Watch What Crappens - Brian Moylan and The Real Story Behind the Real Housewives

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

*Also avail as video on Crappens On Demand http://bit.ly/crappensvideo* Author and Real Housewives Historian Dame Brian Moylan joins us for a chat about his new book The Housewives: The Real Story Behind The Real Housewives. Find it and all of our premium bonus episodes at https://patreon.com/watchwhatcrappensOur Patreon Extras: https://patreon.com/watchwhatcrappensSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to watch what crap ends at free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Get ready for a double load of Queen of Hearts. It's me, Jujubee, and I return to guide sexy singles through some ronchy blind dates. Cameras off. Voice only. Launching during pride. Queen of Hearts takes Miami by storm, with Daeders' Cuppe from Tampa Bayes, Just Chaz and Brittany Brave to name a few. Follow Queen of Hearts on Amazon Music or around and get this one. How things might be so much that it might be. Well, hello and welcome to Watch With Crappin'. Some podcasts for all that crap, which is glad to talk about on Yo Bravs.

I'm Ronnie and that's been over there, how'd be in? Hey Ronnie, what's up? If you are on crap and it's on demand, then you're getting a very special Memorial Day episode. And you already know who we're with we are with Dave Brian Moilin Hello Brian Hello, how's it going guys? Oh, that's up Brian the housewives the real story behind the real housewives in which Brian Moilin calls me a liar

Probably multiple times I liar probably multiple times. I did not call you a liar even once. I don't think police. Evander probably Lisa Vanderpump. I probably call Lisa Vanderpump a liar multiple times. Apparently, some fans have told me that on the audio book, I mispronounced your last names. And if I did that, I apologize, but I'm not sure I did. Listen, I'm loving these. I'm used to my name being mispronounced your last names. And if I did that, I apologize. But I'm sure I did. Listen, I'm loving these. I'm used to my name being mispronounced. Okay. I've been called Rhonda Kazam, most of my life.

Yeah, my last name's always, always messed up. So don't even worry about it. It's really like, it's just, you know, it's just an honor to be part of this book. It's honor to be mentioned. I'm so excited. We just got, I just got my copy yesterday. So I haven't had a chance to dive into it yet. But we're so excited. We're so proud of you. First of all, for those who don't know Brian, Brian is just in a wonderful amazing writer who writes for Vulture amongst other places. You write actually for several different outlets and you've just written this book, The Housewives, the real story behind the real housewives, by Brian Moilin himself.

Yay! What is this? What tell us about what this book is? I mean, this sort of, it's kind of funny. This is like, sounds so infomersially, but like, we're really excited to talk about all this stuff. Yeah. So it's basically like the history of housewives

and how it got started and like the history of Bravo and the history of reality television is so popperous and how that created housewives so like how it all got made and then how it does get made like all the behind the scenes, all the different roles, I have the editing process, works casting, you know, who pays for stuff,

how everybody makes money blah, blah, blah. And then I talk about like the fan cultures and people like ourselves who have glommed onto this for our livelihoods and the fan cultures that surround it and why we watch it and what it says about us that we are so obsessed with the housewives. So it's kind of like a 360 view of the real housewives phenomenon. Yeah, it is. And it's cool to see who you got to talk to you because the last time we actually saw you in person was in New York at the Regency. And you were talking about how you were writing this book. What kind of, what kind of, I don't know how much we can go into here in a public forum.

So I'll just let you go as far as you want. But what kind of stumbling blocks with Bravo did you get on this book? Because so I always had an authorized. I was expecting a big unauthorized author. I was expecting that. I mean, essentially, yes. But so when I saw you at the Regency, I was actually having drinks with somebody who then worked in Bravo PR to say, Hey, I'm working on this book

Because I always had a good relationship. So I wanted to let them know before they found out, you know, somewhere else and So they're like, oh, maybe we should partner. So I talked to them about partnering and they said like we'll give you all the interviews You want will help you promote it. We'll have you on watch what happens live This was before the first Bravo Con. So they were like, we can do a big thing at Bravo Con, you know, whatever, but we want 10% of the book sales and complete editorial control. And my editor was like, oh, hell no, you crazy.

So in response, and as we were talking about this, Bravo asked for a list of people that I would like to interview, which I, in good faith gave to them, they then interviewed, not just everyone on the list, but every real housewife, every producer, everyone who's ever worked on the show and said, do not talk to this guy. And so, yeah, so they were not very helpful with it. And even as I was working on the book,

like the New York Times asked me to do a story about how shows were dealing with reunion specials during COVID. And so I said, hey, I have this weird situation with Bravo. Would you like just see if they want a cooperate? Because of course they wanted to talk about housewives reunions. And so my editor from the times called them and they were like, oh, if Brian's writing the story, we're not participating.

And then when Brian's talking about... Your time. Then when... You're talking about the New York Times, exactly, because a little of me. And so then when Bravo Con came around, my editor at Vulture emailed Bravo and was like, hey, we want to have Brian vulture emailed bravo was like hey

We want to have Brian cover it and bravo was like Brian is not welcome here He cannot cover it and so I went to I bought tickets to bravo con and I went and disguise I saw your disguise on Instagram and I was cracking up that it actually does not look like you It's weird. It's I guess I mean, I don't want to compare you to Resa, but I guess you're you're wreck. I would recognize you most with that mustache and a kil't, you know, that is 100% it. I mean, I have an iconic look like Lisa Rennie's hair. And so, you know, yeah. So when I shaved it, but then of course, I ran into like every podcaster, every meme account

person that I know and they were all like, Brian, so it wasn't like so good of a disguise, but I mean, it was going to kick you out. I wouldn't have noticed. Yeah, they didn't come like kick you out there, right? Like big body. No, I don't think that they saw me, you know, whatever. And I was trying to keep kind of a low profile. But then when they announced BravoCon last week

or the week before, I got an email from the head of BravoPR saying, at least you won't have to sneak in this year. So I don't know if that's like, does that mean you're allowed? Or is it more just like we have boosted security? So don't even bother. Right. Or like shade or being like, I've read the book and I know what you did or what.

