Was I In A Cult? - The Two-by-Twos: “Be Sad and Die”

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Today’s guest, Meagan, host of the "Trust Me" podcast, shares her journey growing up in the secretive Christian cult known as the Two-by-Twos. From a childhood dictated by oppressive rules that governed her every move, she reveals how this “hidden” religion shaped her life. With wit and raw honesty, Meagan recounts the manipulation and isolation she endured, and how she finally found the strength to break free.  And shortly after, when the cult’s darkest truths finally surfaced for all the world to see, her entire idea of her childhood came crashing down. This wasn’t just a tightly controlled Christian sect, but something far more sinister…  _____ Listen to Meagan’s podcast, “Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Beliefs, & Manipulation” wherever you get your podcasts.   Follow Trust Me: @trustmepodcast Follow Meagan: @meaganelizabethgrainger Follow us on Instagram/TikTok/FB: @wasiinacult  Have your own story? Email us: [e-mail]  Please support Was I In A Cult? Through Patreon (we appreciate the hell out of you guys)  Merch is here! www.wasiinacult.com 

Please note this episode touches on sensitive subjects such as eating disorders and sexual abuse. Please listen accordingly. There's very kind people in it. Some of it is like the most wholesome, best memories of my life. Just my family and all my cousins and we'd go out to the lake and all the friends, which means members would come and just so many nice, beautiful, wholesome people just laughing and like playing and just the safety of all these people. Like if you need something, like they got you. And so to kind of start discovering the real rot underneath it all has been

Discovering the real rot underneath it all has been such a journey Welcome to was an occult everyone. I'm your host Liz Iacuzzi and Your other host Tyler. He is again not here Sadly, he is well not here. Sadly, he is, well not sadly, sadly for us, happily for him. He is in Toronto for the second weekend screaming his second film in TIFF. And this one is the one he directed. And guess what guys, I'm gonna plug it.

See, look at that Tyler. If only he were here to actually hear me plugging his movie. Okay, I've actually seen an earlier cut of this film. I have to say, it's really good. And as someone who wasn't like a huge Randy Bachman fan, I really didn't know until I watched this movie just how many songs were his. So it's a fascinating historical film, but it's also a very touching story about his prized Gretsch guitar and I won't give away the ending, but it's also a very touching story about his prized Gretsch guitar. And I won't give away the ending, but it's called Taking Care of Business. When it's available to rent or stream, highly recommend guys.

Definitely watch it. Oh, I will. And I know that Tyler is going to freak out. You can't say she never did anything for you because now she has. And I think she's probably done now. Guys, we have another amazing hysterical filling co-host. Absolutely. Shani Payton, everybody.

Yay. Shani Payton. The crowd goes wild. No, you're better than a fill-in. What are you? I mean, I just feel like I'm just scooting right in to take over Tyler's position. So we'll see if he likes that. It feels like more to me too. But yes, I'm so exciteding right in to take over Tyler's position. So yeah, we'll see if he likes that. That's what it feels like more to me too. But yes, I'm so excited to be here.

Welcome. Thank you. Now, if you're new to this show, you might not want to start on this one because it's normally a different co-host and then you'll hear Shani and then you'll listen to the rest of the episodes and you'll just wish Tyler was Shani and it'll ruin the show for you. That is 100% true. I have that effect on people. But here she is and we're so excited that she's here today hanging out with me and doing this hosting jab. If you've never heard the show, on this show we give those who are in cults or cultic environments a chance to share their story and take their power back.

And today's episode features another fellow podcaster, Megan from the Trust Me podcast, which is a show about, you guessed it, cults. Megan grew up in a Christian cult, but guys, you might not believe me, but this specific Christian cult, I had never heard of. It's called The Two by Twos, and when I heard her story, I was like, well, okay then, that's definitely

a different take on all the Christian cults we've had on our show to date. And I asked the lovely Shani, Shani Payton, to be my co-host today for many a reason. One, you may recognize her voice from the first season of our show. Uh-huh. Thou shalt be named. Oh, best episode ever. That was the episode title of her episode back in season one. Go listen to it.

A reminder, she was also in a Christian cult and she also has her own podcast as well. Sure do. What's your podcast called? The Shanty Pants Show and big surprise, we talk about cults. What? I know, crazy. We have a lot of fun, you know, bring the humor into it a little bit.

Why would you ever think of doing something like that? I don't know. I just don't even know. Maybe from experience. Humor does not belong in serious subjects. It sure doesn't. Sit down, woman. On the Real, thank you for being here subjects. It sure doesn't. Sit down, woman. On the real, thank you for being here today.

It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be here. And hopefully by the end of this episode, I'll have a new job. So, sorry, Tyler. She'll have two podcasts. Yeah. So much easier to have two than one. So much easier. So with that, Tyler will be back to join me again next week. But today, I'm going to dazzle you with your eardrums with Shani's melodic jewel tones.

You have no idea how special that made me feel. I think jewel tones are like colors. I think it is a color. So Shannon, would you like to go ahead and intro the episode? Yes, I think we are ready to go. So with that, let's just get into today's story. Hi. Hi. I'm so excited to do this and be here and we're in a studio. I know. And we both have shows about cults.

It's so exciting. I'm excited for any listener of ours who doesn't know your show yet to get to hear more Great Call content out there. Thank you. So why don't you just briefly introduce yourself? Sure. My name is Megan. I grew up in Kansas.

