Waveform: The MKBHD Podcast - Meta vs Snap’s AR Vision for the Future!

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

There's a lot to get into this week and no Marques to help us through it (kind of)! He's too busy dominating at Nationals so Andrew and David talk us through everything from the new Snapdragon chip to the new hearing aid feature on the AirPods Pro 2. After that, Ellis joins them to discuss the pros and cons of the new Snap spectacles and the Meta Orion AR glasses. Before we wrap it all up with trivia, Marques had a quick chat with Boz from Meta about the tech inside the Orion glasses. Enjoy! Links: Apple's new accessories: https://bit.ly/4fhK4TJ Samsung Tri-Fold rumor: https://bit.ly/48kkuLC Boox Palma 2: https://bit.ly/3UoAg2e Snapdragon X Elite: https://bit.ly/4eVfcsF Music provided by Epidemic Sound  Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Socials: Waveform: https://twitter.com/WVFRM Waveform: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David Imel: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin TikTok:  https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's called Hinge. Hey, yo. I like that. What is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm David. And I'm Andrew. And Marques is out today because he's doing some more frisbee things because he has to be a professional, unfortunately.

Hopefully he's doing pretty good. They usually go into this tournament as the favorite. They are not. I was just going to say, wait. Is there any more backstory to this? Because I don't know. You obviously are more versed in the lore of ultimate could you really quickly give us a rundown as to what is happening what's special about this one club national so this is just the tournament within the u.s and it's not the professional league they play in a

club yeah in the club in the club we all fam um god i feel like such a boomer saying that out loud um yeah like this is kind of like what ultimate in the u.s has been for a while because there wasn't a pro league or anything you play on these like localized teams and then you play through like sectionals regionals nationals so you play locally and branch out till it's the top in the country this is that one i know he's already played worlds this year which is different and he's played pro ultimate is the most confusing thing ever ultimate players are the people keeping the support back because they can't make up their mind yeah doing anything so yeah hopefully he does well this well they may not be the favorite but they are my favorite today's episode is episode 256 which

means if every episode of waveform was a unique value it could be stored in a single byte wait wait that was fire that's right thank you anyway we got a lot of interesting stuff to talk about today um we got the qualcomm snapdragon summit that has just happened out in hawaii so we're going to be talking about the new chipset out there. The AirPods hearing test actually went live a few days ago. So we got a chance to try that out. And also, we have had the opportunity to try both the Snapchat Spectacles, which audio listeners Andrew is looking at right now. And then Andrew andis had the opportunity to

try the meta orion glasses we're gonna have a little section where we kind of talk about both what was better about each one and we'll pit them against each other yeah and then at the end marquez will be here for a small period of time just not really here uh he did an interview with someone at meta and so we're gonna play that at the very end. But first... Huge news. Huge news. Take it away. Magic Mouse 2. Oh my god! There's rumors of a Magic Mouse 2,

Magic Trackpad 2, and New Magic Keyboard. And, spoiler alert, it seems like they're all exactly the same but with USB-C instead. Don't do this to me, Apple. This is the hardest thing. Wait wait there's nothing wrong with them oh is that michael okay what was that beyond the click beyond the click the port the port on the bottom oh cry me a river

oh it's all right oh my god cry me a river bro my i have to stop using my computer for five minutes every nine weeks is the magic mouse charging on the bottom actually just a pomodoro uh timer dude just every three months you have to do it instead you don't complain when your ferrari's in the shop every four weeks guys yeah. Yeah, relatable. Okay. That's all we have for that. Okay. Wait, you're not going to push back on me calling the Magic Mouse the Ferrari of mice, really? You're just going to let that hang? I mean, they're both nice-looking drivers.

They both are aerodynamic. That's true. We can move on. Wait, but what's new with the trackpad? I think all of them are just USB-C, which we all kind of thought was going to be a while ago or marquez thought was going to be a while ago all of us told him of course they're still going to keep it lightning but really looks like we're finally usbc well i mean hey every time my magic keyboard dies and yes i'm using a magic keyboard and no i will not apologize for it

uh i have to ask adam for a usbc to lightning connector and it is always a bad time so if they're gonna do that i guess it's beneficial well and if it needs to be said if it needs to be said i hope the new magic keyboard uses the uh the new macbook pro uses the uh the new macbook pro keyboard platform and not the old butterfly is the old one is it currently using the butterfly i don't think it's using the butterfly switches because the i hated the butterfly switches with every fiber of my being i if i'm pointing to a magic keyboard right now but yeah it definitely does it definitely feels better than the 12 inch macbook i feel like it's scissor switch scissor switch i don't have a problem with the magic keyboard i think it's pretty good it's like identical to the okay it's not really it's definitely not butterfly butterfly was like

even less like scissors like this butterfly the microphone just rose and dav out of well we can't three inches scissor is like this butterfly is like this and I'm sorry to audio listen it's even confusing when you're looking at it to be honest honest but feel wise the butterfly was terrible and yes there's which is fine I don't love low-profile that much but I have no issues with the magic keyboard yeah I remember like when we did that typing test a while ago i won using a keyboard that was like crazy expensive everyone's like he only won because he used that and then i went on my

magic keyboard and typed faster than what i did dang if you're just it's about being used to a keyboard yeah yeah okay well thanks for entertaining me but it's usbc that is good uh snapdragon 8 elite so qualcomm has a history of every single year releasing a new chipset um usually it used to be the 8 like 845 855 865 they were kind of going along with that cadence eventually they switched to 888 uh because it was a lucky number or something triple a yeah it was weird and then the next year they did snapdragon 8 gen 1 they did three of those and then now apparently the new uh the new chipset is called snapdragon 8 elite and that's sort of a play on their laptop chipsets which are snapdragon plus and snapdragon elite chipsets and so i think they're trying to communicate one that they're sort of shrinking those chipsets down to a phone size because they did pretty

heavily modify the architecture quite a bit um it is also three nanometer so it should be a lot more efficient and qualcomm is quoting a lot of big numbers here. They said the chip should be about 44% more efficient, which is pretty massive. 44% is a big increase. And the 8 Gen 3 was already extremely efficient. So that was nice. 33% additional ISP throughput, which an ISP is the image signal processor,

which means it can take in more data, which means theoretically you should be able to do things like 4K 120, 4K 240 at some point maybe stuff like that um it is significantly beating the pixel 9 pro xl tensor chip by a factor of two in many care okay by more than a factor of two in many categories so seems good um ironically there is a big dispute right now between Qualcomm and Arm that has just escalated. And Arm is giving Qualcomm 60 days to like fix this dispute. Otherwise, they're revoking the architecture access, which could be like horrible. But Arm and Qualcomm both benefit from their relationship like immensely because that's where both of the companies make a ton of their money do you think that's like a negotiating play to like release

that to the public absolutely during the event while they're all in hawaii probably yeah like that came out yesterday right it came out five six hours ago is yeah yeah today while everyone's like chilling on the beach right now the mai Mai Tai talking about chips. Yeah. I guess the problem was that Qualcomm purchased Nuvia, which had a separate licensing deal with Arm. And I guess when they purchased them, they didn't renegotiate the licensing deal. So they said that Arm is saying that it terminated the licensing deal, but Qualcomm is saying that it's not a big deal. Anyway, it's a little complicated.

I doubt anything will really happen. I think they will probably just settle it in court and people will get paid and we'll move on so either way i think that we're going to see a bunch of different phones with the snapdragon 8 elite chip set this year um the xiaomi 15 series is apparently the first uh set of phones to use the chip and the asus rog 9 series is coming out in november which is kind of confusing because the rog 8 came out we were looking this up because we were just talking about smartphone awards and trying to make sure we get all the phones in um before the end of the year which is tough which is really tough with these two announcements right after we kind of like did our whole discussion behind the scenes here yeah but the rog phone 8 came out january 14th

i believe so just before this year so are we gonna have eight and nine out in the same year i guess fun a lot of a lot of companies started doing that and it's yeah it's not we've been put we've talked about this numerous times how like companies just keep pushing their dates closer and closer like the samsung first galaxy series used to come out around like march and now it's all the way up to like the second week of january and you wonder is it ever gonna peak into his same year yeah rg did that this right no i mean um qualcomm tech summit used to be in december and then it just kept getting moved earlier and earlier and earlier it was december and then november and then october and now it's like kind of in the middle of october yeah you know it might be a summer thing at some point.

