Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - AirPods Might be Getting Worse and Matter has FINALLY Landed!

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

What is happening at Twitter!? Marques, Andrew, and David discuss it briefly before acknowledging that we'll never be up-to-date and moving on to the Xiaomi 12S Ultra leak. After that they talk about the active noise cancelling on Apple AirPods potentially getting worse and then David explains what's going on with the Matter smarthome protocol. Then we wrap it up with trivia! Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Links: Xiaomi leak: https://bit.ly/icetwitterwvfrm RTings AirPods review: https://bit.ly/rtingswvfrm Reddit thread about AirPods: https://bit.ly/airpodsredditwvfrm Verge article: https://bit.ly/vergeairpodswvfrm Shop products mentioned: Xiaomi 12S Ultra at https://geni.us/BkeE7q5 Apple AirPods Max at https://geni.us/DKTUAg Apple AirPods Pro 2 at https://geni.us/yuZW Bose QC Earbuds 2 at https://geni.us/x4a435S Google Nest Doorbell at https://geni.us/e1NJ Twitters: Waveform: https://twitter.com/wvfrm Marques: https://twitter.com/mkbhd Andrew: https://twitter.com/andymanganelli David: https://twitter.com/DurvidImel Adam: https://twitter.com/adamlukas17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wvfrmpodcast/ Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. What is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marques. I'm Andrew. And I'm David.

And in today's episode, we're going to talk about, we're going to live follow what happens on Twitter for the next 45 minutes, and that's all we're going to talk about. Just kidding. That would be impossible. Everything would be outdated by the time this goes live. No, we're going to talk about some interesting concepts, actually. How Xiaomi put out this little idea of some extra camera lenses on a smartphone, how it might be kind of cool.

Also, how Apple may have made noise cancellation worse. You might have seen some headlines about that. We're going to talk about it. And also, what in the world is Matter? But first, no, seriously, let's talk about Twitter for a second. Just a second. Just like it's been absolute chaos. So from the top of the show, the reason we're not talking about Twitter all the time is,

number one, I made a video which I think concisely summarizes my general thoughts on Twitter, what I have seen, what I'm hoping to see. And as someone who really likes Twitter, some suggestions. It's like a cry out to like, please don't die, Twitter. There are like whenever I make a product suggestion, I find that there are real product managers who like work on these products that see these things. Obviously, Elon's in charge of Twitter, but there's still people who work on Twitter stuff that like take suggestions and Elon does follow me on Twitter.

So I was just like, here's the stuff I'm seeing and what I'm thinking. And then if I try to like cover all the updates of things that are changing on Twitter since then, I would never be up to date because there's too many of them. So I think we're just going to leave it at that. Like the last thing that happened, for example,

Five minutes ago. Yeah, literally as we were walking into this room here, it was like they added a second badge briefly for a few hours where you have a verified badge, but then there was a second underneath it that had another badge and said official. So everyone who had a verified badge before had a verified badge and that would be the Twitter blue verified human badge.

And then there was an additional badge that would say you're an official person, meaning you're a high profile, someone who would normally have had the old verified badge. Like you're the only official one of that person. And so some YouTubers, some journalists, some blogs started getting that official badge. And, uh, probably about an hour and a half ago, I tweeted a screenshot of it because I had two badges now on my profile. And then an hour later, it was gone. And they just deleted them from the entire website.

And that's what happened. That's literally what happened. They just appeared and disappeared. They tried something. The product manager or project manager for that official badge, she tweeted out this long thread about why they're thinking about doing this and what their opinion on it is

and why they're specifically going with a second badge, and that tweet was relevant for about an hour and a half. Yeah. Well, she did tweet it 18 hours ago, so it was like it started last night, and then, yeah, now, less than 24 hours later, all of that means nothing. I saw her tweet on the train this morning, and then by the time I got to the office, it was gone. I think there's a good amount of West Coast people

who are going to wake up who were double verified overnight for some time and had no idea what happened. Never saw it. Never even got to see it. Amazing. But I have a screenshot of when I was double verified. Yeah, you can remember the one hour that you were double verified. Yeah, it really happened.

Anyway, so that's Twitter. If something else happens, maybe we'll ring like an alarm in the middle of the podcast like something new happened on Twitter. Let's talk about it. I think Ellis is keeping an eye on it. Maybe.

That's a Twitter alarm just in case. If something worthy of pausing happens, just sound the alarm and we'll see what's trending on Twitter at that moment. Anyway, let's talk about this Xiaomi concept because it was kind of interesting what do you want to break it down because it was first like a leaked thing and then it was confirmed and now xiaomi is teasing it a little bit yeah so ice universe on twitter or i guess universe ice as he always usually does um sorry i just like how the tweet the tweet in here that you screenshotted has the official

mark oh yeah so i screenshotted it this morning before it was taken away incredible yeah uh so he leaked this screenshot of this basically xiaomi 12s ultra which had a full leica lens attached to the back of it and everyone started like freaking out and pretty soon after that xiaomi officially put out their concept phone which is the 12 the xiaomi 12s ultra concept uh effectively it's like exactly what you would think where they added a second 1.0 1.0 type sensor to the phone and then that sensor is not covered by any rear elements. It's not covered by any glass. It just has the sapphire glass over the top of it. And then there's an adapter that slaps onto the back of the phone, and then you can put a full Leica lens on top of that. So you're basically just condensing the light with way more glass

with a full Leica lens to get a better image, which adds a lot of different things because things like depth of field are a function of the amount of Z depth that you can have between the sensor and the lens. So, I mean, you're going to get better image quality. You're going to get better, like real depth of field instead of like bad portrait mode and all this stuff. And I think they just mostly did this because they have that new partnership with Leica now, um, because Huawei and Leica are no longer best friends. Now,

Xiaomi is Leica's best friend. Yeah. Um, so I, I don't know. I think that Xiaomi likes to move fast and break things just like Twitter and, uh, they create a lot of random stuff. Um, so this seems very interesting. We have, uh, We've seen other stuff like this before. Sort of. We saw the red hydrogen, which is the beautiful giant stinker of the red hydrogen. That was allegedly someday going to get something like this.

That's the problem. It was supposed to have a module I think that would have a sensor, and then that sensor would be able to put a lens on it. We never got any modulars. I think that's what it was. Because the regular cameras sucked on it. Because I remember remember i was really really excited because i used to use all fuji cameras and fuji lenses and that was part of the compatibility list it was that you could use like fuji lenses i think they originally said a couple like modules that they were going to have but there was nothing to go directly lens onto the smartphone camera aspect of it.

