Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - Is Apple Breaking the Law?

Episode Date: March 29, 2024

This week, we finally talk about Apple getting sued by the Department of Justice in the United States, but only after talking about Threads finally federating (kinda). We also discuss the upcoming developer conferences that were announced by both Google and Apple and talk about what we expect to see. Lastly, we talk about Full Self Driving and break down what exactly you get with each tier of Teslas autopilot. Of course, we wrap it all up with a little trivia. Enjoy! Links:  Threads on ActivityPub: https://bit.ly/3TYoCeV Verge Threads Fediverse Beta: https://bit.ly/3x8AW32 PixelFed: https://bit.ly/3TT6xie Google I/O: https://bit.ly/4aCcshf Apple WWDC: https://apple.co/3TFuI2a Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra Galaxy AI Fine Print: https://bit.ly/3vyqtxC Galaxy AI Story: https://bit.ly/4aa8k8r DOJ Sues Apple: https://bit.ly/3TD4vl5 DOJ Court Document: https://bit.ly/3xdnM4R Electrek Elon Musk FSD: https://bit.ly/3TBH1wC Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Socials: Waveform: https://twitter.com/WVFRM Waveform: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David Imel: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin TikTok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things, and it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal Plus sound system,

you can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all-new, reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature. Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. All right, time to break down a lawsuit. This is the fun part. Oh, yeah. Yay. This is the fun part. Oh, yeah.

Yay. This is going to be interactive, by the way. I designed it to be interactive. In what way? Like, click Q&A. You'll choose your own adventure. Q&A style? In what way?

We're just going to throw apples at you every time we get here. It's 4D. Points will be rewarded. All right, what is up up people of the internet? Welcome back to another regularly scheduled episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marques. I'm Andrew. And I'm David, the actual David, not the other

David Pierce that you should all go watch the episode that we just published earlier this week. That was smooth. That was, yeah. Well played. Well played. I was wondering why you didn't write that in the script because you just had it ready to go. I actually didn't have it ready to go. It just came out. Wow.

It was good. Yeah, if you didn't already watch our productivity-based apps versus alarms. Andrew's mess of a life. You should check it out. It went up this past week, and it's super fun, and it's prompted a lot of people to diagnose us with various things, which is totally cool, too. But I think it's it's super fun and it's um prompted a lot of people to uh diagnose us with various things which is totally cool too but i think it's still uh worth watching but this week

we got a lot to talk about because uh we missed some stuff that technically happened last week because you know how we record on wednesdays and then all the news happens on thursday and we're like why did the us sue apple the day after we record the podcast that crazy. So we got a lot of Galaxy. I had to talk about DubDub, IO, FSD, just all acronyms. DOJ. The acronym episode. Yeah. So we're going to talk about all that stuff. But we should start with the Fetaverse.

Yeah. We should start with the Fetaverse. Yeah. Yeah. I am not, so I use threads, but I don't keep up as much with mastodon and others like blue sky yeah but there's apparently finally some developments with uh activity pub and connecting all of them so why don't you explain what's happening because yeah i might have to change so this will probably be a wider episode later on um because we're sort of working on like

a what do these protocols mean? What is the Fediverse? What is ActivityPub? There's all these acronyms and weird names. It's a universe of cheese. Yeah. That's what I've been thinking. Yes. Federation. Okay. So Threads is one of the platforms that is starting to adopt

ActivityPub, which is this open standard published by the W3C, which is the World Wide Web Consort the w3c which is the worldwide web consortium because we love standards groups i acronyms baby love standards groups uh and effectively what activity pub is is you can kind of think it think of it sort of similarly to email it's like i could send a message on gmail i could send a message through outlook but because it's a open uh platform or an open um protocol protocol protocol thank you you can receive you're going to receive that the same way no matter what platform you're on so if i'm on threads which is now federating which is

it means they're using activity pub uh-huh there's a lot of words that are being used. Yes, I can't wait for the bigger episode. I can, yeah, the bigger episode's gonna help everyone understand this a little bit easier. Basically, if you post something on threads, if I post something on threads and you on Mastodon are following my threads account through Mastodon, which you can now do, you will see my threads posts on Mastodon.

And there's a lot of benefits to this. It allows you to choose like what platform you want to use. So you don't have to hop back and forth between all these different platforms all the time. This is a very big move overall because threads has like a hundred million users, which is crazy. I think over a hundred million users.

They blasted past a hundred million. Blasted past in the first like couple months. Yeah. And the thing about Act pub is theoretically the more platforms that start to support it the more interoperable they become the more incentive there is for these closed services like x to support activity pub because the there's all this thing about the stickiness of an application, right? And there's these social graphs. And if your social graph is on an activity pub enabled platform that allows you to see their posts on whatever platform you're using, instead of only being able to see their stuff on like X or a closed source platform, you're going to be more incentivized to federate i think that's probably usually true but in the case of x formerly twitter where they're already one of the top 10 biggest websites in the world they might not feel that pressure are they yeah x's by like

hits yeah really it's just when you're that when you're that big already as far as yeah as a social media platform for sure but then but the thing is you could think of like mastodon plus threads as one social media platform now right and so the more the more social media platforms that people are using like every now and then that federate kind of add to this glorb that becomes the omega social media it raises the floor because if you if you were to start like a brand new social network today you would definitely want to be federated you'd want to have all of the interoperability because otherwise there's no one there and no activity yeah so you if you're way down at the beginning you definitely want to

raise the floor to include that right but once there is all the competition of, okay, mine's different because it has these features, mine's different because it has this UI or these rules or whatever, then once yours maybe starts to take off, that's not as important. For sure. And if you never were in in the first place and you're sitting over here

and you've got this whole social graph. All these features, maybe there isn't as much incentive. It's an interesting dynamic though. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah, I think that platforms like X that are not planning on federating don't have incentive to add activities pub support until

a time in which they become the non-dominant social platform yeah until it's necessary for them essentially right so anyway um meta has been talking about adding activity pub support for a long time which feels weird and interesting because you know mark zuckerberg yeah like they don't have it and they don't need it they don't yeah they're a big platform already they don't necessarily need to there's a lot of reasons why that makes sense from a business perspective that mark zuckerberg has kind of figured out i think he's kind of the king of making it seem like they're doing things that are just like good for the open web, but actually have like a really, really good business incentive behind it. I always say companies this size, anytime they make a public decision, there's always the reason they tell you.

Yeah. And the real reason. Exactly. And this is probably one of those. Yeah. So anyway, Threads just opened the Fediverse beta in the US, Canada, and Japan, which basically means if you turn this on in your settings, people on Mastodon or other federated activity pub enabled platforms can follow your Threads account.

So you on Mastodon can follow davidamel at threads.net. And when I post something on Threads, you'll see it on Mastodon. Can it go the other way around now if you have that enabled so on threads you can follow people on mastodon or other not yet okay so this is right now the beta is just making it available on there but their ui or whatever yeah doesn't have the capabilities it's like super beta because like ultimately what they want to be able to happen is that when people comment on mastodon i'll also be able to see those comments on threads right but right now the the amount of beta that it

is right now is like when i post things on threads people can see those on mastodon and they can like and comment them on mastodon and they show up in threads but they don't show up in threads they will eventually, but currently no. When this is fully fleshed out, what does this look like? This is, let's say, Mastodon, Blue Sky and threads are all federated and this is fully fleshed out. So Blue Sky uses a different

protocol called the app protocol. Throw out Blue Sky. Yeah, throw out Blue Sky. So, fast forward here. I think my point is this is confusing but i want to understand so they're fully federated and they are fully uh okay all plugged in the way they're supposed to what does that look like okay so perfect scenario uh i have a threads.net account i don't necessarily need a master mastodon account but they both use activity pub so i'm pub i'm posting on my threads account david

ml at threads.net you on mastodon are like oh david doesn't have a mastodon account but i see his threads account i can follow his threads account so you follow me on mastodon because that's your primary application of choice that you like to use i'm posting on threads you see my posts you can comment like i can see your comments and likes on threads so it kind of just feels all like one giant native social application oh wait i have a question yeah as many questions doesn't mastodon have like a lot of different servers though so wouldn't you as a threads user need to be in the mask no no no because i'm assuming if you're following them then you're like i don't use mastodon but i thought the servers was just like ways that you can find people or like yeah i thought it was

like a walled garden like no so you can think of different mastodon servers that you join as like the at threads.net it's where you're being hosted right right and so those different mastodon servers can have different moderation tools they can have different like all these different things but the content stream the reason it's called activity pub it's because your activity is being published that activity uh could be a like it could be a reblog on the block right is this if only also is like maybe this isn't a fair analogy but like with rss and like podcasts where essentially like yeah perfect analogy i think like this is the one thing i feel like i kind of understand is the perfect scenario aspect

of it where essentially people are posting on a social media platform and then you just get to pick how you want to interact with that so like i listen to podcasts on spotify if you use um i already forgot all of the like pocket casts pocket casts. Google Podcasts. Yeah, pocket casts. Like, pretty much that. It's like we're all looking at the same information, but we're looking at it in different ways to things that just fit us better. Which is why some of my questions might not have perfect answers. Like, if someone has a Mastodon account and logs in and sees my threads activity and follows my threads account does that follower get added to my

threads profile because right now that's not how podcasts work i'm not sure about that i don't know if there's going to be an answer right away yeah but like if i follow you in pocketcasts apple podcast has no idea um and then if some activity that i post on threads shows up on your Mastodon timeline and you engage with it, that shows up to people who don't have a Mastodon account. They're just on the threads app. And then they reply to you. Does that allow them to follow

or see your Mastodon activity in threads? I think it will once it's fully built out. Okay. Yeah. It's going to be like one giant social network in a way. So this kind of already exists with apps that are already federated. So for example, like Instagram, there's this app called Pixel Fed, where if you post a picture on Pixel Fed and I'm following that account on my Mastodon, the picture will just show up on my

Mastodon feed. Yeah. And then if I like it, you will see that like across the platforms. Yeah. So the activity pub protocol standardizes a bunch of different social actions so that you can still have like tailored apps that are like pixel fed, that are more Instagram like that are focused on Instagram. And if I go to pixel fed, I only really see photos, but if I'm on threads, I can follow that pixel fed account so i can just see your photos mixed with the other stuff i'm that's interesting so the reason to be on a different version of this giant social mesh would be to tailor different features or content to your liking in a way exactly in a way it's almost like when we had like falcon and like all the different twitter clients because it was just a different way to experience

Twitter. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because this way you can get a different user interface. You can get different features but you can also sort of follow different people's different styles of content through an RSS style. Yeah. Yeah.