Who knows? I heard the reason was because all of these companies want exclusivity deals to be the first one to launch with the new chipset. Okay. And all the other companies are like, well, you can't delay us that much. So they basically keep moving the summit up

so that they can have like Xiaomi release their phone first. I can see that because a couple years ago do you remember their way of showing off the new chipset was they made that like qualcomm phone that was very clearly it was not it was just an rog phone but it had qualcomm branding reference phone yeah so like that no one cared about that because it was a phone that wasn't really going to exist although it kind of was going to exist. So partnering with an actual phone that's coming out is way cooler to get yourself over. I mean, in general, the Snapdragon event is kind of boring

because it's harder for us to reference it directly to a product that we use all the time. That's why it's easier to talk about Apple chips because they talk about them in the same thing as the phone releasing, where Qualcomm has to be like, here's the thing we're making that could be in a bunch of different phones but it's not even all of the android phones right some of the android phones that maybe you want or are looking

at yeah they also say they also say things like twice as fast in tasks like your browser which doesn't mean a lot didn't you say it was like chrome yeah i think they said in google chrome and it's like i mean usually that's just a bottleneck of your network speed and i don't think people really notice the difference between like how quickly a browser loads that's why i think these events are kind of tough because they give you these big numbers but it's really hard to reference directly where that's benefiting me in and like and and to be fair the graphs on apple events we've made fun of for years too because it's just like totally this is 2x more than some windows laptop or like no numbers on the y-axis at all imagine eating laptop using any of these graphs in school

you should be like this isn't even a graph this is a drawing i don't know what to tell you yeah and every year the summit tends to get longer and longer and that's because they just have more partners come on and basically announce new products i think like rivian was there this year really yeah yeah because they did announce a google like automotive thing um two years ago or so hiroshi was there to talk about android it's yeah they just have a lot of partners it's a very boring event um but at least the new stuff is coming out it is yeah so um i have one more thing to wrap up this section okay stop talking about the damn chip why are all the nerds talking about the chip inside the phone sorry i just had to i was like uh we were talking about this and then i went on your twitter the other day and saw this

as the banner and i was like yeah this has to be talking about the snapdragon it was actually about tensor it was about tensor i got that yeah i made a video about tensor on my youtube channel and someone it was literally called on google tensor amic computing and whatever and the guy commented stop talking about the jam chip why are all the nerds talking about the chip inside the phone it was like bro the video is called tensor snapdragon should open with this comment. Why are all the nerds? Anyway, yeah, we can move on. Another thing that came out this week was the Apple AirPods Pro 2 hearing test.

If you can hear that, you are officially a nerd. Nice. Nerds can't hear that. I didn't understand. Wait. Oh, so you are officially a nerd. Nice. Nerds can't hear that. I didn't understand. Wait. Oh, so you're not a nerd, I guess. Sorry, I was trying to... He was trying to do a tone.

Yeah, mimic a straight tone like a hearing test, but it clearly didn't work. Yeah. I did the hearing test this morning. For those that don't remember, Apple basically was like, all AirPods Pro 2 are now going to be able to be used as hearing aid devices. They got FDA clearance. So now basically, if you are on iOS 18.1, you have a pair of AirPods Pro 2, you can take a hearing test, which effectively tells you whether or not you have hearing loss, and then can recommend that you wear your AirPods basically as hearing aids.

Yeah. And I thought it also was just the hearing loss thing wasn't just for hearing aids, but also because there's the, like if you're wearing it at a concert or in loud events, it's just like you should test yourself to see what your current hearing loss is. And maybe you should start using these to protect yourself during those events.

Right, totally. Yeah, you can turn on hearing protection for when you're at a concert and stuff like that, which is a good idea because these headphones are basically taking all of this noise and like lowering those high frequencies so that they don't damage your ears. Also, I think 18.1 comes out next week at the time of recording. Got it. Got it. But you tested it this morning? I tested it this morning. Yeah.

How long did it take? It took seven minutes and 42 seconds. Okay. And I know that because i did a screen recording for adam okay you put it in the video version of the podcast thank you you're welcome how easy was it what do you have so basically it shows this screen and it has this little kind of glowing orb that you tap when you hear a tone okay and so it does each ear does your left ear first and then your right ear and it goes like beep beep beep beep yeah and then it kind of sounds with hearing loss doesn't hear any of that

go get your ears checked but i mean it did there would be like 30 second periods of time where i heard nothing and i was like oh god but i came out of it and it said i had little to no hearing loss so that was good. So I guess I can keep going to all the concerts. Weird flex, but okay. Thanks. You can stand right next to the speaker in the front row. Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty, it's a pretty big benefit for people that own these things. Do you know if I could take that test on your phone if I don't have an iPhone or AirPods. Yeah, you could. Okay. It's not like a setup to your health account or anything like that.

It's just take it. Well, the results show up in your health account, but it's not like, it's like, these aren't David's ears or like, you know. Cool. But yeah, I could probably cancel out my results from it if you just wanted to take it. Yeah. And then it's only which AirPodspods airpods pro 2 okay because it needs the seal to make sure it can like yeah oh why not the first airpods pro

um i don't know chipset or money maybe money possibly cool yeah likely money so yeah i mean that's i we talked about how that was a lot of our favorite parts of the last Apple event for sure. It was actually like the hearing aid and hearing protection part of the AirPods, mostly because the rest of the event wasn't that great, but yeah. I mean, I think most of the time, the things that are actually benefiting you in everyday life are the things that are very, very helpful. And so hearing does benefit you in everyday life. I went to this Pink Floyd tribute band concert and we were sitting way too close to the front, and it was painful.

It was painful. So I think something like this would be actually very beneficial. Yeah. I would like to take it afterwards and see. I don't think my hearing's great, if I'm being honest. Yeah. I mean, to be clear, you can probably use most wireless headphones that have ANC to make these concerts less damaging to your ears.

Ellis, is that true? Are AirPods specifically good at that? This might be a really stupid question. What makes a good pair of hearing protection at a concert? Because I don't want to go and screw up the music that i'm hearing but i want to protect my ears earplugs like i can't just go with a pair of i think you go with a pair of pixel regular earplugs that i want to wear to sleep and not hear anything or can i you could

okay i don't i mean headphones speak very carefully here because because we're on the edge of uh health advice yeah yeah let's be um but to my understanding allegedly allegedly there's a bunch of different kinds of earplugs you can use right most of them like the two most common kinds you're going to see foam and wax earplugs you can use, right? Most of them, like the two most common kinds you're going to see foam and wax earplugs operate by creating a seal, like a really, really tight seal that actually stops energy from being mechanically transferred into your ear canal. Thank you, Adam. Your body does not just perceive sound with the small bone filaments inside your ear canal and with your eardrum. You actually have lots of different ways you can hear sound.

You have your cochlear. Cochlear, yeah. But I can't remember if the cochlea is the one. The vibrations of your skull can be perceived as hearing the vibrations of like your chest cavity can be perceived as hearing. There's like lots of different ways. So just plugging your ears doesn't necessarily like stop you from hearing. However, foam and wax earplugs stop sounds at a really uneven frequency thing, a frequency rate scale. It's the morning.

So what happens, a lot of people, when they use foam earplugs at a concert, all the high frequencies go away first. And the concert sounds really boring and muffled, and it's really hard to hear things like a singer. And then also, like, big, boomy bass sounds just sort of come in unimpeded. What makes AirPods really cool is because it's an active thing, and they're monitoring themselves, they can give you a really flat frequency response. And if you check your Apple Watch, like it'll tell you like without earplugs, it's this or without AirPods, this volume with AirPods, you're perceiving it at this volume. Does it usually give it to you in like an OSHA safe volume in your airpods that's what it always tells me

how safe is that like I don't I don't know it's the thing where it's it's like how much can you trust the pedometer on your iPhone yeah you know like I mean there is a noticeable difference when you put it in and you're listening at a concert and your ears are not hurting you know there's a noticeable

difference and like there's a noticeable difference going from earplugs to um airpods there are situations where the because of like the complex nature of sound in space like the airpods have gotten messed up like i've been at concerts where i'm sort of like not in a direct path of the speaker and i'm getting a lot of like speaker reflections around the room and i can hear like the timing of the anc start to get a little iffy um i don't know if i ever answered the direct question yeah he was just saying do our airp AirPods special for any reason? I've used Pixel Buds at a concert and it was fine.

Yeah, the only earbuds that I've used and been like, this is straight up not working are the Bose QuietComfort Buds. Oh. Where I found that those drivers did not have enough excursion to actually do a lot of low frequency stuff

and as the drivers were bottoming it out trying to cancel noise they were creating harmonics and all of a sudden like the signals that were being created to cancel out what was already in the air you know were like distorted and i could hear just those it was it didn't work interesting um okay but i think just as far as like the airpods as far as i'm aware like some of the highest excursion drivers in an earbud as well as having ridiculously fast compute like i can't really imagine things are much better that's exactly what i was yeah yeah and i mean they have official fda clearance which is like but the fda clearance isn't for it's for being the FDA clearance isn't for...

It's for being a hearing aid, not for sound protection. Ah, right, right, right. That's not for sound protection. True, true, true, true. Yeah. Also, the adaptive mode in is just so good. Really? I used to hate it, and now I'm like, I live in adaptive mode.

I'm willing to give it a swing again. I just don't like not having access to it. When you're in the city it's just like it's amazing okay anywho anywho thank you a lot of people were like wondering whether or not airpods were going to be eligible for their like health hsa benefits like if you can use your insurance for it so far i don't believe anyone's doing that yet but in the past the insurance has paid for things like a fitbit and has actually lowered your insurance if you commit to like hitting certain goals on fitbit and that kind of stuff so it's

possible that airpods could eventually be covered by yeah if i remember correctly do you remember the um the pants with the like uh leg joint that helps you like walk that I can't remember what they are called right now. Not the motorized ones. The Arcteryx skips? Not the Arcteryx. Skip, I think. It was Arcteryx pants, but Skip Joy or something like that

was the name of the company. I just remember them talking about how like, how hard it is to get to the point of like becoming a medical device where that would be accepted on insurance. I'm sure Apple is way better at doing that than like a startup company sure but i think getting to that point is pretty hard and i feel like this is just an assumption here but hearing protection is like generally something you need unless you're working in the space as like a fun thing to do where if you can do a Fitbit,

they're usually like, if you can hit 10,000 steps for 20 days of the month, that's just an overall health benefit thing that they assume will make you pay less insurance because you're a healthier individual. Where generally going somewhere to blow your ears out is an extracurricular activity. Fair enough.

So I don't know. Unless you're working in that space. But again, it's the hearing aid part of it. Hearing aid part of it. Not necessarily the hearing protection. And as a hearing aid that is, like, FDA cleared. Yeah, I would not doubt if Apple's at least fighting to try and get some sort of coverage.

