Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - Fortnite vs. Apple, Canon R5 vs. Sony a7S iii, & Battery Size vs. Charge Speed

Episode Date: August 21, 2020

A special "versus" episode is here! Today, we debate several of the hottest topics in the tech world. First up, Epic Games and Fortnite are engaged in legal warfare with heavyweights Apple and Google. Next, we invite studio members Vinh Dang and Brandon Havard onto the podcast to discuss the battle of the newest mirrorless cameras out right now: the Canon EOS R5 and the Sony a7S iii. Finally, we debate the feature we'd most like in a smartphone: an extra large battery or a battery that charges super fast. Strap in. This is a fun one. Links: https://twitter.com/wvfrm https://twitter.com/mkbhd https://twitter.com/andymanganelli https://www.instagram.com/wvfrmpodcast/ shop.mkbhd.com Music by KamrenB: https://spoti.fi/2WRJOFh Captain Dissillusion: https://bit.ly/2Yig0Cq Rene Ritche Epic vs Apple: https://bit.ly/2EnDKOi Wild Wild Tech Podcast: https://bit.ly/WildWildTech Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And I'm Andrew Manganielli. It's Vin Dang. And Brandon Havard. And that is more people than we usually have, but they're here for a reason, of course, but we'll get back to that in a second. But we got a lot to talk about today. We start off with the recap. We do an update to our power rankings for tech events that we've had during this quarantine. Then we go right into the streaming updates. And then we got a bunch of versus, which is why everybody's here. We're going to talk about Apple versus Epic.

We're going to talk about Canon R5 versus Sony A7S III. Then we're going to talk big batteries versus fast charging. So it's a fun one. Stick around. But let's start right off the top with our usual recap that we got. We had a couple videos, some really fun ones and some anticipated ones this week. Note20 came out, Note20 Ultra came out.

We have the Note20 Ultra, we reviewed the Note20 Ultra. Yeah. The $1,300 phone. And I think the opening line and closing line of the video are the two most important lines that sort of sum it all up if you have to skip everything just just to hear those lines so the opening line of that is it's 1300 bucks so it's pretty good but also a better be for that price so i hope so they covered that and then at the end it's more of uh you know the the word you look for this came from becca's video her impressions at the verge but the the word you look for for now the best

of samsung's lineup is no longer note it's ultra so you know s20 ultra note 20 ultra and the other the other note 20 which we don't have which i haven't seen anyone review yet i don't think anyone got that as a review unit and and I don't know if we will. I don't know if Samsung's as eager to push that one out. Exactly. So that Note 20, I think, might not have nearly the same positive impression. We've said it a million times. $1,000, plastic, 1080p, 60 hertz, not expandable phone.

That phone, I'm going to try to get my hands on anyway and review it uh and we'll see what happens but note 20 ultra that's out there then we did i'm gonna skip to the sony headphone review the wh1000xm4s i got that right yeah i'm pretty sure i saw you read it i read it screen also so i don't know if that counts but that's uh those are the headphones that we were waiting for for a while. It was over a year since the Mark 3s, and I love the Mark 3s. I will not fly without the Mark 3s. But there were just a couple small things where, like, on the plane, I'd have my phone for my music, and then once we get to cruising altitude, I switch to working on my laptop, and I want to just have music from my laptop.

Multiple device support was one of those things that it was just missing that other premium headphones had. They finally added it. They could have stopped there. That was just what I wanted. If you, if you stop listening now, you know,

the Mark four is have it. Um, but there's also a couple of other little features and those are now I will not fly without the Mark force. If we have a fly. I mean, it's a, it's again,

they're great headphones, terrible name, great headphones have a lot of things, and they're small little upgrades. There's not much you can do to make them that much better. Do they do anything weird for the Mark Vs, or do we even expect them to, I guess they will make a Mark V eventually. They're going to make, and they're going to change something. I guess the question is, are they going to add a new feature, or are they just going to say ANC is 10% better? Or is it just going to be a super, super minute upgrade? It was just like the one feature they were missing that others in the price range had, they added.

So now it's just like design, I guess. Yeah, that's a feature that some people might actually upgrade from the old one. Whereas if it's just an incremental update, who cares if it's X percentage more? Yeah, I could use the Mark IVs. I could use these headphones for 10 years, I think, and be really happy with them. But they're out.

So we'll see how long they go. What do you want to do next? Dope tech or? Let's do dope tech. Okay, which dope tech? Easiest one is the Xiaomi smart charger. I have this like running joke and I don't even know if it's a joke, but my, I liked your, your way of saying it can be used. Okay.

Let's, this does not seem something that's useful or worth it to most people. It's, it's a hard sell. It's a very hard sell. The question that I haven't been able to answer is how much is it actually? That's a good point. There's no way it's cheap. Right. Probably not.

Yeah. But if you haven't seen the video, just to fill you in, the Xiaomi smart charger, it's a 20-watt fast charger. So just imagine like a mouse pad sized wireless charger, right? It's white. Yeah, like a standard mouse pad. Yeah. Oh, yeah. sized wireless charger right it's yeah like a standard mouse pad yeah oh yeah and it's uh you know you put the the device in somewhere on the charger and then one or two seconds after you put

it down you start to hear this like motor this like motorized sound and a green light turns on and it moves the charging coil from the top corner to find and locate your device and then your device starts charging yeah so the added luxury is like you can just kind of put it down anywhere on this mat and it will find your device and start charging it that's cool okay you don't have to line up the coils anymore that's like a nice little perk a feature of having a nice motorized wireless charging pad yes i tweeted this people either loved it or thought this was so pointless that they would never even want something like this. But here's the cool thing, right? So when you take your device off the charger, it puts the coil back to the corner.

Then you put another device on it, it finds it again, right? Yeah. The way wireless charging devices behave is when something reaches 100% or when it finishes charging, it behaves the same way as if you just took it off the charger. The device tells it, okay, shut the coil down. We don't need this anymore. We're done. So if you put two devices on this charger, let's say two phones or one phone, one pair of Galaxy Buds with wireless charging, AirPods, whatever it is it will when the first one is done charging it will stop and move that coil to the second device because it sees that the first one doesn't need charge anymore like you picked it up and so that's kind of cool so if you have overnight like two things to charge put them both on the charger the pro tip is put the one you really want to charge down first because

that will charge first put the other one on second. When the first one's done, it'll move to the second one. That's pretty cool. That was dope tech. It is cool. First thing I would say about that is depending on price, you could probably buy two wireless chargers for the price of it. The first thing I didn't think about that when I first saw it and the first thing I thought about was if I'm so uncoordinated or under the influence of something that I can't place my device on a regular charger, I need something that's five times larger. You need the handicap.

If I'm so often, if I need the handicap so often, it's probably a pretty good pickup. I just think, yeah, wireless charging, the whole point of wireless charging is it's supposed to be a little bit more convenient than plugging in so i guess this is another step in the direction of even more convenient so it will be really cool if it wasn't so much just like a pad but say uh say you had like a nightstand where the whole top of it that's the future yeah that's the real future it would have to differentiate between like a lamp and stuff but so this is this is halfway between a normal wireless charging pad and a whole table being wireless charging okay yeah i like that take uh also in that video we had uh the hachi touchscreen so this was a sponsored integration they they sent this my way and they

wanted to be in the dope tech video so i said okay we'll check it out it turns out it's really it's pretty sweet it was i think it is i mean to just go on that it's sponsored they're not sponsoring anything about what we're gonna say in this podcast right now but like it is one of the best sponsored spots we've ever done just because of how cool the product actually was like it felt like it would be so gimmicky. Right. So the product itself is a touchscreen projector. So what that means is if you imagine a projector that is calibrated enough to know what surface it's projecting on at all times, it turns the surface into a touchscreen. So you project a tablet onto a wall and then start touching the wall and it starts interacting with the image. That's the basic concept. And I've seen really bad versions of this i think that's

what made me hesitant at first like you've seen there's like a keyboard yeah we had one it was like a little you just plug it into usb and it's maybe the size of like a roll of coins and it projected like a red just a keyboard it was off all it had to do was see what you were typing yeah and even that was like not that great so bad yeah so i see this whole thing and it's gonna give me a whole tablet os and it's gonna let me swipe and play games and type and all this stuff and we're like all right well if it keeps its promise that's pretty impressive and it did it was very impressive legitimately as i was setting it up and you have to like log in or like a user, I just started typing.

