Was I In A Cult? - Zen Master Rama’s Meditation/Computer Programming Cult: “Going For the Gold!”

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

This week, meet Jim Picariello, who, in the early ’90s as a hopeful college kid hyped up on way too much coffee, thought he was signing up for a meditation class… and ended up in a tech-driven, enlightenment-seeking, quasi-Buddhist spiritual cult. Yeah… this one was a new one for us too. Led by Frederick Lenz - aka Rama - aka Zen Master Rama - aka the most spiritually enlightened dude who could glow gold - shapeshift into Egyptian gods, and… also totally needed your entire paycheck in order to - oh wait, hmm, we forgot… but we’re sure it was very spiritually necessary.___Follow Us for More Culty Content:Instagram & TikTok: @wasiinacultConnect w/ Jim: Instagram: @jimpicarielloBluesky: @jimpicariello.bsky.socialLinkedIn: Jim Picariello Support the Show:This show runs on listener energy (and we promise we don’t drain it like a cult leader).If Jim’s story got you thinking - rate, review, and share.Big love to our Patreon members… you’re the real gold.And if you want ad-free episodes and exclusive content, come join us on Patreon. Enlightenment not included.Share Your Story:Have a cultic experience of your own? We want to hear it.Email us: [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The views, information, or opinions expressed by the guest appearing in this episode solely belong to the guest and do not represent or reflect the views or positions of the hosts, the show, Podcast One, this network, or any of their respective affiliates. I have taught meditation to over half a million people. I have helped a lot of people out. I have worked 18-, 19-, 20-hour days trying to do anything I can to help people succeed in life. And sometimes people are very generous and they say, Jesus, I've made all this money. Let me help you out.

You know, Liz, do you think our listeners have noticed that our show follows a similar structure usually? I mean, which in the world of storytelling, if there's anything good about a cult story, is that it follows a perfect three act structure. That's true. The guest is introduced to a group. It seems promising, hopeful. Everything starts seemingly great or even, you know, better than great.

But then things start to get weird, go wrong, internal battle, internal battle, internal battle, leading to the aha moment, as I like to call it, and then the eventual exit, followed by the mental shift, the reclaiming of self, the badass is reborn, and then, you know, credits with dumb nicknames that you usually write. Yeah, if in fact, actually people get to the end of the episode before... The very end. If they don't, they're missing out. And each guest story usually starts the same. My name is...

My name's Jim Piccarello. But before that, we usually introduce ourselves. You're Tyler Mason. And you're Liz Iacuzzi. And then we go into where they are from. I was brought up in Wellesley, Massachusetts. And here is where Tyler gives a quick, yet interesting fact about their hometown.

Like perhaps Wellesley, Massachusetts. My wife makes fun of me because I can't say Massachusetts, right? But I just did there. Wellesley, Massachusetts. Keep that in, Rob. I did it again, I did it there. Wellesley, Massachusetts. Keep that in, Rob. I did it again. I did it again. Wellesley, Massachusetts. Massachusetts. I literally was there two days ago. I was just there. Wellesley Mass, founded in 1881.

It's a charming Boston suburb known for its elite women's college, Wellesley College. In fact, Hillary Clinton went there in the year 1900. The entire campus burned down in a fire caused by a faulty heating pipe. And by the 1980s, Wellesley certainly had a reputation for having more self-proclaimed energy healers per square mile than anywhere east of Sedona. It's a quick, Tyler, quick, a quick fact. And then usually early the guest mentions why they are part of our particular show. I am here because 30 years ago I was indoctrinated and trapped in a quasi-Buddhist computer mind

control cult run by this guy Rama whose real name is Frederick Lenz. But we know at the end of the episode, after some riveting storytelling, some ten gentle facts, some poop, penis and procreation humor. Thank you, Liz. And an ad for Quince. Quince.com slash cult. The person being interviewed will thankfully leave the cult. Yeah. But today we're going to kick it off a little bit with something from the end of the episode.

This is after our hilarious guest Jim from Wellesley has successfully left the cult. Dateline NBC did what would be an Emmy award-winning investigative report on him. It was like 45 minutes long. From Studio 3B in New York, here is Jane Pauling. Frederick Lenz is an author, businessman, millionaire, and spiritual leader. But some claim cult leader is a more apt description.

They flew me out to New York and they interviewed me like crazy. It was definitely an expose on this guy. They made him look terrible. Today Lenz controls his own New Age empire with hundreds of people he has called his disciples. Lenz has invented his own brand of Buddhism. He's got his own New Age band, Zazen, but it's the cutting edge of technology where Len says he is the most comfortable these days as a self-described computer software visionary. Now we'll play some of that Dateline piece throughout the episode, but first we should go back a bit. Yes, it's time for the token father-motherhmm. Also throw in a bit about his religion growing up. Growing up, my dad was ex-Catholic.

He was like done with the church and my mom was Jewish. So I went to a Unitarian Church. You know, as I grew up, I also like learning about different philosophies and religion. Like I learned about Buddhism and Hinduism and, you know, Judaism and Islam. I was into ghosts and the paranormal and like witchcraft and stuff like that all through high school. So I was a solidly a B-minus student. At around 15, I discovered coffee.

I was exhausted once I had a big thing of coffee and all of a sudden I was like, everything's okay. I'm not nervous about anything. This is crazy. So I became hooked on coffee in a way you probably have never heard. I drank the equivalent of 24 eight ounce cups of coffee a day. I would be dead.

Hmm. Yeah, that's a lot. I would actually be dead. I can't drink one sip of coffee without starting to have like a full on panic attack. I'd like to see that. Now I stopped drinking coffee almost 10 years ago. I love the taste of coffee, but I can't drink it. But matcha guys, matcha is where it's at. I've been on the matcha train since before.

It's cool. My skin looks good. And it's all do do do do. Matcha.com slash cult. I actually was part of the teacher's pool in the teacher's lounge. Like every month I would put in a dollar and I could drink as much coffee as I wanted. So I'd walk in with my cup and I'd be like,

hey, Joan, how's it going? Glug, glug, glug. Cause it was the eighties. If you weren't on Coke, nobody cared what you did. So what was interesting about that was, is that I was so out of it on coffee for the last year and a half of high school, that I don't know if I learned like coping skills.

That was over a period of time, probably six months of just sleeping for two or three hours a night. But that's what happens when you like overdose on coffee or amphetamines or something like that. And I thought, you know, I thought it was a God for a little bit. Unlike Liz, I love coffee. And I am not alone. Caffeine is the most widely consumed psychoactive drug in the world. Now, it works by blocking adenosine, a chemical that tells your brain it

is sleepy. Known as the take a damn nap signal. But here's the thing, coffee is also very good for you. You're not going to get me on coffee versus matcha. Matcha is way better for you. You're not gonna get me on coffee versus matcha. Matcha is way better for you. I'm not necessarily telling you, Liz. I just happen to be giving some facts about coffee. As someone who went the first part of my life without coffee, I am now making up for lost time. So coffee is packed with antioxidants. In fact, it's the biggest source of antioxidants in the American diet. Which says a lot about both coffee and the American diet. Yeah, in fact, studies show that moderate coffee consumption can reduce your risk of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, support liver health, lower your chances of type 2 diabetes,

improve physical performance, even boost longevity. And my personal favorite, just smelling coffee, according to a study, can reduce stress. You don't even have to drink it. At this moment, I am drinking a beautiful cup of brown liquid coffee. I love it. And before I take a sip, I always do just pull in a big, a big sniff of it.