I'm wondering if people outside of the U.S. are like, what are you guys talking about? And it's because we have insane insurance things to cover our health in the U.S. are like, what are you guys talking about? And it's because we have insane insurance things to cover our health in the U.S. And it's basically impossible to figure out. Yeah. The hearing aid industry is definitely going to have to step their game up, though, because they're generally extremely expensive

and cannot be used for things like good music listening. I know nothing about hearing aids. I've heard a lot of people talk about hearing aids on socials the last few weeks. And it's been like, these were extremely expensive. They're kind of hard to get. I'm sure they're expensive. The tech is really outdated.

So yeah, we'll see if that happens. Now we can talk about the tri-fold. There's a tri-fold? The Samsung tri-fold. A Samsung tri-fold. Rumor, ZDNetorea reported that it's in the works screen that folds twice just like the xt planning to release it next year alongside a flip type product um and it says the report notes that samsung's display wing has already completed

development of parts for the trifold model and everything is ready to hit the market hmm i would bet that they have had this ready for a long period of time if you look if you look at the last few galaxy folds they're pretty much all identical yeah very close to identical it's funny too because this would be the this makes sense to be called the z fold a lot of people brought that up in our xt thing but when you actually do do the tri-fold, it can make a Z. Right. Which is very funny. Even though the Samsung is called the Z-fold, that doesn't make the Z.

Yeah. I wonder, there were some other people reaching out to us talking about the XT and how in China it seems like a lot of them are breaking. Which makes sense with the outside fold. I mean, when that's getting hit against. it seems like a lot of them are breaking um which makes sense with the outside fold i mean when that's getting hit against although their little case has that like the thing that snaps on to protect that corner right um but it seems like there are a lot that are breaking so that will be interesting i want to say samsung you know if they do release it they would have a way to protect that but they also released the first fold that everyone broke and then had to fix

that. Yes. Yeah. If it is true that they have been building this for a very long period of time though maybe they actually went through all those steps to check for that but you know. I want to believe that. I want to believe. But when you send something out into the wild it's always going to have different user use

than testing it in the lab. For sure. And we like to break things well yeah you know what i'm most excited about what's that i really hope that flip type product is a tri-flip what if it flips twice yeah exactly it's just super long 30 by nine that's what i'm talking about yeah give me those long phones pictures on his phone. They should do it, the double flip and then an LG wing hit to the top. So it goes like. Honestly, that is the kind of stuff they show off at CES.

Isn't it the GameCube starting animation? It does mix the G. That's the peak folding phone we're getting to. Just keep unfolding. That is just the crumple phone. That is just the crumple phone. And then they could start an app where folding phone enthusiasts could meet each other.

It's called Hinge. Ayo, I like that. Nice job. And that concludes our Samsung Fold coverage. Cool. I think we should take a trivia break. The one for tri-fold enthusiasts could be called Hinge 2. Okay.

Two Hinged, Two Furious. Two Hinged, Two Furious. All right. First question. Unhinge. Dear listeners, I hope you enjoy this last episode of the Waveform Podcast because Marques is going to fire us all. We've officially fit in a byte of data

We can pack it up First question So we give the magic mouse a lot of crap here except Ellis and Michael who love them But there was Wait Ellis doesn't like it? There was a previous version of an apple mouse Yeah The one with the little gray ball in the middle.

The one that's a circle. Yeah. What is it called? I have no idea. I think. I had to use that in middle school though. I had it in high school. It was awful.

It's the worst. Wait, I loved the little ball for my Final Cut timeline. But the problem was it was- Side scroll. Wait, are you talking about the circle one? No, no, no, no, no. No. No, no. There was the, it was like clear and then had

like a white part on the bottom and then it was totally clear. It had no right click. It had side clicks and had this little tiny. That's the one. The trackball was the size of like a bead for a necklace. Right, I remember that. And it was actually really satisfying. Okay, I do know that mouse, but I was thinking of the circular one.

You're thinking of like the G4. The iMac G4 one that, yeah, it was awful. It was insane. Yeah, so what is the name of that mouse? I have a guess, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. And it's gonna sound really dumb if it's wrong. So let's take a break. All right.

70,000 people are here. And Bob Dylan is the reason for it. Inspired by the true story. If anyone is going to hold your attention on stage, you have to kind of be a freak. Are you a freak? Hope so. All right. Welcome back. el fane monica barbara a complete unknown only in peter's christmas day all right welcome back uh right now we have the snapchat spectacles new version i don't know if they're called something else just the spectacles that's actually a great question because when i was trying to tell tim what to put on the thumbnail this week i was like the snapchat spectacles but not the old ones but how do I search this? I think you have to search Snapchat Spectacles 4, and this comes up. Oh my gosh.

Well, we have them in the office, and Andrew and Ellis both had the opportunity to try the Meta Orion glasses. And these. I've tried them both. First, we all got to try the Spectacles. Because we've talked about them on the pod, but only from the event.

Now we all got to try them. Let's talk about our experience with this first and then what i want to do is both of these are dev units these are not going to consumers and both of them clearly have a lot of things that need to be done before they come to consumers but i kind of wanted to just do like a here are the main pillars we would look at in a review and let's give a point to each one after this okay i'm like i'm just doing it yeah i think it's a great idea but let's talk about ellis is wearing them they're not that weird looking they try no they're not absolutely not i don't say they could be weirder well let's start with that how do they look they look like product glasses i think they look cool i took

a picture of brandon that is going to be in the b-roll over me talking right now that they just look like normal glasses i thought that was the meta orions that that picture was yeah that's not that these are very different these are a little more out there in i feel like just looking at you now if i couldn't see the wave guides the wave guides like kind of blur your eyes or make them look weird because there's a bunch of different like squares inside the waveguards in in this room where there's lots of different lights and a lot of the lights are very like unsoftened and angular the artifacts be going nuts like prisming which is something meta told us about which is a reason because these are using glass i believe as the lenses glass wave guides yeah and meta told us the

reason they didn't like those is because because of lights coming in can create that rainbowy prism effect sometimes so that's why there's a bunch of reasons they use silicon carbide that's one of them for sure yes i would say though because of the glass i think without the lights having the problem it feels like a clearer view through them than the meta ones i thought the meta ones felt kind of tinted they you know it's hard for me to say just on memory but i do think you're right ever so slightly and one thing these can do they have the like uh electrochromatic you can tint this yeah which is awesome it's very cool um but but back to how they look the amount of uh temple wing that comes back behind your ear is like four or five inches this

may look effortless wearing these glasses with headphones i promise it's not they uh they barely both fit on my skull they're super I think they are 230 grams we weighed and the Meta Orion glasses. I'm sorry. Meta's are 98. Yeah, 98. I'm American. I don't, what does that mean?

They're double. Yeah, but Meta has the puck separately. It does, correct. Yeah, these are all in the glasses themselves, but it does connect to your phone. So it's kind of like, where's the compute? That kind of thing. But yeah, these are like 200s on the gram so they're quite a bit heavier yeah can i borrow them for a second so i can show the audience how they fit on my head

that was really hard all right so the where your ears are supposed to sit there's not a lot of bend here or flex yet so when i put them on it crushes my ears your ear shape does not work with these it not at all i look like a uh like when you put your sunglasses on like a four-year-old and they like like it's not comfortable at all it looks uncomfortable i think my ears the top of my ear is touching the middle of my ear. You look like a boxer. That's exactly what I said. Can I see how they... Okay. I'm going to see how we fit mine.

I think form factor wise, these are a lot. David just pulled his ears to tuck the glasses in behind them. You look like a Pixar character. Do they really do stick out really far back they definitely make my ears um kind of flare out flare for sure they're not bending like mine but they're like flared out and obviously there's a lot going on yeah there's a lot going on behind them you kind of pull them off really yeah all right so does rich weirdly enough i think they're cool i mean they're not like i would never be like wow who designed those prada but here's the question would you ever look at someone wearing those and be like oh that's a cool pair of normal glasses in new york city yeah you know

but i said that about the the meta glasses six months ago and then i got fooled the meta ray bands yeah oh i think they literally are glasses no those they are a little when i first saw them i was like what the hell is this sentry turret face hugger on this on this and then i i saw i saw someone on meta campus and realized they were wearing them for minutes into the conversation when you just like look at the glasses you're like oh those are big and weird but then when someone's wearing them and you're just in the right color you're like, oh, those are big and weird. But then when someone's wearing them and you're just around and you're not expecting it, it is able to... These are big. Yeah, those are big.

These look like... I mean, we've all said it, but like 3D glasses. Yeah, yeah. Like the new movie theater 3D glasses. Not the old red and blue ones, which look way cooler. Did you say the old red and blue ones? Yeah. Dude, when was the last...

Did you describe the polarized ones as new? Yeah. Am I missing something here no i mean they are newer than these now yeah they are way newer i know but didn't we switch away from the red and blue in like 2000 i think the last movie i saw with the red and blue glasses was like spy kids 3d yeah but it's still the newest ones yeah they're yeah are we gonna call the ipod nano the new ipod the new ipod nano is it the newest ipod okay got off track there a little old um experience with these you both experienced them before me i tried a little bit this morning but

i think you guys have had a little more yeah are we comparing the actual experience let's not compare it yet let's just talk about these so like what did you all do in these and what was it like in the actual ar-ness of the classes so there's a few different things that you all do in these? And what was it like in the actual AR-ness of the glasses? So there's a few different things that you can do with the new spectacles. The new, see the new spectacles, the new 3D glasses spectacles. One of the things you can do is sort of this like, it kind of felt like HoloLens to me, if anyone has tried HoloLens. Similar situation where the field of view is not very

high because the actual projector area is just kind of in the center do you know what the technical field of view of these are i think it's 43 i don't but 43 degrees both meta engineers and our kind snapchat visitor seem to imply that choosing glass as a wave guide also limits the field of view. Yes. As opposed to silicon carbide. Okay. Like it's not just the projector.