And I was like, oh, this is legit. I don't think I was even set up. And I called you over and I was like, type on this right now. Just type on it. And it was impressive. Check out the video. It has a bunch of other cool features. But just the fact that we're at a point where a projector can project on basically anything,

and then you can interact with that is kind of, it just really felt like the future. It was pretty wild. Hashtag future. It had the best comments. And last but not least, in that Dope Tech episode, we had the Galaxy Tab S7+. People loved or hated the title, which was the iPad Pro killer. iPad Pro evil twin. It's the best Samsung can do with Android right now, I think.

As far as Android tablets. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, it's the best one. Now, when you get into using an Android tablet, you very quickly find there's, you either use like three or four apps and you're set or you use like seven or eight apps and some of those start to get clunky and are not optimized and suddenly there's no great weather apps and you're sort of struggling to make it the iPad-esque experience. That's the main difference you'll find when you've used an iPad and an Android tablet.

But I love the screen on this tablet. I couldn't get enough of it watching videos. It's 120 hertz, 12-inch, quad HD, super amoled uh am i missing anything super bright in 16 by 10 resolution or aspect ratio uh-huh it's awesome just watch the video it's got this the s pen and the nine millisecond uh latency it's got all this this high high quality stuff but it's still an android tablet so uh you know the the ipad killer moniker is definitely up for debate there but yeah you get the idea so then the other dope tech yeah solo dope tech episode the boston dynamics robot we finally got to see it the pinnacle of dope tech i think as we've

gotten to at this point man we didn't get to see it we got to you drove it yeah and it was interesting that they they called it driving it i kind of wondered if they'd call it walking it or like or traveling it is they called it driving it but yeah if you haven't seen that video watch that one that's a fun one it was just so wild to me we get there we see it moving around and we're just like in total awe and before we our jaws even like came off the floor they hand you the controller and just like basically walk away and you're controlling it like i was still amazed at what this thing was doing and you're just walking down the parking lot with it and i just couldn't the the people there also told us like three years ago we would never ever

imagine handing over the controls and just letting you do whatever with it right it's come a long way and if you watch those uh mainly really if you go to the boston dynamics youtube channel you can kind of follow the arc of like what they've been making and working on and the form factor changes and the the factor changes and the the friendliness of the package overall because if you look at those like kind of terrifying like six-year-old videos you wouldn't even want the controls to that thing but yeah the you know the controls to spot where this android tablet you can walk it around pick stuff up you know go around the corners follow the cameras it is it's a whole experience. So I would

highly recommend going to watch that video. I think a lot of people who see that have seen the Black Mirror episode, which is, as they described to us, literally based on the Boston Dynamics robots. And they said they saw that episode and it was kind of a surprise to them. And they were like, oh, we would have loaned them robots if they wanted to yeah they wanted they said it was probably mostly cgi but he's like i could yeah we could have done that yeah we could we could let them have it now of course those robots did all kinds of crazy stuff so you probably i don't know if you want your robot associated with the murder robots from that episode but sure yeah that that was pretty funny so one of them also said one of them hadn't seen it and wondered how they defeated the

robots and they said paint and he was like huh that's pretty smart yeah it's a good idea just cover the sensors yeah yeah so uh they were great the whole team there was amazing they were so helpful and and just like fun to be around and they're creating something awesome i hopefully we can get one of them on the podcast when we can get people in again. But I would love to just hear full origin story of that because it seems like a wild adventure. It's one of those most unique products. You probably won't see anything like it. Also, speaking of getting people on the podcast, later in this episode, we shot most of that video with Canon R5s. So now we've had experience shooting Canon R5 and a7S III in the last month.

So we're going to have Vin and Brandon come in here and break the differences down. And maybe we'll have them make some picks. If we're going to outfit the studio with one or the other, they'll have to make their pick on the podcast. Can we? Do you know what episode was that where you and I had to take sides? Yeah. Oh, the Apple versus charger in the box? Right.

Let's give one of them Sony and one of them Canon. Oh, make them take a side. Well, let's have them duke it out a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So that will come later in the podcast, but that's the recap. That's the couple of videos which were a lot of fun this week. Then we can go right into content we liked,

and I already have one yeah this is all i want to shout this out okay so captain disillusion is one of my favorite youtubers he doesn't make videos very often but there are a couple channels that i follow that don't make videos often but when they do it's an event and it's it's awesome yeah mark rober is one of them nerd city is one of them like you can tell there's a ton of effort going into these videos and this one again it's a pretty simple video about color

it's not you know this drastically important topic or anything crazy but if you just sit down and watch this video from cover to cover it is incredible how much work goes into the animation the explanation the writing and just this whole video i highly recommend watching it it'll be linked in the show notes um captain and

and if you if you have a chance to check out the rest of his channel because all of his videos are like this um but the the theme of captain disillusion is he breaks down the illusion that a lot of videos that are you know fake viral videos or hoaxes or fake product videos will go into and he'll break it down from a vfx perspective and explain why things aren't real or why they are and it's it's awesome yeah i think if you were even remotely interested about this segment we did once about the uh the background that was bricking android phones and the color spec the color spectrum and everything of that watch this video because as much as i completely fumbled around trying to

explain that this is explaining all of that beautifully yeah just much much better it also helps that he uh gives a little shout out to waveforms as a video tool not the podcast but he shouts out waveforms in that video. So check that out and you'll, you'll see what we're talking about. So that's, that's what I want to shout out. Also, fun fact, we have another tech event to add to our power rankings. So we got Panos Panay from Microsoft explaining and presenting the Surface Duo, which is finally unveiled. Yeah. And you know, I don't have a ton to say about it now, because we're going to get our hands on it, and we'll probably do at least one video, maybe more,

and we'll talk about it plenty more on the podcast. But the presentation itself was, I thought, really good. It was given privately to journalists and people like me beforehand, and now it's on YouTube, you can go watch it it and it's basically him and the team just going through like what this is what it does how they've worked on it what they think's good about it and i think i'm gonna rank it what's our current ranking before we do this apple one apple one wwec yeah then you go straight down to we had the one plus ar event in the middle and samsung at the bottom i think that's it i think that's all we've done so far so i would put this at number two then i would

completely agree with it it was it was well presented but it was also very very humanizing as a as a company where it's a very small group of people appearing on camera but each of them clearly has a heavy involvement in the process and the project. And even Panos, like his infectious contagious passion for the project where he's like, you guys are getting this right? You have the camera angle? Okay, I just wanna show you how this works real quick right here.