Mm. It is, it's fantastic. I love the smell of coffee. I do, I love coffee. I love big sniff of it. Mmm. It is. It's fantastic. I love the smell of coffee. I do. I love coffee. I love the taste of coffee. I love everything about it, except what how it makes me feel. I don't do it. There's no need to.

There really is no need to. It makes me incredibly happy. I very much like it, but I'm jealous. Coffee and moderate doses. It is kind of wonderful for for some. I mean, as long as it's not that peppermint white chocolate mocha from Starbucks. 74 grams of sugar, 520 calories. That's not coffee. That's dessert, guys.

That is a lot. 74 grams of sugar. 74 grams of sugar. That's your daily... 520 calories. Yeah. In your morning drink. That's a lot.

That's not coffee, guys. For reference, 400 milligrams of caffeine a day is considered safe. That's about four cups of brewed coffee. I'm surprised that it's four. Jim was drinking what? Six times that. That's not a habit. That's caffeinated immortality.

So I went to therapy because I was stuck in this human body as this demigod and I explained the whole thing to the therapist and they're like, you're going through what we call mania. And then, yeah, I took lithium for a couple of months and gone. It just shut off and I was just me again. That's like waking up from a dream, right? Lithium like the element, like the thing they use in batteries? Yeah, Liz, lithium is number three on the periodic table right after helium and right before beryllium in addition to powering your iPhone And stabilizing rocket fuel lithium is also prescribed as a mood stabilizer

Which is strange because it's usually the thing if it's in an iPhone Brings up your anxiety. So why not get the same thing to go down? It reduces the frequency and severity of manic episodes by calming down overactive neurons. Going into college, I went to a small state school, which is now UMass Dartmouth. Oh yes, this is the part where we give the name of the subject's college team sports mascot,

and Tyler usually has to cheer them on. You, Mass Dartmouth, go Corsairs. Corsairs? What the hell is a Corsair? It's a fancy way to say pirate. Arrr. Early on, I became engaged to a young woman and we lived together. I was very nervous about myself and relationships and I was like, I just got to get married and I we lived together. I was very nervous about myself and relationships and I was like, I just gotta get married and I'll feel better.

But at the same time, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I mean, everybody at that age is lost. Like, what am I gonna do? What's my first job? And there were these posters hung up around campus of these like really nice high-end, like $5 a poster. The print was amazing. They even had like shiny

gold on it. I had a dragon on it. It was like learn to meditate with the Boston Meditation Society. You know, I'm a nervous guy and maybe meditation would be a nice thing to do. Lenz had quite a sales pitch blanketing college campuses with posters in the early 80s, calling himself Atmananda or Rama. He promised a short path to enlightenment. Lenz claimed he could deliver in just a minute, quote, levels of awareness that would have taken hundreds of years to reach on your own. So my fiance and I, we go to one of these classes. There's probably 15 people there and it's run by these two guys and they were in suits. They were saying, we love meditation and we want to give back to the world for what it has done for us. It was actually meditation 101, right? You know, we did it for 15 minutes and then after that

they started talking about the history of meditation. You know, when you have a Jesus and a Muhammad and a Moses and a Buddha and they all sort of pray or meditate and they've done it arguably for multiple lifetimes and they become enlightened, right? When you see one of these enlightened beings, they actually glow gold, which is what you see in the paintings. You see this gold leaf around all of them. Buddha was Haike, the first influencer. Am I right?

Yeah, right. The gold leaf is iconic. It's giving main character energy for sure. He was like, now this is peak enlightenment, dead ass. He's so real for that. The Gucci glow up. Did you understand any of that? I didn't.

I didn't. This is the section of the show where Liz writes something in the modern vernacular to make me sound like an old man. Well, if you don't want to sound like an old man, don't use the words modern vernacular to make me sound like an old man. But if you don't want to sound like an old man, don't use the words modern vernacular. Dead ass. And so I came back because I really liked these guys and I wanted to learn more about meditation.

So we did it again. Yeah, it was always free. I probably went five times and I would stay after and ask them questions. My fiance and I are talking to them and we're asking them nerdy spiritual questions. And then they're like, hey, can we take you out to dinner? And we were like, we're starving college students.

So it was like, yes. So they brought us to Olive Garden. I remember this. And it was just sort of like, oh, carbs. Oh my god. And bread and pasta. And this is the part in the episode where the cult's recruiters invite our guests

to a five course meal at a four star Italian restaurant to sedate his critical thinking by using the age old brainwashing tool, bottomless salad and all you can eat breadsticks. You know, wait, that's never that's never happened on this show. You're right. I think this might be the first and only time someone has ever been love bombed at an Olive Garden. Oh, I have certainly love bombed some first dates at Olive Garden, I assure you. And they say, listen, we kind of feel like you're one of those people who resonates at a higher

level where you're spiritually advanced. We're chosen, we're special. Finally, somebody sees me for who I am. And so they were like, listen, so there's this guy who we study with and we do think he's one of these enlightened beings we've been talking about. And I was like, oh, is his name Rama? Cause I learned about this guy like four years ago

when I was a little cuckoo on the coffee. I was working at, it was a health food store and my boss in the produce department was actually also spiritual. And he was like, I've got this guy that I would love for you to go see. His name's Rama. And he gave me some tapes and I listened to the tapes. It is possible to tap into someone's life energy, just like you can lift out money from their wallet if they're not aware of it. Just like in the old stories, the vampire can drain blood from the victim and weaken them. And I was like, oh, this guy's really deep. And so, but I was 17 and on the day I was supposed to go with them to see him speak, they realized we don't bring in anybody under 18. So I was like, oh,

okay, whatever. So I was like a recruiter's wet dream. I went in prepped. I had an expectation that I wanted to see this guy. And they say, we would love to pay your way to go for this formal dinner in New York. And it's $500 a plate. But we make a ton of money as computer programmers and we want you to go. It's like we're giving back to him for giving us so much. OK. Little reminder, because it's been a while. Nothing in life is free.

