Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - All About Apple Vision Pro!

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

It's Apple Vision Pro week! Marques sits down with Andrew and David to answer all their questions and even a few that we scraped from the YouTube comments of the videos we put out this week. If you want to know whether or not you can use the Apple Vision Pro with a Windows computer or if you can hot swap the battery, this is the episode for you. Afterwards, we talk about how the new App store rules in the EU before wrapping it all up with trivia. Links: MKBHD Apple Vision Pro Unboxing: https://bit.ly/42rqkbm MKBHD Using Apple Vision Pro: https://bit.ly/3w2BwyX WSJ Apple Vision Pro video: https://bit.ly/3u7cZIw Verge Decapitated a Mac story: https://bit.ly/3UkAF6M Vacuuming in AR: https://bit.ly/48WQMM5 F1 AR Render: https://bit.ly/49gcY3K Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Instagram/Threads/Twitter: Waveform: https://twitter.com/WVFRM Waveform: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David Imel: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin TikTok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We're your hosts. I'm Marques. I'm Andrew. And I'm David. Why do you seem slightly uneasy? That was like a delay. Okay, so for audio listeners, I am currently wearing the Apple Vision Pro. I'm probably not the only one doing a podcast wearing the Vision Pro, but there is something weird to it. You can see my eyes, right?

Yeah. Eye, I would say. You can see at least one of my eyes. You can tell I'm looking through at you guys. This is basically Apple Vision Pro week on the channel, on the main channel anyway, having all of our coverage, the unboxing, covering what was new, reviewing the thing. And I feel like the podcast is a great format for just like Q and A. Lots of people ask questions on social media, but you guys could probably also ask lots of questions.

And I promise you, I have all the answers. Every single answer. Every single one? Every one. To update, I currently have a stopwatch going because Marques is going to try and hold these. I think everyone's question always is how heavy is it? Is it that heavy? You're trying to set the dual band, the dual loop band, dual loop band. I have a stopwatch going. It's going to add like five

minutes, but we're going to periodically throughout here, check in every 15, 20 minutes, see how you're holding it up. Yeah. So I will start by saying most of the footage that we've done with the Vision Pro so far was with this solo knit band. This is a really cool looking band. This is the band that's in most of the ads. This is the band that's in like most people's footage. And it's this cool, like mesh that expands and has a dial in it that you twist to tighten it. It's super cool. Yeah. But it's not as comfortable as a dual loop band because it's only the back of your head. And basically it pulls all of the weight onto the front of your face. And I get this cheek fatigue and above the eye fatigue, uh, pretty quickly. And I've,

I have not been able to wear it with this band for more than an hour without being kind of exhausted and having to take it off. So this dual loop band, which I'm wearing now, also adds a strap like right over your head where my headphones are. And so now it's kind of lifting it off of the cheekbone a little bit and it's much more comfortable. And I bet I could wear this for much longer. So we'll see. For long periods of time, I highly, highly, highly recommend.

And this comes with it, but I would highly recommend the dual loop band for sure. When you say for long periods of time like at a certain point should you just put that one on and not like would you put this back on to just be like oh i'm barely using it and i look cooler using the benefit of this one is it messes up your hair slightly less and it's faster to put on and adjust this one's got like velcros you got to adjust and slide and then put back on and you have to find the velcro and maybe you're only only using it for like a five ten minute session you just put this on yeah which really bodes well for like at the apple store setup you want to go test it this does look

miles better and also it's so cool when you like see when you turn the dial and you see it like slowly grasp onto the person's head yeah with these like nice orange bands that can expand and contract in there. It's full engineering for a headband, for sure. Can I say something before we get into this? Because I know we have a lot of stuff to get into. I love how interesting this headset is because it's flawed. Yeah. I think that we've, for the last year especially,

if you look at YouTube comments about new tech that's come out, new smartphones especially, oh my God, this is so boring. This is just a spec bump. There's no risk. This isn't even interesting. Why is this even a video? All the flatline has occurred, like the plateau.

We've reached peak smartphone. All of that comment, we've seen all of that a thousand times. Yeah. Especially from Apple and phones. No new iPads for a year, like tablet. All this stuff is so stagnant. This is interesting. This has lots of really high heights.

It has lots of places where it falls short. It has trade-offs, pros and cons, flaws that come with how cool it is. It is so much more interesting than the boring stuff we expect every year. So that's why I like it. Part of that reason is because Apple is great at designing things they're great at making sure things are really good so when we say things are unapple like it's because it doesn't work

it's basically flawlessly and this has a lot of unapple like things yeah and there's they also exist in a lot of very mature categories yeah so like we know what a laptop is so when we get a new laptop year after year after year it's like yeah we're refining at this point this is a first gen product and it has all of the telltale signs of a first gen product the battery life sucks it's heavy it's expensive there's not that many apps but the promise of the future is also super interesting i do have to say like i uh I had dinner with Viren from The Verge last night, who's like their video director there. And we were talking a lot about Vision Pro

because we both used it pretty extensively. And we were both saying like, yeah, like phones have gotten to the point where they're just so freaking boring to make videos about and stuff. But 10 years ago, I could not have imagined that something like this would exist in real life like when you use it for the first time it's pretty amazing and then later you're just like this is a sci-fi technology yeah really it like you can look at the screen recordings of what it looks like to be wearing the vision pro and just see things floating around you and just like casting shadows

and sitting and like yeah you could watch a Star Trek episode and someone would probably put on a headset and start manipulating stuff in space. That's literally what that is. And because the technology has kind of progressed progressively over the last 10 years, it doesn't it's not as shocking because it didn't just come out of nowhere. A lot of the elements of the Vision Pro are still so far ahead of other headsets that it does still feel really advanced but 10 years ago anything like this would be magic yeah i think that's part of the reason why it feels so flawed in some aspects is because it is so far ahead and a lot of things that came out but then the way apple marketed it

some of those things they marketed are far behind. It's also just flawed because no one knows what to do with it. Well, yeah, that is like... It's pointless right now. Can I ask a quick question? Yeah. You're at a different angle than me. You can see both of his eyes.

I can see both of his eyes. I cannot. Interesting. I can see... Oh, now I can only see one eye. Now I can. Can you go back to how you were looking at both of us? I want to take a picture.

I can see that. We'll put it in the video version. Okay, I'll take a picture too. Yeah. I can see David, Marquez's eye, and then the Waveform logo. Yeah. Okay, so. I can see both of his eyes.

Yeah, for audio listeners, there's a very distinct feature of this headset that no other VR headset has. And that's a screen facing the outside. Oh, yeah. Okay, so it's facing. It's not for me at all. It's literally for the people around me and the like sort of highlighted feature you've seen in the ads is called eyesight and it's supposed to put your eyes on the outside of the headset it's got this lenticular film over

it so it's a three it's got this depth effect supposed to sync it into the headset it gives you this feeling of being able to connect with the outside world maybe even make eye contact uh and you can tell when i am in pass-through mode because you can see my eyes and then when i go to the moon real quick you have this uh blue purple film that goes over the front of it that makes you know that okay now i'm in the headset at least logically that's what's supposed to be happening i don't know that it works as well as people were hoping. It's not nearly as bright as the videos. And low resolution. And also this dome, this glass dome on my face is so reflective

that literally every light source is just like beams of lights all over my face. They need to use the new Galaxy S24 glass. Yeah, they need it to be anti-glare in some way. And I kind of, we were talking about like, why didn't they make it matte glass or something like that? And I think that that would mess with the outward facing sensors. I don't think you can do that.

I think we came to the conclusion that it would either potentially mess with the sensors or the sensors would have to be a different glass, therefore being way more obvious and look bad. Yeah, I think ironically, something i'm excited for in version two is just the resolution and brightness of eyesight being better yeah outside yeah yeah i was the most excited marquez headed on i was like do you have eyesight set up and he's like yeah i was like oh i wanted to see it being creepy and then he's like you can't see it i was like no and then he like looked me straight in the

eyes i was like there it is. Yeah. I guess. For a thumbnail of our second Vision Pro video that we put out on the main channel, we literally have a comparison of the ad versus what it actually looks like. The ad makes it look so much higher resolution and so much brighter. And they definitely were just tracking that. And had it in a perfectly reflectionless room.

Yeah. Yeah. But also also so like i took a picture of it and threw it on twitter and a lot of people are like well if you're on a plane and the the flight attendant comes by it's darker right and like we turn the lights on sometimes off yes sometimes but like even when it's dark as it's not pitch black there's a reflection somewhere and it's picking the reflection up it is still going to distract or like take over space on that and even still it's very dim and very yeah i know that like the reflections don't bother me that much i i see them and i notice them but i can mostly pay

attention to the eyes it's just the fact that that lenticular film like makes the resolution pretty low really and then also the brightness just needs to be a lot better the viewing angle is really like i'm saying right now i'm seeing the viewing one of marquez's eyes and like a lot unless you're kind of in a perfect like five degree angle where you can see both of them it's almost like you know those protective business uh screen protectors that people put on their it feels like that privacy shield privacy shields yeah yeah i have a hot take for this okay even if eyesight was perfect it's still a dumb idea well it's funny though dude i kind of like it just take it even though it's okay if you're looking

at someone just take just take it off no 100 okay well riddle me this do you think transparency mode in headphones is a dumb idea that's just take it off okay okay i agree on that i like i like adam's boomer route me personally as a fellow boomer i would take my headphones out with transparency mode i would take this off but i do understand that we've gotten to the point where we're okay with technology and that isn't considered rude so this may be in 10 years i see that being okay i still feel if it were working but i feel like i don't feel like marquez is being rude by looking at us through that we also told them to put it on yeah i think it i don't know i think it's also just weird you think someone should take the headset off to talk to you yes just

take i don't i feel like it's the same thing i've i've had to slowly get used to like when i have headphone like noise canceling headphones on, leaving them on, but switching to transparency mode and then talking to the person. And then once they leave, how fast do I turn the music back on? Yeah. That's why the Sony thing where you can just touch it and then talk to them and then let go is pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, this still has the first gen drawback of still being very notable and pretty big and awkward.

So imagine, I don't know, first-gen... It's hard to make a comparison because there's nothing quite like it, but the first-gen iPhone, when it came out, was a pretty expensive, pretty weak, technically speaking, device that just had some revolutionary, magical-feeling controls.