Right. Yeah. And none of that ever actually got made either. And they, they, they kept promising to me cause I made my first review video and there was like one module, I think that the pins on the back of the phone. And I was like, yeah, so there's no modules. If you're going to like sell the phone with the modules as a feature, maybe you should have like a couple of first party modules out. And they're like, oh yeah, trust me, this next one's going to be amazing, it's going to be the camera thing. That never happened. But the other one that I thought was cool is what Sony did a couple years ago,

which was an Xperia smartphone that had, it was again, it would attach essentially an entire digital camera to the back of the phone, but it was in the form factor of like just adding a lens to the back. You would attach it with a bracket. When it touched the back of your phone, it would pair to your phone via NFC, and your phone is basically a Bluetooth viewfinder for this nice sensor with nice glass.

That was kind of cool. It didn't sell. Most people just use their smartphone cameras anyway, but it was kind of cool. So it was like the Samsung Galaxy Zoom, except you ripped off the zoom lens and made it separate yeah and then it's still like nice glass i guess is nicer glass but this is like you're using yeah glass that people are actually using on like photo cameras nice cameras these are seven to eight eight thousand dollar lenses so crazy it's not like a 5.6 to f8 like yeah i think the most important thing about this is that it's a concept, and there's a lot of baggage that comes with the word concept.

One is like, when you go to CES and you see a bunch of concept cars, you have no expectation of that car ever coming out, right? It's like a test thrown out into the winds by the manufacturer to just see what people think. And maybe they'll make something like this someday, but this is not a real product. Two, I don't think this will ever be a real product because there's a bunch of things that are obviously very tough about it. It's more expensive to do something like this. The 12S Ultra already has an incredible camera and it's also a very expensive phone. And so to make this

adjustment to it and sell it and sell lenses would just be a crazy expensive system, at which point you might as well just buy a camera, which most people will do. And then there's the physics question, which is a sensor this small with glass this big letting in this much light would actually create an effective depth of field of maybe like one to two inches.

It would be an incredible shallow depth of field. It's super shallow. So you get a lot of light in, but your profile, your picture of a face would be like the tip of the nose would be in focus. You'd have to shoot at like F12 all the time. Yeah, it'd be tough. So there's a bunch of reasons why I think it's going to be a concept. And it's like Xiaomi going, oh, we thought of something and we're not going to make it.

But we did kind of put all this work into engineering samples. Let's just like share the concept. Remember the OnePlus concept phone at CES that one year? It basically, it took, um, it had that special in that glass that can darken using electricity, electric current. And it basically created like an ND filter over the lens so that you could do long exposures and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. They made a whole fuss about this, but of course they never launched it. That was actually the first time I met you guys yeah that was because i left my tripod at the one plus yeah i was on the other side of vegas and i sprinted all the way back and i showed up or something a different hotel and

yeah yeah that was fun but um this is kind of cool and it doesn't look like they have to do that much you know like for a concept, the Xiaomi 12 already looks like this, right? It's like a circular camera bump. It's pretty close. It's not that much different of a form factor. I would say though, I agree with you. I don't think we ever see this.

At best, this is going to be like, what was that one Sony Xperia that was like $2,000 and was supposed to be essentially like paired with an a7 and be like the extra viewfinder. Oh yeah, it's very pro. The pro. This feels like at best could be one of those like insanely niche.

Like you're someone who has a like a camera already. Like you have these lenses so you don't have to pay a bunch for these. But if you're bringing those lenses, you're probably bringing your camera already, right? Yeah. If you have to pack like two or three of these lenses, that's enough volume in your bag for what?

The camera body. A nice camera. Not that much more. And Leica cameras are already fairly compact as it is. So yeah, I mean, the kind of cool thing about this is a lot of mirrorless cameras are effectively just computers, you know? This is why I want like, so the Hasselblad UI on the back of the cameras is pretty good and like pretty smooth. But I keep saying like the Samsung Galaxy camera was ahead of its time. Because what we all really want is our phone, which we're really used to, to take mirrorless, incredible, like photos that we see all the time with shallow depth of field and everything like that.

So we keep trying to combine them. And like, what if we bring like a lens from this world and just mount it on the back of our camera? And it's like, we want the great cameras, but we want the UI of our phones. It's like, if we find a good way to merge the two, we'll be set. I think what we need to do instead of building onto our phones

is bring the phone UI to a nice camera. Oh, absolutely. Basically make it run Android and have a nice camera. Yeah, all the UIs on all cameras, most cameras suck. Except for like Hasselblad and Red, absolutely. Basically make it run Android and have a nice camera. Yeah, all the UIs on all cameras, most cameras suck. Except for like Hasselblad and Red, basically. This sounds so much like legacy car manufacturers. I was going to say that. There's three things you can count on the UI sucking,

which is cameras, in-car infotainment systems, and printers. Those three things, they'll never be good. There's some law of the universe that prevents them from making it. Kill all printers. Those three things, they'll never be good. There's some law of the universe that prevents them from making it. Kill all printers. I will say that I think that using physics to take photos is pretty much always the way and that we, in a lot of ways,

we have over-computational photography our way into... Too far, you think? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hipster i mean i don't know if you look at if you look at modern pixel photos they're like over sharpened and over contrasty and that's just because like the hardware in other devices is getting better and the sensors are getting bigger to the point where you don't need to lean into that processing as much. Like

it saved bad processors or bad sensors, but it doesn't need that as much anymore. Obviously, like you guys said, if you're going to already carry around these lenses, which are huge, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. But I'll play, if I play devil's advocate, I think, and we're, this might be a spoiler alert. We're going to do another blind smartphone camera test this year. And I have a feeling the ones that do a lot of computational photography are going to do well yeah and that's like kind of what people it's like appealing to what people want to see in their eyes so it's like in order to get closer to the ones that have the physics advantage you have to do computational photography but it is yeah it is debatable like are they going too far

is it just bad computational photography i don't think it bad. I think it's just that what use we used to think was good now feels bad compared to everything else. I think it's just like comparatively, but that's, this is also coming from someone who like, I, I want to be able to do a lot with my pictures and yeah. You know so anyway cool concept cool concept cool concept we'll see if uh xiaomi follows up on it at any point in the future i really want to hold one yeah this entire thing in one hand the phone there's a photo of it in the dock yeah it is the center looks like a big the center of gravity on that thing is probably just the lens yeah you probably just hold the lens and you just tap the screen yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well, we'll take a quick break.