It reminds me of how everyone's like wow Instagram today is just videos it's all reals remember when it was just pictures you could just you could jump on the one that's just like we only show the pictures right so instead of everyone having to because think about yeah this is a great example think about this way the amount of new apps that come out that are like we're going to be the new instagram we're focusing around just photos or even there's like ones that are coming out now that are like just film photography and i'm like how are you going to get a user base that is sustainable enough if you're being that niche but if you're federated suddenly it doesn't matter like you don't have to get people to sign up for a

new app you can just like follow you can just have an app that specifically only feeds you that content so it's cool i think it's a cool it all sounds really cool there's some points of this when we're explaining it that sounds so much like a like vc pitch of like what if you could do this thing on instagram but over here and then the things you like in this app you can do them here and like everything you like all in one yeah promise it'll work the difference is this is open source yeah i know that's what everyone's but that's what's funny about it is that like it feels like that i don't know yeah it's all interesting but have you guys ever heard of active worlds no it was like this weird uh social network doesn't really describe it it's like sort of similar to second life i was gonna say it sounds like second but it was sort of

intended to be somewhere in between like a web browser and a message board but in the style of a second life style game and it feels very much like this like the whole idea is that there would be all of these like community moderated servers or worlds and then on there people would like stick images on the wall online town square but yeah if you if i don't know what that is oh bro oh my god digital tone i was like i've never heard of that product no but so you go and you'd like click on it and it would open a web page or like a browser or you'd like post messages like that and it was sort of like all of these it was really cool and like all the worlds had like very different rules and flavors and like moderation policies and it feels sort of like a version of that where you don't need to full-on enter the matrix yeah it does i mean mastodon is kind of like that in a way yeah no

exactly yeah it's the same idea but yeah anyway i think it's like a it's it's just uh the more apps that you can get federated the more people are gonna like small smaller niche apps like instagram but only photos are going to be incentivized to make something that is federated because people can just tap into it directly instead of having to grow a user base that's going to be super freaking hard to it's really interesting that threads is federated but Instagram feels like it never would be yeah I don't think Instagram is ever going to be fascinating yeah they make too much money being TikTok yeah yeah true so well you know speaking of totally different worlds uh two very different developer conferences

invites went out like that that was pretty solid yeah i feel like yeah uh google six google and apple both announced uh their developer conference dates this summer, Google IO and Worldwide Developer Conference being Apple's. We expect very different things at each of these. But also not really. Do we? Well, we expect similar things in different styles. We expect AI from both of them. Well, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but Jaws tweeted it's going to be absolutely incredible. With both of those words capitalized.

With A in absolutely and I in incredible. Capital. Oh! He thinks we're 12. So, yeah, AI probably. We all got that. But I think, yeah, we all kind of been waiting for this AI thing from Apple for forever. And the invite is the Siri

colors. And like, we've been hearing all these murmurings about, you know, chat GPT and open AI, but also Gemini and Google. And like, what is Apple actually going to do with AI on the iPhone? Even lately I've seen, um, I've, I've had just random mentions of AI from Apple where they're like, Oh yeah, we've been an AI company the whole time. Like we've had just random mentions of AI from Apple where they're like, oh yeah, we've been an AI company the whole time. Like we've had the most advanced neural engine on our Apple Silicon chips for years now. And I'm like, yeah,

I guess you could just start saying that now. You're not wrong, but you haven't been saying it like that until just recently. So it's kind of interesting. I would argue they are wrong. You could silo in an argument where they're like technically right but also my argument is that an incredible amount of things that people are branding as ai now were just machine learning that has been

happening for a very long time and it's funny because apple had never apple never says ai right and i made a whole video never, Apple never says AI. Right. And I made a whole video about how Apple never says AI. And then just recently they started being like, oh yeah, we, oh yeah, that's us, AI, for sure. No, we said it. Yeah. We've been doing it.

I know we say machine learning and neural engine and all that stuff, but like, yeah, this is, are they just going to suddenly say AI a thousand times on stage this year at DubDub? I think they just wait a really long time to make sure that something is actually like a new category is actually sticking before they associate themselves with it every feature in the iphone pretty much it's like all of the new features have been out already and then they

just like waited till it was definitely popular polished the hell out of it and popped it out yeah popular or like offered real real utility to their customers because i think there are plenty of things that you could offer you could argue were way way early in other phones but didn't really offer utility and then it took extra years for people to figure out oh this is actually good for people yeah um and there's so many little examples i'm very very interested in what besides like better siri like a fully revamped, like transformer based Siri, which I really hope exists. They're going to add

because they're, I really don't think they're going to do like AI wallpapers and all of that kind of stuff. Right. There's lots of those little things that others have done first that aren't necessarily that useful,

like AI wallpapers. But then there are some things that I think are obvious wins like well they've already done the keyboard they've already done slightly better auto which by the way i feel like has made the keyboard worse and i actually haven't noticed anything different for me it feels like the auto the auto suggestions and autocorrect have just gotten way worse if i'm not typing a word that's like a commonly used like this morning i was trying to type the word atreides and my phone just like i mean was not that's not the phone's phone

it's from it's a dune thing okay i don't think any keyboard thing would naturally yeah get that well no no no no it's it's not like it was trying to like it would it's not like i would finish the word correctly and then it would do it like if because it does the predictive yeah letters coming next yeah so if it if it really struggles to know like it's almost the touch screen is useless especially on my little tiny mini phone yeah true true atreides it's that is not a weird i'm just saying that's just slightly above frittata for me. Oh, no. Just slightly above it. I just don't think I would know how to spell it. Yeah.

But also, like, Transformers are trained on the commonality of how often words are used around other words. It's in the most popular movie right now. Right now. Andrew. Help me out. I was going to make a joke. Who in here has seen Dune? I still haven't seen either of them.

No, I haven't seen it. No one besides Ellis has seen Dune in here. Oh, wow. Adam's seen Dune 1. Dune 1. Oh. Was Atreides in it? Atreides, yes.

But my argument is that they're fictional names and characters. Yeah. Places. Absolutely. They're not common. People are typing them into their iPhones. Yeah, but that's not how this is trained.'s not no real time it's trained on like an existing data set of common words uh really yeah they're like it's probably up to like 2022 or yeah and also other people so there is a

mechanism in the new ios 17 keyboard that learns based on the way that you type right but it doesn't learn based on the way that other iphone users so does this mean i'm a fake fan you just have to start typing that i'm clearly not typing well no that's a great point actually though because i feel like that's apple's whole problem thus far is that they don't have that giant data set of all their users is why they're probably going to use gemini that's the whole argument they don't like their whole thing is security and we don't scrape your data and we don't scrape other people's data and give it to other people and with large language models they're kind of boned yeah i want to point i want to paint this i want to paint this as clearly as possible

in order to have a really and we've i've phrased this many different ways but in order to have the smartest possible most useful ai like think of a think of a real human assistant who's going to help you out. In order for that person to be the most helpful for you, they need to know everything about you, right? If they're going to start scheduling your flights, they need to know, oh, do you like window seats? Do you usually fly out of this airport? Do you like United or Delta? They need to know everything about you. Do you usually fly out of this airport?

Do you like United or Delta? They need to know everything about you. And so if you're knowing everything about someone, you have a lot of data on them and minimal privacy. But Apple's whole stance and their whole policy is to keep as little data as possible, none if they can help it, and to know nothing about you and to keep everything private as much as possible,

which is great and very noble and super, it's a big reason why a lot of people like the iphone but now that means they by definition i think cannot build the most helpful assistant that knows everything about you yeah and so how does apple get around this like apple's google's out here knowing everything about you and giving you all the information you could possibly want before you even know yeah before you even know yeah before you even know you want that it's like i know you're about to wake up so i'm gonna start helping you out with the thing you're gonna eat for breakfast like it knows you super well yeah and so they're able to offer all this helpful stuff which people like do they partner do they compromise

on that that that policy that they have to let google in the door to collect or or to at least use the data they already have. Maybe they don't collect on the iPhone, but to use it, which is what I think they're going to do. Exactly. Google has collected so much data over time. And I think Apple is just going to be like,

we're going to use that. And is that data a one-to-one match of what they need? Or do iPhone users maybe use their phones slowly differently than the, all the other users they already have? I don't know if that's going to come up. It seems more focused around large language models i would guess yeah and like natural language processing so they'll probably use it for siri i don't really see them using it for a lot of other stuff which is why i'm actually very curious because if this whole wwc is

supposed to be focused around ai i imagine they're going to, like, for multiple of their products, say, we added some sort of AI to this. But what else besides Siri could they add AI to that would make, like, a large tangent? Reminders. I was going to say, the rumor did say, like, iOS 18, right? Features, so it was plural. So there are potentially many different things in there

that it could be added to, I guess. And when Joss says absolutely incredible, it assumes that that's going to be like the theme of the... Yeah. Yeah. So there'll probably be plenty of... I'm super interested in both of these happening and there being a connection.

Are they going to talk about each other during their conference? Like, Apple has to talk about Google. No. Really? You think they're just going to say Apple? Or do you think they just say Gemini? I don't think they're even going to say. You don't think they're going or do you think they just say gemini i don't think they're even gonna say you don't think they're gonna say gemini at all i would say that's probably part of the deal is that they don't have to mention

google at all it would be really impressive they never mentioned google if they've literally partnered this is gonna be a waveform bet no no this well before we get to it though did they mention when google became the default search in saf? Did they talk about that at all? That was so long ago. Was it ever not the default search? I think they immediately. I think it was pretty immediate. Yeah.

Interesting. And that was like back in 2008. Okay. Yeah. They're a very different company now. Almost not worth mentioning. When they, Apple announced RCS, was that in an event or just that they were? That was later?

That was later. In a press release. Press release. It was, I don't think it was even a press release. I think it just went out in. Yeah, they seeded it. They seeded it. They seeded a quote to a journal. Yeah. It wasn't even an impress release. I don't think it was even an impress release. I think it just went out. Yeah, they seeded it. They seeded a quote to a journal. Yeah, it wasn't even an impress release.

I think it will be really interesting. I know that these companies look like they copy each other's features a lot. So when I'm trying to predict what they're going to do, I'm literally looking at what's just happened with the past couple of Google events and even Samsung. Like circle to search, kind of an interesting feature, right? Something's on my screen. I want to just like quickly search that thing online

and bring you some results. That can be interesting. Or maybe iMessage, you start planning a trip in a group chat. Maybe this little assistant Clippy bot comes down and starts helping you plan the trip. It doesn't have to be Clippy because it's Apple, not Microsoft. But, you know, I'm looking at other parallel features parallel feature yeah just craig's head floats down it looks like you're trying to plan yeah that's that's my thought process for trying to figure out what

other than siri apple could be doing with ai yeah i mean considering they update pretty much every os for all of their devices hopefully we going to see something coming to like the watch and. iPad. HomePod. HomePod. Well, that was going to be my question because remember Google, they announced Gemini with like three different versions. I forget which one was supposed to be on the phone.

Pico or something. Nano. Nano. Thank you. Apple has watches. They have earbuds. Like there's so many other things. Computers. Yeah. What is it going to be? Like there's so many other things. Computers.

Yeah. What is it going to be? Like, is it just plugged into. I would say Gemini Nano gets put on the Apple watch. On the watch. See, I was going to say Nano gets put on the phone or something similar to it. Yeah. Probably.

But then what goes on the watch? There's multiple features coming to multiple devices. I just don't see it being a one to one fix to like other things other things yeah i don't know well there's also okay so there's the distinction between like local ai and cloud-based ai as well the local stuff is the best experience usually it's the fastest like the live translations if you just download the language model or whatever you can do live translations on the device that's usually awesome which and apple was pretty last wwdc they mentioned a lot of local learning like being incorporated to so many different things so is this like uh

an aspect of they're going to keep the local stuff themselves and i think so outsource the kind of i actually believe that the rumor when we talked about this i think two weeks ago maybe this happened the rumor was specifically that apple was outsourcing it to google for the cloud-based ai stuff i forget if it was that but i remember the article very much feeling like gemini wasn't taking over all of it yeah that it was features and that this is going to be kind of split i think it's mostly going to be for the cloud stuff okay yeah so yeah could be interesting and then of course google io uh which we make the bet first oh yeah sorry do we is it just do we think they mention google or gemini do we think that the word google is said

on stage or or gemini google or gemini or do we think like i don't think they say either you don't think either what do you think wow that's a tough one i think if we really think they're partnering and using... I don't think they actually will be partnering, so I'm going to go with no. You think that the rumor is false? I think, yeah. Really? I think they're going to try to do as much on device as possible,

and that's going to be the hill that they die on. And they're going to want to, over time, be able to bring more and more things on device, but they might just take a stance against going to the cloud for these slow experiences. At all. Because Siri is, I mean, Siri's bad. Yeah.