Right, right, right. But it's definitely kind of like condensed into the center of your field of vision. So just like HoloLens, you sort of have all these different experiences that kind of only work if you're staring directly at them. One of those experiences is, I mean, they had a whole playground of experiences, which was a pretty cool thing. I mean, they've clearly been working on this technology for like a really long time. And so internal at Snapchat, they're just building like, what are the craziest use cases that we can do with it? They had a classic one, which is where they just have like a

T-Rex that's like walking around and you see the scale of it and everything. But again, without the without a huge field of view, as soon as you remotely turn your head, it just starts getting cut off. Also, yeah, it, uh, obviously we don't have any proof of this. We're not in Venice beach hanging out with the Snapchat folks, but they made it seem like there's a pretty large ecosystem of developers already doing AR. Uh, they call them lenses. Yeah. Lenses. Each experience.

Well, yeah, because Snapchat lenses are also just the AR experiences you use in the Snapchat ad on your phone. Totally. But when we were doing the experiences, I kept asking, is this an in-house one? Or is this a third party thing that you guys have loaded onto this demo unit? And he was like, honestly, I can't even keep track anymore. um yeah i mean i could see people developing on these um but it is extremely expensive to develop on these for some reason wasn't it was like 99 i thought these were about a hundred dollars a month with and you had to purchase a year but i guess as a developer if you're developing for something that's not crazy if you're like a company i guess or yeah even if you're planning to make something that's going to be hopefully making money is that herp hair though i believe so yeah okay so that's gonna get expensive yeah i can yeah so a big differentiator i would say is like the orion glasses have really good spatial pinning whereas these are much more like hollow

lens where it's just got a sort of a field of view a smaller field of view and then when you look around you know things are there still but it's not like you know the the the spatial awareness and pinning is not quite the same i'm wondering if like is the pinning that much worse or is it just the field of view makes it feel so much worse so it's 46 degree field of view on the snapchat spectacles and 70 on the meta orion glasses okay that seems like a significant number and it feels significantly different wearing both of them like the orion glasses if you really got to the edge of your view it would happen for sure this feels like i'm fighting to keep things in my view and especially if it's close um i did like the Lego experience,

which just puts like some Legos on a block. And just by like turning my head to look down, I would just like saw off half of the Legos that I was looking at. Yeah, I agree. And it's not that they weren't pinned well on the table. It actually did like a really impressive job at that. But just anything I tried to do,

I was cutting part of it off. Yeah. A significant amount of the time okay so i didn't get to try the eye tracking part of the orion glasses which these do not do oh yeah um i did find both the spatial pinning to be better on orion and i found the and i think this is kind of the same technology the hand tracking to also be way better on orion and i found the and i think this is kind of the same technology the hand tracking to also be way better uh on orion not that these were unusable like totally usable yeah but um i definitely found felt myself like trying to do things to like make them work better whereas the

the the metaglasses felt pretty indistinguishable from the hand tracking on a quest sure where you can just do all the same yeah yeah i have a question for both of you um a lot of people that have tried orion have been like this is our best look at the future yet and they are seem very excited about it but people have tried this and they're not really saying that and i tried these and it felt like they took hololens which to be fair hololens was pretty big and they shrunk it down into these which is kind of impressive even though i just don't really think the technology is incredible incredible so what would you say about orion is significantly more like jaw-dropping than these i think like if anything there no no there are plenty of things and i think we'll we might as well just start pitting them against each other at this point because i think it starts

answering a lot of those questions category by category yeah yeah i um first thing i wanted to ask though just to really pin on the field of view we all played the golf game on this did you try it okay that was the sorry that was the one that most made me realize like that it's important yeah you like look at this hole ahead of you and it like zooms you back and then it shows a line to the ball and you kind of have to follow the line because you're shooting into this window where the golf and then the ball is actually on the environment that you're in but just like every time you would look you just would see all these ways it's cut off and i i think what's kind of weird about this is because it's smaller and it's such a perfect rectangle you don't realize when you move your head you start chopping things at an angle and that just feels

even more weird when it's chopping stuff off where the the metaglass is because the field of view is larger it was generally on the outskirts of your eyes and when you're turning that much it's it's very hard to hit an edge of something you might be projecting i don't this like really we keep saying marquez and i realized this when we're talking the other day like kills the immersion but ar glasses shouldn't really be immersive but they kind of are i just don't know the way that it's tricking your brain into thinking it's like really yeah yeah it kills that pretty hard i think to answer your question david which is a really good question is that i personally did not come away brain into thinking it's like really yeah yeah it kills that pretty hard i think to answer your question david which is a really good question is that i personally did not come away after

trying both these glasses thinking like the orion ones are noticeably more inspiring or like noticeably better than the spectacles uh i think they both have strengths in different areas. Overall, though, I think the Metaglasses were a flashier pony show. Like the, yeah, I don't know. Do you want to go down this list? Yeah, let's go down this list. I think there's a lot of things in there that I, okay, so let's, this to me, I think,

is the biggest thing that, like, let's imagine these as, if they were consumer products, like the thing that I would want it to be as if they were consumer products like the thing that i would want it to be and like which neither of them are neither of them are where you know like i guess we can kind of take this and think of it as like this is what they should become yeah down the line but let's talk about form factor first these are supposed to be glasses that you kind of wear like all day do you think so david and i were literally having this i want

to hear the conversation about that's true do you wear these all day or do you put them on to do stuff and then take them off to be a person yeah i guess i would actually walk somewhere in the middle all day nah i'd say all day out and not at home if you're making a computer for my face i want to be able to put it on and not think about it all day i don't know i don't want to have to think about whether i want to take it off for okay look not to be overly pessimistic but like does everyone really want glasses that you wear all the time that are computer connected because at some point the ads are gonna start coming yes yes yes and you're not i can't argue that yeah and also like do we really want a future where you're sitting in a coffee shop scrolling reels, but nobody even knows

that you're doing that? You're going to have subway surfers playing off to the side while you're trying to have a conversation with your mom. That's epic. Sorry, mom, have a better conversation. My mom listens to this and she's not going to love that. From meta, anyway.

No, no, no. You can block out the ads in this beautiful ar future yeah well yeah with meta premium as a as like the whole idea of like being able to dive into some computing by putting on the glasses while still not being like taken out of because i'll be real i'll be real i'd rather have a coffee shop full of people with ar glasses on tiktok have a coffee shop full of people with AR glasses on TikTok than a coffee shop full of people with AirPods and their phones on TikTok. Well, they're still going to wear the AirPods. Well, no, because of the...

Yeah, but they have leakage and... I think... I'm not worried about that. Okay. That being said, I agree with you, David. I think the battery life restrictions on these things oh yeah are a good thing i kind of think don't make it don't make it better yeah keep it there and yeah the ads are really worrying dude because it's it's a sad world when you're in the car with your bud

you're doing a road trip and you're both wearing your speckies and you uh and you look out the window and you both stare at the same area and you see different billboards right now if we're trying to talk about like what's cool about these getting straight into the like potential ad conversation feels like we were like losing for sure a little bit of the tech on this form factor for sure for sure um we were still having this conversation though of like do you wear them for a few hours so like when companies started using like htc vibes and all of that stuff in actual practice you know there would be press releases that say like bmw mercedes is using vibes to like help design the interiors of the cars i'm not sure if that actually was a thing that they like implemented

full on or if they did it once so that they could have a press release why else would there be a hard hat hololens that's fair point fair point um but either way you know those are tasks that you are specifically using the device so that it is better while you are designing the little bits of this car for an hour and a half right and so i think we've looked at things like the uh apple vision pro in a similar way right like oh you want to do a video call a facetime call with someone and you want to feel like this telepresence and they're floating in the room and you're doing this over here like they're kind of positioning it as a work and entertainment device but they're not positioning that as like an all day device. And I understand it's because it's a headset and not a pair of glasses. Um, but for a, for a

computer to be on your face all the time, I feel like it would be better for people to use it for specific tasks and then put it away. The, the thing that kind of makes that tricky is that they're trying to make it look as much like a normal pair of glasses that you would normally wear all day as possible and so i do think the future we're headed towards is the future where they're trying to get that eight hours of battery life and that's that's because at the end of the day both meta and snapchat are companies whose business models rely on attention increasing engagement and increasing time spent i mean i think here both of them are building these as things that stay on your face

for a significant part of your day not just pulling it out for when you want to use it which is a shame i disagree that's how i want i guess like if i'm going out for the day i don't want to have to bring like a pair of sun like i want my sunglasses to just have the things in it already and when i want that i have it if that if i'm thinking of the world all day i just want it to be a regular pair of glasses all day and then when i need to use it it's just there yeah because otherwise i'm not bringing it which is what the meta ray bands are supposed to be basically well but they have no projection this is no no but that's still the world that they're like looking towards right they're trying to make these in the form factor of the Meta Ray Bans. That's like their ultimate goal.