You know? Yeah. I feel like this arguments come up a lot not just on this but also in other things we've talked about um aipin rabbit r1 it's like when the iphone first came out everyone thought it was like doesn't make sense or when the ipad first come out the reactions were this it's like they're all really reasonable reactions and sure this could go a long way but like that we shouldn't just disregard all of the things that feel like they don't make sense just because maybe in the future this will be awesome yeah i saw some of

those and i totally agree i think you have to draw more parallels than just when it first came out people didn't like it i think there are certain things about it that people don't like. And certain things about it that are the reason why it ended up overcoming that stuff. So, like, if you look, if you just go to first-gen iPhone, if you want to use that example, yeah, it was super expensive. That's an obvious reason why a lot of people didn't get it. There was also a carrier exclusive.

But also, there were no apps. You couldn't change your wallpaper. There were lots of restrictions. It didn't have Flash in the browser. Yeah, lots of restrictions. It didn't have Flash in the browser. Yeah, lots of restrictions. But when people used it, they really felt very intuitive with the controls, with the direct manipulating the thing on the screen,

and that was new and really, really fun and intuitive to use. And so people wanted that idea to continue and blossom despite all of its downfalls. And now you draw the parallels to this. Okay. I think what Apple is probably trying to feel like is, all right, revolutionary input device. How do we do this again?

The eye thing where you look directly at the item you're controlling is very impressive. It feels very, very close to like psychic, like magic. But sometimes it is kind of annoying. Yeah. It of annoying fatiguing for sure i did i did actually get to put it on and try it briefly so now i know what you guys are talking about i don't know if we want to hop into that right away but yeah the clicking things with your hand was really cool and i mean like pretty much by your side it's cool you're kind of annoyed by it when you have to when you're using an interface where you have to do it a lot like if you're trying to use that for the keyboard and do that yeah it kind of hurts your eyes because our eyes are not used to doing this they're used to like snapping and staying there and then snapping back and it's not like it kind of gives me a

headache you know and also on top of that until you feel comfortable it's not just like you're looking at a n d r e w you're looking at A, N, D, R, E, W. You're looking at A, up to that register, N, up to that register, D, up to that register. You're adding another thing every time. And you have to understand now that if you look back at the screen, you're not looking at the keyboard. So it's essentially an extra input every single time. There is a really weird thing that your brain does when you're trying to use this headset where your body and your brain says i need to move my head in order to change what i'm what i'm uh selected on but you really just have to move your eyes so it's almost like the like patting your head and rubbing your belly

thing like you only need to do one of them but your body is just like i need to be looking around but it is still an extra input because it's following your eyes. So if you think about it, you don't just go D-A-V-I-D. You go D-up-V-up. Yeah, no. So it's like, it's way more. It's input, but it's still more that you have to process. You have to rub your belly and pat your head. Yeah.

Like, it's hard. Yeah. It's hard. As soon as you start to try to do more than one task at once, that's when it becomes a little bit of an extra step to have to look at exactly what you're doing. Like any like if you're just using a Mac and you have a window open and your input devices, your keyboard, you're not staring at your keyboard as you input. You're looking at something that you're not controlling. That's the difference. You're looking at something that you're not controlling. controlling. That's the difference. You're looking at something that you're not controlling. Where in this, if I have a window open and a keyboard, I can stare at the keyboard the entire time as I type. But the second I look up to check it, none of the typing works. I'm now just tapping things that I wasn't intending to tap. I have to look back down at the keyboard. And there's all

kinds of little moments like that. Like if I have more than one window open, when I have like my Mac connected and I have a Vision Pro app over here. Yeah. What's awesome is my keyboard and trackpad still work. So if I have a messages app open over here and the Mac here, I will look over at the messages app. The keyboard and trackpad still work.

I'll reply to a message in the Vision Pro app with the Mac keyboard. Yeah. But then I look back as i'm finishing typing the message and it's now typing back in google docs oh can we do we know if we confirmed so that's when you're connected to your mac have we confirmed you can connect a bluetooth keyboard or something straight to it yeah you can you can okay is there enough computing power to run multiple things where like you see that as a valid option

or does it make more sense to be connected to a Mac? I would use a... Oh, you're saying would you go on the go and compute without even a Mac at all? Yep. That's one of the questions I pulled from YouTube, so I'll just scratch that off. No, that's a good question.

It's an M2 chip with Safari and... In my eyes, that makes the difference between... It's a netbook. That's right. They're selling this as this new computing input device, right? If the difference between is I don't have enough bandwidth to just throw a Bluetooth keyboard on this, then to me, this is just a new monitor,

not a new computing system. Sure. Sort of. Obviously, there's a lot more nuances there. I think the apps that are built in, you can get real computing system. Sure. Sort of. Obviously, there's a lot more nuances. Yeah, I think so the apps that are built in, you can get real computing done. It's not quite as powerful as if you know your way around a Mac or a computer. So if I'm just doing like Google Docs writing and I have a couple tabs open some browser windows and researching and writing a script or something like that. Yeah,

I could do this without a Mac at all. But the second you have like four different apps open at the same time and maybe one of them is only available on the mac or maybe you wanted spotify in the background but now you have to have that as a browser tab like it starts to get annoying i have a question yeah you can have safari as an app that you can run in vision pro but they only allow you to do one display of safari did they ever say no you can no no so safari you can have as many windows and as many tabs open in Vision Pro. I actually don't know the limit, but you can have more than one. Don't tell David that. Oh, sorry, it's the

Mac thing. So if you're paralleling from your Mac, you can only display one window of your Mac and then you can have other stuff. Exactly. Did they say why that's the case? They didn't say why. I wonder if that's a compute thing, if that's a... Because it'd be really nice if I was editing in Final Cut, but I also had some other Mac

application that I wanted to... Oh, yeah. No, that's the first thing I wanted to do. I mean, my editing setup in Final Cut Pro is two monitors, one full screen with the video preview. So if I want to do animations or text or color graphics, and then the other with the timeline and the clip spin and everything. That's so frustrating, and I don't understand why that's a limitation. It's not the same thing like they don't have enough PCIe lanes because that's what they did with the M1 chip

and why they don't allow multiple displays on the MacBook Air. Yeah, I would suspect it's something to do with, I mean, it's literally wirelessly transmitting this to the headset. I suspect there's just a total amount of pixels that you can mirror before it gets crazy.

And you know what's funny? So we were doing, when we were making this review, there's two ways to screen record actually. Yeah. You can screen record

using the built-in screen recording in the headset and that will show you exactly what I'm seeing but it'll export a 1080p video and the video will have

what's called foveated rendering which means that only what I'm looking at with my actual eyeballs is sharp and in focus. And if you look around the rest of the frame, you'll notice it's actually blurry and lower resolution out of focus.

And that's because that's totally fine for the way I see it in the headset. If I look down the middle at some text and that's crisp and rendered, my eyes don't really care about what else is happening in my field of view. Right. The other way to screen record is to connect it to Xcode and it's in developer mode,

and then we can do full resolution screen recordings on the Mac. Without foveated rendering. Without foveated rendering. And we have some of those clips as well in the review. Those clips all stutter the headset. They slow it all down. Any scrolling starts to get choppy and that's just more sharp pixels being rendered and sent and i i do think there's a compute limit somewhere in

there so maybe that's why they i kind of feel like that's one of the reasons why i can't do two mac displays the interesting thing about that though is that like the mac is the thing that's power that's processing everything so the only thing that's coming in is the wireless input is the input yeah just a bit that's that just means well bandwidth thing yeah yeah in terms of i guess just a bit like in terms of just a window it would be so sick if in a world where final cut straight up is on this and you're like i just have this like giant timeline and then your your viewing screen is pushed back and like a big wide screen and you have like all your color wheels over here and you require final cut for vision that would be nasty and i want that i i feel like so much of this podcast is going to be speculating how sick an

app could be inside of this but that would also mean my media has to also be on the vision pro pro you it comes in i've got the terabyte store yeah the last video was well over so that's tough oh yeah oh i just want to say not to defend the the old zuckerberg skull cooker but on meta quest pro and three uh that thing gets hot my brow is sweating but um you i can run three full-size monitors on the remote desktop. Oh. Do you happen to know the resolution of those desktop monitors? I will have to double-check, but it seems like they run them in full resolution. I really don't.

It might be foveated. No, maybe, because I have the square monitor and then a normal 10-16 monitor. Right. And then so it does like the square and the 10-16. It populates as a dual up? Yeah, yeah. And then I can add a third monitor that doesn't even exist in real life. That's also a big way.

So that's interesting. I think there may be a difference in the process of what they're doing. I'm sure, yeah. I think that what's happening in the Quest is literally screen mirroring. That wouldn't surprise me. And what's happening in the Mac is a new virtual display. It's not mirroring the screen of the Mac. So it's a totally new resolution of new rendering happening. And now that I think about it, I don't think they're full resolution displays.

Because when you take off the headset and look at my computer monitors they're cropped by about two-thirds yeah and then it's rendering it's mirroring that yeah yeah yeah i don't know i know that everyone makes parallels to the iphone and i think it makes sense to make parallels to these things i just want to say that like correlation does not equal causation. Totally fair. Something that like everyone loves to say, oh, because it doesn't make sense and it's new and expensive, that means it will succeed. And like, that's obviously not true. And then also the iPhone had a very clear thing of you can replace your iPod and your phone and this. Are you getting it? Are you getting it?

You can replace these three things in one. And this is like, you can do stuff in VR. And when he said that, the crowd instantly was like, oh, we're getting it. Yeah, we're getting it. Whereas this is just like, it's not replacing anything really. It's just a new paradigm completely,

which is something that has to be seen. Yeah, okay. Here's two uses that I think are totally unique to Vision Pro. And also, I just want to note, we've just passed 20 minutes on the timer. I am feeling the first of the fatigue start in the middle of my forehead now. And this is with dual strap.

With the dual loop. Better strap. But two things that are totally unique to Vision Pro. One is, and it's super niche, but it's editing videos on the plane. And I could probably expand this to doing a bunch of things on an airplane. But take someone like me, for example, trying to edit in Final Cut Pro on a laptop on the plane. But it's a top secret Vision Pro unboxing, so the person next to me can't see it. Or I'm just uncomfortable with that person seeing what I'm editing.