I don't know. So, um, yeah, I just imagine Miranda Richardson. I just have like a vision of Miranda Richardson from the crying game, just like scanning the crowd and just like looking to assassinate you and just like, she out of the venue. That's kind of what it felt like. Like I was always on the run from the law, you know, hiding in the hiding from not only Bravo PR,

but also Pepsi Rose, which I wasn't going to put it by mouth at all. Oh gosh, I forgot about that. Well, it's actually a super interest. I'm a bit, we got it yesterday, so I haven't read the whole thing. I'm probably about halfway through because I Am I did just open it and just start devouring it. It's really good and it's interesting reading all the inside stuff about Bravo because it Explains a lot of their behavior. You know like stuff that you're saying

We haven't really dealt with them that much at all except to be like can we have screeners or stuff like that and they're so much at all, except to be like, can we have screeners or stuff like that? And they're so secretive and weird. Or then we'll find out from people like, no, we're not allowed to talk to. We're like, they even know who we are. Like how did that happen? It's bizarre to me that there's such a secret world. But then reading, reading this, you explain very well how secretive they are. And how many notes they actually give for all of these shows and like, how you have to be a total insider to even work there to even get a job there, but you have to work there before to get a job there. I mean, it's very like Queen of England type shit. You even said the Queen of England at one point. You even compared it to that that one. I can pair Indy Cohen to the Queen of England.

But that's some more. So is it basically like you work your way up to being able to be on a real house, I've show on the back end on the on post production or or just on the job ads for Bravo shows. It all says previous Bravo experience required, but it's that catch 22 like you can't get Bravo experience until you've had Bravo experience. And so, you know, some people said like like, you have to wait until they're really desperate or you have like a bunch of people vouching for you to like get on the show.

But then once people got on the shows, they stand on the shows because they say Bravo has the most work of anybody. It's the best paid. They make a ton of episodes. So it's like a big chunk of your year's work because all the people that work on the shows are freelancers.

And so they love working from Bravo and then they go from like, not just all the people that work on the shows are freelancers. So they love working from Bravo, and then they go from like, not just all the different housewives shows, because most of the post-production for all the shows, even though made by different companies, is all in LA. So they'll go from like, you know, housewives to Southern Charm, and then to Below Deck, and whatever. And, you know, Bravo is such the standard in the reality television arts and sciences that even other channels will be like Bravo experience preferred. Like they want you to have been through that sort of mill of Bravo.

But the payoff for that steady work and the good pay and the good craft services and evolution media is that apparently Bravo gives the meanest notes. And there's not just a ton of them, but they're like really snarky. Like the tone is not great. I talked to both people at Bravo and people at the production companies who said sometimes they would rewrite the notes before giving them to the people so they

wouldn't get mad. And I talked to somebody who worked on an episode. We would all know and has some iconic moment. And I can't divulge what it is because it would give this person's identity away. But he was like, even during this episode, they were giving like all these notes and saying like, did a monkey edit this?

Like, just like tearing it apart. And I mean, I feel like sleep on this. So it's cracking up to that. Yeah, like literally like tearing it apart. And I mean, with editor sleep on this, I was cracking up to that. Yeah, like literally like shit like that. And you know, the irony is like, a thank God for that because it makes house. I wanted this,

but be like it doesn't sound like a great kind of working environment. Yeah, we once met up. We once met someone who worked at a production company that deals with Bravo. And he said, the amount of notes that come down the line from Bravo about every single episode and every single moment. They want to know why there is that cutaway shot. Every single piece of footage gets a note,

which sounds totally exhausting, but I actually feel like we totally benefit from that because whenever you look at a show on E or some like like TLC, you're just like who was making this shit. And so like it's probably hell for them, but I feel like the audience really benefits. If Bravo was making 90-day fiance, I would watch it, but I just it's like I find it to be unwatchable because it's like so long and so repetitive and needs to be tight enough. And yeah, I'm just like used to that bravo weeness of it all.

But I guess one of their other concerns is they say they get a lot of notes from most places. That's very common. It's the tone and also that different executives watch it at different times. And so the lowest executive will say, do this. And then they do that. And then the second executive is, why did you do that?

And then they're like, well, because the last person told us to. And so they're just like going back and forth and correcting all the mistakes that all the different executives have until you get to the top. And then it's like, that's what goes. And then Sherri Levine comes in.

I mean, that was written, I mean, yeah, after reading that, I really wanted just a whole, a whole book about Sherry Levine comes in. I mean, that was written. I mean, yeah, after reading that, I really wanted just a whole book about Sherry Levine because she really sounds like a real groin naster. I don't even know what to say. I don't wanna say ballbuster because it's everybody, but man, she sounds scary as hell. It's like it goes through all of these people.

They all do these notes. Then the next round of notes. Then then finally, they send it to her and she's like, you're all done, you're all done. You're all stuck. Here's how it goes. Yeah, well, and that's what's really interesting is that, you know, Bravo, the Bravo we know today was started by Lawrence Alasnick, who is like a great TV executive. And she's now like a consultant and Andy Cohen worked for her. And then there was this woman, Francis Barich, who's been at Bravo since like the 90s before it was like anything. And she's like slowly,

steadily worked her way up to the head of all of NBC Universal's Lifetime channels. And it's like, you hear about Lawrence Lastic, you hear about Andy, you hear about Sherri Levine. And that Francis Barich has just been like the quiet assassin the whole time, just like working our way up the ladder to like Queen of the realm. And so yeah, I'd be fascinated to hear more about her. She's not doing profiles for the New York Times like Andy is. So I remember one time being on JetBlue and I don't know if JetBlue still has this, but they just have like New York Times

television and it'd be like a five minute panel of people talking about who knows what and the flight that I was on, you know, for each one of those queer eye guys, they had sort of like programs to match that. But I feel like Bravo's kind of got no way from that a little bit, you know, like 100%. Totally. Well, and I think it was like housewives because you can see how they totally did that. It's like they had top chef and food