We'll come back and we'll talk about some other stuff. But before we do that, it's trivia time. And producer cam trivia time. Producer cam? Oh, we should fire up the producer cam for the first time ever. Let's hit it. Amazing. Should you clap?

Welcome. Welcome. welcome that's the best possible beginning that's our producers making their job as hard as possible they're doing that to themselves trivia time trivia time Ellison and Adam

welcome to being on camera on the podcast hi folks we are now on camera for trivia and trivia only. And we both wore green sweaters completely on accident. That was not an accident. No shot. You knew it was producer. We know what's happening.

Okay, trivia time. Just green screen yourself so that you're just floating heads. Oh, God, no. Okay. In 1999, a company called Zip2 was acquired by Compaq for $307 million. Which modern-day tech juggernaut was one of the founders? All right. Okay, I know what it is.

Yeah, me too. Cool. Got it. Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

See you after the break. Break! Ah! You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know.

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Visit connectsontario.ca. All right, welcome back. I have a little news about Apple's noise canceling, and we've been seeing it for the last couple weeks. A few different things have happened, but people have been claiming, and this is a claim we've seen before, that their noise canceling on their AirPods Pro

and their AirPods Max has gotten worse. Okay, this is one of those claim we've seen before, that their noise canceling on their AirPods Pro and their AirPods Max has gotten worse. Okay, this is one of those things I've seen headlines and a couple of rogue tweets about, but I haven't actually investigated it. I do regularly fly with AirPods Max, so I'm interested. Okay, I'm going to try and, there's a lot of different theories and stuff out there. I'm going to try and say the facts first, and then we can go over the theories, and then we can go over what our theories are,

and then Ellis can tell us why everyone's wrong. Sounds good. Ellis was very heated about this this morning, so he'll come in. So pretty much people started claiming, I said this already, noise cancellation getting worse in their AirPods. They think they noticed it.

AirPods Max in particular. Max, but I think some people are also saying Pros as well. Really? I think it's both of them. Yeah, but I think Max are the ones that kind of sparked this very specific because what happened then is the update came out in May.

A website called, I believe it's pronounced Ratings. It's R-T-I-N-G-S. And they did a test finally to kind of try and prove this. And it did seem like there was a slight change in the cancellation between, it says there's a slight change in the canceling of noise between the mid-bass to high-bass range. A slight change in canceling of noise between mid-bass and high-bass.

So, okay. So there is some sort of a difference. There was a firmware update in May where this happened. And that's when people started guessing it. And now it has led to um i think it was previously this week there was a huge thread on our apple describing what's happening with a really kind of crazy theory as to why it's happening which we can get to in a minute um but like this isn't the first time this has happened this has happened on different, people with Bose have said this before. I think Sony like a year or two ago,

a lot of people said there's got worse. The XM like threes, I think got an update and started to get worse. I'm just going to go over a couple of the theories that people think why this might be happening. And then I kind of want to talk about it because it's also one of those things where when you're dealing with these small different noise cancellations, it's things you hear. There's all kinds of different things that can affect that.

There's placebo. If I tell you, you can tell someone your phone's feeling slower and then somebody might be like, oh, mine feels slower too. Yeah. Who knows if something actually. So we did get a test to prove there was a small change, but a lot of people are thinking it's potentially because of, and I think everyone who's used over-ear noise-canceling headphones and maybe even in-ears, that pressure feeling you get. Of like a really strong noise cancellation? Of like almost feeling like you're getting trapped inside of pressure

because of the noise cancellation. It feels like you're getting covered up over your ears. So some people are thinking that potentially Apple made a slight change to try and reduce that feeling. Maybe they were getting complaints about noise pressure. We always have to talk about planned obsolescence. I'm just talking about it. I'm not saying anything.

I'm just asking questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Classic. But there's always talked about planned obsolescence. I'm just asking questions. I'm protecting myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Classic. You know, but like, there's always talked about planned ops lessons. There's people who feel like Apple is trying to slowly work back to their next pair of headphones launching and they have a big percentage difference in noise cancellation.

iPhone batteries, iPhone CPUs getting ramped down. Like, it's just one of those. And then there's also a big Reddit thread that seems to think, and I'm going to start this off straight up by saying, it's just one of those and then there's also a a big reddit thread that seems to think and i i'm going to start this off straight straight up by saying it feels pretty debunked that's 98 new tweets at me sorry okay so um there's there's a really big reddit thread like i mentioned before on our apple um talking about a lawsuit between apple and it's kind of between a patent issued in 2002 for a company called Jawbone but

now that company is owned by a patent troll um I don't think called Jawbone Innovations I think I think Jawbone straight up went out of business and then another company bought them renamed themselves Jawbone yeah and was like we own the patent portfolio now yeah yeah so the reason i don't think this is that despite this i i don't know have you guys seen this link to you it's been on our subreddit it's been all over our apple it's been all over like kind of everywhere i'm gonna guess this i like skimmed it and it struck me as such a like deep cut conspiracy that i dismissed it yeah also if it's if it's a if it's a lawsuit, it's like public information, right? It is.

And the biggest issue with this is this lawsuit seems to be mostly about microphone arrays and more things in terms of smart speakers rather than specifically noise cancellation and like AirPods Max. So despite the huge thread being there, there's a pretty decent comment that I also can't prove is completely right.

Seeming to debunk it. It's all very confusing. Um, but I like, what do we think is the problem here? Like what? So we have no, we have no official response from Apple. No. And so I think I can start this off by saying, I think the biggest issue here is that there is nothing from Apple. Like this has become widespread enough to where there's headlines the fact that apple's not saying what these updates are doing seems to be the biggest issue here because either people are getting something less than what they paid for or apple is now just like because of a small update they made that may be beneficial to the user people are going on all sorts of different tirades of what could be happening. And the whole tech landscape is kind of freaking out about this

because Apple just won't communicate properly. Yeah, so I guess Apple is one of those companies where they like to communicate that stuff as little as possible. In the off chance that this podcast is out of date by the time it comes out, I'm gonna predict what Apple's statement is. Okay.