Jim Piccarello thought he was signing up for meditation classes when he discovered Lens in 1992. I go to this dinner in Westchester, New York. Super fancy place. And everybody's in tuxes and gowns and so friendly. Totally normal for most meditation circles. You know, it's that love bombing where everybody's interested in you and they're doctors and lawyers and chiropractors and lots of computer

programmers. I was just like, God, everyone's computer programmers. That's really weird. You're not wrong, Jim. That is really weird. Yeah, it is. Especially in the 80s when this takes place. Not many computers. You know, I actually see my boss's girlfriend, who was also in the group. And she was like, oh, my God, they found you. You've had past lives and you couldn't even avoid coming into this group.

Right. And then all of a sudden this guy, Rama comes out and he's this tall white dude with curly blondish hair. He came out in ray bands and a leather jacket and it was like, who is, what is this? This isn't a guru. No, it's not. It's Maverick.

That's right Iceman, I am dangerous. And he comes up to a microphone and he's like, hey everybody how's it going? He had like a 10 or 15 minute monologue about the struggle of being spiritual in the modern world and yeah, he was really funny. I was laughing along with I think there were around 300 people, mostly followers of this guy Rama whose real name is Frederick Lenz. And he goes, all right everybody, especially if you're new, this is how we do it.

I'm gonna sit over here on these pillows. We're gonna turn the lights down, play some nice music. And you guys do your meditation, but just have a soft gaze in my direction. So they dim the lights, they turn on the music. I start breathing, I just let my eyes blur. And the whole room turns gold. and everyone in it is glowing gold as if they're inlaid with gold leaf. I got this rush of euphoria that I had to hold onto the table that I almost felt nauseous because of how overwhelming it was.

Where it was like, like it was bliss as they described and I'm like watching gold and I'm going like, oh my god, oh my god, you know. And then they turn on the light and it's over. And I'm just like looking around and the newbies are just kind of like, what the fuck just happened. Now there, that was the part of the episode where the guest gets wowed in the introductory meeting by the charismatic leader. So Jim left the meeting totally inspired, but he needs to know that it was real, that there was nothing else causing the experience that he'd just had. There was a part of me that was like, I need to prove it to people who say I'm on drugs. And I went to an event, I didn't shake anyone's hand, I didn't drink the water, I didn't

eat the food, didn't go near anyone, right? Just in case. And it was more vivid. I saw him change shape into different incarnations I saw him grow 20 feet tall like all this crap that you'd be like that's impossible. It's not impossible It's very possible and I'm like, oh Okay, here's a guy. He's like a Jesus or a Buddha and the whole room turned gold seeing his believing There's nothing else more important

than being with this guy, right? I'm in for life. For Jim, one miracle at one dinner with Lenz was all it took. I was pretty much into it at the beginning of the dinner. By the end of the dinner, I was willing to hang out with that group for pretty much the rest of my life. Imagine with me, it's the 1920s,

you wanna unwind after a long day so you slip into a smoky back room, jazz club, you toss a nickel on the bar and you ask the tea man for something mellow. If you're lucky, he'd hand you a rolled muggle or a gauge. And if you weren't, you'd end up with oregano and a run-in with a fuzz. But now there's no need to know a guy named Scoots in a pinstripe suit.

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and use our code INACULT to get 15% off, plus free shipping on orders over 100, and a free gift with your first order. Pretty cool. That's viihmp.com code INACUL-E-M-P.com code in a cult. So skip the speakeasy guys, pop down in digital nickel and enhance your everyday with Viya. That's Viya, Daddy-o. Had to make it weird at the end, didn't you Tyler?

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have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. So Jim came, he saw gold and he was in. Now, this is usually the time we tell you more about who the hell this quote charismatic leader is. And that's coming in just a moment. We decided to keep it a secret a bit while Jim gets further indoctrination.

When I went to these first five classes on how to meditate, I went into totally normal, healthy meditation and it felt good. The guys who were teaching the class are now my mentors, right? There were a few higher level mentors who had mystical Hindu names like Shakti or Bliss. I was like, I hope I get a name someday. And so I immediately started talking to my mentor going, tell me what to do. How do I meditate and get enlightenment, magical powers? He says it changed his life. In the beginning, it's sort of like you get this community feeling, we're all here and we're all doing this really

great spiritually ideal thing. I'm in a trusting space because they're friendly and they're love bombing and they're like, you're really smart and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But forget about trust. I mean, trust is out the window when you see someone glow gold. And former students say Frederick Lenz has turned that trust into a gold mine. How he does it is a whole other story.

The general idea was that you're one with the universe. You have all the answers. You have real magic powers. You can disappear. You can glow gold. There's evil in the world and we are good with magic powers. You can disappear. You can glow gold. There's evil in the world. And we are good with magic powers. And we can see things that other people can't see. If we see someone who's evil, we can tell they're evil and we can start psychically controlling them. And it was exciting. There's nothing more motivating than good versus evil.

And you're on the right side. I mean, it's better than coffee. But not matcha. Apparently, Liz, right? Right. Because matcha gives you actual calm, focused energy while coffee gives you a jittery caffeine crash. And did you know, Tyler, matcha has 137 times more of the antioxidant EGCG, which is the stuff that actually fights inflammation. So yeah, your coffee's cute and all, but my matcha's out here doing the real work.

So I would meditate every day. When I meditate every day, the whole time I was thinking about lens, right? Like if I'm reading a book, I'm doing it for lens. And now is the time we tell you about who this tall, awkward, blonde, fro of a self-proclaimed enlightenment being is. Yeah. Now, this time we'll do it with the help of some serious news media this dude was getting during his peak cult realm.

Lucky guy. In this lifetime, he is Dr. Frederick Lenz, an English PhD, author of Total Relaxation. At least he was until he became a mystic and teacher of Buddhism under the name Atmananda. So yeah, he was a white guy from California and he followed a guy who ran a cult before him named Sri Chinmoy. The Indian guru Sri Chinmoy, spiritual guide to the rich and famous. And it was a very similar sort of enlightened master, Buddhist practice, meditation, giving all your money and power and sex to this guy.

Until as Lenz tells it, the student of Chinmoy became the master. And he did the classic move where he said, a master or guru has been corrupted. I have taken on the mantle of the tradition. And so come with me. I'm starting our own group. In 1980, Lenz incorporated himself as Frederick P. Lenz, High Priest, the first diocese of

California of the Church of Atlantis. That's right, Atlantis sank into the ocean a few thousand years ago. Lenz claims he may have worked there as a computer programmer. Zen Master Rama, with his promise of spiritual fulfillment, material gain, his closest followers now number an estimated a thousand. People who truly speak the language of Frederick Lenz are in this room, his paying students, hundreds of well-dressed, college-educated men and women who know Lenz as Rama. Lenz says he was a Zen master in Japan. In the 1700s, he lived in a monastery in Tibet. The 1800s, India.

In our century, he's still on the pulpit with a highly evolved message. Meditation, Buddhism, computers, his biggest frustration with this lifetime, that he has been accused of leading a cult. Well, maybe don't convince people you're a reincarnated Zen master, set up a glorified spiritual pyramid scheme, drain your followers' bank accounts, and then slap a sticker on it called enlightenment. And maybe you wouldn't be accused of leading a cult.