This is all the same. As a form factor, assuming we're only wearing these for an hour at a time, these are just too big to be comfortable. They're just barely too big to be comfortable. Form factor, the Meta Orions win by a mile. I'm laying it down here first i'm pro puck oh i was just gonna say i disagree because these don't have a puck now the space you save and the glasses that i would assume is because in part because of the compute puck

is cool and it fits into my fantasy of when i need to use these i take out my glasses in a cute little glasses case i take out the puck in a cute little glasses case i take out the puck in a cute little puck case and i put it on the table and i use my glasses and then when i'm done i wrap it all up and i i go back to being a human person with blood in my veins my perfect example my perfect use case for this are these glasses the snapchat ones with no puck because the compute is in my phone i'm already carrying around a puck let me just use the brains in that thing whoa yeah i mean i would prefer not to carry an extra piece of equipment yeah yeah but the only I'm already carrying around a puck. Let me just use the brains in that thing. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, I would prefer not to carry an extra piece of equipment.

Yeah. Yeah. But the only reason the meta Orion glasses have a puck is because they can't make a phone. If they could just make a phone and people would use it, it would just be in the phone. Well, they can make an app.

That's all snapped. Yeah. But then Apple's going to take 30%. No, I see. I still think as far as form factor goes i like the idea of lighter weight more comfortable glasses and a companion i like it i'm sorry so you don't need your phone i guess the the benefit there is you don't need your phone i mean the ultimate form factor is just the glasses

what about this what about glasses that you can wear all the time but they work so well as regular glasses that are like transition lenses or whatever that you can wear all the time but they work so well as regular glasses that are like transition lenses or whatever that you can like have them be off and then when you want to use the compute you can turn them on that's yeah that's what they're doing well yeah but i think that the idea right now is sort of just that they're always sort of running in the background and giving you like additional like arqs and that kind of stuff. You don't think about it. You walk up to a new person. It says, Andrew, above your head. I don't think that's necessarily

they're forcing that or anything. I think we're imagining things because meta is bad, which I don't disagree with. But I don't think they've ever said that this is just going to start playing things without you asking or doing things. But they haven't not said that. Yeah. And we've all used Facebook.

So form factor. Which one? The Orion. Orion. Orion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You too? I haven't gotten to try it, so I have no opinion.

No, but just form factor. I mean, like, you saw them on people's faces. Which one looked more like something you would wear? Yeah, the Orion definitely looks more like glasses. But style points for the Speckys. Nice. I like them. Yeah, they do look like Prada.

They're cool. And you can call them Speckys, which is a plus. If I, look, you know, there's two sides. There's one side where it's like the right outfit, roll up to the club at 1am, you're getting in with those. The other side is if you wear any orange at all, you will become Vector from Despicable Me. So, you know, whatever. The four-vector I want is the original generation of Spectacles,

but with the benefits. Jesus. Yeah. Those were the most amazing. Resolution. Disgusting. That is not a question, because the Snapchat Spectacles have such a better resolution

yeah the actual projections on the snapchat spectacles are yeah what feels like miles ahead and we we have to say over at meta they were like we could have made it higher resolution but we were prioritizing battery life and saving compute for other things okay so question for you guys since you tried it do you think that's the right trade-off would you take a hit in resolution to have more power like that i think both of the battery lives are terrible on these so but like i don't think it's really a resolution or field of view field of view okay that's a that's a really good question i'd rather have the field of view too but i also i think we should and this will make we can talk about this more when it gets the actual experiences

assuming that there was a major compute hit on like either it was like literal compute or like the extra thermal load you need to be able to take out by doing that much more compute i did find the experiences to be a lot more enriching on the snapchat spectacles wait but those are the higher resolution ones yeah so what the hell well i mean i think there's just more experiences i mean we can talk about that there's also just a lot of stuff you can do apps and experiences the snapchat spectacles so have way more things than i think for orion better things and better like i i got are we going into experiences now are we there yeah let's just do experience we all said resolution for spectacles if that's just resolution tech companies david and i have been saying this for a while you can't use an example

of your product as i'm too stupid to do this without a computer you can't so when they were like i want to make a smoothie and my pantry is only smoothie ingredients. And I just can't figure it out. It's like, or he was like, I go into the grocery store and I have no idea what a summer squash is, but my wife will be mad. It's like, dude. Yeah. There are late. You don't even need to take out your phone for that one.

Straight up. Like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in that instance, I think it's more showing off the fact that they were able to pin the names of objects they are identifying. I think that was the more important part. It was a tech demo, not what you could actually do with it. Yeah, I agree.

It's like, that's a banana. Thanks for letting me know. Or like, that's the giant bag that says like Stevia on it. Right. In giant letters. It's like, okay okay you read that it said stevia these are all i agree with you though the pinning was impressive yeah no the pinning was impressive the object recognition it's great but it's the same time it's like there's a you're

making a lifestyle proposition when you're doing stuff like this and it's like if the lifestyle proposition is like do you order door dash so much that you can't identify basic foods do you need the rest of your life be more like doordash buy these thirty thousand dollar glasses totally i mean the classic example is like i've been to so many chatbot demos and large language model demos and every single time it's like some google engineer who has like 30 patents and probably a nobel prize and they're just like so how do i write a social media post about my cute dog? And then the post that gets written is, happy dog day, hashtag Saturday.

You know? I don't know. Whatever. We can move on from that. Sorry. That was a separate tangent. It was a separate tangent. Let's go down the list.

In terms of like the experience. No, no, experience. Keep deviating from the list. Okay, so, but in all seriousness the my favorite experience was uh the ping pong pong just regular pong i played with marquez and no right and it was because uh it was the first time i had ever used mr ar vr and had like a really meaningful shared experience with someone else i've done multiplayer games with people in quest and it was fun and done i've done a few i i've i had a great time with my cousins playing

this like squirrel game in vr that was really great yeah but in vr being able to like see marquez and and play a game with him and then when i asked you know it wasn't built into this current thing but they were like yeah you if you had a room full of people also wearing the spectacles, they could like spectate, you know, like the Orion glasses. Thank you. Yeah. That's cool, man. That's really cool. So you're Orion.

No, I thought that was every other experience other than that one I thought was cooler on the spectacles. I think it was called Beat Lab. It was like this music making one. Dude, I tried that one. I could not get it to work properly okay the hand tracking is not great on the spectacles it's pretty rough it was cool that it made me though yeah and i thought the experience was so fun that i actually didn't care about how how rough it was i thought the educational things like looked really beautiful and were like really engaging um the the lego thing was i thought i just thought yeah like yeah i had way more fun the easy thing here is the the room we did with the orion spectacle

or the the orion glasses was like five experiences maybe it was video chatting make a smoothie pong that arcade airplane game and go on instagram and go and the instagram app that's also not on an ipad snapchat you open up the first menu of experiences and there's already more than that and then you can scroll for what feels like quite a while so there are 10x the amount of apps on spectacles whether it's just a not so great golf game yeah that's another story but the orion things weren't that great either. Yeah. So I think apps experiences,

the Snapchat spectacles. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, this is kind of Snapchat's bread and butter. It's what they've been working on for years. And like clearly meta has a lot going on. So they're a lean team,

you know? Oh my goodness. It is funny that they built an instagram app for ar before they built it for the ipad it makes me mad can't make that stuff up um let's go since you guys both briefly talked about it though uh like controlling so i can't just call it hand tracking because it's different on the orion glasses there's hand tracking as well as the bracelet yeah i was gonna say are we counting the emg band yes it's part of the package i feel like yeah it doesn't need it which i think by itself is a great thing that meta did was like you can get this but you also don't need it so if you pass your

classes off to someone else they can use hand tracking yeah so i never actually got to try the emg so i can compare them both on computer vision. Should I do that? And then I'll let you guys dive into the band. So the winner here for me was Orion. And maybe it was because I'm used to the quest system and I'm familiar with the gestures and how to make them really clear and stuff. But I felt like it more accurately got that. I did feel like the Snapchat spectacles had really nice and easy physical buttons on them and i'm looping that in with just like general bandless control i thought was really cool and uh but overall i didn't other than the hand tracking clarity i didn't find

one of them to be dramatically better than the other one an interesting thing to note is if you like hold the orion glasses there's cameras everywhere on them if you look at these there's only two cameras on the front but on the bottom despite it looking like smooth plastic there's actually infrared cameras oh and those are the downward facing cameras i think they actually might be right there these like little i don't actually know where they are but i do know that they're in there and uh and that's how they look down at your hands. And I thought that was a really nifty fact for us to give you here at Waveform. I will, I think it's pretty easy to describe how good the band was.

And that's, imagine the, uh, vision. Nice. The, uh, Apple Vision Pro, like, first of all, you get to use your eyes to look at things, which I think is, like, the best way of selecting things inside of AR, VR. When it's calibrated correctly. When it's calibrated well, which you do do a calibration process in the Orion ones. Sorry, say it again.

So imagine the Apple Vision Pro eye selecting and tapping, except because you have that wristband, you get feedback with it every time as well yeah it's fantastic i think it's like so much better um and then being able to do like flipping and scrolling is awesome uh that band itself and the fact that it's like very minimal it doesn't feel like you're wearing this giant like handcuff or anything it's right in fact marquez was wearing it we went to eat lunch and forgot he was wearing it he just thought it was like ohuff or anything it's right in fact marquez was wearing it we went to eat lunch and forgot he was wearing it he just thought it was like oh he never took it off he never took it

off you forget you're wearing it and then you're like whoop there it is hey yo because it looks like a whoop it does look like a whoop so i think control wise meta wins like hands down right well hands up well hands hands literally anywhere you want random is using his hands behind his back wow uh which i don't think you oh sorry i was gonna say hand behind his back but that's right yeah that is kind of crazy though because we talked about the on the vision pro it has like a really wide field of vision for what you're doing with your fingers but that's because it has those uh lenses on the bottom area where it points down but you can't do behind your back i don't really know why you would want to do that,

but at least you could. I mean, I technically, in my hoodie, could be doing controls inside of my hoodie. Yeah, or like, you know, I feel like a lot of this is going to be used for evil stuff, so when you're in your big living room and you're pacing.