and they had fashion and Rachel's Oak project and project runway and all that stuff and then you know Housewives kind of snuck in and like Yeah, it was like being Bobby Brown and Housewives and But now it's like when you think about all the shows on Bravo, it's like below deck is housewives on a boat. Shaw's is housewives with Persians, you know, summer houses, housewives in a summer house. So I mean, they do seem to try to make certain things pop like it's like they they had their home by Bravo thing going on. And they still have backyard envy that they they sort of like throw at us randomly every now and then. So sometimes I feel like they're

trying to kind of go back into that space a little bit, but I mean at this point it's just like, it's like Housewives 24, 7 all time. Totally. And I think that they've been trying, we've seen for years like that home by Bravo thing when they did original programming. You know, I think they're trying to diversify, but other than below deck, they haven't had like a new big hit in a while. Well, yeah, I remember those two years, it was like two solid years. They would green light like hundreds of pile.

I mean, it was so many pilots and they would just be through the wall. And when below deck actually was the one to hit, I was so shocked. I was like, be three Asian and the wall. And when below deck actually was the one to hit, I was so shocked. I was like, who wants to watch this? And we love it now, of course. But at the time, it's like so shocking to see what sticks. And then they did the home thing. And this year, it looks like they're going to do some kind of a dating. I guess like a bachelor type. That's what I'm going to start doing like 11 dating. And that's their new thing to try and break out, which I mean, okay, but it's good luck.

Have a day tried that before and it did not go well. Yeah, relationship and before that even that Courtney does Dallas or whatever that was. Or actually Bravo was home to the like the first gay, like sort of gay dating show, right? What was the name of that one? Why meets boy? Why meets boy?

I talk about it in the book, because it was produced by evolution media that now makes Orange County Beverly Hills, Vanderpump Rules, botched like all these housewives shows. Yeah, it's pretty cool reading about all those different production companies and which ones are the most hands-on and which ones are the most organic, like you talk about evolution,

kind of shockingly being the most organic, although if you look shockingly just because you would think something like Beverly Hills seems like it would be the most produced, at least to me. Yeah. But then reading your take or what you found out that it's actually not, it's one of the most produced at least to me. Yeah. But then reading your take or what you found out that it's actually not, it's one of the most organic. Yeah. Well, and I think that accounts for why Beverly Hills sometimes gets stuck in its own rot for like seasons on end. And I think that

the truly original, which makes Atlanta and Potomac is a lot more hands-on in the scene, and they'll kind of like, if they're at a dinner party, they'll take Cynthia out and be like, why aren't you asking her more questions? Why aren't you talking about this, whatever, and try to make the scene pop a little bit more? And that doesn't happen in Beverly Hills,

and I think that accounts for why they sometimes just go on and on and on about the same stuff, or don't want to get like down into the dirt like some of the other housewives are willing to. Do you think it's a producers or do you think some of it is the fact that and Beverly Hills, these are various women who are still trying, I'm not saying that in a pejorative way or like to be like shady, but they're still trying to have a career outside of the show like on soap operas or music and so they're protecting their rights. I Know I think it's definitely some of each I think that you know the producers could possibly push them harder But I think you're right. They're obviously the most image conscious of the women and I think

Yeah, and and I think that because all of the women are like that, they allow each other to behave like that. Like if you put Kenya more in that mix, Kenya more is going to bring up your shit and like call you on it. And, you know, but none of the women on Beverly Hills will. But I'm hoping that a crystal minkoff is going to come in there and be like, um, guys, let's talk about the shit because otherwise it's getting like it. Yeah, it's like it. I think she was a really good addition. She's going to be, uh, she's going to be a tender partner on that. So, uh, it was interesting how, uh, you were talking about what shows are written, you know, the, the whole question of, is this written because people say, oh, these are just stories. Everything's written. And I really found that interesting how you were

saying, um, that it's not technically written like they'll plan things. But if anyone's really guilty of writing it, it's the actual women themselves on the shows, which I guess we kind of knew, but it's fascinating because I did think it was more structured than that. Well, and I think that fans often want to see all these invisible puppet strings. And it's like, oh, Bravo made the trace Amiga's be friends again because that's going to ruin the show. Or, you know, Andy says that they should do this or, you know, whatever. But really, I think that the women have internalized that sort of production mentality almost.

And the calls are coming from inside the house. And it's like they all want to stay on the show They all want to get another season and so they're doing what they think they need to do in order for that to happen I think a lot of times that's good But a lot of times when you see someone like Lisa Vanderpump who thinks she knows how to produce a show But then is doing it badly and then the women turn on her, you know, it becomes kind of an issue. Yeah, I wonder what producers can do. I don't know if you addressed this in the book at all, but you know, something that seems to be coming up more and more is this thing where the

cast will decide that they're not going to shoot with someone, like they're going to ice them out or someone will sort of draw that line in the sand, which I hate when that happens, because to me, that's not the spirit of the show. And you're also, it's like, they're taking the production into their own hands and they're actually split. They're the talent and they're not the storytellers in that way.

And it feels like that's happening more and more, or maybe I'm just like responding to it more and more. Was that something that you were you encountered when talking to some of these production companies and how did you do it? So I talked to some producers and they said that in the past, every episode they have to have a tent pole event, which is something that all the women are gonna go to,

whether it's a dinner, a party, a trip to an Apple orchard, so Sonya can pee in the wild, you know, like whatever it might be, and that they would require all the women to be there and they were like contractual obligators to go. But now Bravo is pushing them more to be like, well, if she wouldn't naturally be invited, then she doesn't have to be invited. Which I get because it's like, yeah, if you hate this person, why are you going to have her over your house? But then also it creates this thing where the women can just decide like who's on the show and who's not. And, but I think this has been happening since the show started

and I talked to somebody who worked on the early seasons of real houses of New York. And I think what we missed was that Bethany was trying to ice out Kelly Benzimone. And that's what the I'm up here you're down here was about. It wasn't about, you know, we all interpreted it as Kelly thinks she's better than Bethany, but it was really because Bethany was trying to get

them all to not film with Kelly. And Kelly was frustrated with that and that's how she kind of voiced her frustration about it. And so I think that that's definitely been something that's happening. I think we're now just savvier to it and seeing it kind of happen more and more. But yeah, I also agree with you. It's like you bitches need to sit down with Monique and talk about this because that's your job.