It certainly does seem avoidable. We also just gave people the recipe of how to start a cult. Yeah, good. If they if they haven't learned it by now. Yeah, right. I think at some point, he had like five or six hundred people. Yeah, so there were people who had been students who had been around for a while, 15, 20 years.

They were probably in their 40s, lawyers, dentists, doctors, therapists. But the rest of us when we came in, you could only join up if you were under 29. They were hitting colleges pretty hard. Once a month, we would take a trip to New York to see him, either at a dinner or he would rent a giant theater. One weekend a month, somewhere in Westchester County, New York, Frederick Lenz delivers his messages to about 300 well-dressed men and women who pay lots of money to be here.

Lenz insists it's just like an ordinary graduate school. I'm an educator. That's primarily what I am, whether it's Buddhism, whether it's true music, whether it's teaching English or computer science. I like teaching people about things. Are you a cult? No, I'm Rama. I like teaching people about things. Are you a cult? No, I'm Rama. I'm a person.

The way he had us meditate was like at first, you know, it was that breathe, let thoughts float by. But with him, he's like, I'm giving you spiritual energy now, right? So you can take your meditation to a higher level. And so when you meditate and a thought comes by that's negative, you can just push that out. And now for the cult leader justification of why your own thoughts can't be trusted portion of the show.

If it's a negative thought about me or the group, you're picking up psychically on people within 100 miles of you thinking badly about us, you definitely have to push those thoughts out. So it starts becoming pre-thought where you can no longer think negative thoughts. You no longer can hear doubts. Newsweek magazine has called him Zen Master of PR, and the LA Weekly has dubbed him the cosmic seducer.

He is accused by ex-followers of sexual coercion, mind control, misrepresentation, and drug abuse. Like when people came to me and they were like, dude, I just read an article about your cult leader and he like molests his students and he gets millions of dollars from them. When they were talking to me, I would hear, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm static and I'd be sitting there going oh they've been brainwashed by the media I guess I can't be friends with them anymore huh this is feeling super familiar to something going on in our world today right now actually not gonna say it but it rhymes with Schmaffry Schmapshtein oh Tyler you've been

brainwashed by the media again I'm just over here hearing static. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhh uhhhhh uhhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uhhhh uh We don't have communes, we're not shaving our heads, we're not in turbines, we're going to regular jobs, we're making tons of money. So in the beginning, the newbies would see gold, right? And then we would have weekly meetings, like I was saying, and we would just talk to each other and be like, isn't it amazing, I love Rama so much. And people would get up in front of everyone and tell their story about what their experience was watching Lens. And they would say like, I saw him

turn into this like Salem witch from the 1800s where he must have been an incarnation back then. And then other people would say I saw him as like Ra, the living Egyptian god. Or I've heard people say that I saw him as an alien that's all they had to say my imagination would kick in with the rest. Turning rooms into gold and making his students see all kinds of strange things is central to the teachings of Frederick Lenz. Just listen to Jim Piccarello. I've seen him turn into a woman into a prince into this weird bug-like creature. I've seen him levitate and disappear except for a smile or his head.

I've seen him grow 30 feet in the desert, skate around on beams of light. You know, this is pretty impressive stuff. And now for the isolation justification portion of our program. You're a student and have been for 10,000 incarnations with me, Rama, and you're trying to get to enlightenment to better the planet and better yourself. The commoners, especially your family and bosses, they want to steal your energy from you because they vibrate at a lower level. You've got this huge battery full of Rama energy and they want to steal it. So the more you're around people, the harder it is to

gain enlightenment. You avoid people. Lenz's teachings insist you should insulate yourself from people with bad energy. Some people, they're like psychic sponges, and they just drain power from others constantly. They lower your awareness because they're at a lower level. And if you spend too much time with them, you get pulled down. It happens.

And now for the Liz Rance section of the show. I like to call it the Liz says out loud what every audience member is thinking section of our show. Call it what you'd like. But for real, can we just talk for a second? Like who cares if this dude is actually turning into a witch or an Egyptian god or an alien? Who the fuck cares? Like, isn't that what every magic show is?

Sleight of hand, misdirection, psychological suggestion? You know, I mean, people do care, right? But why? But why? This is what fascinates me about spiritual communities. And like, they're supposed to be about humility, right? Selflessness, dissolving of the ego. But in reality, they're just dripping in spiritual ego. And then the hierarchy begins like, I saw the alien, you didn't guess I'm more evolved than you. And I'm sitting here going like, what does that even mean? You know, like my cult did the same

thing. Like every spiritual cult does that. They make a massive fucking deal about things that in the grand scheme of life matter zero. Coldwich lives matter, Liz. No, but think about it, Tyler. What does it actually mean? Oh, you saw orbs, you saw energy. So what? That makes you a spiritual master because you meditated longer, you sat quietly longer than the

person next to you hallucinated harder. Like, that's not enlightenment. It's just more keeping up with the Johnses except this cul-de-sac has traded in their G wagons for incense and mala beads. It's not about oneness. It's not about transcendence about status because humans are humans, okay? And we are all desperate, desperate to just feel worthy. So we create hierarchies in whatever community we are in. So here it's who's the purest, who's vibrating the highest,

who's the most detached from their ego while being completely obsessed with proving it to everyone else. I mean, in the end, we're all just trying to feel special, right? And if it takes someone doing magic tricks, who says they're not magic tricks, that's what it is. I mean, every cult, every religion, every spiritual community, you kind of

just want someone to tell us you're chosen, you're above the noise, and will do anything to earn that pat on the head. Anyway, don't forget to rate, review and tell your friends that I'm the most enlightened podcaster you know. Manifest those five stars, Liz. Those golden room five stars. So, Jim, remember, guys, he was engaged at the time. She found it fascinating.

She wasn't as motivated like I am, but she went to all the meetings with me and all that. Eventually, we had a meeting with an upper-level mentor, and we went to this really expensive apartment and he was asking us about our relationship and then he would talk about spirituality and it was almost like getting a higher-level teaching. And then on the way home, I was like, should we break up? And she was like, that's so weird. I was just thinking the same thing. So we started just like laughing and talking about, oh, do you want the side table?

Because if you get the side table, I'd love the bookshelf. And, you know, all night long, we started just packing. It's just like, you're going to go and we'll find you a place over here. That's so exciting, you know. But this particular breakup wasn't exactly their idea. Never is. What I suspect was an indoctrination that night because part of the shtick was sex is a huge drain of energy. Long term relationships are a killer to Enlightenment energy.

So that was sort of like, oh my God, we'll be able to get that much more spiritually further on the path. If we're not together, we'll be right back. Hey, you know, it's a good idea. What's that? Wearing clothes. Oh, you say you mean like things to put over thy body. Yeah, exactly.