A Vision Pro unboxing, but you're wearing the vision. It's a new top secret thing. It's an embargoed OnePlus 12 review. Okay, so that's happening on the plane. So the person next to me, I don't want them to be able to see this. So I literally, I have the headset on, it blacks out my max display.

And now not only are they, is the privacy now factor, I can now make the display as big as I want. So I have a new, larger display I can take with me anywhere I go. There's probably coffee shop people that would do the same thing, but I'm using the airplane as the example. That's a new thing for Vision Pro. And then the other thing is,

I mean, technically just watching VR videos or watching videos in a virtual theater environment or something like that, like this new media watching experience, which this could be the largest display, the largest TV in somebody's life, technically. This, that you can only watch by yourself. That you can only watch by yourself

and only watch things that are into the headset via apple tv or disney plus and or safari and doesn't have any inputs to play games that aren't on the headset small cat super fruit ninja though this is like making me do you remember when there was that trend of people like taking the score buying broken macbooks so they could just use the computer and the keyboard yeah that seems like it could potentially happen for this like that on the plane then you don't have your screen open and the person in front of you potentially leaning back and snapping your screen on deck yeah but yeah just the deck yeah that that would be so that's a short or a video that's potentially funny i found a verge article about when that happened it's called honey i decapitated the macbook converting the laptop into the slab top is surprisingly free.

Andrew, you discovered a really funny prank with the Vision Pro a few days ago too. Did I? Where you slid your arms. Oh, we did confirm this works. The scenario of this happening never would really happen. Yeah, please don't do this to people. But do you know how like there's times where, I don't know if you're in like class or something and you have to do a challenge where one person

is like the arms of the other person. You're like behind them and you reach through their- Through their, under their armpits, yeah. So Marquez was in the Vision Pro, put his arms behind his back and I slid my arms through his and then he looked at things and went click and I could click my hands and it would start,

it would register all of them. It would register. Despite our complexion being quite different. Yeah. I think Vision Pro fairly assumes that if there are hands in this bubble, they're probably yours. But you're right. You can totally hijack someone's. It's so reminiscent of the what was it?

Pixel four controversy of being able to unlock someone's phone with their face without their eyes being open so you could like do face a lot just like shine it at your partner while they were sleeping and then there was all controversy like if you're doing that you should and then Google actually issued an update so it had to use your eyes like blink I forgot it had to eat just like registered your eyeballs yeah to. To be fair, after we tested that, we did test your hands being out and me just putting my hand in and trying to click and it did not work. Yeah. It can only do one set of hands.

Yeah. Oh, man. There's so many more. We should try one of your hands and one of my hands. I think it would be fine. I think it would work. I mean, I think that's good because, I don't know, maybe you are a person that has like a prosthetic hand and if it just recognizes any hand, it doesn't have, maybe you are a person that has like a prosthetic hand

and if it just recognizes any hand, it doesn't have to be yours. That's a really interesting point. That's better. Yeah, they pinch. They're a certain way. Yeah. That would still work.

Yeah. I think that's a good accessibility thing. Yeah. And I don't think it's that much of a security risk. No, that would like almost never happen. It's on your face. It was funny that it did happen. Also, even if you put your hands

through the other person's like like armholes you can't see what they're seeing so why does it matter it would have to be so specific like your screen mirror yeah like look at safari look at it look at it click yes okay now look at the url bar mkbhg.com i want to make a movie about that heist all right well we're at 28 minutes now. I haven't taken it off yet. I think we should take a quick break. And maybe when we come back, we'll do some Q&A, rapid fire stuff. Because I'm telling you, I got all the answers. I just need to format all my thoughts for the review video.

But we should do that. So before we do that quick break, we should do modified trivia. Trivia. I refuse to believe Marques isn't searching the answers. Oh, I was about to say that. Actually, I'll know when he's, what's the question? You're saying, what was the first year that the statue of the king was born? That wasn't a valid question.

But I'm just saying you could, oh no, I hate this. I really don't want this to get normalized. It bothers me. June 17th, oh no. I hate this. I really don't want this to get normalized. It bothers me. June 17th, 1885. Really? You just did that? That was when the Statue of Liberty was delivered. Yep.

Wow. Yeah. 1885. I don't know how to enforce fairness anymore. It's like two years after. Because we can watch him typing in the air. Yes. Okay, points don't matter for this one. How about that? But he can watch him typing in the air. Yes. Okay.

Points don't matter for this one. How about that? But he can type with his eyes though. He can just go like. You may have noticed Marquez has said this is both modified trivia and points free trivia and he's correct.

That's because yesterday we taped the latest installment of Waveform Trivia Extravaganza which should be out next week. I won. I won. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't i shouldn't say adam won it's adam i won really adam and i are the winners every time yeah um what are you doing i know you're doing something because i see that blue glow Hello. Nothing.

Jimmy, pay attention to me. Luckily for us, I'm pretty sure this question is both un-Google-able and a little sneak peek of the kind of stuff that you guys are going to hear next week in Trivia Extravaganza. So, Marques Andrew David, which legendary mobile device was more expensive at launch? 1996's Palm Pilot Professional or 2002's T-Mobile slash Danger? Sidekick. Marques, you will not be able to Google this question. Challenge accepted. I promise. What are you clicking?

I see it. We don't have a camera that has Marques' hands on screen, but he's clicking away right now. So if I ask someone for a PPP loan, would it mean the small business loan that was given out for COVID or a Palm Pilot Professional loan? Because it was so expensive. Wait, Palm Pilot Professional, what was the other thing called?

The PPP loan. It's like the small business loan that the government gave people. Well, I don't know. You deserve to know the government gave people. It's a, well, I don't know. I, I, you deserve to know the question cause you have to answer it, but I don't trust you.

PPP loan is paycheck protection program. They gave it to small business. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Did you know that? We'll see you next time. All off quick and secure withdrawals. Get more everything with FanDuel Sportsbook and Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600. Visit connectsontario.ca.

All right, welcome back. Before we hop into questions, I just thought of an app idea for the Vision Pro. Okay. Okay, so you see that- App developers get ready. App developers get ready. So you see eyes when you are looking at someone, right? So the whole thing is that you are looking at them and you're paying attention to them and it's glossed over

when you're in something can someone make an app that just shows your eyes so that when like you're you know playing on the vision pro doing something cool and then like your mom or your sister comes and distracts you you can just turn it on so they think you're paying attention to them but you're really still in vision bro so it just disables the blue glow yeah and then shows your eyes you could call it realize realize realize just call it realize realize true lies just saying true lies that way you can stay in your vr even when your pesky parents are trying to get you to do things should i keep this headset on for this entire segment? You should keep it on for the whole. I want to see if you can last the entire episode.

Okay. Even the segment that doesn't have to do a Vision Pro. I will try. Because I have a question. Yeah. Now that you've been wearing it for half an hour, do you feel eye strain in the same way the Oculus series sometimes do? No eye strain.

Damn. The strain with vision pro is purely weight i want to use it longer but the first three times i used it i used it for about half an hour and then afterwards for about an hour i couldn't focus on anything close to me does that mean we need glasses if it makes our eyes me yeah i because the oculus makes my eyes hurt you know what i think is part of it so the default with vision pro is pass-through mode so you don't really spend a lot of time in virtual environments unless you decide to so most of the time you're looking at what the camera feed is showing you

from the outside and it does look very very close to real but it is notably a little bit more compressed dynamic range like it's a little muted yeah Like if you were showing me like an iPhone camera, like if this light up here was actually dramatically brighter in the headset, I think that would be more fatiguing. But when I look at the light, the shutter speed changes and everything gets dimmer. Like everything stays kind of within this sort of small range.

It's like what the iPhone does. Yeah, it's the same. It still is a screen though burning your eyes it is a screen wait shutter speed doesn't change does it i thought iso only changed no it changes shutter speed too it changes both so and it gets like weird if you are in low light you know that's always high it's just that it adjusts in a high range so you can't yeah so if you but good question if you go to low enough light what happens the question or the answer most people suspect is it would get really wonky and bad what mostly happens is apple tries to keep shutter speed high enough to keep things crisp and in order to do that you

have to crank iso camera people you know that usually results in a lot of noise so yes when you're in low light it tries to keep things visible and sharp, and therefore it is more noisy, and it adds this noise reduction and softens things a bit, and it looks like you're looking at a low-light camera feed. Yep. So it works way better in well-lit environments. It's an iPhone strapped to your face. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a camera. Okay, what else do you want to know? You are big on to-do apps and you mentioned it does have a to-do app what is the to-do app it just you pin it and it has a checklist in vision pro yeah so there is no to-do app i'm looking at the there's no apps yeah so i've installed my own which is an iphone app and it shows up in the compatible apps any ipad app basically any ipad app where the developer has checked the box and maybe that adds a few lines of code it will show

up in the app store and that will work so there oh there is things so recently the to-do list app called things added a vision pro specific app okay i haven't tried it yet it's like 30 bucks i imagine there's some fun immersive features that they've added that I haven't tried it yet. It's like 30 bucks. I imagine there's some fun, immersive features that they've added that I haven't tried. It's 30 bucks? Things is crazy. Imagine 30 bucks.

30 bucks per platform. What? I bought things for Mac and it was $50. And then I went to go download the iPhone version and it was like five more dollars, please. And it's 30 more dollars

in the VR headset. Anyway, so things, please don't do that. Really? 30 five more dollars, please. And it's 30 more dollars in the VR headset. Anyway, so things, please don't do that. Really? 30 bucks? Okay, cool. Is it good? It's good, but it's not on Android, so I can't really. This is my idea for a to-do list app in VR.

And for 30 bucks, I think it better do this. You should be able to pin your to-do things on different things throughout your house. A thousand percent. No, no, no, no, no. no yes what do you mean yes the laundry basket i walk by and i see a little thing that's like finish laundry it's what it should be is different priority tasks are given different speeds and they gradually chase you around so the things that you really have to get done you turn around and it's like that is an idea while the less important things,

they're just sort of bizarre. You know what Joanna did in her review? I haven't tried this app yet, but there's a cooking app. Yeah. And there's, it'll have like a recipe that stays like pinned on the cabinet and you can always look over at it

and it'll be able to set timers for you and you can hold the timer down and place it on the thing that it applies to. Oh, multiple timers. So like a pot could have like a five minute timer. Boiling water timer, oven timer. That's exactly what she did in the video. She put it over the two different things.