And you can't just be all like Monique, not invited to anything because then it's like, well, who cares? Right. Yeah. So there's been kind of a shifting of the shows just because people have been on there for a decade. So it's starting to have like a huge slaughter last year, where, you know, the record amount of housewives were fired or quit or whatever. And now we're seeing shows like Atlanta, which was always leading by far in the rating slipping quite a bit. And there's seasons have been boring. I mean, they've been slow compared because that's that's the best one. I mean, that's the most hilarious the showrunners when he had to leave after the whole

Fadra thing and the new showrunners came in. Do you think it was a change of style where they weren't intervening as much and like maybe, you know, pushing them to get in these arguments? Like how much do you think the showrunners are at fault for that and how production in general? And how much do you think it's just, we need refreshes of housewives. I think we need some refreshes of housewives. I have been blaming some of the recent stuff on COVID. Yeah, I agree. Cause it feels like it Lance had only had like five women and they just introduced Drew and there were those like, you know, Toya and Fallon

and whatever kicking around the edges. But I feel like they're averse to introducing a lot of new women, other than the women of color that they added to some of the shows, which they need to do anyway. And so I just think that some of that is them wanting to keep things the same because of COVID. Like I feel like we wouldn't have had the same exact cast of New Jersey three seasons in a row if they weren't worried about finding and replacing women while productions kind of crazy. New Jersey, but I'm sorry, you finish your point.

I do have to say something I want to say about New Jersey though. But I do think that, you know, the funny thing is that there are different production companies that do things different ways, but everybody who works for this production company are freelancers. So it's like, you could be a showrunner on Atlanta for one production company, and then you could be a showrunner on Dallas for a different production company, and they're gonna tell you to do things the different way.

But then Bravo is the one who's really coaching and turning these things all into housewives and making them all look the same. So I think if anything that has to do with, you know, things getting boring, whatever, it's probably on Bravo, because Bravo is also the one in charge essentially of the final decisions of casting.

And I think that that more than anything has to do with the direction of how the shows are going. It's so interesting though that if it's, you know, I totally get that. I mean, Bravo is the one sending all these notes and is viewing everything with all these eyes and sort of like forcing their vision, but it's sort of, it's always surprising to me how they can have one show just be firing on all cylinders one season. And then you can have a legacy show like Atlanta be kind of dull for the past three seasons, if you ask me.

And I think, I personally think there's some of it has to do with cast members really not giving themselves over to the show and to the experience. Because what I was gonna say about New Jersey is, I agree that with COVID, I think it has made it hard on production, it's probably made it hard to create narrative on their end. But also, New Jersey had a great season and they were in COVID. I mean, it was New Jersey

too. So, you know, there was a clear. They do throw more cheese in general. So, we got to go. But they, they were sort of like all in, I feel like with Jersey, they are all in and they, they just, I don't feel like they have they're really ever trying to protect too much of an image. Sometimes Melissa Gorgah a little bit. Whereas I feel like with Atlanta recent season, one thing that happened, it was such a small thing, but to me it really represented so much was that they went on that awful New Orleans trip and Portia left in the middle of the night. And I thought that rep that to me like you should just be there like you should be there even if

you're having a miserable time and that to me speaks to maybe why Atlanta is not like as strong as they used to be. Well and they all seemed like they didn't want to be well it's because you had Nene Leaks being like I'm bigger than the show I'm better than the show I don't want to be here and being being miserable. Then you had Porsche be like showing up three hours late when she did show up, like not wanting to be there. And I think that a lot of these women do get kind of complacent. And I think that it was pretty big for Bravo to fire Vicki to for Neenie to leave. Yes.

And to see some of those like bigger people um be held accountable because I think that someone like Porsche or Kenya who also didn't seem to have a heart in it this season needs that shot across the bow that like girl if you don't step it up you're out of here. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that was I think it's I agree I think the firings are really really good to show the talent that they're not bigger than the show Yeah, and I think that's what everybody needs to realize is that like none of you is bigger than the enterprise and And so and once they start once it gets to this is my show. This is my show then it's like sorry You got to go it's time for commercial. It's time for a crap and it's commercial. Celebrity beef, you never know if you're just going to end up on TMZ or trending on Twitter or in court.

I'm Matt Bellasife. And I'm Sydney Battle and we're the host of Wundery's new podcast, Dis and Tell. Each episode explores a different iconic celebrity feud, from the build-up, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? We're starting off with a pretty messy love triangle between Selena Gomez and Justin and Haley Bieber, a seemingly innocent TikTok of Selena talking about her laminated eyebrows. It's snowballed into a full-blown alleged feud. But it doesn't seem like fans are letting up anytime soon. Despite both Selena and the

Bieber's making public statements denying any bad blood. How much of this is teen jealousy and lovers quarreling, and how much of it is a carefully crafted narrative designed to sell albums? Follow this and tell wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder Yeah. Yeah, dealing with all those egos. Another interesting point you made in it was that Bravo isn't trying to bring anybody down. Like, a lot of you were talking about the bitch at it or the villain at it and how every...