All right, did you guys see that? That was great. All right, let's move on to this. It was good. It was a different style, but it was good. It was good for all the reasons the Samsung event was bad. Yeah. It's not to say that there

aren't people at Samsung who are equally as passionate about things but their stuff is so scripted where if Microsoft was scripted then he is the best actor I've ever seen because he just comes off as purely passionate about everything and it just felt so it was convincing yeah here's you and me sitting in a room and I'm just explaining to you why i love this and then on top of that well shot i think yeah would you say this is proving that going the route of um like not on a stage and not a like virtual live event it goes better off to do this like we're on campus you're kind of behind the scenes with us and the more of a production well comes off better so i think it's spot on the power rankings would say so i think the number one and number two apple and microsoft were not

simulating a stage event and i think number three and number four one plus and samsung were simulating being on stage again even though they didn't have to yeah so i think yeah it kind of speaks to that but i also just think having less uh people involved makes each person more impactful so yeah i think yeah we you know i'd love to talk to him more and i think we'll probably end up doing that but yeah i think it was really effective and even this is what my thought was is because he is so passionate about each point in this presentation, it's more convincing. I think if you had like six people try to read a script to explain what he was saying,

I would be wholly unconvinced that I want a dual screen tablet with a small battery and last year's specs and like a crappy camera and probably a lot of missing like support. I don't think I would want it, but because of the couple of points that he kept driving home about how, how our brain works and how they've been using this and the dual screens really, you know, I started, I was like, you know what? Yeah, I think I would give this a shot. So yes, I think when you see it on paper, you're like, this is dumb, $1,400. I don't want to surf as Duo. And I totally understand that. But I think giving it a shot might have us feel some of what they were feeling when working on it. It really makes it feel like he's been locked in a room with this for like six years. And he wasn't allowed to get out until he finished.

And now this is his entire, yeah, it's great. I'm honestly really excited for it. I don't know necessarily as a device I would want to use all the time, but I think it's just going to give us a totally different perspective on foldables in general. And even though it's hard to compare it to folding physical screens, I think the form factor of it looks great. And I think combining both of those we're going to be like we're going to have a feel for like this is the end game of what we want and between those

two devices we're going to really like start to know what we're looking striving what's your what's your take on foldables then is this a real future that will continue to evolve i think it's easy to say that foldables are a future just how far away we are from them i don't think we're that close as it being like a like everyday like a consumer project product feels way more like an enthusiast thing right now for sure and i think that's mostly because there's still so many faults that only enthusiasts who really want to see the ground level of it are getting excited about it some of them yeah i think when i look at samsung's 2 the z flip has even though it's so super expensive and again it's not ideal for a lot of people when you look at the people who use it and love it like quinn and austin and they they love using

that phone daily and i think that's really interesting and i also want to get a look at the what is it called now z fold 2 5g even though it's the galaxy fold 2 oh yeah so i want to see that galaxy fold 2 that from what i've seen in videos looks really interesting and we're still waiting for price and everything but yeah i think when i start seeing um less tech reviewers and more my mom my sister my aunt or uncle like having those in their pockets and like being like here's all the things i can do in this just for someone every day and i think that's when we're gonna be you know at the point and we're gonna be at that point i have absolutely no doubt that is going to be something in the future that's a really good way to look at it i just when i think of that audience i think like there's only like three phones now that have cracked into that

audience and it'll be a long time before like even because right now slab phones we've pretty much nailed that right like the glass sandwich with the screen on the front and the cameras on the back like there's it's really kind of just like are you gonna get an iphone or a samsung or that one alternative that's coming up yeah i think that has a lot to do with carriers also yeah but but yeah i see what you like but when a folding phone gets in there then then we're talking. Yeah. Okay. It'll make it. I just think we're a while away from it. All right.

Well, we've talked about this stuff a lot. Let's take a quick break. And then when we come back, we'll talk streamer updates. We'll talk Epic versus Apple. And then we'll come back and talk EOS R versus A7S III. We've got a lot of versus. Be right back. 7S3. We got a lot of verses. Be right back.

You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know. Ambition is on the inside. So that thing you love, keep doing it. Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. This holiday season, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health is counting on your support. CAMH is on a mission to because while you guys had a break we actually took a break because there's construction going on in the studio. Classic. So we actually stepped away and had to delay recording the rest of this but anyways we're back back we have some

streamer updates I know this is like kind of a reoccurring thing but there's been a lot going on on the streaming platforms and with streamers in general. So just slowly updating everybody with what's going on. Tell me what's happened. All right. So we all know Mixer went down. The two big, we were all wondering where Ninja and Shroud were going to go

because they're the two biggest. The biggest names, the LeBron Nike shoe deal ran out. Where is he going to go? This is Ninja. This is nike shoe deal ran out where is he gonna go this is ninja this is the new shoe deal yeah exactly um i mean they were kind of like the biggest streamers in general and they went to mixer and now mixer's gone so we know ninja went back he tried youtube but he's back on twitch now and now we know shroud is back as well but the weird thing that happened is while shroud and ninja were gone dr disrespect was arguably one of the biggest streamers on twitch we talked previously about how he got banned we still don't know why but he is now streaming on youtube i don't know if it's

exclusive or not but he did he had some wild numbers uh first day back peaked at 485 000 viewers which for streaming is you're saying like on live concurrent live concurrent viewers 485 000 people all watching the same live stream at once not for the whole time but but the peak of that stream that he did probably like six hours was yeah yeah um not much else to that story. It's just he's on YouTube. One thing that it did bring up is he streamed with PewDiePie for a little bit. With him? Yeah, they played this game called Fall Guys,

which I think I told you about before. For anyone out there, it's kind of like MXC or Wipeout, those shows where you have crazy obstacles, but in a video game style. 60 people start, and you have to make it through these obstacle courses and then you slowly get eliminated so that's those are just two really entertaining uh personalities i like that yeah yeah we should try and play it sometime but um now back to shroud first night back on twitch and he posted the statistics of his stream on twitter and they're we got a little deeper look and they're even crazier than uh dr disrespect so i'm just gonna go over everything

he posted okay duration was seven and a half hours jeez that's not that unheard of for streamers but like really thinking about that is i can't imagine man being on like on in front of people for eight hours when i have a five hour flight cross country i have trouble sitting in my seat the whole time without standing up so the fact that these guys are going seven hours plus and i assume like just sitting in the same chair yeah i mean the same thing they get up to like grab food and sometimes they'll eat like on stream quickly but that's a skill man yeah it's a skill um so his average viewers for the whole seven and a half hours were 222 000 peak viewers 516 000 so higher yeah um unique viewers 2.967 million follower he gained 254 000 followers just the first stream back and gained 16 and a half thousand subscribers if you don't know subscribers on twitch is the paid for content right so he gets

a cut if all of that was one dollar that means he made 16 and a half thousand dollars but it's definitely more than one dollar it's probably closer to at at least three right so that's one okay i'm looking at these numbers i like i like to compare like every platform is obviously different but when i see like you know groundbreaking numbers on one platform i kind of like to imagine them on the other and i think youtube is the one i know the best so i'm imagining a youtube video that went live seven and a half hours ago that has the same numbers. I'd be very impressed by 16,000, 254,000 new followers in seven and a half hours from one video. I'd be very impressed by that. I'm sure that's happened

maybe a dozen times on YouTube, but it's super rare. Gaining 250,000 subs? In seven hours. I think that's probably happened with a couple music videos and maybe one or two super viral, like everyone was looking, like the, what was it, James Charles, Tati Westbrook, like occasional really, really rare stuff. Crazy, okay.

But I'd be very impressed by that. Seven and a half hours, 2.96 million unique viewers happens all the time on YouTube. So that's the other thing. So the crazy part, and YouTube actually used to have a stat where you could see how many people were also watching a video with you. Oh, really? Yeah, so if you were signed in, you could see the usernames of the other users also watching the video at the same time as you. And they got rid of it. But that was so fascinating to me because I'd put out a video and I'd be able to watch like the arc of it

where like six people, 16 people, 29 people, and suddenly there's 50 people all watching the same video with you. And I'm sure if that happened, you know, with a video today, you could see that that arc again and it'd be really fascinating. But yeah i'd be curious if there's youtube videos out there with 200 000 500 000 people all watching it at the same time when it launches i bet that's also a music video type of number yeah and like uh i guess it's a little different what for streamers is especially when they have comebacks like this. Like Shroud had been teasing this for like a week. Dr. Disrespect did the same thing.