Behind your back. Oh, right. The evil villain pace. Yeah. because evil humans plot with their hands behind their back evil flies are the ones that oh true in front of them friction yeah anywho damn i was so close to cutting that but now i have to keep it that was hilarious yeah thanks man um all right pinning we kind of talked about i think pinning and tracking is the same technology right uh um like i feel like tracking i think of hand tracking and pinning yeah but what's the difference i i'm talking about like pinning things in the physical world and

them staying no no i get that but like is it not the same tracking it's just tracking a 3d space with the snapchat spectacles when you like lay something on a table if you walk away and come back is it in the same space i had a window floating by my desk that i came back to it really on these yes i can confirm if you think about it that's both of these companies know how to do that already snapchat's been doing it with ar things inside of your phone and snapchat forever they're good at pinning the dancing hot dog guy on where wherever you want yeah and meta's been doing it in the quest we've been able to do this since like the 3ds they're both great at it so i don't know if i have a clear winner on that it's

easier to see all the things you pinned on the the orion glasses because it's 70 degree field of view instead of 46 degree field of view but they're probably both pinned pretty well yeah from what we've tried i mean it's also we've all tried these for 20 minutes each maybe yeah yeah so not not anything too crazy yeah speakers it's minimal if you're gonna ask me which pair of these speakers is better, that's like asking a pizza chef, like, who makes a better slice, Lunchables or Lunchly? Neither of them are pizza. One's got mold on it, though.

No bad example. This will be my only thing. It's not even sound quality. Whenever anyone was using the Metaglasses, I never heard it. As an outsider outsider these spectacles whether the volume was just too loud but i felt like i heard everybody using these in the meta ray-ban glasses are good at when you're playing music just playing them directly into your ears

and not being that loud that is true so that could be user and i don't know if we just turn these on too loud but everyone i heard with this i heard you guys i think that meta ray-bans like they probably took those learnings for the meta ray bands and they definitely like those are product product products so they have to be out in the real world and work correctly these are extremely demo unit uh yeah and i'm i know that the orion glasses are also demo units but they still tried to make them more product like well and you're saying it they most likely they took the learnings from an actual product that's like an evolved version that's the only reason i would give orion the speakers

yeah i right now i did not come away from those experiences feeling like they were significantly yeah different in any way except for isolation i guess yeah but i was the one wearing them so yeah fair enough um battery life this is literally just a number orion is better yeah by double yeah but that makes it worse for the reasons i said earlier well even if you want them but wouldn't you rather than if you're using it minimally to then have to charge it less nope um the last thing i have on here is just the actual lens material itself and how that affects using them at first i was gonna say the snapchat spectacles because glass their glass and i thought it felt like a clear i keep wanting to call it pass-through but you know seeing is just what it

really is um ar yeah because the silicon carbide had what felt like kind of a tint and like it almost felt it like felt like i was looking through something but then now seeing these in more direct lights and seeing that prism effect i do think that like affects the actual uh i have like things on your screen can i see the glass i just feel like in order to say the next thing i'm gonna say i need to put them on the uh index of refraction with a glass wave guide is uh worse and it does create weirder artifacts weird rainbows and it is a little clearer the thing that i would describe the like overall um like clarity experience is and i understand this is something that very few people have like actually seen but sorry i'm taking off the glasses it's very awkward um if you've ever

gotten the chance to hold a raw like uh lcd panel like not in an enclosure like just took up to a power supply and everyone does that um and then you unhelix all of the crystals at once yeah by setting like a pure pattern that is what oh i know exactly what you're talking about okay okay but engineers listen to this they might have done that i still think very few people have done that all right everyone go to alibaba.com but that's that's what i would compare it to like like on unhoused lcd fully unhelixed does it change your opinion at all that using silicon carbide potentially 10x is the price of whatever it is well that's an interesting point here that i think we can i mean it's all dev stuff so it doesn't really matter yeah these are available for people who want to develop for outside of snap

well that's what i was gonna say it doesn't matter and they're like 120 a month for at least one year so expensive but doable versus the other one is basically unobtainium unless you work for meta yeah and it seems like and if you listen after this ad break marquez is going to do an interview with boz and i believe he threw out the number 20 000 to 30 000 a unit and i'm pretty sure he did not fight back on that look dude instagram not on a phone is expensive so those yeah those units are significantly more expensive yeah they did say something interesting at that briefing which was they believe that silicon carbide is the the future technology for this product class when it becomes like a widely adopted thing but they also said if the industry decides they're

going with glass they're ready to make the switch like they're they're not willing to die on the silicon carbide hill even though they believe eventually it will be the dominant wave guide material. Well, Evan Spiegel told us that he thinks that glass is going to be where it's at. Exactly. I think, oh, I guess that's it. I guess that's all the categories. That's all I have. Do you have any other questions about Orion?

Or if you, just by how we're explaining Orion, what do you think would be the more enjoyable experience between the two i mean i think that the little things often make for a better experience and the little things in my opinion are going to be how good it is at actually like tracking what you want to do with the input with it uh the field of view those things are things that like you kind of got to get the fit and finish before people actually want to put it on their face because if even if you had like really really good software if the input's bad you're not going to use it if you have really really good software but it only works here it's not going to be immersive

yep so i think that kind of stuff is the stuff that's eventually going to win out this isn't to say i mean i'm sure that snapchat is working on much more advanced versions of these that have like much wider field of view and all those different things um you know i'm they'll probably release something in the next year or so i'm i totally agree like as much as i want resolution to be so much better the field of view was like the field of view and literally wearing it on my face where it's not folding my ear in half yeah it's like the entire experience itself yeah so i have to like vote for the orion glasses on this um i would not be surprised if the eventual consumer version of

both of these look vastly vastly different totally because like the that chart of what the orion glasses looked like over the last couple years they showed us the first one was gigantic yeah and then within like a couple years it was down to something that actually is under 100 grams yeah i still really want to try orion because a lot of people were like it's absolutely the future it's incredible and I just don't get that from AR right now you have to look I think and maybe you'll agree with me on this you have to look at it in the most optimistic viewpoint possible to come to that conclusion and I think if you if you can see like how far it's come to get to that and how much they have to do and so small of a form factor and like do all the stuff that is super impressive but if you just took that pair

of glasses and went to like a friend of yours and said hey try this out they would be like this is why would i ever use these interesting i think uh and this is no shade to anyone that said the orion glasses were the future and amazing but i I think if you had tried the Snapchat ones first, you would have probably like, I don't really think that Orion glasses in particular, like the super special thing. Also remember it's, these were debuted as part of like a,

a briefing. Like people didn't just try these. They listened to executives talk about how good they are for an hour and then tried them. Like, like we do that with a lot of stuff. Yeah. And you know, sometimes we go to Hawaii for a week a week and uh and look at qualcomm chips um yeah

i have a free i have a free idea any developer can take this for an ar experience it's called anti-meditation and its goal is to do the exact opposite of what a meditative experience is supposed to do so the whole idea is like you have your glasses right and then i'm assuming if you have the glasses you are wearable out you've got the whoop you've got the ring in this universe you've got the the theranos chip that's like tracking your blood and all of these health metrics your uh your eight sleep mattress all of them on the the the lenses as like a permanent hud you've got like 60 health bars i know where you're going and the whole idea is you can constantly just look and see what's going on in your body and over the years your your your personal

like instinctive relationship about your own bodily innards will be disintegrated by just by the concept and eventually you'll be completely detached from all your inner thoughts, feelings, and urges. Isn't this just Brian Johnson? I was literally just about to say that. I was going to say, I'm pretty sure Brian Johnson goes through this every day.

So if you want to steal that idea, it's all yours. It's officially in the public domain. Speaking of Brian Johnson. Okay. So after this, uh, uh mark after the next ad break marquez is going to be talking to meta cto boz about the orion glasses uh etc so we'll cut to there soon but first ha you thought i was gonna say trivia just letting you guys know the books

palma 2 has just dropped let's go they! They added a phone! They didn't. That would have been great. It has a new processor. It has the fingerprint reader is built into the power button now. And it runs Android 13. And that's it. Did you say it didn't have a camera? That is a cheap version that's only launching in China.

But the official Books Palma 2 still has the exact same camera and the exact same resolution screen yes and the exact same everything and it's the exact same price people spend so much money like on like photo editing apps and like after effects filters and like all this stuff to make their photos look a type of way and that books palma camera just nails it in body bro excuse me that books palma photo document scanner it's such if you it's so dope i love that camera so much yeah i will have to get it i bring my books back tomorrow it's been a few weeks since i've dailyed it but man i gotta i gotta celebrate with my with my palmers out there yeah so we'll have to get a books books books books it's books but. Yeah. So we'll have to get a books,

books, books, books, books, but I think, I think we'll get one in the office and we'll test it out. And it's probably gonna be exactly the same as the first one, but at least you'll be able to buy them now because it was very difficult to buy the books. Because the number one books,

Palma influencer in the world just created a storm. You and David Pierce probably sold 80 of their uh of their market david i was first actually i think you actually i think that who me no david pierce yeah sorry he was first i think in it i don't know i think the dumb phone video is before that i don't think so they did it he mentioned it in a newsletter i think and was like oh i haven't tried this but it's kind of cool and then I shocked the world by David brought it up again. We'll do a deeper timeline dive. Yeah coming up, but okay until then let's take it to trivia Second question what is Boz's real name like is that really it yeah like his first name

i will give bonus points because ellis has an actual question but no i want the full name i'm throwing a bonus question just to keep you on your toes what's the bonus question i just told that was the bonus question now we need the real question yeah now you're getting the real that was just the bonus that was just me messing with you guys. So what is Baz's real name? Now, Ellis has a real question. I do have a real question. And what's hilarious is I didn't write it down because I did write down a question that sucked.