It was cool. But at the same time, um, you could just cook, which we've been doing for a thousand years. Let him cook. So this is the thing. There are lots of instances where it's like, you could just do it the way you've always done it. And I agree. It's a lot more effort to are lots of instances where it's like, you could just do it the way you've always done it, and I agree. I feel like it's a lot more effort to add all of these things on top of your world.

But the promise of how great it could be if there was a lighter, better version of this headset is amazing. Okay, so did you see this on Twitter? There's like a vacuuming app. I did that, yeah. And it was literally, it literally, have you seen this?

I've seen this. It literally just looks at what you're vacuuming and will highlight it so that you know where you haven't vacuumed yet. Wait, I can complete the level of your house. I can explain it to Ellis where he'll probably understand. Have you ever watched Power Wash simulator games? Yo, I need this. You haven't seen that? No, no, I know what you're talking about.

Just like, I'm so bad at maintaining the grid pattern when I vacuum. This is exactly what you need. This should grade you after also. Yeah, like the Mr. Beast touch app thing. Here's another one. While we're talking about possible killer apps, there was a render somebody made of like watching an F1 race.

Hold on, I'll pull them up. He DM'd us actually. Okay. So you know how hard it is normally to watch an F1 race? You're just looking at the camera feed and it's just cutting back and forth between a bunch of different like placement races, but you don't really see the whole track and you don't know what's going on and where they are. So there was this render somebody made. I don't think it's

a real app. John Lepore. Okay. At Johnny Motion. So they had essentially the whole track layout on the coffee table. So you could see where all the cars were on the track, who was pitting, where the races were happening and feeds of the different races happening around the track yeah i think he was watching the tv of the general feed and then his coffee table had the track with all those yeah i forget if it was i think it was cars yeah yeah or at least just like where each number of each person was um that would be better than the current way did he actually make this or i think it's a render it's a render hold on let me find it so you can see it yeah it's really cool this was posted on the formula one um subreddit and everyone was like their normal app doesn't even work there's zero chance that formula one's actually gonna think look how sick this is that's dope that stuff that i keep seeing on

social media of like cool ideas people have that feels like that's exciting for the future of this form factor. Yeah, we're just not there yet. I do think app developers should start making these apps now, even though there's a chance that this form factor doesn't work out because five years down the line, they're going to be on vision pro two or three. And I don't know, I mean, a big argument that people are making uh notably netflix youtube and spotify are not on vision pro apps and the kind of funny thing about that is that all ipad and iphone apps automatically got ported to be working on vision pro unless you specifically opted out which means that they intentionally were like no um and so you're making a decision that you don't want to be on this new platform

right uh but it it makes a lot of sense to like be in this new pair i i completely forgot lost my train of thought so i think you should just back up wait no no hold on and i totally can i but i kind of wanted to go off that because you mentioned ipad apps yeah and there is an instagram app on this right i'm excited about the age of dashboards. If that's like the only contribution we really get out of this whole thing is that like we get more cool dashboards, like the way you were describing the F1, right? So that's essentially a dashboard with all these different stuff on it. Yeah, because it had like it also had the leaderboard and had like different ways.

Exactly. Or the pot, the cooking pot timer. No, it's also a dashboard i think the fun thing is that we just like there are so many things that we can't imagine yet that you could do in spatial stuff and so people are way more creative than we are and are going to make things that blow our minds over and over again yeah i feel like this is going to be great when the form factor is the meta glasses. Yeah. And right now it's just... But also when the form factor is the meta glasses, you know what you don't need?

A screen on the front to show your eyes. That's a very good point. And I think that's why it's... Okay. And I'm probably going to say this at some point in the review, but I'm pretty sure Vision Pro is the first time Apple's done a first-gen product with the word pro in the name. Yeah.

I think the first thing you do on your Apple is make a non-pro with no eyes, right? You mean after this? After this, yes. So you have Vision Pro. It's got the eyes on the outside, and then you have Apple Vision, and it doesn't have the eyes,

and it's missing a couple other things, but it's cheaper because that's less parts, you can make a smaller cheaper thing but the idea will be the absolute best version of this is the closest to see-through glasses and you keep going further and further towards see-through glasses until you can finally actually do see-through glasses and you don't need the screen anymore i think i feel like my argument against that would be is there a reason for the eyes coming through is that it lets you be less disconnected from reality and lets you be that

so then why would you not have that on the version that more people are supposed to have and be using in the real world that's fair I don't think that's something they would get rid of I think that they'll have Vision Pro 2 and then also release Vision regular Vision and it'll just use the older technology. You know what's a real bummer

about this whole thing? That a major Apple display manufacturer and supplier didn't just announce a bezel-less micro-LED transparent screen. Well, they started development on this a long time ago. I know. Well, the joke is they did

do that. Yeah. I got that joke. i didn't cool oh no but i think i think maybe that is the marriage between the meta glasses and the um and the the traditional vr scape is like like as micro led transparency gets way way cheaper yeah um you know it wouldn't be that hard to map the perspective yeah yeah or you could just see marquez's actual face through here but there could be a exactly there could be oleds that are lighting up in front of him that he's able to like that lg transparent well no i was specifically thinking of the Samsung one. But wouldn't the issue in that be as if it was just, is that all the things he's seeing out, you would also see coming back in?

You would also see, yeah. So? Well, then it's like hard for me to like see his eye. Like this is trying to make it see. So like he still has all these things, but then he can connect with somebody where that would be, I'm seeing all these things and they're looking at me. But those things are still like a micro windows in my eyes and like blocking my eyes.

I think I see what you're saying. I feel like if there was something blocking the person Marquez was trying to connect with, that he wouldn't be able to see them anyway. So there'd be no point in trying to make eye contact. Whereas if he moved it out of the way of his eyes. But even if it was, I don't know why I'm arguing this so hard. But like, so Marquez could have me looking straight at him. Like, right. Like you're looking at me right now.

You can have windows here, here, here, all around me. Right. And I'm just seeing your eyes. But to him, since it's such a small glass, if it was just that, I would just see all these things that would probably be blocking his eyes. That's a good point. if it was just that i would just see all these things it would probably be blocking his that's a good point and uh samsung at their micro led uh display demonstration did not let anyone see it from the back so i have no idea what it's like from the other side yeah no it is real i mean

it's not real maybe come on lg is actually ship lgs is real, but Samsung didn't say theirs was necessarily shipping. But LG's OLED from the back is a lot less transmissive when it's clear. It's like, it looks sort of like fuzzy and like darker and I don't know. Shades. Alright. Alright. What else do you want to know? More questions. Someone is asking

if you can use virtual display thing on a Windows PC. No. Obviously not. i thought that question before so fair to them i thought it was a great question do you to be fair marquez before said mirroring a computer and i was like computer yeah that's exactly no way like you get all the best things with an apple computer but you should be able to just have a display up of your windows on the side yeah yeah they would probably sell more because they're like isolating out well at the same time the entire point of the vision pros you have all your apple apps in your headset does the quest pro do windows yeah okay

yeah yeah i think it only does windows uh no it definitely does mac but it definitely seems like the windows is what they advertise yeah and the mac is like you can use this if you really want they're heavier into Windows for sure. Go ahead. This is just kind of my own question and I'm pretty sure I know the answer to, but I guess your way around, remember before you wanted multiple Windows

like from your Mac? So if you have say Final Cut open, but you want a Safari window open, would you just do Final Cut and then pin a Safari app off to your right? Yeah. And then you'd still have it, but can you only type in that Safari app off to your right yeah and then you'd still have it but can you only

type in that safari app then with your eyes and virtual keyboard or can you still use your you can use your correct your real key so i could have final cut open i could have i message over here i could have like safari so as long as it's an app you can add extra windows effectively when you look at it it switches focus right and then yeah the keyboard works on there the annoying thing about that though is like sometimes i'll be typing something and then someone will start talking to me and i'll i'll finish my typing as i'm talking to the person exactly because i don't need to be looking at my computer because i know how to touch type but you just can't do that you can't multitask that's really fun you can't multitask because your

attention is what you are computing you're not allowed you can't multitask. That's really funny. You can't multitask because your attention is what you are computing. You are not allowed. You can't multitask. You're going to have a pop-up ad or something in Safari, and then you're just going to divert your vision and not realize you were typing half a sentence in there, and now you've lost it in your first application. I'll have this all extremely well laid out in the review

because I think it's the most unique aspect of computing on the Vision Pro. Is the, like, looking or? Is the fact that your attention is your task. Only that. Only your task. It's, like, great for multitasking, but at the same time, it's basically impossible to multitask. You can't multitask.

Yeah. I mean, you can have things happening in the background. You can have Apple Music off to the side playing music. You can have. Yeah. But, like, yeah. Yeah, it's one at a time yeah but that's not music playing in the background it's not really like what you're paying attention

to it's just ambient yeah yeah there is some when you have when you're facetiming with someone else in the vision pro and you get their weirdo polar express persona it's so funny actually that's the closest bird it doesn't like the polar express can you is it a set size window of them or can you have can i be giant if you're talking to me can there can i be a giant floating head you're talking to okay so when i'm wearing the vision pro and i'm in facetime my facetime experience is my camera feed is just my persona. And what I see is floating glass-like windows of everybody else on the FaceTime, whether they're a webcam or another Vision Pro persona. I can then drag the entire thing bigger to make those windows bigger. And what's kind of amazing about this is you can put them across the room on the wall. You can move them to the right and to the left.