We lived in Wichita. My dad is a surgeon. And I had a pretty happy life. I was raised in what is now being referred to as the two by twos. Growing up, it was called the church with no name, the truth, the way, Jesus is one true way. But blanket statement, it had no name. That was the real appeal of it because Jesus didn't have a name for his disciples.

But we were to tell people that our religion did not have a name for his disciples. But we were to tell people that our religion did not have a name. Sound familiar, Shani? Yes, it does sound familiar, Liz. Michael wouldn't let us call our cult a church either or anything else, really. So very, very familiar sounding. What was the reason for your no name church again? Very similar as all glory goes to God and we should not be taking a name above His name. So all churches are bad because they have a sign out in front that says, you know, like

whatever it says, Holy Cross or you know, something like that. But we were better because we didn't have a sign. Yeah, where she wins. She wins the suppression game. Yes, it's the best game ever. Had you heard of the 2x2s? You know, I have, but not until more recently when I've gotten into, you know, all these interviews in the cult world, kind of. But I was drawn to it because of how similar it is to the group that I came from.

So yeah, I feel like they're trying to be as cool as our cult was with the no name thing especially, but you know, I just don't know how they're gonna stack up against us, so we're gonna find out. We'll do a comparison chart at the end and see which cult is worse. Who is more traumatized? One of the really interesting things about the two by twos

is that there is no written documentation. Like you don't know what you believe in. All you know is that you're supposed to be really sad. Jesus is about to return and you're probably going to hell and life is worthless, all that matters is salvation. And like, you're probably going to hell and life is worthless, all that matters is salvation. And like, you're probably going to die today. Let's hope you're modest and meek enough to make it to heaven. Are you sure we really weren't in the same cult? Because I'm pretty sure that this like

encouraging moment is brought to you by our cult leader. So yeah, sounds again, very familiar. They sound very familiar. I agree. Our hymns, they're to the tune of normal Christian hymns, but somebody just changed the words to make them the saddest and worst things you've ever heard. It's like, my worthless life for God, I hate it here. God hates me and da da da da. And it's so just like, God hates humanity. He had to send his son to die for our sins. And we have to live a life like Jesus. And maybe if we do, we'll go to heaven, but probably not.

We may not have had the same sad, worthless hymns, but we definitely had the same probability of getting into heaven. So, you know, it was sad. May the odds be ever in your favor. Well, what was the doctrine around the outside world? They're all going to hell. It's really hard to be a human when you're like, oh my god, I can't believe Mrs. Daisy is going to hell. Golly, Nad. She's so nice. She's so nice and her kids all going to hell. And it wasn't like hell was, you know, I know the Mormons, it's kind of like, it's just

a less cool heaven. It's like, no, hell is infinite, horrific, on fire pain by yourself. And I knew I was going to hell because I was terrible. I listened to country music one time. So of course I was going to hell because I was terrible. I listened to country music one time so of course I'm going to hell. What was your hell going to be like? Because this was like a crazy fire hell. Yeah, I mean our hell is pretty much the same, the very biblical hell. I mean you already felt like you were in hell, like sitting in the metal chairs every Sunday and Wednesday and Friday and like, can it really get worse? I'm already there.

A fire sounds great right now? I'm already there. A fire sounds great right now. I don't know. But yeah, so it was very, very similar as far as the biblical version. It was more just like maid being scared about it. It wasn't just like you're reading it in the Bible. It was like being forced down your throat how scary it should be to you. And we're like, uh-huh. One of the big tenets of the two by twos is that you have to be in the world, not of the world. We weren't allowed to watch TV, weren't

supposed to watch movies. If you said, I want to go to this movie, your parents would go, is that where you want to be when Jesus comes back to the earth? And you'd be like, I guess I'll do it, but I got to know where that exit door is, because if he's coming back, I'm, you know, whatever. I didn't really think I would love to be an adult because Jesus was obviously

about to come back. Yeah, he's always conveniently right about ready to, depending on who's preaching that day. He's like that one friend who whenever you call her, she's like, Oh my God, I was just about to call you. Bitch, no you weren't. No you weren't. You are just feeling bad because you forgot to call me back. The rules outside of meetings were wear long skirts, wear your hair in a bun. When I was younger it was very popular for a very big poof at the front, kind of the FLDS poof. That was the fashion. So you kind of dress like an Amish person,

but you live in the normal world. Yeah. So I was sent to this insane private school with some of the wealthiest children in the world. So that was embarrassing. Starting in fifth grade, the length of my skirts became a very big deal because they were supposed to be long,

but I would wear a skirt that was a normal length and then I would roll it up super short. My mom was so, so heartbroken. And I felt terrible. I was like, I wanted to dress like this, but I'm kind of a hoe. Oh my goodness, this sounds so familiar. Once again, we called them the Christian poof. And I wanna say it was pretty, like became a big deal in like the 90s. But it was like so special because your hair, you would try to like get this perfect poof.

And I remember being obsessed with it. Like I couldn't get the bobby pins right. And then the poof, it was so stressful, this poof. And I have like a cowlick. And so my poof the poof right. It was so stressful this poof and I have like a calic and so my poof went poof right and I was jealous of all my other friends poofs and it was very stressful to be a teen worried about your poof. Did you do like the big like Mormon poof? No, no it wasn't the big Mormon thing. We're kind of classy.

