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. I both thought, well, maybe this won't do anything. anything and it'll just be a story I can tell of like that one time I went to see an energy healer. And on the other hand, I thought maybe this is going to like heal all my shit and all my trauma and everything in one go. And the ultimate consequence of that was that I ended up in a psychiatric

wood. Welcome back to was I in a cult or welcome if you've never been before. Yeah, welcome if this is your first time with us. We'll go easy on you. I'm Tyler Meism. I'm Liz Ayakuzi. We're also joined by Rob who pipes in every once in a while. I'm back, baby. Says something odd or unique or silly. Rob is a big fan favorite.

Rob is a big fan favorite. Only for the big fans. We get emails and they say, we love you, Tyler and Liz. Oh, and Rob, you're always like the sidekick. You're like the neighbor that comes over in the sitcom and pokes his head in. I'm surprised I'm not the scrappy do of the podcast, just like a late season addition that doesn't really add much, just enrages the key fans. Right.

You're like Sam in different strokes. You're like the neighbor that we've never seen from the neck down, because that else is also how we experience you. That's you, Rob. The Steve Urkel of sorts. You have a role. So we have a great story today. We have a wild story about magic.

Real magic, the kind you're not supposed to be able to learn about from a book or from a man named Steve. Steve. We'll get to Steve. We will get to Steve. And who doesn't want to believe in magic? Our guest today, like many of us, had a very active imagination growing up. And for her, almost too active. And so when Hogwarts didn't send her that letter for wizarding school, she turned to the next best thing, acting. Yes, something much more stable than being a wizard, acting. Today, our guest is Hannah Murray. She's a writer, a former actor, and yes, for a lot of people, she is Forever Cassie from the show Skins and Gilly from Ghalmy of Throne. I think it's pronounced Thronees. Never heard of it. Okay, cool. But acting, as everybody here listening knows,

isn't always fun imaginative play. And while Hannah was shooting a particularly intense scene for movies she was doing. Someone told her about a healer, which of course led her to, well, magic. Yes, real magic. But this story isn't about fame or fantasy or even magic, exactly. It's about what happens when someone who has spent her life inside stories, stories about other people, other worlds, other realities, goes to get healing. And finds a group, just a group that promises access to something bigger, something ancient, something secret. Secretive. And, like all these groups, start at first for Hannah, it worked.

It really did until it really, really didn't. Please welcome today's wonderfully accented guest, Hannah. Hannah, welcome to our show. I've been so excited to interview you. Thank you. If you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself. My name is Hannah Murray. I grew up in a town in the southwest of England called Bristol, which is a fairly big city to the UK, and my parents both worked at the university.

Now, normally, this is where I would tell you about Bristol's university mascot, because I respect the tenants of journalism. But as you see, the UK schools don't necessarily have mascots. They do have like a coat of arms normally. or they have very important motos in Latin. So no giant foam hawk, no angry badger in a jersey. But honestly, no mascot may be the most British mascot possible. However, I will assign them a mascot. The Bristol Apologies.

Sorry. So sorry. Terribly sorry. Ew, yeah, sorry. Is here it for the apologies? Here, here, apologies. Yeah, yeah. It's terrible. It's terrible.

Also, we're so sorry we just did that. So terribly sorry. Terribly sorry. It's terribly sorry and we're doing this. Yes, would you like to apologize to, Rob? Rob? Say you're sorry. I am so sorry to the colonies.

No, no, no, terrible. Don't make me do accent. Terrible. I'm good at everything else. Yeah, I was the only child, very longed for only child. I grew up, like, been a lot of time on my own because I, didn't have siblings and I was very imaginative and sort of fascinated by, yeah, like stories and stories about magic specifically. I guess a lot of people of my generation were really

obsessed with the Harry Potter books and kind of believed that one day we would get this amazing invitation to this school and learn how to study magic. My imagination was very vivid. I sometimes found like playing with other kids at school, these sort of imaginative games, there would often be a point where they were like, you believe in this too much, you're weird. And I was so like, but I thought we were all believing in it and we were all playing in the same world and it was real to all of us. And they were kind of like, no, you think it's too real.

There's something like slightly wrong with you. I can see the sort of seeds of what became my career and became my career at quite a young age because I desperately wanted to be an actor. I was 11 and I went to see a friend in a youth group kind of production. And I just, I watched these kids my own age pretending to be like aliens and rabbits and mice. and I just felt this like bolt of something.

I suddenly felt like I was on the stage. And that was like, yeah, light bulb changed everything. I want to be an actor now. I had quite a nice, stable childhood. And then adolescence hit. And it was like a storm of emotions. Sort of depression and self-loathing. And I started smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, smoking weed at a very young age, really,

like sort of 13. And I found alcohol and other things to be the way of getting out. of my head temporarily. I was kind of a theater kid. I think, yeah, I think my plan was that I would audition for drama school and hope maybe I could get in and drama schools are very selective and very competitive. And so it kind of was feeling like a bit of an impossible dream. Like I didn't know how it could ever really happen. And then at this youth theater group that I was in, one day they said, oh, there's this TV show. They're going to film in Bristol. They're looking for teenagers. They were having open auditions and I went. And then, yeah, I had a round of auditions.

I kept getting kind of more and more excited that it felt like it might become real. And then I got offered the part on my birthday, which was amazing. First real audition, first professional job. Children, if you're listening, this is not normally how this happens. No, it's not. I had no No one in my family did anything even adjacent to the industry. It was a real sort of baptism of fire. I think it was like you had to learn really quickly how to be in front of a camera. And I think I was, you know, I was good at it. I learned quite quickly how to be in front of a camera, be on screen.