Although I feel like I should have thought of it before walking into the PTA meeting completely nude. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. You really cleared out that bag, so. Oh, dumb. I didn't write this. Continue.

Our listeners are dying to know how this ends. Tell me, where do you acquire these so-called clothes, Tyler? Continue. Our listeners are dying to know how this ends. They must know. And tell me, where do you acquire these so-called clothes, Tyler? Well, Liz, I'm glad you just happened to ask. Traditionally, people go to a store. They wait in line. They try on pants under the judgmental gaze of fluorescent lights. What is this, 1999? The last time I shopped at a store. I hate those lights.

And you drive home defeated. Yeah. Still petless. Yeah, that's me. Or, hear me out, you can try this thing. It's called Quince, and it's actually on computers. People have computers. I have a computer.

You have a computer. You can go to Quince on your computer. That's amazing. Guys, guess what? Quince is amazing. Yeah. I know Quince. We to Quince on your computer. That's amazing. Guys, guess what? Quince is amazing. Yeah. I know Quince.

We know Quince. I love Quince. They've actually nailed Luxe Essentials. I am actually, I am obsessed with everything on their website currently. Tons of cashmere cotton washable silk. I recently got this oversized Quince cashmere sweater. It is fantastic. So maybe you should get over your naked face Tyler because water is warm on the other side over here. Water is warm.

I did get a wedding ring from quince and that's true and it's the only thing I'm wearing. Unfortunately for me and their prices are fantastic. They're, I wouldn't say half or less than half the same of similar brands, but it's great premium fabrics, timeless pieces. Quince works directly with top artisans that cut out the middleman. They only partner with ethical factories, so you get quality, peace of mind. So clothes, it turns out they're worth having, especially when they're from Quince. So elevate your wardrobe essentials with Quince. Go to quince.com slash cult for free shipping and 365 day returns.

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash cult. Quince dot com slash cult. You gotta work on that jingle. Tyler, put on clothes, please. I'm wearing the ring. I mean, what else? It's a great ring. Okay, we are back.

So Jim, spiritual guru Frederick Lenz, aka Rama, was in many ways your classic cult leader. He was charismatic. He was confident. He was well-spoken. And of course, like many cult leaders before and after him, he fancied himself, guess what, guys? A rock star. Yes, it happens all the time with these cult leaders. But look, it's not just cult leaders.

There's actors, there's influencers, there's athletes. At some point, they get big enough, they all wanna start a band. This makes me question, are all rock stars just cult leaders in disguise? Yes, yes, unquestioned. They wanna be cult leaders as well. You've met enough of them. There are many of those that I think

could easily start a cult. Chris Robinson, being one, we all met him. There you go. Cult leader. Cult leader and waiting. Hell of a good guy. But he cult leader vibes. He could just lead you. He could. Yep. I'm speaking of Chris Robinson, the lead singer of the Black Crows, of course. But the difference is Rama, though. He had no musical talent. But guess what, guys? That didn't stop him from forming a new age band called Zazen.

Yeah, yeah. OK, so Rama's process, he didn't really compose music. He would literally... And this is what we're about to show you, or you're about to listen to it. So Rama's process, he didn't really have talent. He just stood next to someone with actual talent, like he is doing right here. Someone who's playing a guitar and he would tell them what to play. Rick Rubin has made a really lucrative career doing this, so maybe this isn't such a bad idea.

At least he didn't claim he wrote Bob Dylan's songs. That's true. That is true. That one takes the cake. Yeah. Oh, Warren Jeffs, you're a piece of shite. As for the music, Lenz's albums have not made the charts. Dad, let's go way up. He invited us to watch him compose with a member of Zazen, his band. Now let's go on the opposite way down.

How do you compose music? Feelings, emotions, places mostly. How do you write the actual music? Well the guys and I sit down and we write the music. And it get funky. Funky-er. He literally gave the direction to get funky and then get funkier. Funky-er.

Uh, hey bro, that's not composing. Just so we're aware. That's just- It's vibes. He's giving vibes and stupid ones at that Hey, get a little funkier right here get funkier Zazen Zazen available on was I in Colts greatest hits album of cult leaders. We're making that Back to Jim. Let's fast-forward six months. I'm totally in completely under mind control have no doubts Can't even doubt students say they are told by lens where to live how much to pay him

thousands of dollars per month in most cases and what kind of job to have and I had been working really hard in the organization actually Writing material that would be spread sent out to people as I meditated every day. I started running every day. I was suddenly an A-plus student in college. And I kept my room immaculate. Not only was it spotless, but I organized all my clothes in color coordination by rainbow, by type thing. It was like Marie Kondo before, you know, she existed. And yeah, I wasn't on coffee again. Drugs were against the rules. Alcohol was against the rules.

Enlightenment sounds really fun. Well, leave it to a cult leader to contradict while fucking everything. He was doing drugs, lots of LSD and things, that he was living a lavish lifestyle, spending all this money on his own personal life. At school, try to recruit friends. And I wasn't good at recruiting yet. I was given away the punchline too early. I was like, I'm doing this meditation thing and this guy, he glows gold because he's like an incarnation of Vishnu, the Hindu god. He's like really enlightened like Jesus, and like you should go and you'll see all this stuff.

And they'd be like, how much is the dinner? And was like my mentor is gonna pay for it and they're like, okay I'll go there was this one young woman and she was like What you're describing is insane and impossible But I'm gonna go to show you that it's insane and impossible. We went had dinner watched the whole show on the way out I was like, so what'd you think? And she was like, first, he is a sociopath. He has you under control. And she just knew. She was able to say everything that was going on

for the most part. But then she said, but how did he glow gold and change shape into this witch creature? And so that tells you how the control for hypnosis doesn't have to have anything to do with belief. It's just control. And now for the cult leader makes us feel even more special, part of our show.

So he would, from time to time, he would have a special empowerment session where he'd sit at the edge of the stage, and in a line we would walk by and we would bow and he would give us a gesture. And then we had this one ceremony, we were invited to become monks of his. And so we got in line and we bowed and he would put his thumb like on our third eye, right, which of course felt like it was on fire. That was something that was like empowering to us.

Now I'm monk, right? Yeah. So I'm walking around thinking I'm like I have virtual robes on and I'm like holy and stuff like that. But I'm celibate because monks are celibate. And I repeat, enlightenment sounds super fun. But again, leave it to a co-leader to yeah, you guys just fill in the rest. Of course, he's having sex with all of his followers. Of course, he is. Obviously.

These people are so predictable. According to former students, Lenz taught that going to bed with him was the only way for women to tap into good energy. All other men drained energy. So when Lenz called this woman to his bed at night 12 times, each time she'd thank him. What were you thanking him for? That he was raising my awareness, that he was getting rid of karma for me. And I'm sure he promised that his divine nectar was made of gold too. And that is a perfect segue into his obsession with computer programming of all things.