The audience just assumes, oh, they're getting the bitch at it this season. It's their time to go down. And you're saying, no, they actually get notes. Like, don't make them look that bad. I mean, like, don't, don't make them look bad. We want people to actually like them. And you were talking about people being friends with producers because over the years, you just get, you get intertwined. You know, so Kyle is best friends with one of the producers and are they may be

going to easy on Kyle because of that and it's just after so long everything just get so Intwined but that bravo is actually not give they're actually doing them a favor by not giving them a bitch at it. Yeah, and if anything Yeah, they're making them look like better or nicer because well, and it's so different from so many other reality shows where like on the bachelor or like survivor, they can just like totally dick these people over like do whatever they want to give them these crazy edits because it's like you're on once and then you're gone forever. But like if you're going to be on season after season, like they need the women to trust them and and keep them on their side. And so if they're making them look bad all the time or doing underhanded stuff,

then you're gonna lose the show. So I think with housewives, it's a much more delicate balance. And yeah. You know, one thing I've noticed popping up also on recent seasons, you know, over the past few years, the fourth wall has been coming down quite a bit,

which has been really cool. And but one argument that I feel like it's popping up more and more and probably was always there, but it wasn't maybe so in our faces is sometimes I get the sense from Bravo cast members that they get into fights because one person feels like they are sharing so much of their life and another person isn't.

And my question is, how much do you think a someone on Bravo is obligated to be an open book or do you think they're allowed to share certain things and keep other things for themselves? I used to think like, oh, you have to tell like everything to the camera, you know, but I do think that there is a certain level of like if you wanna keep this thing private, like you can keep this thing private.

And I felt a little bit like that with Denise and Brandy Glandbell because like even though Brandy used to be on the show, it's like Denise had an affair with her and who's business is it of ours. If she had slept with Lisa Rinna, then it's all of our business. Then bringing in this old cast member

to talk about how she had an affair with Denise and then all the women har of harping on it. It's like, you know, why do we care so much? I mean, I felt like Denise was already sharing enough about her life and her kids and Charlie Sheen and whatever, that then you kind of got into that brandy, glendville stuff. So I do think that there are some things that aren't

necessarily a part of the show that are personal, that the women should be able to keep private. But that said, I also, I don't write, talk about this in the book, but I've been talking about this in my recaps lately. And I have what I call the unifying theory of late stage house wifeery, which is that all fights on the show are about the show.

And so it's like, Dorenda's mad at Tinsley, because Tinsley doesn't really live in New York and won't talk about the show. And so it's like, Dorenda's mad at Tinsley because Tinsley doesn't really live in New York and won't talk about a relationship. Dorenda's mad about at Ramona because she made her go to New Jersey so she could get a free party. And it's like, we even saw in last night's real houses of New York, like Leah's bringing up this shit about

Heather that she had like no involvement in. But she thinks she has some stake in the game and it's like so all these fights aren't aren't like interpersonal fights between friends, they're like workplace arguments among co workers. I think that when it gets to that point and Bravo, will acknowledge it so far, but not entirely, that there's a weird gulf that we see that I don't find to enjoyable. But I think the audience is savvy. I think the audience is also sensitive, especially with D'Aurinda and Tinsley. The audience clearly knew what that was about. Absolutely, yes.

Well, not, well, kind of, but then that was still a huge revelation at the reunion. When we got, you know, the whole loan, you asked him to borrow money, you asked your boyfriend asked my boyfriend for money. And that was what was making Durinda so crazy. That's true. So she felt so stupid over that whole thing that she was losing her fucking mind. And that was a huge revelation. And I'm always, I love when that stuff happens because I'm always shocked that I can

still be shocked at these shows. I mean, we, we talk about them every single day. And when you can get me like, Exactly. Yes. And it's almost like I feel like, you know, I think Bravo is getting further and further with that fourth wall stuff, but there, there's also a point where they're really worried. And like, and it's so funny to me that they will let the women talk as much shit as they want about each other.

But as soon as you start like, mentioning production or how the shows get made or bravo, they get really dicey. And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- And I think that they- 13 seasons at this point, like, even if it's a coworker relationship, it's a real relationship with the dynamic. But I think that when it's just people who are coworkers, like Kenya and Porsche and Cynthia and Candy and it's like, we don't really want to hang out with us, but the show is making us. That's when things get a little stale. Like I think there do need, there does need to be some sort of affection or camaraderie

there. They do need there does need to be some sort of affection or camaraderie there like you see with like D so Rina and Erica Jane who met on the show, but now seem to have a real affinity for each other Well, I call that a real I would call that a real Alliance with those two because those two that is like classic housewives where Lisa Rinna was really just being a dick to Erica, the whole first year that they were together, right? Well, at least most of that year, she was like slut-shaming Erin doing all that stuff. Like the seaworth,

where you know, fast-forward to this, she's like, I'm a seaworth. You know, like really embracing Erica, or like down to copying Erica with the wigs and the this and then that. And it really, those two are definitely a classic housewives of liars where they're just like listen bitch. All right, we're friends now, you know, fuck with me.

Fuck with you. All right. But I, you know, I do think Brian, you're so right about, you know, some of these people, they do have, they've actually created real friendships because I was just watching Real Housewives of New York. And I was watching the scene in the limo where LeWand and Sonia are talking and Sonia was saying that Tom was her man first and was like, oh, well, he was your fuck first, but he married me. And I was just like laughing because this conversation

they were having was, it wasn't just like a reality show scene. Like these are two people who've known each other and have a very tangled past. And to me, that's like great TV. Like I actually love watching that. And I feel like, especially now with New York, now that they've, now they've been sort of closer together

at Ramona's house. Like the nice cities of the first two episodes have given way to now like the real, you know, underlying issues are coming out. And I love that because that feels very real to me. And it's to me that that's good to you, Vade. No, absolutely. And then Ebony gets in and is like, oh, I think Luann's being too hard on Sonya. And I was like, well, not really because Sonya has been bringing this shit up for like

five years now. And like, you know, Tom, like married her, cheated on her, divorced her, humiliated her, she got arrested. Like, what happened with Tom and Luan is way bigger than what happened with Sonia and Tom, but Sonia, I mean, is still harping on this six-year marriage that she was in 12 years ago. And like, she can't give the shit up. So, of course, Luan's like frustrated and annoyed. It's like, you know, once the statue of. So of course, Lou Ann's frustrated and annoyed. It's like, you know, what's the statue of limitations on this same fucking argument? You're out.