And for those who haven't seen Skins, just tell us your role. So I played a character called Cassie who, you know, focuses on a kind of group of teenagers who are all sort of 16, 17. And I was one of the most troubled of that group. She was the character kind of struggling with an eating disorder, struggling with a lot of drug use and kind of self-destructive behavior. As somebody I like, I thought he was sending me a message, texts and things, but he wasn't. What was the message? Pete. Right.

Wasn't you, was it, Ellen? I don't tell you what to do, Cassie. I'm just a taxi driver. So, like, who's telling me to eat? It was a pretty heavy role to take on at that age, but it was also a really meaty kind of satisfying role at the same time. Okay, so for anyone who wasn't a British teenager in 2007 or, quite frankly, an American teenager illegally streaming things on a laptop that had multiple viruses, Skins was huge.

Skins, the show followed a group of teenagers in Bristol dealing with sacks, sex, drugs, mental health, family chaos, identity, and friendship. What made it stand out was its rawness. Episodes often centered on a different character's perspective, portraying adolescence with a level of honesty that felt revolutionary. And Hannah's character, Cassie, wasn't just part of the ensemble. Cassie Ainsworth became the ultimate internet icon. She was the heartbreaking soul of Generation 1,

which is what they called the first group of teenagers on the show. seasons one and two. Have you seen the show? Did you watch the show? I haven't, but I watched the clips. Yeah, so did I. I mean, it wasn't really available in America. I suspected it is now, but no.

Yeah, I kind of want to watch it now. She was whimsical, daydreaming. She spoke in a breathless whisper. Sort of fairy tale like, behind her whimsy, the character was hiding a devastating battle with anorexia. And a bit of life-imitating art, perhaps. Cassie had an uncanny ability. to find intense beauty and things other people completely just walked past.

She would stare at an ordinary tree, a passing cloud, a piece of trash blowing in the wind with absolute wonder. And it was always capped off by her sincere trademark phrase, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Apparently it became quite a phrase to say in, oh, wow. the UK. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. I wish I was British. It's not too late. How did you deal with that instant fame? It just felt really surreal to me. I thought I really wanted to be famous. I thought it would make my life exciting and glorious and amazing. And then as soon as I started having people come home to me in the street, I really didn't like that. And I was a very shy teenager. I didn't know how to deal with the attention. So I was just quite overwhelmed by it all, but still really wanted more acting jobs

because I loved the work so much. So I went to university, carried on acting while I was there, and did three movies over three years, as well as an English degree. So, yes, I finished university, got cast in Game of Thrones, kind of within a couple of weeks of graduating.

This would have been 2011, I think. I graduated and then filmed series two of Game of Thrones. It was a very, very popular, everyone was talking about it all the time. I couldn't connect that there was this massive cultural phenomenon. And it was also my job to be in it. And for those of you not from Planet Earth or named Tyler Meesum, Game of Thrones was huge, okay?

Huge. She just outed me. Yes, I haven't watched the complete Game of Thrones series. I started it. And then I never finished it. But you can't watch everything, Lance. There's a lot of stuff out there. You know, there's a lot of stuff.

out there. Regardless, it premiered on HBO in 2011 and became one of the biggest things television has ever done. I mean, there was noble families, clawing for power, actual dragons, and also the most insane and often for me most satisfying deaths I've ever seen. Do you remember Ramsey Bolton's death? Oh, yeah, I remember it. No, of course I don't remember. Oh, you don't because you haven't seen it. Rob, did you? Haven't seen it either. I'm so sorry. Oh, no. I'm alone on this island. Oh, it's so good. It was so satisfying. It still sits with me.

I'm like, get him, eat them. Might say something about me, but anyway, the ones who know what I'm talking about, if you know, you know, if you know you know. I'm sure there's lots of people out there who know and a lot of people who have lost respect for me for not having watched it. Regardless, over eight seasons, Game of Thrones gave us epic battles, shocking betrayals and an estimated 300 F-bombs. Most of them, apparently, were hurled by a very angry man named The Hound. Oh, yes, the Hound, of course. Yes. Yeah.

By the final season, episodes were pulling in about how many listeners we have on this show. About 40 million viewers worldwide, which isn't bad, which isn't bad. And Hannah played Gilly, which I didn't gush about this to her too much when I was interviewing her. But I love Gilly. I loved Gilly. Gilly and Sam. You know, I edited this episode, Liz, and you gushed a little. You gushed a little.

You gushed a little, which is okay. Now, a little bit about Gilly and her part, Gilly grows up beyond the wall, which is inside a small isolated community run by a single terrifying patriarch named Craster. Also, her father, and he's a sick mother, effer. There's another F-bomb for you. Chuck another one up. Craster apparently takes his own biological daughters as his wife's, and then demands total obedience.

And for Gilly, the only way out and the only way to save herself and her baby is to escape. It's beautiful. Does he have a name? No. You're going to give him one. Why? You set a hold for you until he came back. You're back taking it.

What's beautiful? I don't want your stupid symbol. I want to save my baby's life. Can you do that? Can you? So a young woman trying to break free of a closed world built around one powerful man. Hold that thought. Hold. And it was also, yeah, it was a completely different level of production. Like the thing of being 17 and being on any set for the first time is wild. But then being 22 and being on that set where there are like whole world's construction.

from nothing and fake snow and CGI kind of creatures. And it was a step up of the kind of fantasy that acting could be, I suppose. I mean, there's kind of literal magic in that show. So yes, it was a bit magical. Once you are in something of that level, you can't suddenly go, oh, wait, actually, I don't want people to come up to me in the street. Like, people are going to come up to you in the street and ask selfies, and that's all going to be the deal.