This was the core of his teachings, which is he's magical and light and emit energy. He's going to gift you that magical energy so you can meditate better. You're going to be able to focus. You're going to have a protective shell around you, all that stuff. Computer programming uses the same part of the brain, according to him, as meditation. If you meditate, you can go and program computers, which is like meditating all day and getting paid for it. Now, not to pop your golden aura balloon, bro, but programming and meditation don't use the same brain systems at all, actually.

Programming is cranking up your brain's problem solving and logic circuits, while meditation trains you to quiet those exact systems down. Sure, you can get into a flow state while coding, but flow isn't meditation. Flow is high performance focus. Meditation is about letting go of that mental effort. Now, Brahma, he's confusing focus with stillness, both important, but they're not the same thing. And the more money you make means the better you can program, which means that's how high you're getting into enlightenment. In the modern world, money equals spiritual advancement.

And there it is, the cult leader justification for why he needs so much fucking money, even though he's claimed he's basically a god and gods don't need money, so why would he? But he does, portion of our shall. Followed immediately by the, and this is why everyone gives their cult leader all their money segment. And we live simply as monks, so we're going to gift him the money that we make from his energy and he'll give us more energy and it's just this cycle. And since we're Buddhists and we live simply, we can give the money to him. So he'd give us more energy, so we can meditate better program, better make more money,

give the money to him and on and on and on. Why do people pay you so much money? Because they make a lot of money when they take my classes. I help make people rich. I was so excited to make money as being a what they call a lucrative computer programming career and I was nerdy enough where I could actually pick up computer programming pretty easy like I had done a little bit of it in high school. Once a week I would go up to Boston for a meeting and there were probably between 30 and 50 of us at any given time. Lawyers, dentists, doctors, therapists, they would quit to become a computer

programmer. Swear to God, swear to God. Yes, cults don't like stupid people. They don't do very good work. They want creative, idealistic, hard-working, intelligent people. So yeah, so I go to these classes, they teach us basic programming, they'd relate it to how that is connected with spirituality and enlightenment. All the students had their own companies where they would create these computer products and he was the CEO of all these companies. So if one of them hit, he was making money off of that. So let's get these smart, talented people to pay him to go to seminars and develop products for him that he owns the rights to.

Well, they think he knows something that they don't and they're willing to pay big bucks for it. That's an unbelievable scam, Stephen. He's good. We're so full of Rama's energy that anything we can put our mind to we can just do. We could just read the directions on how to do this thing. We'll absorb it and we'll just be able to do it. We'll make a lot of money. So what about his computer businesses? There is a product. It's called the CS8000 and the newer CS10000. It helps companies figure out how to set up large computer networks. It sells for about $10,000. And guess what? Lens is listed as the inventor. On the surface, my friends and family thought I

was nailing it. I was running, I was meditating, I was eating well, I was an A plus student, my room is clean, I was meditating, I was eating well, I was an A-plus student, my room is clean, I'm thinking about money and thinking about, you know, a career. Whereas before I was like, I don't care about money, I'll just live in an apartment forever, like with 10 other guys or whatever. Ironically enough, that's what would have happened to me if I stuck in the group. Sue O'Hearn, Jim's mom, told herself not to worry about this man. He's not in robes. He's not chanting.

He's not on the street corners asking for money. I just, that's all I knew what a cult was. How could this be a cult? By the time she was through though, Sue O'Hern says she knew a lot about cults and more than she ever wanted to know about the man called Rama. And then eventually we come to the part of the story that makes you suck in air through your teeth, drop your head in your hands, clench your jaws, and just go...

Fucking... CULLS. Hey everyone out there, do it with us. Ready? One, two, three. Fucking... CULLS. Feels good, doesn't it?

Good at that point I'm So excited about jumping in and not wasting time with college anymore halfway through the semester with five Credits to go before I graduate I quit college. I'm like, I'm done So that was a bet that was a bad idea Needless to say but at the time was very excited about it and the more Jim Piccarello thought about leaving lens the more he feared that There was something spiritually wrong with him. So he stayed he took away my identity

Everything that I was was replaced by a new identity. I was under direct mind control where my critical thinking was out the window and was replaced by a new identity. I was under direct mind control where my critical thinking was out the window. And there was a certain amount of time that was unknown that we were gonna do this thing that they had called the Exodus. It was something where the entire group from around the country would pick up

and disappear to a new location. It was a great time if you wanted to disappear, you could just disappear. So we'd all go to some location together and never contact anyone again and we'd be clean and we'd get a new soul. Lenz encouraged his students to electronically drop out of sight. Addresses become P.O. boxes, phones become voicemail or email. Why are so many of your students on P.O. boxes and voicemail?

Well, that's we live in an electronic medium and we're dealing with people who are in computer science and so that's mainly our medium of transmission is voicemail, pager. I've been online since 1990 and I don't have a PO box. Yeah, well, you know, we're technologists. Although some of the parents of some of your students have suggested that this keeps them from communicating with their children. Well, all they have to do is call their voicemail. I had friends who were like, I found a place, we can all rent it.

We'll go there, hit the streets, get a job, start paying for it. It'll be really inexpensive because there are like eight of us in this one place. And yeah, it was exciting. And we will be right back. Was I in a Cult is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Hey, you chose to hit play on this podcast today. Not an easy task. You had to hit that little triangle with your chubby little finger.

Difficult, but a smart choice. Yeah, Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer, registered, that allows you to compare your Progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Yeah. So give it a try with those chubby, fat little goofy fingers. After you're done, go to progressive.com. Don't finger shame me. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates not available in all states or

situations prices vary based on how you buy. So now Jim is preparing to go off the grid with this group indefinitely. It was the summertime, I'm living in my parents' house and I'm saving money because they don't know it, but I'm disappearing to New York City. So I need to save money for this. Jim Piccarello's mother says it took only a few months to figure out that someone was taking over her son's life. He influenced him on virtually everything he did

during the day, the way he dressed, the way he talked, the way he wore his hair, his exercise for the day, the food he ate during the day, the way his clothes were in a closet, by color, and socks by color. One of the things that we were scared of in this group were evil entities out in the world that are gonna suck away our energy,

like vampire-type entities. And the Cult Awareness Network was this organization that would convince your family that you were in a cult, they would take you off the street, lock you in a closet, and beat you until you can't even remember Rama's name. Students of Rama insist that all the horror stories about him are the product of a few disgruntled detractors

and an effort on the part of an organization called the Cult Awareness Network to discredit Rama. Joe Zimhart deprogrammed a number of Rama students. He says Rama and his following have all the earmarks of a cult. So I went to my mom and said, listen, there's this organization called the cult awareness network, they're going to call you.