They both teased that they were coming up, and a week in advance they said like, this is the time to be ready for, so I'm sure people were getting it. Here's a date, here's a time. Get ready, get your schedule cleared up. Yeah, and a stream is also easy to like, I'm at work and I have a second monitor.

I'm just going to leave the stream active in case something happens. Where a video, you're like generally, a 10-minute video you want to pay attention to and know everything that's happening. So it's still just super interesting. We're at YouTube. Our numbers are way different

because they're just a different style of content and it's interesting looking into kind of other things like that. I know for sure I've never gotten different because they're just a different style of content and it's interesting looking into yeah kind of other things like that i know for sure i've never gotten 250 000 followers in seven hours on anything but i think uh 2.96 million unique viewers there have been you know phones when they come out where everyone is waiting for the iphone impressions video and it's like it's not a week build up but it's like a couple days where like the event happens and everyone's waiting and then boom the impressions goes up like that's those are the types of videos that will do crazy numbers and i always get a kick out of watching

those charts but uh yeah so now we know so doc youtube shroud twitch ninja twitch yeah and i think it just further proves that twitch is just so far and ahead of it like Mixer was kind of there fighting and then just disappeared off the face of the earth YouTube will always be there and have an option but Twitch is still go-to and I so I don't see anything Microsoft couldn't do it who can Amazon which owns Twitch never mind yeah amazon owns twitch uh yeah that'll be so microsoft couldn't pull it off with mixer there's not a lot of hope for that competition not a lot of hope no well speaking of competition we have uh i would say this is the biggest story in tech at least when it happened when it all went down and, and probably will be an ongoing long-term story.

Epic versus Apple and the rest of the world. I would say the main headline is Epic versus Apple and Google. Yeah, or saying, just if you don't know, Epic is Fortnite. Right. And Fortnite's a way more understood game, I guess, right now. Okay, so here's the bird's eye view, and then I want to break it down like part by part. Okay. But the bird's eye view is Epic Games makes Fortnite. Apple has the App Store. Google has Google Play Store. Let's just focus on Apple just to keep it simple, right? So in order to get Fortnite on your phone, your iPhone, you need to go to Apple's App Store, which they control, download it. And inside of Fortnite, the way that they make a lot of money, the way Epic Games makes millions and millions. It's a free-to-play game.

Yeah. Fortnite is free. But inside of that, there's a lot of microtransactions. Is that fair to call it? Yeah. Where you, like, upgrade things. You're buying new equipment. Yeah.

I wouldn't call it – calling it an upgrade is tough because nothing in it gives you like a competitive advantage there are a lot of games where you get like competitive advantages for something like yeah i feel like pay to play yeah these are all aesthetic things really cool aesthetic things but all purely aesthetic so all these things that you buy inside of fortnite you have to go through the mechanism of Apple's payment structure, and Apple takes a 30% cut of that. And it's not just that. They take a 30% cut of everything that happens through the App Store. If your app costs $10 to simplify, Apple is getting $3 every time you sell an app for $10. But that also applies to microtransactions inside the game. And so this was the sticking point.

Epic decided to push an update to the app that bypassed that 30% thing by adding their own payment structure inside of Fortnite. So they push this. It goes out to everyone's phones. Now they can buy microtransactions in the game and not have to give Apple a 30% cut.

That is against Apple's terms of service for the App Store. Instantly banned. Not instantly. It took a couple hours, but banned. They banned the app. And Epic knew that this was coming. As soon as they pushed this update, they knew that this was against the terms

and it was just a ticking time bomb before Apple walked into the trap and banned the app. And they had a lawsuit ready. They had an ad video ready. They had a remake of Apple's 1984 ad, but sort of like painting inside it. Yeah, painting Apple as like this big bad, the thing that they were trying to defeat. They're the monopoly now. It was quite an event it was a whole day so the same thing happened at google they pushed an update it's

against the terms of service they got banned they had a lawsuit for google too they didn't have a snazzy video though but the flashy i probably they i don't think they were expecting to get banned from the play store or i think they were placed or as quickly maybe not as quickly but they had the lawsuit ready as soon as it happened so they were they were ready for it but i guess yeah apple's better news also definitely the headlines fortnite versus apple is just like yeah almost everyone is gonna click on that who wouldn't so my perspective is actually my take is they can both be right, and as a result, they can both be wrong at the same time. So let's go through, we have this whole bullet for bullet thing where we can go through, but I think if you look at both sides of this,

it's like, oh, there's clearly an infraction here, they clearly pushed out an update that's against the rules, which means clearly they're going to get banned, and now they're going to sue because they don't think that rule is fair, but Hey, they signed the contract saying that they would go by the rule. Their argument is those contracts are the illegal thing. They shouldn't be able to make that, that 30% cut. Yeah. I think the way we just described it is the way most people are hearing it. And it's really easy to potentially pick a side there because you probably have a bias, but the more i've read about this and probably the more we'll

go through this it's like every time you read something you think oh i see where that's coming from or oh i don't know why that's happening there and you kind of yeah flip-flop on sides the more you read it and just i've come to the conclusion that I just don't know who's in the right, if either are in the right, if either are in the wrong. It's just so much, and it's going to be really interesting to see it all unfold. This is me really flexing the muscle in my brain that tries to see both sides of every conflict, and it's a lot. So I think the biggest point, the biggest sticking point is the 30% cut. Yeah, for sure.

So from Apple's, you want to go Apple or Epic's perspective first? Let's go Apple's perspective first. Okay, so Apple's perspective is we made this app store, right? We gave you the iPhone. We gave you iOS. We made this incredible ecosystem, and we gave you the app store. And if you want to build an app for it feel free and you might make money because we made this app store congrats we're giving you 70 it didn't used to be

so this 30 cut we're taking is just like yeah we we built the whole app store now we take 30 thank you very much because that's what we do and the perspective is you know if you sell a game in a physical store back in the day you had to pay for you know getting it on the shelf like there is all sorts of costs that were probably significantly more than i think tim cook said 70 50 to 70 you'd end up paying a much bigger cut so now apple's like we're giving you a discount thank you very much you're welcome we built this store we're allowing you to make money from like, we're giving you a discount. Thank you very much. You're welcome. We built this store. We're allowing you to make money from our store.

We're only taking 30%. Yeah, there's a couple other things you can think of that Apple is, that's beneficial in there. Because to just say like, we're, I mean, almost to say we're one of the world's largest marketplaces for like digital goods. Yeah, like is already a pretty decent selling point but if you think about the fact that they're hosting and delivering all the like them as a marketplace is they're hosting and delivering all these apps so it's making it

easier for people to download they're handling all the taxes and stuff that goes through it which when it comes to international taxes and stuff like that can be a huge pain in the neck yeah they're handling they do uh they handle kind of like reviewing in the developer side of a bunch of different thing and and helping developers make things compatible with ios yeah they also handle support or not all the support, but sometimes can be in like an intermediate between the consumer and the actual developer in an app, because most people who download an app and have a problem with it are going to call Apple because they downloaded it from the Apple store.

So now they're, they're handling support. And they're also like people trust Apple and trust the app store. So more people are going to trust transactions through the app store than they're going to trust transactions from something they may not like and that's that i think is a big point because apple uh and we'll get to the we'll get to the epic argument in a second but i think that's that is the the biggest pro and con of what apple has to do here which is they control that app store fully. Everything that goes through the app store, they review and allow, and then it gets to the app store. So they

don't have like explicit apps. They don't have like malware. They don't allow things that could be a bad experience because they want it to be a good experience. And so in order to enforce that, they have to have total control over everything. And so in that contract, like if you're going to have microtransactions, you can't do that through your own engine. That could be a horrible experience. You have to go through us so we can make sure it's not getting out of control. And by the way, we'll take 30% for making sure it's a good experience. So that's Apple's side of the 30%. Yes. All right.