And sometimes that could be fine and even lovely. And sometimes I would be having a really, really horrific day. And someone would come up to me and want to talk about the show or want to take a picture of me and maybe ironically hate having my photograph taken, which is an occupational hazard if you're going to be an actor. It doesn't really make sense. But I always felt really uncomfortable in front of a stills camera. It was knowing that people wanted that encounter to be special for them, but also sometimes feeling like actually I just want to like be walking around his wet pants and on the verge of tears and not have anyone come up to me.

Because the whole time in my 20s I was going through a lot of really extreme emotional ups and downs that I didn't really understand the reasons behind. I was like living this dream and had this incredible job and was on this big TV show. And so of course I should be happy all the time. Like what was wrong with me that I couldn't just always feel great. I'm talking about the acting because I do think there's a big parallel between this and then charismatic authoritative leaders that happens in cults, right? There's this lack of control, like you said. There's this sense of giving away your autonomy, doing what the system deems is right for you. Yeah, I also think there's a big piece around feeling like you have been chosen for a role.

That makes you special. you are incredibly lucky and you are beholden to the person who chose you, and you must always be grateful that they chose you. It could always come back to being magical, I think. And then there were also days where it could be within the same job, you could have these amazing moments and terrible moments. But there is that allure, right, in a cult where, like, there's a moment where you get built up and it's great again and you believe again.

And it sort of is the thing that keeps you coming back, chasing that feeling that desire, and you're feeling like you're having to be this performative person the whole time. Yeah. Which is just too much for any human. Yeah, it's exhausting. I definitely was struggling with anxiety. And I was struggling with depression, which would come and go.

And I was also, yeah, taking drugs, drinking a lot. Acting felt so random and hard to control. You know, I felt like I wanted more kind of control over my life and a bigger purpose and meaning. And that's when I started looking into kind of self-help. spirituality type things because I was always I was very interested in like clean eating and exercise and all the kind of stuff that most actresses feel is their obligation and part of their job and it was like oh everyone's talking about meditation everyone's talking about mindfulness maybe I'll take a course maybe I'll read some books and it felt really good it felt you know I felt great I spent a lot of time

reading self-help books reading spiritual guides going to odd little kind of talks or just kind of being curious, like started collecting crystals, like was just exploring and thinking I was having quite a fun sort of awakening to that side of things. I'd grown up in a very non-religious, very kind of atheist household. And so I'd never really connected with that sense of believing in a higher power or manifestation or all that kind of stuff felt really exciting to me. I felt less reliant on substances. I was definitely going to be kind of cutting down on my drinking and my smoking, even though I wasn't giving them up entirely. So I just felt like very, very good new phase in my life, which felt like pretty tame compared to what I

ended up getting involved in. So now Hannah has stepped her toe into the spiritual wellness world, which listeners, unfortunately, I myself, I have no idea about whatsoever. I don't, I cannot relate. I'm glad you're not saying anything or speaking about it because you come from this. with nothing. You have never been in like a weird acting class that was turned into a spiritual self-help cult of any kind. You haven't done that.

That doesn't exist either. You know why that would? Because that sounds ridiculous. It sounds made up, Liz. Oh, does it? Can I borrow your floor-length underwear that's hanging behind your head? Those are long since past.

But yes, at one point, I believed in golden plates and angels. You weren't a cult, but at least, least you got to wear comfortable underwear. I don't know. I think the Mormon underwear may look, looks pretty comfortable. In the winter, it kept you warm. Yeah. But think about it. I understand why acting and spirituality have this weird overlap. Because to be an actor, you have to believe in impossible things all the time. You have to believe the next audition could change your life. You have to believe that the 50th, no, does it mean anything? You have to

believe that your worth isn't determined by a callback from somebody picking kale out of their teeth sitting behind a folding table on a Tuesday. Yeah, maybe next Tuesday. So of course it takes meditation, energy work crystals. All of that could start to feel like an armor, like a way to survive a career that is constantly asking you to be on, open, vulnerable, rejected, judged, basically sometimes just by how you look and you somehow keep coming back, smiling. You smile through it.

Not to mention the actual work, which is difficult. There's roles and characters and real pain that you have to step inside. And the strange thing about pretending for a living is just how real it can feel at times. I played a lot of different roles and a lot of them had something in common, which was that they were pretty heavy, dark material, pretty emotionally fraught characters. and I got into this sort of pattern where I kept playing real people or doing movies that were at least loosely based on true events. And I was in the US in Boston filming a movie about the Detroit U.S.

U.S. U.S. uprising called Detroit, which was directed by Catherine Bigelow for about two months. And I was like, what will I do without a personal trainer? And so my personal trainer in London suggested someone in Boston, who was very nice, was very empathetic to like how stressful the job was. We were doing, I'd say almost constant night shoots on Detroit. And very, very, very brutal scenes, very physical, a lot of stunts, very violent, very dark scenes. And so she was really concerned with my stress levels, my cortisol, like what this was all doing to my body. And she was very kind.

And then I was sort of coming in like covered in bruises from doing me stunts and being kind of grabbed by other actors and thrown up against the wall and all kinds of stuff. And she was like, I don't think you're okay and you're losing weight. and something's going on, and I was like, oh, it's just my job. It's just, you know, it's just acting. And she said, well, your body doesn't know the difference, which I think is a very true thing for a lot of actors that you can tell yourself in your head as much as you like that it's pretend,

but your body doesn't know the difference a lot of the time. In the midst of all that, I shot a very traumatic scene, my character's dress gets ripped off, which is a real thing that happened to a real woman. and it was really important to tell her story and be realistic about what had happened to her. It was a sexual assault scene, yeah, it was, I mean, yeah, it was. And the reality of shooting a scene like that is that you don't do it once.