Like, that's, people, I mean, I don't know if they know how bad Siri is, but I think that that's more likely, that they just try to keep everything local and on device so that they don't send your information somewhere, and hopefully that doesn't get breached. Well, but you can incorporate Gemini into things where Gemini is pulling from all the other sources

it's learning from, but Apple doesn't have to put your stuff into it, right? Yeah, I don't think that Apple will use a local Gemini model. I think they'll only use Gemini for cloud-based AI that they need the cloud for. I think if they do use Gemini, then they've got to say it at least once.

I don't think they're going to say it at all. Okay, let's assume that they will use Gemini. Okay. I think that they will say the name. I'm going to say they're not going to say that. I'm going to say they're going to say Google and Gemini. I don't think they're going to say either. I'm saying it as a, I think it'll be funny if they do.

And I'm going to say screw it. Let's, I think they're going to do it. Okay. I like this bet. That's a good bet. Okay. That's a good bet. Okay.

Speaking of Google. Also, we're just going to, we're just going to skip Vision OS. That's a whole nother thing. It's like, we expect Vision Pro updates probably at WWDC. Yeah. But we don't know what they will be. I was actually thinking about that last week. It was like, it's kind of exciting that now we get these whole big updates for the vision pro as well yeah that's kind of cool like because usually they introduce

iphone features that we didn't even think of and we're like that makes a lot of sense that's really dope yeah and is that going to happen for vision pro or they they're probably just going to introduce the things that people have been complaining about i would have should be nice which would be nice my guess is at wwd, we're going to see a lot of, especially this first time around, it's only been out for a few months, it's going to be like a bunch of different programs that helps developers create inside of it better, where us three won't have any idea

what any of that really means. They'll definitely highlight how many apps have come out for it since launch and things like that, and some of the highlights and the best apps. And, oh, Personas are out of beta now, or they're version 1.1 or something, and they're better than last time. Stuff like that and some of the highlights and the best apps and oh personas are out of beta now or they're they're version 1.1 or something and they're better than last time stuff like that yeah i think it'll be a minor vision os thing you think so i think so i mean minor minor to us minor to the consumer yeah i'm sure developers it'll only have been out for four months by the time

wwdc happens so yeah it's fair but add that to the list of like 19 OSs that they've got to update. Yeah, exactly. TV OS, Vision OS, iOS, Mac OS, et cetera. But okay, Google I.O. Google. We've seen endless leaks of possible Pixel, what is it, 8a?

8a, yeah. And we, I think, expect that to finally be unveiled at least. And then... I still wish they would just drop it with the mainline phones. And be on the same number. Nothing's stopping them.

Nothing is stopping them. Just saying. They make a $350 phone and Google's is $500 now. Maybe they just want to overshadow their more expensive phones. Who would buy a $900 Pixel if the $350 Pixel came out the same day? We were also talking about how the AA is basically the eight.

Yeah. So I guess I have to say. Never mind. I get it. All right. Yeah. It's like a mid-cycle refresh in a way or like a mid-cycle like, hey, you can buy this slightly cut down one.

I guess we're expecting, though, updates on Gemini on the phone versus Assistant on the phone. Because at this very moment in time, it's not clear why people should be moving from one to the other. I do have a potential theory, and it might be too early for this, but I assume, we can probably assume that the eventual plan is to either deprecate Assistant

or deprecate Gemini and eventually merge them into one. Or actually, probably what's gonna happen is because right now, Gemini, the merge them into one or actually probably what's going to happen is because right now Gemini the official naming is like Google Gemini powered by Gemini Ultra 1.5 or something like that and I think they're doing that very intentionally so that they can like get recognition for the model so that later they can say a google assistant is now powered by gemini ultra 2.4 so it's still the model so i imagine and this is just a theory that maybe at this google io they'll announce they're working on merging them so that everything is just google assistant again i thought you were going to say the more google thing of kill both of them and remake a new one it's called google messenger it's called hangouts

i do think i do hope we see something though that's not this make the decision between assistant on your phone or gemini yeah that's absurd they they need to mix them they're eventually i assume going to mix them but i i just, I assume, going to mix them. But I just would like that to happen sooner rather than later. Yeah. That's honestly the biggest update I'm expecting. Yeah. Obviously, Android updates as well in general.

But yeah, very different style. Yeah. So similar question before, assuming Gemini is going to the iPhone, does google talk about apple no just google and how they're gonna be powering things on the iphone maybe which is also funny because it's earlier than wwdc oh so they couldn't they can't they can't they would know you don't think so i don't think apple would because it would yeah because apple hasn't announced anything ai related imagine sundar on stage like by the way we're gonna power whatever Apple's coming out with in the next month. They might say something like,

we've established some leading industry partners that are going to be exciting in the coming year. They'll be cryptic about that for sure. I do think it's harder, but they have announced things with Samsung before Samsung's announced things, right? At IO. I know it's different. I know, I know.

I'm just saying it's not that wild of an idea. Interesting, yeah. No, they'll be, I'm sure they'll announce some feature stuff that we don't see coming. I hope they do. I hope they say something about working with Apple. Here's the bet.

Before Apple. Here's a, I would love this bet. Here's another one. Who will say AI more on stage? Google. And why is it Google? Google. Because they will say it.

Google is taking what they did last year and they're amping it up. Wait, actually, here's the bet. Will Google say AI more or less times than last I.O.? Yeah, what's the over-under? Yeah, what is last I.O.? Really, really high. Oh, let me just find that out real quick, Andrew.

Oh, no. I'm waiting. Someone's got to do a supercut. Someone's got to get the supercut machine ready because we got to use that to count how many times they say it. It was 137 times. Yeah, I was going to say we could throw that into Descript. I said 150.

Dang. Wow, okay. Yeah, 137 over under 150. It's going to be hard to say it more. You remember that last presentation, right? They literally were saying it non-stop. It's like every sentence. I'm going under

because I think they'll say more different types of buzzwords like models and large language and stuff like that. They're going to say multimodal like eight times as many times as they did last time. They need to flex what's different about Gemini versus the other models. And unless GPT-5 comes out, which I'm assuming is going to be multimodal, unless that comes out before IO, they're going to flex the hell out of it.

So what's your over under? Over 137? 150. I'm under. over 137? 150. I'm under. I would say if Google wants to flex,

they should pretend to just move on from AI. They should be like, other companies are just now getting to AI. We're on to SAI, super advanced AI. Here we are. Super smart AI. AI type R. Do you think oh my god

do you think if Apple at dub dub mentions Google they'll say gift from Google do you think the audience will boo if they mention Google

that would be so funny if we're there we'll boo okay so yeah I'm going under because I do think

that eventually the terminology AI is going to just get tired and people are, it's going to be the same as machine learning, big data, internet of things. It's the same with all of these buzzwords. Like everyone uses them for a while so that the stock price goes up. And then eventually when it's the industry norm, people just start, stop talking. We're in the thick of it now. I feel like we're in the thick of it.

We're in the thick of it. i feel like we're in the thick we're in the thick of it but i also think last year was thicker uh i would argue this year's there's more going on i think it's more in the public knowledge at least than last year apple says it's so little that if this is the first year they say ai 100 times on stage everyone's ships lifted from that if you're in the AI boat. Which is why Google has the chance to separate themselves again and be like, we're beyond AI. We're even better. We're in the galaxy.

Speaking of galaxy. Speaking of galaxy. I'm going over. I agree with both of you. That goes next year. Continue segue. I'm going to say under. I'm going to take under. Okay, Ellis? I'm going to take the over. Really? Yes.

I think they're going to start on pace to be over because Sundar is going to open with a monologue about AI. If I run on stage and yell AI a bunch of times, does that count? Yes. If you make it. They will have to use it more than once a minute every minute of IO. Which they-

IO is two hours. Exactly, which is 120 minutes. But they easily, I mean, they did that last year. No, that's what I'm saying. So I'm taking the, dude, every 20 seconds for two hours, if they hit the- I think there's a chance they go back and watch some of the early minutes of last year's IO.

It is far greater than every two minutes. If they partner with that audio company iii does that count do we get three there i'm almost expecting some sort of meme about it at some point where they just go ai ai ai ai ai ai like just as like a whopper song whopper whopper chicken whopper yeah i i don't know if google would meme it, but I'm going under. All right. All right, now use that beautiful segue again. Speaking of.

Speaking of the Galaxy. No, I just want to mention some of those Galaxy AI features that were on the Galaxy S24 that we were like, wow, thanks to the new Snapdragon chip, they can do this circle to search really fast and they can do all this stuff.

Yeah, it's on the S23 now. Yeah, it's also not thanks to the Snapdragon chip because it's on the Pixel as well. Yeah. So. Knock. that whole exclusive thing yeah yeah every year it's always like only on the newest the newest snapdragon can we enable this and then two months later they're like we figured out a way to do it on the oldest wow great could have thought huge breakthrough totally not planned obsolescence. Okay, wait. So I have a question about that.

Do you think it's a hardware thing where they're physically holding back hardware like chips exclusively for like two months? Or is it like a software thing? No, it's completely software. It's to give you a reason to buy the new device.

But in theory then, if you were to buy the new device. But in theory then, if you were to get a new device that has that chip, could you just enable it yourself? But it's not even about the chip. That's the thing. It's always about the chip, but it's never about the chip. We have a new device here, and there's very little new.

So we're going to take some of these software features and lock them to the new device so that when this launches, it looks like a more impressive Delta. And then three or four weeks or maybe a month or two later, we go, all right, sales spike is over. All right. You guys can have it, too. This is actually something we could put on all of our devices. So it's just a software release.

It's a lie. Which, you know, to be fair, I should be. I'm grateful that they put it on the older devices they don't have to obviously they're taking the time to support older devices so i'm happy about that they're going to do it anyway because hardware on phones isn't giving you the big new feature that you want to upgrade your phone for software is so like they're going to lock it one way or another i guess we should be yeah maybe not happy but i'm glad that yeah be grateful you know what i mean though like they don't have to do it and they

will lock it to make you buy new phones the sales graph is like release three months later we're here and they're like all right all right you get out. Throw him a bone. Yeah. So, yeah. But the funny thing about that is they never actually said it was going to stay free. They said it was free until at least 2025. For what feature? For all the Galaxy AI features. No way. Yeah.

In the fine print, it says free until at least 2025. You think they're going to... I don't know. That's literally the reason I have not been using the AI features on my phone. Do you have to turn it on? No, they're just there. The way Adam does things is he doesn't use things that he doesn't want to later want to use if he switches devices. So when he's on

an iPhone, he doesn't use iMessage. Which I can't tell if that's really healthy or really unhealthy. I think it's healthy. I think it's kind of smart. I need cross-platform connectivity for everything. Can we iMessage? Yeah, but I turned it off eventually. I turn it's kind of smart. I need cross-platform connectivity for everything. Can we iMessage? Yeah, but I turned it off eventually. I turn it on every once in a while, see what it's like, dip my toe in, and then just turn it off again.