The front poof. It was just a big front poof. I did that too. Yes. I wasn't even in the Yes. I did this one. This one. Okay. I'm watching. And I got the bobby pins there. Yes. And then I would sort of circle it over here. Mm-hmm. Wow. I should bring that back. That looks gorgeous on you. It really does. Let me do it too. Thank you. I used to do this in my first waitressing job. I'm gonna do some bobby pins.

That looks amazing. I can go get some if you want. I gonna do some bobby pins. That looks amazing. I can go get some if you want. I kind of feel like you should. That looks so like you're not gonna want to see yourself without it. Go get bobby pins. Hold on. Okay. Holding for bobby pins. Okay. I'm gonna see what I can find. We're poofing it out for the rest of this interview guys. Yeah we are. A zip tie. Would a zip tie work? So tell us a little bit about the two by twos.os, like how they came to be. So it was started by this Scotsman named William Irvine. And he was a Presbyterian and his sister died.

This is in like 1895. And he got super emo about it. I just want to die. He was suicidal. So he starts reading the Bible. He joins this thing called the faith mission, which so much of the two by two ideology comes from this faith mission from Scotland. He joins it. He gets really fixated on the verse in Matthew 10, where it says Jesus sent out his disciples

two by two and they didn't have any belongings. And he's like, holy shit, I figured it out. We're not supposed to have anything. We go out and trust and the harvest field will take care of us and church buildings are wrong. Everybody who's a preacher is wrong. And he got all of these people in Ireland kind of join him on this. They were like, we are not becoming a sect. We are not doing any of these things. Just if you want to come chill with us on Sundays or Wednesdays, we have extra God stuff that we can talk about. And it was all about being lowly and like Jesus. They called themselves the tramp preachers and they were like poor and like sad and that's Jesus. And it grew like wildfire. People loved it.

So, there's no church buildings. He said, we don't have any possessions and we don't have homes and we stay celibate. So, you now have celibate people going out two by two by like Matthew 10, two women, two men staying in people's homes because they don't have a house. All right, Shani, here is where I need you to come in with Tyler biblical facts. Well, Liz, did you know while in Matthew 10, it doesn't explicitly mention the phrase two by two, it is often referenced by the two by twos because this chapter describes Jesus sending out his 12 disciples with specific instructions to preach and heal. The mention of the literal two by

two is Mark 6-7. Calling the twelve to Him, He began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits. Like me. You're welcome. A worker is the highest calling a person can have for their life. They are chosen by God. And so, we are groomed into thinking that that's the most important thing that you can be. You're spreading the gospel message. You still, I don't think most of them even know what we believe because no one's written it down. The only requirement is be solemn and sad and lowly. You have to give away all of your possessions. You have

to take a vow of celibacy and you have to be completely submissive to your overseer, which is the head worker of each region, and be willing to be sent anywhere from the Philippines to Minnesota with a person who's gonna be your two-by-two partner for the year. And I remember, so I'm in this school that's like a private school, it's very hard. I'm not mathematically or scientifically minded in the slightest. I'm like the school that's like a private school. It's very hard. I'm not mathematically or scientifically minded in the slightest I'm like trying to do my math and I hear my dad say something like Our highest wish is for her to become a worker and I was like them

Why the fuck am I doing this like why am I learning this shit? Yeah, but your dad he became a doctor So explain that like if you're supposed to have nothing but then he's like, but I'm gonna go to school for a million years Workers are supposed to have nothing. Okay if you're supposed to have nothing, but then he's like, but I'm going to go to school for a million years. The workers are supposed to have nothing. The creatures are supposed to have nothing. So, the flock, I'm just using their terminology, has to have a house for the workers to stay in. It's called having an open home, and it just means the workers are always welcome.

It takes a lot of money to keep this thing running. Your dad and mom are providing food for us. Yeah, we're always, oh, the workers are coming. What should we make for the workers? Like, oh my gosh, let's make steak. It's the workers. Tyler, you know what the worst thing about summer ending is? The end of the summer season of strawberries.

That's the worst part. Close. I hate transitioning from summer to fall, but you know who's great to help with all that? Quince. Yeah, Quince. I am a true autumn, so I love Quince's fall line. And what's your favorite, Liz?

They have these cashmere sweaters that are $50, but they feel just as soft and high quality as like, I don't know, like a $300 one? I just splurged on a pair of cashmere sweatpants. I mean something I normally wouldn't spend on myself and I have to say, incredibly soft, amazing. I am going to edit this show in those sweatpants and I didn't have to break the bank to get them. Quince has incredible high-end quality for affordable prices, guys, because they work

directly with top factories so they cut out the middleman and pass those savings on to Tyler's sweet cashmere behind. I'm feeling them right now. And they only partner with factories that use ethical and responsible practices which is super important when it comes to the fashion industry. Right so it's not just about looking good, you're doing good too. And in that case, that's a win and a win, which means it's a win-win. Right. Make switching seasons a breeze with Quince's high quality closet essentials, guys. So go to quince.com slash cult for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash cult to get free shipping and 365 day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash cult to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash cult. It's time to cozy up with my cat in my cashmere sweatpants. Sexy. Tyler, you know what the worst part of having a cat is? Yeah, they judge you from across the room and they read your mind. Scooping litter. Scooping litter. It's the never-ending chore. Yeah, tell me about it. Guess what though? I'm officially retired from scooping and it's not because of my aging back.