And the thing that they see when you move it is accurate to the angle that you just moved it to. So if I put the vision pro window on the ceiling, they will see that top of my personas head. If I put it behind me, you will see blank because my persona, I can't tell if I like that or not. Well, I think so this was going to bring me up to my next point which was when we facetimed him on your computer David the other day where we were

just a regular so you saw a window of David's webcam we saw a window of your persona yeah and I think that makes sense if you're talking to other personas but for us when you turned around or literally got out of the box you just disappeared or like which is what would happen if you were on a normal computer also true i guess but like it makes it feel like the whole point of this is that it is now strapped to your head and you could potentially walk around in facetime but that would not work because you would leave the window so if you have the window like really really big far away on the wall across the room you can kind of walk around and always be in is that what we would see we should test test that to see, are you smaller than-

The thing is like, yeah, if I'm FaceTiming with like my mom, but I want to go into the kitchen to grab something, I don't want to disappear out of the frame. Even though I know that's what would happen on a computer, I also could carry my computer to the kitchen. Or your phone. My phone, you carry your phone around as you're walking through your apartment.

You do one of these. And also this is supposed to be better than the- The whole time, just take them with you. Or your phone. My phone. You carry your phone around as you're walking through your apartment. You do one of these. And also this is supposed to be better than this. The whole time just take them with you. You drag them. I guess. I mean, I think that Apple's trying to make it feel as close to an actual computing experience as possible. Because for example, when we were FaceTiming you,

I was using my laptop, which is to the left of me because my main display is in front of me. So you did see the side of my face. And that's exactly what would happen if I saw if you had your window pinned to the side of your face yep so technically it is exactly how a computer would work it's just not in my opinion like the ideal form of how i want to interact with you one major downside you can't show anything to the camera because it's just just your face and like only your hand showed up. Yeah.

So when you move your hands around in front of the headset, it does actually render a pair of hands that match your skin tone, which is kind of neat. But I obviously can't show things to you, even though I could hold something up. That's a huge down. Yeah. Wait, can you not flip the camera around and show like what you're looking at? You can do that. You can do that.

You can hit a button and show my view and then i can show you something okay i bet that's why it's a window with your persona and not just a floating persona because then that would look weird if you flipped around and then it would have to like not be a perfectly shaped head and then be now a square that shows you know it's funny a lot of people were complaining because they're like well normally when i'm on video meetings i can be on other tabs and stuff and they don't know. But now if I'm on, if I'm like looking in another direction or on another tab, it'll be a lot more obvious. But I guess if you're using your phone,

you could just kind of like put it in front of you and they wouldn't be able to see. That's true. That's true. I don't know. You know, it's funny. You can also make eye contact with individual people in the FaceTime. What do you mean? So if i'm

facetiming three people and in my vision pro i look at one of the people the other two people see slightly off axis okay because i'm only making eye contact with one of the people in facetime i realize that that is more like reality but but that also makes it hard to do a presentation yeah i also want to just go back like two steps on when we were saying like well if you're looking off to the side that's what a computer and a phone would be but like this isn't a computer and a phone i feel like we should have this step extra of being able to like i just want to go walk to another room and not have to leave the camera it just should have my face yeah anyways yeah do it's 3500 but i think they want it to feel intuitive to real life.

I'm not saying that makes it better. I'm just saying that their mindset, I assume, is let's make this as not different as not having a Vision Pro as possible. Can you connect it to a phone or an iPad the way that you use it with a Mac? To see the iPad screen? Yeah. No. No?

You can do the other way around. I can mirror what I see onto an iPad. Okay. But I cannot like virtual iPad onto my screen. Okay. Yeah. But you've got iPad apps everywhere anyway. Just real quick.

Yeah. We're out about an hour. Yeah. How do you feel how do you feel i'm approaching the furthest i've ever gone without taking the headset off like consecutively i feel fine fine um the the number one thing that's most annoying to me is the weight on my cheeks is starting to get heavy and also we haven't talked about this very much but the field of view of this headset isn't actually super wide it does feel like you've had ski goggles on yeah it does feel like my

peripheral is like bottled a little bit and i normally on this podcast will just look over and glance at adam and ellis i now have to fully look over because the edge of my peripheral is like like i can't see you i want to put them straight up now and we can't see you be cognizant of that because when I used it before I didn't realize that yeah I bet you that it was like that I just didn't really notice 100% it's it takes a couple uses before you start like poking around the edges and realizing how limited it is probably because you weren't in a scenario you're extremely used to where you like Marquez is in a spot right now where he does that all the time and then notices it's not the same as that so you were probably just using it out there and like yeah didn't try to do this I was in Apple's demo space and I didn't have to look at anybody well yeah

you weren't like in a in a like if you were at your desk and I said like hey David and like you turned around like that's something you do every single day where if you tried to do that in that scenario it'd be like something was different about that yeah i'm putting that reminds me that my guys just turned like 180 to look at me um david mentioning you you guys had demos with this yeah multiple demos which we spoke about previously but when you first set up the headset and put it on does it give you like a tour on how to use it i don't remember asking no it doesn't right no really no you only know how to use it because you went to the demo no wait i so the only so the here's here's what happens when you first get it number one thing is you put it on and it says hold the digital crown

to align your eyes you hold it down and it physically moves the lenses in place to match your eyes then the second thing that happens is you go around this series of dots where it says, look at the dot and then pinch your fingers together to select it. And that's a calibration process, but that's actually also you learning that whatever you look at is what you're selecting. Does a few rounds of that. Then you scan your hands like this and then you're in and the app drawer is there and you're free. I'll say I did try it very briefly. I was in your guest mode, but at that point,

the only way we did is you basically allowed everything in the guest mode. So I didn't go through the full setup where I had to do my face, but I did all the tapping and hands. It's crazy intuitive. I was super, super impressed by it.

But it literally is just like, yeah, you hold it. It changes where the like the lens, the space where the lenses are. So you can see clearly. Then like a hexagon of dots comes up and you just look at each one and press them. And when all of them press, it goes to another set of it. It's doing it in different brightness levels to try and gauge, I guess, what's the best.

But it's hold you to press your fingers together, right? Yeah. And then you just like tap and then you go through that. And then you're kind of just in the space. And then you're like, yeah. Oh, and then it shows up after it shows up and it was very intuitive. I was just like moving things around. It does a good job of when you start looking at things like the corner where you would drag it out or the bar, like highlights it for a second. Um, and yeah, it's also a good point though, that they don't have any sort of like

tutorial. It was just interesting to me. Cause even on the phone, there's like so many things you can long press and a new action will pop up that i didn't know was there forever i wonder how often it's going to happen there is a lot of hidden ui i mean apple has done that before right didn't they not tell anyone about 3d touch and no 3d touch got launched but like i there are still things in vision pro apps where i will long press and go oh i didn't know that had an option. How did you find the control center thing? Only because they told you about it? Yeah, because they told me about it. So the fact that you have to stare up at the ceiling

to find control. Oh, really? I didn't know that. The only way you can access control centers by looking straight up and seeing this little arrow and then you tap it and then it comes down into your view. When I was using it, I saw the arrow and I just thought that meant like, bro, they aren't anything up here.

Look down. That's what I thought Look down. Yeah. I mean, they don't want you to use control. I'm very curious if like the consumer version of these that people start getting is going to have. This is a consumer version. They went all the way down also. Yeah, but it's also a review unit.

There's no arrow. I thought I saw an arrow when I was down. They're always consumer versions. Unless they're like alpha, like not. We got like a version that people will be getting in stores. Yeah. This is what people will be getting in stores yeah this is what people so but there is a uh 10 minute guided tour of apple vision pro on apple's youtube channel that has

surprisingly six and a half million views also true which is crazy because that's a lot more views they usually get and am i correct in saying that can you get this delivered to your house or do you have to go pick it up at an apple store if you purchase it right now? You can get it delivered, but the Apple store does have like this experience that they're going to give to people. Yeah, so I would assume there's somewhat of a tutorial in that aspect of way. Oh, yeah. Because you have to, like the slots,

when people were buying them were filling up fast, so I'm assuming they are dedicating time to each of those slots. Man, shout out to, this episode comes out on the second, right? Shout out to all the apple employees if you're on your way to work today i'm sorry it's gonna be a rough one probably the next week big kudos to all of you guys and stay strong it's gonna be a long one it's funny how much like the

more we talk about it the more i kind of want it just to play with but i the more i also know that it will just be kind of a paper there's a on, there's a perfect Reddit comment for this that I have to find. While you're finding that, a question that I have actually. Hit me. Have you tried regular earbuds with it that are not AirPods? No, but you can. So you can pair Bluetooth headphones directly to the Vision Pro. Yeah.

You won't get, I think it's just spatial audio. But also the latency. Low latency. I want to know if that low latency actually matters because if you have anything but the newest usbc airpods pro there is a lower latent there's a higher latency but i want to know like does that actually really change anything yeah i was using the virtual mac display and then using my wired headphones plugged into the Mac, and even that latency was low enough and totally fine. So, again, I'm not gaming or doing anything super sensitive to latency,

and even then it's just audio latency, so I'm not actually really minding. I want to play Dota on a massive screen. And see if the audio latency bothers you? No, just to play it on the Vision Pro and see if the bandwidth is high enough no just to play it oh for sure on the vision pro and see if the bandwidth is high enough to like update that game fast enough yeah because native on mac so yeah that's a yeah i want to play some sort of game or something i feel like a first person shooter would just not work the funny thing is like like games like cs go pro players will actually get really small screens because they they don't you don't want to have to turn your head at all

you want to be able to do everything in your peripherals it is confusing though because there are people who despite having 24 is usually like the standard for that which is like small in the computer world these days but then they like put their nose to it so they do kind of have to like they put their nose against the screen look if you look up some like pro cs players or over uh valorant players they are like touching this screen it's wild um but yeah i would like to try playing some games yeah it sounds really cool yeah um okay wait this is the comment i saw on our apple on our unboxing video they just said do i want one no do i want to play with one for an hour or so yes do i need it no no no absolutely yeah that's a very

fair fair enough that could be the title for one of the videos yeah i want to play with it for a couple hours but i don't want to spend 3500 exactly it's like the you guys are asking before how long do you think you're going to continue to use vision pro after the review process is over what are you going to use it for you can use it every day are you going to stop using it what's going to happen yeah are you going to use it i think my main analysis so far is it still feels like a fun toy that i'll i would break out every once in a while but i still also think there are a couple of things that are amazingly fun on it that i would want to use it for namely the thing i'm keep talking about which is on an airplane using my mac on a plane watching a video on a plane. I cannot wait for the 16-hour flight

I have coming up in a month to just watch videos on the plane and not even think about what's around me. That's going to be great. And I think also when some new games and fun stuff starts getting announced, not necessarily killer apps, but I think really much more fun apps.