It's a bad. You don't want to dip your toe in. Dang, man. Yeah. I respect that. But also, you're missing out on a lot. Circle search is pretty sick. Yeah.

Yeah, but I don't want to pay for that. So I'm just not going to use it. I, yeah. Would to pay for that so i'm just not going to use it i yeah i would they charge for that so okay my my theory is that you're hooked man yeah i mean yeah my theory is that they are testing the waters to see how much people actually use these ai features and if it starts being a lot that means it's going to cost them a lot of inference costs to Google or OpenAI or whoever they're using as their backend because they have to pay on a per-use basis.

Per query. If it ends up costing a lot of money, they'll probably start charging. They have a huge user base. They have the option to start charging people. That's why they said free until at least 2025. They're like, we're going to wait and see, but this does cost a lot of money,

so let's figure it out. Would it be fair to say that we don't know how much something like this would cost, period? Every single person constantly pinging data centers and running transformer models. OpenAI has transparent costs for queries and stuff. For different types of but like yeah at at a like mass adoption scale like like could that have the potential to actually like cost

billions of dollars and not be sustainable at all correct no further questions that that's sort of that's sort of the trade-off you have to make is like you could train your own models but training your own models costs hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. So instead you just lease models from other people. So that's sort of the trade-off is like, if you don't have a lot of users, you might as well just lease

because it's not going to cost you that much, but the users you do have are going to be very happy. But if you hit a critical mass where you have so many people that leasing those models is costing you so much money, you might as well just put the money in now to train your own model.

But I meant like operating the models too, like operating the data centers. Oh yeah, no, that costs a crowdfunding money. That's what it looks like. For sure. More on that coming up in June.

Way May. AI stuff. Well, May, isn't it? May for I.O. Sorry, May for I.O. Oh, it's May. Yeah. And then I.O. is June, right? Okay. No, I.O. is I.O. I.O. is May for I.O. Oh, it's May. Yeah. And then I.O. is June, right?

Okay. No, I.O. is May. Sorry, I.O. is May. Dub Dub is June. And Zendaya is May. That's exactly it. And we should take a break before we... I was thinking it.

This goes completely off the rails. Let's do trivia. Trivia. I was thinking it. I'm glad you said it. Okay. So I have, I'm going to do,

we'll do the menu thing today. I have a relevant Apple interacts with third party companies question, or I have a fun classic YouTube question. Oh, YouTube. YouTube. Yes, please.

All right. Can we do the other one after as the second one? We'll see. We'll see how the rhythm of the night goes. So uploaded June 16th, please. All right. Can we do the other one after as the second one? We'll see how the rhythm of the night goes. So uploaded June 16th, 2009. I know the answer. This 4.4 billion view masterpiece is the oldest video on YouTube's all time top 30 list. What video is it?

Wait, oldest video on the top 30. On the top 30 all time most views this is the oldest video on that list uploaded june 16 2009 it currently has 4.4 billion views if you did multiple choice i guarantee i would get it right but because it's, there are too many possible options. But I'm going to try. Well, let me say this. This is the only video on the top 30 list uploaded in 2009. Yeah.

None of the, like me at the zoo didn't get this many views. No. That was my answer. That was my answer too. There's one. That was a couple hundred million. Shakira's Waka Waka was uploaded in 2010. Oh, I think I know what it is.

So it's not that one. And then... Great song, by the way. There's a 2011 video that was uploaded by T-Series. In 2011? In 2011. I didn't even know that video said over 4 billion. I remember when Gangnam Style was the first video to ever get 1 billion.

It was. Baby Shark has 14 billion. I was going to say say that and that's just one version of it planet earth planet earth doesn't have that many babies to watch that how many people we have like 8 billion people yeah total yeah the average they're all watching baby shark like twice yo that stat is actually crazy because if you think about it, there are a lot of babies who haven't seen Baby Shark, which means the average number of times

each baby who has seen Baby Shark has replayed it is probably insane. I will say that I bet you parents just cycle Baby Shark without watching it just as music on YouTube. It's kind of like... Do you remember the era before Spotify where the way that

people would listen to music was to just watch YouTube videos? Oh yeah. That's how they got billions. That's how they got repeat views. Yeah. For sure. People didn't really care about the music video. They just wanted to hear the song. When I got my first iPod Touch that came with the YouTube app and as soon as it clicked for me

I was like, it's over for the music industry. I'm never paying again. The YouTube app was as soon as it clicked for me I was like it's over for the music industry. I'm never paying again. The YouTube app was pretty OG. Even just Baby Shark on Spotify has 685 million plays. That's way less than I expected. But that's only the audio version and not including the like

20 different ways you can listen to it on YouTube. There's probably 8,000 remixes of it as well. Compared to 14 billion that's nothing. It is nothing. Despacito has 8 billion views which is kind of funny that like everyone has seen Despacito once. I've never seen the music video. I think See You Again

also has like 7 billion. I was just going to say how many times have you guys seen the Baby Shark video? Zero. Never watched it. You've never watched it? Never watched it. I've watched it at least six times. That's the thing. Zero or six. Someone played it when you brought it for your dog. I see this list all the time and I'm like,

I should watch it. Someone put it on when I brought Lane in the other day. For posterity, oh yeah. That's the first time I've ever started to watch it. Don't submit your child. No, she only listens to Creed. Thank God. Get you TV! Okay, we'll take to Creed. Thank God. Can you take me?

Okay, we'll take a break. We'll be back with the answers, of course, at the end. See you soon. BetMGM is an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League and has your back all season long. From puck drop to the final shot, you're always taken care of with a sportsbook born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM.

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to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Welcome back. I want to sue every company on the planet who publishes news on thursdays because it means

that we don't talk about it in our defense they publish this like thursday afternoon so even if we record it on thursdays we probably wouldn't miss it it was also funny because the bonus episode came out and there were people like two episodes now where you haven't talked about that we recorded that a month ago come on yeah so So we're finally going to talk about it. Okay. Yes. What we missed last week, the Department of Justice has formerly sued Apple Inc. over monopolization stuff. And there's a whole big old 88-page court filing that I read that was a little hard to read.

But also, it was kind of written in like a story way which was interesting like it literally starts off with this okay the way this this filing starts off is a story time in the land kind of far away kind of it it's retelling this uh amazon kindle ad about how this person was like using the kindle app on their iphone and then grabs an android phone and continues reading on the kindle app on their android phone and there's an email from an apple person which stop sending emails that are incriminating guys like just stop doing this who says look at this ad you can easily switch to reading your kindle on your on an android phone that's a bad thing that's a terrible thing and it's like why you know so they're clearly saying

we want to create these gates this is literally how the filing opens to kind of paint this this picture of how apple is trying to keep you in their ecosystem that's compelling yeah it's a good story it's like a music video no it kind of is yeah no it tells multiple stories like this started this way yeah yeah uh but it centers around apple building a dominant iphone ecosystem and intentionally stifling competitors ability to compete and also locking in users things we all know that apple just does uh it also complains about shapeshifting restrictions and rules with the app store and then also it makes all of these allegories to when they broke up microsoft and well they

didn't break up microsoft but when they sued microsoft way back. And they say that Apple only grew to the behemoth that they are today because of that lawsuit. Effectively, what was happening at the time is Microsoft was making QuickTime not work correctly on Windows computers, which had like 97% of the market at the time. And they had apparently actually intentionally written code into Windows computers that would make QuickTime break and just not work.

Which basically didn't... Yeah. I feel like I experienced this. You probably did. You didn't do Windows Media Player with the cool... No, I had that. Well, you had to, I guess. I definitely stared at that for a while.

But I think QuickTime was one of the early screen recorders. And it was not good. Yeah. On Windows. And iTunes is like founded in QuickTime. So the way that the Department of Justice painted this was only because we sued Microsoft and forced them to allow Apple to create applications on your platform that work correctly. that worked correctly was apple able to launch itunes and therefore launched the ipod which they say is the whole reason that apple like grew to the behemoth that they are today i'm sure that's a reason i would say the mac is probably a more um like valuable product for them but the ipod

obviously did sort of start a whole thing for them it allowed them to be a platform you know it definitely did and but could you argue that mac got more popular because they went after microsoft and hurt microsoft in some way which had such market share so like yeah so the department of justice created apple is what they're getting it yeah that's what they're saying yeah which is funny uh anyway there are five primary complaints in this document. And I figure that we go through all of them and just kind of discuss, like, if they're valid or not. Because there's a lot of controversial takes in this filing.

There's a lot of things that I would say, like, I kind of see what you're saying, but I feel like you're reaching in order to just break up apple you know yeah i would say like before we get into these yeah what would uh what would a success look like for the doj for suing apple because breaking up apple doesn't seem you're not gonna possible but like what do they actually want to accomplish here i think that i mean there's five different categories and i would assume that it's like winning on all five of these categories and And if they win, then they change Apple's behavior in some way. Yeah, basically changing their behavior, I think is what they're trying to do. Okay. Okay. So let's just go through the five categories in order.

Okay. The number one category that the Department of Justice says Apple is anti-competitive for is not allowing super apps, which i don't really understand this complaint very much um because we just don't really have super apps in the united states what is a super app so we don't but in china there's this app called wechat which is a super app and the argument is that apple does things like delay updates to weChat and things like that, that make it just more difficult to have that on the app store. So WeChat is on the app store, which is why I find it confusing. A super app, by the way, is like, it's an app that you can do a ton of different things. And so in China, yeah, so in China, there's a super, the super app is called WeChat. And you can pay your

taxes in WeChat, you can order a taxi and make a dentist appointment. And then when you get to your dentist's office, you sign in, check in with WeChat and pay with WeChat. Yeah. You pay with WeChat. It's like it's, it's everything. And so I think the, the department of justice is reasoning here is if you have a single app that allows you to do anything, and it's not about the hardware at all you could easily move to an android phone because as long as you have this app that has all these services on it that are interoperable depending on like and it doesn't matter what hardware you're using then it would be a lot easier for people to move to android phones and they're saying apple's not allowing that yes

which i don't really understand i think it's because even though the app is on the app store it's a cut down version of the full mobile app it doesn't have full functionality so like i'm looking at the reviews right now in the app store and one of the reviews is a three-star review and it says still very annoying to have to use the mobile version to get the full system to work at all the mobile version i'm assuming like mobile in browser version or something like that. All these different features that WeChat has built in, you get a sliced down

mobile version in Apple's app versus if you have an Android phone, you just get the full app and the full experience. Interesting. I would also guess that Apple has a lot of restrictions on what apps are allowed to do. Yeah, I think that's probably what it is. Something else that Apple has been lot of restrictions on what apps are allowed to do. Yeah, I think that's probably what it is. Yeah.