It's because of a kick-ass product called Litter-Robot. We have talked about this product on the show before. If you're a cat owner, the Litter-Robot, I don't know, it's like, it's as big as when the wheel was invented or refrigeration. Yeah, or the clapper. You could turn your light on from across the room. Big deal. It is a big deal. It is a big deal. But, but, but we have a Litter-Robot, greatest invention ever. Our cat loves it. We love it. Everyone loves it. And you have less odor, less mess, and no more bending down and scooping. The moment my cat Buzzy finishes his business, litter robot takes care of everything. You just have to do the drawer every few weeks.

You're good to go. Let me repeat it. It's a self-cleaning litter box. Crazy. Now if they could just invent a self-cleaning Tyler. Yeah, those are called cats. Whiskers, guys, is currently offering $50 off Litter Robot Bundles and as a special offer

to you listeners of this show, go to StopScooping.com slash Colt and use promo code Colt to save what? An additional $50 on any Litter Robot Bundle. Do the math, Tyler. I did. I just triple checked it with a calculator, with a computer, with a spreadsheet and a piece of paper and that's $100 off any Litter Robot Bundle at StopScooping.com Colt.

Use the promo code Colt. StopScooping.com slash Colt. Promo code Colt. Now please guys, stop scooping litter. My back hurts thinking about you scooping. Just stop, just stop. Don't do it ever again. What was your week like as a kid?

So you go to Sunday morning meeting, you go where you're assigned, you would like drive so far Sunday morning. You'd wear your itchy dress and put your hair on the bun and it's just like the driest, most boring. You can barely bear it. Like a part of my brain has snapped and broken from having to sit through it. You know I remember like on Sunday mornings my dad would be playing the piano and be laughing and like running around and getting dressed and my extended family and then all of a sudden my grandpa would be like, it's almost time for meeting. And it's like the soul would

suck out of everybody. Everybody would become completely different people. We would go to meeting and everyone would just cry and shake and apologize for existing while at the same time insisting that we're the only people who have joy. It's so weird because I feel like God was in the moments before we did this. Like this just, it's like crushing your energy and it just kind of rings you out and then you get re-ringed out on Wednesday night. They find a building that's free, such as a library, a funeral home, whatever, where they take an hour and they preach the gospel for people to just listen.

And you had to. Since the time you're one or two, you're getting little swats and spankings. You always, when we would play meeting, we would all hit the shit out of our dolls to make them be quiet as a really little kid and that's what the one thing that a lot of outsiders would State as what they found appealing like I've never seen children behave like this before You know what what I will add about the spankings That Megan just talked about is that that again is very familiar and I do remember time where we were meeting at a Grange hall and someone called the police on someone

because they were spanking their child in the parking lot. And so that was kind of like a big ordeal and we had to get more secretive on our spanking locations. So very familiar. Yeah, you got to be real careful with child abuse. Got to hide it. Don't want the neighbors hearing. Was there a lot of physical punishment?

For me, there was. My sister was much better behaved, but there was something in me that was rebellious. And the workers tell you, like, you have to break your children's will. My dad and I must have had a past life together where we just were dueling or something. Cause I remember I told my dad, that didn't hurt me.

I didn't even feel that. I needed to just have to like whack me a little bit harder. And it's not like he was like punching me or using a belt or anything crazy. But yeah, I was punished a lot and definitely grounded and isolated from my peers for tiny things. I think he was sad that he had to do it, but you had to. They were just doing the best that they could with what they were taught. Any punishment whatsoever just like came from

what they thought was saving my soul. And of course dating and marriage was all controlled as well. I know a thing or two about that. Dating is not a thing. Not a thing. I'm doing the double poof now. Um, that's a little bit rebellious. Is that too much?

When were you expected to like meet your guy? Oh, you mean going for a walk? Ooh, yes. So going for a walk was something that you did at convention That's where everybody would meet in a state once a year So convention is two hour meetings twice a day and then in one hour meeting at the end of the day outside hot a tent misery because it's all about what was going on in

1897 when William made this up. So it's just like, we got to stick to William's plan. And everybody still kind of looks Victorian, like how he looked and whatever. Like, you're in pantyhose. It's hot as hell. You're on a bench that's so uncomfortable. And once you were there, a guy your age would say,

do you want to go on a walk? The whole like places, oh my word, they're going on a walk, are they going to get married? Is that going to be the thing? So I would usually just go back into the dorms. I never went on one walk. Unwalkable. It's the name of my book. I just think the whole thing was bizarre. Yeah. Shani, sounds a bit like your group too, no? Absolutely. We did similar things as far as once or twice a year.

We called ours camps, but again, we're better than the two by two, so we have different names for things. But we would do our camps and it was basically like a meat market where you're going to find someone and this is your opportunity, you know? So you kind of have to grab someone when you're young, which I did. I grabbed mine when I was 12. And by grab, I am so sorry. I don't mean physically. There was no touching. No, she just meant grab them by the balls. I just mean Liz. Liz.

Sorry. Out of control. She's like, these balls are mine. Gosh, he was the hottest. I don't know about his balls, because obviously that was not the case. Yeah, never, I still haven't. So very similar, very similar and equally pathetic.