So Epic, on the other hand, and maybe every other developer feels this way, but Epic's looking at 30% as like, you're just taking money from us. Yeah. Like we built this app. We are putting it on your app store. Why are you taking a massive 30%?

Maybe 5%, 10% isn't so bad, but I don't know if there's a count for how many millions of dollars they make um i have that that in 2019 uh epic had 1.9 billion in revenue oh my god so that's not just all through just the app store but still like we're talking about a billion dollar company so yeah you're talking about millions and millions, tens of millions of dollars at least. Apple is making tens of millions, taking tens of millions of dollars out of our pockets. And we're a company and we clearly also care about profits.

No one's gonna argue that big companies don't. We care about profits and we have overhead as well. Like, yeah, it's not a like physical product you're holding in your hands, but they still have developers and they have, they're huge company they have to pay people out research and development all sorts of marketing stuff like that so there's just more overhead for them and i'm sure they're not like hurting for money or anything but like no they're losing 30 to apple and that is that is the crux of their argument is that it's an unfair amount. And the way they're going about this lawsuit is there is not enough competition to, you

know, make Apple drop that 30%. Yeah. If there was more competition, more marketplace competition for, I guess, selling apps, there would be, you know, an app store that comes along and only takes 15%. And then developers would make their apps for that app store. And then Apple would drop to 10%. And then they go back to Apple. So there's not enough competition. And then you go back to Apple and they're like, well, we built this.

We built the iOS app store on the iPhone. We control it because we want there to be good experience. We don't allow other app stores on our phone. If you want to use our app store, fine, but it's our rules, pay to play, 30% please. So you can see both sides where there's like, clearly Apple's like, we need to have this control over the thing

to give you good experience. And we have all these expenses. We'll take 30%. It's less than it ever was in physical medium. In Epic, the developers on the other hand are like, and especially if you're not Epic, if you're another developer or a developing house where you do have a very delicate balance

between expenses and how much money you're making, 30% is a lot to give away. So yeah, it's tough to see that being a reasonable number when there should be more competition. It is. So a couple of points to put in. No matter what we say here, unless this podcast is seven hours long, we're not going to get everything.

And people are going to be listening and are going to say, you forgot about this. You forgot about that. So we're going to try our best to really like hit some of these parts. I also get in the weeds a lot. So yeah, we're going to get in the weeds. I don't think either of us are great at super long form storytelling but i think the whole point of this podcast is to get into the weeds so we might get a little passionate about things and forget but uh a couple points uh to share here which i find interesting um one

is that one of the things uh is it tim sweeney i just want to make sure i get the ceo of epic the ceo of epic yeah tim not tom right okay thanks sir tim sweeney he's been very vocal about this but uh epic is one of their arguments is that apple is treating games specifically as all all games that are put on the Apple App Store are 30% and they claim in their terms of service that they will be taking 30% equally from everybody, but it is not everybody. That's a big point. There are a lot of apps that they don't and why you might be thinking it, it's way more obvious than you think. Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, Chipotle, Burger King. Wait, I want to zoom out for a second first. So if you sell an app on the App Store,

you have to give 30% right there to Apple for the money you're making from the app, right off the start. So if you sell an app for money, then Apple's taking 30%. In addition, if you have a way to purchase things inside of your app, whether it's a microtransaction in Fortnite or buying extra content inside of the app already, then you also give 30% of that revenue to Apple. So even if you get the free Starbucks app and you want to go buy something with the Starbucks app, in theory, you would have to pay 30% of that to Apple. But that doesn't always exactly apply to everyone equally. No. And two things about that. The reason that probably started for games is because these free to play games are the new big thing where all their

money is made by in-app purchases so apple would make no money if they only did it on base cost because almost nobody does paid apps games anymore but then when you start looking at starbucks and whatever if star like apple is not charging them because they want a convenience thing with their phone they want people's phones to turn into their wallets pretty much and if i can go pay for my coffee with my starbucks app or i can buy chipotle order it and pay through my app it's going to be way like starbucks and chipotle are never going to create an app if they're going to get 30% taken away from them. So why would they care that you can pay on your phone? If Apple wants to be convenient and the go-to phone for

convenience and be able to sell convenience, they can't do that. Right. So I think the biggest, the biggest way to point out an exception to the rule is the deal Apple cut with Amazon, right? So Amazon, if you get the amazon app the amazon app is free but if you want to go buy a movie i think it's movies movie like maybe video and yeah if you want to buy something through prime video apple cut a deal with amazon or i guess amazon cut a deal where apple would only take 15 and it was kind of this loophole they made where it was like, oh, because it's movies, we want it to, it's a different rule for movies

and it'll only be 15% or they can cut a deal. And I think that's one of the points Epic's pointing to where like, just because they have enough influence then they can like mess with the rules and have something different. That doesn't seem like you're applying the rule fairly. 30%, we don't want it to be 30 either we want zero percent so there's there's that whole thing it doesn't seem to be evenly applied to everyone yeah it's also interesting because i don't know if they're necessarily necessarily saying they want zero

percent but one thing that uh he's brought up is that console creators or like console companies, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, they are also taking a cut of Fortnite's in-app, like microtransactions. The whole thing is you buy V-Bucks in Fortnite. It's like a currency inside the game. But that happens on Xbox, PlayStation, and Switch, but Epic doesn't care about that.

There's no lawsuits for that. And their reasoning is that uh hardware is not how sony microsoft and nintendo are making money hardware is like the consoles themselves the xbox the playstation the switch are all hardware pieces that are being sold at potentially a loss of profits to then make up for an experience that they can make money through their stores online etc like that so because they're providing a specific console that is made for gaming they're expecting to make their money through games whereas on pc and on android and on ios those are general computing systems that aren't made specifically just for

games so they're not in it to make money off of games right they're in it to provide general technology and that he believes that they shouldn't be getting a cut because they're making money in a million other places whereas you know sony microsoft nintendo are making money purely off of games so he thinks it's okay for them to make money off of them yeah yeah and i think a lot it's still like i don't know if it'll be as simplified as oh well they can make some money off of them but we don't like them making money off of us like it i think they're always gonna fight for their own margins oh yeah and that's why they're coming for apple also we didn't even talk about the whole Google Play thing.

So they did the same thing to Google minus the big shot for shot remake of the 1984 video. But yeah, there was also a policy in the Google Play Store where you have to go through Google approved transactions. And they push an update. They broke the rule, got banned from the Google Play Store store and they had a lawsuit ready for google too so that's the pushing the update thing and this is where you where i go immediately think like apple did exactly what they were supposed to do epic made the update and didn't get it reviewed they just pushed it so it was not reviewed and approved by the app store to be put into the app store because they knew there was no way it was gonna it's it's not reviewed and approved by the app store to be put into the app store because they knew there was no way it was gonna it's it's not just you can purchase it and bypass it it's you can purchase it at 20 off because apple would be taking 30 so if they do 20 off all their consumers

get pay less and they still make 10 more yeah so. So why would you ever say, oh, I want Apple to make 30% more money. I'm going to spend an extra five bucks on this just so Apple can make some money. Yeah. So they knew they were going to get banned. When they push an update, basically from their own servers to people's apps that they already had on their phones,

they bypass Apple's review and they break the rule. So of course they're gonna get banned the thing about android that i found interesting is epic has offered a side load version of fortnite before originally originally too so there is app store competition on android you can go through the play store i mean this is very technically speaking but You can go through the Play Store. I mean, this is very technically speaking, but you can go through the Play Store. You can go through other stores. You can download apps in the browser if you want to. And they offer this. And Android is so, you know, of course, because of security, they want to offer good experience. They have so many hoops to jump through to install through a third party. They have so many hoops to jump through to install through a third party.