Something else that Apple has been specifically trying to block is having too many microservices within an app because then they have to review everything that the app can do. Their main complaint around not allowing game streaming services, which they now do, which is strange that the game streaming thing is a complaint because they now allow game streaming services, which they now do, which is strange that the game streaming thing is a complaint because they now allow game streaming services. Their main reason that they didn't allow game streaming services for a long period of time is because they were saying,

we'd have to review every single game that's on the service to make sure that it's not harmful to the user. And every time there's an update to any of the games on a game streaming service, we'd have to review every single update to every single title on a game streaming service. The Department of Justice says that the reason that they didn't allow that was that you could use any hardware. There's an email from an Apple person that says, here's a problem. If a user goes to a garage sale and pays five bucks for an Android phone and everything is cloud-based, they don't need high-end hardware and then they don't even need an iPhone.

That's an issue. We should deal with that. Yeah. This is coming back again to like, I'm sure with each one of these complaints, Apple has a public facing reason and a real reason. Right.

And I feel like we're gonna hear a lot in the public of what Apple will say is the reason, but we also know that they clearly do not want the walls of the garden to get any smaller. Yeah. Yeah. The juiciest part of this entire thing is going to be discovery where the Department of Justice gets to go through all of their emails and we get to find out the real reason. Yeah.

It's going to be amazing. Yeah. So what do you guys think about this? The super thing i think it's right in line so the the reason that apple will say is this super app thing it does too many things it takes too long to review and it is not something that we want in our store but the real reason that's also true is if someone uses all of the features of this super app to do everything and doesn't need anything else about the iphone then they can easily switch to another phone right so theoretically that's one of the reasons that they should change and allow super apps i get

it which is kind of like the fediverse just saying it is also kind of weird that apple's like well we have to look over all of these different things and like come on that's a lot of stuff it's like you own an insane amount of market share you can't afford plenty of resources like it's a little weird to be like come on we can't do all you can't expect us to do all of that we're just like the number one company no but you can't expect the game stores to even submit all of that like yeah like on the xbox cloud gaming thing it's like there's thousands of titles right like our how's that process even gonna work yeah in january of this year apple actually started allowing game streaming yeah so this complaint is kind of moot

now um and it's kind of weird that it's in the filing at all but you know they probably finished it before yeah the government doesn't work quickly yeah also Netflix exists does someone at Apple sit down and watch every movie well no because the movie is not a game how is that any different dude if you want to know what constitutes a game go watch the epic versus

Apple no no I get that yeah exactly it's still content yeah I think he's saying like but games can be like more harmful with like microtransactions and things that are controlling your phone and stuff for controls and stuff the gutters of steam to have some things that like barely yeah should never be seen by human eyes think about the games that are on the like google play store that actually are just malware you know that gets caught do you think there's a difference multiple times a month they're like oh this game was malware we had to take it down you know so okay so we sort of went

through the game streaming one as well as the super app one the third one is messaging and there was some stuff that i learned here that i didn't actually know um like apple doesn't allow third-party apps to send SMS messages, so the only way that you can send an SMS on an iPhone is through the Messages app. Okay, yeah, that's pretty straightforward. Which is pretty straightforward. And that's a super easy one to have

a public and a private message. Like, the public thing is SMS, super insecure. We don't want to just let any app go out sending SMS messages or receiving insecure messages. But obviously, if you allow third-party apps to send and receive SMS, then people won't use Apple's app to send and receive SMS. Think about getting two-factor authentication codes. Anytime you get one, it comes through the Messages app.

The more your Messages app shows up in front of your your face the more you're just going to start using it yeah what's their reasoning for not one for only having messages to do sms it's just like apple hasn't replied so they haven't replied okay i would guess that it's privacy but the irony the the intense irony is then like then use the open secure standard use rcs uh yeah which they did say they were going to use but we still don't know what the implementation of that's going to be all these things talks yeah clocks ticking that's this year it's supposed to happen yeah but that's such a long period of time it was like in hello was it in january that they mentioned no no it was last year last year and they said it would happen in 2024. It's going to be like December 26th. I hope that happens at WWDC.

Merry Christmas. Here's RCS. Just like they did with the CarPlay stuff in the Porsche. Oh, we forgot. We promised this. Okay, fine. Yeah. So that's a big thing.

And then obviously they talk about the green bubble, blue bubble fiasco, and just the insane amount of uh high percentage of teenagers who are planning to buy an iphone specifically for that reason it is so high in the united states we understand whatsapp exists please do not comment just use whatsapp but also like every time i read the stats i'm like damn yeah and it just gets higher and higher and higher it's crazy yeah yeah um okay one of the other things was that they do not allow the Apple Watch to work on Android phones and they make the functionality of other smartwatches way harder or way worse. So an example of this is that on the Apple Watch, you can respond to messages, you know,

with the keyboard or with your voice or all this stuff. You can interact with notifications and it can pull all that kind of stuff. If you use an iPhone and you have a smartwatch, you can't get a notification and pull up the app on your smartwatch. Yeah. You can't respond to a message on your smartwatch if it's connected to an iPhone. Correct, Adam? Wait, I think so. Say that again. If you have an iPhone or if you know, if you don't have an iPhone or sorry, if you have an iPhone and you have a non-apple smartwatch then it's like highly deprecated correct yes this is one of the only ones where i feel like i kind of get apple's perspective not even perspective i just feel like competitively they're like look we made this phone

and we made this watch and we made our phone work with our watch. If you're not one of those, tough. Like, obviously, it would be nice if you could force Apple to make their phone more compatible with other people's stuff. But it's like, who cares? Like, you don't have to actually. That's not actually necessary. I think the idea is that they have such dominant market share in the United States that they're abusing their market share to make everything worse, to keep people using their products. Which, again, is in their right to do, kind of. But also, I think the Department of Justice just cares about promoting competition.

justice just cares about promoting competition and without taking action to allow other people to use other devices the percentage of people on iphones and apple watch is just going to go up and up and up yeah this is this is one of those complaints i think that only works because of their dominance yes because you wouldn't even really care if there's another small smart watch and a small smartphone and they only work with each other fine whatever go in the corner and do your thing yeah i totally agree with that that part i think it i don't know if i or no i don't agree with apple saying like we built this phone we built this watch put them together because there are just other watches that fill specific niches better like garmin specifically is so good at so many things that it's been doing for so long and to just like take away some basic functionality of what makes it a smart watch then to there are plenty of people who have iphones

that probably want a garmin watch because of maybe they're like way better gps or ruggedness of it versus i know they did apple watch yeah but yeah like that feels really the phrasing is interesting because if you say take away it's almost like this was out there and they took it away. But they never had to enable it ever in the first place? They never had to enable it ever. That's what they're arguing. I get it, but I also agree with Andrew, though, because there's ways to differentiate your product based on a compelling feature that users want. 100%. The Apple Watch has Siri.

I miss that every day that I've been using a Garmin. It's actually useful on the Apple Watch. Just setting timers, doing random things. Awesome. So the fact that I have a Garmin and doesn't have Siri, that's what I get. I don't have an Apple Watch. But I can't turn off certain notifications from apps because I have a Garmin. Yeah, it would be dumb.

Yeah, there's a lot of dumb. I would say it would be a much stronger argument for the features of the apple watch if all smart watches could have the same access then it would be like all right we're literally just that's the whole point of this whole lawsuit but then we would literally just be buying the watch based on which one has the features we like and some people would pick the apple watch some people would pick the garmin some people would pick this and that or whatever but apple feels this extra need on top to be like well we don't have to make ours work with others so we just won't and now there's only one choice of an actually full featured smartwatch for the iphone right by the logic of apple made their thing that can only work with their product it's

like okay so all other smart watches now can't. No, they can all do stuff on their own. They just don't have the plugs, the hooks into the iPhone to take advantage of the features that come from being connected to an iPhone. But also there's basic features they can do. Yeah, it sounds like some pretty basic. Like Adam, explain the notifications thing. So like if I'm on Android and I have a Garmin watch,

and this actually happened a couple weeks ago because I walked into Andrew, I walked into the office and I went up to Andrew and I was like, Andrew, can you help me figure out this Garmin thing? Because I can't figure it out. And we pulled up our phones next to each other and I was on iOS. He was on Android. And I followed him step by step into settings to turn off certain app notifications. And on Android, it gives you a list of all the apps. I could turn off WhatsApp. I could keep on SMS text messaging. of all the apps.

I could turn off WhatsApp. I could keep on SMS text messaging. I could turn off Instagram. I could keep on threads. On iOS, it's all or nothing. I can only get notifications on my watch or I can't get notifications on my watch. So it's like little things like that where it's like just annoying.

Insane. My only question on that is, are we sure that's not Garmin making that decision? No, that's an iOS thing. Android allows it and iPhone doesn't't and on your apple watch you can choose individual notifications yes don't trust me yes dude i literally i would not use a car that's the thing i had an iphone that's the thing the complaint is not that it's like that they can't really do it it's that they're so big that it's the only viable option in the market, really. It's also just wild because like Apple is good enough

at giving itself differentiating features that like I just think will always work better because you're in the same ecosystem. Why take the extra step? Because I think it's because if you just do these little things that make it just like, ah, that's annoying. Ah, that's annoying. That's the whole headphones thing.

Yeah. It's like why AirPods are so dominant. It's not like AirPods are the best headphones ever, but there are like two or three magical features that work perfectly with the iPhone that are just the reason people buy it. Question, the W2 chip, right? The chip, yeah.

Is that made by Apple? Yeah. It's H2, I think. Is it H2 now? Wait, is it W2 right now? I what it has yeah yeah is that made by apple yeah but so that's like a i think is it h2 no way is it w2 i thought it was w2 and i think it started as w because it was the same chip from the watch but they changed it to h okay so we'll just call it the chip that connects them i think that's an example of actually they made that chip they made that good it's something specific that is something that just is a feature that is better but like jaybird's not gonna have that jaybird can still connect but rather than just like taking away an

easy way to connect from jaybird they're giving you something extra i think that's fine and that makes airpods great but like to be like hey your garmin watch can't differentiate notifications is like yeah there's a difference come on that's adding features't differentiate notifications is like, come on. Yeah, there's a difference between adding features on top that is like, this works, there's additional magic that happens with Apple products and services versus here's a basic feature that you just can't do if you're connected to something else.

Yeah, I guess headphones are more one-dimensional where it's like, all you really do is, does the audio go to the phone and back? Great. Does it have a mic? Does it pair? Great. But with a smartwatch, there's 15 or 20 features.

So it feels much more obvious when 12 of them are nuked. And the weird thing too is that they're, this is all happening to Apple customers already. You already have an iPhone and they're punishing you for not buying their other product. It's not like, oh, you have an iPhone? Well then sure, go buy a Garmin

because you're already an iPhone user. It's like, no, you bought a Garmin, now you're gonna pay because you didn't buy the Apple Watch. Yeah, and their other complaint is that the Apple Watch is pretty expensive and because it only works with the iPhone, if you buy an Apple Watch,

you're less incentivized to move to an Android phone because then you just have to throw your Apple Watch away. That's an interesting perspective because theoretically, you could switch to an Android phone and then get all of the features that you're talking about that you want from the watch, right?

You could get all the specific notifications. Back to the Garmin thing. Oh, the guy saying, yeah. Like you, okay, you have an iPhone and you see the Garmin. You want all the features that you get from Android.

So you theoretically can switch to Android and Garmin. Right. And I guess their theory to Android and Garmin. Right. And I guess their theory is the friction of that. You gotta buy another watch, though. No, you have the Garmin already. Oh. Well, I mean, okay, so you have an iPhone,

you bought the Garmin, the features don't work. You can switch to an Android phone on the spot, but that friction is enough that people don't do it, and instead, they don't get the Garmin, they buy the Apple Watch. And then the Apple Watch further locks you into the ecosystem because then you bought a $450 watch that only works with your iPhone.