And then I thought of a better question while I was over here. Okay. Which is the oregano. Oregano. Oregano. The oregano. The original Macintosh,

aka the Macintosh 128K, had a lot of features that its competitors had, but it had one utility feature that would be repeated on the iMac G three. What was it? Can I have a hint? Cause that feels very broad. I'm trying to think of a hint. What would be a good hint? The feature.

I'll give you a hint when we get to the answers. A similar feature. I don't know. Ask me a question. Define a utility feature. Something that you can use. The computer. I don't know guys ask me a question define a utility feature something that you can use the computer i don't know like give me an adjacent like utility feature like another utility feature that the computer had this is kind of the one i mean it's the original macintosh it wasn't a very usable utility feature it's the feature here It's a design element. Wait.

Like, wait. That doesn't help at all. This is one of the iconic parts of this computer and the iMac G3. I have a guess. I have a guess also now. I had the iBook G4 clamshell. Yeah, the PowerBook. Yeah, the PowerBook.

That shipped with Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4. No, not the PowerBook. The iBook. The one that looked like a clam. It looked like the clear and had a handle and a handle built into it it was a laptop with a handle yeah iBook G4 G3 crazy who would ever put a handle on a computer we'll answer those questions after the break. You've always wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself.

You live for experience and lead by example. You want the most out of life and realize what you're looking for is already in you. This is for you. The Canadian Armed Forces. A message from the Government of Canada. All right, Baz. Thank you for the time. Yeah, of course. And for the expertise. Okay, so I'm holding a transparent version of the Orions, and these are fully functional,

like everything fits and works in these. That's right. And when they're transparent like this, I can see that there is a ton of stuff happening in here. What is the most challenging part of getting to this point from all the previous much larger versions you had? That's right. There's two parts to this that are hard. The first one is the displays. Just having them exist at all in any form factor is super hard. And obviously the challenges of the tightness. And then the second one is the thermals. I mean the reason it's as big as it is, and we worked hard to get it down, is how much technology is running in there is putting off heat and that will cause it to shut down. That's why the real version has magnesium. It's clear plastic when we use as a demo, but actually would shut down in about 30

minutes of use just because of the thermals. So these ones are actually magnesium. It's kind of very cool coated magnesium to allow more thermal dissipation. So actually these run at the limit to the battery life, about two to three hours of active use. And honestly, you cannot believe how much we have to put in here to cover eye tracking, you know, SLAM, obviously, the displays, all the wireless, all the audio, all the microphones. That's quite a bit in there. It is incredibly efficient.

I mean, you have the custom silicon. You're doing a lot of processing to turn the seven sensors on the outside into usable data, tracking the outside world, tracking the eyes. I notice there's only two sensors on the arms into usable data, tracking the outside world, tracking the eyes. I noticed there's only two sensors on the arms tracking the eyes. That's right. And that's it.

Yeah, we've got two sensors in the arms and then a glimpse of infrared light coming from the inside of the lens. And that's enough to track the eyes really effectively. And we've been so pleased that people have noticed that we've gotten, we think, to industry-leading level of eye tracking in this tiny form factor. That's obviously a tremendous feat, not just of hardware,

but of software as well. Yeah. So obviously these aren't going to be shipping to everyone. These are an internal prototype that was at some point considered maybe plausible to ship. When we started, we wanted to ship it externally. And actually, amazingly, the technology is working as well as we'd hoped it would back then. The cost ended up being much higher. So that's my question. So obviously there are pieces of this that cost a lot. It's low volume, of course, it's more expensive. But what does getting to a lower price actually look like for these? And what is a price that feels like a good target for potentially the first ever AR glasses that people actually get to use?

Yeah. So the major driver of the cost, 90% of the cost, is in the display architecture. And these are custom micro LEDs that we designed, developed, manufactured ourselves. You know, they're individually hundreds of thousands of nits in brightness. And they pipe through these waveguides, silicon carbide waveguides, which is a very cool, glad we got this with us, very cool material and a very challenging material to work with, like very hard. And there's not really a supply chain for growing silicon carbide crystals of this clarity

at this size and then manufacturing this stuff. And that was really what ended up being the thing that set us in the product path of making this an internal prototype that we're using to develop the software for future versions. There is some good news though, which is that other materials have some trade-offs that are tough, really tough to maintain the field of view that we have without super high index refraction materials like that. But other materials are much cheaper, much lighter. Like glass you're saying. Like glass, lithium niobate, high index refraction glass, like there's a lot of materials that are we can still do a lot of the same uh kind of holograms in space really cool virtual you know visual artifacts that you can manipulate um and ends up being potentially

cheaper smaller a little thinner um maybe even a little bit brighter so there are some trade-offs that are it's not all not all bad news, I mean, these are also super, super dense in just tech in general. And the fact that literally the magnesium on the outside is a heat sink for the components on the inside is a testament to how well integrated this is. Talk to me about how you decide about the future of these products and okay we have almost no supply chain now for silicon carbide but we think that this is the best option to at least give a shot what are your thoughts on like exploring other materials is this going to potentially be like opening a door for many other manufacturers to try silicon carbide and maybe that becomes a way forward in the future yeah i love this there's first of all we've always been multi-pathing this thing so like we

when you're building something this risky actually honestly you probably had as many failures as we had successes to get to this point yeah um you know we had a lot of technology paths that dead-ended but we had enough paths going in parallel that some of them made it through enough to make this whole product and so the same is true we're going to continue to pursue silicon carbide we're also pursuing lithium niobate and high index glass. And we're also looking at novel materials, actually, in research. We've actually run a very cool thing that I haven't told anyone about before. Took a large language model and trained it on material properties and have now identified a candidate set of materials that could have incredible optical properties and be much cheaper and lighter to manufacture.

Did you ask Orion for it? We just use Haymeta. That's right. Got it. Did you ask Orion for it? We just use Hey Meta. That's right. Got it. And so we've been working with FAIR on that. So we're pursuing every path we can.

And what is really exciting to me is with AI in particular, we see a lot of cool products between the Ray-Ban Metas that I'm wearing now and these Orion glasses that are all super valid. So what if I had AI? Do I need a huge display? If what I really want is to get my answers more efficiently, just visually back to me, then I can have a smaller field of view display, a smaller product, a cheaper product, and that's going to be fine. As far as what the price is

going to be, it's funny. I did have some of the folks on our research team who've been around a long time, in particular, our chief scientist, Michael Abrash, who's been through several generations of computing. And he reminded me that he paid modern equivalent of $25,000 or $30,000 for his first computer back in the 1980s. And that wasn't uncommon. And that would be what we're talking about as a retail price for something today. And so it's not outlandish. I do think the expectation that we have as savvy modern consumers is a lot higher than that. So we want to drive the prices down. It's hard for me to imagine full AR glasses coming in

for less than a cell phone, given that they literally have more than a cell phone's worth of technology in them. But I think there's a lot of products like these Ray-Ban Metas that I'm wearing now, that between that and this kind of full AR glasses that are pretty great, and then will hopefully come in at price points in between.

Yeah, it's interesting. Because I think a lot of people see this and this is super cool and this is futuristic but there is a potential like lineup of different products at different price points. I always I've been saying Google Glass is ahead of its time for so long because every time I see these I always remember Google Glass had some of this stuff even though it looked kind of weird but like I always picture walking through New York City with a little arrow in the corner of my head to tell me where to turn for the next subway stop. And the fact that that's actually now potentially with these tracked over the actual street, for example, in real time, just all these

examples pop into my head of things that this could do for regular people. Is there a killer app that you think is going to convince people that AR glasses are actually the future? Yeah, as they say in our industry, there's no bad ideas, just bad timing. And I think in the case of Google Glass, they didn't respect how much people care how they look. And I think it's one of the things we've tried to design. One of the reasons we're working with Luxottica on these glasses is to really respect that.

The killer use cases are, frankly, just, this is one of the reasons I love building this internal prototype. It's a fully working, you've used it, like the operating system works, like you can run apps, you can like get it in and out of the system pretty easily. A lot of our ideas of what was gonna be great have not been as great.

We talked about the idea, we used to always talk about, oh, we're gonna have a chess game between us. But chess is like a very fiddly game. Actually, if you and I wanted to summon a chess board, we would just summon a 2D panel between us and play it that way. Whereas a bunch of things that we thought maybe wouldn't be great have been great. So I don't want to put words in your mouth. For me, at least, video calling, which I was very skeptical. Why would I want a video call from my glasses? I actually

found it very compelling. I was like, oh, this is cool. I'm hands-free. I could be animated to the other party via a codec avatar. And I'm just like, yeah, casually doing whatever I'm doing and taking a video call. I would probably do more video calls if that was a technology that I had. We never would have guessed that before we built and used the prototype. So it's still super early.

I don't think we've identified the killer app by any means. But I do think, you know, watching video in downtime, things that I would normally kind of take my phone out of my pocket to do, but like, eh, like it's inconvenient. I think those things, we underestimate the degree of friction that little movement creates.