They have so many hoops to jump through to install an app from the browser because there's so much less security and review there that regular customers didn't really do that very much. And they would just go to the Play Store. So at a point where they offered both sideloading and had it in the Play Store, people just went to the Play Store and just downloaded it there. Oh, yeah. And that made perfect sense. There's the Galaxy Store, people just went to the Play Store and just downloaded it there. Oh, yeah. And that made perfect sense. There's the Galaxy Store on Samsung phones. Fortnite is in the Galaxy. Is it called the Galaxy Store?

I think it's called the Galaxy Store. I'm not sure. I know it was like, I think it was preloaded onto the Note 9. It was. That's when they did like the big event. Yeah. But yeah, so you can get the, you can go through the Galaxy Store and get it on your Samsung phone or the Play Store or sideload it. So there is competition, but they still are against that policy and still had a lawsuit ready.

So I thought that was a little interesting. Yeah, Google makes it very nerve-wracking to sideload things. As a nerd, as someone who's done it for years, it's just like three buttons, clicks. But each one of those button clicks is a little weird to someone who's never done it. Oh, yeah. Where they're like, are you sure you want to allow this uncertified thing to run? And then you go, yes.

And they go, okay, go into the settings and uncheck this box. And you go, oh, okay. So you go into the settings, uncheck it, and then go back. And they're like, all right, you said you wanted this. Are you sure? the settings uncheck it and then go back and they're like all right you said you wanted this are you sure and you have to hit yes again and you know to us it's just like yes yes yes i want this launcher i want this this third party remake of dark sky where now it's darker sky and i have a clone of an app that's supposed to be dead but like i know what i'm doing but for regular people that's uh it's a little weird yeah so uh do you

want to cut to the cut to the front of the roller coaster line you just can't wear a seat belt you'll probably be fine but you're sure there's no seat belt and suddenly you're uh you're not so sure anymore so yeah that's I found that a little interesting with the the play store the whole thing is like pretty wild and like even just talking about this here it's just every time we say something i i start thinking well apple's totally in the right well epic's kind of in the right too they they if this is what they're truly but it kind of comes down to remember when we talked about apple and feeling like are they really not including a charger because of profit margins or are they doing it to save the environment right is epic doing this because of profit margins or because they really want to be that

knight in shining armor for all the smaller developers who are taking on the the monsters of google and apple and it makes it hard to believe that when in the lawsuit they talk about the epic game store that they want to launch because they have this on PC already. They have an Epic Game Store on PC that sells other games and they take a percentage from. The percentage is much smaller. I think it's 12%. So it's like way, way smaller, but still, they still do it. So when you're talking about them, they want to launch competition.

So is this really for the the big guy taking fighting for the little guys facing the like the deities or is this yeah i think i think both i think both companies have a little bit of good guy bad guy to all of their arguments yep so you can say wow seems like they're just really hungry for profit and the 30 is too big of a chunk of the money they're just really hungry for profit and the 30% is too big of a chunk of the money they're just making all the time. But also, yeah, the other side of the argument is they're sticking up for all the other developers who can't deal with that 30%.

On the other side, the Apple good guy, bad guy thing happens too, where it's like Apple can say, we want this to be as safe as possible. We want this beautiful walled garden where you guys know exactly what you're gonna get and there'll be a good experience with the app store and we need to exert full control here.

And this 30% is a discount from what consumer goods have always been. So look at all the good we're doing. But on the other side, it's like, yeah, we can just do whatever we want here. We can make 30% even though we're not spending that much extra money reviewing the apps. Of course we review the apps, but 30%?

Jeez. And now Apple's a $2 trillion company, so how bad do they need that 30%, right? They wouldn't be there without that. Yeah, but it's still like there's a good guy, bad guy to all of it. Yeah, on either side. And I think if you have a bias because there's a good guy, bad guy on both sides, it's so easy. It's easy to see the good guy from one side and the bad guy from the other side. Yeah, it is.

I think I'm someone who I'm not a Fortnite fan by any means. I understand it's been big and I don't really use that many Apple products. So I'd like to say I'm pretty unbiased in this. And I just really, if I had to pick a side, I don't know what I would really, really pick here. I hope in the end, whether Epic is doing this for margins or whatever, I do hope that somehow smaller companies

get some sort of benefit out of this, because as an indie game company like you are just understanding that you're creating a game that is just going to get money ripped away from it no matter how hard you work and so if i am if i am apple i'm looking at this lawsuit i'd be at from epic and being like wow what a bunch of jerks the outcome i'm hoping for is we win this and it goes away and everyone goes back to not really complaining too much and just paying the 30%. If I'm Epic, I am hoping for the outcome of Apple loses or at least realizes the 30% is too much and will be a

sticking point for developers forever if they never address this hopefully they lower this and and maybe there's some more competition and the third i think is the key is if you're not epic or apple if you're like another developer in any developer making a game making an app on the play store or the app store you see these lawsuits and you're hoping for the customers to win you're hoping for at least a lower percentage being taken out of your pocket from that balance of money that you need to keep the games and things going uh and i think uh epic is like maybe the one company that can actually fight they are they are the ones who can do it they uh they've leveled up enough to be able to take on the boss but um this is the boss fight this is the boss fight this is they're about to try and

beat the game or toss in the closet forever because they're frustrated they can't beat it um or let's let's throw a fourth option in there let's just get a tim sweeney tim cook uh cage match and gloves yeah let's figure this out on the boxing boxing ring see it in the octagon down that'd be way better than jake paul versus ksi roy jones jr fighting mike tyson with the undercard of tim sweeney and tim cook battle of the tims yeah wow what a what a 2020 man okay well yeah i think that's that's probably where we cut this segment uh we're gonna get into a whole bunch more verses but it's gonna be in the camera world so we'll be right back take a quick break this is an ad from better help this holiday season do something for a special person in your life you give yourself the gift

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we haven't actually had them on the podcast before even though they spend tons of time in the studio with us so welcome vin and brandon creative and art director at mkbhd wizards behind the camera welcome to the podcast thank you for that intro i love being a wizard yeah i think it's a fair description um just for those of you who don't know, like the pandemic making me shoot a ton of videos by myself has made me realize, well, number one, it feels more like a throwback to like the early days of when I was starting to make videos and didn't know much about production. And then made me realize how much I miss having a team make the videos better. So there have technically been more videos since the pandemic started, but I, in my opinion, they've been slightly lesser quality and I'm just so happy to have the team back. And we're working in a responsible fashion, wearing our masks out and all that, but I think that's really important. But we're here to talk

cameras because at this point, it's a little more exciting in the camera world. It's actually kind of an eventful month. We've got a 12K Blackmagic camera. We got Komodo that we might touch on for a second, but we specifically shot with two of the most exciting ones, which are Canon R5 and Sony a7S III. Right off the bat, do you guys have any strong feelings about any of these cameras? We shot the Tesla Model Y video with a7S III, and we shot the Boston Dynamics video with Canon R5. How are we feeling about them? I mean, just coming from two very different shoots in a lot of ways. I don't know, they're both incredibly impressive cameras uh and we use them

in kind of uh different ways like for model y we had it on a ronin s which was connected to a monopod which we were slinging off the back of a car no not not traditional fun exactly i don't think like the average vlogger does that. No. Not quite. But, you know, R5, we had two R5s on the Boston Dynamics shoot. And they were, were they both on Ronin-S? No, mine was on Ronin-S. The other one was just handheld. Yeah.