AirPods Max have great noise cancellation that cancels out lots of awful frequencies with amazing technology and an array of microphones on the outside. We regularly push updates to AirPods Max to improve the customer experience. Yeah. Avoid the question. Complete non-answer is probably what I'm expecting. No, listen, i haven't heard any difference and i also don't know if i have the new or old firmware on my airpods max so i couldn't tell you if i've noticed anything worse i'm probably going to get on a flight tomorrow and go oh you know what i do hear a little bit more noise it was apparently from last may last night probably i've flown many times uh this came out in september yeah this last may so if you've updated your airpods since may

i also don't know if i have do they update in the background i have no idea because my sony headphones there's like a process to update the firmware yeah you can see in the app what your firmware is and update will pop up and go do you want to update are you sure it's gonna like be disconnected for a while and then you have to do it right airpods max i don't know what the process is for updating the firmware so i couldn't tell you if I'm on the new firmware. I might just be on my original firmware. I believe they update in the background while they are simultaneously connected to your phone via Bluetooth and in the case.

I think that those two conditions need to be met. Okay, so there's a pretty good chance. What about people that don't use the case? Then they'll die. Yeah, I thought there's no way to use it. Yeah, they don't turn off if you don't put them in the case, right? Remember how they don't have an on button? They never really turn off, right?

They just go into ultra low energy mode or whatever. If you leave them out the case, they will be like ready to pair for a while before they go into ultra low energy mode. And if you put them in the case, then they just immediately go to low energy mode. This feels dumb. The case is so beautiful. Why would you not put it in? Yeah. I don't own these.

These sound like the most frustrating headphones. They're annoying because they don't fold down very much and you basically have to use the case that it comes with. Yeah. I don't own these. These sound like the most frustrating headphones. They're annoying because they don't fold down very much. And you basically have to use the case that it comes with. And so I bring them around in my backpack. And they are the entire top half of my backpack. Wow. And they're very annoying to travel with. But they sound really good.

They pair instantly to my phone. And they have great noise cancellation. So I'm like, fine, this is my go-to. Good noise cancellation. Well, I also, yeah, I would love to hear the difference. For additional context, I remember during the summer, noise cancellation so i'm like fine this is my good noise cancellation well i also yeah i would love to hear the difference so i for additional context like i remember during the summer quinn was tweeting out like i'm pretty sure that the noise cancellation on these have gotten significantly worse and then i just started seeing a lot of random tweets about it and then the verge put

out an article called i'm pretty sure yeah i, I think I saw that. I'm convinced the AirPods Max after noise cancellation has gotten worse. And they were just like, here's all of my stuff. Here's some other tweets to back me up. I'm definitely like,

it feels like it. And then the RTings thing came out fairly recently. That was like a week or two ago. Didn't we have those ears where we can like measure noise cancellation? So I think

we'd have to have their old firmware. I think though, Ellis, did you create some sort of... Yeah, I have a lot to say about all this. Please, school us. One, I think it's a really good point that this lawsuit probably doesn't have a lot to do with it. Because the thing that everyone's kind of conveniently leaving out of this is that Jawbone is suing like every tech company right now. Like they're suing Google and you can be like,

oh, Google makes noise canceling earbuds too. But they're also suing Amazon who doesn't as far as I know. But Amazon does make products that have beamforming microphones in them. So it's a microphone related lawsuit. It really. So it's a microphone-related lawsuit. It really seems like it's a microphone-related lawsuit. Yeah. You know, the big thing is, like, when I was looking at the ratings are Tings test,

and I just want to, I guess I'll, like, throw this out in front before, like, people start tweeting angrily at us. I was paid by Apple to say all this. Tim Cook is actually wiring money to Western Union. Right after this, I'm going to run to the bank. So yeah, just before anyone calls me out on Twitter, you're right.

No. J.K. Yeah, complete, yeah, total joke. But looking at the ratings test, they only have the post-firmware results on their website, at least that I could find. Maybe it's hidden through a tab that I didn't click through this morning, but I couldn't find it. And I found screenshots of older tests, but those older tests don't have a date on them. And in between beginning to test them in this new firmware, they updated their test bench.

And they updated their test bench specifically to have more accuracy in the lower frequencies. And if you look at this screenshot, there's also about a 10 decibel difference in the lower frequencies with noise canceling off, like on their pink noise. So I don't really know how to trust those screenshots. But the biggest thing for me about this whole controversy, I mean, I guess the two biggest things. One, every company that makes noise canceling products has this scandal. It's happened to Sony.

It's happened to Bose. Everyone loves to be like, they're making them worse. And the big thing is that hearing is by far our most, I mean, maybe other than smell, but hearing is our most subjective sense. We don't have reliable ears. And something I always think about is how our eyes can see 300 terahertz of bandwidth as far as energy goes. Our ears only go 20 to 20K. It's like our eyes are so much more sensitive.

It can process this like huge amount of information that our ears can't and sort of like demonstrate this, you know, this is completely unscientific before all of the bros come out and are like, no, no, no, this is this. Yes. This is a very unscientific test. But I recorded David this morning, just like a few seconds of David. And I took some, some field recordings of just like a few seconds of David. Oh, that's what that was used for? And I took some field recordings of just like being on the street in downtown Atlanta, like right in the center of the city. And I took what ratings claimed

that their noise, that that AirPods Max noise cancellation EQ curve looks like. And I applied it to the Apple, to the Atlanta sound. And then I also took what they claimed the old one was or whatever that screenshot I could find. So if you guys can tell me which one of these has better noise canceling versus worse noise canceling.

Get out your trivia boards. Here we go. So this is number one. You're listening to the Waveform Podcast. And this is number two. You're listening to the Waveform Podcast. And this is number two. You're listening to the Waveform Podcast. This is number one again. You're listening to the Waveform Podcast.

And you're listening to number two. You're listening to the Waveform Podcast. Okay. I think one has slightly better noise cancellation than two. That's what I was going to than two are we all in agreement? I was going to say that as well now that you asked me I'm not sure anymore but yeah that's what I think

but that's what I'm saying it's like all these people are coming out of the wardrokes and being like oh it's gotten so much worse and it's like even ratings says it's an amount that most people it's like imperceptible to and so I the other thing is that wait was I right? It's an amount that most people, it's imperceptible too, I think. And so, yeah.

The other thing is that the- Wait, was I right? I don't know. Yeah, you guys were right. Let's go. Okay. Yeah, we were all right. I'm sorry.

It was killing me inside. Okay. Yeah. And again, this is totally unscientific, but that had six decibels of difference in some frequencies. You know what I mean? These weren't small cuts I was making and it's still like almost imperceptible.