You should wear this headset for the entire 16-hour flight. 16 hours is probably too much i'm probably gonna want to sleep during that flight well but if you were able to get a business class seat you could lay down and have screens on the ceiling yeah absolutely i could have sky guide i could have sky guide on the ceiling and then i could look out the window of the plane and pick the constellations out of the sky and bring them into the cabin and stare at them. Damn, we live in the future. Do it. Can you, when you see the flight attendant

coming with your first drink while you're wearing this, can you screen record? We won't post it anywhere because I don't want to post it there, but I just want to see it from here, what their reaction is. When I record videos on the outside, tell me what color this turns.

So I'm going to take a video. I mean, I can see like- I can see your eyes. 10% of the screen. So I'm gonna take a video i mean i can see like i can see your eyes 10 of the screen so i'm recording a video now what does that look like it's oh i've seen this it like it's like white it's a dull white white this is just like the new meta ray-ban glasses it's just like a blinking kind of a white glow no part of it screams i'm recording right yeah i do not think this is a good way of showing you're recording. I mean, it's better than the original Google Glass, which didn't have any indicator.

That's what killed it, in my opinion. It should be red blinking 100%. That's like the only thing that screams I am recording. Yeah. This should say I'm recording across the screen. Literally, if that was white and blinking and i was the steward or stewardess i would have no idea no not a chance yeah i record a special video so it does like the knockoff nest cam thing where it's like hi you are being recorded i'm thinking though like

the like convenience store screen that just scrolls letters across it that just says you are being recorded and just keep scrolling endlessly yeah that'll be awesome also okay so you know those those memes that keep showing up which are they make perfect sense they're like your mom i know what you're talking about 1993 was like don't look too closely at the tv and then in 2020 we strapped the tv to our face yeah the weird thing about that is technically the focus distance of my eyes is further than it would be if a screen was up close to me yeah because you're because of the lenses right so the way the lenses work and i guess if i wanted to explain the way eyeballs work like they literally are changing their shape when you focus at something further away my focus distance is

further now and less fatiguing now than if i had a screen super close to my face that's a good point yeah not to ruin the meme but that's just yeah keep me focusing on things that's that's the whole reason that tim cook when he comes on stage he says the vision pro is the first device that we don't look at but through the eyes on the outside look like the sloth from ice age yeah yeah like your eyes look like further apart and they're not always quite looking at the same thing. Yeah. The last dandelion. I still really like it though. I definitely prefer this

to not being able to see your eyes this whole podcast. I feel closer to you now, 100%. I think if it worked, correct, like if it had a good... Okay, David can see both of your eyes. I've only seen one eye the entire time. He's straight at me soid can see both of your eyes i've only seen one eye yeah he's he's straight at me so i can see both eyes but i do you feel better now andrew i feel weird only seeing one eye no you've seen his words i feel like i'm making eye contact you are

so stretched i can tell are you making eye contact with me because i feel like i am yeah and you are yeah okay yeah so that's it's technically working i mean it's not going to be perfect when you're slightly off axis obviously maybe i'm just more comfortable making eye contact with slots than you are or with virtual reality headsets in finding nemo all the fish's eyes are on the front of their face no but i swear there was this one fish that had a really wide face that is what you looked like and it's so weird and i also can't see all of it that's what's like it's probably glary there's probably it's not it's not all glare it's viewing angle is lenticular film like you need light from the outside to be able to see it correctly like i think if you're

in it because the iphone for example the for the original nintendo game boy was it was it required reflections of light from the sun to be able to see it because there's no like backlight oh right right yeah on this can i see it better when there's a lot of ambient light i don't think so no i think it's if you imagine a film a literal hardware layer over the display yeah it is refracting in a way that shows a different image to each of your eyes yeah so as you move in front of the display it shows you different parts of the screen at the same time i am glad they did that because it does look a lot better than just your eyes being pasted to the front of the vision that is it would make it feel like it would make it feel like your eyes are just jutted out yeah whereas actually it looks like it's around

where it's supposed to be in on your face i think that's fair. Most of the time it does. There are some angles where it's still, I think that there's specifically an angle in the first impressions video we put out where it's kind of from under you a bit looking up and your eyes just look like they are in a totally different place on your face than they actually are. So it works in some cases. That's, I feel like that's the whole mantra of this front screen is like it works 15 of the time and it works over in the perfect center yeah and i like make eye contact with and

in that scenario it is still about 50 of what they showed off in all of the marketing material yeah yeah any other big questions that people had can you hot swap the batteries uh yes you can buy an extra battery and surprisingly a lot of people don't know this the only way to actually turn the vision pro off is to take the battery off it'll just go into a standby mode if you take it off but the only way to there's just like the airpods max there's no on or off button it just turns on when you put the battery on and it turns off when you take the battery off. Which you cannot hot swap the batteries though. So you cannot hot swap this battery. What you can do is daisy chain yet another battery to this battery and hot swap that one

while this one stays on. I know you can do that, but does Apple say you should do that? Oh, no. Yeah, that sounds like a serious fire. You can't like leave it running and replace the main latch battery. No, because the way you, David said, take the battery off.

I know a lot of people in this, when he explained this to me the other day, I was confused, but everyone's thinking that taking the cord out of where the battery is, it's taking the cord off of where the headset connects is how you can swap the battery. But obviously that is not hot swap because then it turns off. Oh, right. Oh, hot swap. Yeah. You can't hot swap the battery. Yeah off oh right oh hot swap yeah but you

can't hot swap the battery yeah you can't swap you can you can plug in you can plug a battery into the battery yes or the wall but you be careful that's i probably i wouldn't do that i would do 10 batteries i wouldn't do that i would do that do that you would i would totally i wouldn't put another battery to go into this battery. Why not? You would not. I don't think. Why not? That's the whole point of an extra USB-C port. No, no, no. Would you read the manual of like Anchor or any other? Who reads the manual, nerd?

Bro, I think it's a battery, dog. So? Uncontrollable fire, my guy. I love putting batteries on my face. Wow. All right. Well, before we give any more advice that will make your insurance rates go up why don't we uh i'm buying life insurance on marquez right now

all right and we're back with another trivia round is this already incognito yeah because it's just i can't see what you're doing back here in the meat verse we're doing trivia do you guys want science or tech i like science taylor's version i don't know that's all three different things i'm okay with either actually yeah points don't matter points don't matter okay i'm okay with either here's a question all right okay electrons you have an intrinsic property called a spin in which two directions can an electron spin boom ba-doom ba-doom ba-doom boom ba-doom that's that's later that's what that oh i know okay that's fine we'll be right back got it i have some fun facts about no way do you really just you google it

of course why wouldn't i google it's right here You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know. Ambition is on the inside.

So that road trip bucket list? Get after it. Drive your ambition mitsubishi motors should i take this off that's right no you gotta keep it on for the whole episode you think i should have it yeah well hold on let's let's i want to see hold on i want to i want you to feel pain can you well okay okay all Welcome back. We are in our third and final segment. I am still wearing the Vision Pro. We are at, so in real time. It's about an hour 20. An hour 20.

I will say now, and I haven't really done that many tasks on the headset other than Googling the trivia answers. Wow. But there is a little bit of warm air coming off the top of the headset. Can you feel the warm air? Yes. The headset itself is not warm, and it doesn't really get warm unless I'm doing a lot and Mac mirroring or whatever. But also, I never hear the fans, and I never feel the hot air.

The thing never actually gets hot on my face face, so that's my update. So the hot air doesn't come out of the headset, but it does come out of your mouth. Yeah. No, the hot air comes like it leaks out the top vent. There's a little vent, yeah. and there are real fans like pushing it out so an hour and 20 in we're telling you to continue to put this on would you prefer right now to take it off honestly i love that i can just google things okay well if you weren't cheating and trivia uh would you prefer to have this off this is the best I've ever felt after this long because of the headband I'm wearing.

So I'm fine. If you were wearing this headband. There's no way I'd still have it on. Okay. Yeah, for sure. So the only reason to do that was if you don't want to mess up your hair or if you're going to use it for like five minutes. Exactly.

Or if you're an Apple retail store and you want it to look nice on the shelf. Looks nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice that they give you both in the bag considering the travel carrying case is 200 yeah did you want to talk about carrying yes thank you thank you david let me see this bad boy we are so torn sorry i need to bring this up where i see the studio can i see a little sleep mask thing yeah yeah this is just for like i know transport i know but i love it i'm gonna start with the positives of this carrying case andrew has

some thoughts. Beautiful. Is this like Alcantara inside? Yeah, and it's like, feel it. It's soft. Beautiful, soft, nice interior, adjustable to where the goggles can sit right in there, strap in, wires, battery, place for everything. Great material, good zipper,

awesome exterior strap that retracts back in when you're using it. That's nice. Then it is made out of what feels like puffer jacket material that's been crumpled on my college dorm room floor for like four months while I neglect to do my laundry.

Waterproof ripstop mesh. That looks like it's been sitting on my college dorm room floor for four months without me doing my laundry. Sure. How is it so wrinkly? I agree. The wrinkles kind of kill it.

The wrinkling's so bad. The wrinkles kind of kill it. They don't kill it. It totally kills it. You can be waterproof and ripstop without having this much wrinkle. I agree. I want to say, I really love the retractable bouncy band. Awesome.

Although, somebody brought this up. I think it was Christian Selig from... Apollo. Ex-Apollo. From Ex-Apollo and Pixel Pals, I think. He was like, the Vision Pro, the band can push forward to the goggles. Yeah. Could this not be half the size?

I was thinking that. Half of this opening is just so the band can be fully extracted on the back part. So I keep thinking about, Apple doesn't make that many carrying cases, but the carrying case situation for AirPods Max is abysmal. It's a bra. And then this is like. But the thing about that is the headphones don't fold or attract in any meaningful way.