Yeah. But, I mean, right off the bat, quality of footage looks really impressive on both. They're kind of the cameras that I would like to spend a ton of time with to really get to know well. But just first impressions, really impressed. Yeah. So I have the R5 here. We had two R5s because I bought an R5 and got it and then got another one loaned from Canon

when we had the two. We had the a7S III loaned. I also bought one, but don't have that yet. So we will be spending more times with these cameras. But I figured the versus is really interesting because I feel like the internet sort of takes sides on everything. And why not go through those two sides of these two cameras in like a perspective that most people don't have which is we've shot with both so the question is does vin or brandon

want to represent the canon r5 while the other is the a7s3 you were saying vin you have more more sony shooting experience in the past is that that right? Yeah, I've owned two Sony cameras. Okay. Yeah, I started off with the a7S. That didn't last too long. And then I found the a6300. I stuck with that for a long time. That's a pretty great value camera that I feel like I've recommended from that series before.

A6000, a6500, 6300. How about we do Vin is a7s3 brandon is canon r5 i'll take it fight okay that's it just go no i'm just kidding i think the number one question is uh actually weirdly overheating so did we have any overheating problems with either camera i know no no okay that's because well the the shoots we were on like there was no time where we left it rolling for like i'd say 10 minutes plus right we we tend to kind of plan out our shots i don't know i mean with with with um a a7 III, I'm terrible with names. With A7S III, we did have those cameras rolling for a while with some of the laps that we did. I mean, I'm not sure time-wise.

It goes so fast. But, like, I would say that we had it rolling for probably 10 minutes or so. Um, but I mean, in that time, um, we were in blaring sun and it was almost like 90, like some degrees out. So, I mean, you know, definitely extreme conditions. Um, but you know, you know, bringing the camera back into the car after the take, it was warm to the touch, but it was functioning perfectly fine for both. I think the Sony got got warmer like in hand the canon never really got warm interesting yeah what uh what settings were you guys shooting at

on canon though because we've seen a lot of overheating stuff online but that's because it shoots 8k as well right and that's where it's like really bottlenecking see can i can i can i go on the r5 for a little bit yeah so sure it doesn't shoot 8k all the time like you can't just consistently roll that it's going to destroy your cards but the 4k hq i really wanted that to be like the main one you use to shoot i believe that doesn't shoot in 30 fps oh wait yes it does we actually found sony yeah yeah i think found it in the menus they have like different menu systems but we did find that it would shoot so it's 4k hq 30 fps full frame and with sony we were also full frame for 4k 30 fps and there's a couple different quality, but it was generally their high quality mode.

I thought actually the longest time that I shot with a seven S was when you guys weren't here. I just did like the a roll where I was driving around doing laps with it, just recording me. And that was like a half an hour. So it was a half an hour of driving straight recording. Didn't pause. Didn't, didn't overheat or anything, which was good for the a7s. And we again, shooting outside didn't have any

problems with heating for the r5. But again, if we had shot 8k, which we didn't, or if we had shot, you know, constant rolling for 4k HQ for a long time, maybe we would have run up to that. But I feel like that wasn't actually an issue for us. that's good i think then another topic would be autofocus so between r5 and a7s3 is one of them notably better than the other are we just looking at just really great autofocus systems at this point can i go back to the 4k hq thing yeah so in the middle of the shoot we had to switch to like the normal 4k okay so that's like another thing where like apparently the overheating doesn't happen in the lower the slightly lower mode and that was a space thing like we had a smaller card and we had to just stop crushing all of our 128 cards or whatever they were yeah yeah so that's like another factor okay both the shoots were yeah they were kind of different because like for the car you do a lot

longer takes because we're just driving in circles yeah so definitely i don't we kind of didn't put them through exactly the same condition but 4k hq i think it still overheats yeah after maybe so it would overheat after less time than 8k but it wouldn't go as long as the sony which just as far as we've seen doesn't overheat it doesn't yeah so that's that's to note about our shoots does sony still have the straight recording limit no no it does not finally 7s3 lifted that which is okay god i that's something that's actually huge i haven't heard about that at all i haven't been as informed but one thing i mean i i would have been really curious to see how the r5 would have performed if we had used it in place of the A7S3. A7S3.

I still am terrible with that name. I wish we had both during the same time. Yeah, because I mean, like, we out the window or whatever, had it on a monopod on a Ronin outside in 95 degree heat, shot 8K and did like our couple minute long loops. Do you think it would have actually become a problem? Heat? I'd say it's possible. It's hard to speculate because I don't know. We don't want to say it would have become a problem, even though we never had any problems.

But from what I've seen, it's like you get to like 15 to 30 minutes and it starts to become a problem yeah i'd also like to throw in that we were turning off the r5 like yes pretty often smart during the uh spot shoot so i guess that's why it didn't overheat yeah for the tesla shoot we wouldn't have been able to do that because it was at the end of a like six foot pole driving around constantly trying to get the frame before we're recording or just trying to make sure brandon's not going to fall out of the back of a car so we had more things to worry about than turning off the camera between things so yeah um that would have been different i also kind of on a different subject but how do you think those rf lenses would have been different i also kind of on a different subject but how do you think those rf

lenses would have been on the end of a ronin s at the end of a monopod that's a big deal front heavy they're thick they are thick yeah you got to rig it up a little more differently maybe you need the little the extended plate with the the lens support to like bring it back would it forward like that on a gimbal though would it start clicking the back of the um i've had i've had i've had i've had some pretty uh large lenses on that ronin s before uh and it hasn't been too much of an issue um i'm thinking back to using like an 18 to 35 from sigma that's pretty comparable which is a pretty pretty long lens so the 15 to 35 from canon yeah yeah it's about the same size that wasn't an issue for me um i think you know more so it's just like weight distribution um that's the only thing that that really would make me question that i forget what lens we were slinging on the ronin s for the spot

shoot specifically but i think it was this 1535 was it the 1535 yeah okay yeah hell no we were not using the 28 yeah yeah so for those who don't know canon's rf lenses are pretty chunky pretty big lenses right so we had we had the a7s3 and we had like a small 16 to 35 and some small lenses on it sony makes some small native lenses and then if you look at canons r5 or just rf lenses in general they're like bigger than the actual cameras the 28 to 70 is i think three times the weight of the camera itself so if you're trying to fly a lightweight thing on a ronin like we are that's actually not ideal. So we kind of avoided the biggest Canon RF lenses.

But, you know, it's a little 15-35. Turned out to be okay. But I want to jump back into the Versys because there's like maybe two more things. I think autofocus, I'm just going to say I really think they're both great. Like I've shot like handheld with them both. And I guess right now I'm biased because I'm also doing a lot of stuff with the Red Komodo, which has this super basic, very simple contrast-based autofocus. And this blows both of them out of the water. So I'm happy about autofocus for both of them. I don't know if you have any other words about that. I mean, I have a little bit of a story

about the R5 with autofocus on the spot shoot. There's, there was this one shot that we were doing where we were sort of, I was, I was, I was tracking backwards through this like forest area and spot was coming out from behind a bush and like it was, it was tracked to spot as, as he was going around the bush to start the actual shot. It tracked on the spot even after the point where I couldn't even see him. Like it was fully tracked on where he was behind that bush to the point where I couldn't see him.

Completely stayed locked throughout the whole entire shot. And honestly, like that's the type of thing that just like blows my mind when it comes to autofocus it's sentient it knows seriously though it's like better than if you had a like an it's like someone pulling focus for you i was gonna make a joke about how it had like animal eye detect autofocus turned on even though it's a robot dog but i it's just it's good it might have worked it might i mean there's four legs on the front it looks like it looks like a face um okay my my sticking point between eos r5 and sony a7s3 and it's this has been my sony versus canon thing for way too long is color color science dynamic range overall image quality and ability to match with other cameras and for this i'm just gonna say I prefer the R5. That's just been my experience.