I know nothing about audio. Well, and the other thing is that these headphones have microphones on the inside of the cups, right? And so what they're doing there is they're actually listening to what's going on in between your ear and the driver. And that information is playing a big part into, oh, I need to be taking out more of this.

Oh, I'm taking out too much of this, right? And if those microphones get gunked up by your dirty skin and your oily hair and whatever. Usage over time. They're going to work less. And I couldn't find a single comment of someone being like, yeah, I took some Blu-Tack and cleaned out the microphones. Yeah.

Yeah, this is like a, I always think like when I, when I listen to, when I read audio file based reviews of like headphones and audio products, and there's all this description of like all, everything that happens in each little frequency and the sibilance and the soundstage and every, and the, the bass and the sub bass and all that stuff. I always just think like, oh, I guess it sounds pretty good. Like if, if you just boil it down to to like how much are you paying and does it sound good usually you can boil it down to it's expensive and it sounds good and above a certain number it's just personal preference like like to use another car analogy if you take like five of the best sports cars in

the world all of them are over 200 grand And you take one of them and you make it a quarter of a second slower in the eighth quarter mile, something like that. Most people would never feel the difference. They would still feel ballistically fast. But at some level, there is a person who can kind of perceive a little bit of that difference. And it's like, if you are that person, then yes, you should be shopping in that echelon and picking between the craziest of the crazy, and you deserve to be outraged over the six decibel difference in the AirPods Max

that costs $550. But for most people who are just getting on a plane and don't wanna hear the baby next to them, these still work just fine. And I think I'm gonna be okay with that. I'd be mad if they are bad at noise canceling now. It feels like some dramatic difference where now they don't work anymore. But I'm not too

worried at the expense of probably also sounding like Tim Cook's in my pocket. I'm not too worried. We need your report back after that flight you have. Yeah, tomorrow. I think it's especially true. We were talking about this when the new AirPods Pro came out

and it never really made it in a full video. But Apple headphones are now untestable, right? There's so much computation happening at any given moment. There's a different EQ curve for all 12 steps of the volume on an iPhone. It's literally changing to adjust for how your ears perceive different frequencies and different loudnesses. So, you know, just if you like them, that's great.

And if you don't, there's a whole company out there. It's called Bose. They also make great products. I'm sure you'll love them. Yeah. Sony's out there. Yeah. Sony, too.

They make headphones. We're using Google Pixel Buds Pro. Yeah. Sennheiser makes headphones well i was gonna say we we just got a pair of focals in the office the bathys that have uh noise canceling that i think are just fantastic yeah i think when i get on a plane the most common headphones that i see now for because i i'm a nerd i notice what headphones people are wearing um there's a lot of Sonys over ear

and there's a pretty good amount of AirPods Max. And then there's a lot of AirPods. It's crazy because it used to be the QC35s. For every single person. Not very long ago. A lot of business people. I do use these Bose.

We talked about this a couple of weeks ago. For flights? Yeah. The hilarious thing about this, these are the Bose Earbuds 2. I think they're Quiet Comfort. Quiet Comfort Earbuds 2. Yeah. The funny thing about these is they are the best noise cancellation headphones I've ever used. They cut out every frequency on a plane except for a frequency that I couldn't hear when I didn't have them in. From the air conditioning. There's one air conditioning frequency that I can't hear when I didn't have them in from the air conditioning

there's one air conditioning frequency that I can't hear when I don't have them in but it's just it doesn't cut those out so it's like the whole time I'm on the plane and I'm just like oh man otherwise they're great so I think the end

to this is clean your headphones out please clean that shit out. Clean those mics. I would love to see a response from Apple, even if, you know. I would like some communication. If they communicate what they did, we don't have 20 different Reddit threads about it. You already know what they're going to say. Yeah.

Fair. Whatever. People love our AirPods Max devices. Yeah, people love the noise cancellation. Don't communicate. We would like to still speculate on the podcast. It is worth speculating, too, you know, after I just went on that whole rant, because that thing did happen a week and a half ago, maybe two weeks ago,

where when the AirPods 2 came out, Apple made this huge deal. They were like, our new silicon, it can process stuff at an incredible speed. That's why the new transparency mode is so lit. And then two weeks ago, they were like, the H1 chip now supports it. And we were like, well, what was all that? This happens all the time in the tech industry, though. This is pretty classic.

They use new stuff to say, this is the only way that this can do this, like Tensor or, you know, and then it doesn't end up being the only way to do it. We're working on a M2 iPad Pro review where it's the same as the M1 iPad Pro. Yeah. But the M2 one supports hover with the Apple Pencil.

And if you ask Apple like, oh, why does the M2 one support hover with the Apple Pencil? They're like, M2 is good. And you're like, well, M1 was pretty good too. I'm pretty sure you could do it with that. But they'll never say you could. Six to eight months later. And then six months later, maybe you can.

I'm waiting. We'll see. Well, we'll see what Apple's statement is inevitably. Probably like quote mine and then when Apple comes out with theirs, we just put them next to each other. I want to write copy for this and then we can see how exactly close. It's a whole job. It's someone's whole job right now. They're listening to the podcast like,

yes, yes, that's good. That's good. Well, we'll take another quick break, though. We'll talk about smart home stuff in a second, but that, of course, means we have some more trivia.

Trivia, dude. The word metaverse was originally coined in a science fiction novel called Snow Crash. What year was that novel published? And we're looking for the closest year. I don't.

I don't know. I think I know this. I definitely don't know. Yeah. There's no chance. I mean, I'm going to guess a year, but it's going to be wrong. I'm probably going to be wrong. I read this Wikipedia page like 800 times, and I'm probably still wrong.

You might know too much. You might know too little. That puts Andrew in the sweet spot. Let's go. Goldilocks. Total randomness. Incredible. This is probably closer.