So if you decide to switch to an Android phone, your watch is now useless. Yeah. And you have to buy, not only are you throwing away. Yeah. Not only are you throwing away the $400 that you spent, you now have to spend another $300 on a Garmin watch. But that's different. I'm okay with that because that is them differentiating their thing.

Like our watch only works with our phone. And much as it sucks i get it but taking away features yeah i mean i already bought the thing that's where i have the issue with it yeah yeah it is i don't know i still think the apple watch should work with android phones i get if it doesn't work as fluidly i will say like just it should have doesn't work because the pixel watch doesn't work with iphones so there's nobody yeah does the samsung because yeah does the galaxy watch work with iphones no it's no no i know the galaxy watch works on it works better with galaxy phone yeah sure and again i'm like which is slippery yeah that's true what are the things it works better with though is it's usually because it's just connected to, like, other Samsung apps with inside. Yeah, there's a couple. You probably won't have on your phone.

Yeah, like normal. I don't know. I used a Samsung watch on my Pixel for a year and it was totally fine. You can use the Galaxy Watch with the iPhone. I thought there was one, though. So you can use it with an iPhone, but you can't set it up with an iPhone. So you need to first pair it to an Android phone. Are you sure?

Set it up. Yeah, I'm on Reddit right now. Then unpair it. Then pair it with an iPhone. Good God. But in the case of the Pixel Watch not working at all with an iPhone, are we mad because Google should totally support the iPhone? Or are we like, yeah, it's a Google phone and a Google Watch? This is like the abusing monopoly power question, right?

Google is so behind that we don't really care. That said, I think we should care because this is how you build monopolies. But also though, who's restricting the use between them? Is it Google saying you can't use? Yeah, it's Google. Yeah, Google does not. Because you can build smartwatches that will at least connect and work with the iphone there just doesn't at all and the funny thing is google has just been trying to copy apple's ecosystem play for the last ever since every pixel came out

yeah but specifically now they're like let's build a watch and headphones and like a laptop like they're specifically trying to match the ecosystem that apple has and they're doing it in a very similar way of like the pixel watch only works on on android phones you know which google's have some has some monopoly claims as well on them so yeah they're not scotch free 100 um yeah okay now that we so the watch is a big one the watch is for sure a big one yeah big uh last thing last major complaint is that the access to the nfc chip on iphone oh yeah you can only use with like apple wallet and apple pay yeah and their complaint which technically true is that like if I was a bank, I could theoretically offer my own wallet app that maybe could compete with other banks. Because I could say, if you use our wallet app, then we give you special rewards. And then that incentivizes me to move over to Chase or move over to Bank of America or something like that. But because Apple controls the fire hose of Apple Pay,

and you can only use the NFC chip with Apple Pay on the iPhone, they don't allow anybody to do that. The other thing is that they also take a cut of every payment that is made through Apple Pay. That's not that much different from using a credit card though, right? Don't credit cards have...

They do, but theoretically as a consumer you have the option to give that money to Chase or Bank of America or whatever. Like on an Android phone you can use a different wallet app and make a payment and have someone else take a cut and I use

a different service and it'll go through NFCc and still work for sure like the nfc chip works with it's like a there's an api for the nfc chip that you can use as samsung or that you samsung pay could use that or google pay could use that so you have to sort of compete and i honestly think that that's a reason that google pay one of the many versions of google pay that we've had at this point. Google Wallet, Google Pay. Like two versions ago or one version ago had this weird reward system going on where like if you use Google Pay more, you would like build up rewards that you could use for like other things.

And I don't know. This one's a little weak. I don't think people are going to go out there and be like, yeah, instead of Apple Pay and Apple Wallet, I want to use Bank of America Wallet. Like people aren't going to do that. But still. But let them fight for it.

Let them fight for it. Give them the chance at making that. Ultimately, I think this whole claim is just about competition in the marketplace. Apple specifically makes it so that other people can't even compete with them to offer a better deal that would incentivize consumers to go over there.

And one note that I forgot about the super app thing was like the big reason why the Chinese Android market is so insane. And why there's like, two Android phones coming out per day in China is because everything is about WeChat. And so people don't really care about the iPhone over there, because they're just like, it's an app and I can use whatever hardware I want. And it just makes this incredibly vibrant hardware ecosystem. It is so different.

That's why Xiaomi and Oppo and like so many other OEMs over there are in such fierce competition. It's because they're trying to give you reasons to buy their phone over the other one. The reason a Naruto phone exists. Yeah, most people are just, I'm buying a phone to use WeChat.

So I don't really care what's on the phone, but if can convince me i'm open to listening so there are in fierce competition over there which is really exciting yeah meanwhile over here we're like no nfc yeah yeah yeah i just remember it was so funny how long other android phones had nfc and how like this niche community around nfc was built up with the little tags and you can be like every time i get in my car i like tap it and it goes into auto mode and navigates home and plays a song i like and it turns on the heater at home like all this stuff i loved and like the iphone never had nfc and when it finally got the nfc chip that whole community was like what can we do with it it's like oh no it's just there for apple pay god why yeah well now you could do things with it with like shortcuts and stuff but yeah a few more It's all somewhere in Apple's ecosystem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a few really amazing quotes from this. There was this quote that someone said, looking at it with hindsight, I think going forward, we need to set a stake in the ground for what features we think are good enough for the consumer. I would argue we're already doing more than what would have been good enough a few few years ago it would be really hard to regress our product features year over year so someone at apple is saying we've actually like we already have so much market dominance that we're we're actually giving you too many new features we should slow down and i actually wish we could

take away features trickle feed you these features year over year yeah but that would be really difficult so going forward we need to make sure that we don't innovate too quickly it's like holy crap just sending this stuff to each other in the group guys stop emailing this stuff buy your mom an iphone no that was that was in the document i know yeah yeah yeah yeah i think that that quote is gonna haunt tim cook for the rest of his career it's so perfectly encapsulates everything though it's the question the answer and the way he grins while he answers like all of it is so perfect it's five words that are gonna be on his gravestone it's so perfect for that yeah i feel bad for him

for that though because he was clearly just joking not really but the only reason it was a good joke is because that sliver of truth is like but actually it's the only way you can see these videos that your mom is sending you yeah yeah i would argue that when you're the ceo of a trillion dollar company you you lose your joking privileges like we have the right to take everything you say yeah you can make the joke but we're allowed to take it way too seriously. If you have a market cap with nine digits, we don't listen to your jokes anymore. We love you, Tim. Solid rule.

You're paying enough people to clap for you at the events anyways. You don't need us to. If you rewatch that clip, I think it was from Code 2023. It's really awkward because as soon as he says buy your mom an iphone everyone starts laughing like really awkwardly like everyone in the crowd is like uh and so we buy your mom an iphone it's because he like technically

addressed the elephant which is like you guys have this huge walled garden and i really would like to be able to do this without buying my mom an iphone so what are your thoughts and you're the ceo of apple so you can't say anything other than just get your mom an iphone like what do you think i'm gonna say so it was kind of funny in the truth of how revealing that and what precursed that statement was once someone saying like, hey, so it's like very difficult to message between different devices. Then it's really annoying. It's like him and his mom send blurry messages. Well, before he said the mom comment, he was just like, it's difficult to text.

And Tim Cook just says, we haven't heard from our users that they want better interoperability with Android phones. That phrasing is hilarious. Specifically said our users. Because of course, people that use iMessage are not the ones that are upset about this. So anyway, yeah, that's going to go to his grave. This is going to take multiple years in the court system. They're going to appeal it.

It's going to be a whole thing. It's why I think I should start making a video about it because it'll be evergreen. You should. Because the courts will take forever with this. And I also like, I think I should start making a video about it because it'll be evergreen. You should. Because the courts will take forever with this. And I also like, I think the analogy of, we've said the words walled garden so many times that I feel like it's worth like actually

painting the wall in color so you can see exactly what's happening. Yeah. Like this is what happens when you're in the walled garden and this is the wall you hit when you try to leave. You can't get customized notifications on anything else so you have another apple thing you can't get transparency mode on any of these others with one click so now you have apple's headphones too

now you have apple's laptop too now you have apple's messaging service too and that i think is worth a video in some way sort of trying to crystallize that. Even the Vision Pro, it only works with Apple ecosystem apps that are like not available on Android phones. I said it before I came out. I was like, when Apple makes a headset, it will be the one that works with the iPhone. And even though it doesn't connect to the iPhone, it's the one that has

iMessage on it. It's the one that has FaceTime on it. It's the one that has the App Store. It's just exactly. If you have an Android phone and you don't really use an Apple ID that much the headset's basically worthless yeah i mean you can still i use an android phone and i use an uh i can still use apps in the app store so like there's that if you don't want to use multi-platform apps you can jump in use vision pro apps in there yeah but you're not going to use facetime you're not going to use imessage you're not going to use probably their built-in email app or safari because you have bookmarks and chrome whatever so yeah those walls still exist um and i will say as sort of a

that whole thing about itunes growing uh because of windows it's kind of a valid point because at the time windows had 95 97 percent market share right so imagine apple's trying to grow this new product apple's i don't know garmin at the in this juncture they're trying to grow this new product but the platform that is completely dominating the market doesn't allow you to put out your application for people to actually use it if itunes couldn't have get gotten put on windows would itunes have like grown to the the point where it was you know if if it couldn't have been put on windows yeah because it couldn't at first yeah quickdine didn't really work with windows at first do you think apple like saw that lawsuit and understands

like the line they have to skirt to kind of not turn into that which now they pretty much have but like they're skirting it real close they're skirting it real close i like seeing all of this and seeing all the things if all five of these things change all i think of this is like apple one already like what all of these things happened to put people in this garden and they're in the garden already they're not coming out with all of these things happened to put people in this garden and they're in the garden already they're not coming out with all of these things change which i don't even think all of these things will change but like let's say every single thing happens for the doj here because it should happen yeah and some of the walls have holes in them now there's a couple holes 25 feet up yeah

you can't buy a ladder on the app store to get up there but um it's just like it feels like all these things happen to stifle competition and they stifled it enough to their winning in every aspect yeah i don't it's not going to change very much depending on the implementation of rcs uh next year i will very likely be switching to an android phone so which is why they will be doing everything in their power to implement it in a way that makes that less compelling right i think even that though is such a small user like it doesn't mean anything to them the amount of people that would think that is absolutely it does feel a little bit like too too late it's too i think your point is there are lots of people who already have the

macbook and the iphone and the apple watch and everything but there is a world where there are like 12 year olds right now who are about to get their first two devices and maybe they'll get the garmin watch instead i guess that's what i should say it's too late for probably maybe in like our lifetime or in like a couple generations whereas i'm sure when microsoft got hit with this people were like well they own 97 already it's too late but now we're at a point where it's like oh there is some competition yeah yeah so maybe they're hitting it now it's her first phone or when lane's when lane's kids get their phones they might have something different yeah i mean when you're when you're growing up as a kid and like you're a parent and you need to get a phone for your kid you don't want to get them a new like an iphone 15 pro and

they're nine years old why not please tim would say tim would say that 15 pro max but if your kid's nine years old and all their friends have iMessage and they're getting bullied for not having iMessage they're gonna go to you and be like but i need the iphone dad and like if that's not there dad's a nerd and it's gonna have some very funny answers you're gonna love this one but no no sorry that's sorry. That's again, like super anecdotal. If that barrier isn't there and it's less like those kids can get anything that their parents will give them. And also, you know, people tend to stick with brands for a long period of time throughout

their entire life. I remember when the LG G8 ThinQ came out and it was like, damn, throwback, at least three generations into people just not buying lg phones anymore really and i was in uber and the uber guy had it and i was like why did you pick this phone i literally asked him oh i had an aunt yeah yeah she and he was like i've just always used lg since like the flip phones like people just stick with brands yeah i have the same thing i have an aunt that was on um i swear i had this conversation at a wedding it was like i have a s6 what which samsung should i get yeah like that's the question they're asking yeah should i get the s20 s22 like and that's all they they're like i don't really

want to learn a new thing with the lg or the htc so like which one should i get yeah that's very valid right yeah so yeah buy your Lane Android phone. Should be the new quote. See, there will be phones there. Buy your kid an Android phone. Anyway, yeah, like we said, it's going to take probably a few years for this to actually get through the courts.