It's the old one forever, forever. Yeah, absolutely. So on a personal level, you know, you became close with Erica Jane. You ghost wrote her book. How much has that affected what you do? I mean, do you worry about being, you know, slanted towards her? Do you think that it's natural that you would be slanted? I'm not saying

you are or you're not. I'm just asking because that's that's such a line to walk, you know, when you become actual friends with people and you're commenting about them. How's that going? No, absolutely. And I think it's like as soon as wrote the book, and I told Vulture, I was going to do it. And I was like, can I still write the recaps there? Yes, I want you to tell people. And ever since then, it's like, you know how how so I spandered? Like, you give them a reason.

They're just harp on it forever. And so, especially this year, I started my recapping with like, yes, I know Erica. I worked on her book. I still talk to her. But let's kind of wait and see what the season says and, you know, and we can judge it from there. And I think that if Erica, I know that if Erica was acting like anuse himself. You have no journalistic integrity. And I'm like, girl, it's fucking reality television recap. Like this is not like, you know, investigative journalism, like who cares. And as one of the commenters pointed out, this is the first year I recap New Jersey. And I started off the first recap with like, I'm gonna be square with you.

I fucking load Teresa Judicie. And someone points it out like, oh, you're yelling at Brian for being maybe biased towards Erica Jane, but you didn't yell at him for being biased against Teresa. So I don't see the difference to fans. Like, yeah, if I love somebody or hate somebody, and, you know, and I think that, yeah, obviously,

I know Erica, and so I'm gonna see her a little bit differently on television than a lot of people would, but I try to account for that. But also, one of the things I find fascinating about Housewives and Housewives fans is that, no matter who the woman is, there are people that love her and there are people that hate her. And so it's not, so if you don't like Erica, I think you can still read my recaps and see why I do. Or if you like Teresa, you can see like, okay, I get your point. And if you're going to have like a valid argument with me and see like, okay, I get your point. And if you're going to have like a valid

argument with me and say, like, okay, here are the reasons why I like Teresa. And here's why I think she's good. Like, I'm willing to listen to you, but just be like, you shouldn't be able to talk about this. I think it's stupid. So sorry, I'm just speaking of Erica. So this is now not to put you in a weird, uh, Erica position, although I don't really think I will. But one of my ongoing theories that I've been bitching and moaning about more and more has been about the rise of glam on the real housewives, which to me actually seem to really arrive in full force with Erica. She had the glam squad. And now it's like, now Rin has one and Dorit has one and Jen Shaw has the Shaw squad. And now we're even sawed a little bit on New York this week. And I'm I feel like we have these sort of endless scenes of glam. And then women sort of doing

these fashion shows. And it feels like filler content. And it's becoming I personally think it's very uninteresting. and I think it's actually something that's starting to plague these shows a bit. Where do you fall on that? Am I just a sour, sour person? No, I totally agree with you and Eric and Jane definitely set it off, especially like taking glam on vacation, whatever. And for Beverly Hills, I don't mind just so much because I think that's

the point of Beverly Hills. It's supposed to be rich and opulent. And you know, like these women going to a red carpet, which they would be getting glam for. So when they get glam and show up at the retail, I'm kind of like, OK, you have interesting outfits

on, like, I don't mind it. But the sort of diaspora of glam, I agree with you. Like Ebony and Lea need glam in Ramona's basement during a pandemic. Like, girl, come on. Or like, ginger needs to take somebody or like Jen Shaw gets in full glam in this dress and then goes to a mini mall in Salt Lake City. Like, what is even the point? Like it just seems stupid. So I wish that, you know,

maybe we could confine it to Beverly Hills. But I also liked when they went on that vacation to France and they were like, no one's bringing glam, no glam for anybody. And I think that maybe we might want to see more of that. But on the shows like New York, where Sonia, Ramona, Luanne have been on for so long and never needed or used glam, I don't think they're ever going to

get it or want to pay for it because we've been doing this for so long. Why do we need it now? And so I think it's mostly the new people coming in feel like there's a level of expectation of them. And I feel like it's another kind of like money flex. Like, oh, look at me. I brought the glam squad. I'm rich. But now also we have all this financial stuff with Erica and Tom going on.

And I think that her bringing her glam might not look the same way that it used to. Oh, yeah. No, and that kind of Ronald Richards, that lawyer who's like really coming for Eric a hard all the time on Twitter like he's really on her and he's like they didn't they hire him to like take notes on the show and he's like literally got a ledger that he's writing down everything like

the big time in necklace when she no like let's bring that out of storage bad she's like writing it down okay big time in necklace. And she now like, let's bring that out of storage. Bad. She's like, running it down. Okay, big time in necklace. Like everything she wears, those gold boots, they moved into another closet. He's writing every little piece of that down. Right. Looking up the manufacturers suggested retail price on the Fakit Gucci booties. Like adding it up. We're liquefied. I think Bravo is going to be really leaning into Erica's glam this season actually to sort of like a before and after kind of thing. So I'm I'm I fully expect lots and lots of that glam, but I guess for me, I get frustrated because those are scenes where we could be like learning a little bit more about someone. You know, with Erica, what am I ongoing issues with Erica is that we don't really know anything that goes on in her life. We just see her in her closet with Mikey and her assistants. And I always get frustrated because I feel like,

if you have a cast member who's not sharing such huge swaths of their life, then I feel like it has an effect of that other people feel, okay, well, then I don't have to share something. It's just my theory. But when I look at New York, one of the reasons why I think that New York is so good, Empatomic too,

is that they kind of are just like, they just put it all out there and they don't really hide away from anything. Also, to be fair, it kind of feels like the women on New York are mostly past their prime, you know, in like outside of Rooney. And so they don't really have anything to lose. Vienna's a cabaret career.