We'll give the point to whoever's years closest. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. All right. We'll be right back. Breaking news coming in from Bet365, where every nail-biting overtime win,

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Support for the show today comes from NetSuite. Anxious about where the economy is headed? You're not alone. If you ask nine experts, you're likely to get 10 different answers. So unless you're a fortune teller and it's perfectly okay that you're not, Thank you. piled insights about how AI and machine learning may affect your business and how to best seize this new opportunity. So you can download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com slash waveform. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash waveform, netsuite.com slash waveform. All right, welcome back. I have a question to ask you guys, and maybe this is a little embarrassing because I've nodded my head as you've talked about this

topic in the past, and I had no idea what we were talking about so confessional matter has been brought up quite a few times i know there was something about matter that happened pretty recently um i don't know what it is like pretty much at all okay so do you know have any idea no that's fair it is it's kind of been a background development for me and i i feel like i basically just know what it's supposed to be which is okay we have a bunch of different smart home ecosystems they run on their own standards or protocols or they talk to each other and in the future there should be a universal protocol where they all talk to each other. And in the future, there should be a universal protocol where they all talk to each other. They all need to have this radio or whatever

where they all talk to each other. And then the ecosystem walls are broken down and everything is happy and harmonious. All right. I know David knows like all about it. How wrong am I, please? Every time Marques is like, I heard about this like kind of a little bit once. Am I kind of right? I don't know if I all about it. How wrong am I? Please. Every time Marquez is like, I heard about this,

like kind of a little bit. Am I kind of right? I, I don't know if I know about it. Here's the perfect explanation. I was, I wanted to cue this up as kind of like, yes,

yes, no. We're like, but Marquez is definitely on the, maybe yes, I'm at no. And I want David to explain it to us and us to try and explain it back. Our reply.

So yeah. Yeah. Professor David, please explain in a longer form. Okay. What does matter and does it matter? It absolutely matters. Okay, perfect. If it works. Okay. So everyone's hoping it works.

Okay, so currently in the smart home ecosystem, right? Way back when Amazon Alexa was first invented and the Echo came out and it was like one of the first smart home products that was available, right? Amazon had to create something that would allow the Echo devices to talk to smart home stuff, right? This is not dissimilar to the fact that Tesla made its own charger because there was not a charging standard at the time. And now we have this kind of mess where Tesla has its own charger and then there's Chatimo and all this stuff. Lightning, USB-C. Yeah. So as the smart home ecosystem built out and players like Apple with HomeKit and Google with Google Assistant came onto the market,

they kind of just like made their own stuff. And so now when you go to the store, when you go to Best Buy or like some store and you buy smart home stuff, there's all these labels on the boxes that say like works with Alexa, works with Google Assistant, works with Apple HomeKit. And this is a big problem for a lot of reasons because you can't just go out and like buy smart lights now. You have to be like, okay, well, what's my beacon device that I'm using as my main voice assistant to percolate this stuff throughout my house, right? And so much like you said,

Matter is a protocol that is supposed to unify all of these things into one thing, because they all currently use different protocols to interact. You might know the hue has like these bridges yep those bridges are a way for it to work with many different protocols because it's like a it's like a rosetta stone it's like a translator or a babblefish like one of those protocols gets sent it hits the hits the bridge and then that converts it into the other protocol that needs to be used for the light or whatever. Okay.

Right? So, Matter is amazing because 300 plus companies that make smart home equipment, including Google, Apple, Amazon, and then all of the main smart home accessory players like TP link and like all these guys came together and they say, okay, cool. We're all going to use matter because they realized that while there are many benefits to having walled gardens, there is also limits to having walled gardens. You know, if you are trying to make an Apple home kit house, but you can only build out, you can only use so many accessories for the Apple HomeKit house, but you want to buy this one accessory that only works with Google Assistant, maybe you think about moving over to Google Assistant.

So Apple actually does have some incentive to actually go out and support this ubiquitous ecosystem. Okay. Right? Now, the really cool thing, this is not dissimilar to how the internet was formed in the first place, right? It's basically, Matter used to be called Chip, which is connected home over IP. And if you know anything about internet protocols, that's really awesome. Because it basically means that all of this stuff is coming through just one singular protocol that is coming through your home. So one fundamental part of Matter is called Thread.

I was just about to ask because I keep hearing – I literally just – I just Googled what is Thread because I remember that it's a thing that's connected to Matter. Okay. Yeah. So Matter is actually just an application layer that's sitting over Wi-Fi plus Thread. And Thread is this really awesome thing that basically allows each individual smart home device to be its own little beacon.

So they're all communicating with each other because the current way that things work are you go to your Google Nest Hub and you say, hey, turn on the light in my bedroom. And that Nest Hub has to connect to the internet, send that data to a Google server somewhere, send it back to your home Wi-Fi, ping it off your Wi-Fi, hit the light, and then turn on the light. But Thread is basically you're making your own little intranet mesh network. Basically, you're making your own little intranet mesh network. And the reason it's called Thread, if you could think about this, is that you have all these little devices and they're all communicating with each other.

Yeah. So like this light is going to this smart audio speaker, which is going to this. And there's kind of like data being sent through all of these devices at the same time to each other. So it's more secure because you have your own little intranet. It's way faster. Which is great for like smart lights, right? Because now you don't say, turn on my light and then it's like, ding. It's just kind of instant. As soon as it recognizes the command, it sends it.

Yeah. And the amazing thing about something like Matter is say you are using Amazon Alexa and you have an Echo in your home, but you really want to use like a Google Nest Audio for your music. Now you can tell Alexa to play music on your Google Nest Audio. Okay, so I'm building this analogy in my head, kind of. And it's how I'm going to try to understand it all, which is like virtual ports.

So we have Lightning and USBbc and mini usb whatever so i'm imagining like you know alexa's or amazon's ecosystem they all used one imaginary port to talk to each other yeah and then made for iphone or home kit was a different port so now if you wanted to use things from two different ecosystems they'd have different ports on them and so something like the phillips hue bridge would be like a box with all of the ports on it, where it's like an adapter, and it would plug into two different things, which is kind of cool. And then it does make sense now, if this new big universal port is coming along to support it, do they also, I guess, continue to support their own individual standards along the side?

I guess it's fine. But if everything supports Matter, then it's whatever. I believe they can. So a lot of devices are going to be launching from this month going forward that will have the little Matter logo on it, which just means you can just set it up super fast and it's really awesome and easy. But a lot of companies have committed

to updating their devices to also support Matter in the future. Oh, that's good. You should still check on the companies that are doing that though, and also look at their like reliability and how likely they are to actually do that. Okay.

Yeah, and like devices will be able to work with Matter, but automations and things like that still rely on the individual ecosystem. Okay. So if you have like a routine or something, that's still going to rely on like the Google Hub or the Apple HomeKit situation. Got it. Yeah. Okay.