On the Verge cast, I was listening to their talk about this and they made a bet whether it be over under 2030 by the time this gets resolved. Which feels pretty relevant. I guess I got some time to work on this video then what gets resolved first this or like all car manufacturers switching to evs because the right 2030 is like when almost everyone's promised they'll stop that's also when it's supposed to be zero emissions from all tech companies right yeah

i'd say there's at least legislation in place that i bet you 2030 looks exactly like it does right now for cars for all the things we just talked about for everything we do another podcast episode we talk about the exact same things we make more bets yeah totally totally could happen well we've talked for a while about this so we should take another quick break but before we do we should do trivia this is the third time we're doing this although no one else will know that but us okay first or second question god i'm so thrown off now. One more time. I know. Why not?

Why not? Fourth time. Fourth time's a charm. When was the first Google I.O.? When was the first dub dub? That's the question. For two points. One point for two right answers.

We'll see. We'll see. All right, we've got to brainstorm some of these dates. We'll think about them. We'll think about them. of these dates, we'll think that offer big value for low prices. Take it from us. We've been here since last year's sale.

Hey, get away from my fries. Oh, yeah. Book with your local travel advisor or at. All right. Welcome back. We have one more quick story just because this is a long episode, but we wanted to get to it and then we'll do trivia again um did you see the leaked email from elon to tesla about how they want to enable full self-driving on all vehicles leaving the factory i didn't i saw this headline but i didn't actually look at into what's what what is happening sure so

elon uh sent out an email that says going going forward, it is mandatory in North America to install and activate FSD version 12.3.1 and take customers on a short test ride before handing over the car. Almost no one actually realizes how well supervised FSD actually works. I know this will slow down the delivery process, but it is nonetheless a hard requirement. so it seems like from the factory now all of the cars will have it enabled and i guess they want people to all go on test drives to physically see how fsd works rather than just people spending however like fifteen thousand dollars now but whatever the price has been fluctuating over the last 10 years so you take delivery so so what happens is if you bought full self-driving, you will accept delivery, and then you'll get in the car, and they'll give you a quick demo of it, and then you'll leave and you know how to use it. If you didn't buy it, you will accept delivery.

They will give you a test ride in your car, which has it enabled, and then once the test ride's over, it gets turned off, and they go, make sure you unlock that. I just realized you need $1 thousand dollars yeah and i guess that's a pretty brute force way of going our conversion rate isn't high enough we need more people to buy fsd yeah yeah i feel like it's along the lines of like we've converted the the like super fans of tesla who really want fsd but now we're like you know we're so we're mainstream enough now that enough people are buying it that aren't really tesla like online tesla people so let's give them a look at what

this is because they're not reading articles or watching twitter right i just feel like the only people this is going to work on is the people that buy the top trim model s it does fifteen thousand dollars on top of what you're paying is just insane. Is that what it costs for every car? Most people going into like a car delivery are like, I just want this over with. I can't believe I'm spending this much money. And then for them to be like,

you like that? You want to toss us another $15,000? Well, I also think you can buy a subscription, right? Yeah, you can do the $200 a month subscription. Is it? That might be what people can do. True, that's a good point. That that might be what true that's a good point that also that makes way more sense it's a good point it's also so much money you dollars a month

yeah maybe you'll be that blown away so enhanced autopilot is six thousand dollars fsb is 12 000 what is enhanced autopilot um auto lane change and auto park and smart summon which is navigate on autopilot so what's full self-driving fsd adds automatic lane changing positioning on the highway and overtaking slow cars and i would not feel comfortable doing that that's all its own conversation in itself yeah i mean it's not full autopilot. Autopilot is a whole nother debate, but I think just having FSD, these acronyms are so annoying. I know. FSD is called full self-driving, but it's not full self-driving.

It's one step above the cruise control that is adaptive speed cruise control. So like right now, this is funny, the Cybertruck, which no matter what you paid for, it doesn't have autopilot or FSD. It just has adaptive cruise control. And the button that's sitting there in the app, which is called autopilot, just cruise control on the adaptive cruise control on the Cybertruck. And it's not, I mean, it's fine. It's basically, you still steer everything, but it's keeping the distance with the car

in front of you. And that's all that's happening. It doesn't even keep you in the lane. It doesn't even keep you in the lane.'t even keep you in the what's oh my model three does that right my force or freight right so when you add autopilot or you add fsd you get to the point where okay it'll hold you in the lane you can switch lanes and it also adds like the summon feature and auto park and stuff like that but at least now you can like take your hands off the wheel and it will glide you around the highway.

And that's, that's more relaxing. That's what people I think are generally impressed by and happy to pay for. But then the next highest level of like full on autopilot, which is this can navigate around streets for you and like stop at intersections and go around roundabouts and all this other stuff. That is a whole separate debate. and go around roundabouts and all this other stuff. That is a whole separate debate and only the highest end like buyers

are even willing to pay for something like that. Totally agreed. But yeah, I guess I'm super curious what the actual numbers are. Like how many people actually do buy autopilot versus apparently not enough. Sounds like not enough. Where the trend is going down, I would guess for sure.

Because yeah, I think like it's tesla tesla is the most mainstream electric vehicle at this point to the point where it's battling against gasoline powered cars oh my god i got it backwards sorry autopilot is the first level and fsd is the second level okay that's it backwards yeah fun naming thanks guys it's very fun there's autopilot and then there's also enhanced autopilot, right? Yeah. Correct. No, it's just enhanced autopilot.

Yeah, I think so. Which includes navigate on autopilot. And that's not the free one? So here it is. Autopilot is traffic-aware cruise control and auto-steer in one package. That's basic autopilot? That's the free one. Autopilot, no other adjectives.

It keeps you in the lane, and it keeps you between cars. Precisely. Sorry, hands have to be on the wheel? Yeah, because you still have to steer. You still have to steer. It has auto-steer. It just can't change lanes. For example, I have paid for nothing, and my car auto-steers for me.

David gets on the tunnel. He hits the thing and he hands free. Yeah. For free? Yeah. So like, why would you? Okay.

Okay. This is my question. I got you. I got you. I also want to clarify real quick. I said mine has, I have to put my hand on the wheel every once in a while, but I do have lane keep. Okay. You do.

Okay. Yeah. I keep my hand on the wheel. I just don't have to like pay any attention. I don't have to do this, you know? don't have to do this you know okay just to recap autopilot it is free it is traffic aware cruise control so it'll match the speed of traffic and it will auto steer to keep you in your marked lane that is free good enhanced autopilot will get you on and off uh excuse me, it'll take you on and off ramps on freeways.

It will do auto lane change, which normal autopilot does not have. It includes auto park, summon, and smart summon. It's a lot of features. As well. But it's also $6,000. That is enhanced autopilot.

Okay. If your car, and we can pause there, if your car already will hold its lane on the highway and turn on highway lanes are people going to want to spend the six thousand dollars for auto lane change and getting off the exit ramp does it stop at the end of the exit ramp yeah it turns off at the end of the exit ramp wait so say that statement again if your car

already does what your car does which is All it does is stay in the lane. On the highway. And follow speeds. Great. Cool. $6,000 more for enhanced autopilot will get you auto lane change. And it will take the exit ramp to the end of the exit ramp. And it will park.

And it can do auto park or summon. I would argue summon is a party trick that no one uses yeah but auto park debatably useful i mean just get good six thousand dollars at parking yeah that's kind of a tough sell i gotta say it's not a lot of even tougher sell is the fifteen thousand dollar one okay which so what is the fifteen thousand dollars full self-driving which is not full self- $15,000? Full self-driving. Which is not full self-driving, to be clear. No, full self-driving is what we refer to

as a level two autonomous vehicle system. Which is not very high. Which is not very high. There are five levels. It's a whole debate. I think there are actually six levels now. Oh. Which is why it's a whole debate.

Okay. Yes. Okay, yeah. Well, there's five levels, but it starts at level zero. So there's six levels. So it's a whole debate okay yes okay yeah well there's five levels but it starts at level zero so there's six levels uh i get now i think five yeah but zero is is meat meat driving is nothing is nothing oh then that's there's five levels yeah so there is autonomous driving yes okay hold on but they're developers so they have to start at zero because they're cool yeah that's probably it i see all right i'm just gonna is the human yeah yeah so i'm just gonna read directly from Tesla's website, just so we get straight from the cat's mouth.

Your vehicle will be able to drive itself almost anywhere with minimal driver intervention and will continuously improve. In addition to the functionality and features of autopilot and enhanced autopilot, FSD capability includes auto steer on streets there is no description of what that means i would assume that means you get the auto steer feature from autopilot but on in non freeway but again it was okay good then traffic and stop sign control colon identifies stop signs and traffic lights and automatically slows your vehicle to a stop on approach with your active supervision. The last one doesn't? It doesn't. Because basically everything before is only the biggest jump here.

We're going is to regular highway to street getting off highways. Got it. So and then there's just a big long paragraph about full self-driving requires active driver supervision and does not make the vehicle autonomous, which is hilarious. That's so funny. They're just like, it's basically autonomous. Disclaimer, it's not autonomous. All caps. Which full self-driving, small text, it's not autonomous.

Which also, it can still be impressive that they're this close to doing that while still also just not being the thing that they say it is. It's very confusing. I do want to dump on this so bad, but also what else could you call it? What else could you call it? Level two. I mean, full self-driving pretty much means it fully does everything. It's just branding.

It could be enhanced assisted driving. Would a regular person get that? If you get lane assist assist but then this one is lane assist plus what about like almost or ultra as ellis said or almost autonomous driving nearly like theoretically you don't have to do any input the car will drive you from point a to point b but but but it needs but yeah you it can't do it without you there ready to take over at a moment's notice. It can't say that they can do it. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, like I did my demo of it where it took me, you know, 15 minute drive to get here and I did not at any point give the car input. Actually, that's a lie. Two or three times I interrupted it. But theoretically, if it works correctly, you don't have to give it any input, theoretically.