So there kind of is no good way to compact it. It's going to be huge no matter what. You just need to take the damage. Yeah. This, as you mentioned, like the back of the headset headset you can push it in and you can actually make it smaller you can take the band off even and make it even smaller but this carrying case assumes you just take it off and put it in and don't try to compress it at all this takes up half the interior of my backpack that's a big and the actual vision pro takes up like a fifth of the yeah like this feels like not backpackable not packable yeah unless you have like or it's unless it's 90 percent of yeah

and then so like half of this size you could squeeze it in a backpack with maybe a couple other essentials of the things you want with you on a plane yeah it does feel substantial though like i people talking about the price 200 because let's be honest when you just hear 200 carrying case you're like that's insane i feel like this is deserving of of the price maybe that's a hot take but this feels like a 200 case i'm not even joking i think it's less of that it's a 200 case and more of it's a 3500 headset that doesn't come with the case it should come totally yeah someone made the point that a lot most of apple's cases are five percent of the retail value of the device so the base iphone 15 pro is a thousand dollars and the case is fifty dollars which is five percent of the value uh

that's 200 which is about five percent of 3500 damn is that just a math on like what we think we can get out of the customer? Maybe you think? I'm not sure. It's like how apps on iPad cost more because people with iPads have more money. And that's, I'm sure Vision Pro apps are going to be pricey. Yeah. I'm not sure if they're just like all of our cases are 5% of the product price or if it's,

I mean, that's clearly not the case because if you get a regular iPhone that's cheaper, the case is still $50, I think. But yeah, for its pro ones, I guess. I want to try and unwrinkle this. There's no way. It came wrinkled. I think I can. It literally came wrinkled in the bottom.

If you'll allow me, I want to try and unwrinkle this. I think you might do damage to it before successfully unwrinkling it. You think it'll do damage to it? It's just a steamer. I don't think a steamer would damage this. I'll let you steam it. I'll let you steam it. I want to try and steam this and'll do damage to it it's just a steamer i don't think i'll let you steam it this okay i want to try and steam this and see if i can fix it and then it'll wrinkle in 45 seconds i want to say i really like this little like nanny granny like sleep mask that comes on the video to keep the glass protected it's funny because we didn't know about that yeah but then

jenna ezric made like a fake post when everybody else was posting them seeing it, which is like an actual sleep mask. And if you go back, it looks almost exactly like that. Yeah. That's funny. What is that baggy? This is for your accessories. So you're charging a cable and brick.

And I also have the microfiber in here because this thing gets infinite fingerprints and it does have a little nick on the glass as well. Already? Yeah. Nice. I mean, you can't say it's tiny, but I have noticed it because we're shooting. How'd you get it? There's a lot of, okay, so here's the thing mean you can't say it's tiny but i have noticed it because we're shooting how'd you know there's a lot okay so here's the thing i can't do it because i'm still wearing it but picking up the vision pro is kind of a deliberate experience

if you pick up by the like padding the padding it just magnet magnetizes off it just falls off so you got to pick it up by the metal right which i imagine we've like you know clanked a phone up against it once or twice probably done other like multitasking things and scraped it so yeah by the time this pod's out our last video will probably be out which then you'll know that brandon found a way with alex and myself to rig this onto a robot so maybe that's where brandon tweeted that oh he tweeted it okay yeah so we found out we had to build our own rig to connect it to the robot. Here's a question. You hate this. If you could buy just that, would you put that in your backpack? Like Vision Pro, just that.

Oh, I think that's the better move. That's the only thing I care about. Yeah. Just protecting that. Protecting glass. Yeah. The inside lenses, I don't know how dangerous that is. Wait, it comes with this in the original box, right?

That's not the case. Yeah, in the original box. Just checking. Yeah, it comes with it on it. Okay, yeah, then I probably... So you don't really need that. I guess you're only buying that if you're carrying it just by itself. So maybe that's...

Does the dual loop strap collapse? Yeah. Okay. To a point, maybe not as much because it still has a heart. But those buckles when they're collapsed could scratch the... Oh, no, that is weird. I would just put it in this. It's so weird, your wide eye.

Only one. I would put it in the accessory pouch. Does that come with it, or does that in the... This is just in the Vision Pro carrying case. Oh. Yeah. Some more rich dot mesh for you. Oh, I like that sound.

Nice. I have to be the only person in the studio that absolutely adores this case. No, I like it. No, I like it. I like it. i like it okay you too it's 200 well and it's too big i mean the material it should be half the size it's wrinkled andrew and david are in the this wrinkly thing is dumb camp no it's just ugly i'm i think it's it's beautiful it's so sick you like that it's wrinkly i love that it's wrinkly i love the ripstop material like that is the kind of quality i have nothing against the ripstop material i just don't like ripstop material that looks like poo because it's so wrinkly it just reminds me of like the uh nasa yeah like font

like it seems like you could have the nasa logo on there and it would definitely be a nasa it's like an astronaut suit the michelin man would love i think my proud like if it eventually got wrinkly because he uses so much but it's so wrinkly that the product photos on apple's website are wrinkly as a boy who spent my early years uh baking in the california sun and well when i am 80 years old look just as wrinkly as that bag i think in a little bit that'll fit me quite well yeah fair have you guys ever like painted a room or painted a house and you go and you get from home depot those like seven dollar paint suits like that that's what the material reminds me of that's

and that's way less cool than nasa well yeah and it's also the same thing i don't am i crazy for not believing the ripstop claim? What claim? Like, I think you could tear that with your fingers. With your fingers? I don't think with your fingers. I don't think it's... You can't tear it with your fingers, no.

I also think... I also think ripstop in general can still rip pretty easily. Yeah. It's just less easy. Ripstop is like Kleenex. I have plenty of ripstop pants that are ripped. Wait, I'm kidding. From a good Pricker Bush or a good rock or something like that.

Yeah. Let me, let me, let me see what my face. It's just better. It's better than regular material. We have ripstop mesh in the Adams as well. Nylon fabric that is woven so that a tear will not spread. Nice plug. Oh, ripstop.

It doesn't stop the rip. It stops the. Wait, let me see it yeah it's it's woven well if we're done with the case sure i think we should talk about tax something else that apple is charging people a lot of money for talking about taxes which is potentially the only other news article that came out this week yeah yeah thanks and is one that is extremely confusing yeah to where i will sorry no no no you go i'll just say to where i will preface this where david and i have both read multiple articles i've listened we have contacted multiple developers that we know christian who i mentioned before being one of them nice enough to jump on a call

this morning and help us and then we was confused and he was confused as well um and then we went to apple's thing but basically this is about the new eu third party and app tax that they will be charging due to passing eu laws i'm prefacing this whole thing and i'm gonna let david probably jump into this and go into how this all works but we are a bit confused because there are different articles no no anything we get wrong is both of our faults um just kidding but there are a bit confused because there are different articles no no anything we get wrong is both of our faults um just kidding but there are lots of articles that say different things and are confusing in the way it words it so we're going to try and get this as best as we can but new ways apple is charging apps in the eu right what is happening okay yeah so uh the european union and apple have a very contentious relationship

right now in many ways we've seen usbc uh now they are forcing apple to allow third-party app stores on the iphone uh because they see apple as a like gatekeeper of sorts the iphone and all mobile phones are basically like an essential device that everyone uses in their daily life. So even though Apple is this company that can generally do whatever they want, the European Union is saying, well, you need to do it in a way that is beneficial to consumers or at least like open to consumers and gives people choice. So what they've done is they have forced Apple to allow these third party app stores, but they've done it in the most. I'm going to put my middle finger up at you, European Union, even though like malicious compliance. There's a great sublet subreddit for this called our slash malicious compliance. Very fun.

That's really funny. It's people like doing what they're told to do, but in a way that is so freaking annoying. And that's what Apple is doing here. Sounds like people paying tickets in like pennies. Yeah. Just like I'm paying. You're going to fight for this. Exactly. I'm going to make your life harder to do the thing you're forcing me to do. So now there are three different options that you as a developer can do if you want to either one,

operate a third party app store in the European Union, which is now forced by law, or have your app on a third-party app store that you can access on the iPhone. Notably, Fortnite has not been on the Apple App Store because Tim Sweeney is very against the 30% Apple tax. They got in a big fight. The Epic versus Apple thing started because Tim Sweeney basically like broke the app store Apple rules and introduced a third party payment method within the Fortnite app on the app store. So they got kicked off, never really resolved it. Now they're going to be able to offer the Epic app store as well as their own third party payment processing method on the iPhone in Europe only, which is really annoying. And one thing to note there is like, just because it's in the EU

and me being a moron, so there's probably a couple other morons listening to this, where it's just like, there are developers in other countries, but they still have people in the EU using their app. So there are still portions of this app income that are going to be affected by this and how they want to like work in the EU using their app. So there are still portions of this app income that are going to be affected by this

and how they want to like work in the EU. So yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, so three options. Option number one, nothing changes. You do literally nothing. You stay in Apple's app store thing. They take 30% cut. You don't have to think about anything.

That's it. You're not changing anything. Cool, cool. Option two, you completely leave the Apple App Store and you only put your app in third-party app stores. So you don't have to pay the 30% cut because you're not being published in the Apple App Store. But once you hit 1 million downloads per year, you pay 50 euro cents,

which, is there a word for that? Because we have dollars and cents. I'll Google it. It's cents. I like euro cents, though. Well, then the conversion is technically 54 cents USD. So just trying to make sure it's not exactly. Approximately 50 cents is what we'll say for the rest of this.

Approximately 50 cents per user per year. Sort of. The per year thing, we'll say for the rest approximately 50 cents per user per year sort of yes the per year thing we'll touch on in a minute right that was what was mostly confusing this morning um so yeah you don't have to pay that 30 cut but then after you hit a million users it's 50 cents per user that could stack up very quickly um and it's it's per user over 1 million so the first 1 million don't count after that yeah they count you guys may have had someone in your life that said oh i moved into a different tax bracket so i'm making less money now and it's like no that's not how that works they take a higher percentage

of the it's additional additional income yeah uh there's a word for that there is that i can't remember right now either anyway option three uh you agree to the new terms and you're by the way once you agree to these new terms and say i want to offer my app in a third-party app store you're not allowed to say i want to go back to apple only it's irreversible talk about locking am i right yeah that's irreversible that's specifically to discourage people from making this choice. Yes, absolutely. But if you do that, you actually only pay 17% to Apple. But then additionally, after 1 million users, you also pay that 50 euro cent fee per user.