You do it multiple times from different angles, you do multiple takes of each angle. And so my dress got ripped off for real over and over and over again. And I really, really, really wanted to be fine about it. I was really determined that it was fine and I was fine. and I would have told anyone that I was absolutely fine, but I really wasn't. And my body was the thing that knew that I wasn't. And I had a lot of really, really intense physical reactions to it.

I woke up in the night and had to vomit. I woke up with like shooting pains all down the backs of my legs. I was really, really not okay. And that was when I sort of admitted to the trainer that I was really not okay. And she said, I know his energy healer. It's like, it's a bit woo-woo. You might not be into it. And I was like, I'm kind of into that kind of stuff right now.

think this will be an interesting experience to have, I'll feel nothing and it won't do anything and it'll just be a story I can tell of like that one time I went to see an energy healer. And on the other hand, I thought maybe this is going to heal all my shit and all my trauma and everything in one go. And it'll be this like magic fix silver bullet that was kind of what I was always hoping I would be able to find somehow. Yeah, so I went to see the healer. She was very sweet, blonde, kippy sort of dress sense, like floaty voice. And she made me. feel very at ease, very immediately, actually. I think I went in thinking, well, if I want to get the best possible experience out of this, I need to be really open. And then we sat down,

she said, I can tell you a little bit about what I do first, or you can tell me what you're looking for and why you're here. And so I said, yeah, it'd be great to hear about what you do first. And then she changed her mind and said, I'm actually not sure I want to do that. I think you should go first, which was a thing that I just remember thinking, like, that's strange. Why would she do that? But then ignored it and then launched into my story. So I shared kind of like all my stuff. And she kind of let me keep talking and keep talking. And I did and I did and I did. But I look back on that now. And it is like with hindsight and particularly with the level of involvement I got to and the courses that I took, she needed to know if I was the kind of person who would go for.

what she was really hoping to sell. And she said, I have different, you know, kind of modalities. I do Reiki. That'll just make you feel better for a little, but it's not like the really good stuff I have, which is for people, people who want to get in there and sort their shit out. And she said, I feel like you're one of those people.

And I thought, of course I'm one of those people. That's exactly who I am. And what she said was that this will kind of fix everything and get to the core of who you are and strip everything else away and you will be your most authentic self. And I thought, like, who doesn't want that? So she offered me this specific healing

that was going to be this incredible solution to all my problems. And I did it there and then. And while she was performing the healing on me, I had my eyes closed the whole time. And I felt an invisible force moving my body. My arms started to kind of float from side to side.

you know, kind of close to the body with hands not actually touching. And I just, I'd never experienced anything like this sensation. And I thought magic is real. And it just made me think, all I want is more of this feeling. All I want is to kind of get as close to this feeling and the fact that this woman has made this happen for me and taught me this truth about the world and the universe, which is that I can believe.

even magic, the kind of magic I imagined as a child fantasized about as a child is real, is much more real than I ever thought possible. I do not have an explanation for why that happened. I know it felt really magical. I no longer believe in that kind of magic in the way that I did for a long time after that experience, but I kind of thought I would get some kind of definitive, almost like scientific answer to why I experienced that feeling. And now what's really happened is more a case of I've made my piece with not knowing.

But yeah, that was the turning point. Once that had happened, I was in. And I didn't really understand the structure of what she was involved in, what she would encourage me to go on to do, to take courses, to go back to London, to get involved in a kind of different branch of this organization. But I knew I just wanted as much of that feeling as I could access. Okay. Hey, now I happen to know a bit about magic.

Oh, yes. Yes. Tell us, Tyler. Tell us. Oh, thank you, Liz. Thank you, Liz. Thank you, Liz. Thank you so much.

I happen to know a lot about real magic, which is to say fake magic. Fake real magic. I'm talking about misdirection, suggestion. The stuff magicians use to make you feel wonder. I'm talking about illusion, Michael. It's an illusion, Michael. This is the magic trick. Uh, illusion, Michael.

Mm. Trick is something a whore does for money. Or candy. Okay, I know where you're heading with this, Tyler. And I am going to give you some props here because I really loved this film that you made. So, as many of you listening may recall, Tyler made a documentary called An Honest Liar. It's actually the first thing I ever watched from yours.

And I was like, oh, he's really good. I want to work with Smyon on this podcast. Seven years later. Yeah. It's called An Honest Liar. It's about James. the amazing Randy, and he was a magician and escape artist who spent much of his life exposing psychics, faith healers, spoonbenders, and other people using the tools of magic to claim

supernatural power. Maybe he's the first cult buster, if you will. Perhaps. I mean, he was following Houdini. Houdini spent the latter years of his life kind of exposing hucksters. But Randy understood something. He understood something really important. He understood that belief is powerful. and wonderment is powerful. And in the hands of an entertainer, well, it's fun and it's beautiful, and especially if it's a date night or a 10-year-old's birthday party. But in the hands of someone claiming special access to a hidden truth, well, that can become dangerous very quickly.

Precisely. And these kind of techniques have been used for centuries by people claiming to have special access to magic powers or hidden truths. And yes, they are still going to. on today. So how does it progress in the weeks and days and months ahead? She was kind of selling like a package, I suppose, to get the full experience of what would really, really heal me was to get the healing from her. And then there was a two-day class that I should take that would give me tools to heal myself. But she said, you can also take it in London. There are people offering this in London.

And I was, that already kind of was strange to me because I was like, oh, this is in multiple countries. And there was no mention of an organization. There was no mention of anything really behind it. So she put me in touch with a woman who taught the class in London. And I signed up for it. And who's teaching these classes? I call her Chauvin in the book. She kind of headed up the London branch.

But it was a very small class. It was me and one other person. So I still thought, this is some tiny little obscure thing that I've stumbled across. The class was two very intense days in which I got to experience much more of that physical sensation of what I believed to be magic. You know, it was this very kind of soporific music, incense burning. I feel like there was a lot about the atmosphere of the room that contributed to a very kind of like client, relaxed state in which you were incredibly suggestible to everything.