And it doesn't need you to take over at any point. Right. It would be full. Would be full self-driving. The word full is carrying a lot of weight interesting full yeah full it means i've it fully does everything that i would normally do so this is just self-driving it's also worth noting that level five is called full automation so it is like a little do you know what this reminds me of it reminds me of this is such a weird analogy but there i was showing you that commercial for a diaper that says um it's like andrew and dad i know

but it's guaranteed to prevent up to a hundred percent of blowouts the full self-driving is good 100 up to 100 of your prevents up it's the same language it's it's full blowout protection which is up to 100 which is the same as all of the um all of the cleaning materials that it say kills up to 99 of bacteria yeah because they can't say it kills everything in case it misses i mean or internet speeds up to 900 i just got my test back mom. I got up to an A+. I wish I knew that when I was in school. Oh my god.

My mom would have kicked me out of the house. I got up to an A+. It's kind of a tough sell but if you're gonna get people to buy it, I guess theoretically that's the best way to buy it is to be like this is the mandatory acceptance process of here's your car get in we're going for a ride. all right insane it's a lot it's crazy it's $50,000 i do think though like being able to get a quick test of it sounds pretty awesome or like if you actually

were thinking of it knowing that you can get the test before committing to the $15,000 or the $300 maybe that is lowers the number of people who commit before accepting delivery. Oh shoot. That's kind of funny. That would be funny if it backfired. Yeah. That's not even what I was talking about. I was just, cause you're saying like, okay, you want people to commit and how fast can you get them to commit right now? There is no demo. So if you don't buy it, the only way to try it is if you commit to it for at least a month i guess so if you don't commit you will get a demo anyway i think that means less people will commit initially yeah true if they know they're going to get a demo the old way they used to do it is

you're buying your car it's five thousand dollars you should commit right now because it's going to go up in price. And they made true on that statement. It has gone up in price. It has. Yeah, by a lot. Well, fun. Fun, fun, fun. Fun and I'm sure everyone will enjoy that conversation. And no one will think differently about anything we said there.

I definitely said FSD or autopilot wrong many times at some point. Heaven forbid. FSD, DOJ, AI. AI. T-R-I-V-I-A. W-W-D-C-I-O. fun test st doj ai ai trivia wwdc oh i had what you that was a perfect segue and everyone missed did you say trivia what'd you say spelled trivia trivia for all the babies out there i'm sorry that's pretty good i know you won't understand trivia okay quick update on the score. Marquez with four. Andrew with one, two. Kyrie with three.

Three. Nice. David with two. Okay. First question. Uploaded June 16th, 2009. This 4.4 billion view masterpiece is the oldest video on YouTube's all-time top 30 list. What video is it?

I'm actually pretty good. I just want you to know what I thought in my head for a second there. I went, oh my God, Kony 2012. And then I was like, wait, no, that's 2012. Yes, I was, wait. Is that video on the list? No, I think it was 2011 when it came out. It was definitely 2012.

Oh, when it came out? Wasn't it like a 2011 campaign for 2012? I don't know what it was 2011 when it came out. It was definitely 2012. Oh, when it came out? Wasn't it like a 2011 campaign for 2012? I don't know what it was. It's still wrong. It's still wrong. I'm just not actually putting anything down. Don't write Coney 2012. That is not on the top 30.

Yeah, that didn't have a long tail. No. I kind of feel confident about this one. All right, what do we got? I just wrote this anyways. All right. Oh do we got? I just wrote this anyways. All right. Oh. Hmm.

Okay. I know. So I wrote Gangnam Style, which I know is wrong, but it was the first to hit a billion. So I thought maybe it tracked for a while. Definitely first. I think it also came out in like 2012 or 2011. But I know it came out while I was in high school and technically I was in high school in 2009 and or 2011. Yeah. But I know it came out while I was in high school and technically I was in high school in 2009 and in 2011.

So unfortunately. Up to 2011. Up to 2011. Wait, you were in high school in 2009? Yeah. Me too. I was in ninth grade. Oh, okay.

That makes sense. I graduated. I wasn't. I was done. I was in college. That's correct. Thanks for making it feel old yet i know i'm wrong but i wrote me at the zoo just in case it was that and i would feel done well

they said it's not right i i never said it was baby by justin bieber that is a really good guess but unfortunately the correct answer i guess that did come out in 2009 right baby yeah it was very quickly the most disliked video in youtube history i do remember really why it's justin bieber in 2009 people disliked him in 2009 did you ever play that was like the end of his like super popular ass point he was too mainstream at that point oh like people were annoyed by how mainstream it was. It was just like a meme. Damn, what is it? The answer is Axl F by Crazy Frog. Crazy Frog? No way.

That has 4.4. 4.4 Billy. No, it's Crazy Frog by Axl F. No. Yes. No way. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no crazy frog is the artist and axl f because it's a cover of axl f which is the theme song of beverly

hills cop wait really boy oh wow crazy frog had an album though okay crazy frog had a lot of that's crazy does anyone crazy frog really peaked i felt like when i was in middle school i thought crazy frog was like super popular pre YouTube it was I remember like those two kids dancing on like in their basement it's a crazy frog and where'd you watch funny faces I'm pretty sure okay we love crazy culture used to be

weird bro culture with I like how when I search Crazy Frog, the lyrics come up on Google. Ring-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling. Bam, bam. It says bam, bam. Oh, and then da-da's later. If you've made it this far in the episode, I am so sorry. Da-da.

We're on the back half of it. That's a good Crazy Frog. If you get this far in the episode, please comment your favorite crazy frog lyrics i would love to see that in the comments okay i'm gonna pin that read this durandrama no that's in the middle scatting in the beginning oh no yeah uh no that's in the middle. That means scatting in the beginning. Oh, no. Ba-a-rom-ba-ba-bom.

Ba-ba-room-ba. Wow. We used to have class. YouTube auto-captioned that as well, just so you know. This is my Roman Empire. It is. I just think about Crazy Frog all the time. You're not alone.

Yeah. Okay, so. Okay, question number two, finally. Wow. When was the first Google I.O.? When was the first dub dub? We're trying out a new system for these year ones because they're fun. Okay.

What we're going to do is if you're within five years, or excuse me, if you're five years from the date, so a 10 year span, you get one point. If you're three years on either side, so six year span, you get one point. If you're three years on either side, so six-year span, you get two points. And if you're one year on either side, so a three-year span, you get three points. There's too many.

And if you nail it... Is there nothing for me to nail it? No. I blacked it out. Oh, no. That's kind of a gap in the system. I like the one year on either side. That's what PodQuiz does for yearly things.

That felt so... And giving someone five points just felt like too much that's a lot yeah so it is too much i'm trying to strategically think around my windows here we have a five-year window and a what you can potentially get up to three points how by getting by getting a year. Okay. This seems like a good point to point out that the Crazy Frog Twitter account tweets in the character. Which is, like, pretty funny. That's amazing. That's so good.

I'm changing it. Okay. All right. Flip them and read. What do you got? For Google I.O., I put 2010. 2010 gives you two points. So you're close, but not completely correct. For WWDC, I put 2008.

You put 2008. That gives you oof. That gives you. Yeah, that's just wrong. You get nothing. Sorry sorry david how wrong very wrong i can't i can't give you a more accurate answer until i hear the rest of them okay all right i also put 2010 for io okay so you get two points and i want a higher date for wwdz 2014 no very wrong very i wasn't sure if it was called something different before. It was. I thought that was a trivia question.

Wait, but it's the same event, so I figured... But it wasn't called WWDC. I was just going off of the first developer conference. The first developer conference was also way before that, so you got that wrong either way. Yeah, no one's wrong either way. Marques, what do you have?

I'm wrong. I got 2009 for DubD way. Yeah, no one's wrong either way. Yeah. Marques, what do you have? I'm wrong. I got 2009 for DubDub. No, for I. Oh, yeah. And 2006 for IO. Also two points for IO. Well, now we have to guess where it is. Aw, aw.

And DubDub, you just got completely wrong. Yes. No one got points for DubDub. I want the buzzer to be in the Crazy Frog cadence now. Meh, meh. Meh, meh, meh, meh. Have we been quoting Crazy Frog the whole time? I want the buzzer to be in the crazy frog cadence now. Have we been quoting crazy frogs the whole time? Always have been. So the answer, the first DubDub Worldwide Developers Conference was May 7th to May 11th of 1990.

Whoa. DubDub? The first DubDub? The first DubDub. Before that, in 87, it was called the apple's developer conference or devcon and then in 86 it was apple world conference before that was apple two forever and before that apple independent software developers conference which was a trivia question i believe can i just note how they switched to removing the name apple altogether to just say we are at the developer conference

we are the world worldwide developer it's not even apple worldwide developer conference it's just we're the developer that's why they're getting sued mr worldwide and that's six years away from their or six years after their developer conference literally being called apple 2 forever apple 2 forever the sequel i wish that's epic i don't think we have enough time for uh telling us safari oh io oh it's 2008 okay oh i was two years away me too did you also write also write 2010? 2006. He was two in the other way. Yeah. I don't think we have time for the Safari question. Safari the browser?

Yeah. Yeah, we do. You want to do it? Third question? We're already two hours in. Let's go. Let's go. Heck yeah, boys.

All right. Apple released Safari with OS X 10.3 Panther. But before that, what third-party browser was included on all Macs starting in 1998 and ending in 2003? Third-party browser? Third-party browser included in Macintosh

starting in 1998 that was not included before that and ending in 2003 with the introduction of Safari. I'm bad at these history ones. I don't know. Are you wearing an IO shirt? Yes.

That's cool. I like it. Thanks. Do you want it? Maybe a little bit. I don't think this is... Before we do the answer, real quick, when we got that shirt, I was so excited for it.

That first day I wore it coming back, I spilled spaghetti sauce on it and got dirty. And I just had to get rid of it. It is a cool shirt. I like it a lot. Are those sparkle emojis? Yes, they are. AI.

Hey. Not yet. Flip them and read. Give it five years. Okay, I... Wow. We all wrote Netscape. We're all wrong.

Is it the worldwide... it the no it's not the worldwide web browser that tim berners-lee made it is and are you ready for this internet explorer i almost wrote that that's crazy i wrote that last and then crossed it out because i'm an idiot i believe uh they shipped with Netscape before Internet Explorer. That hurts even more. Another fun antitrust quote. Go on. Go off. Is that there's a quote from Microsoft where they say we need to take the oxygen out

of netscape's uh lungs jesus that's that's like a mob threat microsoft said that yeah dude and that's really funny because those are the 90s microsoft executives are some nerds no they were a bunch of like yeah like picture Bill Gates with a huge glass is like, take the air. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Take it out of their lungs. That scares me more than an actual mob boss, to be honest.

Yeah. Well, hey, this has been quite an adventure of a waveform episode. This is what happens when we come back to our regular scheduled programming. We just go off the rails and maybe we should bring it back on the rails next week, but Hey, it's fun while we're at it.

So root for more lawsuits, I guess. Uh, thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Thanks for subscribing. And I can't wait to see your, uh,

crazy frog quotes in the comment section below. Please. Thanks. And catch you guys in the next one. Peace. Bye. Bye. We have

performance produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Robin. We're partnered with the Vox Media Podcast Network and our intro-outro music

was The Crazy Frog or Vein Silk. I think we're good. Galaxy AI, dub dub, IO, FSD. We've got all kinds of acronyms.

Actually, every single story has an acronym. Isn't that crazy? What's the threads one? AI, dub dub, IO, FSD,

and the Fediverse. You could have wrote DOJ. DOJ. Or actually US. US. DOJ versus Apple. W3C. Yeah, true.

Well, that's... What? For the Threads one. Yeah, for the Threads one. Oh. A little bit.