So if you pick up and they're like, Hi, this is John from the cult awareness network, just hang up. The cult awareness network guys, by the way, has been bought out by Scientology. Right. Because so many people were being pulled out of Scientology because of the cult awareness network, that they bought the Awareness Network. And now, if you call the Cult Awareness Network, they will literally figure out a way to get you into Scientology. So Cult Awareness Network in the 80s, good. Cult Awareness Network now,

Scientology. Dad. Cult. Cult gateway. So she looked them up, called them up and said, my son is following this guy named Rama. Is that a cult? And they were like, yeah, it's definitely a cult. It fits the pattern of any typical cult in terms of the general principles with the charismatic leader, with the kind of untraditional doctrines.

And they were able to introduce my family to some ex-members. Jim Piccarello's mom was worried enough to contact another parent whose child also had become a student of Frederick Lenz. They gave me the scenario of what their child was living through. And that was? Horrible.

It turns out that my family's doing research. Are there any books on the topic? There's Combating Cult Mind Control by Stephen Hassan. And they look him up and he lives at the time in Newton, one town over from Wellesley where I lived. Now, this is the section of the episode where Stephen Hassan's book Combating Cult Mind Control helps the cult member. Or in this case, the family of the cult members see the truth about

cults. It is uncanny how many times this has happened on our show. Yeah, that book just keeps making a cameo, doesn't it? So Sue O'Hern hired a counselor to rescue her son. She says it took a team of family members, friends and a cult expert to break the hold Frederick Lenz had on Jim. They hire Steve. He's having meetings with them, teaching them okay and coordinating.

Okay, dad, on Tuesday, you're gonna walk up and you're gonna say this thing that's gonna break up the mind control by coming up with a story and just saying, yeah, this happened and then this happened. It was like, oh, of course that would have happened because where there's smoke, there's fire. So those little sayings would give my brain

critical thinking skills that I got rid of when I was meditating and pushing away negative thought. I lost critical thinking skills. My mom would be in charge of saying, I don't know if you knew this but your aunt was in a abusive relationship and she didn't feel like that she could talk to anybody. She didn't know everybody in the family would have been more than happy to talk to her and support her and it didn't even occur to her to ask. So just remember, if you're ever stuck in this sort of situation, just ask.

And people are there to help. I was like, OK, that's really good to know. So that goes in and starts breaking up the mind control. Because this is like different than what we're taught in a cult, which is your family doesn't trust you. They want you to be another person. Jim's mother says she saw her son slipping away. You know, you're really scared because now you don't know this person that's in your house.

So you remember the guy who was my boss and tried to recruit me? He was like a 24-year-old and I was like a 17-year-old. And he left the group because he didn't like how the women could have sex with Rama and other the mentors, but the men couldn't get these energy injections in the same way. And he was like, okay, I'm done. So they got in touch with him. He became part of the team and he would try to talk to me about what he learned in his experience while he was in it with a little more perspective. And like these were all like messages that effectively broke the mind control up. And it's been three weeks that they've been bombarding me with all

these casual things. But the timing isn't so great. Because remember, it's two weeks away from me disappearing forever. I was gonna be in a condo with 10 other guys all making a ton of money living on the floor, so he could get all the money so I could meet with him for an hour a month, right? And so the day before I was going camping with my dad, so I'm at work, I'm behind the counter at the deli, and I feel like there are two of me like a Venn diagram getting ripped apart. And like there's cult gym and regular gym. I felt like there were two me's battling. And there was this kid

who was like 19 and I was like, Hey man, can I just vent to you tonight? Like, I feel like I'm going crazy here. And I give him the whole spiel. I meditate every day and I do this, he goes cold, he gives us energy and we meditate and then the meditation becomes the computer programming and then we make a lot of money, but we're simple and we give him the money and he gives us more energy. And he was like, dude, you're in a spiritual pyramid scheme, which was very astute for him to say as a 19 year old, right? And it just knocked me over. So I went home and my brother had been up

just to make sure that I came home because I wasn't going camping the next day, I was having my intervention with Steve Hassan and all my friends and family in one room. And so I come back and I said, listen, I'm going to leave the group. I don't even know why. I don't know why. I know something's wrong. Something's dangerous. I got to get out of here. I'll talk more tomorrow. I just got to sleep. And he was like, yeah, that's cool. So I sleep and he immediately runs up and tells my mom. He's just like, he's quitting. He's quitting. She's like, oh my God, that's great. So the next morning I'm making breakfast and I turn and there's my friend bob standing in the middle of my living room and I turned and it's just

Like in the morning and he's just standing there. I was like, you're here to deprogram me. He's like, yes, I am I was like, all right, let's go. Let's do it So I walk out and my mom and stepdad are like they're washing the car and they're listening to music and I was just like Hey guys, bob's here to deprogram me. And they're like, we know we're all going to Bob's house right now. And I was like, of course, you know, so we get there and my friends are there. My dad and stepmom is there. My brother's there.

You know, I mean, it's just like everyone's there and two ex members and Steve. And I'm fine. I'm like, okay, nice to meet you. I don't think anyone's evil. I'm not nervous. So he was describing it. It wasn't that long and all of a sudden I popped out of it Just like and I did this and I was me again And it felt like I was in a year and a half long dream of someone else's dream like another person

and I was like you wouldn't believe the shit I believed. And Steve was like, like what? It's just like, how did that happen, you know? And so I was like, okay, he's a scam artist, he's using manipulation. How did I see the gold? Cause that's pretty convincing. And he was like, hypnosis, it's stage hypnosis.

And I said, prove it. Cause I knew he was like, hypnosis, it's stage hypnosis. And I said, prove it, because I knew he was a hypnotist. And so we dim the lights, right? And I sat on one couch, he was opposite me on another couch. We put on a little music, and I'm trying to listen to what he's saying. And all of a sudden, the whole room goes gold, brighter and more vivid than ever. And we turn on the lights, goes away. And I was like, what did you say to make me see that? He goes, I didn't say anything. I was mumbling, you did it.

You made the gold. It was all you. You were the one who got A pluses. You were the one who cleaned your room, went running, went meditating. You thought it was somebody else. It all came from you. And that was really empowering to hear.

And what about the visions, rooms turning to gold? It was all just parlor room hypnosis, Jim says today. Old tricks from a new age guru. There it is, hypnosis. Yep. Hypnosis isn't mind control, it's focused attention. You're not asleep, you're actually hyper aware and more open to suggestion. Your brain under hypnosis shifts into a very relaxed state, kind of like meditation meets improv.

Right. You're more likely to go along with what's suggested, right, yes and, especially if you trust the person guiding you. Functional MRI scans show that hypnosis changes the activity in key brain regions, like the anterior cingulate cortex and the default mode network.

Basically, it rewires your focus, it quiets self-criticism and amps up imagination. What is the anterior cingulate cortex and the default mode network? Smart people will understand, Liz. Don't you worry about it, little girl. You stick to your modern vernacular. It works best on people who are imaginative, trusting,

or used to going into altered states, like meditation, prayer, or, you know, like a really good yoga class. That is if your yoga teacher isn't Bikram, of course. Now under hypnosis, your brain can generate vivid imagery, even hallucinations, because suggestion hijacks your sensory expectations. You see what you expect to see.