And if you guys have never heard of the two by twos, like I hadn't, well, now I'm a little bit surprised that I haven't. It's hard to really get this through to people sometimes, but it's everywhere. Well, now I'm a little bit surprised that I haven't. It's hard to really get this through to people sometimes, but it's everywhere. Every city in America has this very secretive sect going on. There's a meeting in Beverly Hills. I've gone to Germany and we walk right in the house, sit down, and you're just implicitly

trusted because you're a part of this way. I mean, I've never been to a city where we didn't go to a meeting, and we traveled a lot. How do you find the meetings? You talk to an overseer who is like, I'll talk to that region's workers and get you the address and we'll tell them you're coming. And you'll just spend hours with them feeling like you're communing with their hearts or something because you're both in the one true way.

I mean, my worst memory is just being in a Friday night gospel meeting. Everybody's over the age of 40, which to me is ancient. No other kids my age and just being like, I wish I could take dance lessons because I think I could have been a really good dancer. Really? And I wasn't allowed to be. I wanted to be able to go to dances, like the homecoming thing. I wanted to go to the game.

I wanted to do all the shit. Yeah, of course. And I was just like, I hate it. I don't know if this is too dark, but just like kind of tying something around my neck and being like, let's go. And it didn't work. But I was like- You tried? Yeah, I was like, I want out of this shit.

This is like so depressing and there's no joy for me here. Like I don't like it. Yeah. Yeah. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. Guess what Tyler, my son just started preschool. I know, I know. Mine just started kindergarten. They grow up too fast. It hurts me.

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for families to navigate life together. Greenlight.com slash Colt. That's Greenlight.com slash Colt to try Greenlight for free. Greenlight.com slash Colt. Say Tyler, you ever feel like you're caught in a real swell mystery, do you? Oh yes, we're doing the 1920s voice again, huh? You mean like a whodunit with a twist of jazz and glamour. You bet I do, Liz. You bet I do. It's June's Journey, see?

It's the bee's knees of hidden object games. No, guys, really though, I love to play June's Journey when everyone's asleep and it's just me and June Parker solving crimes like a real gumshoe, I tell ya. Sounds really, really romantic late at night, you and June. See, every scene is packed in June's Journey with a 1920s razzle dazzle. Plus, you get to design your own ritzy estate. I've been turning mine into the perfect Catspie-style getaway, and I'm talking about

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It's a real cat's meow, I tell ya. You feel like a real gumshoe. I just wanted to say gumshoe twice. So again, these workers go out into the world, two by two, and need a place to stay, which incidentally is in someone's home within the group, referred to as an open home. And Megan's family house was that open home and she had a constant revolving door of strangers from all over staying with her as she was growing up. Super weird and familiar. Did you have that? Similar. We didn't call them workers, but yeah. Kind of

your home was always open to anyone from out of town to come to your meetings, so people would stay at your house all the time. Wow. It was cool. Yeah. Not dangerous at all. I'm very sarcastic. It was dangerous. Bad idea. Geek. So the cracks really, like a big fracture occurred when I heard that sister workers always lost their mind because they would always come stay with us. Rest is what it's called. Well, it's called nerves in the religion because it's your fault. You have nerves, right?

But I don't exactly know why. At one point, there was three sister workers living in our house with us who were all resting. What does resting mean? You're not doing gospel meetings, but you're not going to live your normal life. Like, you need a rest. And people are like, why do you need a rest? You don't have a job. All you have to do is show up on Sunday afternoons and like give a sermon and go to convention. You're kind of confused because you're seeing some fucked up shit. And it's a very depressing gospel message that's just like, be sad and die.

And the brother workers also were having mental breakdowns left and right, but like sister workers definitely were all just like dropping like flies. And I was like, that's weird to me. I would think this would be the most mentally robust group in the world. So I'm taking note of that, that's strange. Take us to the breaking point. Yeah, so when I went to college, first I went to KU, then I went to K-State.

My parents were like, here's where meeting is in this small ass college town. Here's your meeting. And I was like, cool, I can't wait to never go to this. So yeah, I just, I stopped going, a lot of guilt. I lived with a couple of girls who were still in it. They went a lot. One of the girls' bedrooms was downstairs with mine

and they would sleep together upstairs because I was like of the devil because I wasn't going to meeting. Just mean. Well, I was so lonely. I was in college and I would just call Nightline, like Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla's show. Do you remember that?

What was that? Was that called Nightline? Call Love Line. 1-800-LOVE-191. That's 1-800-LOVE-191. Love Line, Love Line on Carolla. That show was called Love Line, actually, which started in 1983, if you can believe it or not.

Love Line was a popular late night radio show that offered relationship, medical, and sex advice, combining humor with serious counseling. I wonder if there's another show I know that combines humor with serious topics. Not serious counseling. Not serious counseling, just serious topics. Not coming to my head at the moment, but it's probably very good. Very very good.

Great show. It's probably not that good if you can't remember it. Must have sucked. Not serious counseling. Just the topics are serious. Just the topics. But. Just the topics. But the humor is amazing. It's seriously stupid.

So amazing. And the facts are out of this world. You know, they just come in right when you don't need them. Yep. Not everyone can Google a fact like Tyler. I'd call it and just disguise my voice and be different people. Like that was what I was doing in college. Reading Chicklet and prank calling Dr. Drew by myself. So I was just so lonely and I'd see kids hanging out and I didn't know how to do it.