But yeah, it's great because it's way faster. It's more secure. And then everything's like a mesh network too, which is cool. So if you have your Google Nest Hub in one room and then you've got a random Philips Hue bulb in the next room and then the next room past that, you've got some Wyze bulb. Even if that Wyze bulb was not like able to connect directly to your Google Nest Hub, because there's devices in between, they literally work as mesh networks. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that. My current smart home situation, it's fine. And it works okay okay because i have a bunch of accessories that all

have google's virtual port if you will um but they are still annoying because nest does make their own like mesh network based on their own protocol and so like i was trying to connect my my uh lock on the back door the other day and it kept trying to use the doorbell on my front door as the mesh network thing. So it wanted to be connected to both at once. And I was running back and forth from the back door to the front door to try to be close enough to get my phone

to pair to both of them so that they would talk to each other. And it was a nightmare. So ironically, the Nest, the old Nest, before Nest got bought by Google, they were the ones that actually got this in motion. Yeah. Because they wanted this to happen.

I think there used to be the Zigbee Alliance, and Zigbee was supposed to be the connecting thread thing. Sounds like a Muppet. Yeah, I know. Matter sounds cooler. The Zigbee Alliance is amazing. Okay. Yeah. But now it's like the connected something alliance.

Cool. Okay. Yeah. So they're just trying to get... So anyway, the news... So this has been in the works for quite a while and it was originally supposed to launch, I think in 2020 and then it got delayed and then it was gonna launch last year and then it got delayed and then it was gonna launch in June of this year and then it got delayed again. But the SDK actually dropped this week, which is amazing, which means there could be a lot of different companies that have been ready to just like ship products that are that are Matter compatible and they have the boxes printed and everything's ready for the holiday season. They just been waiting for Matter to actually drop the official SDK so that they can use it.

But expect to see some products on the holiday shelves coming out for this year that have the logo. And then you should look up like a list of products that are either updating or have committed to updating. By the way, that logo, just because I looked it up because I didn't know what it is. It looks like three curved arrows pointing inwards. Yeah. Which I think that's the idea.

Is that the best way of? Makes sense. Makes sense. Just in case you don't have, you know you're in the car, you can't see what this looks like and you're going to Best Buy and you see this now. I think that's sort of the idea.

It's like Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant, Apple HomeKit, and they're all just like pointing towards each other. Yeah, that's funny. That was the premise of my home tech video when I made it. And I got a couple of comments

that were very highly rated, which was, oh, there's this one service that lets you connect all three of them and it's like it's kind of a hack but it kind of works and you can you can actually use things from home kit and google assistant all in the same thing yeah and it now sounds like this is actually going to be a tenable solution for like most people to to get just whatever they want the fact that you can just go to the store and just buy smart home equipment and just use it yeah the setup process is also supposed to be way easier matter is trying to get everybody to have like just a qr code on their box and it sets up through matter too um but you choose you you still choose like the voice assistant that you want to use and

you have to use that voice assistant for everything but you know the fact that you can play music on your nest audio from your alexa speaker like yeah that's pretty cool that you know it's pretty cool too it's completely open source yeah which is like all these giant private companies that had their own situation going on how do they get them to agree on this that's like the most incredible thing ever the research that i did like from from what I understand, it's literally that they saw like limits to their walled gardens. Oh, they were like, we can't get enough. Like Apple was like, yeah, there's a good amount of HomeKit stuff, but look at that Alexa stuff over there.

There's so many good things that we don't have and people aren't making for HomeKit. What if we could get that supported so people would use Siri more often? Yeah, exactly. I see. They want so people would use Siri more often? Yeah, exactly. I see. They want to use their service way more often. So they're willing to let all of these third parties just like work with everybody. Yeah.

I mean, do you remember Quinn's smart home video maybe like a year ago? Like there are so many hacks and stuff in there because HomeKit seems to be a couple steps behind in terms of like products that work well with it. So I feel like this is awesome for people who use HomeKit. Yeah. Amazon to me, it would always be like Amazon has the biggest selection, but the most variance in quality. Yeah.

HomeKit has the smallest selection, but the highest overall quality of things. And then Google is somewhere in the middle with like some Nest stuff and stuff kind of usually works with Google Assistant. I think we're going to probably do another assistant comparison video i still like google assistant the best so i just want to use the google assistant stuff and that locks me out of the good home kit stuff are we all google assistant people yeah yeah that's what i'm using at home yeah same yeah google assistant i mean traditionally at least has been like the best in terms of like asking you questions locally and yeah yeah and i would just rather use google for those kind of things because if you're best in terms of asking you questions. I love Google. It does this locally. Yeah.

Yeah. And I would just rather use Google for those kind of things, because if you're just asking questions from the internet, Google is obviously the one to go to. Yeah, very fair. Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty awesome.

I've just been waiting for this forever, and the news has been trickling, trickling out. And like Andrew said, I've randomly dropped, like, oh, but Matter, we'll fix this on the podcast. It was like two podcasts ago, you were just like matter i was like yeah man sounds great yeah well now that we know it does sound really good no no i'm pumped i'm most pumped for the fact that it's just like within itself yeah things might happen faster i'm so tired of being like hey g word um like turn on the lights and then then I walk all the way into this still dark room and then the lights pop on.

Yeah, I also have two Philips Hue lights and I don't have a Philips Hue bridge. So every time I walk into that room, I have to open the Philips Hue app to turn those lights on. And I'm so tired. Okay. Yeah. The Philips Hue bridges will be updated,

but future Philips Hue bulbs will not even need them. Okay, I'm just gonna throw out all my Philips Hue stuff. Because of thread, because everything's a mesh network, right? Oh, but in theory, they can update my Philips Hue bulbs will not even need them. Okay, I'm just going to throw out all my Philips stuff. Because of thread, because everything's a mesh network, right? Oh, but in theory, they can update my Philips Hue lamps. Yes. To support matter. Yeah.

I hope they do. As many things as possible, update them. Yeah. How often do you change? Sorry, this is kind of sidetracked, but how often do you change the colors of your Philips Hue bulbs? Almost never. Get a smart switch.