So the tax that goes directly to Apple goes from 30% to 17%, which is good. But if you're a very large app that has a ton of users, that 50 euro cents per user could stack a ton. Something that I was seeing flying around the internet that we're having a long discussion about this morning that was very misleading. A lot of people were saying an update counts as an install it does not um your api it sort of does sort of does it can count as an install if you have not installed the app that year or if you have not updated the app i think i read this enough where i can explain this part go ahead okay so it's not that it's actually 50 i'm just going to keep saying 50 cents i hope everyone understands what that means 50 cents it's not 50 cents per year but it's 50 cents per new install per year. And you get a 12 month grace period in that. So if you install it

after the 1 million users, it costs that company 50 cents in a year. If you don't reinstall it, it doesn't, it's not another 50 cents, but if an update happens after that 12 month period, it counts as a reinstall and restarts the 12 month period. So some people were confused because they were like, well, every time I update this, I'm going to be charged another 50 cents per person who updates it. You can do it a bunch of times, but every single app is going to update at least once a year. So just assume it as every app is basically 50 cents per user per year over over a million and they do that crucially because if you basically saturated your app install market and you got like you got like 10 million installs right away but

then you didn't even remotely get a million installs the next year if they didn't have that as a thing apple wouldn't make any money so they have to recharge you every year if you update your app at all yeah um okay so apple makes it a big deal that oh 99 of developers are actually paying probably less if they go through the third-party app store because it's 17 then they don't have that many people that's framing it's framing because crucially, the top 1% of app developers are on like 95% of people's phones.

Yeah. And will probably pay equally as much or more. A load of money. Like $60 million. It's also weird because then it's making smaller developers hope that their apps don't get popular. In a way.

If they're able to like compensate for it somehow. But yeah, if you have a free app that you don't really make money on and it gets popular and you have it in an exterior app store, you're screwed. Like you're going to owe Apple a ton of money unless you can make money through ads or something. You're kind of just screwed. Christian was mentioning to us how like it could it's potentially harmful if you make an app and you don't convince the person to do the premium version, which subscribes and then they have auto updates on. And now every year they just kind of forget about that app. And now you potentially have a bunch of users who aren't giving you the income from it. But now you're getting charged 50 cents per user per year.

Yeah. And that adds up if you are on a larger app right so it's very confusing definitely on purpose just to try to keep people in their regular app app store system and then there's a new set of taxes uh if you are trying to operate a third-party app store So those were all for just developers that either wanted to be on just Apple's app store or both or just on a third party app store. But if you say you're you want to make the Epic app store, which Epic definitely wants to do, this move is definitely just a giant middle finger to Epic because of the whole trial thing. You don't get

the 1 million user grace period. So if you're operating a third party app store, no matter what you have to pay 50 Euro cents per user install, uh, per year. Yeah. So again, we're saying per year, assuming the whole actual 12 grace period, which is just going to always be per year, but I just want to make sure no one. So this is, this is what it feels like if you're Epic. Not only do you have to pay 50 cents per user who downloads your app store at all, but then you also have to give 17% of all commission

from that app store to Apple. Is, I thought that was only if they're still on the Apple app store as well. I think if they are only in their own third party then they don't have to pay the percentage at all i believe so okay well i guess it is a little more confusing with that but i think i think it's if you're on both it's 17 plus 1 million yeah 50 cent if you are just totally by yourself i guess this is you are creating the third party app store which i assume if you're creating the third-party app store you don't want to

be on the regular app store this is how i feel anyway this has uh created a lot of contention with developers this uh week because it's just been it's so confusing confusing on purpose it's trying to keep people in their, in their walled garden on purpose. And then there's a whole nother thing with like, you can offer a third party payment methods as well. So that's the thing where like, I do think some, this is the potential win-win for some companies.

Some, I think the Verge use Spotify as an example, because Spotify does not let you subscribe to them inside of the app because of the Apple tax. Yeah. So if they can now allow you to subscribe inside of the app, but they're just going to be paying the 50 cents per user per year, they will probably get the extra amount of revenue through subscriptions. Yeah. And because it's easier and then the 50 cents per user per year is cheaper than the 30%

tax on the subscribe reoccurring subscriptions something that some apps had done like uh twitter slash x had a way to they still have this you can subscribe to x premium in the app on the phone but it literally costs 30 percent more per month and they don't really tell you that very obviously but if you go and subscribe on a desktop then then you pay 30% less every month, which is insane. So now it would be nice if Spotify let you subscribe in the app, but they just said, heads up, it's going to be 50 cents more per month if you subscribe here versus on. I think even if they just do it normally, like they're getting a better revenue out of it. Yeah. just do it normally like they're getting a better revenue out of it yeah or they're like making it

up so it's still they they're okay with how much more revenue they'll get by people being able to subscribe in the app because it's easier versus paying that 50 cents yeah again this is also only the eu they're obviously people all over the place all over the world so it's like a lot but also a little to companies that are that big so yeah and then also apple is going to be making so much money off of spotify in that scenario if they're charging 50 cents per user epic is also specifically um they're prepping to challenge the changes because it kind of is a direct target at them i was also going to say the eu can still look at this and review it so this is still ongoing it is surprising

that apple is being this brazen against the european union a couple developers we talked to were basically like we are going to do nothing at first let it just keep riding the 30 and see let some other people be the guinea pigs on this and see if they it winds up costing them less how big of a difference is if it's worth the huge hassle all of this kind of seems purposefully confusing and crazy to just hope that nobody makes any changes and just continues to eat the 30 yeah that's definitely what they're hoping i also realized david and i were going in on that for a while and i hadn't heard marquez i was like is he listening and intrigued or is he inside of an app inside of the Vision Pro

right now? I was playing Fruit Ninja Anyway this is an evolving story as all of this Apple EU stuff has been if anything Apple pissing off the EU even more makes it even more likely that maybe iMessage

could be interoperable that's exciting in the future because the whole beeper thing really did start a ripple like senator senator elizabeth warren started tweeting about beeper well it's not on my and then they all forgot about it and didn't beeper just totally shut down like everything they shut down their iMessage compatibility yeah rip win w but okay so yeah that was confusing david and i tried very hard probably a few things we got wrong please let us know if we did in a nice manner but do the research first because people say a lot of things at us and then we look it up we're not developers not true we don't know yeah so thank you um how you doing marquez i'd marquez checked out a while ago i can see the blue glaze you're not true you how you doing marquez i'd marquez checked out a while ago

i can see the blue glaze you're not true you need you need that app i was now they literally mean it can we get a time update what's he like 145 yeah there's an extra five on yeah this band is way better man way better are you excited to take it off though yeah a little bit yeah making me want a vision pro but i know that i will not use it consistently you know there's one in the office soon too that won't be used as much that's i'm just out here like learning googling there is a really great comment on there reddit about another comment on reddit about how when you are in unboxing the very first time you put it on you go this is really heavy

yeah dude the difference between this solo knit band and the way it the way it's holding the weight on the front of your face versus the way this one takes so much of that weight off of your cheekbones is enormous have you ever thought of just like working out? My cheekbones? Everything. That's the thing is all the jokes are like, your neck strength, your neck strength. The only way I feel it on my neck is when I... Do that?

That's when I feel it on my neck. Your eye just like... Swivel your head, yeah. That, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your eye just went all over the place. My eyes everywhere. Apple Fitness Plus adds like a cheek muscle muscle workout it's like how many reps of smiles can you do bro it's gonna add the f1 like neck pulling workout to we'll end the podcast with

me taking it off and seeing how many lines are on my face oh yeah we'll definitely do that we'll do that oh yeah but of course we should uh before we get to the end trivia should you trivia trivia dude dude trivia yeah we should do that we should do that yes yes all right trivia quick update nope no quick update marquez cheated scores don't matter because marquez is cheating but check out the trivia extravaganza episode dropping next week bonus episode tuesday or wednesday yeah t, Wednesday, whenever I'm done editing it. So first question. Which legendary mobile device was more expensive at launch? 1996's Palm Pilot Professional or 2002's T-Mobile slash Danger?

Marques, you. Dude, I'm like watching him cheat in real time what's the other one yeah sucks what's up alright well you don't want to play my game I'm not playing your game do you guys know the other one

you're just guessing the other one alright I actually only know one of them so I just wrote that one down just to spite you wait I like your answer my answer is quantum whoa A, B, A and B

A or B, A and B? A or B. A! Correct. Are you saying they're the same price? No. No. What are you saying? I'm saying that they're both or neither until you tell me the answer.

And then it collapses. I know. Schrodinger's trivia class. Ellis, my answer is in a super position it is that's what i'm saying idiot i'm i'm going with the one megabyte palm pilot professional which retailed at 399 dollars i have the same answer without cheating next question electrons Without cheating. Next question. Electrons have an intrinsic property called a spin. Which two directions does an electron spin in? Boo-ba-doo-ba-doo.

Just Google electron spin direction close safari okay and my answer is uh spin up or spin down often denoted by negative z or positive z interesting so what does the z stand for marquez oh that wasn't the question but i can google it andrew i just wrote forward and backwards david as electrons are in a quantum state i hate this no they're not yes it is no they're not electron spin is in a quantum state until you observe it yes a particle's inherent angular momentum is parameterized by spin quantum numbers, clearly. Wow, exactly. Just right off the noggin.

The answer was up and down for the listener. Yeah, I know. That's what I wrote about electrons being- So to identify spin direction, you determine the number of electrons the atom has. Then you draw the electron configuration for the atom. See electronic configurations for more information. Then distribute the electrons using up and down arrows to represent the electron spin direction so wow back to reality you guys look way better in vr two hours wait

almost two hours what hey i'm not used to seeing you with that glasses on yeah no this is this is really goggles eye opening in a stressful way but literally thanks for watching thanks for listening thanks for spending time with us in or not in the vision pro we have a lot more to talk about with a lot of this stuff but uh until the next one catch you later peace anyway all right all right out wait outros wait yeah you outro in this scenario oh Waveform is produced by Ellis Roven and Adam Molina. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and our intro outro music is by Vane Sill. Dang.

It is so bright in here. That band mark on your head is pretty intense. there was a conversation that somehow went from cannibalism into it was david