That golden room Jim saw wasn't Rama's magic. It was Jim's brain doing exactly what it was told, which is kind of amazing and also very terrifying. In case anyone was remembering my fiance, about halfway through the first day, I told my stepfather, you got to go get her. He drove an hour, grabbed her, came back and she shared the rest of my intervention and popped out of it too, which was nice. That's a total aside. But so again, they had no idea that I was two weeks away from disappearing forever. So that was really fortunate for everyone, especially me.

And the healing process for me, it took a while. It took, I would say about six months. There was an ex-cult member support group where I would go once a week and we just talk about our experiences. I mean being replaced by somebody else's persona and then having that ripped away where I woke up and I was like, oh, the world isn't good and evil and I don't have magic powers.

I'm empty. I don't know who I am. So I had to rebuild me, try new things and like go into an improv group and try writing. And like, I've always wanted to do this or try this. I was a clean slate. And then in August of 1996, the Dateline show came out. Dateline NBC did what would be an Emmy award winning investigative report on him.

Frederick Lenz is an author, businessman, millionaire, and spiritual leader. But some claim cult leader is a more apt description. They made them look terrible. I think they played it like three times over a year. Cult leader is a more apt description. Hused of leading a cult. How could this be a cult? Cults don't like stupid people.

And less than two years later. And I was at my wedding and my friend Bob, who was in the living room saying, I'm here to deprogram him. And he was like, so did you hear about Rama? I was like, what's he up to now? And he's like, oh, he's dead. He committed suicide like two months ago. He overdosed and he was trying to overdose one of his closest female students. And she apparently escaped. He was obviously mentally unstable. Frederick Philip Lenz III. That was his problem to begin with.

Right. Yeah, I would have changed my name to Rama as well. He died on April 12th, 1998 at the age of 48. He drowned in Conscious Bay on Long Island in what authorities later ruled a suicide. Is that really called Conscious Bay? That's kind of ironic. Looks actually kind of lovely. It's a good place to it's a

good place to go. Reports indicate that he had taken a large dose of Valium before entering the water, possibly as part of a suicide pact with a female companion who did survive. And now time for the What is our guest doing now? Portion of our show. Well, Jim, today he's doing great. He's a screenwriter. So I am actually in development for a feature film.

It's a dark rom-com called The Cult of Us. I thought, well, wouldn't it be funny if two people in different cults fell in love as they tried to save each other? We plan on making it next year and raising all the money that we need to do, which is crazy. And remember Steve Hassan, the man who worked with Jim's family to get him out of the cult? He was on our show. Oh yeah, we had a Hassan episode. So we actually ended up being friends over 30 years.

And that's why a year and a half ago, he called me up. He's like, you want to run my company? I was like, yes, I do. So I'm operations and help with social media and stuff like that. And now for the summarization portion of our episode. And here's the thing about cults, companies, religions, even relationships, there will always be people

who want to sell you your own worth. Who want you to believe you need them to feel special. But you don't. You already got the gold, baby. You've always had the gold. You just need to remember you're the one who makes it. Now you go out there and you make the gold. Make that gold. go out there and you make the gold. Make that gold.

Thank you to Jim Piccirillo for sharing his story, his wisdom, and for proving that you can escape a mind controlled cult and still keep your sense of humor. Yep. And for reminding us that enlightenment isn't something you buy, well, it's something you build. Now, before we go, last week, we told the story of Georgina. A hell of an episode. She escaped from her polygamous community. And at the end of that episode, we asked people to possibly donate some, you know, money to her.

Yeah. And our wonderful listeners, well, they did. They really did. And she would like to thank everyone. Thank you guys. I just want to give a heartfelt thank you to all of you who have been And our wonderful listeners, well, they did. They really did. And she would like to thank everyone. Thank you guys. I just want to give a heartfelt thank you for anyone who reached out and blessed my

life with kind words or an inspirational thoughts. Thank you so much. We have the best listeners. Yeah, we really do. We really, you guys come to the table. You really do. And we thank you. You care and we care and you care and we care and I love you.

You love me. We're a happy family. Cult family. That's how cults get started. Yes, that is. This is a long game for us to bring you into a cult. And on that, just a reminder. You can help us make this podcast because trust me we we don't make gold we do not make the gold it's more like copper not yet but by

contributing to our patreon you really help us pay our huge staff of two and some of the wonderful people who just contributed to our patreon we are very thankful Andrea candle desert mountain shy town that's fantastic Jessica Schaeffer helia just kelia love that a lote rain what's a great name to a lote rain Wow Elizabeth Lairdeline Fisher, Claire Edelbeck, Megan Sonier, Carla Gibson. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, guys. Appreciate you. Now, if we could just only make them live like monks and disappear to sleep in a small apartment, make podcasts and then give us the money that they get. That would be real true devotion right there.

But in order to do that, we must first turn the room gold. And here is the audio version of turning the room gold. Grab a pillow, dim the lights, look at us with soft focus. Guys, guess what? We are going to be back next week with a workplace cult. And I am so very excited about this because this guy is a royal, royal douche hole. This is the cult of American apparel. Dove came to the store on the Upper West Side where I worked. There was a girl who worked in backstock.

She was still in high school, beautiful girl. And he immediately zeroed in on her. And he had a very specific tactic with young girls like that. I had watched him destroy women. Once he was done with you, it was like you were used Kleenex. He would dispose of you, you would get shipped off to a district far, far away and be given some menial project that would take you a year to complete. Was I an Occult? Is written, hosted, produced, late night,

sweated over by... While on vacation. Tyler, weird bug-like creature Mesa. And it is also sweated over and sarcasm on by Liz, Salem witch from the 1800s, Ayacuzzi. With all her divine nectar. And Rob, the raw, living Egyptian god, Para. Who is our producer and sound engineer and editor.

He does all the sound and makes us sound fantastic. And then of course there's our- And stupid. If we sound stupid it's Rob's fault too. It's on him. And then audio editor assistant is turns the room gold, Greta Stromquist. That she does. That Greta does turn our room gold.

Thank you everyone. Please have a great, great day. Thank you everyone. Please have a great, great day. Hi, I'm Jessi Prey. And I'm Andi Cassette. Welcome to Love Murder, where we unravel the darkest tales of romance turned deadly. Our episodes are long-form, narrative-driven, and deeply researched, perfect for the true crime aficionados seeking stories beyond the headlines. Like the chilling case of Blanche Taylor Moore,

the so-called Black Widow who left a trail of poisoned lovers. Or the shocking murders of Chad Shelton and Dwayne Johnson, where family ties masked a sinister plot. Subscribe to Love Murder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. My vengeance. Good Burger. This is what I call a fast food! Beverly Hills Cop, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and Julie and Julia. Bon appetit. All for free on your favorite devices. Pluto TV.

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