It's so much better than a smart light bulb. I've heard that smart switch so like rather than in my house i got rid of all my smart light bulbs and i have a smart switch so i can still physically turn the switch off all the time without affecting if i can use my voice command i should do that so much better there are lamps oh there are lamps but that's fine though if the switch talks to the lamps okay yeah because right i just just a room with like one light in the middle. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I use the lamps to like light up the room. Yeah. And if I just have a switch on the wall that just turns the lamps on, I don't care about the color. Yeah. Just turn them on. That'd be great. The cool thing about that too is that you could use one switch to turn on a whole group

of lamps, right? Yeah, it'd be two. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. That'd be cool. So I'm going to get a bunch of smart plugs, but I'm currently waiting to see what, over the next like week or two, there should be official smart plugs like dropping with matter okay so i want

to buy matter supported every i'm just going to keep using candles to light my apartment smart candles no can't even are they even rgb candles like rgb what is this someone replied i tweeted that i just want way more lamps in my life. And then yesterday I bought seven different lamps. And someone said, what? You bought seven lamps? Bro, are any of them from Ikea? Oh my God. No.

Ikea has great lamps. Okay, they were so weird and so cool. I got this one that's like a gyroscope globe. You know, the weird rotating around itself kind of thing. Does it move? Where's the light? No. It's just in the center of the globe.

Oh, it moves around it? It doesn't actually move. It just looks cool. It just looks like it should move. It's just in the center of the globe. Oh, it moves around it? It doesn't actually move. It just looks cool. It just looks like it should move. It was $30. I don't know. I don't expect it to move. That's fair.

But I'm going to buy a bunch of smart plugs. I'm just waiting for matter-supported smart plugs. Smart plug or smart bulb? I bought a bunch of dumb bulbs that are the exact color temperature that I want because I'm not someone that would change the color. It's a smart plug for that. Yeah. Makes sense.

Yeah. Tight. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for a whole new category of tech. Yes. And thank you for explaining it to us. Thank you for that.

Now I know. Yeah. Look at me. Now we'll have our minds blown in trivia answers by things we didn't know because I definitely don't know some of these. I think number one I'm going to get wrong. All right. Well, trivia time.

Do you have a whiteboard? Yeah, you do. I think we have both over here. So the score, Marquez has 13. Oh, yeah. Andrew has 11. David has eight. I wasn't on the last two.

Me, me, me. I was in Yosemite. Me, me, me. To be honest, if I could trade some points in to go to Yosemite, I would do it. Is it worth three points to go to Yosemite? Such as since we have no perceived prize yet. Okay. Question number one.

In 1999, a company called Zip2 was acquired by Compaq for $307 million. Which modern-day tech juggernaut was one of the founders? Who wants to go first? Just flip it over. Oh, and read it out loud as you flip for our audio listeners. You still thinking? I'm still thinking. I'll let you think.

That's okay. Take your time. No pressure. You're just five points behind. Oh. Give me the ratio okay okay all right i've gotten 344 twitter replies since the last after oh my god no twitter updates this episode that's crazy that's a new record although yeah we'll double check but i was checking and yeah he was just tweeting about rockets and stuff which is is fine. That's probably what he should be focusing on if we're on it.

If we want him to tweet about something, it's the rockets and the cars. Cybertruck updates. Yeah, how's Cybertruck doing? No tweets. No tweets on it. You got one? Yeah. All right.

Ready? Yeah. David, you want to say it first? Oh, man, I suck. Elon. I also wrote Elon. I also wrote Elon. And you wrote Bill Gates.

Yeah. Wait, you said it was a competitor to Compaq? Oh, sold to Compaq? No, it was acquired by Compaq for $307 million. And he got seven percent of that i think something like that which was 22 million yeah elon's been part of so many like micro major tech things like the paypal mafia and all that stuff i just yeah i figured i figured elon would be good because of all the twitter madness yeah yeah i remember reading that yeah i don't too i

wonder what they did they provided city guide based softwares to newspapers and other publications oh I thought this was a compression thing I was just so off on this entire

website it's okay zip recruiter that's a free ad man wow no time passed since we answered that last question

perfect alright question number two I don't know the word I don't know No, time passed since we answered that last question. Perfect. All right. Question number two. I don't know. The word... I don't know. I'm just going to write a year now. Wait, I forgot.

What year did the movie come out? No, it's a book. A book. Yeah. Finish the question. Okay. I already wrote it. The word metaverse was originally coined in a science fiction novel called Snow Crash.

What year was the novel published? And we're looking for the closest year. So only one of you is getting a point. Unless two of you get the exact year. What if three of us get the exact year? Then we win. If we all wrote the same year. Then we all lose because then we have the same amount of points.

There's no shot we all wrote the same year. I swear I've read this Wikipedia page 8,000 times and I don't remember. But I'm guessing. Ready? Nice. Oh, we're kind of close so i wrote 1969 no i wrote 1982 i wrote 1972 oh really but who's the closest who do you think is the closest me yeah it is you i was gonna do smartest man alive baby damn I can't man it's been a while

since you guys have gotten one right so he wrote that 96 was it 96 it was 92 oh what

if I had guessed my second guess no way really felt very 80s Snow Crash came out in 92 I did think it was

gonna be the 80s too but it was 92 I thought this book kicked off the whole cyberpunk aesthetic I don't know that I only know that Metaverse oh maybe that was the Necromancer I did think it was going to be the 80s too. I thought this book kicked off the whole cyberpunk aesthetic. I don't know that. I only know that Metaverse. Maybe that was the Necromancer.

Also don't know that. I read books. That was the most convincing. I got it right. Was it really 1992? I could have come up with this concept in like 1930. This guy is not that smart oh yeah then why didn't you

sounds easy what were you doing in 1930 who's to say my grandma didn't okay that was it okay I was ready for the third one I was like I don't remember the third question I always want a third one maybe not till our extra special trivia bonanza season finale

I haven't decided if it's a trivia bonanza or a trivia extravaganza. I like extravaganza. What about extravabananza? It's extra. It is extra, but bonanza is so fun. I take bonanza. Extravaganza is an extra bonanza.

Well, baganza? I can't argue with that one. I'll check the math on that. Where did the G come from? I don't know. What's the etymology of extravaganza? I would like to know. That's a good place to end this podcast.

Vaganza. Extravaganza. Thanks for listening this week. We appreciate you all. Thanks for subscribing. The Clips channel is close to a certain milestone. If you haven't headed over there and watched the Clips, you should go subscribe.

But also subscribe to the main podcast because that's when you get the first dibs on everything we talk about during the week. Catch you guys in the next one. you we're wrong about twitter again what we're gonna wait for us produced by adam melina and ellis rovan we are a partner with vox media podcast network and our intro outro music was created by vane sill Vein Syl. Bye.