And I just wanted friends and I didn't have any. So she finally calls her parents. I was like, if you keep making me love with these girls, I'm gonna end it all. And they had enough wherewithal to be like, oh, she's kind of serious. So they put me in a little place, I guess a mental institution for lack of a better word,

for like a week and I kind of got my shit back together. I lived with this woman, my roommate, who was like doing my colors, you know, like giving me like, are you autumn or spring? And I was like having the time of my life. I saw in the newspaper that the movie Elf was coming out and like my dad came to get me at 9 o'clock at night and I was like, we have to go see Elf. And my dad was just like, he agreed because he was like, well she was fully insane. So we went to go see Elf and I loved it.

10 a.m. tomorrow. 10 a.m. tomorrow. Santa's coming to town. Elf and I loved it. 10 a.m. tomorrow. 10 a.m. tomorrow. Santa's coming to town. Santa here? I know him. I know him. And that was one of the only movies I've ever seen in the theaters with my dad. And he was like, you can live in the dorms. And I moved in and like, oh my god. These girls were like exciting.

And like they'd all date athletes and travel to go see them. And one of them was always like in Maxim, hometown hotties. And then like I did like one of those college Playboy things. Like I showed like not anything, but it was like still. It's like I was just rebelling out, just like boomeranging from one world into the next. That was so extremely different.

Yeah, it was weird. While I did not do the Playboy stuff, my rebellion was a bit more, you know, making videos on the internet, pretending to day drink all day, white claws, all throughout the pandemic, all day long. And it was rebellious, just the same. And- So no, no playboy for you.

No. I mean, they kind of missed their chance. I feel like when they start doing the geriatric version, I'm I'm preparing for that right now. Like, let me have another drink real quick. Sorry, I am. And I'm just drinking my my clock yeah my clock is not done ticking it'll also come in at a good time because like later in life money like is always nice right yeah kids need to go to college playboy calendar I mean

whatever whatever they need I'm here for it. And unfortunately, sometimes in environments like this, disorders manifest due to all of the suppression and other forms of abuse. I developed bulimia, and this is so common in cults and in this religion. Because if you're not allowed to drink, smoke, dance, what are you going to fuck with? Your food. So I was really sick when I graduated college, and my parents were What are you gonna fuck with? Your food. So I was really sick when I graduated college and my parents were like, you're gonna go to a rehab for it and I was like no and they're like it's in Malibu and I was like okay. So after college, moved to Malibu. I read Eat, Pray, Love on the airplane ride there.

I just lived in a beautiful house in Malibu and had crystals that we would talk about what they meant in journaling and sisterhood beach walks. And so it was just all set up for me to become a completely different human being. And I started dating a guy out here that I had known before. He was an actor. He was on a TV show at the time. It was like Cinderella. And I moved in with him and it was weird.

Yeah, I got into the cult of Hollywood, I guess. Still had a horrible fear of hell and death. I do remember calling my parents one point just hysterically bawling and I was just like, I don't wanna go to hell. I wanna be with you guys for eternity. I hate this and then being like well I just wish you would come back and bring back I'm like just tell me I'm fucking not dude right just say you're not but they were okay with you living with this guy

was that like that's against every single rule but at some point they were like we have no control over this girl. So then what happens? I got really into like self-help and meditating and all this stuff and his lifestyle no longer appealed to me. Party, party, party. I actually once went to a seminar and I came back a day early and I was like, gonna surprise him and I walked in and he had made a hundred pieces of toast for a party going on inside of his mind. And he was like,

thank God you're home. We need more bread. And I was like, okay, I got to get out of here. So I did. And I went to school to get my masters and then I became a therapist. And then I started working at a counseling center and like seeing clients and I loved it. But essentially, I started to kind of see how fucked up I was through that and didn't really feel like I had enough self-knowledge to be helping other people. So, I was like, I'm going to take a little break on that. And then I was out with my friend Adam and he got a text from my co-host, and trust me,

Lilla, that said, do you know any therapists who used to be in a cult? I want to start a podcast. And he was like, what the fuck is this? And turned it to me and I was like, well, I guess I'll meet her. So the podcast is called Trust Me. And we just speak to people who have either left high control groups or people who are experts in various different realms of control or thought processing or whatever.

And it's been an enlightening experience that has been like a free education to free my mind from so much trauma. It's kind of like we're able to laugh with people a little bit like y'all are because we were also in it. But basically I got a shit ton of free therapy because we were talking to experts and people who had left. So it was just like, if you listen to our earlier episodes, I barely say a thing because I'm so confused.

My brain does not understand the course of control. I'm just struggling to understand what we're even talking about. And then finally it dawns on me a little bit more and my brain starts opening in spaces where I'm like, oh my God, I'm not going to hell, what? And like, there will still be a part of me that always believes that I will. And I really hope that anybody who grew up and who has that too knows that I feel you and it sucks.