All the information, all the rituals, all the meditations felt very very, very easy to lean into, I suppose. And there was a lot of information that I was quite skeptical about, like dragons and unicorns are real. And I was sort of like, that's pretty bold statement. You're like, I'm in a show where I know if the dragons could have been real, they probably would have cast them. Well, yes.

But it was like, you just can't see them because you're not evolved enough. But maybe one day you'll become evolved and you'll be able to see them. There's, yeah, there was, you know, a dimension that exists alongside our world, and certain people are evolved enough to see these beings. But also we did some meditations in this class, which were unlike any meditations I had done before. Really profound, almost like psychedelic kind of visions of unicorns and giraffes and incredible, like, star-studded skies. And, like, I remember thinking that a lot. I was like, I never need to take drugs again because this is, like, a much better drug. So at the end of these two days, there was a sort of path was laid out to us of like,

this is what you can do next. And this is a path that goes to this next class, which is where you learn how to give the healing to others. And then beyond that, you can take this path or you can take this path, but they went on and on and on and on and there were multiple courses. And this was suddenly like, this goes up and up and up and on and on and this could become my whole life. this could give me a purpose and turn me into someone of real kind of spiritual meaning and value in the world. And I just, I just wanted it so badly. After I did that class, it was suddenly very woven into my day-to-day existence. I think I'd just come back from shooting in Belfast on Game of Thrones when I did this class.

And then I think I was kind of heading into a period of sort of uncertain what my next job will be, like going to be on hiatus again from Game of Thrones. so have a lot of time on my hands, so a great time to pick up a new obsession, or this was my kind of full-time focus for the next few months. If I wanted to progress the next stage, it was going to be a week and it was going to be learning how to become a healer. And although I was very excited by the whole thing, I was also kind of daunted by the whole thing because it felt so serious and important. Part of me wants to just do this right away, and part of me is like, can I be a healer? I'm an like how are those things going to coexist?

And so I was sort of like, maybe let's just take a breath, maybe let's just take a pause. And then I was kind of occasionally invited to like more kind of casual one-off events. They were doing a sort of Halloween themed thing and things to do with solstices or equinoxes. And then in January, I went along to this psychic night kind of thinking like, that'll be interesting, kind of reconnect with these people, see what's what. And it was there that I was told we're teaching this week long course. in March. And it was very casually like, you should come and join us. And I thought, yeah, great. Actually, that's exactly what I want to do and this is the right time. In her book, Hannah

chooses not to name the group. She calls it simply the organization. And of course, we're going to respect that here as well. Of course, we're going to respect that. However, I did a little research. And I don't know. I may have figured out who the group is and knowing our very fucking smart listeners, I'm pretty sure we'll get some emails by the end of the day who have also figured it out. Info, it wasanicald.com. But the name isn't the important part. The important part is the structure, the secrecy, the levels, the promise that if you

keep going and keep paying and keep surrendering your doubts, you'll eventually get access to the real truth. And what Hannah starts to realize is that this small, strange thing she thought she'd stumbled into was not so small at all. I don't necessarily know how well-known they are in the world. I know they are international. I know they have thousands of members. I think something I can see now with hindsight,

particularly writing about it, is how much they borrowed from a lot of spiritual and occult groups throughout history. And so a lot of the things that were being presented to me as kind of secret knowledge, I could actually go into a bookstore in L.A. that specializes in kind of magical reading, and I could find all the information in there. They claimed to be descended from the Golden Dawn, which is a British occult group from the early 20s. Alastaira Crowley was involved in the Golden Dawn, yes. Mr. Crowley, as Ozzy called him.

Yes, we've covered Alistair Crowley previously on this podcast. And you've played previously on this podcast too many songs. No, I played the perfect amount of songs. So founded in 1888, the Golden Dawn was a secret society devoted to ceremonial magic. Think of it as a Victorian era Hogwarts. Members climbed through levels of initiation, studying astrology and alchemy and Kabbalah and ancient mythology. Among its members were poets and artists and mystics and events. and mystics, and eventually, Alistair Crowley, who became one of the most infamous spiritual

figures of the 20th century. His unconventional beliefs even earned him the title, The Wickedest Man in the World. But also, and most importantly, Crowley heavily influenced rock and roll, Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page. I'm still in the middle of that book on Led Zeppelin. It's great. He became an ardent follower, Jimmy Page did, and everyone from Iron Maiden to David Bowie sang songs about Crowley. His image also appeared on the Sergeant Pepper's album. But to Hannah, this wasn't that, the wickedest man in the world. It was a community of people who all seemed happier, healthier,

and convinced that they had found something that was changing their life for the better. I don't think it even occurred to me that it could be nefarious, which maybe sounds incredibly naive. But I was like, everyone that's into it says it's changed their life and made all their problems go away. And this is like inherently healthy, inherently positive. And I just wanted as much of it as I could get my hands on, really. It felt like the same part of me that was addicted to cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, was like, well, I can get addicted to this instead.

And I was addicted to it. I felt it was the same mechanism that was being activated. But I was like, this is a good addiction. This is a healthy addiction. And this is really positive. And so let's just like go. I was really hungry for as many of the. those kind of experiences as possible really.

And as much as I was really into it and I loved it and I thought it was magical and brilliant, I thought if I tell my friends that I'm taking these classes where they tell me dragons and unicorns are real, they might have some questions. And I knew on some level that they might have some doubts. And I didn't want the doubts to infiltrate this special thing I was falling in love with. So when I went to do the course, I decided to stay in an Airbnb around the corner from where it was being taught. because I had a roommate, I didn't want her to know what I was doing. So I created this bubble in which for this week all I was doing was immersed totally in their world.