That's what we've seen with the Ray-Ban Metas with cameras. That little bit of friction, you have a great camera in your pocket, but that little bit of friction is enough for me to miss a picture with my kid or to not want to take my camera out and disintermediate myself from the experience. So there's a bunch of things that we're going to learn

just from having this prototype internally and being able to use it and play with it. Yeah, that's my always huge question is like, I feel like I'm so focused on today's gadgets that I have a hard time picturing a future without smartphones. I feel like we'll always just have a thing that we just carry. But to your point, there are little things like that where it feels like that is something

that it actually does better than smartphones, which is cool. I've also been wearing something this entire video that i don't know if anyone's noticed which is this wristband on my wrist which is a crazy tech in itself that it's looking at electrical impulses inside my arm to determine which fingers are touching and and i've heard you guys describe this as a very high ceiling input that's right with potential amazing future stuff can you talk about that yeah so this is just the beginning today you're using it to detect taps and touches and it's nice that you can have your hands completely at your rest which is especially if you're walking you don't want to walk with your hands out in front of you um yeah and but over time we think we can do a lot more with it for

example internally we have a demo with just with that wristband i can detect handwriting. And so I can do text entry just by handwriting in my pocket. I can't believe that. Okay. So you're, you're in space, not even holding a pen. No, just in your, just at rest. And you're just at rest and you're just writing things in air and it can detect based on the electrical impulses moving through my arm, roughly the shapes that I'm drawing in the air and then create words from that. That's right. And that's amazing. Yeah. So words from that. That's right. That's amazing. Yeah, so we have that.

And if you had one on each wrist, for example, if there was a watch in your other hand that had the same kind of EMG technology built into it, you could also type at rest, and it could absolutely detect what you were typing with very, very high accuracy. Wow. And so we think there's a lot of upside to this kind of thing. And we've also discovered, this is, again, the value of building prototypes and putting them into the world, is people have really enjoyed the haptics. You have a little haptic feedback, so you actually have a sense of what you're doing, how you're interacting with the system, which we think we can develop a lot more.

Over time, this also should be a system that we can develop to learn you so well that over time you actually don't have to really do the full A handwriting. You just kind of do the gesture that you and the machine have co-evolved to learn means A to you. Oh wow. So the machine starts to learn me after a while and becomes more fine-tuned to my own inputs. Absolutely. Everyone's computer is a little bit more fine-tuned towards them. That's right.

Which is true about computing in general. That's, yeah, really interesting stuff. We have to solve these problems that frankly our industry hasn't had to solve in a while because ever since Xerox PARC and Stanford Research Institute gave us the keyboard and mouse, we've had these direct manipulation interfaces. It's true that we replaced the mouse with touchscreens, but it's still very direct manipulation. And you're just not going to have those things walking around with your AR glasses.

So what are we going to do? And this is, I think, the beginnings of a gesture-based kind of language that you're going to have to interact with machines. So I guess the big question is, do you actually foresee this as a next compute platform after the smartphone? Or does this sort of, because there is a compute puck separately as of right now, there's still a ton of interplay between these and something I'm carrying. Do you think there is a future where we aren't carrying anything we're wearing our full-time like daily computer yeah i mean i don't want to put words in your mouth i think this is a device that i when i

put it on a few months ago and the software was running i think it was the first time i've been able to imagine not having a cell phone like oh like this actually it does the things that i need to get done and it does them pretty well. I want to be clear, like sometimes technologies replace other technologies. More often they find new avenues. Like I still use a laptop and I still use a cell phone. Yeah. And like I use them both together. It's not a problem. Yeah. And so I think there's a, for the foreseeable future, even when these things exist, they're probably going to exist in conjunction with cell phones. Because the tech has a long way to go still. It's a two-hour battery life. It's an expensive piece of hardware. There's a lot between now and that as a real future people can imagine.

That's right. But if you extrapolate far ahead enough with the lines of sight you have in a lot of these technologies, it feels real, maybe. I think that's right. And I think to really put a thought in your head head looking far into the future Imagine a world where you have a universal interface with this neural interface and you have a universal kind of display with your glasses on Now, how do you design everything differently cars homes? So your home like the famous problem everyone's home like every microwave is completely inscrutable No one knows how to work any other microwave. Like the systems are all different.

Shower controls. Like everything, all terrible. Why would you need that? If you had, well, shower, probably for now, let's keep using those controls conventionally. But for the microwave, for the kitchen at least, yeah, you don't need everything to have a clock and a display. You have a permanent display.

You don't need to have a bunch of buttons on it. You have a permanent ability to manipulate things. And so I think it starts to get to the point where it doesn't just have an impact on whether we're carrying a cell phone or not. It starts to have an impact on how other physical goods are designed and built. Not to mention obviating the need for some physical goods entirely. If we all had our glasses on, do I need to dedicate an entire wall of my house to a big tv tv yeah that's fair yeah this is the far out like future stuff that i start to picture when you see how far these prototypes have come and you try to continue fast forwarding and see how

how good it can actually get um well i'm gonna be thinking a lot about this good this is one of the most interesting pieces of tech in that realm that i've seen even though i can't buy it and use it and probably won't be able to use it for a while. Really cool stuff. So thanks for walking me through it. Thanks for having me. Appreciate the time. Cheers. Welcome back. That was a great interview, wasn't it? You probably didn't know this, but Andrew and I were like three feet away that whole time. Just couldn't see us because that's how cameras work. But yeah, thank you, Boz, for coming on the show and doing a fun little interview with us thank you united airlines for flying us to california and

back and uh thank you to my mother thank you thank you 26 years ago thank you mom for uh believing me when i was like i work at a youtube channel now my mom does not know what that means so thank you for letting me do it anyway anyway right on trivia dude dude okay quick update on the scores marquez with 20 andrew leading the pack 23 david carrying the one 22 wow i guess in that case Andrew's carrying the one anyway question one what was the previous

version of Apple's magic mouse called and I guess like it's not really the previous version it was just the mouse before but like I don't know how else to phrase that but the one before the but I don't know how else to phrase that. But the one before the magic mouse, what was that called? I'm either right or embarrassingly wrong.

I really hope you're right because the name is hilarious. It's hilarious, then I'm wrong. And flip and read. What do you got? The Apple Track Mouse. Track Mouse? No. I wrote the got? The Apple track mouse. Track mouse? No. I wrote the mighty mouse.

The mighty mouse. Correct. Oh, is it right? Yeah, it was the mighty mouse. That's also the name of like a character, right? Okay. Mighty mouse. All right.

That mouse is awesome, by the way. Yes, correct. The Apple one? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I was talking about the cartoon. No. That mouse was awesome?

It was not awesome. I thought it was clear. It was. Oh, yeah. There was a about the cartoon no that mouse was awesome it was not awesome i thought it was clear it was oh yeah there was no there was i did it was a clear one yeah i did like this mouse i loved just side scrolling on a timeline which now that's that's like when marquez likes his mx master although this is his trackpad he doesn't even do that but next master okay my bonus question. What is Boz's real name? Bosley. The hair loss medication. Oh, his name is Boston. Correct! The band?

No. Boss Hoss. I know this because when Marques said we were talking to him i was like isn't there also a jaws or a waz yeah there are and there are both of them and there's also boz so i had to look up correct flip him and read what do you got andrew bosworth andrew bosworth why did you guys what correct how did you about one spell to correct how did you know that why did you know that? Why did you know that? I didn't know that either.

Did you guys both look it up? No, just no executive names. I looked it up. Like a normal person. When we went to Meta. Evan Spiegel, Eric Schmidt, Andrew Bosworth. Do you know all of the C-suite executives at every major tech company? Yes.

Cool. They're all named Billy. Ellis, next question question number two the original macintosh had one design element utility feature that i think it was kind of iconic for and also was repeated on the imac g3 what am i talking about can we please have a hint of some kind if i'm, he gave a hint before. I did give a hint before. Do you want another hint?

Yes, please. It's on Apple devices. No, it's only on these two as far as I'm aware. Are they on Apple devices? It's on one other product that I know of. What? You want another hint? It's a thing you can hold.

I drew it. Flip them and read. what do you got oh david what is this right what is that is that a tongue this is a handle no it was a keyboard yeah um i don't know if this is right is it a handle it is a. When you said it has a handle, Ellis went, hmm, it has a handle. And then I looked dead into that camera and said, who would ever put a handle on a computer? How did I not pick up on that?

Yeah. Yeah, I booked G3 also had a handle. And that is the one other thing that he not has a handle. And the original Macintosh. And I don't know the specifics on this, but I'm pretty sure it was actually sort of a design fight in the original Apple, with the original Macintosh, whether or not to put a handle on it.

Because this computer's not light. It's not portable. It doesn't have a battery. Ostensibly, you would never take it from place to place. But it was just really important in the design language to make it feel like a real tool like something that that could be used uh in that way if you needed to yeah have you seen halt and catch fire the show i have not handles and computers are very important part of that show

just saying spoiler um no not really but you should watch it. It's very good. It's one of my all-time favorite TV shows. Okay. What is it called? Halt and Catch Fire. It's about the 80s computer revolution. It has Lee Pace in it. It's very good. Four seasons.

Each season gets better. Extremely good. Anyway, thank you for listening to this episode of the Waveform Podcast. It has been a blast. I always love when I get to sit at the big boy table with you guys i'm about to get kicked back into my little crevice where i'm forced to produce this show from but but until then thank you for listening make sure to like and subscribe follow us on apple podcast and spotify subscribe to us on YouTube. Pocket Casts. Pocket Casts. Exists. I've heard it's good.

I love it. I use it. It's fine. It's fine. Listen to us in your Tesla. Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Roven. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network group, and our intro-outro music is produced by Vane.

So. Bingo So Bingo!