But other than that, their kids are off or out of the house more or less. They've had their careers, they've had their marriages, now they're just having fun. And they just have nothing to hold back. Well, and I think we also see you were talking about Lisa Rina being like, oh, I can't say the C word and now she's calling herself a cunt. Like I think everybody, these like walls go down a bit.

Like if you think of the first season of Roni, the reunion, Ramona got up and walked off set because they were talking about Alex McCord's new photo. We had now seen Ramona shit on the floor on multiple occasions. And, you know, and she still gets like prudish about Leah and stuff, but also like how far have you come that no longer or it's like we saw Luan introduce herself to the driver as Luan rather than Mrs. Deliceps. It's huge. Huge. Oh my God.

Ramona even knew the name of the help this week. It was really good about that. I see new everyone's name and set it over and over again to prove that she'd learned a lesson. I mean, when you get to a point where Ramona is learning lessons, like, do we just win everything now? Like, it just needs to stop production. It's like, I keep joking that Bravo should have a show

called Doing the Work. And we get like Stasi and, you know, Jacks and like Chris Harrison, like all these people who have been openly racist. And then like, they have to learn how to not be racist on the show. My show idea is called canceled. We just get all the canceled people, put them in a house, get them there. Let's do it. What could go wrong?

Thomas Ravennell. Let's put them all in there. Yeah, let's not get to that. Let's rehabilitate all of these good reality stars that we've lost. Yeah, it's a shame. It's a shame sometimes when you have a really good reality star. And you're like, oh, but your racist. That's too bad.

Yeah, sorry, but your racist, that's too bad. Yeah. Oh, sorry, Stasi. Oh, but before we wrap up, I do want to also mention that you have an absolutely amazing list on culture right now of the top 100 outrageous housewife moments. And I read through all of them yesterday. I read through them. I like processed. I like reminisced.

I want there was one though that actually motivated me into action. You talked about, I forget what's, what's, you know, no, you know, because I, because I, you're changing lives, sir. No, I tweeted about it and you responded. Oh, yeah, yeah. You, I'm one of, I forget what, what number it was, but about Bethany and Jill and how you said, you know, when they had that final conversation and Bethany was like devastated on the sidewalk in her red. So I decided to go and look at the clip that you linked to on that article. And I looked at this five minute clip,

and it was, first of all, it was amazing, amazing clip. And I have to say, I do think amazing clip. And I have to say I do think that looking at this Jill Zaren and Bethany fight with the lens of history, I mean, this is 11 years ago, I have to say, my opinion has totally changed. And I actually talked about this recently on the show, but watching that clip, I mean, Jill Zaren was an asshole for sure. But at that time, we were like, oh, Jill's such an asshole. And Bethany is the voice of the people. And now seeing everything that Jill Zeran says about Bethany and seeing really, we've

seen a little bit more of Bethany's true colors, I have to say I'm really on Jill Zeran's side with it. I mean, it, this is a woman who like nearly lost her husband who later then, RIP, Bobby, she's going through the pain of the torture of, in the unseernive cancer. And you can see her anguish as she's telling us to Bethany and Bethany's like, well, you know what? Like, I wrote you an email.

I wrote you an email. Like, I wrote you an email. You don't run me back. You don't run me back. Like, I don't know. I have to say. Thank you for that list, Brian. And she goes like, well, why didn't you call?

And at the time, we were like, oh, Jill, you're being so unreasonable. And now I'm like, oh, no, you're totally right. And just from watching Bethany all these years, I assume you watch Big Shot with Bethany, where she's like kind of a dick to these people on the show. And she's a monster of that lady.

Yeah, and, well, and knowing all I know about Bethany and how she was like really introducing the show, how she manipulated the press, like all of that stuff that was going on behind the scenes. Yeah, like I watched it when I wrote about it, because I remember when I initially watched it being on Bethany's side, so I think I wrote it like, oh, poor Bethany, but now I'm like, you know what, you're right. Like knowing what I know about Bethany, but now I'm like, you know what, you're right.

Like knowing what I know about Bethany and knowing what I know about Jill. Uh, yeah, I was on, yeah, side against. I'm not. Yeah. I think the, I think the problem with Jill with that was it's just how she handled it. I mean, if she'd gotten together with her and had that fight, but she was trying to do the whole, I'm not getting, she's not coming to anything. That's it.

You know, she tried to do the cutout in that season with Bethany, which you're going up against Bethany for that. Like, that's just a stupid move. I mean, just as someone who enjoys the game of housewives, you watch that like, you are playing this completely wrong and I cannot root for you. I thought it was super interesting in your book. You were talking to Darren Bettincourt who was her assistant and then Tinsley's. I didn't know he was Tinsley's as well. But boy, does that guy have trouble with recording things when he's not supposed to, doesn't he? I mean.

So what was that? He was accused. I think he didn't record that we talk about that after the boat ride from hell. I talk about in the book. There was a call amongst all the women, the producers, the production company, Andy, you know, Bravo everybody, because the women were really aggrieved and we're threatening to sue and we're looking for money and all this stuff. And supposedly there is a recording of this phone call.

And supposedly, according to people I know who have heard the recording, Andy is sort of yelling at the women and calling them have heard the recording, Andy is sort of yelling at the women and calling them names on the recording. And Bravo assumes that it was Darren who was Tinsley's like manager and publicist at the time. He claims it was not. So we'll see who exactly recorded it, but then I also talk to other people who were on the call

and they don't remember anything. Noteworthy about the call, but I don't know if that means that Andy wasn't yelling or Andy actually yells so much that they didn't notice that Andy was yelling. That's right. Yeah, this is another call. Right. It's just like, oh, here's Bravo being mad at us again. But I guess they did get like free spa vouchers out of having been on the boat. That's just like, oh, here's Bravo being mad at us again. But I guess they did get like free spa vouchers out of having them on the boat. That's terrible. Some of the stuff I'm just shocked at how cheap Bravo is. First, that whole boat ride thing, you know, they were saying it's so dangerous. The boat could capsize like it's scary, scary weather.