It was in the basement room of a hotel where they were teaching the course. And then it was suddenly a much bigger group of people taking this course. It was around like 20 people. And people had come from all over the world. And suddenly, like there were a lot of Americans. There were people from all over Europe. for people from the Middle East, I was like, oh, this is bigger. I'm part of something much bigger than I had originally thought at all.

It was slightly more female students than male, but most people were kind of older than me. I realized going through this experience is that it's not a uniform group of people at all. There was one young woman in her 20s who I developed a very close friendship with, who is still a very close friend of mine who's called Jody in the book. But it was interesting to me how over the course of the, that week from day one kind of going like, I'm not sure I really want to hang out with these people outside of this week. By the end, I was like, these are the most glorious human beings I have ever

encountered in my life and they are my family. You know, it really, really shifted very quickly. Like, my sense of possibility kept expanding and I was really excited to see how far that could go. A lot happened in that week. At first, it was just more and more of like the incredible feelings of my investment in the reality of magic getting stronger and stronger, because now not only could I experience receiving the healing as magical, but I could experience giving it. And we were kind of taught different parts of the process, and then we'd practice on each other in pairs, and then we'd be handed down more pieces and more pieces, and there was a reverence with which these movements and gestures were performed that felt very sacred, you know, you're kind of searching for

invisible energy points in the air around someone's body. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not going to be able to feel those. And then I could feel them. I could feel them physically with my fingers. It was so interesting to keep thinking, this has changed my life. Magic is real. And there was a kind of mood in the room and mood in the air that felt very profound.

And it was maybe two to three days in that we started talking about this kind of ultimate goal. You know, why are we doing this? Why are we learning to perform these healings? and it was saving the world, bringing about a sort of utopian paradise. I was then kind of like, okay, this is what I was put on this earth to do. I've found exactly where I should be because I'm going to be part of saving the world. It was, yeah, the penultimate day of the course. And I arrived at the hotel.

It was a little bit late. I was plastered. And Chavon was getting out of a taxi with a man who I did not. No, had not met before. And she introduced us and said that he was Steve and he was the leader of the organization. And she had actually mentioned him to me when I had signed up to do the course. And she had said, you know, the leader of the organization will be over visiting while the course is going on. And he's a Game of Thrones fan and he'll probably want to get a picture with you.

And I thought, oh my God, how annoying. I don't really want to get my picture taken with some weird man. And then I met him. And I just felt like he was powerful in a magical way. And I thought, this is a magician, this is a real magician. And he was confident to a degree that I had, I mean, I'd met a lot of movie stars. I'd met a lot of very confident people in my time as an actor and in my life. And it was a different level of self-possession and surety than I had ever really known before.

It was all about kind of magnetism and energy, you know, and like, way he carried himself. He and he had this whole kind of like, I'm just a really down-to-earth guy. I've got my Starbucks cup, like, call me Steve, that kind of vibe. And then he gave us a talk about the next step on the path and these advanced courses that he taught. And it was just a whole different ballgame when he was in the room, when he was talking. Like he kind of walked out, started his talk and was like, he said, we're supposed to do 45 minutes of cardio a day. I'd rather be having sex for my cardio than anything else, right? Like, who's with me?

And straight away, he made a joke about sex. And so immediately, that topic is very present in the room. And it really had not been. I had not understood at any point how to reconcile my sexuality with my spiritual arts at any point up until he kind of walks in and is like, hey, let's think about it. It was such a gear shift. and I just felt I just couldn't stop thinking about having sex with him. And I couldn't understand why I couldn't stop thinking about that.

And then he talked about evil and that the whole point of these advanced courses that he taught were about learning how to fight evil and destroy it. And it was like, evil is real. I've seen it. I understand it. I know how to destroy it. If you want to destroy it, come and take these courses with me. And I'd never known anyone to speak like that. In terms of our physical contact, I remember him holding my hand.

I remember him stroking my hair. And so I remember his presence. I remember his voice in my head. I remember him kind of sitting down and talking to me very urgently and saying, magic is real. Magic is real. Magic is real. I always wanted to believe magic was real and now I know that it is.

And magic is real was something that was said to me at a very, very, very vulnerable moment. it felt very key that my words were echoed back to me, you know. Magic is real. Magic is real. I did not confide in anyone about my feelings for Steve because I felt like they were overwhelming. I didn't really understand where they were coming from. And I also felt like I potentially had a special connection with him. And I wanted to keep that secret.

There were other students who had a very different attitude towards him. It wasn't like everyone was feeling what I was feeling. And to me, that made me feel all the more special. And then I started to really kind of, on the final day of the course, really break down and really, really believe that we had a special connection. Because I started to hear his voice in my head. Magic is real. Magic is real.

There was something about the delusions I was having, the experiences I was having were building and building and building throughout that week. And then he arrived and things escalated significantly the day that I met him. And then the day of initiation. And this kind of build up to like what initiation was and what it meant and how it was going to transform us as human beings. Like that buildup was very, very significant

in me feeling this sense of something was coming, something huge. And the ultimate consequence of that day was that, was that I ended up in a psychiatric ward. And I really, really fully lost my mind for quite some time. It's difficult for me to fully explain what happened on that final day because my memories, while many of them are very vivid, they start to fracture and the chronology gets unclear.

So I'd lock myself in the toilet cubicle for many hours because I was completely freaking out and wanted to be somewhere kind of contained and safe. I was in the toilet, in this kind of, my head was in agonizing pain. I was kind of hearing voices. I was in a very bad place. And Jody figured out that I had gone missing because, you know, we were close friends and family in the toilet cubicle and she told them where I was. And I was told specifically that it was not a breakdown.