But the a7S III is easily the best version of Sony color science I have ever seen. Does that ring true to what you guys have found? I'm so excited. Vin is the most critical color person I've ever met and I can't wait to get him. There's a little backstory here because i'm a sony boy i've dealt with a lot of sony problems okay so like i feel like

different camera brands teach you different things about like filmmaking like canon since the color is already straight out the box you can just pretty much use it like there's like a different approach where you worry about like your camera movement or something and when you shoot sony because i mean maybe it's because i did all the research and everything i understood that like i was kind of handicapped in these like aspects of the camera so i i had to learn how to color. I had to learn how to light a little better to like make up for the still pretty bad color back then. And I don't know what happened, but the Canon footage to me looks magenta

and that's been a problem for Sony. Interesting. And now it's like, it feels like they switched. How the turns have tabled. The turn of the table. Wait, so just clarifying, you're saying the R5 is magenta? To me, yeah. Well, at least for the shoots that we were on.

Okay. Fascinating. And the one thing we did with these shoots that we don't normally do is we had auto white balance going. that we don't normally do is we had auto white balance going. So it is possible that if we had had manual white balance and we'd gone out and every single shot, we'd adjusted it, we could have probably nailed it. But I think when we're just running and gunning and we're just doing loops around a building,

we're just gathering shots. I think auto white balance is one of those things where like, yeah, let's trust this. This will be all right. And so, yeah, it is possible thaty's auto white balance has caught up and just overall color science to the eye i mean it looks good but uh yeah i don't know it's it's a toss-up for a lot of people i guess for me like canon color science has always been a bit it's always prioritized a warmer um i'd of type of tone right which is really great

for skin tones and all because like it kind of gives it that golden kind of um finish in a way um i did not see that with r5 footage to to sort of um back back vince point i think uh there's absolutely something to the fact that it's like it does kind of shift magenta weirdly specifically shadows too yeah i feel like i did see that so uh we were messing with the different luts that you can use to sort of we we shot c-log so we're we're not just using the raw footage we're correcting it back to rec 709 color space and yeah i feel like i did notice shadows being cooler generally on r5 i didn't mind it but i it's not something i feel like i noticed with previous canon cameras so i was interesting but i mean in general if you're looking at r5 versus a7s3 they're similar in price they're similar in size they're similar in functionality and so that

the main difference you start to get is like do i really want 8k for some things or not do i really care about overall heat what is my lens collection right now am i a canon shooter already or do i have sony lenses already that's the type of thing that's going to affect your decision more than the actual quality of the camera i mean these are both great cameras so i've been pretty happy about them chances are you don't have rf mounts lenses already though i know you can get an adapter but you can also throw an adapter on it so there's only like seven of them so far yeah so lenses i feel like it kind of even again because a lot of people had ef mount right beforehand but now you're not really benefiting from that as much it's easy to adapt to ef but if you want like to go straight native and use autofocus and stuff like that you

probably want to get rf lenses so yeah i think that's that's basically how i'm feeling about them i have another versus and this has nothing to do with cameras but I wanted to bring it up because I just did a Twitter poll. Did any of you guys see my Twitter poll this morning? Yes. You saw it already? You all saw it already? Yeah. Oh, I was just going to ask what you thought the results were.

We're all talking about what they were. Can we all pick a result first? Okay. The poll was, in smartphones, do you prefer meh battery but really fast charging or huge battery slow charging so i'm thinking like like one plus nord or rog phone 3 and it was so far it's only been like an hour but it's very close to 50 50 yeah it's like 53 47 or something like that with a slight edge going to bigger battery how do y'all feel about the iphone having small ish battery but also slow charging what should they

go for should they go for a bigger battery or just faster charging because you can't have both i know a lot of people want both but it's it's kind of a challenge in a smartphone to pick one what would you pick who wants to go first? I like the thought of having a big battery and just letting it, like, I let my phone charge overnight, so that doesn't really matter. And I'd rather it last me the whole entire day, if not two days or three days. Give me that, and I'll be happy. So that way I charge less. But I don't know.

Some people like replugging in what like, to me, that seems weird. I like the logic that most people charge overnight, right? So that the smart thing to do for the masses for most people is to just make it last all day and assume that they're going to plug it in overnight. In which case fast charging doesn't matter, just give them like wireless charging or some some average charging speed but i have found i i like both like i like that if i am running lowish somewhere in the middle of the day i plug in the other day i just i had my my one plus eight pro was that what it's called yeah one plus eight pro um i had down it to like five percent or something like that and i just had to plug it in for a few minutes while I went and did something and came back.

And it was at 73%. And I was like, this is amazing. Why can't every phone have fast charging? But if you had a phone with a bigger battery to begin with, you never would have been in that situation. Right. So I'm just easily impressed then. Yeah. I feel like you would only actually pick small battery fast charging if you were so irresponsible that you couldn't charge your phone every night.

If I have a phone that's guaranteeing me a full day, even if it's a busy full day and a lot of usage, I can plug it in every night. I don't consider myself that responsible, but I think that's one thing that I can do every night. See, that's the funny thing. but I think that's one thing that I can do every night. See, that's the funny thing. So like I voted already and I voted for larger battery, but it's been like, what, maybe an hour since then. I've changed my mind.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum now. I think it ultimately depends on how fast we're talking in terms of charging. But ultimately, like if I'm out in the middle of nowhere and I'm running to something, say like I'm about to hop on a train and like I have five minutes to charge my phone before it dies and then I don't have access to a charger. I want to be able to get the max out of that. Yeah. Here's the other thing, though, about this tradeoff. here's the other thing though about this trade-off both of these trade-offs add thickness to your phone but the battery size itself is typically a bigger size trade-off so when you when you talk

about having like a 6 000 milliamp hour battery in a phone there's no way around it that's a thick phone that is a thick battery in a phone right you could feel the heft it's gonna be a beefy phone but if you want a xiaomi phone or whatever we've seen with a hundred watt charging and a four thousand milliamp hour battery like that's all right you might kill it by the end of the day but that doesn't necessarily have to be a thick phone it can be i'm not i don't hate thick phones or anything but like that doesn't have to be a big heavy phone so that trade-off is something i think i also consider i don't i didn't want the rog phone not because of its thickness but i feel like it's just a gigantic phone and i'm looking at like a a slightly more handleable phone with fast charging as like better to me but in terms of thickness in terms of holding it around

with you blah blah if you're expecting to charge more you're now carrying a cable with you uh not in your pocket but that means you have to have your backpack if you don't have your backpack okay now that fast charging is completely useless and if you had a thicker phone that's fair there's there's a whole more like debate and like fighting here we're way too calm about this it's really making me mad we're just agreeing that there's big battery yeah do we have boxing gloves dude it's because we're six feet apart you know yeah this is the second podcast boxing in this podcast we already talked about tim sweeney and tim cook doing a boxing match usually we're outside of our computers while you guys are doing this like you know this being the

first time i'm in here i'm really a huge proponent of getting a boxing ring here. They're going to start dropping from the ceiling for guests if we have them. Yeah, as soon as two people disagree, boxing gloves come out of the ceiling. I'm so down with that. Let's settle this. We could make that happen too, Rocky style. We have the budget. We could just start dropping accessories from the podcast room ceiling.

Can that be a segment? If we come up with a good enough name. A weird sound segment. Very weird on audio only, but still definitely fun. Very dumb. Vin, Brandon, thanks for joining us for this segment. I feel like we'll have you guys on the podcast more. Now that we're all back, we just want to do team stuff.

So we'll have you guys on the podcast again. Let us know on Twitter what you guys think if you could only have a big battery and slow charging or a small battery and fast charging pick a side let us know what you pick i'll block you if you pick small and he'll block you pick small battery there it is thanks for listening catch you guys in the next episode pace waveform is brought to you in part with studio 71 and our intro outro music was created by Cameron Barlow.