And Bravo's like, no, we have to do it. It's good TV. I mean, that right there is just fucking horrible. Not shocking. And I guess we continue that, but just terrible. And then when everyone gets mad to give them spa, afters, and you know, as to like, Lee is a little Russian spa downtown too. Wasn't even... Um, I used to go to homosexual sex parties in that Russian spa. Really? Oh, yeah. Back in the day day, girl, I had times, I had some times.

Oh, the old day. There was no secret recording then, you know, and you know what? By the way, another secret recording I would like to see. I would like to know what happened on that fateful trip when the cast of New Jersey went to the Dominican Republic and got into a brawl at the hotel because it was the manzoes and it was Theresa and Joe and the manzoes against some locals, right? Yeah.

And it was a whole lawsuit and it somehow went away and we never saw it on bravo during the cast trip. And I would like to see that gut on Earth. I think at the time, especially now that Caroline's getting dragged through the mud, deservedly so. I am ready for that as well. I talked to Greg Bennett, who was, you know, friends with the man's toes for the book. And we talked about that trip, but I don't, I can't remember if anything about the brawl came up because this interview was now quite some time ago. But I think the Gorgas in general is a treasure trove of shit that they

don't go into. You bring up in the book how Melissa's got fake storylines all the time or whatever, which is so true, like the missing sister from the psychic and the baby. But then meanwhile, you know, Steph has brought up, like in the past couple of weeks about them, like the, you know, you lost your parents house to make Melissa look rich enough to be on the housewives. And the all the shady Gorgah, there's so much shady Gorgah stuff that they don't get into at all, which is weird because that's one of the ones you're like, why are you protecting Melissa of all people, you know, I get Kyle Richards a little or people like that, but Melissa. Well, and whenever someone shows up on the housewives and their husband's job is entrepreneur, it's like red flag cities.

It's like who is an entrepreneur, Russell Armstrong, Joe Judi, Jay Jen Shaw, like entrepreneurs bitch, PK like. Oh, PK. Yeah, that's going to be another one. I can't wait for that downfall. That's going to be a great, great story. And I've been waiting for that for years. But tell everybody, because I'm going to mess it up, I stutter. I'm going to fuck everything up. But tell everybody where to find the housewives, the real story behind the real housewives by Brian Boylin. Um, it's out now. You can find the everywhere books. They're sold. Barnes and Noble Target, all that. You can buy it online at the housewivesbook.com. And there's links there to like independent booksellers. If that's what you enjoy. Um, also I, uh, Vulture and I started a couple weeks ago, the housewives institute bulletin, which is a, um, twice a month newsletter with, uh, housewives news recap highlights, original stories that I'm writing fun, stupid gifts and things like that.

And you can sign up for that. It comes out, um, every other Friday. And you can sign up for that at vulture.com slash housewives. Awesome. Well congratulations and really great work. This is how far I am. I'm only about halfway through. So all of that dirt I was asking about it was a lot. It was a lot. I'm only happy. You really. Roddy had like your chapter yet. I think that we were in this. I started it, yeah. This is also the first one. Really good. Yeah, the cover is great.

And yeah, and so I talked, there's a whole chapter about, people like us who do housewives for a living and the crazy fan communities and Facebook groups and all that and how like everything that is about housewives eventually turns into housewives. People yelling at each other and the receipts and you know craziness. That's true. By the way, I only just now noticed this back cover. This back cover is hilarious. I'm not even going to ruin it for people. When you get the book, look at this back cover.

I'm gonna ruin it for people. When you get the book, look at this back cover. Praise for the housewives from that. From themselves. That was my idea, that was my idea. And there's also a humdinger of a dedication in the very front. So. Oh wow.

Well, I can't wait to dive into this. And thank you so much for coming on. We'd love chatting with you. I feel like the last time we had a nice big chat was the Ray episode of Rony. I feel like you came on for that and we just got all in about Ray, which is so perfect. And then I interviewed Ray for the book

about the fallout of being on housewives. So. God. Bitch, you bitch. Yeah. He has a kid on the way now. Yep. I mean, good for her!

Good for her! Good for her! Good for her! Sure, that'll be a wonderful, wonderful, totally well-behaved, well-mattered baby coming down the pipe. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? I probably think after that episode they invited him to go on below deck,

but he said no. Yeah, I don't really understand him. What? Like as a guest. Maybe because he had to pay or something because you know, he'd been on the let you on that ship for free. They're like, hey, would you like to come on our show? That'll be $50,000. I know. I was like, bitch, you crazy. Yeah. I think of the bravo one hit wonders. I think we have Alison Dubois at the top. Yeah, Ray and we have now we have Bolo. I think Bolo has has achieved a place. And I don't know if there there may be some others in there, but I don't know of any three who have reached the status

that those three have in like our collective Bravo imagination. One of the people, so I reached out to, as many people as I could possibly find, and one of the people who I was really hoping to talk to me who declined was Deity Camille's former friend who was at the dinner party from hell. She's now like a makeup artist in Seattle and doesn't like to talk about her time on the house.

Oh god, I don't blame her. She got trampled on that zone. She was just trying to, it's like she actually came on trying to be a good friend to somebody. No. And no, there's no room for goodness in this game. Guys, it's basically to come heal. Okay. Oh my god. All right all right well great talking to you

hopefully we'll get to talk again soon thanks for being here go bye this book people yeah thanks Brian talk to you next time bye watch what crap ends would like to think it's premium sponsors ain't no thing like Allison King Ashley Savoni she don't take no baloney. Dana C. Dana Duh. She's not just a Sheila. She's a Daniella. Itchles. Let's rent some errands with Emily Eryans. Aaron McNickolas, she don't miss no trickle-ists. Alva Nagila Weber. Jamie, she has no less name-y. Sip some scotch with Jessica Trotch. Jess saying okay. She's a little bit loony. Juni, she's always supplying. It's Kelly Ryan.

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