I was told it was a demonic possession. So I remember the exorcism. I remember thinking it was the funniest thing because I thought me and and him knew the truth, which was that we were soulmates and had done this incredibly complicated thing to save the world, but no one could know. But I thought we were pretending that I was possessed. And so the female teachers who were all present for the exorcism had to be sort of tricked into thinking there was something wrong with me that meant I needed this special care. But what I do know is that they performed an exorcism before they called an ambulance. So that was their priorities.

take us to what happens when you wake up in a psychiatric facility. Yeah, I mean, so I woke up, I mean, it was a long process of kind of being taken there, not understanding where I was being taken, being in an ambulance thinking I was in a chariot on the way to the palace where he and I would be married and be king and queen of the universe. I mean, I'd really, really, really lost my mind. I can't kind of overstate that. It was an incredible detachment from reality and an incredible belief in the ideas that had been being discussed all week about saving the world, taken to a fantastical extreme. So when I ended up in hospital, for days I couldn't understand where I really was because it didn't fit with the narrative that was going on in my head, which was that I found my soulmate, we're gods, we're divine, we ruled a universe, we have saved the world.

You know, it was really difficult to piece together what was going on around me. I had a lot of unanswered questions, and I thought Steve had all the answers. We were in very consistent contact over WhatsApp while I was in hospital for several weeks afterwards, but in those conversations we were having by a text, he told me that I was, my beliefs that I had heard his voice in my head were accurate. I asked him at one point about the sexual connection I had felt to him, and he said, you're special and there are things you are right about. And then the fact that I had this very intense experience and ended up in hospital also made me feel special.

I thought, like, no one else has gone through this. No one else has been possessed. No one else has been possessed. But no one else was in Game of Thrones in that room. no one else was famous. And I do suspect that the level of attention I was given by him had something to do with my job and my fame, although he always insisted that he didn't care about famous people and wasn't interested in celebrity.

And I really, really wanted deeper understanding of what had happened to me. And he suggested to me many times that he did have answers for that I was not ready to hear them until I had taken further courses with him. And so that was such an incredible hook. for me to keep obsessing over him, over the organization, over those courses, over, I just need to find out the truth of what really happened to me. And if I just stay in this, I will eventually understand what that really was, because I could not make sense of it.

But I ended up taking more courses with them. Those courses were taught by Steve's wife. That was a really big turning point for me was, in my head, we were soulmates. In my head, we had gotten married in this divine palace. And so to find out that he had a wife was very destabilizing and confusing to me. And then I found out she was teaching courses in London. And so I had to go, had to try and garner whatever information I could about their relationship. And those were courses in witchcraft, in sort of wicker.

And it was four days I spent taking these classes. And I always think that that element of the story that like all this stuff happened. and then I took classes in witchcraft with his wife. Just feels like the strangest twist in the tail to me. That was kind of, I think that was the beginning of the end. I think first of all, finding about her and feeling like I didn't have this kind of special position in his affections that I necessarily thought I did.

Then there were a lot of quite high-level students taking that course, people who had progressed through a lot of levels that I had not yet. I started to see a lot of vulnerability in those people. And I started to look around me and just start to question, like, if this is what all these courses get you to. Why do these people seem so uncertain? Why do they seem so nervous? Why do they seem so down on themselves?

And then there was also a certain degree of traditional gender roles being enforced, which if you're a woman, you had to wear a skirt or a dress. There was, yeah, it was just a lot of stuff in those four days that was thrown at me that made me go, this isn't what I wanted. But the piece of it that is almost darkly funny to me now is that the thing that I think really got me out was that it started to feel really boring. And those wicker classes, in one day we spent like a whole afternoon making bath salts. It was like endlessly, how long can I stare at a vat of salt and imagine it has healing powers, you know, it started to feel frustratingly dull. And I thought, this isn't exciting.

this isn't what I want magic to be. And that felt like maybe the most definitive moment. I was very lucky that I was still very connected with my friends. And I was living with a very close friend who had nothing to do with this organization. And she was connecting me constantly with the real world and with normality. And I ultimately found that was a lot more seductive than what they were offering. And when I stopped, I thought, I'm not going to take those further courses. I'm not going to become this kind of warrior of light that they,

have set up as this path I could follow. And then I realized maybe that that was opening up space to do much more appealing, much more interesting things. The life in which I stayed in that world is so depressing to me, the idea of what it could have looked like. And Steve, was there, how did you reconcile that relationship? I kind of felt like it's, in some ways, I think a lot of people who have had frustrating, mostly text-based sort of toxic relationships with someone they've wanted to be with,

who's maybe with someone they couldn't have, can maybe relate to the strange way our dynamic played out. I don't know. Like, ultimately, he sort of ghosted me. You know, I sent him this message to try and connect again, to tell him I wanted to take these courses and I was ready to, like, walk that path and he never responded. He definitely, I think, enjoyed my attention for a time and then decided. to move on from whatever plan he had had for me. When you look back at that now, what's the language that you have for that experience?

I don't know. I don't know. I'm not. I thought I would write this book and get all the answers. And before that, I thought Steve would give me all the answers. And now I have really had to make my piece with some things happen to us. I think that we cannot fully explain. And while, you know, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after a lot of hospital. I really believe in that diagnosis, it makes my mental landscape make sense to me. But the whole kind of perfect storm of everything I went through and all the different factors, I don't have a definitive, like, label to put on it, for sure. I mean, the main thing I think is, like, what a terrible environment to be in if you have undiagnosed bipolar. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. And also, I'm so just enamored by

where you are today and how you're able to talk about it and you've written an amazing book about it. But I'm so proud of the book. You know, it took me seven years to write it. I started writing it only maybe a year and a half after I left hospital. I kind of obviously could not shake these memories. And I thought, you know, I do remember so much. I remember a lot of detail. What if I tried writing it down?