So where do you stand on the whole going to hell thing today, now Shani? My perspective has changed quite a bit since growing up in the cult that I grew up in. I still would consider myself a Christian. I just have a lot of different viewpoints. And so the hell thing, it's not that I don't believe in like hell and heaven, I just don't believe in it

how I was taught it. So my kids will never receive that kind of messaging because I just don't believe in scaring people into anything, you know, and that's how it felt was just guilty and self-conscious about everything because you're just scared. So I don't believe in that. So it started out as just an idea to spread the message of God, going out two by two, staying at strangers' homes, unsurprisingly took a dark turn. So people started to come forward and be like, this worker abused me. And I didn't realize

that they were committing incredible crimes. I mean, just insane crimes. The chokehold of silence that this cult has on people, the information control is North Korea level. Do not look it up on the internet. Do not listen to these better exes. Do not watch a single thing. They are wrong. They are wrong. They are wrong. So like very good people still have no idea the scope of this. I definitely had no idea. But a lot of eyes were open last year, when an overseer named Dean was found dead in his hotel room. Why would an overseer be in a hotel room? You're

supposed to be staying with people. And the first everyone was like, Oh, my gosh, he must have had COVID. And he was just trying to protect the flock from spreading it. No. This man was a child sexual predator, also just serial sex addict, rapist, whatever. He had a laptop that people found stuff on. Number one, so many people had to have known this. Number two, what are the odds that he would die in the specific way that this is all just coming out? So the spirit chose a new overseer named Mark and Mark also turned out to be a child sexual abuse offender.

The spirit was wrong twice. So yeah, I think at the top, there is almost a mafia-esque crime at the very tippy, tippy, tippy top. So Dean dies, they, number one, wipe his computer. Number two, don't wanna give it to the police. Number three, have a giant funeral for him. And then some of the overseers printed out a little letter that was like, we just found out Dean had a double life. He's a bad man. And they decided

to bring that to some elders who have meetings in their home and show it to them. It's not to be given to anyone. It's not to be passed out. This man has been staying in children's homes for the past 40 years. You're not gonna tell everybody? So they show it to the elders. One woman, no clue who it was, was like, fuck this shit, and took a picture of it and sent it to the X 2x2 group, which is a Facebook group where we've all connected, and it exploded. And suddenly this veil that has just been hanging over everyone's eyes was lifted of weight. We've been letting them stay in our house with our what? He's an overseer. He's this, he's that. And they look so drab and like, they talk like this. And you just completely do not

think that this person would have any sexual desire whatsoever. So it's a disaster by these spirit-led overseers who are so evil. They all know that they're sending pedophiles to different fields. They all know that at least. I don't know how much, how deep the rabbit hole goes, but yeah, you know. So hopefully more people are waking up. But at the same time, this isn't going anywhere. After the Dean Brewer shit came out, the guy who died in a hotel, and then his successor was also outed, it was just made more clear to me like, oh, this is a huge, giant, really big problem. And they're trying to cover it up. So I was dating a guy whose brother was in the police force,

and they were trying to get the FBI to pay attention to this. So he drafted a letter to me. He was like, you should send this. And he knew all the keywords. So I wrote it and sent it. And I was playing pickleball with two of my friends, very LA, and I got a phone call and it said, FBI. That's what it says when the FBI calls you. And I was like, hold on guys, I'm going to take a call. So I take this phone call out behind the bathroom of this public park. I'm like, hello, and hi, can I talk to you about 2x2s?

And I'm like, yeah, we're investigating it. It was like being in the Truman Show in that moment because I go, well, it doesn't have a name because Jesus didn't have a name and blah, blah, blah. And he said, do you think maybe it doesn't have a name because we can't trace anything about it? And I was like, oh my God. And I think it's 900 perpetrators have been named at this point. And how many victims they're able to have because of how many houses they've been able to stay in. And it really was like waking up in a show where you're like, I've had so many dangerous people

spend the night right next to me, hold me and only by the grace of who I was did nothing happen to me. So that's why I got called. And he was basically like, you know, your dad is one of the good guys that this hides behind because like, it has really good people in it that are really nice, and they really believe it. And so I called my parents and I was just like bawling and I was like, I think that this is like a crime organization and I think that this is really bad. And they kind of get it, but they kind of don't.

It's hard for them because their entire life is just taking care of people in this community and going to give them rides, going to bring them food, like having the workers stay and so an entire purpose. The brain does crazy things, but there's just a lot of cognitive dissonance that's very, very frustrating. I just cannot fucking harmonize the two sides. I'm just like, wholesome, healthy, happy, upbringing, sexual predators, cult, crime ring. Like, it's so hard to be like, I wear my hair in a braid and I wore like a prairie dress just so people could touch kids. Like it was for nothing. It's so hard. Like they were just grooming us to be susceptible. So fucked up. Absolutely disgusting. It's like inviting an axe murderer into your house for

dinner. And to be around your children. You know, that's what's I think so scary is you've got these completely innocent children that have no control over who's coming in or out of the house. Awful. Awful. We'll be right back. I love reality TV on Pluto TV. Same.

And I love that it's free. It gives me the freedom to watch Bravo's Real Housewives Vault Channel. I'm totally free to watch Bad Girls Club. I'm free for Jersey Shore. Love and hip hop, I'm free all day. Survivor, I'm free all night. With hundreds of free reality shows, you are totally free to watch what you love on Pluto TV.

Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. What if I told you that I just walked away from a wonderful and very high profile fitness brand to pursue bigger dreams? And I broke away from my own golden handcuffs to pursue a more artistic life. What's up? I'm Kendall Tool. And I'm Gaylee Alex. And we are so excited to share our new podcast, Wholeheartedly with Kendall and Gaylee. The two of us have taken the uncharted path

and felt we were at a great place or at least at a pivot point in our lives to share our biggest tragedies and triumphs. So that everyone here with us can learn from our battles, victories, and our total F-ups. And that's from two people who have really been through it. Good Lord, yes. We're both still navigating life

and we want you to come along on the journey so we can stay in the fight to overcome whatever BS is thrown our way. It's not easy out here, but we'll be walking and talking with you through building careers, self-worth, relationships. Oh, and get some good laughs please. Or tears. There's tears. That's true. There's always tears. That's true. All with our hearts on the line. So if this sounds additive to your journey, we are here for you. Join us every week on Wholeheartedly with Kendall and Gaylee.

Wholeheartedly will be available July 17. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And of course, the healing path is never a straight road. So I had all those feelings of just like, damn it, I wish I would have been raised differently and regret, regret. And who would I have been? And who knows who cares? It's just so easy to feel smarter than cults, but we're not. I had a pretty good childhood and I try to just stay grateful for that because I really value that I was raised with parents who never fought.

There was no drinking. There was no drugs. We were spending a lot of times together playing games and I knew that they loved me. But I know that that came at the price of people as fortunate than me having the worst things happen to them that could possibly happen. So I try to stay cognizant of it and just like say on top of it and remember that There are predators in people's houses right now And what are Megan's thoughts on religion today?

I'm a very spiritual person. I think that there's a higher power. I think we're in a simulation or some shit I don't fucking know but I definitely know that Man-made religion is here to control us, and Jesus is cool. People can do whatever they want with him, but I think his message is peace. I really love LA, and it's funny, I became a writer. And I'm really grateful that I was able to follow the book, You Pray Love, I know now is considered very cringy, but at the time, thank God I picked that up

in the airport as I flew to Los Angeles and was like wait what like there's more to life there's more to life and yeah it's just I I I love my life Megan, thank you again for sharing your story with us. And again, everyone, if you want to hear more of Megan's story and other stories, listen to her podcast called Trust Me, Cults, Extreme Beliefs, and Manipulation. And Shani and the spirit of plugging podcasts, tell them yours again and how to listen. The Shani Pant Show and you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast.

It's amazing. Megan's show is amazing too, by the way. That's a great show. Guys, we can all be doing cults. Isn't it weird? And all be friends. I know. Isn't, we're nice, we're good community.

It is. Good community. We're trying to keep it that way. We're not competitive. No, no, I don't. But my show is the best, I mean. I mean, kind of like my cult, my show is the best. Actually, I don't claim that.

I don't claim that at all. Because Tyler has all the best enemies. It's not true. It's not true. It's not true It's not true. Yeah, everyone's show is fantastic and ours is mediocre Oh, I have a real quick announcement. Oh, yeah to our patreon members First of all, thank you Thank you very much your contributions. Keep us going every week week to week.

But I want to mention if you are itching to join our Patreon and supporting our show, do it on your desktop, guys, because starting November 2024, if you purchase your Patreon membership via the Apple app, the iOS app, Apple is going to start charging like 30% on top for that. So your membership will be whatever it is plus 30%, which is just annoying and dumb. So stick to desktop. Just go to patreon.com, find us there, the old fashioned desktop way, you know? Still good for something. And avoid those dumb added Apple fees.

Don't get it, but whatever. Next week, guys, we're going to be back with literally one of the most Laugh Out Loud interviews I've had maybe since Shani's episode because Shani and I had some big old laughs. We had some fun. But this gal is a treat. She is, her name is Hannah. She resides in Geelong, Australia. So you might get some more shitty Australian accent

from me if you're lucky. We would do this thing where we would pile in the car and drive around the farmers in our area and see if we found any lambs that look injured or away from their mothers and then we would wait half an hour to see if their mother came back and if they didn't we would take them. They're stealing lambs? Yeah basically but we were doing it under saving them. We were saving them. We're not stealing them. We're saving them from a life of hardship in the wool industry. That's all we wrote. Thanks again for listening and sharing and supporting. We will see you

guys all in a week. Was I in a Cult is written, hosted and produced by Liz Iacuzzi. Wait, you look- Tell me a good Tyler. Was that your best Tyler? Let's give me a little more. Was I in a cult is written, hosted, and produced by her, Liz Ayacuzzi. And him, Tyler Mee-Sum, who is not here,

but far, far away in Canada. Kickin' butt. Our special guest host today is the lovely, Tyler's favorite word, lovely Shani Payton. Music, sound, design, and mix by the worker Rob Para. And our social media overseer is. That's me, you guys, Shani Payton. Our executive producer is Steven Labrum.

Their true overseer. Thanks for coming on Shani. You're welcome. It was such a blast. I always enjoyed talking with Liz Ayacuzzi. You are the bestest and we will definitely be having you back. All right. That's our show.

Thanks everybody. And I think we already said that. So I'm going to shut up. Wrap it up! Yay! Bitches. ["Take Out Your Night"] Your poof is looking kind of sad. Is it getting wilted?

Yeah, it's getting saggy. It needs a watering. Yeah, it needs a little fluffy. I poofed up the sides. I didn't poof the poof. I think that's... Fail. Now I just look at one of those like...

Fail. What are those like dogs with the long ears? The Cocker Spaniel? Oh, Cocker Spaniel. Yeah. So cute. So cute. You would make such a cute dog.

So adorable. Thank you. So precious. Thank you. Bye. Bye.