And I kind of thought that was just for myself. And then I couldn't stop writing. And then I read back what I'd written. And I thought, oh, I think this is a book. And that was kind of an oh, fuck moment because I was like, Oh, God, what does it mean if I abolish this? And I feel like I'm in the right place right now to tell this story. Like, writing this book has been the most rewarding experience of my life.

What about acting? No. Done. Done. When were you able to see fully this experience and the cultic nature of this group? And were you in a cult? Well, that's the title of your show, right? You have to ask that question.

I have a very complex relationship with that word. many do. I've experimented with using that word to describe my story and I find it often gets a reaction from people that I don't love and I feel like it erases nuance. And I also think there's this weird way it gets used now with like beauty products and exercise classes and like I walk as a hairdresser the other day called like cult something and it's like why that word. Like it's almost become slightly devoid of meaning. Like I said, I understand why it gets used and I I think sometimes it is the only word to use. It's not a word I like having in my mouth. I think in terms of my full experience, the clearest, kind of most concise way I would describe

it as a spiritual awakening that turned into a mental breakdown. Where are you with magic today? I think magic is in much simpler, more grounded details of life. Like a really beautiful day and you're walking in the park and it's spring and the trees are full of blossom. Like, that's magical. You don't have to give up your whole rest of your life to pursue that kind of magic. It's just woven into our world. I don't drink anymore.

I don't take drugs anymore. I don't even smoke anymore, which took a long time to kick that habit. And, you know, I get up early, I go for walks. I write, I read a lot. I have really nice friends where I live. It's a simpler, quieter existence, and it's so rewarding and so fulfilling. Like, there's wonderful things in my life, you know, on all kinds of different levels. feels good.

You feel good. Thank you so much for all your time today. Thank you, Liz. Thank you for holding so much sort of space and asking really insightful questions. And yeah, your empathy has felt

very palpable. Thank you, Hannah. You're amazing. A huge thanks to Hannah Murray for sharing this inspiring story with so much honesty, so much grace. Thank you, Hannah.

I was blown away by just how comfortable she is in her skin today. Skin. Yeah, you did that. Skin. I did do that. But it's true, though. She's just really cool and knows herself.

And I just was like, I want to hang out with you longer. And her story is remarkable, and she wrote a hell of a book about it, everyone. It's called The Make Believe, a memoir of magic and madness. It's out tomorrow, by goodness. You don't have to wait long. June 23rd in the United States, if you live in the U.K., well, you can already get it. Drop everything you're doing and go pick up.

Go get it. What are you doing? Why are you listening to this stupid podcast? Go get the book. That's what I say every week. I loved this book. I really did. It's incredibly personal and intimate.

It's like you're living it right along with her. And even though it's a memoir, it reads like a thriller. Yeah. Well, but the stakes are real because it's her real life. Right. Exactly. It's just great. highly recommend. And for my audiobook friends, Hannah reads the book, which I am planning to do as well.

More of that accent. More of that accent. I'm so sorry. Is this sorry? I'm entirely sorry. The link is in the show notes or wherever you get your books, which I would suggest your local bookstore. Yes, support local. For the name of the organization, we know you smart cult. Coulty. The listeners are already typing. So feel free to send us your best guess to info it was I in a call. Tell you what, the first one I see we get that is correct. I'll send you a nice little gift from our sponsors. Yeah.

I'll send it personally. A secret gift. I will lick the stamps myself and send it to you. Also a big thank you to you, our Patreon members. We really appreciate you. If you're out there, you know who you are. And I just want to say thanks, man. If you want to join us in our little tribe on Patreon, you get ad-free episodes.

Yeah, we got some new badass members. Squirrel and Space Nut. Squirrel and Space Nut. Those are their real names, I'm assuming. There's the real names. Now, I earlier mentioned we talked about my documentary and Honest Lyer. No, I mentioned it. I talked about it.

I teed it up. Regardless, you can find it on many of the services, but for our Patriots, members, I'll put it up there and you can watch it for free. Free. Free things. Yay. Nothing in the world is free, Liz. You should know that by listening to this show. And as always, if you have a story and are listening about a group, a guru, a coach, community, a class, a retreat, a movement, a situation ship with matching robes. Email us. Email your story. Info at wasanacult.com. And also just a reminder, if you've been listening for years and you haven't yet, or even if this is your first time, take a moment.

Rate, review, share the show. Go forth like good little missionaries. It does help. And next week, we're going to be back with a woman from the Netherlands because we're keeping it international, everybody. We're not coming back to the home country. Now, sorry, United States. We're taking a break from you. We're keeping it abroad.

until the next week, actually, when we do come back. But she was part of a socialist group. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Next week on, was I in a group? Until next time. Were you in a cult? And I would also need to learn in this party to be separate from bourgeois society

because you get ideas in the society that are harmful. And this organization was going to be a safe haven for me. You know, it would be a place for my ideals, but it would actually give me a basis to develop as a person. And, yeah, at the time I believe that. Was I an occult as written, produced, edited, not by me, but I do the other things, host, right? I don't know. Co-host, Liz Akuzzi.

Stuff. And this gentleman. Oh, yes. Liz. Alistair Iykewze And Tyler Liz Ayakrowley Nice, very good

And me Who does Tyler Magic Meatham Everything on this Yes Tyler Magic Meesam Illusions Michael And Rob The actor that didn't make it

In anything he auditioned for, Perra I was in the play in third grade. Oh, I read their review. That was good. Yeah. My mom needed it. Rob the forever understudy para.

All right. I gotta go. Thank you, everyone. Bye.